Patriot League Offseason Thread

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Figured we needed it.....

Bob Chesney officially headed to JMU? Seems like more smoke is billowing out from both sides to make it possible. If so where does HC go from here? Chesney was the perfect coach at the perfect time at HC. Not only that, he was right in the Crusaders backyard which allowed the stars to align just perfectly. It's hard to have lightning strike twice. Especially in the era of the portal. Crusaders will be DRASTICALLY different if Chesney does indeed leave

Lafayette seems in a great position to run the league for at least the next 2-3 years until everyone else gets their ducks in a row...

Early 2024 Predictions?
1. Lafayette
2. Colgate
3. Fordham
4. Holy Cross
5. Georgetown
6. Lehigh
7. Bucknell

[DFW HOYA]

Over/under on the number of NIL football collectives at PL schools by next fall?

[ngineer]

Figured we needed it.....

Bob Chesney officially headed to JMU? Seems like more smoke is billowing out from both sides to make it possible. If so where does HC go from here? Chesney was the perfect coach at the perfect time at HC. Not only that, he was right in the Crusaders backyard which allowed the stars to align just perfectly. It's hard to have lightning strike twice. Especially in the era of the portal. Crusaders will be DRASTICALLY different if Chesney does indeed leave

Lafayette seems in a great position to run the league for at least the next 2-3 years until everyone else gets their ducks in a row...

Early 2024 Predictions?
1. Lafayette
2. Colgate
3. Fordham
4. Holy Cross
5. Georgetown
6. Lehigh
7. Bucknell

Don't know enough as to what each school has returning/and newbies coming in. A few significant additions in key places might have significant impact. However, based on what I know, now, I can't disagree with the early rankings.

[Southsider]

BTW, what ever happened to Doc QB?

[Franks Tanks]

Personally, I’m kind of enjoying the Cross Sports meltdown with all the smoke around Chesney. Many over there have asserted they should pay him in excess of one million per year (when his name was tied to Syracuse) while others blame the Patriot League (virtually no FCS coaches would turn down a move to JMU). Cignetti was making 667k at JMU and seemed to be in line to get a significant raise if he stayed.

JMU is about the best and “highest level” of a situation an FCS coach can hope for when moving to FBS.

Should be a relatively slow offseason outside of Chesney as the major topics in big time college football are largely irrelevant for the PL.

[gravalico]

By my count Lafayette is losing 9 starters across offense, defense and special teams. This is just to graduation. Not including any potential transfers but also not factoring in any incoming transfers. Losing some key guys at linebacker and the O Line. On the flip side, barring any surprises, we have our QB, Denobile and stud running back, Jamar Curtis back for two more years. And we had a ton of freshman and sophomores get a lot of relevant playing time this season. Feeling very good on the whole.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Pard4Life]

Would like to know who Colgate has returning. If all their key guys, I would rank them #1 for 2024. Pards need to fix the defense that cannot stop maple syrup.

[ngineer]

BTW, what ever happened to Doc QB?

He hasn't been on the Board of late...did make an appearance, I think, during Rivalry Week, and saw him at The Game. He's still pretty busy cutting people and involved with his kids.

[Sader87]

I love how everyone sees HC falling back to the pack in the PL.....we shall see, we already have a QB (not Sluka) who won games at Fordham and at Lehigh this year.

HC is going to be a tough out for anyone in the PL moving forward....Chesney may or may not be back next year but a scholarship Holy Cross is going to be a strong football program moving forward.

[Go...gate]

I believe Lehigh will be far stronger in Year Two of its new coaching regime.
Lafayette and Cross remain the teams to beat.

[gravalico]

Would like to know who Colgate has returning. If all their key guys, I would rank them #1 for 2024. Pards need to fix the defense that cannot stop maple syrup.Except for the part where we finished with the 2nd best defense in the league which included one of the top linebacker trios in all of FCS, one of whom was named one of the three national finalists for the Buck Buchanan award, and a FRESHMAN defensive lineman who earned All American honors, coached by a D-Line coach who, this week was named the 10th best Defensive coach in the nation. Other than that they were horrible. [emoji849]

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[NY Crusader 2010]

I believe Lehigh will be far stronger in Year Two of its new coaching regime.
Lafayette and Cross remain the teams to beat.

As of now, I see Lafayette and Colgate as 1 and 2.

You guys get us in Hamilton next year and imagine your team will be foaming at the mouth to avenge four straight absolute beat-downs.

[gravalico]

I'm going with:

Lafayette

Colgate

Holy Cross

Fordham

Lehigh

Georgetown

Bucknell

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Wolffan]

Personally, I’m kind of enjoying the Cross Sports meltdown with all the smoke around Chesney. Many over there have asserted they should pay him in excess of one million per year (when his name was tied to Syracuse) while others blame the Patriot League (virtually no FCS coaches would turn down a move to JMU). Cignetti was making 667k at JMU and seemed to be in line to get a significant raise if he stayed.

JMU is about the best and “highest level” of a situation an FCS coach can hope for when moving to FBS.

Should be a relatively slow offseason outside of Chesney as the major topics in big time college football are largely irrelevant for the PL. Memories of the disaster that was football at Holy Cross just prior to Chesney will do that to you. Add that to the (very talented) busload of departing graduates and there is certainly cause for concern.

(Yes, a jump from PL head coach directly to FBS head coach would be virtually unprecedented so we'll see if it really happens...)

[Fordham]

Too early to know what next year will look like for the Rams. We return Montes and Loughridge and should get Ricky Parks back, so our O should be very strong once again. Obviously the D has been our Achilles, so not sure we should expect anything drastically different even though it was slightly improved over the 2022 abomination. Still, no clue whether the portal will hurt us or help us so can't push back on those picking us 3 or 4

[Doc QB]

BTW, what ever happened to Doc QB?
Engineer is correct, kid stuff. Only did three games on radio this season for LU.
Club lax for my daughter with a ton of travel and actually coached HS football this fall, was OC for my son's frosh team.
Went 8-1. He was QB. Time of my life.

33230


But back to PL...Lafayette appears to have landed two of the best kids from the Lehigh Valley, announced n TV last night, a DL/wrestler heavyweight state champ from Nazareth and his teammate, WR/DB. Plenty of CAA offers for them both.
We couldnt land them. Trox is getting it done.

[caribbeanhen]

Is the Laffy RB in the portal

heard Delaware will be all over him

[Franks Tanks]

Is the Laffy RB in the portal

heard Delaware will be all over him

Do you know otherwise? He’s not from what I can tell.

[caribbeanhen]

Do you know otherwise? He’s not from what I can tell.

don’t know anything but I like that RB

I can’t imagine Yarns will remain at Delaware so they will need to find one

[gravalico]

Is the Laffy RB in the portal

heard Delaware will be all over himHis dad said he would never do the portal. He's very much appreciative of Lafayette being one of the only schools to give him a scholarship. Hopefully his son agrees.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[NY Crusader 2010]

Too early to know what next year will look like for the Rams. We return Montes and Loughridge and should get Ricky Parks back, so our O should be very strong once again. Obviously the D has been our Achilles, so not sure we should expect anything drastically different even though it was slightly improved over the 2022 abomination. Still, no clue whether the portal will hurt us or help us so can't push back on those picking us 3 or 4

What happened to the offense the last 3 weeks of the season? After the Holy Cross game you guys really seemed to pack it in.

- - - Updated - - -

Lafayette's first game is at Buffalo. Let's make it three straight losses for the Bulls against the Patriot League.

[caribbeanhen]

His dad said he would never do the portal. He's very much appreciative of Lafayette being one of the only schools to give him a scholarship. Hopefully his son agrees.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

totally respect that

[The Boogie Down]

Too early to know what next year will look like for the Rams. We return Montes and Loughridge and should get Ricky Parks back, so our O should be very strong once again. Obviously the D has been our Achilles, so not sure we should expect anything drastically different even though it was slightly improved over the 2022 abomination. Still, no clue whether the portal will hurt us or help us so can't push back on those picking us 3 or 4

Whether Parks is healthy or not doesn't really matter. We all know the offense will be strong and the defense will be atrocious. No mystery here. Especially not for someone who knew Fordham was about to lose 3 out of 4 to close the season. Forgot to give you props on that accurate call.


What happened to the offense the last 3 weeks of the season? After the Holy Cross game you guys really seemed to pack it in.
Yup, team gave up. We ended 2021 in Hamilton the same way. I didn't think it could happen again but for some here it was predictable.

[Go...gate]

What must our football conference do, operational rules-wise, to be a realistic alternative for schools like Richmond and Villanova?

[gravalico]

What must our football conference do, operational rules-wise, to be a realistic alternative for schools like Richmond and Villanova?This is a ponderous question that generally leads to 15 pages of useless navel gazing. That's why I rarely engage in this discussion. This one and PL expansion debate = root canal. That being said, I think things are starting to shift. I think we are starting to compete. I have to begrudgingly credit HC and Fordham for their recent consistent success. I think Lafayette advanced the cause by opening a few eyes in the playoffs. We were kicking the **** out of Delaware until our starting QB went down.

It would appear Colgate may be on the verge of making the PL a 4 horse league for the foreseeable future. If we can start putting two into the post season I think we can compete for the best fcs talent.

Of course there are a few inaliable facts that go along with the PL. Our kids are held to a different standard academically. I think the good news is grades and academic performance are an area of focus now, seemingly more so than in years past for kids who want to play D1 sports. Seems like the 3rd party coaches that these kids engage with try to make sure their pupils represent the total package to would be suitors. Of course the freaks going to football factories don't need to worry about grades but those kids are still the minority. Incidentally I think we have seriously closed the gap with the ivy league at long last. Smart, talented kids are more than willing to take their talents to a reputable organization and get paid for it. Perhaps it helps our cause that the Ivies are off the rails with their overall behavior on a myriad of social issues.

I also think schools really have to commit. They have to award the maximum amount of scholarships. Facilities have to be a draw. Some nod to NIL considerations are more and more relevant. Alumni support has to be there. Most important you need visible, consistent support from the AD and the President You can't half ass it. I think the PL used to half ass it as a league and I think that is changing.

All of this breeds winning and winning supports all of this. That's my two cents.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Wolffan]

What must our football conference do, operational rules-wise, to be a realistic alternative for schools like Richmond and Villanova?Given their geography (sharing PA with Lehigh, Lafayette, and Bucknell) and Catholic orientation (like Holy Cross, Fordham, and Georgetown) Villanova seems a much more logical fit for the Patriot League. Nova regularly competes with the three PA schools in football already and has considerable (to put it mildly) student body overlap with the three Catholic schools. They also share an academic profile with all the PL football schools.

If PL would simply lift the ban on regular redshirts and add a few schollies to their limit I think Nova would be comfortable - as long they (Nova) continue to have a realistic route to the national playoffs/championship.

Nova may be looking for stability given all the wacky football stuff going on now and if PL is good at one thing it is that.

[DFW HOYA]

What must our football conference do, operational rules-wise, to be a realistic alternative for schools like Richmond and Villanova?

1. End, or significantly reform the Academic Index. UR and Villanova are not coming to walk away from 50% or more of their recruitable talent.

2. Allow redshirts, grayshirts, and the like. It's not 1956 anymore, except in Princeton and Center Valley.

3. End artificial roster limits and the 60 scholarship accommodation. If Colgate wants 63, let them have it.

[gravalico]

Given their geography (sharing PA with Lehigh, Lafayette, and Bucknell) and Catholic orientation (like Holy Cross, Fordham, and Georgetown) Villanova seems a much more logical fit for the Patriot League. Nova regularly competes with the three PA schools in football already and has considerable (to put it mildly) student body overlap with the three Catholic schools. They also share an academic profile with all the PL football schools.

If PL would simply lift the ban on regular redshirts and add a few schollies to their limit I think Nova would be comfortable - as long they (Nova) continue to have a realistic route to the national playoffs/championship.

Nova may be looking for stability given all the wacky football stuff going on now and if PL is good at one thing it is that.Nova joining the PL is one of the 7 signs of the apocalypse.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Franks Tanks]

Patriot League expansion is like trying to prove string theory or something.

Simply put:

1.) I like the league as is, as we get lots of flexibility with non-conference games.

2.) No full league members have had any serious flirtations with leaving. Fans opinions on message boards just don’t count.

3.) There are some great and well discussed schools that we be great additions, but none of them want us.

4.) Associate members are always most vulnerable. Of course, if someone leaves, it will likely be Fordham. I really like having Fordham in the league and hope they stay!

5.) If 1 school leaves we still have the autobid, and not time to panic. If two leave it’s full panic mode and we’ll likely add anyone with a pulse to keep the auto. I prefer not to worry about this until it happens😂

[CHIP72]

I'm surprised this hasn't already been posted, but there are reports that Holy Cross head coach Bob Chesney will be hired as the next James Madison head coach, replacing Curt Cignetti (who went to Indiana).

[caribbeanhen]

I'm surprised this hasn't already been posted, but there are reports that Holy Cross head coach Bob Chesney will be hired as the next James Madison head coach, replacing Curt Cignetti (who went to Indiana).

Will Sluka be at JMU as well?

Chesney with perfect timing leaving with Sluka as that QB adds IQ to any coaches resume

[DFW HOYA]

Patriot League expansion is like trying to prove string theory or something.

Simply put:

1.) I like the league as is, as we get lots of flexibility with non-conference games.

2.) No full league members have had any serious flirtations with leaving. Fans opinions on message boards just don’t count.

3.) There are some great and well discussed schools that we be great additions, but none of them want us.

4.) Associate members are always most vulnerable. Of course, if someone leaves, it will likely be Fordham. I really like having Fordham in the league and hope they stay!

5.) If 1 school leaves we still have the autobid, and not time to panic. If two leave it’s full panic mode and we’ll likely add anyone with a pulse to keep the auto. I prefer not to worry about this until it happens

1. Flexibility is great...if you can get teams to play you. Not so easy at Georgetown.

2. If two schools leave, the autobid goes away; however, if anyone other than Georgetown and Fordham leave, the PL will no longer sponsor football per its bylaws (min. five all-sports schools required).

[leopardball2010]

Very interested in the HC open job. I wonder what direction they go?

Revert to the mean and hire an Ivy Coordinator with PL experience (As a Lafayette fan I'd love to see them hire Fein from Harvard)?

Try to find the next D2/D3 Wunderkind?

Go after a bigger FCS name and try to pull a CAA coordinator?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[gravalico]

Uh oh, HC...

https://jmusportsnews.com/2023/12/07/report-jmu-expected-to-hire-bob-chesney-as-head-football-coach/

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I believe Lehigh will be far stronger in Year Two of its new coaching regime.
Lafayette and Cross remain the teams to beat.

I'm not convinced. Lehigh 2023 under Cahill was not much different than Lehigh 2022 under Gilmore. Until Cahill can prove he is more than a great person/respected program administrator by proving his merit as a head coach the jury is still out. Plus, Hunt and the DC remain questionable. The schedule will be much harder in 2024 as well. I have a hard time seeing more than 4 wins unless something drastic changes.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Uh oh, HC...

https://jmusportsnews.com/2023/12/07/report-jmu-expected-to-hire-bob-chesney-as-head-football-coach/

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

This was a done deal two days ago. That's why I made the thread. Today was a formality...

[gravalico]

This was a done deal two days ago. That's why I made the thread. Today was a formality...Didn't realize. Got 'cha.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Southsider]

I'm not convinced. Lehigh 2023 under Cahill was not much different than Lehigh 2022 under Gilmore. Until Cahill can prove he is more than a great person/respected program administrator by proving his merit as a head coach the jury is still out. Plus, Hunt and the DC remain questionable. The schedule will be much harder in 2024 as well. I have a hard time seeing more than 4 wins unless something drastic changes.

Hunt is a disaster. With a bigger D-line, things would have been better on that side of the ball IMHO.

[gravalico]

So with Chesney out isn't it safe to assume that, at the very least, next year is likely to be a transition year for the Cross? I mean they could bring in Lou Holtz reincarnated and just transitioning the offense and defense to a whole new program would likely ensure a. 500 team at best, no?

