NCAA President calls for new tier of Division I where schools can pay athletes

[JacksFan40]

Not sure if this is appropriate for the regular FCS sub, but it will most definitely impact the FCS so I put it here. Move it if it is not appropriate.

https://apnews.com/article/ncaa-baker-nil-c26542c528df277385fea7167026dbe6

LAS VEGAS (AP) — NCAA President Charlie Baker announced Tuesday that he wants the organization to create a new tier of Division I athletics where schools with the most resources can offer unlimited educational benefits, enter into name, image and likeness partnerships with athletes and directly pay them through a trust fund.

In a letter sent to more than 350 Division I schools, Baker said the disparity in resources between the wealthiest schools in the Football Bowl Subdivision and other DI members — along with the hundreds of Division II and III schools — is creating “a new series of challenges.”

Division I is currently divided into the FBS and FCS (Football Championship Subdivision). Baker’s proposal is aimed at creating a new subdivision where schools in the so-called Power Five conferences — the Big Ten, Southeastern Conference, Big 12, Atlantic Coast Conference and Pac-12 — can operate.

Baker noted that athletic budgets in Division I range from $5 million and $250 million annually, with 59 schools spending over $100 million annually and another 32 spending over $50 million. He said 259 Division I schools, however, spend less than $50 million on their athletic programs.

He said schools in a new tier of Division I should be allowed, while staying compliant with Title IX, to “invest at least $30,000 per year into an enhanced educational trust fund for at least half of the institution’s eligible student-athletes.”

[Mocdaddy]

Unlimited rosters, coaching positions and a guaranteed payroll for players. What next?

[Bisonator]

How would this stop the poaching that's happening now?

[The Yo Show]

This will separate P5 from G5 too

[The Yo Show]

Well guys, college football as we knew it is now dead.

[UNAPride]

This will separate P5 from G5 too

Absolutely. It basically makes FCS the new D2 for football, except now all of our school's other programs will be playing for championships against this new subdivision's paid players. I mean, they already do, but it will be more organized and not just for the top players (with today's NIL reality) but 50% of players at each school. It will also have to include at least 50% of that for women's players for Title IV purposes.

From this article:

The new subdivision will remain under the umbrella of the NCAA, and its members will continue to compete for NCAA championships with others in Division I. Under the proposal, the NCAA maintains oversight of the existing national championship model across all Division I sports, except FBS football, which continues to operate under the rubric of the College Football Playoff, Baker writes in the letter.

Schools in the new subdivision would also gain control of decision-making around scholarship limits and countable coaches, the NCAA's way of handing major conference programs the freedom to increase the limits or do away with them altogether.

The model “gives the educational institutions with the most visibility, the most financial resources and the biggest brands an opportunity to choose to operate with a different set of rules that more accurately reflect their scale and their operating model,” he writes.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-proposing-new-college-athletics-subdivision-rooted-in-direct-athlete-compensation-145051537.html

[Franks Tanks]

Well guys, college football as we knew it is now dead.

It’s already toast. The unlimited transfers and NIL is unsustainable. Every pro sports league has much tougher rules on free agency and salary caps, but this is the way of the NCAA allowing the big boys to have what they want under the ncaa umbrella.

[Franks Tanks]

How would this stop the poaching that's happening now?

It will allow the “big boys” to agree upon whatever rules they want. Which may or may not include transfer restrictions from their division or lower divisions.

[JacksFan40]

It’s already toast. The unlimited transfers and NIL is unsustainable. Every pro sports league has much tougher rules on free agency and salary caps, but this is the way of the NCAA allowing the big boys to have what they want under the ncaa umbrella.
Not much the NCAA can do, SCOTUS has defanged them and rendered them useless. Unless the NCAA gets some sort of antitrust exemption or Congress intervenes, this will continue with no restrictions.

[Franks Tanks]

Not much the NCAA can do, SCOTUS has defanged them and rendered them useless. Unless the NCAA gets some sort of antitrust exemption or Congress intervenes, this will continue with no restrictions.

Agree, I see this as a way for the schools playing in this arena to mutually agree to a set of fair play rules. The days of the NCAA passing rules that apply Ohio State and Oberlin are over. The tail has been wagging the dog these last few years anyway so I like the transparency here. To me it’s the NCAA saying” guys get together and do what you want, we don’t know how to handle this anymore.”

[ElCid]

Well guys, college football as we knew it is now dead.

Yup. You knew they would eventually ruin it. They will pay the price one day. Part of the allure of college football was a sense of loyalty to one's school or a school they have some affinity for. This will fade. People don't give loyalty to paid employees in the same way. The big boys (the upper 2/3s of P5) won't feel it as much, but anyone else who plays this new pseudo-professional game will. As a percent of population, college football has lost ground already. This will chip away a bit more. Only the diehards will remain steadfast. They just couldn't leave well enough alone. Luckily I don't believe my college will succumb to most of this due to our size and desires, but if they somehow played this game I would find other interests to follow in a heartbeat. I can barely stand to watch most FBS games as it is. I'm sure others are tuning out as well.

[FUBeAR]

Next Step - Why should "we" lose our best Players to the NFL?

We've already acknowledged that the Players are our "moneymakers."

Why the heck should we force them to leave and go make money for someone else after only 3-5 years when they are in the prime of their Playing days?

These rules don't make sense.

Let 'em stay as long as they want....and we keep payin' 'em as long as they are makin' that kwan for us. Those fat-cat NFL owners can go pound sand, I've got an Athletic Department / University to run and multi-multi-million $ salaries to pay ... like my own!!!



Didn't USC's QB already say if he's not #1 in draft, he's staying @ USC because he can make more money there? Why make that a limited time opportunity?


As Carlton says .... "Mark FUBeAR's words!!" ... but in 1st person possessive ... and referring to himself, not to FUBeAR.

It's Comin'

[The Yo Show]

FuBear, if this does pass (I suspect it will) you will need to update your signature

[FUBeAR]

FuBear, if this does pass (I suspect it will) you will need to update your signature
Not until they update the manual to remove the absolute hypocrisy of their existence

[bonarae]

Another telltale sign that the Ivies may be going NESCAC-style in football. xsighx

[MUHAWKS]

who can best bottom line all the BS and put into words how this affects FCS, what landscape will be and what could potentially happen.

[CHIP72]

Next Step - Why should "we" lose our best Players to the NFL?

We've already acknowledged that the Players are our "moneymakers."

Why the heck should we force them to leave and go make money for someone else after only 3-5 years when they are in the prime of their Playing days?

These rules don't make sense.

Let 'em stay as long as they want....and we keep payin' 'em as long as they are makin' that kwan for us. Those fat-cat NFL owners can go pound sand, I've got an Athletic Department / University to run and multi-multi-million $ salaries to pay ... like my own!!!



Didn't USC's QB already say if he's not #1 in draft, he's staying @ USC because he can make more money there? Why make that a limited time opportunity?

As Carlton says .... "Mark FUBeAR's words!!" ... but in 1st person possessive ... and referring to himself, not to FUBeAR.

It's Comin'

I have a feeling if that comes to pass, both the schools/teams left out of the college super conference and the NFL may team up and, among other things, tell Congress to look closely at the language in the Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961, a federal law:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title15/chapter32&edition=prelim



§1293. Intercollegiate and interscholastic football contest limitations

The first sentence of section 1291 of this title shall not apply to any joint agreement described in such section which permits the telecasting of all or a substantial part of any professional football game on any Friday after six o'clock postmeridian or on any Saturday during the period beginning on the second Friday in September and ending on the second Saturday in December in any year from any telecasting station located within seventy-five miles of the game site of any intercollegiate or interscholastic football contest scheduled to be played on such a date if—

(1) such intercollegiate football contest is between institutions of higher learning both of which confer degrees upon students following completion of sufficient credit hours to equal a four-year course, or

(2) in the case of an interscholastic football contest, such contest is between secondary schools, both of which are accredited or certified under the laws of the State or States in which they are situated and offer courses continuing through the twelfth grade of the standard school curriculum, or the equivalent, and

(3) such intercollegiate or interscholastic football contest and such game site were announced through publication in a newspaper of general circulation prior to August 1 of such year as being regularly scheduled for such day and place.



The question would become which part of the clause is more important, the "professional football" part or the "intercollegiate football contest is between institutions of higher learning" part. If college players getting paid over the table are classified by the courts to be professional, and that supersedes the intercollegiate football part, then those "college super conference" teams/schools could be subject to the regulations in Section 1293, which restrict the TV broadcasts of pro football games on Friday nights and Saturdays from mid-September to mid-December. This would force the college super conference teams to play on days besides Friday nights and Saturdays.

Another hammer the NFL could use if it had to would be to challenge in court the rule that prohibits players who are less than 3 years out of high school from playing in the NFL. Eliminating that rule would hurt the NFL, but it would hurt college football, especially the college super conference, even more.

Before the NFL would want to do anything though, I suspect various (jilted) schools not included in the college super conference would sue that conference and its members over its quasi-professional setup, making the argument the college super conference uses professional players and should be subject to different rules (such as the Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961) than "regular" college football. There's a good chance this won't end well for DI-A/FBS football as a whole for various reasons.

[bonarae]

Opinion piece from Dennis Dodd:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/with-new-college-football-subdivision-proposal-ncaa-finally-admits-its-amateurism-model-is-dead/

Meanwhile...
The question would become which part of the clause is more important, the "professional football" part or the "intercollegiate football contest is between institutions of higher learning" part. If college players getting paid over the table are classified by the courts to be professional, and that supersedes the intercollegiate football part, then those "college super conference" teams/schools could be subject to the regulations in Section 1293, which restrict the TV broadcasts of pro football games on Friday nights and Saturdays from mid-September to mid-December. This would force the college super conference teams to play on days besides Friday nights and Saturdays.

Another hammer the NFL could use if it had to would be to challenge in court the rule that prohibits players who are less than 3 years out of high school from playing in the NFL. Eliminating that rule would hurt the NFL, but it would hurt college football, especially the college super conference, even more.