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So with Chesney out isn't it safe to assume that, at the very least, next year is likely to be a transition year for the Cross? I mean they could bring in Lou Holtz reincarnated and just transitioning the offense and defense to a whole new program would likely ensure a. 500 team at best, no?

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

The loss of Chesney combined with the loss of so many key players suggests next year could be a struggle. After all, they were 7-4 with these guys. Granted, their 2024 schedule will be a little easier. Even so, I'd put their Vegas O/U win total at 5.5

Lafayette 7.5
Colgate 6.5
Fordham 5.5
Holy Cross 5.5
Georgetown 4.5
Lehigh 3.5
Bucknell 3.5

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

One name I have yet to see connected to Holy Cross is Curt Fitzpatrick. Smart, successful coach at SUNY-Cortland. Their DC has roots in NEPA and would play golf at my golf club as a guest so I got to know him a bit....

[Pards Rule]

One name I have yet to see connected to Holy Cross is Curt Fitzpatrick. Smart, successful coach at SUNY-Cortland. Their DC has roots in NEPA and would play golf at my golf club as a guest so I got to know him a bit....

Hey Cortland Red Dragons in D3 semis today vs Randolph-Macon. Good friends with a SUNY Cortland grad. AND I have been through Cortland! Great upstate NY town!

[Pards Rule]

Polands finest (I mean Ohio, right at the PA/OH border next to Boardman (I did the Goddard School deal in Boardman 20 years ago)), Cole Fulton, stud LB, commits to Colgate. Congrats Gate!

[Sader87]

The loss of Chesney combined with the loss of so many key players suggests next year could be a struggle. After all, they were 7-4 with these guys. Granted, their 2024 schedule will be a little easier. Even so, I'd put their Vegas O/U win total at 5.5

Lafayette 7.5
Colgate 6.5
Fordham 5.5
Holy Cross 5.5
Georgetown 4.5
Lehigh 3.5
Bucknell 3.5

Yes 7-4, but two 3-point losses to FBS teams and another 3 point loss to PL co-champ Lafayette. Horseshoes and hand grenades I know but that was a very good 7-4 team.

There will probably be a drop-off next year due to graduation, the loss of Chesney and hopefully not too many decommits/transfers but HC should return a pretty good nucleus of players next year. QB Pesansky won his 2 starts and looked good in doing so,. Fuller is back at RB. Need to replace a lot of a very good O-line and someone to come near to what Coker was at WR.

The defense was mostly our Achilles heel this year but seemed to come together by the end of the year....outplayed Army's O for the most part in that tough loss. We return a lot of this unit minus Dobbs who is really unreplaceable.

Lose our punter who was very good but was rarely needed this year....our PK'ing was poor, needs improvement or replacing.

The 2024 schedule is actually maybe just as daunting as 2023's was.....only 1 FBS game, Syracuse but 3 CAA games (URI, UNH and Bryant) and 2 of the returning Ivy champs (Harvard and Yale). One of the reasons I think went into Chesney's calculus to leave this year was that he could be coming off another 7-5 season this time next year and had to strike while the iron was hot this year.

It's going to be a tough transition but I really don't see HC "falling off the cliff" as it has in the past during our 1-AA/FCS era (post Duffner in the 90s and post Dom Randolph era in the early 2010s. The commitment form the school, alums and the job Chesney did of course has revitalized the HC football community and I think it will continue to be very strong moving forward.

[gravalico]

Yes 7-4, but two 3-point losses to FBS teams and another 3 point loss to PL co-champ Lafayette. Horseshoes and hand grenades I know but that was a very good 7-4 team.

There will probably be a drop-off next year due to graduation, the loss of Chesney and hopefully not too many decommits/transfers but HC should return a pretty good nucleus of players next year. QB Pesansky won his 2 starts and looked good in doing so,. Fuller is back at RB. Need to replace a lot of a very good O-line and someone to come near to what Coker was at WR.

The defense was mostly our Achilles heel this year but seemed to come together by the end of the year....outplayed Army's O for the most part in that tough loss. We return a lot of this unit minus Dobbs who is really unreplaceable.

Lose our punter who was very good but was rarely needed this year....our PK'ing was poor, needs improvement or replacing.

The 2024 schedule is actually maybe just as daunting as 2023's was.....only 1 FBS game, Syracuse but 3 CAA games (URI, UNH and Bryant) and 2 of the returning Ivy champs (Harvard and Yale). One of the reasons I think went into Chesney's calculus to leave this year was that he could be coming off another 7-5 season this time next year and had to strike while the iron was hot this year.

It's going to be a tough transition but I really don't see HC "falling off the cliff" as it has in the past during our 1-AA/FCS era (post Duffner in the 90s and post Dom Randolph era in the early 2010s. The commitment form the school, alums and the job Chesney did of course has revitalized the HC football community and I think it will continue to be very strong moving forward.I will be very curious to see if HC tries to catch lightening in a bottle again by hiring a deserving, successful DII or DIII coach again. Worked for them with Chesney and worked for Lafayette with Troxell.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Go...gate]

Polands finest (I mean Ohio, right at the PA/OH border next to Boardman (I did the Goddard School deal in Boardman 20 years ago)), Cole Fulton, stud LB, commits to Colgate. Congrats Gate!


Thanks! We need all the help we can get!

[Go...gate]

Yes 7-4, but two 3-point losses to FBS teams and another 3 point loss to PL co-champ Lafayette. Horseshoes and hand grenades I know but that was a very good 7-4 team.

There will probably be a drop-off next year due to graduation, the loss of Chesney and hopefully not too many decommits/transfers but HC should return a pretty good nucleus of players next year. QB Pesansky won his 2 starts and looked good in doing so,. Fuller is back at RB. Need to replace a lot of a very good O-line and someone to come near to what Coker was at WR.

The defense was mostly our Achilles heel this year but seemed to come together by the end of the year....outplayed Army's O for the most part in that tough loss. We return a lot of this unit minus Dobbs who is really unreplaceable.

Lose our punter who was very good but was rarely needed this year....our PK'ing was poor, needs improvement or replacing.

The 2024 schedule is actually maybe just as daunting as 2023's was.....only 1 FBS game, Syracuse but 3 CAA games (URI, UNH and Bryant) and 2 of the returning Ivy champs (Harvard and Yale). One of the reasons I think went into Chesney's calculus to leave this year was that he could be coming off another 7-5 season this time next year and had to strike while the iron was hot this year.

It's going to be a tough transition but I really don't see HC "falling off the cliff" as it has in the past during our 1-AA/FCS era (post Duffner in the 90s and post Dom Randolph era in the early 2010s. The commitment form the school, alums and the job Chesney did of course has revitalized the HC football community and I think it will continue to be very strong moving forward.

Agreed.

[Sader87]

All conjecture now.....Smith a NYG asst was the HC OC in 2022....younger coaches in the Chesney tree who are head coaches at Ithaca and Endicott now....James the DC has been named interim coach for the time being.

[The Boogie Down]

It's going to be a tough transition but I really don't see HC "falling off the cliff" as it has in the past during our 1-AA/FCS era (post Duffner in the 90s and post Dom Randolph era in the early 2010s.

For us it twice took two years to fall off the cliff. The year following Clawson we went w/5-6 but with lots of freshman and lots of promise. The year following Moorhead we went 8-3 and probably deserved a playoffs spot. In both cases it was the year after that where we flopped and found ourselves in need of a redo. Not saying that'll happen at HC but the same way it takes a good coach 2/3 years to build, even bad coaches need a couple of years to tear it all down.

[DFW HOYA]

The loss of Chesney combined with the loss of so many key players suggests next year could be a struggle. After all, they were 7-4 with these guys. Granted, their 2024 schedule will be a little easier. Even so, I'd put their Vegas O/U win total at 5.5

Lafayette 7.5
Colgate 6.5
Fordham 5.5
Holy Cross 5.5
Georgetown 4.5
Lehigh 3.5
Bucknell 3.5

Any Patriot League team above 6 wins becomes speculative.

But while it is not common to do so, things can change: a two win Georgetown team returning just two starters on offense finished 5-6 and lost two games by field goals.

With no scholarships, by the way. Such is irony: two or three winless seasons might call the scholarships question, but at 5-6, they'll never get them.

[Go...gate]

Any Patriot League team above 6 wins becomes speculative.

But while it is not common to do so, things can change: a two win Georgetown team returning just two starters on offense finished 5-6 and lost two games by field goals.

With no scholarships, by the way. Such is irony: two or three winless seasons might call the scholarships question, but at 5-6, they'll never get them.

And that is a shame.

[Wolffan]

The loss of Chesney combined with the loss of so many key players suggests next year could be a struggle. After all, they were 7-4 with these guys. Granted, their 2024 schedule will be a little easier. Even so, I'd put their Vegas O/U win total at 5.5

Lafayette 7.5
Colgate 6.5
Fordham 5.5
Holy Cross 5.5
Georgetown 4.5
Lehigh 3.5
Bucknell 3.5 Yes, HC is losing an enormous amount of talent to graduation this year. And that is on the heels of last year’s (defensive) losses.

Sluka was an unstoppable PL mismatch from the day he stepped on the field four years ago and his replacement is (obviously) an enormous step down.

The very talented head coach and various key assistants are gone.

And who knows how many verbal commits have bailed with the changes in coach and staff.

Given that, they could go winless (or nearly so) in their OOC.

I’d guess 2-ish wins OOC and 3-ish wins PL.

5.5 wins seems a good place for the O/U

[gravalico]

Well... Curran to HC...thoughts?

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Sader87]

Well... Curran to HC...thoughts?

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

Unfortunately for the rest of the PL, I think this is a tremendous hire for us.

Everybody's different but seems to have many of the same qualities that made Chesney so successful on Mt St James.

[gravalico]

Unfortunately for the rest of the PL, I think this is a tremendous hire for us.

Everybody's different but seems to have many of the same qualities that made Chesney so successful on Mt St James.Time will tell but he seems like a good hire on paper. Up and comer, as they say. We shall see.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Unfortunately for the rest of the PL, I think this is a tremendous hire for us.

Everybody's different but seems to have many of the same qualities that made Chesney so successful on Mt St James.

O-2 against Lehigh, including 1 of Lehigh's wins this year! I like it! This is by no means a slam dunk hire for Holy Cross. His resume is nothing like Chesney's. I honestly expected Holy Cross to land someone with more of a proven record as a head coach or a young, aspiring FBS coordinator. This to me is shockingly "mediocre"....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Yes, HC is losing an enormous amount of talent to graduation this year. And that is on the heels of last year’s (defensive) losses.

Sluka was an unstoppable PL mismatch from the day he stepped on the field four years ago and his replacement is (obviously) an enormous step down.

The very talented head coach and various key assistants are gone.

And who knows how many verbal commits have bailed with the changes in coach and staff.

Given that, they could go winless (or nearly so) in their OOC.

I’d guess 2-ish wins OOC and 3-ish wins PL.

5.5 wins seems a good place for the O/U

I think with Holy Cross's hire is might be wise to drop HC's O/U to 4.5. Curran has only exceeded 5 wins 4x in 11 years as a head coach.....

[gravalico]

I think with Holy Cross's hire is might be wise to drop HC's O/U to 4.5. Curran has only exceeded 5 wins 4x in 11 years as a head coach.....Well that doesn't bode well.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well that doesn't bode well.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

Yeah his resume is rather hollow. Never won a conference title, never coached in the playoffs, only 4 winning seasons, 2 of which were 6-5 seasons. Chesney came to Mount St. James with far more pedigree. If I'm Lafayette I'm feeling pretty good. Troxell and the 'Pards are in a great spot....pun intended :p

[gravalico]

Yeah his resume is rather hollow. Never won a conference title, never coached in the playoffs, only 4 winning seasons, 2 of which were 6-5 seasons. Chesney came to Mount St. James with far more pedigree. If I'm Lafayette I'm feeling pretty good. Troxell and the 'Pards are in a great spot....pun intended :pOn the one hand I would love for Lafayette to dominate for the foreseeable future. On the other hand we need to start putting two in the playoffs to lend more weight to PL football. I was hoping HC and Fordham would duke it out for a close and compelling 2nd place for the next 10 years.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

On the one hand I would love for Lafayette to dominate for the foreseeable future. On the other hand we need to start putting two in the playoffs to lend more weight to PL football. I was hoping HC and Fordham would duke it out for a close and compelling 2nd place for the next 10 years.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

Fordham has the offensive talent to at least be relevant because they're "entertaining". I'm interested to see if Colgate is able to leverage their 6-5 2023 campaign into a return to national relevancy next year. They're 2024 schedule is quite a bit easier so with a step forward themselves 7 wins season obtainable....

[Sader87]

Curran will have many more resources, contacts, supports etc at Holy Cross than he did at Merrimack. Seems like a very personable, energetic guy....his teams gave us fits the last 3 years, beating us in 2021 after we had knocked off UConn.

I think it's a very good hire in that it's somewhat seamless i.e. has head coaching experience, knows the HC roster somewhat having played us the last few years, has recruited inside and out of the New England area as an FCS coach, is a relative local (from Eastern Mass and played at UNH) so he knows the terrain and the history of HC football etc.

Supposedly this was a "much wanted" position and Curran came out on top.

Is it a "splashy hire?" Maybe not but I think Curran will fit in and do very well at Holy Cross.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Fordham has the offensive talent to at least be relevant because they're "entertaining". I'm interested to see if Colgate is able to leverage their 6-5 2023 campaign into a return to national relevancy next year. They're 2024 schedule is quite a bit easier so with a step forward themselves 7 wins season obtainable....

Colgate might not quite be "nationally" relevant next year but I expect them to be fully in the running for the Patriot League title.

[DFW HOYA]

I think it's a very good hire in that it's somewhat seamless i.e. has head coaching experience, knows the HC roster somewhat having played us the last few years, has recruited inside and out of the New England area as an FCS coach, is a relative local (from Eastern Mass and played at UNH) so he knows the terrain and the history of HC football etc.

Supposedly this was a "much wanted" position and Curran came out on top.

Is it a "splashy hire?" Maybe not but I think Curran will fit in and do very well at Holy Cross.

PL not a home for splashy hires:

Head coaches (w/career record):
Bucknell: Former Valpo HC (30-73)
Colgate: Former Colgate player who became an assistant coach and then HC (14-19)
Fordham: Former Yale OC (29-31)
Georgetown: Former Georgetown player who became an assistant coach and then HC (30-68)
Holy Cross: Former Merrimack HC (53-58)
Lafayette: Former Franklin & Marshall HC (105-77)
Lehigh: Former Yale OC (2-9)

[Sader87]

A Dan Curran, given the resources HC has, will be a very dangerous coach.....look out PL....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

A Dan Curran, given the resources HC has, will be a very dangerous coach.....look out PL....

No one is scared 87. Sorry. HC does not have a resource advantage. Time will tell....

[NY Crusader 2010]

To expect Chesney-level performance at Holy Cross year-over-year is unrealistic. If Curran were to be here for a decade and were to match whatever overall Fordham's W-L record was from 2013-2022, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Bob Chesney is of the Brian Kelly/Urban Meyer mold. Win big at every level and keep moving up. Curran isn't that. But he has a pedigree and should be a solid fit at Holy Cross.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.

[DFW HOYA]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.

And if Georgetown ever got scholarships HC would be chasing them. But it's not happening.

[Sader87]

And if Georgetown ever got scholarships HC would be chasing them. But it's not happening.

Mehh....you haven't had good teams since the 1940s....I'll grant you, you have potential

[DFW HOYA]

Mehh....you haven't had good teams since the 1940s....I'll grant you, you have potential

FWIW...
The 1978 team was one point short of an undefeated season (lost to St. John's 33-32)
Nine win teams in 1998 and 1999
The 2011 team seems in hindsight like an anomaly. Kevin Kelly was 8-3 that season and 16-60 in his other seasons.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.

Careful. I'm sure some of us said this about basketball 20 years ago.

[Franks Tanks]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.

This is so dumb even for you. Holy Cross has no inherent advantage over the rest of the league “when they have scholarships”. You guys also managed to be terrible for 20 years in between scholarship eras, despite playing by the same rules as the rest of the league.

[gravalico]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.Wow. Crazy how 4 good years go to one's head. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you guys absolutely blow after Duffner bailed on you for like... Oh I don't know...a decade maybe longer. I remeber absolutely rolling you guys my Senior year in 93. Your defensive line was tiny. Positively high school-esque. Probably the most fun I had aside from beating Lehigh, in my 4 years.

Then you had a few decent years with Gilmore until he started swirling the bowl. Four awesome years with Chesney until he bailed just before the inevitable rebuild. Got while the getting was good as they say.

Anyway, pump the breaks on the "premier scholarship program", Knute Rockne. Mark Duffner ain't walking through that door. There is every indication you might be looking at another 4 years of
.500 ball. God I hope so.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[ngineer]

And if Georgetown ever got scholarships HC would be chasing them. But it's not happening.

I mentioned several years ago about a conversation I had with Pete Lembo around the time the PL went scholarship, and he was unequivocal that if Georgetown committed to football scholarships the “sleeping giant” would be awakened. With their national academic footprint their recruiting would be on a par with HYP.

[Go...gate]

Fordham has the offensive talent to at least be relevant because they're "entertaining". I'm interested to see if Colgate is able to leverage their 6-5 2023 campaign into a return to national relevancy next year. They're 2024 schedule is quite a bit easier so with a step forward themselves 7 wins season obtainable....

It is a bit easier, but that does not mean very much.

[Go...gate]

This is so dumb even for you. Holy Cross has no inherent advantage over the rest of the league “when they have scholarships”. You guys also managed to be terrible for 20 years in between scholarship eras, despite playing by the same rules as the rest of the league.

Yes.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.

Maybe one of these days, HC will be invited to join C-USA.

You guys always seem to be looking elsewhere.

[Gater]

Holy Cross is the premier scholarship football program in the PL.....as long as HC has football scholarships, the rest of the PL will be chasing them....it is what it is.

Holy Cross has been great over the past four years. The previous three decades have been less kind.

Holy Cross went
45-64-1 in the 1990’s
55-57 in the 2000’s
47-67 in the 2010’s

For an overall record of
147-188-1

Over those 30 years Holy Cross was 88-88 in the Patriot League.

Holy Cross was incredible in the 80’s winning 71% of games. The 70’s we less kind with a 37% winning percentage. 60’s were not great with a 48% winning percentage.

Over the past six decades, Holy Cross has had one winning decade--the 1980’s.

Since the PL started allowing scholarships, Holy Cross has been 65-64 overall and 41-24 in the PL. That’s including Chesney’s remarkable run.

Seems like Holy Cross has been great when it’s had great coaches. In terms of being the “premier scholarship football program in the PL?” I think you’re right as long as you ignore wins and losses.

[Wolffan]

Wow. Crazy how 4 good years go to one's head. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you guys absolutely blow after Duffner bailed on you for like... Oh I don't know...a decade maybe longer. I remeber absolutely rolling you guys my Senior year in 93. Your defensive line was tiny. Positively high school-esque. Probably the most fun I had aside from beating Lehigh, in my 4 years.

Then you had a few decent years with Gilmore until he started swirling the bowl. Four awesome years with Chesney until he bailed just before the inevitable rebuild. Got while the getting was good as they say.

Anyway, pump the breaks on the "premier scholarship program", Knute Rockne. Mark Duffner ain't walking through that door. There is every indication you might be looking at another 4 years of
.500 ball. God I hope so.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk To the extent it matters, Chesney had 6 good PL seasons at Holy Cross: 4 outright league Championship's, 1 league co-Championship, and 1 league T-2.

The three best coaches in their I-AA/FCS era were Carter, Duffner and Chesney.

And yes, Chesney moved directly up to a FBS head coach position (very very unusual for a PL coach) at the same time Holy Cross is looking at tons of talent graduating (on top of last year's talented graduation losses). Definitely a substantially weaker roster next year - timing is everything in regards to moving up the coaching ranks.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross was playing Penn St, Syracuse, Army and BC etc in the 1960s and 1970s at the 1-A level while other PL schools (outside of Colgate) were playing Coast Guard and Muhlenberg....of course our overall records weren't great then.

When HC has had full scholarships at the 1-AA/FCS level, beginning in the 1980s (and the last 6 or 7 years) we have been a very strong program.

I fully expect new HC Curran to continue HC's success at the 1-AA level given the resources he has at Holy Cross.

[DFW HOYA]

Holy Cross was playing Penn St, Syracuse, Army and BC etc in the 1960s and 1970s at the 1-A level while other PL schools (outside of Colgate) were playing Coast Guard and Muhlenberg....of course our overall records weren't great then.

To be fair...

1. Bucknell has never played the Coast Guard and last played Mulhenberg in 1962.

2. Fordham played USCGA in three games from 1978 to 1980. It last played Mulhenberg in 1922.

3. Georgetown has never played either school.

4. Lehigh has never played the Coast Guard and last played Mulhenberg in 1954.

5. Lafayette has never played the Coast Guard and last played Mulhenberg in 1963.

[gravalico]

Holy Cross was playing Penn St, Syracuse, Army and BC etc in the 1960s and 1970s at the 1-A level while other PL schools (outside of Colgate) were playing Coast Guard and Muhlenberg....of course our overall records weren't great then.

When HC has had full scholarships at the 1-AA/FCS level, beginning in the 1980s (and the last 6 or 7 years) we have been a very strong program.

I fully expect new HC Curran to continue HC's success at the 1-AA level given the resources he has at Holy Cross.Uh huh...and what, pray tell, happened to all those resources during your two decades of ineptitude? You're making the classic, "if we didn't suck we'd be awesome" argument. What HC did in the 60s has no bearing on what HC is going to do in 2024.

In 1869 Lafayette invented the football helmet so look out world, here we come! Duh.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Franks Tanks]

Holy Cross was playing Penn St, Syracuse, Army and BC etc in the 1960s and 1970s at the 1-A level while other PL schools (outside of Colgate) were playing Coast Guard and Muhlenberg....of course our overall records weren't great then.

When HC has had full scholarships at the 1-AA/FCS level, beginning in the 1980s (and the last 6 or 7 years) we have been a very strong program.

I fully expect new HC Curran to continue HC's success at the 1-AA level given the resources he has at Holy Cross.

Holy Cross hasn’t played Penn State since 1963 and only 4 times overall. BC was not a “power conference” school in those days, they really existed on the fringes of big time college football then (and that’s being generous). Lafayette played Rutgers yearly until 1976, as did Lehigh (with Bucknell a frequent opponent as well). Also, lots of games against the “major college” Ivies at the time.

Chesney had a great run, but you must admit his rise had very fortuitous timing, as it coincided with years when Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Fordham could not get out of their own way.

[Pards Rule]

Uh huh...and what, pray tell, happened to all those resources during your two decades of ineptitude? You're making the classic, "if we didn't suck we'd be awesome" argument. What HC did in the 60s has no bearing on what HC is going to do in 2024.

In 1869 Lafayette invented the football helmet so look out world, here we come! Duh.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

Actually 1896 Grav, you mistyped the two digits. LC didnt begin football until 1882 and George Barclay invented it to prevent cauliflower ears - I remember the 100th year rah rah in 1982.

[gravalico]

Actually 1896 Grav, you mistyped the two digits. LC didnt begin football until 1882 and George Barclay invented it to prevent cauliflower ears - I remember the 100th year rah rah in 1982.Actually we're both right. And none of it assures us success in 2024 just as the glory days of Mark Duffner assure HC nothing come September. This from AI...

Who invented the football helmet?

Determining the single inventor of the football helmet is a bit tricky, as the evolution of headgear in the sport involved contributions from several individuals:

Early Headgear:

1869: George “Rose” Barclay, a Lafayette College halfback, started using leather straps and earpieces to protect his ears.

1891: James Naismith, the inventor of basketball, reportedly wore a padded leather head covering while playing football for the YMCA.

1893: Joseph M. Reeves, a U.S. Naval Academy midshipman, donned a moleskin cap with padding for the Army-Navy game.

Modern Helmet Design:

1896: George Barclay again appears on the scene, credited with the first documented, leather-padded helmet with ear flaps and a nose guard.

1906: Samuel Hodge became the first football player to wear a helmet with a hard leather shell, further evolving protection



Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Franks Tanks]

Grav, take a look at the highlights of the 92 Army/Lafayette game. I’m sure that one still hurts.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=areGI86b0yw

Back to the subject at hand, yes Holy Cross played a more challenging overall schedule vs. the PA schools in the 70’s. But Holy Cross was not in the freaking SEC like Sader would like us to believe.

[Wolffan]

Chesney had a great run, but you must admit his rise had very fortuitous timing, as it coincided with years when Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Fordham could not get out of their own way. It is true Chesney’s six -year run coincided with some down years at various other PL teams (I’d remove DeMorat’s Fordham from your list) but that can be partially explained by Chesney landing better recruits (in some cases those kids would’ve gone to other PL teams as stars).

Chesney's OOC games were pretty respectable over 6 years and that includes the two (very) close losses this year to BC and Army.

‘87 does have a point (although it may be coincidental) that HC’ s best 1-AA/FCS teams and coaches, by far, have been during athletic scholarship times. Carter, Duffner, and Chesney. And Curran is coming in during an athletic scholarship period.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Temple and Bucknell once played for the "Old Shoe"!

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/photo/738f-132069062/IMG_2795_large.jpg

[gravalico]

Grav, take a look at the highlights of the 92 Army/Lafayette game. I’m sure that one still hurts.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=areGI86b0yw

Back to the subject at hand, yes Holy Cross played a more challenging overall schedule vs. the PA schools in the 70’s. But Holy Cross was not in the freaking SEC like Sader would like us to believe.Yeah that was a hell of an experience. 38,000 fans complete with 3 star generals in attendance. I remember actual generals shaking our hands afterwards thanking us for a great homecoming experience.

The Commandant of West Point gets on the PA system afterwards to congratulate the players on a great victory. In celebration of said victory all of the cadets got an extra 2 hours of free time (or something like that). I thought to myself, "We lost but we're going back to Easton and we're going to drink our faces off".

It was a tough loss but it is a great memory. That game and the home Lehigh games were the best football atmospheres I have ever experienced.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[gravalico]

It is true Chesney’s six -year run coincided with some down years at various other PL teams (I’d remove DeMorat’s Fordham from your list) but that can be partially explained by Chesney landing better recruits (in some cases those kids would’ve gone to other PL teams as stars).

Chesney's OOC games were pretty respectable over 6 years and that includes the two (very) close losses this year to BC and Army.

‘87 does have a point (although it may be coincidental) that HC’ s best 1-AA/FBS teams and coaches, by far, have been during athletic scholarship times. Carter, Duffner, and Chesney. And Curran is coming in during an athletic scholarship period.Of course. It stands to reason that their best years came with scholarships.

This notion that that all other PL teams are forever chasing HC because of what Duffner did in the eighties is ludicrous. Chesney did a remarkable job for HC for the last 6 years. Fair to say he set the standard. And Curran's success is only predicated on what Chesney did based on how well the remaining Chesney recruits do. After that he is on his own (as is the case of any new coach). And the ghosts of Mark Duffner et. al. play no role in future victories. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news but HC is not viewed as some unstoppable juggernaut, resourced to the hilt, against whom resistance is futile. I would say most teams in the PL look at HC next year as a game they should win.

The only sense of dread I ever have or ever will associate with HC football is the trip to Worcester.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Wolffan]

Of course. It stands to reason that their best years came with scholarships.


No, it does not.

You may be unfamiliar with our I-AA (full schollie coach) Rick Carter. Playing against full schollie teams we were outstanding. Later Duffner (who played a variety of teams with some full schollie players) was outstanding against all opponents. Later Chesney (who played schollie teams with HC schollie teams).

Regardless of our opponents, we’ve tended to be stinko without schollie teams and good with schollie teams.

As I’ve noted, it could be a coincidence.

Now, will Curran, arriving to campus at a fully schollie 1-AA/FCS team see the sort of success as Rick Carter or Bob Chesney. We’ll see.

[gravalico]

No, it does not.

You may be unfamiliar with our I-AA (full schollie coach) Rick Carter. Playing against full schollie teams we were outstanding. Later Duffner (who played a variety of teams with some full schollie players) was outstanding against all opponents. Later Chesney (who played schollie teams with HC schollie teams).

Regardless of our opponents, we’ve tended to be stinko without schollie teams and good with schollie teams.

As I’ve noted, it could be a coincidence.

Now, will Curran, arriving to campus at a fully schollie 1-AA/FCS team see the sort of success as Rick Carter or Bob Chesney. We’ll see.We will see indeed.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[pardfan]

Middle Three Conference 1929-1969 Lafayette, Lehigh, Rutgers

[NY Crusader 2010]

No, it does not.

You may be unfamiliar with our I-AA (full schollie coach) Rick Carter. Playing against full schollie teams we were outstanding. Later Duffner (who played a variety of teams with some full schollie players) was outstanding against all opponents. Later Chesney (who played schollie teams with HC schollie teams).

Regardless of our opponents, we’ve tended to be stinko without schollie teams and good with schollie teams.

As I’ve noted, it could be a coincidence.

Now, will Curran, arriving to campus at a fully schollie 1-AA/FCS team see the sort of success as Rick Carter or Bob Chesney. We’ll see.

I think that's what it is. In the I-AA era, Holy Cross has had 6 head coaches. We've been lucky to have made tremendous hires and wound up with 3 phenomenal coaches during that time (Carter, Duffner, Chesney). All three of those coaches took HC to the Top 5 in the polls, peaking with Duffner's 1987 squad earning a #1 final national ranking despite not participating in the postseason. We had one very unsuccessful coach during that time (Vaas) who entered at a time when HC was de-emphasizing athletics. He was followed by Dan Allen, a very good coach who led BU to a successful run in the 1990's. Unfortunately, Allen dealt with some health issues and the program never really broke through from the post-scholarship woes. Tom Gilmore came on and rebuilt the culture to some extent. Overall, as we've seen at multiple PL schools, mediocre head coach but he had a solid run from 2005-2011. Chesney pretty much blew the roof off of modern-day expectations for Holy Cross football. I like the Curran hire...but he's not Chesney.

[gravalico]

I think that's what it is. In the I-AA era, Holy Cross has had 6 head coaches. We've been lucky to have made tremendous hires and wound up with 3 phenomenal coaches during that time (Carter, Duffner, Chesney). All three of those coaches took HC to the Top 5 in the polls, peaking with Duffner's 1987 squad earning a #1 final national ranking despite not participating in the postseason. We had one very unsuccessful coach during that time (Vaas) who entered at a time when HC was de-emphasizing athletics. He was followed by Dan Allen, a very good coach who led BU to a successful run in the 1990's. Unfortunately, Allen dealt with some health issues and the program never really broke through from the post-scholarship woes. Tom Gilmore came on and rebuilt the culture to some extent. Overall, as we've seen at multiple PL schools, mediocre head coach but he had a solid run from 2005-2011. Chesney pretty much blew the roof off of modern-day expectations for Holy Cross football. I like the Curran hire...but he's not Chesney.This is a fair assessment of the situation. Lafayette had a great Coach in Russo but he became utterly hamstrung by a school administration that turned completely against football. It culminated with a President who suggested perhaps a study would be in order to explore a drop to a lower level of competition. Cue the falling bomb sounds. That was it. Lafayette went through it's dark phase. Just goes to show how important administration support is and how simple, in theory, things can change. 87's position that HC is some sort of FCS wagon that all other teams can only aspire to is a lot of horse ****. That's my primary point of view.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[DFW HOYA]

So far, Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, and Holy Cross have each had their runs over the past 20 years, while Bucknell and Georgetown haven't been anywhere close. Now it's Lafayette's turn, because Troxell is that good and the rest of the PL is not.