This is the "point of no return" for college football in general. I'm afraid the "marginalized" among the schools (i.e., FCS, D-II, D-III, NAIA) will probably fold up athletics altogether in the coming years; they "might not compete" anymore... xsighx

[OhioHen]

The question would become which part of the clause is more important, the "professional football" part or the "intercollegiate football contest is between institutions of higher learning" part. If college players getting paid over the table are classified by the courts to be professional, and that supersedes the intercollegiate football part, then those "college super conference" teams/schools could be subject to the regulations in Section 1293, which restrict the TV broadcasts of pro football games on Friday nights and Saturdays from mid-September to mid-December. This would force the college super conference teams to play on days besides Friday nights and Saturdays.

Let the "haves" play on weeknights! Then we get more Saturday football from the guys who are at least pretending to be in college to work toward a degree.

[JacksFan40]

The question would become which part of the clause is more important, the "professional football" part or the "intercollegiate football contest is between institutions of higher learning" part. If college players getting paid over the table are classified by the courts to be professional, and that supersedes the intercollegiate football part, then those "college super conference" teams/schools could be subject to the regulations in Section 1293, which restrict the TV broadcasts of pro football games on Friday nights and Saturdays from mid-September to mid-December. This would force the college super conference teams to play on days besides Friday nights and Saturdays.

Another hammer the NFL could use if it had to would be to challenge in court the rule that prohibits players who are less than 3 years out of high school from playing in the NFL. Eliminating that rule would hurt the NFL, but it would hurt college football, especially the college super conference, even more.

Before the NFL would want to do anything though, I suspect various (jilted) schools not included in the college super conference would sue that conference and its members over its quasi-professional setup, making the argument the college super conference uses professional players and should be subject to different rules (such as the Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961) than "regular" college football. There's a good chance this won't end well for DI-A/FBS football as a whole for various reasons.
Challenging the NFL would kill the CFB super league instantly. The NFL still vastly outperforms CFB in ratings, and would decimate them head to head.

I don’t see a CFB super league lasting very long, no way does it not end up in direct competition with the NFL. The NFL won’t be thrilled if CFB begins messing with their talent pool by paying players to stay longer.

[caribbeanhen]

Another telltale sign that the Ivies may be going NESCAC-style in football. xsighx

Just as sad as not participating in the playoffs

[caribbeanhen]

The Quasi pro college football teams will become like the ABA of the 70s and eventually merge with the NFL

The NBA took flight when Julius Erving brought his high flying act to the city of brotherly love in the Bi Centennial year of 1976

history will be repeated only this time “Dr J” will be the Eagles new QB

ETA 2042

[Franks Tanks]

Opinion piece from Dennis Dodd:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/with-new-college-football-subdivision-proposal-ncaa-finally-admits-its-amateurism-model-is-dead/

Meanwhile...

This is the "point of no return" for college football in general. I'm afraid the "marginalized" among the schools (i.e., FCS, D-II, D-III, NAIA) will probably fold up athletics altogether in the coming years; they "might not compete" anymore... xsighx

I don’t see this changing anything massively for the FCS on down. None of us make money on athletics (perhaps the Dakota or Montana schools turn a profit?). We don’t compete with the power 5, we compete amongst one another. The reason each schools finds value in competing in FCS or D3 or whatever is not going to change because Oklahoma and Georgia are paying players.

The G5 with delusions of joining the elite tier will be most impacted.

[Go...gate]

Another telltale sign that the Ivies may be going NESCAC-style in football. xsighx

They are getting ever closer to that now.

[WestCoastAggie]

I don’t see this changing anything massively for the FCS on down. None of us make money on athletics (perhaps the Dakota or Montana schools turn a profit?). We don’t compete with the power 5, we compete amongst one another. The reason each schools finds value in competing in FCS or D3 or whatever is not going to change because Oklahoma and Georgia are paying players.

The G5 with delusions of joining the elite tier will be most impacted.

I can see the FBS/FCS money games going away. That new "CFP" subdivision will mostly schedule the old g5/FBS teams and won't schedule old FCS teams.

[Son of Eli]

Another telltale sign that the Ivies may be going NESCAC-style in football. xsighx


Isn’t it possible that Division I will remain subdivided in two, with the Power Five being the new “IA” and the Group of 5 and FCS being the new “IAA”? I don’t see how having three Division I subdivisions is feasible. Some of the weaker FCS conferences might get demoted in the process (ex. pioneer) but the Ivy League is not a weak FCS conference .

[ElCid]

Isn’t it possible that Division I will remain subdivided in two, with the Power Five being the new “IA” and the Group of 5 and FCS being the new “IAA”? I don’t see how having three Division I subdivisions is feasible. Some of the weaker FCS conferences might get demoted in the process (ex. pioneer) but the Ivy League is not a weak FCS conference .

There are 133 FBS and 128 FCS this year. That includes 69 P5 and 64 G5. As a comparison, in 1986, pretty much after all the dust finally settled after the split, there were 110 FBS with no distinction between conferences and 87 FCS.

So there are basically 64 more D1 teams now. It's obvious that the P5 of today wanted to keep the lesser teams from cashing in at their expense and the P5 delineation was created/promoted. I'm sure they will continue to push for preeminence so all but the very best G5 programs in worthy markets will be brought on board in their new world. I could see maybe 75-80 P5 teams which would leave about 55 G5 out in the cold. The FCS could split again if the requirement for a new tier had a minimum scholly requirement, in addition to the max. Those current FCS not meeting it would become D1-light. Those meeting it would be D1 and include most of current G5 and a little over half of current FCS. The P5 would not be any part of the equation. Just spitballing.

[DFW HOYA]

Isn’t it possible that Division I will remain subdivided in two, with the Power Five being the new “IA” and the Group of 5 and FCS being the new “IAA”? I don’t see how having three Division I subdivisions is feasible. Some of the weaker FCS conferences might get demoted in the process (ex. pioneer) but the Ivy League is not a weak FCS conference .

The Pioneer has no place to go. That's why it's where it is.

[ngineer]

Well guys, college football as we knew it is now dead.

Yep, thought it was dying for years. I don't think I watched a complete FBS game this year. A number of my friends feel the same. The sense that I am not watching students playing football, but mercenaries in the NFL minor league. NCAA close up shop. You are irrelevant.

[ElCid]

Yep, thought it was dying for years. I don't think I watched a complete FBS game this year. A number of my friends feel the same. The sense that I am not watching students playing football, but mercenaries in the NFL minor league. NCAA close up shop. You are irrelevant.

^^^
This, big time. It's just not enjoyable anymore. I watched a few FBS games with my dad for very specific games, but nothing like we used to. I watched FCS games ten times more at least. It isn't the same and they don't realize how they will hurt the sport and the "student" athletes in the end. These people simply do not understand the allure of amateur competition. It's why I stopped watching nearly all of the Olympics a long time ago as well.

[bonarae]

Where do you think we find the best amateur competitions? Outside of the US, that's for sure. xsmhx xsighx

[ElCid]

Where do you think we find the best amateur competitions? Outside of the US, that's for sure. xsmhx xsighx

I suppose I'm a little surprised it took so long for them to destroy the game. The NCAA had a tight grip that was hard to loosen, but once it did, it started falling apart. Now they are nothing but puppets of the money makers.

[Preferred Walk-On]

The problem seems to be pretty simple (at least to the feeble-minded like myself): You can have NIL or you can have the transfer portal...you cannot have both.

[Uncle Rico]

The problem seems to be pretty simple (at least to the feeble-minded like myself): You can have NIL or you can have the transfer portal...you cannot have both.The transfer portal ruined college athletics. There needs to be some kind of consequence for backing out of a letter of intent. I thought they had it right when you had to sit a year after transferring.

Sent from my motorola one 5G UW using Tapatalk

[Redbird 4th & short]

Have to wonder if theyve even thought thru injuries. Currently, they are treated under Health Insurance coverage plans. Once you pay the student-athlete, they become employees. As employees, if you are injured on the job, it is considered a work comp claim. The biggest difference between a health insurance claim and a work comp claims is this:

- Health claims are covered based on "date of service"
- WC claims are covered based on "date of injury"

Which further means they are covered for life for each and every injury they incurred while playing football as an employee of the university. Most players have a couple nagging injuries, if not more, by the time they are done playing football in particular .. but any sport, think gymnastics even with foot problems. And again work comp claims are covered for the life of the injury based on the date of injury, not date of service. Think concussions, back/neck injuries, blown out knees/shoulders/ankles that never quite heal right. And you don't just cover medical/rehab treatment, you also cover lost wages .. the latter of which is technically just the 4+ years of college in theory. But the medical/rehab is for life unless a settlement is reached.

Now I'm sure they will try to wiggle out of that, but they will need Work Comp coverage for any student-athlete they employe and pay. Football in particular, but all sports, are considered an excluded class by most insurers. So you have to go to specialty markets to get this covered or self insure. This will be the deal breaker as noone outside of the top P5 programs could ever come close to affording this. Right now, they have health insurance covering this while they are in college only. And if they leave college early due to injury, the coverage stops there because it is date of service while they are in the plan only.

[ElCid]

Have to wonder if theyve even thought thru injuries. Currently, they are treated under Health Insurance coverage plans. Once you pay the student-athlete, they become employees. As employees, if you are injured on the job, it is considered a work comp claim. The biggest difference between a health insurance claim and a work comp claims is this:

- Health claims are covered based on "date of service"
- WC claims are covered based on "date of injury"

Which further means they are covered for life for each and every injury they incurred while playing football as an employee of the university. Most players have a couple nagging injuries, if not more, by the time they are done playing football in particular .. but any sport, think gymnastics even with foot problems. And again work comp claims are covered for the life of the injury based on the date of injury, not date of service. Think concussions, back/neck injuries, blown out knees/shoulders/ankles that never quite heal right. And you don't just cover medical/rehab treatment, you also cover lost wages .. the latter of which is technically just the 4+ years of college in theory. But the medical/rehab is for life unless a settlement is reached.

Now I'm sure they will try to wiggle out of that, but they will need Work Comp coverage for any student-athlete they employe and pay. Football in particular, but all sports, are considered an excluded class by most insurers. So you have to go to specialty markets to get this covered or self insure. This will be the deal breaker as noone outside of the top P5 programs could ever come close to affording this. Right now, they have health insurance covering this while they are in college only. And if they leave college early due to injury, the coverage stops there because it is date of service while they are in the plan only.

Oh what web they have wove.

Unintended consequences galore in their new world. One can only hope they will choke on it.

[Milktruck74]

Have to wonder if theyve even thought thru injuries. Currently, they are treated under Health Insurance coverage plans. Once you pay the student-athlete, they become employees. As employees, if you are injured on the job, it is considered a work comp claim. The biggest difference between a health insurance claim and a work comp claims is this:

- Health claims are covered based on "date of service"
- WC claims are covered based on "date of injury"

Which further means they are covered for life for each and every injury they incurred while playing football as an employee of the university. Most players have a couple nagging injuries, if not more, by the time they are done playing football in particular .. but any sport, think gymnastics even with foot problems. And again work comp claims are covered for the life of the injury based on the date of injury, not date of service. Think concussions, back/neck injuries, blown out knees/shoulders/ankles that never quite heal right. And you don't just cover medical/rehab treatment, you also cover lost wages .. the latter of which is technically just the 4+ years of college in theory. But the medical/rehab is for life unless a settlement is reached.

Now I'm sure they will try to wiggle out of that, but they will need Work Comp coverage for any student-athlete they employe and pay. Football in particular, but all sports, are considered an excluded class by most insurers. So you have to go to specialty markets to get this covered or self insure. This will be the deal breaker as noone outside of the top P5 programs could ever come close to affording this. Right now, they have health insurance covering this while they are in college only. And if they leave college early due to injury, the coverage stops there because it is date of service while they are in the plan only.


Interestingly enough, some of my fathers old NFL teammates are using a California based lawyer (because that is one of the highest payout states) to file workmans comp claims that are from the late 70s and early 80s. Interesting thing about the NFL is you actually pay taxes and comp for the state that weeks game is played in...meaning you actually can file Workmans comp insurance anywhere you played (2 of my pops teams were in CA, but his major injury was in MD...doesn't matter since he played in CA that season a few times). That is another thing, as an athlete, you are considered an entertainer and therefore taxed based on the performance location...not homebase or where you practice (except home games).As an entertainer, you practice for free, and get paid for the show. So, now the school must figure out all the various tax implications for each and every state they have athletic competitions in. Not just for FB but for every sport.

[wapiti]

I had idea today to help balance the effect of NIL.
I am ok with college athletes earning money for Name Image and likeness.

I suggest when the NIL hits a certain dollar amount, or a % of attending said school, then that athlete no longer qualifies for a scholarship.

If a athlete earns 100 grand in NIL and cost to attend school is 50 grand, then scholarship is pulled.

There would be several question to be investigated into with this idea. Such as how will it effect the # of scholarships available? Number of players on a team?

[unknown-swac]

The transfer portal ruined college athletics. There needs to be some kind of consequence for backing out of a letter of intent. I thought they had it right when you had to sit a year after transferring.

Sent from my motorola one 5G UW using Tapatalk

Kids should not be forced to sit out just because fans want winning teams.

[Uncle Rico]

Kids should not be forced to sit out just because fans want winning teams.Should they be required to reimburse the University for moneys spent on them? A national letter of intent is a contact between the athlete and the University. There should be some kind of penalty for defaulting on the deal.

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[ElCid]

I had idea today to help balance the effect of NIL.
I am ok with college athletes earning money for Name Image and likeness.

I suggest when the NIL hits a certain dollar amount, or a % of attending said school, then that athlete no longer qualifies for a scholarship.

If a athlete earns 100 grand in NIL and cost to attend school is 50 grand, then scholarship is pulled.

There would be several question to be investigated into with this idea. Such as how will it effect the # of scholarships available? Number of players on a team?

How about scholarships are only reserved for actual amateurs, meaning ZERO outside earnings, NIL, etc. That sounds good to me. A student can decide which avenue they want to pursue. You get a scholarship (a form of pay), or you go it on your own and earn money and pay for school. What a concept. That would nip this madness in the bud.

[Uncle Rico]

How about scholarships are only reserved for actual amateurs, meaning ZERO outside earnings, NIL, etc. That sounds good to me. A student can decide which avenue they want to pursue. You get a scholarship (a form of pay), or you go it on your own and earn money and pay for school. What a concept. That would nip this madness in the bud.I'd be fine with that.

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[JacksFan40]

Should they be required to reimburse the University for moneys spent on them? A national letter of intent is a contact between the athlete and the University. There should be some kind of penalty for defaulting on the deal.

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Do it like the service academies where if they can leave within their first two years with no consequences, but after that are required to pay back tuition and all other expenses covered.

[JacksFan40]

How about scholarships are only reserved for actual amateurs, meaning ZERO outside earnings, NIL, etc. That sounds good to me. A student can decide which avenue they want to pursue. You get a scholarship (a form of pay), or you go it on your own and earn money and pay for school. What a concept. That would nip this madness in the bud.
Paying players but not providing scholarship would be extremely interesting to see. Lots of these big universities have ridiculously high tuition, and so it’s not like the university was profiting off of free labor, some four year degrees can cost upwards of $200k even at public universities, let alone what it costs at the private ones. How many athletes will make enough to cover that?

[ElCid]

Paying players but not providing scholarship would be extremely interesting to see. Lots of these big universities have ridiculously high tuition, and so it’s not like the university was profiting off of free labor, some four year degrees can cost upwards of $200k even at public universities, let alone what it costs at the private ones. How many athletes will make enough to cover that?

But that's the point. They are getting a HUGE pay by being on scholarship. Who makes $50K, after taxes using your example while 18-21? Very, very few in this world. But scholarship AND pay? Really? I know this doesn't speak to non scholarship players, but will that even matter soon? Want to pay em? Subtract out the cost of attendance for those on scholarship. The entire pay thing is ridiculous. Will other activities require a piece of the action? How about the cheerleaders, the band, etc. They are all part of the experience.

The backlash from those who currently support football, may make this path a self defeating one. Let's say a guy who worked each and every summer to earn enough for school, gets charged X in student fees of which a good chunk goes to support athletics and football. He has to decide whether to go to the game or just do something else. He looks at Joe stud who is on a full ride and getting paid to boot. Think he will be a diehard fan? Part of the support given by students and eventually as alumni (Donors) is built of respect. You won't get much respect for players living the high life because they are flush with money and jumping from school to school for the highest bidder, while the average Joe struggles. Just how I see it. Getting a scholarship is one thing and easily deserving of admiration. The rest is just fodder for eventual distain and providing support, whether that is attendance or giving, will become irrelevant to many. This is how you destroy grassroots support.

[bonarae]

The backlash from those who currently support football, may make this path a self defeating one. Let's say a guy who worked each and every summer to earn enough for school, gets charged X in student fees of which a good chunk goes to support athletics and football. He has to decide whether to go to the game or just do something else. He looks at Joe stud who is on a full ride and getting paid to boot. Think he will be a diehard fan? Part of the support given by students and eventually as alumni (Donors) is built of respect. You won't get much respect for players living the high life because they are flush with money and jumping from school to school for the highest bidder, while the average Joe struggles. Just how I see it. Getting a scholarship is one thing and easily deserving of admiration. The rest is just fodder for eventual distain and providing support, whether that is attendance or giving, will become irrelevant to many. This is how you destroy grassroots support.

Will the players who are only dependent on academic need-based scholarships or families' money (i.e., Ivies, PFL and D-III players) be also real losers in the NIL saga as well? xdontknowx

[Bisonoline]

Will the players who are only dependent on academic need-based scholarships or families' money (i.e., Ivies, PFL and D-III players) be also real losers in the NIL saga as well? xdontknowx

It should just stay the same. How can you lose something you supposedly never had.

[ngineer]

The NCAA should just drop those
100+ schools who want to pay their players. Go off and call themselves the MiLF (Minor League Football)…though the the other connotation may be apropos 😉 Seriously, NCAA athletics are supposed to be amateur, with the school’s students competing against each other. Don’t want to go to classes? Fine. Go pro. NCAA has become a freakin’ joke!

[ngineer]

But that's the point. They are getting a HUGE pay by being on scholarship. Who makes $50K, after taxes using your example while 18-21? Very, very few in this world. But scholarship AND pay? Really? I know this doesn't speak to non scholarship players, but will that even matter soon? Want to pay em? Subtract out the cost of attendance for those on scholarship. The entire pay thing is ridiculous. Will other activities require a piece of the action? How about the cheerleaders, the band, etc. They are all part of the experience.

The backlash from those who currently support football, may make this path a self defeating one. Let's say a guy who worked each and every summer to earn enough for school, gets charged X in student fees of which a good chunk goes to support athletics and football. He has to decide whether to go to the game or just do something else. He looks at Joe stud who is on a full ride and getting paid to boot. Think he will be a diehard fan? Part of the support given by students and eventually as alumni (Donors) is built of respect. You won't get much respect for players living the high life because they are flush with money and jumping from school to school for the highest bidder, while the average Joe struggles. Just how I see it. Getting a scholarship is one thing and easily deserving of admiration. The rest is just fodder for eventual distain and providing support, whether that is attendance or giving, will become irrelevant to many. This is how you destroy grassroots support.
Last two lines on point. I’ve already lost my interest in FBS. Didn’t watch one such game this year, unless you count Army-Navy, which I don’t. They are Patriot League schools in all other sports.