Meanwhile, Bucknell and Georgetown seem incapable of championship football at this point, and that comes down to talent: Bucknell can't recruit them and Georgetown can't get them admitted. Tomorrow's early signees will see more of the same from these two programs.

[Pards Rule]

This is a fair assessment of the situation. Lafayette had a great Coach in Russo but he became utterly hamstrung by a school administration that turned completely against football. It culminated with a President who suggested perhaps a study would be in order to explore a drop to a lower level of competition. Cue the falling bomb sounds. That was it. Lafayette went through it's dark phase. Just goes to show how important administration support is and how simple, in theory, things can change. 87's position that HC is some sort of FCS wagon that all other teams can only aspire to is a lot of horse ****. That's my primary point of view.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk
Boom! Grav remember it well. In the era before social media, I found out about it picking up my daily Philly Inquirer...FRONT PAGE! NOT SPORTS BUT ACTUAL FRONT PAGE! ABOVE THE FOLD NO LESS! Damn! I heard Tavani (then RB coach under Russo) was called back from a recruiting meeting he was having at a Harrisburg area HS. This idiocy (thanks President Rotberg and Gail Atkinson (one of first female ADs in the country back in late 90s)) messed up our recruiting for a few years. FINALLY when they decided to stay D1 (thanks to alums who stepped up and guaranteed money for D1 and for a complete renovation of Fisher Field) did we right the ship. Rusoo retired at the end of the 1999 season. The news came out in Jan 1999 I so recall right in the middle of the then recruiting peak season (back on a different calendar).

[gravalico]

Boom! Grav remember it well. In the era before social media, I found out about it picking up my daily Philly Inquirer...FRONT PAGE! NOT SPORTS BUT ACTUAL FRONT PAGE! ABOVE THE FOLD NO LESS! Damn! I heard Tavani (then RB coach under Russo) was called back from a recruiting meeting he was having at a Harrisburg area HS. This idiocy (thanks President Rotberg and Gail Atkinson (one of first female ADs in the country back in late 90s)) messed up our recruiting for a few years. FINALLY when they decided to stay D1 (thanks to alums who stepped up and guaranteed money for D1 and for a complete renovation of Fisher Field) did we right the ship. Rusoo retired at the end of the 1999 season. The news came out in Jan 1999 I so recall right in the middle of the then recruiting peak season (back on a different calendar).My younger brother was offered a spot on the team during those dark years. He's forever grateful to Tavani because he gave him a shot. He was not actually recruited any where else (runt of the litter at 6,2 on his tip toes). Truth is Tavani needed him as much as my brother needed Lafayette. It worked out great for my brother but I think they won like a total of 4-5 games his entire 4 years. Nonetheless, he's a proud Leopard alum now and thrilled to see Trox working his magic.

That period was as dark for Lafayette as any. I actually think the Garrett years were worse because that mess was truly self-inflicted.

Oh well... Better days!

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Fordham]

The most important thing behind the PL's winning programs is both institutional & alumni support/commitment. By that measure I expect Curran to either be successful or get the boot faster than he would at most other PL schools because HC has decided that it's important for them to be good at football. I think at Fordham we have had good institutional commitment since the early 2000's. It hasn't guaranteed us good hires but we didn't mess around much when we found that we did have a sub par coach on our hands. Like it or not we also led on the scholarship issue while most other PL schools preferred to not have to deal with explaining to their faculty why they were going to now offer merit aid to football players. HC's pathetic lapse period was very much aligned with Fr Brooks, right? They have since corrected that and, while I don't expect it to be easy to match what Chesney has done, I do expect them to continue to compete at the top of the PL.

Where does the rest of the PL stand when it comes to admin & alumni support? Every other school has had their Fr Brooks era it seems. I'm just not sure which schools are fully out of it and are at schools committed to fielding a winning team v just participating in the sport with like minded schools.

[gravalico]

The most important thing behind the PL's winning programs is both institutional & alumni support/commitment. By that measure I expect Curran to either be successful or get the boot faster than he would at most other PL schools because HC has decided that it's important for them to be good at football. I think at Fordham we have had good institutional commitment since the early 2000's. It hasn't guaranteed us good hires but we didn't mess around much when we found that we did have a sub par coach on our hands. Like it or not we also led on the scholarship issue while most other PL schools preferred to not have to deal with explaining to their faculty why they were going to now offer merit aid to football players. HC's pathetic lapse period was very much aligned with Fr Brooks, right? They have since corrected that and, while I don't expect it to be easy to match what Chesney has done, I do expect them to continue to compete at the top of the PL.

Where does the rest of the PL stand when it comes to admin & alumni support? Every other school has had their Fr Brooks era it seems. I'm just not sure which schools are fully out of it and are at schools committed to fielding a winning team v just participating in the sport with like minded schools.All excellent points. Couldn't agree more. At Lafayette we have the coach pillar nailed down for the long haul in John Troxell. All he ever aspired to do was be the HC of Lafayette. He's a home town hero who grew up 10 minutes from campus.

Our AD has been phenomenal thus far. She made a commitment to changing the culture to one of results (winning) early on and has remained consistently true to that vision. I can not speak to her long term commitment to lafayette but I hope she's here for the foreseeable future.

Our President is spectacular. When I visited Lafayette for the Fordham game I was talking to Trox and he brought her up unsolicited. He said she's a dream comedy true for Lafayette football. He has a morning walk around campus scheduled with her every Wednesday just to stay connected. She affirmed directly to him that we "are a Division I program and we are going to act like it". She has been supportive of every "ask" John has made of her including some rather sizeable investments in the program.

The alumni have never been more invested and supportive. We were on life support through the Garrett years but we all threw ourselves wholeheartedly behind Lafayette football again once Johnny Trox took the healm. Donations are up considerably and alumni participation in games and events is through the roof. John is excellent at exciting the masses.

So as it stands right now Lafayette football hasn't been this strong in decades. I'm also well aware that it can change in the blink of an eye particularly if changes take place in the administration.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Wolffan]

The most important thing behind the PL's winning programs is both institutional & alumni support/commitment. By that measure I expect Curran to either be successful or get the boot faster than he would at most other PL schools because HC has decided that it's important for them to be good at football. I think at Fordham we have had good institutional commitment since the early 2000's. It hasn't guaranteed us good hires but we didn't mess around much when we found that we did have a sub par coach on our hands. Like it or not we also led on the scholarship issue while most other PL schools preferred to not have to deal with explaining to their faculty why they were going to now offer merit aid to football players. HC's pathetic lapse period was very much aligned with Fr Brooks, right? They have since corrected that and, while I don't expect it to be easy to match what Chesney has done, I do expect them to continue to compete at the top of the PL.

Where does the rest of the PL stand when it comes to admin & alumni support? Every other school has had their Fr Brooks era it seems. I'm just not sure which schools are fully out of it and are at schools committed to fielding a winning team v just participating in the sport with like minded schools.Holy Cross's return to championship form was due to many factors. Certainly coach, admin, new facilities, etc. But one would have to be willfully blind not to see the (great) contribution of (Covid) 5th years. The briefest glance at the PL all-stars the last few years confirms this. This was VERY important at HC. The Patriot League must permit regular redshirt 5th years as the Covid kids graduate if Holy Cross is to remain at/near the top of the PL . (And if it is to continue to have national FCS aspirations).

[Pard4Life]

My younger brother was offered a spot on the team during those dark years. He's forever grateful to Tavani because he gave him a shot. He was not actually recruited any where else (runt of the litter at 6,2 on his tip toes). Truth is Tavani needed him as much as my brother needed Lafayette. It worked out great for my brother but I think they won like a total of 4-5 games his entire 4 years. Nonetheless, he's a proud Leopard alum now and thrilled to see Trox working his magic.

That period was as dark for Lafayette as any. I actually think the Garrett years were worse because that mess was truly self-inflicted.

Oh well... Better days!

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

I actually think darker years were 2015 & 2016 than the 'study era'. I think we were at least competitive in the 1998-2001 era in many games. During 2015-16, you had a staid Frank Tavani and I think we went three straight games without a TD, getting walloped by Georgetown, and having to rely on the defense to score points. Tavani showed no signs of leaving either nor was there any impetus for a change. He may have even been back for 2017 provided he did not say those wacky comments at the end of the Lehigh game. Garrett years were not 'dark' - just no direction or any hope of being championship caliber.

[DFW HOYA]

Holy Cross's return to championship form was due to many factors. Certainly coach, admin, new facilities, etc. But one would have to be willfully blind not to see the (great) contribution of (Covid) 5th years.

Also not inconsequential: decades-low results at mainstays Lehigh and Colgate.

[ngineer]

Also not inconsequential: decades-low results at mainstays Lehigh and Colgate.

Yes. It was apparent something was wrong with Andy going back to 2017 when his 'focus' seemed to be off; and yet, nothing was done . It took another year before efforts were made to address the problem, wherein our recruiting took a dip. Gilmore came in late for 2019 season getting a mediocre class, and then COVID hit, so everything seemed frozen in place. The seven year drought wasn't as bad as the Desert Era (1963-70), but it has been bad. The early word on our incoming class (17 at the moment) is "excellent" with more expected. The lack of Lehigh and Colgate being able to challenge with championship caliber teams really left the League wide open for HC and FU to rise. I fully expect us to return to our tradition of 'being in the hunt' every year for the PL championship by 2025 (assuming no 'pleasant surprises next fallxsmiley_wix!

[Go...gate]

Also not inconsequential: decades-low results at mainstays Lehigh and Colgate.

For Colgate, the post-Biddle years were showing promise up until 2020, after which Dan Hunt was run off. Dakosty has gotten his sea legs but the future remains uncertain.

[Go...gate]

Any major departures/additions at any PL program?

[RichH2]

Yes. It was apparent something was wrong with Andy going back to 2017 when his 'focus' seemed to be off; and yet, nothing was done . It took another year before efforts were made to address the problem, wherein our recruiting took a dip. Gilmore came in late for 2019 season getting a mediocre class, and then COVID hit, so everything seemed frozen in place. The seven year drought wasn't as bad as the Desert Era (1963-70), but it has been bad. The early word on our incoming class (17 at the moment) is "excellent" with more expected. The lack of Lehigh and Colgate being able to challenge with championship caliber teams really left the League wide open for HC and FU to rise. I fully expect us to return to our tradition of 'being in the hunt' every year for the PL championship by 2025 (assuming no 'pleasant surprises next fallxsmiley_wix!

63 is my era. Cooley caught in the benign de-emphasis of football by Lehigh. Gilmore hit a perfect storm. Sterrett did not handle any of it well. The program hopefully is back on a solid footing with Coach Cahill. Recruit class is up to 21 with more to come. Cahill has emphasized athletes and speed. Class has a lot of both

[ngineer]

63 is my era. Cooley caught in the benign de-emphasis of football by Lehigh. Gilmore hit a perfect storm. Sterrett did not handle any of it well. The program hopefully is back on a solid footing with Coach Cahill. Recruit class is up to 21 with more to come. Cahill has emphasized athletes and speed. Class has a lot of both

Good to hear. The one thing that cannot be taught is speed. Quickness can be worked on, but speed is mostly natural. You either got it or you don't, and it can make up for a lot of shortcomings elsewhere.

As for 'your' era, when I arrived in '70, Lehigh was just ready to exit the Desert and had the great win over Delaware to go 4-6--the most wins since 1962. I was so happy for the upperclassmen who had struggled to improve the program, and also admired those who entered in '67, when Lehigh was at its nadir having just gone 0-9 in '66 and then going 1-8 in '67. Fred Dunlap built from the ground up with solid players of strong character and commitment. I also salute Deming Lewis, the President of the University who had been under pressure for a few years to fire Fred, but recognized what he was trying to do...and it worked. Patience is a rare commodity in today's world.

[Go...gate]

Good to hear. The one thing that cannot be taught is speed. Quickness can be worked on, but speed is mostly natural. You either got it or you don't, and it can make up for a lot of shortcomings elsewhere.

As for 'your' era, when I arrived in '70, Lehigh was just ready to exit the Desert and had the great win over Delaware to go 4-6--the most wins since 1962. I was so happy for the upperclassmen who had struggled to improve the program, and also admired those who entered in '67, when Lehigh was at its nadir having just gone 0-9 in '66 and then going 1-8 in '67. Fred Dunlap built from the ground up with solid players of strong character and commitment. I also salute Deming Lewis, the President of the University who had been under pressure for a few years to fire Fred, but recognized what he was trying to do...and it worked. Patience is a rare commodity in today's world.

Fred Dunlap is a very special man.

[bonarae]

Meanwhile... is the PL past its prime when it comes to the FCS championship? xchinscratchx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Meanwhile... is the PL past its prime when it comes to the FCS championship? xchinscratchx

Not sure the angle of the comment since the PL has not won a 1-AA/FCS national title. Colgate's finals appearance is well in the review mirror at this point and Lehigh's loss to EKU is nearing ancient history. While the current landscape suggests the PL is fighting a nearly impossible battle the league has shown, rather consistently in fact, being capable of producing Top 10 type teams. Holy Cross committed the cardinal sin by scheduling themselves out of the playoffs as an elite PL team. They took on too many losses and injuries given a natural small margin for error thanks to some of the PL rules. Lafayette was a darn good team too and had their QB not got hurt against UD they win that game. I truly believe they could have given Montana a competitive game. They're a physical team.

I'm interested to see what Colgate puts forth this year. They along with Lafayette seem positioned to be relevant all of 2024; especially Lafayette. The cupboard isn't bare at Holy Cross but given the losses and a tough schedule they'll fight for 6 wins imo. Fordham has a lot of talent but coaching is an issue. Their ceiling is only so high.

To Cahill's credit he did bring in some excellent talent; almost shockingly so. Lehigh's two QB recruits are legitimately two of the best in the entire state of PA, which is saying something. However, the staff, especially Hunt at OC, have to prove they can right the ship. Lehigh easily could have beaten Fordham and Holy Cross last year but didn't. Their final two games of the year, against Colgate and Lafayette, were pitiful efforts imo. They no-showed against Colgate and got completely outplayed in the second half against their arch rivals. However, there is talent and what I maintain, a sleeping giant (relatively speaking) IF the institution is committed like HC was under Chesney.

Not PL, but kinda. sorta related. Villanova is the best program in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic. However, as a private school it's tough for them to be good EVERY year. So they need to strike while the iron is hot. I expect them to seriously challenge for a national title next year. They have JMU-type dudes....

[NY Crusader 2010]

Not sure the angle of the comment since the PL has not won a 1-AA/FCS national title. Colgate's finals appearance is well in the review mirror at this point and Lehigh's loss to EKU is nearing ancient history. While the current landscape suggests the PL is fighting a nearly impossible battle the league has shown, rather consistently in fact, being capable of producing Top 10 type teams. Holy Cross committed the cardinal sin by scheduling themselves out of the playoffs as an elite PL team. They took on too many losses and injuries given a natural small margin for error thanks to some of the PL rules. Lafayette was a darn good team too and had their QB not got hurt against UD they win that game. I truly believe they could have given Montana a competitive game. They're a physical team.

I'm interested to see what Colgate puts forth this year. They along with Lafayette seem positioned to be relevant all of 2024; especially Lafayette. The cupboard isn't bare at Holy Cross but given the losses and a tough schedule they'll fight for 6 wins imo. Fordham has a lot of talent but coaching is an issue. Their ceiling is only so high.

To Cahill's credit he did bring in some excellent talent; almost shockingly so. Lehigh's two QB recruits are legitimately two of the best in the entire state of PA, which is saying something. However, the staff, especially Hunt at OC, have to prove they can right the ship. Lehigh easily could have beaten Fordham and Holy Cross last year but didn't. Their final two games of the year, against Colgate and Lafayette, were pitiful efforts imo. They no-showed against Colgate and got completely outplayed in the second half against their arch rivals. However, there is talent and I what maintain, a sleeping giant (relatively speaking) IF the institution is committed like HC was under Chesney.