[FUBeAR]

The NCAA should just drop those 100+ schools who want to pay their players. Go off and call themselves the MiLF (Minor League Football)…though the the other connotation may be apropos  Seriously, NCAA athletics are supposed to be amateur, with the school’s students competing against each other. Don’t want to go to classes? Fine. Go pro. NCAA has become a freakin’ joke!Not gonna happen - those schools are gonna keep usin’ the NCAA like the $2 hooker it is as long as they are benefiting from their conjugal relationship … and the NCAA’s 500-3500 (depending on the reference source) employees, with it’s top-heavy and overpaid Executive ranks, is gonna subjugate themselves to performing whatever degrading acts are required to keep those many, many, many $2 transactions flowing from your pocket to advertisers to content providers to the schools & to them via the NCAA.

[ElCid]

Last two lines on point. I’ve already lost my interest in FBS. Didn’t watch one such game this year, unless you count Army-Navy, which I don’t. They are Patriot League schools in all other sports.

I watched a few only because of my dad was watching and I spend that quality time with him. He watches Syracuse so we watched them a few times. And of course Army/Navy. And a few selected FBS/FCS games. But not like I used to. Besides, I spend too much time watching our FCS games. He likes them better actually.

[ngineer]

I watched a few only because of my dad was watching and I spend that quality time with him. He watches Syracuse so we watched them a few times. And of course Army/Navy. And a few selected FBS/FCS games. But not like I used to. Besides, I spend too much time watching our FCS games. He likes them better actually.

So do I. I enjoy D-II and III more than FBS.

[Tribe4SF]

Not gonna happen - those schools are gonna keep usin’ the NCAA like the $2 hooker it is as long as they are benefiting from their conjugal relationship … and the NCAA’s 500-3500 (depending on the reference source) employees, with it’s top-heavy and overpaid Executive ranks, is gonna subjugate themselves to performing whatever degrading acts are required to keep those many, many, many $2 transactions flowing from your pocket to advertisers to content providers to the schools & to them via the NCAA.

Agreed here. The NCAA is learning from current court decisions whether it will have any control at all in the future. I think it's inevitable that they will have to recognize student-athletes at Power 4/5 schools as employees and allow collective bargaining for them. The 85-scholarship limit is already a joke as many who have transferred to P 4/5 schools have not received scholarships but get more NIL money than the cost of attendance. This was true for one of our two guys who transferred last year.

[JacksFan40]

Agreed here. The NCAA is learning from current court decisions whether it will have any control at all in the future. I think it's inevitable that they will have to recognize student-athletes at Power 4/5 schools as employees and allow collective bargaining for them. The 85-scholarship limit is already a joke as many who have transferred to P 4/5 schools have not received scholarships but get more NIL money than the cost of attendance. This was true for one of our two guys who transferred last year.
If they’re classified as employees will they still even be required to actually be students? Or are we just heading down the path of universities being a football developmental league where players aren’t actually students? At that point you could strip away the non-profit status of these universities due to them creating a sports business on the backs of what are supposed to be academic institutions.

[caribbeanhen]

I watched a few only because of my dad was watching and I spend that quality time with him. He watches Syracuse so we watched them a few times. And of course Army/Navy. And a few selected FBS/FCS games. But not like I used to. Besides, I spend too much time watching our FCS games. He likes them better actually.

I didn’t watch any

- - - Updated - - -


So do I. I enjoy D-II and III more than FBS.

same

[taper]

If they’re classified as employees will they still even be required to actually be students? Or are we just heading down the path of universities being a football developmental league where players aren’t actually students? At that point you could strip away the non-profit status of these universities due to them creating a sports business on the backs of what are supposed to be academic institutions.
Non-profit status won't be revoked. The NCAA itself is non-profit, as are tons of hospitals with highly paid employees. The amount of revenue doesn't matter at all to being a non-profit, as long as it's spent towards the org's overall mission.

[Russ B]

If they’re classified as employees will they still even be required to actually be students? Or are we just heading down the path of universities being a football developmental league where players aren’t actually students? At that point you could strip away the non-profit status of these universities due to them creating a sports business on the backs of what are supposed to be academic institutions.

There are a lot of student jobs that require you to be a student while employed by the university--I drove buses for the campus bus service, for example.

(Personally, I think there should just be minor league football teams, and they can license the school logos if people want to keep cheering for certain schools.)

[Bisonoline]

If they’re classified as employees will they still even be required to actually be students? Or are we just heading down the path of universities being a football developmental league where players aren’t actually students? At that point you could strip away the non-profit status of these universities due to them creating a sports business on the backs of what are supposed to be academic institutions.

If they are considered employees then everything they get from the university will be taxable. Room board books tuition FCOA payments etc.

[taper]

If they are considered employees then everything they get from the university will be taxable. Room board books tuition FCOA payments etc.
Not true. I was a student employee at NDSU as a TA. My tuition waiver was not taxed, my cash stipend was. I had a books scholarship for awhile and that was not taxed.

[Bisonoline]

Not true. I was a student employee at NDSU as a TA. My tuition waiver was not taxed, my cash stipend was. I had a books scholarship for awhile and that was not taxed.

It will all depend on how the IRS will now characterize those benefits.

Its like when the IRS changed how businesses could write off employee moving expenses. The hospital I worked at paid for my move from Oregon to Arkansas. One pay day I didnt get a check. WTF. I go to HS and they tell me I had to pay the taxes on my move.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If they’re classified as employees will they still even be required to actually be students? Or are we just heading down the path of universities being a football developmental league where players aren’t actually students? At that point you could strip away the non-profit status of these universities due to them creating a sports business on the backs of what are supposed to be academic institutions.

This is where we're heading. Why stop there? Forget eligibility requirements. If someone wants to play 15 years of college ball, let 'em. Tebow would still be the QB at Florida today.

[FUBeAR]

This is where we're heading. Why stop there? Forget eligibility requirements. If someone wants to play 15 years of college ball, let 'em. Tebow would still be the QB at Florida today.

Yep - exactly what FUBeAR said in post #12 in this thread…


Next Step - Why should "we" lose our best Players to the NFL?

We've already acknowledged that the Players are our "moneymakers."

Why the heck should we force them to leave and go make money for someone else after only 3-5 years when they are in the prime of their Playing days?

These rules don't make sense.

Let 'em stay as long as they want....and we keep payin' 'em as long as they are makin' that kwan for us. Those fat-cat NFL owners can go pound sand, I've got an Athletic Department / University to run and multi-multi-million $ salaries to pay ... like my own!!!



Didn't USC's QB already say if he's not #1 in draft, he's staying @ USC because he can make more money there? Why make that a limited time opportunity?


As Carlton says .... "Mark FUBeAR's words!!" ... but in 1st person possessive ... and referring to himself, not to FUBeAR.

It's Comin'

[JacksFan40]

The more I think about it, the more I could support a super league if it essentially acts as a new subdivision of D1 like with the FBS/FCS split. The only question I have is how does it affect all other sports? If football players are getting paid, under federal regulations you’d have to equally pay all other athletes. This would be ridiculously expensive and would create an uneven balance in all other sports. The only way around that is by classifying football players as employees and keeping other sports as are, but basketball would most definitely be impacted as well. Would they also split basketball into a new super league and essentially end March Madness? That would be ridiculously unpopular.

The reason I can support it is somewhat selfish, but SDSU could stand to benefit. Whatever is left of the FBS will need to form its own division. This opens the door for high resource FCS schools to merge with what will essentially be the G5 plus a few P5 leftovers. SDSU, NDSU, Montana, Montana State and a few others could be apart of this merger. Create an 8 or 12 team playoff and keep bowl games to serve as consolation games like they already are.

As for the remaining FCS? I’d repeal the Dayton rule and let them move down to either D2 or D3, so long as they don’t exceed a spending threshold. The FCS is already a mess with some conferences not offering scholarships, some having a reduced amount, and some not even sending their champion to the playoffs. The level of commitment to football is all over the place and it’d be easier to just take the ones who are committed and merge them with the FBS leftovers, and send the rest down to a division that matches their commitment and hopefully allows for more regional scheduling. They can still be D1 in all other sports.

Of course none of this will happen but it’s fun to dream.

[walliver]

For the most part, this proposal just returns college football to the 1970's. The primary difference is that payers can be paid openly, and women will get paid.

I don't think the deal is particularly attractive to the major players, as most of them have the resources to arrange individualized payments (indirectly via NIL). They don't want to waste money paying women and olympic sport athletes.

[bonarae]

Hmm... where can I file this anywhere on AGS? xchinscratchx

https://footballscoop.com/news/justice-department-joins-lawsuit-against-ncaa-over-transfer-rules-portal

[DFW HOYA]

As for the remaining FCS? I’d repeal the Dayton rule and let them move down to either D2 or D3, so long as they don’t exceed a spending threshold. The FCS is already a mess with some conferences not offering scholarships, some having a reduced amount, and some not even sending their champion to the playoffs. The level of commitment to football is all over the place and it’d be easier to just take the ones who are committed and merge them with the FBS leftovers, and send the rest down to a division that matches their commitment and hopefully allows for more regional scheduling. They can still be D1 in all other sports..

No one would move down.

Which conferences have "a reduced amount"? The PL confirmed it has 63 and the NEC basically does as well, though the NEC uses different funding forumulas.

[caribbeanhen]

No one would move down.

So we’re gonna have 5 levels?

P5
G5
FCS
D2
D3

I’m at a loss as to what’s even going on

[taper]

So we’re gonna have 5 levels?

P5
G5
FCS
D2
D3

I’m at a loss as to what’s even going on
The way things are going it's very possible we get:
NFL feeder league(maybe just Big 10 and SEC each expanded to ~24)
D1 schools that care about football(FBS left behinds and top 1/3rd FCS)
D1 schools that don't care about football and may or may not have a team
D2

No D3 because pay for play is impossible for them. They either jump a level or drop to club sports.

[ngineer]

So we’re gonna have 5 levels?

P5
G5
FCS
D2
D3

I’m at a loss as to what’s even going on

It's all lost. The NCAA has not been "on the level" for years. Its mission statement is garbage. NFL should be made to fund its own minor league, like baseball, and let those who just want to 'go pro', go pro. College athletics then revert to what they were meant to do with no athletic scholarships and only grants in aid. Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream, but thought it would be a token effort.

[ElCid]

It's all lost. The NCAA has been "on the level" for years. Its mission statement is garbage. NFL should be made to fund its own minor league, like baseball, and let those who just want to 'go pro', go pro. College athletics then revert to what they were meant to do with no athletic scholarships and only grants in aid. Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream, but thought it would be a token effort.

I'll vote for that. Does my vote count?

[NY Crusader 2010]

So we’re gonna have 5 levels?

P5
G5
FCS
D2
D3

I’m at a loss as to what’s even going on

It's all lost. The NCAA has been "on the level" for years. Its mission statement is garbage. NFL should be made to fund its own minor league, like baseball, and let those who just want to 'go pro', go pro. College athletics then revert to what they were meant to do with no athletic scholarships and only grants in aid. Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream, but thought it would be a token effort.

The issue is an NFL "minor league" will never work. While not affiliated, NFL feeder leagues like the USFL and XFL and UFL or you-name-it-FL have all flopped despite being played during the spring with no competition for the gung-ho "I'll watch any football that's on" type. So the equivalent of an NFL D League playing in the fall would never happen. So here's what will:

A "top division" will form. Will be made up of the top 50 or 60 college programs. The players will for all intents and purposes be professional athletes. Then below that, you will have something that is in between what we today call the P5 and G5. I think you'll see a range of programs from Boston College, Syracuse, Northwestern, the service academies, plus today's G5 playing at this level. What should happen is that the "top division" totally blows up any sort of traditional conference structure. Make it like the NFL. And for the most part football and all-sports conferences will largely mimic each other at the G5 and FCS levels. Honestly, it would be great to see a world where the Pac 12 could come back together again...in everything but football. I'm sure all those schools (bad blood aside from the recent shuffling) would love to be in a conference together in basketball, baseball and Olympic Sports while chasing their best financial and institutional interests in football.

FCS will be largely the same depending on to what extent the "second level" preserves barriers to entry to that division, as far as individual schools and/or conferences moving up.

Another point -- the NFL should look into eliminating the age limit. They will ultimately want to do the best they can to prevent star players from not coming to the league to instead enjoy lucrative careers at places like Alabama. IMO, it's ridiculous that a star running back coming out of HS has to play 3 years in college to then be able to play 6 years in the NFL before they start to decline. The NFL should want more years to market these guys and sell their jerseys, merch, etc. I'm sure the labor union is a big reason for this status quo staying in place, as current 30 and 31 year old's don't want to lose their job to current 19 year old's, especially when they had to wait their turn to get paid...and without NIL. So, touchy issue. Another thought about that -- is the age limit more unfair to black players, who are more likely to dominate at positions where careers are shorter? The NFL positions that offer the most longevity are K/P/QB/TE/FB/C/LS. If NFL looks at it from this lens, perhaps a change would be slightly more likely.

[Redbird 4th & short]

[QUOTE=ngineer;3172447]

The issue is an NFL "minor league" will never work. While not affiliated, NFL feeder leagues like the USFL and XFL and UFL or you-name-it-FL have all flopped despite being played during the spring with no competition for the gung-ho "I'll watch any football that's on" type. So the equivalent of an NFL D League playing in the fall would never happen. So here's what will:

A "top division" will form. Will be made up of the top 50 or 60 college programs. The players will for all intents and purposes be professional athletes. Then below that, you will have something that is in between what we today call the P5 and G5. I think you'll see a range of programs from Boston College, Syracuse, Northwestern, the service academies, plus today's G5 playing at this level. What should happen is that the "top division" totally blows up any sort of traditional conference structure. Make it like the NFL. And for the most part football and all-sports conferences will largely mimic each other at the G5 and FCS levels. Honestly, it would be great to see a world where the Pac 12 could come back together again...in everything but football. I'm sure all those schools (bad blood aside from the recent shuffling) would love to be in a conference together in basketball, baseball and Olympic Sports while chasing their best financial and institutional interests in football.

FCS will be largely the same depending on to what extent the "second level" preserves barriers to entry to that division, as far as individual schools and/or conferences moving up.

Another point -- the NFL should look into eliminating the age limit. They will ultimately want to do the best they can to prevent star players from not coming to the league to instead enjoy lucrative careers at places like Alabama. IMO, it's ridiculous that a star running back coming out of HS has to play 3 years in college to then be able to play 6 years in the NFL before they start to decline. The NFL should want more years to market these guys and sell their jerseys, merch, etc. I'm sure the labor union is a big reason for this status quo staying in place, as current 30 and 31 year old's don't want to lose their job to current 19 year old's, especially when they had to wait their turn to get paid...and without NIL. So, touchy issue. Another thought about that -- is the age limit more unfair to black players, who are more likely to dominate at positions where careers are shorter? The NFL positions that offer the most longevity are K/P/QB/TE/FB/C/LS. If NFL looks at it from this lens, perhaps a change would be slightly more likely.

Agreed regarding alternative semi-pro or minor league systems ... the ONLY reason there is so much money has little to do with 98% of the D-I athletes. The reason for all the money is simply the intercollegiate college system and campus/alumni/donors/town and their 100+ year history. This is why college sports are so lucrative .. football and basketball for most part, and many of them do not truly make money anyway. But the reason stadiums are filled and donors are donating and sponsors are sponsering evetything has 100% to do with the longstanding colleges and intercollegiate system. it has little to do with coaches and players ... they will all come and go. And very few truly move the needle at all. Not to mention only 1-2% of D-I athletes have any shot at a pro career. So the 30-40k tax free scholarship for 4+ years is plenty compensation for 98% of them .. IMHO.

[ElCid]

[QUOTE=ngineer;3172447]

The issue is an NFL "minor league" will never work. While not affiliated, NFL feeder leagues like the USFL and XFL and UFL or you-name-it-FL have all flopped despite being played during the spring with no competition for the gung-ho "I'll watch any football that's on" type. So the equivalent of an NFL D League playing in the fall would never happen. So here's what will:

A "top division" will form. Will be made up of the top 50 or 60 college programs. The players will for all intents and purposes be professional athletes. Then below that, you will have something that is in between what we today call the P5 and G5. I think you'll see a range of programs from Boston College, Syracuse, Northwestern, the service academies, plus today's G5 playing at this level. What should happen is that the "top division" totally blows up any sort of traditional conference structure. Make it like the NFL. And for the most part football and all-sports conferences will largely mimic each other at the G5 and FCS levels. Honestly, it would be great to see a world where the Pac 12 could come back together again...in everything but football. I'm sure all those schools (bad blood aside from the recent shuffling) would love to be in a conference together in basketball, baseball and Olympic Sports while chasing their best financial and institutional interests in football.

FCS will be largely the same depending on to what extent the "second level" preserves barriers to entry to that division, as far as individual schools and/or conferences moving up.

Another point -- the NFL should look into eliminating the age limit. They will ultimately want to do the best they can to prevent star players from not coming to the league to instead enjoy lucrative careers at places like Alabama. IMO, it's ridiculous that a star running back coming out of HS has to play 3 years in college to then be able to play 6 years in the NFL before they start to decline. The NFL should want more years to market these guys and sell their jerseys, merch, etc. I'm sure the labor union is a big reason for this status quo staying in place, as current 30 and 31 year old's don't want to lose their job to current 19 year old's, especially when they had to wait their turn to get paid...and without NIL. So, touchy issue. Another thought about that -- is the age limit more unfair to black players, who are more likely to dominate at positions where careers are shorter? The NFL positions that offer the most longevity are K/P/QB/TE/FB/C/LS. If NFL looks at it from this lens, perhaps a change would be slightly more likely.

Good just another reason to not watch FBS anymore. If the NCAA doesn't take a hold of what remains, then maybe it time to dump them and create a new ruling body. By getting rid of the dead weight, maybe that can happen. Lock down the mercenary rules and make it painful to do. Return to the amateur nature of the game.

[DFW HOYA]

Another point -- the NFL should look into eliminating the age limit. They will ultimately want to do the best they can to prevent star players from not coming to the league to instead enjoy lucrative careers at places like Alabama. IMO, it's ridiculous that a star running back coming out of HS has to play 3 years in college to then be able to play 6 years in the NFL before they start to decline. The NFL should want more years to market these guys and sell their jerseys, merch, etc. I'm sure the labor union is a big reason for this status quo staying in place, as current 30 and 31 year old's don't want to lose their job to current 19 year old's, especially when they had to wait their turn to get paid...and without NIL. So, touchy issue. Another thought about that -- is the age limit more unfair to black players, who are more likely to dominate at positions where careers are shorter? The NFL positions that offer the most longevity are K/P/QB/TE/FB/C/LS. If NFL looks at it from this lens, perhaps a change would be slightly more likely.

An 19 year old is not physically ready to play in the NFL, period. It's not unlike putting a 15 year old quarterback in the SEC--the height, weight, and speed of the game would be dangerous.

[Redbird 4th & short]

An 19 year old is not physically ready to play in the NFL, period. It's not unlike putting a 15 year old quarterback in the SEC--the height, weight, and speed of the game would be dangerous.

Good points .. but how about a 16 year old in the SEC. At least when he just showed up in January for school and spring ball. Not sure when his birthday is, but if he's 16 now, he'll be 17 sometime this year. He's rank a top 15 to 20 QB in the 2024 class depending on your source. He was going to be a 2025 commit, but LSU already bagged the #1 2025 QB ... so this kid wants a head start I suppose.

https://lsusports.net/sports/fb/roster/player/colin-hurley/

https://247sports.com/college/lsu/article/2024-colin-hurley-lsu-signing-period-223509499/#:~:text=Hurley%2C%20the%20No.,2024%20class%20for% 20the%20Tigers.

Hurley, the No. 20 quarterback in the class, arrives on LSU campus in a few weeks as a 16-year-old early enrollee with the program after reclassifying from the 2025 class. A multi time state champion in Florida, Hurley is one of the more interesting prospects in this entire 2024 class for the Tigers.