Not PL, but kinda. sorta related. Villanova is the best program in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic. However, as a private school it's tough for them to be good EVERY year. So they need to strike while the iron is hot. I expect them to seriously challenge for a national title next year. They have JMU-type dudes....

Recent history suggests that pretty much anyone outside of the Dakotas is fighting an uphill battle. Outside of JMU, when was the last time a CAA had a team truly capable of winning a title? UNH in 2014 or the one-hit-wonder Towson team in 2013? The Big Sky hasn't won a championship since Eastern Washington in 2010. The Southland is more often than not a non-factor in the postseason these days.

[Pards Rule]

All excellent points. Couldn't agree more. At Lafayette we have the coach pillar nailed down for the long haul in John Troxell. All he ever aspired to do was be the HC of Lafayette. He's a home town hero who grew up 10 minutes from campus.

Our AD has been phenomenal thus far. She made a commitment to changing the culture to one of results (winning) early on and has remained consistently true to that vision. I can not speak to her long term commitment to lafayette but I hope she's here for the foreseeable future.

Our President is spectacular. When I visited Lafayette for the Fordham game I was talking to Trox and he brought her up unsolicited. He said she's a dream comedy true for Lafayette football. He has a morning walk around campus scheduled with her every Wednesday just to stay connected. She affirmed directly to him that we "are a Division I program and we are going to act like it". She has been supportive of every "ask" John has made of her including some rather sizeable investments in the program.

The alumni have never been more invested and supportive. We were on life support through the Garrett years but we all threw ourselves wholeheartedly behind Lafayette football again once Johnny Trox took the healm. Donations are up considerably and alumni participation in games and events is through the roof. John is excellent at exciting the masses.

So as it stands right now Lafayette football hasn't been this strong in decades. I'm also well aware that it can change in the blink of an eye particularly if changes take place in the administration.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

Without question! John and the admin "understand" Lafayette. And may I also give a shout out to my friend (lived next to him frosh year) and sat with him at Delaware game, BOT chair Bob Sell. He is a huge Pard sports backer.

[DFW HOYA]

Meanwhile... is the PL past its prime when it comes to the FCS championship? xchinscratchx

Yes.

[caribbeanhen]

Recent history suggests that pretty much anyone outside of the Dakotas is fighting an uphill battle. Outside of JMU, when was the last time a CAA had a team truly capable of winning a title? UNH in 2014 or the one-hit-wonder Towson team in 2013? The Big Sky hasn't won a championship since Eastern Washington in 2010. The Southland is more often than not a non-factor in the postseason these days.

JMU was the only threat to the children of the corn, scary thing is there is no end in sight

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

JMU was the only threat to the children of the corn, scary thing is there is no end in sight

The current dynamics in college sports COULD work in favor of the private, more academically prestigious universities who compete at the lower ranks. Villanova, Furman, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Fordham, Richmond etc. plus W&M (outlier public in a great location) have the resources to cultivate athletic excellence and the academic offerings to entice their top student-athletes to stay which builds continuity.

Villanova is close. They should be a preseason Top 5 team next year. Can they get the semifinals on the Main Line?

[gravalico]

The current dynamics in college sports COULD work in favor of the private, more academically prestigious universities who compete at the lower ranks. Villanova, Furman, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Fordham, Richmond etc. plus W&M (outlier public in a great location) have the resources to cultivate athletic excellence and the academic offerings to entice their top student-athletes to stay which builds continuity.

Villanova is close. They should be a preseason Top 5 team next year. Can they get the semifinals on the Main Line?Nova's facilities suck for football. At least they did when we played our Thanksgiving day game against Malvern Prep every year.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Gater]

Colgate building new basketball arena, athletics quad, football "pavilion" (with locker rooms, offices etc--maybe on the backside of the stadium), conditioning/training center. Colgate president very committed to fielding winning teams.

Think if HC new coach is solid, Lehigh stays the current course, Colgate continues recovery from losing Hunt during Covid (which exacerbated issues) and Lafayette and Fordham keep doing what they're doing, the league should be as good as its ever been. Removing JMU and Delaware from eastern playoff pool helps (though Colgate will miss JMU in the playoffs). That being said, title will run through midwestern teams not following App State, Georgia Southern, etc. to FBS for the foreseeable future.

Here's a link to Colgate's athletic facilities improvements. https://thirdcenturycampaign.colgate.edu/funding-priorities/athletics-campus

[pardfan]

I think there should be more of an emphasis on attendance. If a team's attendance is mostly relatives of players, undergrads, and grads (WHICH IT SEEMS TO BE)...I don't think that's good enough. (While I haven't been to a LC game since around 2016, the attendance that day was half of an LC non-conference game I saw just 5 years earlier.)

The Austen Peay game I witnessed back in October was a revelation. SEEMED LIKE THE WHOLE TOWN OF CLARKSVILLE, TN WAS THERE. Game situation cheers coordinated by an undergrad on the loudspeaker, a respectable band (which many--not all--PL and Ivy schools don't seem to give a darn about), activities that included fan participation, kids all over the place ("Mom and Dad, Can we go to the Peay game?")...I'm guessing it's like that when the Dakotas play, too.

Every athletic director in the PL and Ivy League should send a representative to these FCS games where teams thrive to get ideas. Local attendance (or lack thereof) can't be shrugged off anymore.

[caribbeanhen]

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/w-m-holds-tight-to-caa-affiliation-as-league-continues-to-evolve/article_e073dda2-ae55-11ee-8ab2-037dcf124033.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=user-share

[DFW HOYA]

"There are no Patriot League limitations that would prevent any of our programs from awarding the FCS maximum of 63 equivalencies in athletics scholarship support,” Ryan Sakamoto, the Patriot League’s assistant commissioner for communications, wrote in an email response to an inquiry from The Times-Dispatch."

[Franks Tanks]

JMU was the only threat to the children of the corn, scary thing is there is no end in sight

Agree. I think the PL is capable of putting a team deep into the FCS playoffs once every few years. We can’t beat the Dakota schools, but neither can anyone else.

[Go...gate]

The current dynamics in college sports COULD work in favor of the private, more academically prestigious universities who compete at the lower ranks. Villanova, Furman, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Fordham, Richmond etc. plus W&M (outlier public in a great location) have the resources to cultivate athletic excellence and the academic offerings to entice their top student-athletes to stay which builds continuity.

Villanova is close. They should be a preseason Top 5 team next year. Can they get the semifinals on the Main Line?

Seems to me that you left someone out.....

[Go...gate]

Colgate building new basketball arena, athletics quad, football "pavilion" (with locker rooms, offices etc--maybe on the backside of the stadium), conditioning/training center. Colgate president very committed to fielding winning teams.

Think if HC new coach is solid, Lehigh stays the current course, Colgate continues recovery from losing Hunt during Covid (which exacerbated issues) and Lafayette and Fordham keep doing what they're doing, the league should be as good as its ever been. Removing JMU and Delaware from eastern playoff pool helps (though Colgate will miss JMU in the playoffs). That being said, title will run through midwestern teams not following App State, Georgia Southern, etc. to FBS for the foreseeable future.

Here's a link to Colgate's athletic facilities improvements. https://thirdcenturycampaign.colgate.edu/funding-priorities/athletics-campus

Thank you for sharing this.

[Go...gate]

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/w-m-holds-tight-to-caa-affiliation-as-league-continues-to-evolve/article_e073dda2-ae55-11ee-8ab2-037dcf124033.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=user-share

Paywall.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm looking forward to seeing Colgate BACK this year. IMO they may already be there. Would love nothing more than to see Colgate, Lehigh, Holy Cross and Fordham be Top 30-40 FCS teams every year. I know I left out Lafayette -- I love that school and their alumni base. Very loyal, and they deserved their run in 2023. Hope they keep it up. History says sustained runs of success at Lafayette are fleeting...but I guess you could say the same about HC.

[Go...gate]

Colgate tinkers with its schedule for the next two years, adding home and home games with Villanova and Merrimack.

Syracuse also returns to the schedule for 2025,apparently replacing the Cal Poly game.

The 2024 and 2025 games with Morgan State are no longer scheduled.

Only one Ivy on the slate in 2025, the traditional matchup with Cornell.

[bonarae]

Colgate tinkers with its schedule for the next two years, adding home and home games with Villanova and Merrimack.

Syracuse also returns to the schedule for 2025,apparently replacing the Cal Poly game.

The 2024 and 2025 games with Morgan State are no longer scheduled.

Only one Ivy on the slate in 2025, the traditional matchup with Cornell.

Link please? Are these all final?

[Gater]

Colgate 24-25 Schedules. Great seeing 12 games both years. 7 away games next year.

https://colgateathletics.com/documents/2024/1/10/Future_Football_Schedules_2024-25.pdf?path=football

[Go...gate]

Link please? Are these all final?

Colgate Athletics football page.

[Go...gate]

Colgate 24-25 Schedules. Great seeing 12 games both years. 7 away games next year.

https://colgateathletics.com/documents/2024/1/10/Future_Football_Schedules_2024-25.pdf?path=football

xthumbsupx

[Wolffan]

Colgate 24-25 Schedules. Great seeing 12 games both years. 7 away games next year.

https://colgateathletics.com/documents/2024/1/10/Future_Football_Schedules_2024-25.pdf?path=football

Any chance at all that Nova game is a sellout (weather should be nice September 7, may be coming off a road win v a very struggling Maine program, and the opponent is well known)? As I recall sellout is about 10K.

[Go...gate]

Any chance at all that Nova game is a sellout (weather should be nice September 7, may be coming off a road win v a very struggling Maine program, and the opponent is well known)? As I recall sellout is about 10K.

No.

[Southsider]

No.

HELL NO!

[Pards Rule]

Hello! Thinking of attending spring practice for Pards - never went before. Can a leopard carrying guy get in?

- - - Updated - - -

Im planning on going to Buffalo!

[caribbeanhen]

Hello! Thinking of attending spring practice for Pards - never went before. Can a leopard carrying guy get in?

- - - Updated - - -

Im planning on going to Buffalo!


Delaware fans can’t really get in to spring practice anymore

[Wolffan]

Originally Posted by Wolffan https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3171122#post3171122)
Any chance at all that Nova game is a sellout (weather should be nice September 7, may be coming off a road win v a very struggling Maine program, and the opponent is well known)? As I recall sellout is about 10K.
No. Not completely surprised to hear that given the 'crowds' recently but I was trying to imagine a scenario (weather + team quality + opponent) that would at least approach a (10K-ish) sellout up there next year...especially given the limited home slate in the Sept-Oct time period.

This upcoming year there are only Villanova, Cornell, and Holy Cross in that time period. A potentially very nice (albeit small) home slate. If Colgate is doing well and the weather is reasonable will any of those games hit 5K attendance?

[DFW HOYA]

How many Colgate students come from New York?

I thought about this in the context of a story a few years back that until the 1970s, the majority of Ivy League students grew up within 2-3 hours of its respective campus. Harvard was mostly New Englanders, Princeton students from PA, and NJ, etc. One of the by-products of this was the ability (and popularity) for families and locals to visit campus, including for football games.

If Colgate has large numbers of students from California, Texas or Florida, chances are good their families are not coming to Hamilton for weekend games, and the generation of families that would have sent children to Colgate in the past but now go to Binghamton, Syracuse, or Stony Brook aren't coming either.

[NY Crusader 2010]

How many Colgate students come from New York?

I thought about this in the context of a story a few years back that until the 1970s, the majority of Ivy League students grew up within 2-3 hours of its respective campus. Harvard was mostly New Englanders, Princeton students from PA, and NJ, etc. One of the by-products of this was the ability (and popularity) for families and locals to visit campus, including for football games.

If Colgate has large numbers of students from California, Texas or Florida, chances are good their families are not coming to Hamilton for weekend games, and the generation of families that would have sent children to Colgate in the past but now go to Binghamton, Syracuse, or Stony Brook aren't coming either.

If I were to guess, the majority of Colgate students are still from the Mid-Atlantic and New England regions. Ivy student representation definitely much more spread out. Big reason in the drop in football attendance from the 1990's to now. Aside from Georgetown, I don't think the Patriot League schools are anywhere near as national. Sure, Holy Cross, Colgate and Bucknell might have at least 1 student from all 50 states but as far as percentages go, 75% of our classes I would guess are from within a 4 hour drive of campus. When I was there, Holy Cross was about 35% Massachusetts residents, probably about 20-25% NY/NJ/CT residents if not more. And then you had probably another 10% from elsewhere in New England. That leaves about 20% of the student body living a significant distance from school.

[Bill]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/blob:https://www.anygivensaturday.com/67f48e2b-e39f-4e88-b4da-ba0f1f62635f

[Bill]

Sorry I was attempting to post an image of Colgate student body...
27% NY
11% Mass
10% NJ
9% CA
7% CT
6% PA

You get the point....source:College Factual.com

[mainejeff]

Sorry I was attempting to post an image of Colgate student body...
27% NY
11% Mass
10% NJ
9% CA
7% CT
6% PA

You get the point....source:College Factual.com

CA is a great place to mine for college students....I'm surprised more East Coast schools don't actively recruit (students) there.

[Go...gate]

Colgate has made a far greater effort to "nationalize" its student body in the past thirty years or so.

[Bill]

And just for comparison....here is Lehigh:
27% NJ
25% PA
16% NY
6% MA
4% CT

Same source - College Factual

[Pards Rule]

And just for comparison....here is Lehigh:
27% NJ
25% PA
16% NY
6% MA
4% CT

Same source - College Factual
Do you have Lafayette, Bill? Thanks

[Bill]

Pards - here it is, same source:
21% NJ
19% NY
18% PA
8% MA
7% CT
5% CA

[Bill]

And just for giggles, here is Holy Cross:
44% MA
15% NY
10% CT
7% NJ

[caribbeanhen]

And just for comparison....here is Lehigh:
27% NJ
25% PA
16% NY
6% MA
4% CT

Same source - College Factual

interesting that Lehigh has more NJ than Pennsylvania

Is this because Jersey just doesn’t have enough schools?

[Bill]

interesting that Lehigh has more NJ than Pennsylvania

Is this because Jersey just doesn’t have enough schools?

Well...Lafayette is the same way!!
As an NJ native and Lehigh grad, I confess I'm a bit snooty about academics as I state this, but no - NJ has plenty of schools, but the only one Lehigh and Lafayette students wanted to go to was Princeton, and none of us got in xlolx
So we went to Lehigh or Lafayette.

[caribbeanhen]

Well...Lafayette is the same way!!
As an NJ native and Lehigh grad, I confess I'm a bit snooty about academics as I state this, but no - NJ has plenty of schools, but the only one Lehigh and Lafayette students wanted to go to was Princeton, and none of us got in xlolx
So we went to Lehigh or Lafayette.

I see
thanks

I haven’t checked but I would bet UD is pretty heavy on Jersey kids, I know Ryan Carty sure is getting a lot of Jersey boys on the football roster

[ngineer]

Well...Lafayette is the same way!!
As an NJ native and Lehigh grad, I confess I'm a bit snooty about academics as I state this, but no - NJ has plenty of schools, but the only one Lehigh and Lafayette students wanted to go to was Princeton, and none of us got in xlolx
So we went to Lehigh or Lafayette.

Lehigh and Laughyette are only 12 miles from each other and close to the NJ Border. A lot of students from Central to North Jersey go to the L & L's because only Princeton has similar academic 'cache'. A lot of Lehigh kids have L & L as 'backups' to the Ivies, and they are both very convenient for traveling..for most, two hours or less.

[NY Crusader 2010]

And just for giggles, here is Holy Cross:
44% MA
15% NY
10% CT
7% NJ

Wow, the in-state at HC is even higher than I thought. May have gone up post-pandemic.

[ngineer]

Yes, I would have guessed around 30%.