[NY Crusader 2010]

An 19 year old is not physically ready to play in the NFL, period. It's not unlike putting a 15 year old quarterback in the SEC--the height, weight, and speed of the game would be dangerous.

Wrong. And even if you were right, guess what? A guy who isn't physically ready yet for the league wouldn't get drafted.

Example: Reggie Bush probably would've had no problem playing in the NFL as a 19 year old. Saiquon Barkley needed the time in college to bulk up and become an absolute monster. It all depends on the specific student athlete. Men are at a wide range of growth stages between 18 and 20 years old -- some are fully developed from a speed and strength perspective, others are still growing. This is why it's so common to see FCS and D-II alumni in the NFL but it's much rarer to see low-major or DII players in the NBA. Because when those guys were graduating high school they weren't the physical specimen they would go on to become in college. But, on the other hand there are the Reggie Bush's and Ezekiel Elliott's of the world...and those guys could play.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Good points .. but how about a 16 year old in the SEC. At least when he just showed up in January for school and spring ball. Not sure when his birthday is, but if he's 16 now, he'll be 17 sometime this year. He's rank a top 15 to 20 QB in the 2024 class depending on your source. He was going to be a 2025 commit, but LSU already bagged the #1 2025 QB ... so this kid wants a head start I suppose.

https://lsusports.net/sports/fb/roster/player/colin-hurley/

https://247sports.com/college/lsu/article/2024-colin-hurley-lsu-signing-period-223509499/#:~:text=Hurley%2C%20the%20No.,2024%20class%20for% 20the%20Tigers.

Hurley, the No. 20 quarterback in the class, arrives on LSU campus in a few weeks as a 16-year-old early enrollee with the program after reclassifying from the 2025 class. A multi time state champion in Florida, Hurley is one of the more interesting prospects in this entire 2024 class for the Tigers.

There have been other cases like this. There was a Nigerian DE in the mid-2000's who somehow enrolled at Louisville at 16 years old....and was an NFL rookie at 19. The average age in the NFL is, what...25? A 19 or 20 year old phenom playing in the NFL isn't as crazy as it sounds.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There have been other cases like this. There was a Nigerian DE in the mid-2000's who somehow enrolled at Louisville at 16 years old....and was an NFL rookie at 19. The average age in the NFL is, what...25? A 19 or 20 year old phenom playing in the NFL isn't as crazy as it sounds.

Kevin Jefferson from Lehigh! Started as a 16 year old freshman, made the Bengals roster as a 19 year old....

Paywall stinks but you can refresh it enough to browse the articles..

https://www.mcall.com/1993/09/03/jefferson-short-on-age-long-on-talent/

https://www.mcall.com/1994/12/21/call-him-the-cincinnati-kid-jefferson-making-it-with-bengals/

[Redbird 4th & short]

Kevin Jefferson from Lehigh! Started as a 16 year old freshman, made the Bengals roster as a 19 year old....

Paywall stinks but you can refresh it enough to browse the articles..

https://www.mcall.com/1993/09/03/jefferson-short-on-age-long-on-talent/

https://www.mcall.com/1994/12/21/call-him-the-cincinnati-kid-jefferson-making-it-with-bengals/

very impressive to have made it that far, though didn't materialize on the field.

[putter]

I wonder if you can go to the Soccer model? 5 Divisions with, approx 40 teams each. In England you have Premier, Championship, League 1 and 2 and a non-league division. The higher up you go the more $$ from TV etc. do the same here with the chance for promotion and relegation. Give programs a goal each year and each Division still can have a championship if they choose. Then, say NDSU and SDSU are 1-2 in league 2 then they can replace say a Nevada and Colorado St that had terrible years in the Championship and get the benefits that go with it.

[ST_Lawson]

I wonder if you can go to the Soccer model? 5 Divisions with, approx 40 teams each. In England you have Premier, Championship, League 1 and 2 and a non-league division. The higher up you go the more $$ from TV etc. do the same here with the chance for promotion and relegation. Give programs a goal each year and each Division still can have a championship if they choose. Then, say NDSU and SDSU are 1-2 in league 2 then they can replace say a Nevada and Colorado St that had terrible years in the Championship and get the benefits that go with it.

You could maybe do something like that with a limited group, like a 2-division conference (as was proposed by some for a replacement to the PAC12 and MWC), but with much OOC scheduling getting put together multiple years in advance, I don't think you'd be able to do it across all of NCAA football. It'd also take a HUGE overhaul of things, and it's unlikely that the schools at the top are going to agree with changing things that drastically. I'm not opposed to the idea at all, I just don't think it's likely.

Slightly more likely would be for the top 64 teams of the P5 to break off and form their own semi-pro league completely separate from the NCAA, leaving everyone else to restructure. In this case, I don't know if the teams would legally become separate entities from the universities or what, but if they are, I'm sure they'd mostly rent the facilities from the universities and not much would change outside of how the budget is shuffled. In this case, you might end up seeing teams like Northwestern or Vanderbilt get left behind. This is also just for football (since it's what's driving most of the conference realignment and huge TV contracts)...other sports would probably stay with the current NCAA model.

You'd probably see the rest of the FBS (mostly the current G5) and the top maybe 30 or so of the current FCS (mostly MVFC, Big Sky, plus a few others) be the new DI FBS.
Same with a number of the top DII teams (thinking teams like Ferris State, Northwest Missouri State, Valdosta State, etc) joining the rest of the FCS to become the new FCS.

[bonarae]

Meanwhile... leaving this here...

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/essay-college-athletics-needs-saving-and-it-needs-good-old-fashioned-bipartisan-lawmaking-to-do-it/

[ElCid]

Meanwhile... leaving this here...

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/essay-college-athletics-needs-saving-and-it-needs-good-old-fashioned-bipartisan-lawmaking-to-do-it/

It is kind of funny that they try to separate the entire NIL/Transfer portal like they were not part and parcel to the same overall effort. They were simply two apparently different issues, but the forces that be had a plan that included both and they are carrying it out, much to the detriment of the sport. There will be some getting rich as a result. Most others will be fodder. The ultimate losers will be the vast majority of players, the fans of course, and most schools themselves.

[bonarae]

Tennessee and Virginia (the states) are calling the NIL rules as "antitrust violations". Do you think transferring the topic to the Politics board here may be more appropriate by now?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10107381-ncaas-nil-rules-accused-of-being-antitrust-violations-in-lawsuit-filed-by-tn-va-ags

[FUBeAR]

Tennessee and Virginia (the states) are calling the NIL rules as "antitrust violations". Do you think transferring the topic to the Politics board here may be more appropriate by now?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10107381-ncaas-nil-rules-accused-of-being-antitrust-violations-in-lawsuit-filed-by-tn-va-ags
So…you’re announcing that this thread has entered the portal?

[caribbeanhen]

It is kind of funny that they try to separate the entire NIL/Transfer portal like they were not part and parcel to the same overall effort. They were simply two apparently different issues, but the forces that be had a plan that included both and they are carrying it out, much to the detriment of the sport. There will be some getting rich as a result. Most others will be fodder. The ultimate losers will be the vast majority of players, the fans of course, and most schools themselves.

Admittedly my interest level is trending towards the Frankly my Dear Scarlett stage….

[mainejeff]

It's funny how some just don't want to play by the rules....any rules. Once you lose "the rules"....parameters that define existing lines in the sand.....it becomes anarchy and everything goes into the ****ter. Sometimes it's better to have an imperfect system than the ultimate ****show it could or will become.

[kdinva]

Well guys, college football as we knew it is now dead.

Not FCS, but related to this thread. And it's 250% accurate.

From Football Scoop:

Boston College head coach Jeff Hafley is leaving the program to become the defensive coordinator of the Green Bay Packers, according to a report Wednesday from ESPN.
“He wants to go coach football again in a league that is all about football,” a source close to Hafley told ESPN (https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1752833836256317495). “College coaching has become fundraising, NIL and recruiting your own team and transfers. There’s no time to coach football anymore."

[caribbeanhen]

Not FCS, but related to this thread. And it's 250% accurate.

From Football Scoop:

Boston College head coach Jeff Hafley is leaving the program to become the defensive coordinator of the Green Bay Packers, according to a report Wednesday from ESPN.
“He wants to go coach football again in a league that is all about football,” a source close to Hafley told ESPN (https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1752833836256317495). “College coaching has become fundraising, NIL and recruiting your own team and transfers. There’s no time to coach football anymore."

maybe they should just institute the draft…..

[UNAPride]

P2 is forming an advisory group to "find solutions and steer college sports into the future."

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39444847/big-ten-sec-form-advisory-group-conferences-bond-tightens

https://deadspin.com/big-ten-sec-college-football-ncaa-1851221198

[UNAPride]

Dennis Dodd: To sum up: By this time next week expect there to be no transfer (already the case) or NIL restrictions at all (pending trials, court rulings). New world, folks.

https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status/1753499498939133985?s=46&t=7YPUal51Y_2_dUtM_RCW4g

[mainejeff]

P2 is forming an advisory group to "find solutions and steer college sports into the future."

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39444847/big-ten-sec-form-advisory-group-conferences-bond-tightens

https://deadspin.com/big-ten-sec-college-football-ncaa-1851221198

They can steer themselves into the ground as far as I'm concerned. F the BIG and SEC!

[NY Crusader 2010]

We're getting closer and closer to conference-less major college football. At least in whatever the top, semi-pro division becomes. I hope the traditional conference structure, with natural rivalries, can somewhat return to normal for basketball and other sports.

[WestCoastAggie]

We're getting closer and closer to conference-less major college football. At least in whatever the top, semi-pro division becomes. I hope the traditional conference structure, with natural rivalries, can somewhat return to normal for basketball and other sports.

But will people care about these traditional conference structures and natural rivalries enough to counter the further losses of revenue?

[NY Crusader 2010]

But will people care about these traditional conference structures and natural rivalries enough to counter the further losses of revenue?

What losses in revenue would you be describing?

[unknown-swac]

NCAA tourney credits will likely be out of the door. Consider payday games with those schools pretty much over with. And, if the rest of the P5 is included at all, they'll have no choice but to exclude those games as well to be able to have a chance to qualify. CFP payouts, done. A lot of schools use those payday games to help their budget so that in itself would be a major hit for quite a few. Less media money as networks will do all they can to fill spots with that "new league." This is just going to make it to where the tier system is:

Big10/SEC
Rest of P5
G5
FCS

Likely one of the reasons so many teams did all of they can to at least make it to the third tier before the split. It'll essentially make FCS the new D2.

[taper]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/us-labor-official-says-dartmouth-basketball-players-are-school-employees-sets-stage-for-union-vote/ar-BB1hPafc
NLRB rules Dartmouth basketball players are school employees. First domino falls.

[FUBeAR]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/us-labor-official-says-dartmouth-basketball-players-are-school-employees-sets-stage-for-union-vote/ar-BB1hPafc
NLRB rules Dartmouth basketball players are school employees. First domino falls.
FUBeAR guess-ti-calculated that Dartmouth's Basketball revenue, including the Ivy League's NCAA Tourney share + Home attendance, is about $10k/Player/Season....about $150k total. The school should enter into a straight profit/loss sharing agreement with the union. Guess-timating expenses are at least $1 million/season ... so, it would only cost the Players about $57k/year each to play hoops for Dartmouth.

Seems fair.

[ngineer]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/us-labor-official-says-dartmouth-basketball-players-are-school-employees-sets-stage-for-union-vote/ar-BB1hPafc
NLRB rules Dartmouth basketball players are school employees. First domino falls.

Yes, I just saw the headline and short blurb. The ruling will certainly be appealed and that could likely go to the Supremes, as well. Pandora's box has been opened and the worms are on the loose.

[POD Knows]

FUBeAR guess-ti-calculated that Dartmouth's Basketball revenue, including the Ivy League's NCAA Tourney share + Home attendance, is about $10k/Player/Season....about $150k total. The school should enter into a straight profit/loss sharing agreement with the union. Guess-timating expenses are at least $1 million/season ... so, it would only cost the Players about $57k/year each to play hoops for Dartmouth.

Seems fair.
Exactly right. They would probably owe the school money. Dartmouth needs to hold the line during labor talks. These “athletes” at this particular university have less than ZERO freaking leverage

[taper]

Yes, I just saw the headline and short blurb. The ruling will certainly be appealed and that could likely go to the Supremes, as well. Pandora's box has been opened and the worms are on the loose.
SCOTUS rightfully kept the Alston decision narrow, but if you read the ruling they were practically begging for more cases to be sent their way. Pay for play is happening and it doesn't matter what us fans want.

[ElCid]

Yes, I just saw the headline and short blurb. The ruling will certainly be appealed and that could likely go to the Supremes, as well. Pandora's box has been opened and the worms are on the loose.

More like the twilight zone. This borders on the ridiculous. Not making it political here, but this was a political decision, not a legally sound one.

[taper]

More like the twilight zone. This borders on the ridiculous. Not making it political here, but this was a political decision, not a legally sound one.
To the contrary, the modern NCAA athlete is clearly an employee under the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. Fairly applying the law is not political. We fans may not like it, but it is the truth.

[POD Knows]

To the contrary, the modern NCAA athlete is clearly an employee under the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. Fairly applying the law is not political. We fans may not like it, but it is the truth.
Explain the difference between a college athlete a high school athlete or any school athlete that plays a sport that generates revenue. Are they not employees given the view some have regarding college athletes

[FUBeAR]

To the contrary, the NCAA athlete is clearly an employee under the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. Fairly applying the law is not political. We fans may not like it, but it is the truth.

The "truth" is...

The 7th & 9th Circuits have also previously ruled that student athletes are not employees under the FLSA.

So....2 US Judicial Circuits have fairly recently "fairly" ruled and disagreed with the Supreme Court of Taper's unanimous ruling ... and with the rulings of the 2 current policy wonks (NLRB General Counsel Jennifer Abruzzo (appointed by President Biden) and Laura A. Sacks, NLRB Regional Director, Region 1 (Boston office) (appointed by Jennifer Abruzzo)) employed by the current administration's Department of Labor, who are political...whether we fans like it/them or not.

No US courts have (yet) ruled that "modern NCAA athletes" are employees....unless FUBeAR missed it.



The Supreme Court of Taper's ruling may eventually become the law of the land, but not yet....and it is definitely not a question that has an answer that can be characterized as "clearly."


EDIT: 3rd Circuit has not yet ruled. Text above has been revised to reflect this correction.

[ElCid]

The "truth" is...

As of February 2023, the 3rd Circuit has ruled that student athletes are not employees under the law.
The 7th & 9th Circuits have also previously ruled that student athletes are not employees under the FLSA.

So....3 US Judicial Circuits have fairly recently "fairly" ruled and disagreed with the Supreme Court of Taper's unanimous ruling ... and with the rulings of the 2 current policy wonks (NLRB General Counsel Jennifer Abruzzo (appointed by President Biden), Laura A. Sacks, NLRB Regional Director, Region 1 (Boston office) (appointed by Jennifer Abruzzo)) employed by the current administration's Department of Labor, who are political...whether we fans like it/them or not.

No US courts have (yet) ruled that "modern NCAA athletes" are employees....unless FUBeAR missed it.



The Supreme Court of Taper's ruling may eventually become the law of the land, but not yet....and it is definitely not a question that has an answer that can be characterized as "clearly."


Boom.

Now from a common sense aspect...this latest determination made from a political, not a legal position is BS. Not that I carry weight, but I have fairly good common sense, as do most people. So I figure the vast majority of people agree with me.

[taper]

The "truth" is...

The 7th & 9th Circuits have also previously ruled that student athletes are not employees under the FLSA.

So....2 US Judicial Circuits have fairly recently "fairly" ruled and disagreed with the Supreme Court of Taper's unanimous ruling ... and with the rulings of the 2 current policy wonks (NLRB General Counsel Jennifer Abruzzo (appointed by President Biden) and Laura A. Sacks, NLRB Regional Director, Region 1 (Boston office) (appointed by Jennifer Abruzzo)) employed by the current administration's Department of Labor, who are political...whether we fans like it/them or not.

No US courts have (yet) ruled that "modern NCAA athletes" are employees....unless FUBeAR missed it.



The Supreme Court of Taper's ruling may eventually become the law of the land, but not yet....and it is definitely not a question that has an answer that can be characterized as "clearly."


EDIT: 3rd Circuit has not yet ruled. Text above has been revised to reflect this correction.
Let's revisit this in a few months when the Johnson and House cases are resolved. D1 athletes are employees. Don't shoot the messenger.

[FUBeAR]

Let's revisit this in a few months when the Johnson and House cases are resolved. D1 athletes are employees. Don't shoot the messenger.
House, which really isn’t seeking to answer ‘the employee question,’ will not be decided until 2025, if then, and FUBeAR has no idea what the timetable for Johnson looks like.

A “messenger” provides unbiased, hopefully truthful and accurate, information.

Not even close in any aspect of that.

You brought your opinion, stated it as a fact; “truth” to be precise, as if your mere opinion represents some irrefutable truth, as you have once again done in this post. And, you also tried to position that the opinions of (one or more) political appointees (only) were/are not “political.” Opinions of political appointees are ALWAYS political. It’s what they are paid to do.

That is not being a “messenger.” It’s marketing. It’s purveying propaganda.


Cyanide was too good for Goebbels. On the other hand, FUBeAR was a big fan of Don Draper. :)

[DFW HOYA]

Let's revisit this in a few months when the Johnson and House cases are resolved. D1 athletes are employees. Don't shoot the messenger.

Why not Division II? Why not Division III? NAIA? NJCAA?

[MR. CHICKEN]

Why not Division II? Why not Division III? NAIA? NJCAA?


33281


....IFIN' YER PAYIN' TUITION...TO PLAY......YER UH CUSTOMER......NOT AN EMPLOYEE..............AWK!

[FUBeAR]

33281


....IFIN' YER PAYIN' TUITION...TO PLAY......YER UH CUSTOMER......NOT AN EMPLOYEE..............AWK!So PFL exempt? And NAIA and JUCO’s do have scholarships.

Also … what about NCCAA? … 92 schools / 17 sports …

The NCCAA sponsors championships in the following sports:


Sport
Men's
Women's


Baseball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png


Basketball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Cross Country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_country_running)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Football (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png


Golf (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Soccer (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Softball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Tennis (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Track and field (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_and_field)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Volleyball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volleyball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png

[POD Knows]

So PFL exempt? And NAIA and JUCO’s do have scholarships.

Also … what about NCCAA? … 92 schools / 17 sports …

The NCCAA sponsors championships in the following sports:


Sport
Men's
Women's


Baseball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png


Basketball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Cross Country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_country_running)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Football (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png


Golf (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Soccer (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Softball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Tennis (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Track and field (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_and_field)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Volleyball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volleyball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png



What about high school, they make revenue from sports. This entire thing is a train wreck.

[FUBeAR]

What about high school, they make revenue from sports. This entire thing is a train wreck.
Absolutely … and the Swim Team in FUBeAR’s S&T ‘hood sells concessions to bring in revenue.

Making BANK on the backs & backstrokes of those U6 kids workin’ the booth as nothing but pure slave labor! We need the Federal Government to step in here. Child slave labor! These Swim Mom Karen’s / Child trafficking pimps need to be in prison!

[WestCoastAggie]

Absolutely … and the Swim Team in FUBeAR’s S&T ‘hood sells concessions to bring in revenue. Making bank on the backs & backstrokes of those U6 kids workin’ the booth as nothing but pure slave labor! We need the Federal Government to step in here. Child slave labor! These Swim Mom Karen’s / Child trafficking pimps need to be in prison!