[ngineer]

Pards Rule---I tried sending you a pm and message said your mailbox is full and cannot accept. Time to clean out!xsmiley_wix

[DFW HOYA]

And just for giggles, here is Holy Cross:
44% MA
15% NY
10% CT
7% NJ

And that's 76% of all students coming from four states...all four of which are losing population. While not yet an existential issue, it's a challenge that the College's leadership must address now to make changes 10 and 20 years down the road, namely:

1) Is there a decreasing quantity and/or quality of liberal arts students as tuition passes $100K? What institutional changes lie ahead if Holy Cross becomes less Massachusetts or less Catholic?

2) Are there curricular changes which can thread the needle between institutional alignment and enrollment/revenue gain? Does it go all-in on STEM, business, healthcare, etc., and at what cost to the liberal arts core?

3) What are the infrastructure/capital decisions that need to be made now ensure a campus that is prepared for the 2030s? Does it expand the existing footprint, buy buildings downtown or expand elsewhere to other cities? Is a satellite campus an innovation, or a strategic miscalculation?

[ngineer]

And that's 76% of all students coming from four states...all four of which are losing population. While not yet an existential issue, it's a challenge that the College's leadership must address now to make changes 10 and 20 years down the road, namely:

1) Is there a decreasing quantity and/or quality of liberal arts students as tuition passes $100K? What institutional changes lie ahead if Holy Cross becomes less Massachusetts or less Catholic?

2) Are there curricular changes which can thread the needle between institutional alignment and enrollment/revenue gain? Does it go all-in on STEM, business, healthcare, etc., and at what cost to the liberal arts core?

3) What are the infrastructure/capital decisions that need to be made now ensure a campus that is prepared for the 2030s? Does it expand the existing footprint, buy buildings downtown or expand elsewhere to other cities? Is a satellite campus an innovation, or a strategic miscalculation?

sounds like your thinking of applying for the College's Presidency?!!xsmiley_wix

[Wolffan]

Originally Posted by Bill https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3171513#post3171513)
And just for giggles, here is Holy Cross:
44% MA
15% NY
10% CT
7% NJ

And that's 76% of all students coming from four states...all four of which are losing population. While not yet an existential issue, it's a challenge that the College's leadership must address now to make changes 10 and 20 years down the road, namely...
Some want HC to shift admissions strategy and compete with NESCAC for liberal-arts minded northeast kids who happen to want a Catholic school and others want to expand course offerings beyond the liberal arts (engineering, computer science, accounting, etc.) to better compete with BC/PC/Nova/Fordham. In neither case is a significant admissions expansion beyond the northeast (New England, NY, NJ, PA) seen as practical or critical.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

sounds like your thinking of applying for the College's Presidency?!!xsmiley_wix

He must have been reading up on strategic enrollment management (SEM)...

His points are well taken. With that said, private institutions with "significant" academic clout are likely more impervious to changing demographics. Anna Marie has far more to be concerned about....

[DFW HOYA]

He must have been reading up on strategic enrollment management (SEM)...


It's less about enrollment management and more about long term planning. Private schools are notoriously slow to see trends and to be proactive.

Birth rates don't lie, however. Between 2019 and 2037, the number of high school graduates (not merely those in the PL admissions orbit) changes as follows in these key states:

CT -18.4%
NY -14.2%
MA -10.1%
NJ -6.5%
PA -7.2%

https://www.tamus.edu/data-science/2022/10/01/predicting-the-future-of-high-school-graduates/

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It's less about enrollment management and more about long term planning. Private schools are notoriously slow to see trends and to be proactive.

Birth rates don't lie, however. Between 2019 and 2037, the number of high school graduates (not merely those in the PL admissions orbit) changes as follows in these key states:

CT -18.4%
NY -14.2%
MA -10.1%
NJ -6.5%
PA -7.2%

https://www.tamus.edu/data-science/2022/10/01/predicting-the-future-of-high-school-graduates/

SEM and institutional planning (strategic planning) are being intertwined at many institutions.

The Missouri State enrollment endeavor has been put under the microscope given the amount of institutional energy that was exerted to conduct it. Utilizing an approach such as the one at MSU naturally opened up many unwanted can of worms in terms of where the issues lie and how to fix them. I had a SEM class last semester that I found to be engaging given the cultural and social dynamics at work.

https://www.missouristate.edu/EnrollmentManagement/_Files/SEMQ-0903-Hornberger.pdf

[DFW HOYA]

SEM can have other impacts. The new president at Texas A&M told his faculty the campus actually has too many students: nearly 70,000 for a school that had just 2,100 in 1963 and somewhere around 35,000 a generation ago. They don't have enough classrooms, parking lots, dorms, eating options, not to mention the faculty investment.

It's "quick look" assessment weighed in at 73 pages.

https://today.tamu.edu/2023/10/05/interim-president-welsh-outlines-next-steps-following-quick-look-assessment/

https://cache.cloud.tamu.edu/path-forward/quick-look-assessment/Final-Quick-Look-Assessment-100423.pdf

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

SEM can have other impacts. The new president at Texas A&M told his faculty the campus actually has too many students: nearly 70,000 for a school that had just 2,100 in 1963 and somewhere around 35,000 a generation ago. They don't have enough classrooms, parking lots, dorms, eating options, not to mention the faculty investment.

It's "quick look" assessment weighed in at 73 pages.

https://today.tamu.edu/2023/10/05/interim-president-welsh-outlines-next-steps-following-quick-look-assessment/

https://cache.cloud.tamu.edu/path-forward/quick-look-assessment/Final-Quick-Look-Assessment-100423.pdf

I had a chance to spend time at Texas A&M last July. Having visited numerous large, public institutions I came away less than impressed with A&M's overall infrastructure/footprint. I believe the most recent data has A&M being home to the largest on-campus student population in the country? A&M's and UT-Austin's large enrollments should not be a surprise given the state's population and overall influence domestically and internationally. People want to be associated with wealth and power even if the academic side of things (A&M) might be a step behind other options. I'm honestly not sure what the out of state allure of A&M is? College Station has the aesthetic charm of a Central New Jersey township and it's brutally hot 7 months a year. Not to pile on but the Dixie Chicken is a moldy, smelly, dump of a dive bar. I expected more from the Aggie's most beloved watering hole.

Of all the public institutions I've been to the University of Wisconsin-Madison has the most impressive physical presence. The buildings, the campus layout, UW-Madison's relationship with the state's capital city creates a world class environment. Nevertheless, Kansas State is an impressive place in its own right! The successful athletic program is reflective of an institution, with modest resources, who hires excellent people at all levels that are capable of overcoming the schools size, location, and financial means. It is a well run machine; night and day compared to Temple.

Looping back, I think the PL institutions (except maybe Loyola) have little to nothing to worry about.

Couple pics from A&M...
https://scontent.fagc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/357778363_6826211740744532_1580504561634440080_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=bqiay1cm-iMAX9viL6-&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAwE__STQ6nNMA9a6IutCYP81bbzwemHDC2TMIJ9CqD 0Q&oe=65B09381

https://scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/357759004_6826211880744518_7264521970528184959_n.j pg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=SKoFSUak02MAX_4dQs2&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAiVgsowNwX82TUcfo3axr5vKR_8wNF2UNkWDHNMATp Vg&oe=65B1426B

[DFW HOYA]

Texas A&M 's campus will not win any architectural awards, but their students love it all the same:

https://gray-kbtx-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/v2/ILURSI5HSVAWREBVV3BQG3UNB4.jpg?auth=be6a1053307991 b18d7ca2c661dbd36cc157883601702039ac9add38eb90f971&width=800&height=450&smart=true

[Pards Rule]

Pards - here it is, same source:
21% NJ
19% NY
18% PA
8% MA
7% CT
5% CA
Thanks Bill. Wow that formerly dead East 4th St corridor (Beth Steel zone) is getting a new Sheetz under construction I saw on Thursday AM. Tried to get into Candlewood across street - sold out - so had to go to Holiday Inn Express in Hellertown PA. Wawa opened at very end of south Beth on road to Hellertown in December.

[Pards Rule]

Pards Rule---I tried sending you a pm and message said your mailbox is full and cannot accept. Time to clean out!xsmiley_wix

I have - I was just in Lehigh Valley and Stroudsburg scouting sites for Spark Auto Wash from Wed to Friday. Thank you - got the text and cleaned the box.

[Pards Rule]

It's less about enrollment management and more about long term planning. Private schools are notoriously slow to see trends and to be proactive.

Birth rates don't lie, however. Between 2019 and 2037, the number of high school graduates (not merely those in the PL admissions orbit) changes as follows in these key states:

CT -18.4%
NY -14.2%
MA -10.1%
NJ -6.5%
PA -7.2%

https://www.tamus.edu/data-science/2022/10/01/predicting-the-future-of-high-school-graduates/

Wow - significant declines

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Texas A&M 's campus will not win any architectural awards, but their students love it all the same:

https://gray-kbtx-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/v2/ILURSI5HSVAWREBVV3BQG3UNB4.jpg?auth=be6a1053307991 b18d7ca2c661dbd36cc157883601702039ac9add38eb90f971&width=800&height=450&smart=true

Campus reminded me of an Eastern European corporate park. Just brutal...

I rather spend time here...
https://ed.lehigh.edu/sites/ed.lehigh.edu/files/styles/wide_large_image/public/LU%20aerial_0.jpg?itok=cjhNZirD

Or there...
https://collegeweekends.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/image5.png

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Wow - significant declines

I'm single with no kids! I absolutely endorse/encourage singlehood! In fact, one of my research interests involves an individual's autonomy within traditional assimilation practices. Procreation will happen by default. I feel no need to contribute..lol

[caribbeanhen]

And that's 76% of all students coming from four states...all four of which are losing population. While not yet an existential issue, it's a challenge that the College's leadership must address now to make changes 10 and 20 years down the road, namely:

1) Is there a decreasing quantity and/or quality of liberal arts students as tuition passes $100K? What institutional changes lie ahead if Holy Cross becomes less Massachusetts or less Catholic?

2) Are there curricular changes which can thread the needle between institutional alignment and enrollment/revenue gain? Does it go all-in on STEM, business, healthcare, etc., and at what cost to the liberal arts core?

3) What are the infrastructure/capital decisions that need to be made now ensure a campus that is prepared for the 2030s? Does it expand the existing footprint, buy buildings downtown or expand elsewhere to other cities? Is a satellite campus an innovation, or a strategic miscalculation?


and lastly, layoffs

[Sader87]

I don't have any figures but anecdotally, I doubt HC has ever been below 40% Bay Staters ovah the years.

My uneducated guess is that was probably around 60-70% when my Dad graduated in 1950.

[bulldog10jw]

I don't have any figures but anecdotally, I doubt HC has ever been below 40% Bay Staters ovah the years.

My uneducated guess is that was probably around 60-70% when my Dad graduated in 1950.

Your dad was there when Bob Cousy was there?

[Sader87]

Your dad was there when Bob Cousy was there?

Same class....were relatively friendly there....though on different career paths, med school and the NBA.....he introduced me to the Cooz a few times at football games when I was a kid.

[Wolffan]

I don't have any figures but anecdotally, I doubt HC has ever been below 40% Bay Staters ovah the years.

My uneducated guess is that was probably around 60-70% when my Dad graduated in 1950.

“March 23, 1950 Bob Cousy '50 is named the nation's outstanding player by the National Basketball Writers of America.
1950 Holy Cross' student body is less regional, with only about half of students originating from New England. The number of students from the Mid-Atlantic (including New York City) grew to about one-third of the total population.”

And that New England (not just MA) percentage includes the large number of day students we had back in the day…

1954 Hanselman and Lehy halls are dedicated and opened as residence halls for seniors, housing a combined 360 students. The decision to build the residence halls brought the College's boarding capacity comfortably to 1,330 students. Along with 500 day students, the College aimed to maintain its post-war enrollment of 1,800.

[Sader87]

“March 23, 1950 Bob Cousy '50 is named the nation's outstanding player by the National Basketball Writers of America.
1950 Holy Cross' student body is less regional, with only about half of students originating from New England. The number of students from the Mid-Atlantic (including New York City) grew to about one-third of the total population.”

Only about 50% New England in 1950? Kinda surprised by that but I know we've always had a big greater NYC population.

BC was a much more regional school then.....I'd bet about 75% or so at least were from Massachusetts in the 1950s

[Sader87]

“March 23, 1950 Bob Cousy '50 is named the nation's outstanding player by the National Basketball Writers of America.
1950 Holy Cross' student body is less regional, with only about half of students originating from New England. The number of students from the Mid-Atlantic (including New York City) grew to about one-third of the total population.”

And that New England (not just MA) percentage includes the large number of day students we had back in the day…

1954 Hanselman and Lehy halls are dedicated and opened as residence halls for seniors, housing a combined 360 students. The decision to build the residence halls brought the College's boarding capacity comfortably to 1,330 students. Along with 500 day students, the College aimed to maintain its post-war enrollment of 1,800.

I wonder how many "day students" there are today? I'm guessing very few if any.

There was still a decent amount 50-100? when I was there in the 80s....had lockers etc in Hogan.

Conan O'Brien's Dad was a "day-hop" as they were known then from Worcester....good friend of my Dad's as they were pre-med study friends etc

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Only about 50% New England in 1950? Kinda surprised by that but I know we've always had a big greater NYC population.

BC was a much more regional school then.....I'd bet about 75% or so at least were from Massachusetts in the 1950s

BC and Villanova have followed similar paths over the last 40-50 years.

Fordham had 43,633 applicants for Fall 2023 which still blows my mind. That figure shows my age. 20% of their students come from the 5 boroughs with a significant number matriculating from Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia (DC Metro?) California, Florida and Texas.

https://www.fordham.edu/undergraduate-admission/why-fordham/admission-facts/

[Wolffan]

I wonder how many "day students" there are today? I'm guessing very few if any.

There was still a decent amount 50-100? when I was there in the 80s....had lockers etc in Hogan.

Conan O'Brien's Dad was a "day-hop" as they were known then from Worcester....good friend of my Dad's as they were pre-med study friends etc If I am extrapolating the snippets correctly, HC in 1950 was a very different place: 1,000 resident students (and a pretty good majority of them from outside New England) plus 500 day students. All male.

Now we have about 3,000 resident students (with a majority from New England) and almost no day students. And majority female.

And then there is that basketball thing....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

How were Catholic higher ed institutions in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic perceived in 1950, 1975, 2000, 2024/25? Who went and why to Holy Cross, BC, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Fordham, Seton Hall, St. Joe's, La Salle, U of Scranton?

[Sader87]

How were Catholic higher ed institutions in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic perceived in 1950, 1975, 2000, 2024/25? Who went and why to Holy Cross, BC, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Fordham, Seton Hall, St. Joe's, La Salle, U of Scranton?

Speaking for HC and BC....I think through 1950 and 1975, HC got most of the smartest kids from Catholic families/schools in the NE and NY/NJ area. BC was seen/perceived as more of a regional/Greater Boston school into the 1970s.

HC was seen then and probably still now as a good place to send your son (and now daughters) to become a doctor, lawyer or work on Wall St etc. Not really sure where it stands today, but at one time HC was seen as having one of the strongest pre-med programs in the country with a very high acceptance rate into many of the best med schools in the country.

When I was at HC in the 80s, BC and HC were seen as about equals in terms of acceptance rates but BC now is seen as being more selective.

Both have very strong alumni networking systems, particularly in the Northeast Corridor, as for another "why" people go there.

[DFW HOYA]

How were Catholic higher ed institutions in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic perceived in 1950, 1975, 2000, 2024/25? Who went and why to Holy Cross, BC, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Fordham, Seton Hall, St. Joe's, La Salle, U of Scranton?

The first two are before my time but I can speak to what I've read.

1950: Applicants are male, white, and Catholic, and most are coming out of NYC as a huge population center. Some colleges require a letter from their pastor for admission, and most if not all classes will be taught by priests. Holy Cross and Fordham form the top tier of schools, followed by St. Joe's, BC, and Georgetown. St. John's is still in Brooklyn and is a neighborhood school, as is Manhattan, LaSalle, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence, Duquesne, and the upstate NY schools, which have a healthy Catholic population.