Just wait until you hear about the Girl Scouts Cookie racket. xcoffeex

[ElCid]

The last few posts all demonstrate that this has NOTHING to do with the law. It all has to do with MONEY. There is no money, or very little in these examples above. Because there is money at the P5 level, the only meaningful money, it is all of a sudden a legal question? Don't make me laugh. Pretty sure it is about greed.

And here is food for thought. If college athletes should be paid, according to some, then how much? Should it be based on how much "their sport" generates? So football players get tens of thousands, and women's golf gets what? $3.95 a year per golfer? I'll love to see how that plays out. The forces pushing this have started a self-destruct timer.

[caribbeanhen]

The last few posts all demonstrate that this has NOTHING to do with the law. It all has to do with MONEY. There is no money, or very little in these examples above. Because there is money at the P5 level, the only meaningful money, it is all of a sudden a legal question? Don't make me laugh. Pretty sure it is about greed.

And here is food for thought. If college athletes should be paid, according to some, then how much? Should it be based on how much "their sport" generates? So football players get tens of thousands, and women's golf gets what? $3.95 a year per golfer? I'll love to see how that plays out. The forces pushing this have started a self-destruct timer.

and what would happen to all of these colleges when everyone realizes that everybody doesn’t need that worthless degree, not that all degrees are worthless by any means, but sometimes little Johnny should be told he’s not college material….. you’re pulling everyone down to your level Johnny boy

[MR. CHICKEN]

So PFL exempt? And NAIA and JUCO’s do have scholarships.

Also … what about NCCAA? … 92 schools / 17 sports …

The NCCAA sponsors championships in the following sports:


Sport
Men's
Women's


Baseball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png


Basketball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Cross Country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_country_running)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Football (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png


Golf (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Soccer (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Softball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softball)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Red_x.svg/13px-Red_x.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Tennis (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png


Track and field (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_and_field)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Green_check.svg/13px-Green_check.svg.png
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Volleyball (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volleyball)
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........NOT EVERAH-ONE....GETS DUH SKOLLY/AID.............SO...THOSE R CUSTOMERS.......ER AWK!

[FUBeAR]

........NOT EVERAH-ONE....GETS DUH SKOLLY/AID.............SO...THOSE R CUSTOMERS.......ER AWK!
Nope, they don't - So...what about Partial Schollies / Aid ... which would (currently) apply to EVERY LEVEL AND EVERY SPORT except D1 FBS Football and D1 Basketball (Mens and Womens)?

If we're going to exempt those peeps based on the Supreme Court of Mr. Chicken's ruling, then every FCS Football School would be smart to offer Full-Schollie's less $1 (to those that are (currently) on Full Schollie (guessing that's about 60-70% of FCS Players (not counting PFL, of course)), so ALL of their Players would not be Employees. Right?

[nodak651]

Anyone know what part (ii) below means? https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/FairLaborStandAct.pdf


(A) The term “employee” does not include any individual who volunteers to perform services for a public agency which is a State, apolitical subdivision of a State, or an interstate governmental agency, if—
(i) the individual receives no compensation or is paid expenses, reasonable benefits, or a nominal fee to perform the services for which the individual volunteered; and
(ii) such services are not the same type of services which the individual is employed to perform for such public agency.

[FUBeAR]

Anyone know what part (ii) below means? https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/FairLaborStandAct.pdf


(A) The term “employee” does not include any individual who volunteers to perform services for a public agency which is a State, a political subdivision of a State, or an interstate governmental agency, if—
(i) the individual receives no compensation or is paid expenses,reasonable benefits, or a nominal fee to perform the services for which the individual volunteered; and
(ii) such services are not the same type of services which the individual is employed to perform for such public agency.


Certainly not easy to decipher - particularly when CRITICAL definitions contain circular references rendering them meaningless / incomprehensible - "...the term “employee” means any individual employed by an employer..." (see below)

But...in this case....let's say you are a janitor in the ND State Capitol and you tell your boss that you'll volunteer to give the kids from your kids' elementary a tour of the Capitol even though they do hire / pay such tour guides. That's fine. Your boss can let you do that without compensation .... BUT ... let's say one of those kids backs up the toilet at the end of the tour and it overflows .... so, you (naturally) are asked/expected to clean up the mess. Now you gotta be paid for that time.

Make sense?

It's a way to keep Employers from getting around the laws by that which is commonly known as being "Voluntold" to do something .... or kinda like "Voluntary" workouts for college athletes....FUBeAR has heard.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Circular references means (generally)...

1) Employee = any individual employed by an employer
2) Employ = to suffer or permit to work
_____ a. suffer = put up with or to tolerate
_____ b. permit = give authorization or consent
3) Employer = any person acting directly or indirectly in the interest of an employer in relation to an employee


So...

Employee (1) = any individual ... put up with or tolerated (2a) or given authorization or consent to work (2b) ... by any person acting directly or indirectly in the interest of (3) any person acting directly or indirectly in the interest of (3...infinitely looping) … in relation to ... any individual (1) ... put up with or or tolerated (2a) or given authorization or consent to work (2b) ... by any person acting directly or indirectly in the interest of (3) any person acting directly or indirectly in the interest of (3...infinitely looping) in relation to (1, 2a, 2b, 3) infinitely looping.


HORRIBLE JOB in creating definitions ... Good money to be made for those in the legal profession though...who are the ones that wrote this ... infinitely looping .... SEE HOW THAT WORKS ... xthumbsupx

[taper]

Anyone know what part (ii) below means? https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/FairLaborStandAct.pdf


(A) The term “employee” does not include any individual who volunteers to perform services for a public agency which is a State, apolitical subdivision of a State, or an interstate governmental agency, if—
(i) the individual receives no compensation or is paid expenses, reasonable benefits, or a nominal fee to perform the services for which the individual volunteered; and
(ii) such services are not the same type of services which the individual is employed to perform for such public agency.


A janitor at a public university needs to be paid if they clean a different building than normal, even if by choice. They can volunteer to judge a basketweaving competition for no pay though.


ETA: Funny that Fubear said almost the exact same thing while I was typing.

[Bisonoline]

House, which really isn’t seeking to answer ‘the employee question,’ will not be decided until 2025, if then, and FUBeAR has no idea what the timetable for Johnson looks like.

A “messenger” provides unbiased, hopefully truthful and accurate, information.

Not even close in any aspect of that.

You brought your opinion, stated it as a fact; “truth” to be precise, as if your mere opinion represents some irrefutable truth, as you have once again done in this post. And, you also tried to position that the opinions of (one or more) political appointees (only) were/are not “political.” Opinions of political appointees are ALWAYS political. It’s what they are paid to do.

That is not being a “messenger.” It’s marketing. It’s purveying propaganda.


Cyanide was too good for Goebbels. On the other hand, FUBeAR was a big fan of Don Draper. :)

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/business/dartmouth-basketball-nlrb-union.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20240207&instance_id=114510&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=23149190&segment_id=157508&user_id=41ce7ec468c848f3695d233a1e6d83ff

[FUBeAR]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/business/dartmouth-basketball-nlrb-union.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20240207&instance_id=114510&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=23149190&segment_id=157508&user_id=41ce7ec468c848f3695d233a1e6d83ff
Paywall - assume it doesn’t say anything different than what FUBeAR has said … An NLRB Regional Director has opined, just as a prior NLRB Regional Director opined in 2014 regarding Northwestern’s Football Players, that Dartmouth’s (Men’s) Basketball Players ARE “Employees” and can be represented by a union (Service Workers in this case; it was Steelworkers at Northwestern) that has gotten at least 30% of the Players (“Employees” in the NLRB’s Director’s opinion) to sign cards / petition the NLRB to hold an election to certify (or not) the union if a majority of these (opined as) “employees” vote for such.

Any other exciting info in that article?

FWIW - in the Northwestern case, the NLRB National Board overruled the Regional Director’s opinion and the results of the election were, allegedly, never tabulated. It is commonly believed that the Northwestern Players, once they had time to REALLY understand what being unionized meant and were to cast a confidential ballot vs. their starting QB requiring them to do an immediate, non-confidential signing of a card in an open group setting, that the union had zero chance of certification. FUBeAR opines that the votes were counted and further opines that IF the Players had voted to certify the union, that info would have leaked in the past 10 years.

We’ll see what happens in the Dartmouth case. Doubtful the current NLRB would overturn the Regional Director as President Biden appointed the NLRB’s Chief Legal Counsel (who has previously opined, rather vehemently, that there is really no such thing as a “Student-Athlete” because they are “employees”) who appointed the Regional Director. It will then go to the courts, most likely…but whether or not that will ‘hold up’ an election remains to be seen, as does the outcome of such an election.

FUBeAR once did an Executive Search for a Large Facility Director in NJ for a company that had 2 sets of Union Workers from 2 different unions walking the picket line outside the Facility - 1st Union went on strike, replacement workers hired, replacement workers unionized by a different union & then they also go on strike - and the 2nd set of replacement workers was in the process of signing cards from a 3rd union. It was a complete ****show. That’s what FUBeAR hopes to see happen at any of these places if STUDENT ATHLETES are determined to be “employees” AND become a ‘union shop.’ It will be ****ing hilarious.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Note: Shoes are compensation - that's literally what the NLRB's decision entails. They're going to Dartmouth allegedly for the compensation of shoes. No, I'm not making this up. Men's hoops at Dartmouth don't offer extra scholarship $ that isn't already available for the rest of the student body, so a scholarship isn't compensation.

https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1754734026152173700

[bonarae]

FCS and non-football D-I schools working together aim to "chart a path for the future"...

https://www.on3.com/os/news/ncaa-fcs-division-i-aaa-working-group-chart-path-for-college-sports-future-stephen-f-austin-ryan-ivey/

[ElCid]

This about sums it up. Good perspective, albeit from an FBS coach. But it probably reflects the feelings of a large proportion of FCS, and lower division coaches.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/nick-saban-reveals-conversation-wife-terry-contributed-retirement-why-are-we-doing-this.amp