1975: The schools are now coeducational with small minority populations. BC is growing beyond its regional base. Georgetown is on the cusp of its national admissions effort. Fordham is struggling with the perception of the Bronx deteriorating and St. John's, now in Jamaica/Queens, has overtaken it in enrollment. Many of the regional schools are still not admissions competitive, but see interest from non-Catholic students who see better academics than the nearby public options.

2000: The era of national rankings is in full force: Georgetown in top 25, BC in the top 50. BC is the only school in this discussion with an endowment over $1 billion. The Catholic population of NYC is declining, and new immigrants to the area are changing the admissions profiles of St. John's, Manhattan, and St. Peter's. Many of the regional schools are consigned by US News and Barron's to "regional universities" or in the case of Holy Cross, "liberal arts colleges". TV coverage of basketball has been good to Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall, while those schools outside the Big East orbit (St. Joe's, LaSalle, Fordham) have taken a step back in awareness outside their markets.

2024: The biggest change in the last quarter century has been the arrival of Villanova as a national Top 50 school. Four schools are over $1 billion in endowment: (Georgetown $3.3, BC $3.3, Villanova $1.1, Holy Cross $1.0). Many of the regional schools are now even more dependent on tuition-paying students so accept rates are up as yield goes down. As fewer of these schools are being led by priests and run by religious orders, this will be an ongoing discussion going forward.

[Pards Rule]

BC and Villanova have followed similar paths over the last 40-50 years.

Fordham had 43,633 applicants for Fall 2023 which still blows my mind. That figure shows my age. 20% of their students come from the 5 boroughs with a significant number matriculating from Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia (DC Metro?) California, Florida and Texas.

https://www.fordham.edu/undergraduate-admission/why-fordham/admission-facts/

WTH!? How do you even go through 43K?

[caribbeanhen]

WTH!? How do you even go through 43K?

AI

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lafayette will be playing the Pete Lembo led Buffalo Bulls to start the 2024 season!

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/39355553/sources-buffalo-targeting-pete-lembo-next-coach

[MR. CHICKEN]

...UD PLAYS 'EM.....@ HOME 2029.......AWAY 2030......AWK!

[aceinthehole]

...UD PLAYS 'EM.....@ HOME 2029.......AWAY 2030......AWK!

Central Connecticut will play at Buffalo in 2027.

[DFW HOYA]

Much is made in these threads about the selectivity of PL schools, at least as alongside the Ivy League. An examination of school-posted data illustrates how the schools manage this, and where there are decided gaps from Ivy selectivity.

Based on the Common Data Set reports of the schools, there are three distinguishing characteristics among six PL football schools (excepting Georgetown):

1. Each of the six schools leverage Early Decision to fill up to half its class with guaranteed enrollees (i.e. 100% yield).
2. Regular decision acceptance is comparable to overall accept rates, but the yields on regular admits are much lower as they consider offers elsewhere.
3. All of these schools are SAT optional, with fewer than 40% of applicants submitting SAT scores.

For example: Lehigh accepts 37% of applicants and yields 27% of its acceptances overall. It accepts 66% of early applicants and that fills 56% of the freshman class from the start. Its regular decision accept rate is also very competitive (34%) but yields just 14%--six of these seven acceptances go elsewhere.

If these schools did not use Early Decision, how would their competitiveness fare against Ivy and LAC peers? It's worth asking, since athletes account for a larger percentage of PL students, that yield is vital to these numbers.

Fordham has a different issue: it receives more applications than any of these schools (47,203) but accepts more students than all these schools combined (25,550) because it yields just 10% on admissions (for every 10 accepted, one enrolls). Its early decision applicants in 2023 represented less than one percent of its applicant pool. The only way Fordham's numbers improve are either to get more applicants, or realign among different peers to which it has an admissions advantage. If an applicant is choosing Fordham vs. BC, BC wins. If it's Fordham vs. Fairfield, Fordham wins. Schools don't want to be seen as moving away from peer schools, so expect Fordham to turn up the application engine.

[Pards Rule]

Lafayette will be playing the Pete Lembo led Buffalo Bulls to start the 2024 season!

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/39355553/sources-buffalo-targeting-pete-lembo-next-coach

Yes I will be there! I remember him. Good grief, looked him up and he has been around. Last itme I heard of him he was at Ball St., Elon before that.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yes I will be there! I remember him. Good grief, looked him up and he has been around. Last itme I heard of him he was at Ball St., Elon before that.

Pards need to make it 3 straight losses for Buffalo against the PL.

[Sader87]

Don't know if other schools fans saw this, but Sluka is off to Vegas baby. Committed to UNLV this weekend.

Randall Cunningham 2.0 xdrunkyx

[Southsider]

Don't know if other schools fans saw this, but Sluka is off to Vegas baby. Committed to UNLV this weekend.

Randall Cunningham 2.0 xdrunkyx

There will never be another Randall Cunningham!

[Pards Rule]

Pards need to make it 3 straight losses for Buffalo against the PL.

Thanks! Hope to! John will have team ready! Who were last two wins? We havent played the Bulls for years now

[caribbeanhen]

Thanks! Hope to! John will have team ready! Who were last two wins? We havent played the Bulls for years now

Fordham
Holy Cross

[Pards Rule]

There will never be another Randall Cunningham!

Nope, Still holds record for NFL punt by QB - 92 yards!!

[NY Crusader 2010]

Nope, Still holds record for NFL punt by QB - 92 yards!!

Pretty close to the record by any punter...

Sluka kicked and punted in high school, and even pooched a pretty good one at West Point this year. Just sayin'

[ngineer]

Fordham
Holy Cross

Lehigh beat Buffalo back in 2002, 37-26, that at the time extended Lehigh's regular season winning streak to 24 games! During our "Oasis Years" (as opposed to the recent 'Desert Years')xsmiley_wix

[Bill]

Lehigh beat Buffalo back in 2002, 37-26, that at the time extended Lehigh's regular season winning streak to 24 games! During our "Oasis Years" (as opposed to the recent 'Desert Years')xsmiley_wix
That night was a lot of fun.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The 2003 Colgate team also notched a win @ Buffalo. The Bulls have definitely been the Patriot League's FBS punching bag. My crystal ball sees them looking to ink series with Stonehill and Robert Morris in the near future.

[caribbeanhen]

The 2003 Colgate team also notched a win @ Buffalo. The Bulls have definitely been the Patriot League's FBS punching bag. My crystal ball sees them looking to ink series with Stonehill and Robert Morris in the near future.

funny stuff

[Go...gate]

The 2003 Colgate team also notched a win @ Buffalo. The Bulls have definitely been the Patriot League's FBS punching bag. My crystal ball sees them looking to ink series with Stonehill and Robert Morris in the near future.

That was a very important win for us that season.

[Pards Rule]

Anyone know the next time Pards play Penn - either there or Easton? Im ready to add one to the W column vs Ivies, especially the Penn!

[Pards Rule]

Anyone please - I was just reminded of this unusual stat. Im not sure of year - late 90s? - but L-L game LC starter went out with injury. Backup - who - came in and on first play threw like a 70 year TD and then went to sideline as starter was OK. Anyone remember? Grav was it one of your games?

[gravalico]

Anyone please - I was just reminded of this unusual stat. Im not sure of year - late 90s? - but L-L game LC starter went out with injury. Backup - who - came in and on first play threw like a 70 year TD and then went to sideline as starter was OK. Anyone remember? Grav was it one of your games?We played Penn at Franklin Field my Freshman year. They beat us. I don't recall any extra drama associated with the game though.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[Pards Rule]

We played Penn at Franklin Field my Freshman year. They beat us. I don't recall any extra drama associated with the game though.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk
Thanks. That was a Lehigh-Lafayette game where the guy went 1-1-1

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks. That was a Lehigh-Lafayette game where the guy went 1-1-1

You may be thinking of Brian Buczek. His stat line in I think 1998 was 1-1 with a long TD. Mike Palos was the starter. It wasn’t the first play of the game however, it was a garbage time TD.

[ngineer]

Hearsay out of Bethlehem is that Lembo and Cahill have spoken and a game in Buffalo may be on the horizon in a year or two.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Hearsay out of Bethlehem is that Lembo and Cahill have spoken and a game in Buffalo may be on the horizon in a year or two.

Sweet! I would like to see this come to fruition. Army, Buffalo, Temple, UConn, UMass, Duke, Wake Forest, the other Eastern Ohio MAC schools, etc. are the type of FBS programs Lehigh should be playing when they opt to step up in class. And it doesn't have to be every year.....

I would like to see a game with Rutgers too if Lehigh shows they have the capacity to return to national relevancy, relatively speaking....

[DFW HOYA]

Sweet! I would like to see this come to fruition. Army, Buffalo, Temple, UConn, UMass, Duke, Wake Forest, the other Eastern Ohio MAC schools, etc. are the type of FBS programs Lehigh should be playing when they opt to step up in class. And it doesn't have to be every year.....

I would like to see a game with Rutgers too if Lehigh shows they have the capacity to return to national relevancy, relatively speaking....

Army, Buffalo, Temple, UConn, UMass, Duke, Wake Forest, the other Eastern Ohio MAC schools, etc. are the type of FBS programs Georgetown should be playing when they opt to step up in class. Instead, here's what they get: Marist, Stonehill, Brown, and more Marist.

[Pards Rule]

You may be thinking of Brian Buczek. His stat line in I think 1998 was 1-1 with a long TD. Mike Palos was the starter. It wasn’t the first play of the game however, it was a garbage time TD.

That rings a bell. I was there. It wasnt first play of game but I think it was actually early third? Palos took a stinger, Buczek threw long TD and Palos came back in. Wasnt even close that game

[Pards Rule]

Good grief - googled Brian Buczek and found he passed in June 2017. RIP.

[bonarae]

Army, Buffalo, Temple, UConn, UMass, Duke, Wake Forest, the other Eastern Ohio MAC schools, etc. are the type of FBS programs Georgetown should be playing when they opt to step up in class. Instead, here's what they get: Marist, Stonehill, Brown, and more Marist.

As I have said in another thread - I'm sick and tired of Georgetown still struggling to schedule good programs by moving beyond the Alleghenies and Potomac. Will they ever learn or are they better off dropping football?

[pardfan]

Lafayette NSD show very inspiring. This coach and his staff seem to really have a plan. I think LC is going to be trouble for any opponent next year. (Even got a kickoff guy who can put it in the endzone. Punting--an even bigger weakness--was not mentioned during the telecast. Ugh.)

[Go...gate]

As I have said in another thread - I'm sick and tired of Georgetown still struggling to schedule good programs by moving beyond the Alleghenies and Potomac. Will they ever learn or are they better off dropping football?

As much as I appreciate having Georgetown in the conference, I wish they would do more to come into line with the approach of other conference members to scholarships/equivalencies/merit aid.

[MR. CHICKEN]

33282

.....SEEMS...TA DUH CHICKEN.......PATSIES....MIGHT WANNA WORRY.....HOW G-TOWN BEATS FORDHAM/LEHIGH/BUCKNELL.....AN' 10 POINT LOSSES TA 'GATE/LAFFY.....WHIFF NO SKOLLIES.......&.......ALL THOSE SKOOLS HAVE DUH FULL COMPLIMENT......JES' SAYIN'.......xwhistlex.....BUK-BUK-BUK-BRAWK!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As much as I appreciate having Georgetown in the conference, I wish they would do more to come into line with the approach of other conference members to scholarships/equivalencies/merit aid.

At this point Bucknell and Georgetown football are two peas in a pod. The specifics are nuanced to each institution but the end result is the same. Ironically, it reminds me of Temple's and Rutger's woes in the Big East from the conference's inception through the early 2000s. Reason(s) being?,While both lacked institutional commitment, one was a full member, the other was an associate member with a terrible stadium/facilities, questionable financial allocation, awful alumni support and so one and so forth....

All this said, Georgetown has been a better program than Lehigh the last 4-5 years....

[The Boogie Down]

The first two are before my time but I can speak to what I've read.

1950: Applicants are male, white, and Catholic, and most are coming out of NYC as a huge population center. Some colleges require a letter from their pastor for admission, and most if not all classes will be taught by priests. Holy Cross and Fordham form the top tier of schools, followed by St. Joe's, BC, and Georgetown. St. John's is still in Brooklyn and is a neighborhood school, as is Manhattan, LaSalle, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence, Duquesne, and the upstate NY schools, which have a healthy Catholic population.

1975: The schools are now coeducational with small minority populations. BC is growing beyond its regional base. Georgetown is on the cusp of its national admissions effort. Fordham is struggling with the perception of the Bronx deteriorating and St. John's, now in Jamaica/Queens, has overtaken it in enrollment. Many of the regional schools are still not admissions competitive, but see interest from non-Catholic students who see better academics than the nearby public options.

2000: The era of national rankings is in full force: Georgetown in top 25, BC in the top 50. BC is the only school in this discussion with an endowment over $1 billion. The Catholic population of NYC is declining, and new immigrants to the area are changing the admissions profiles of St. John's, Manhattan, and St. Peter's. Many of the regional schools are consigned by US News and Barron's to "regional universities" or in the case of Holy Cross, "liberal arts colleges". TV coverage of basketball has been good to Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall, while those schools outside the Big East orbit (St. Joe's, LaSalle, Fordham) have taken a step back in awareness outside their markets.

2024: The biggest change in the last quarter century has been the arrival of Villanova as a national Top 50 school. Four schools are over $1 billion in endowment: (Georgetown $3.3, BC $3.3, Villanova $1.1, Holy Cross $1.0). Many of the regional schools are now even more dependent on tuition-paying students so accept rates are up as yield goes down. As fewer of these schools are being led by priests and run by religious orders, this will be an ongoing discussion going forward.

Excellent post, DFW. Many thanks! Unfortunately, I gotta spread the recs around but again, great job. One question tho...

Back in the day St. Joe's was really thought of that highly? Higher than Villanova?

I find that hard to believe. I'm not saying it wasn't true, just saying it's hard to believe.

I do know for certain however that at no time was Villanova in the same category w/what at the time was St. John's College in Brooklyn. Back in the day St. John's consisted of just two buildings (and one was for the Prep!) in Bed-Stuy and even then Bed-Stuy was a "do or die" type of place. Since moving to their plush green campus in Queens in 1957 (same year the Dodgers skipped town), St. John's has become much bigger. That move alone automatically elevated them from being considered a neighborhood school, like say LIU (Brooklyn) and St. Francis (Brooklyn). Even so, their academic reputation hasn't changed all that much until very recently. According to USNWR they've been ticking upwards but are still far behind the likes of Georgetown, BC, HC, Villanova and Fordham.

As for smaller schools, like Manhattan, St. Peter's and LaSalle, ehhh, from what I've read online, its been more bad than good. Larger schools like Providence and Seton Hall have benefitted from being in the Big East. I agree that those who were never invited, like Duquesne and St. Joe's have taken a step back. Then there's HC... Certainly blew it when they had the chance back in 1979. Certainly lost a step to BC. Still alotta athletic potential tho. I can see HC joining the A-10 before any other school in the Northeast. Aside from Fordham (NYC market) and Villanova, I can also see HC jumping to the FBS before any other other school in the Northeast too. Not saying either ever happens, especially FBS, but a foundation is there.

[Sader87]

From most accounts, a tremendous recruiting class for HC this year. Was a bit worried with Ray-Bans headed to JMU, but it seems like Curran&staff kept and added a bit to this year's signing class. A few 3 star recruits, Tennessee Gatorade Player of the Year etc.

Encouraging news with the coaching change this year.

[RichH2]

Lehigh's class is huge and deep. Cahill an staff have succeeded rather spectacularly. 32 signers and 2 transfers. A lot of speed and athleticism.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh's class is huge and deep. Cahill an staff have succeeded rather spectacularly. 32 signers and 2 transfers. A lot of speed and athleticism.

I agree Rich! Now it comes down to the coaching staff's ability to maximize the talent and then retain it. Granted, I believe the recent talent level should have kept the program hovering around .500 with better coaching so my optimism has to be tempered until Cahill and Company start taking obvious steps in that direction.

[LUHawker]

At this point Bucknell and Georgetown football are two peas in a pod. The specifics are nuanced to each institution but the end result is the same. Ironically, it reminds me of Temple's and Rutger's woes in the Big East from the conference's inception through the early 2000s. Reason(s) being?,While both lacked institutional commitment, one was a full member, the other was an associate member with a terrible stadium/facilities, questionable financial allocation, awful alumni support and so one and so forth....

All this said, Georgetown has been a better program than Lehigh the last 4-5 years....

Owl - that is a very low bar to clear. I'm sure it was a nice thing to do (and perhaps there were some legal/HR restrictions), but AD Sterrett screwed the pooch by keeping Andy Cohen as head coach during his obvious decline (I say obvious because anyone watching could see something was off. I certainly didn't know the diagnosis, but it was not hard to see) and then made a deteriorating situation worse by hiring Gilmore. The good news is that Cahill 'seems' to be making the right moves (his OC choice notwithstanding and the jury is still out, but trending towards conviction) and Lehigh has generally good institutional support to return it to winning and relevance.

[RichH2]

I agree Rich! Now it comes down to the coaching staff's ability to maximize the talent and then retain it. Granted, I believe the recent talent level should have kept the program hovering around .500 with better coaching so my optimism has to be tempered until Cahill and Company start taking obvious steps in that direction.

I give Cahill a pass for last season. Agree there was ample talent but an O can usually only go as far as the OL takes them. Losing Padezanin at OC for most of the season disrupted the OL all season. While I have my reservations about Hunt,the key will be the ability of thevOL coaches to build a cohesive unit. We will be even younger than last year but but much faster and talented.

[Gater]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here but heard from Colgate coaches last year that PL roster limits were being raised from 90 to 100. Huge difference in recruiting having those extra ten slots--more bodies for look teams, more chances to develop a player and have guys with experience when you lose people to the portal.

[RichH2]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here but heard from Colgate coaches last year that PL roster limits were being raised from 90 to 100. Huge difference in recruiting having those extra ten slots--more bodies for look teams, more chances to develop a player and have guys with experience when you lose people to the portal.

Wow. About time. Great news. Now about the schollie cap...???🏈👀👀

[DFW HOYA]

Wow. About time. Great news. Now about the schollie cap...???

"There are no Patriot League limitations that would prevent any of our programs from awarding the FCS maximum of 63 equivalencies in athletics scholarship support,” Ryan Sakamoto, the Patriot League’s assistant commissioner for communications, wrote in an email response to an inquiry from The Times-Dispatch."

(Georgetown limitations excepted.)

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/w-m-holds-tight-to-caa-affiliation-as-league-continues-to-evolve/article_e073dda2-ae55-11ee-8ab2-037dcf124033.html

[RichH2]

"There are no Patriot League limitations that would prevent any of our programs from awarding the FCS maximum of 63 equivalencies in athletics scholarship support,” Ryan Sakamoto, the Patriot League’s assistant commissioner for communications, wrote in an email response to an inquiry from The Times-Dispatch."

(Georgetown limitations excepted.)

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/w-m-holds-tight-to-caa-affiliation-as-league-continues-to-evolve/article_e073dda2-ae55-11ee-8ab2-037dcf124033.html

The last time you posted this,I checked the PL By-Laws. Still had the number at 60. Is he saying that it has been amended. The Covid exemption allowing 63 only applies to those classes. Once those classes are gone so is the exemption

[DFW HOYA]

The last time you posted this,I checked the PL By-Laws. Still had the number at 60. Is he saying that it has been amended. The Covid exemption allowing 63 only applies to those classes. Once those classes are gone so is the exemption

It's a fair question--one would presume the assistant director of the league would know the bylaws, assuming they have been modified. I'm not sure why he would have said it if it was going away.

[RichH2]

It's a fair question--one would presume the assistant director of the league would know the bylaws, assuming they have been modified. I'm not sure why he would have said it if it was going away.
Just went back to PL operational guidelines,63 is indeed the max now starting this year 24/25.

[RichH2]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here but heard from Colgate coaches last year that PL roster limits were being raised from 90 to 100. Huge difference in recruiting having those extra ten slots--more bodies for look teams, more chances to develop a player and have guys with experience when you lose people to the portal.

The roster cap has been eliminated altogether as of nowper PL amendment of the By Laws.

[DFW HOYA]

Just went back to PL operational guidelines,63 is indeed the max now starting this year 24/25.

And the minimum is, well... xbangx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've been working for years on this... and they just tweeted it out... xlolx

Good on the league. They didn't feel a need to announce it.


(https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1755687629905916279)https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1755697853245096408

[ngineer]

33282

.....SEEMS...TA DUH CHICKEN.......PATSIES....MIGHT WANNA WORRY.....HOW G-TOWN BEATS FORDHAM/LEHIGH/BUCKNELL.....AN' 10 POINT LOSSES TA 'GATE/LAFFY.....WHIFF NO SKOLLIES.......&.......ALL THOSE SKOOLS HAVE DUH FULL COMPLIMENT......JES' SAYIN'.......xwhistlex.....BUK-BUK-BUK-BRAWK!

I don't think scholarships is the answer. I you have a robust grant in aid program, you can do just as well, or better. Many in the PL were adamant that scholarships were not the answer, just a more liberal grant in aid and not be limited to 60 scholarships and rosters.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think scholarships is the answer. I you have a robust grant in aid program, you can do just as well, or better. Many in the PL were adamant that scholarships were not the answer, just a more liberal grant in aid and not be limited to 60 scholarships and rosters.

The roster size issue IMO was the real killer. 60 vs. 63 could mean maybe 3 more scholarship athletes or 6 extra 1/2 scholarships or something, but capping a roster size in August was a nightmare. Injuries would give little depth at a lot of positions, and it's not like this is the NFL where a team can just look in free agency in October because the entire starting secondary is out. You had what you had, basically. Those extra 10-15 walk ons in August make a big difference not just in depth but simulating opponents, etc. Some of them even can earn scholarships if they prove themselves. It happens.

I don't think scholarships were the "problem" as much as I think the roster caps were - and they came at the same time as scholarships.

Scholarships at the end of the day are just aid. Whether they came through the financial aid office or are called a "scholarship" they were and are sliced and diced as they always have been, just under control of the athletic department now and not the financial aid office.

But the roster caps forced the schools to limit walk-ons IMO. That's a much bigger deal. If you're up against a hard limit you can't really encourage a walk on, get to 91 athletes and then say "oops, sorry". Before, nobody bothered counting, so if 100 kids wanted to try to play, they could. I'm pretty sure Lehigh in some of their golden 90s-2000 years had close to 100 athletes on the roster at some points.

[Go...gate]

I've been working for years on this... and they just tweeted it out... xlolx

Good on the league. They didn't feel a need to announce it.


(https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1755687629905916279)https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1755697853245096408

So the PL is now at the NCAA FCS maximum?

[Go...gate]

LFN, are you still on Twitter? I can't seem to connect with you.

Guess Musk is not a PL fan. :D

[Go...gate]

The roster size issue IMO was the real killer. 60 vs. 63 could mean maybe 3 more scholarship athletes or 6 extra 1/2 scholarships or something, but capping a roster size in August was a nightmare. Injuries would give little depth at a lot of positions, and it's not like this is the NFL where a team can just look in free agency in October because the entire starting secondary is out. You had what you had, basically. Those extra 10-15 walk ons in August make a big difference not just in depth but simulating opponents, etc. Some of them even can earn scholarships if they prove themselves. It happens.

I don't think scholarships were the "problem" as much as I think the roster caps were - and they came at the same time as scholarships.

Scholarships at the end of the day are just aid. Whether they came through the financial aid office or are called a "scholarship" they were and are sliced and diced as they always have been, just under control of the athletic department now and not the financial aid office.

But the roster caps forced the schools to limit walk-ons IMO. That's a much bigger deal. If you're up against a hard limit you can't really encourage a walk on, get to 91 athletes and then say "oops, sorry". Before, nobody bothered counting, so if 100 kids wanted to try to play, they could. I'm pretty sure Lehigh in some of their golden 90s-2000 years had close to 100 athletes on the roster at some points.

Hope someone from Villanova is following this.

[ngineer]

The roster size issue IMO was the real killer. 60 vs. 63 could mean maybe 3 more scholarship athletes or 6 extra 1/2 scholarships or something, but capping a roster size in August was a nightmare. Injuries would give little depth at a lot of positions, and it's not like this is the NFL where a team can just look in free agency in October because the entire starting secondary is out. You had what you had, basically. Those extra 10-15 walk ons in August make a big difference not just in depth but simulating opponents, etc. Some of them even can earn scholarships if they prove themselves. It happens.

I don't think scholarships were the "problem" as much as I think the roster caps were - and they came at the same time as scholarships.

Scholarships at the end of the day are just aid. Whether they came through the financial aid office or are called a "scholarship" they were and are sliced and diced as they always have been, just under control of the athletic department now and not the financial aid office.

But the roster caps forced the schools to limit walk-ons IMO. That's a much bigger deal. If you're up against a hard limit you can't really encourage a walk on, get to 91 athletes and then say "oops, sorry". Before, nobody bothered counting, so if 100 kids wanted to try to play, they could. I'm pretty sure Lehigh in some of their golden 90s-2000 years had close to 100 athletes on the roster at some points.

Yes! Depth has been the #1 problem for Lehigh and the PL. This is magnified when we play schools with unlimited rosters i.e. Princeton, Yale, etc. with well over 100. The added depth gives a much better practice. With injuries, as all teams suffer, you need a lot of additional bodies to have good, effective practices. This is the exact problem Fred Dunlap raised 20 years ago when the issue was being debated.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't think scholarships is the answer. I you have a robust grant in aid program, you can do just as well, or better. Many in the PL were adamant that scholarships were not the answer, just a more liberal grant in aid and not be limited to 60 scholarships and rosters.

How do the two schools in question accomplish this?

[Franks Tanks]

Yes! Depth has been the #1 problem for Lehigh and the PL. This is magnified when we play schools with unlimited rosters i.e. Princeton, Yale, etc. with well over 100. The added depth gives a much better practice. With injuries, as all teams suffer, you need a lot of additional bodies to have good, effective practices. This is the exact problem Fred Dunlap raised 20 years ago when the issue was being debated.

Maybe we need to stop being so concerned about the Ivies. They are the only conference in D1 that operates under such conditions. They have cache and national reach we can only dream about. Not too many kids growing up in Texas or Oregon are dreaming of attending Lafayette College since childhood. HYP will get players if they offer them a free bagel every Tuesday.

Were a full scholarship FCS conference and should strive to compete as best we can in FCS.

[Gater]

No roster limits is huge. Ivies have had 20-30 more players each year than PL teams. Colgate is free if your parents make under 80k and costs a percentage of income for families making under 175k. With aggressive aid packages you can have way more than 63 players not paying to go to school. Stretch your scholarship dollar further by recruiting in parts of the country where salaries are lower. I heard second hand back in the day that former Colgate coach Fred Dunlap thought smaller rosters could hurt more than scholarships would help. Impossible to know where the league would be if it hadn't gone scholarship (I think it would be worse off) but this is the best of both worlds.

Also, not sure how much Colgate's president Casey being head of the PL right now is helping, but he is very pro not losing. Was Notre Dame male student athlete of the year when he was there. For sure know that he's looking to make PL football better. Whether or not this is his doing, hopefully there's more to come.

[Fordham]

Fordham feeling very good about the recruiting class. Recruiting certainly continues to be the greatest strength of Conlin's staff along with offensive production imo. Sounds like HC did not miss a beat although a ton of experience is walking out the door. Lafayette and Lehigh seem to have raised their game, talent wise. Any word on the classes at Colgate, Bucknell or Gtown? Seems like the PL is on the upswing and the removal of roster caps will only accelerate that imo. Huge news (and good to see LFN back!)

[Southsider]

Maybe we need to stop being so concerned about the Ivies. They are the only conference in D1 that operates under such conditions. They have cache and national reach we can only dream about. Not too many kids growing up in Texas or Oregon are dreaming of attending Lafayette College since childhood. HYP will get players if they offer them a free bagel every Tuesday.

Were a full scholarship FCS conference and should strive to compete as best we can in FCS.

Many of us have been saying this for years. PL needs to move on from their wanna be position

[Sader87]

Actually I think the PL is in a good position to be a "wanna-be" Ivy these days.....we have much of what the Ivy has academically but can build on that by giving scholarships, play in the playoffs. play FBS teams etc....I think the the PL is actually very well situated in this NIL/transfer portal world. HC is killing it recruiting-wise marketing itself as such.

[Go...gate]

Actually I think the PL is in a good position to be a "wanna-be" Ivy these days.....we have much of what the Ivy has academically but can build on that by giving scholarships, play in the playoffs. play FBS teams etc....I think the the PL is actually very well situated in this NIL/transfer portal world. HC is killing it recruiting-wise marketing itself as such.

Agreed.

[Go...gate]

How do the two schools in question accomplish this?

It is not that much of a stretch for Bucknell, which, I understand, offers fewer scholarships and equivalencies but is still a Division I "counter".

OTOH, Georgetown does not offer scholarships and, as indicated above, does not disclose what equivalencies it offers.

[DFW HOYA]

It is not that much of a stretch for Bucknell, which, I understand, offers fewer scholarships and equivalencies but is still a Division I "counter".

OTOH, Georgetown does not offer scholarships and, as indicated above, does not disclose what equivalencies it offers.

The original question wasn't about scholarships, but what was called a "liberal grant in aid" program.


I don't think scholarships is the answer. I you have a robust grant in aid program, you can do just as well, or better. Many in the PL were adamant that scholarships were not the answer, just a more liberal grant in aid and not be limited to 60 scholarships and rosters.

[Pards Rule]

I wish we could play Penn this year...convinced a W

[ngineer]

No roster limits is huge. Ivies have had 20-30 more players each year than PL teams. Colgate is free if your parents make under 80k and costs a percentage of income for families making under 175k. With aggressive aid packages you can have way more than 63 players not paying to go to school. Stretch your scholarship dollar further by recruiting in parts of the country where salaries are lower. I heard second hand back in the day that former Colgate coach Fred Dunlap thought smaller rosters could hurt more than scholarships would help. Impossible to know where the league would be if it hadn't gone scholarship (I think it would be worse off) but this is the best of both worlds.

Also, not sure how much Colgate's president Casey being head of the PL right now is helping, but he is very pro not losing. Was Notre Dame male student athlete of the year when he was there. For sure know that he's looking to make PL football better. Whether or not this is his doing, hopefully there's more to come.

That's exactly what I was referring to up above. And, regarding Georgetown, they are the one PL school in football that does have a a 'national cache' that could be used in recruiting if they were willing to put $ into the program. Pete Lembo (a Hoya graduate) told me years ago that he saw Georgetown as a 'sleeping giant' if the administration changed its view on football.

[bonarae]

That's exactly what I was referring to up above. And, regarding Georgetown, they are the one PL school in football that does have a a 'national cache' that could be used in recruiting if they were willing to put $ into the program. Pete Lembo (a Hoya graduate) told me years ago that he saw Georgetown as a 'sleeping giant' if the administration changed its view on football.

I'd rather see Georgetown's football curtain fall down so that we can rest / take a breather from talking about them.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I'd rather see Georgetown's football curtain fall down so that we can rest / take a breather from talking about them.


33287



.......................xpopcornx.............BRAWK !

[DFW HOYA]

I'd rather see Georgetown's football curtain fall down so that we can rest / take a breather from talking about them.

If the Patriot League doesn't want them, a simple majority of presidents mandates a 63 scholarship minimum and sends them on their way. Absent that, Georgetown and Bucknell are good conversation as it relates to an offseason thread.