Mitchell Report

[TheValleyRaider]

Figured someone was going to post this up sometime tomorrow (or today, really), when the Mitchell Report gets revealed to the public.

As the names that Mitchell has compiled get shown to the world, I figured I would get my thoughts out there before rather than after.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't care who's name will be in the report, nor do I think any of them matter

Yes, I will watch the revealing of the names, yes I am curious to see what was uncovered. I very much doubt that anything new will be revealed that was not already known or could have been guessed.

I am a fan not only of the Yankees, but of baseball the game. If pressed on the question, I think Steroids and other such things are wrong and should be banned from the game. I do not think any of the players named in the report should face any kind of suspension or punishment from the League. This has turned into too much of a witch hunt, and less of an opportunity to understand a change in the game.

I do not fault Senator Mitchell. I am certain he has given his all to this job, and carried out his task to the best of his abilities in a fair and impartial manner. What I worry about most is that this will turn into another excuse for calls of suspensions and asterisks.

The true effects of Steroids may never be fully known. Barry Bonds does not deserve an asterisk for his home run records any more than Babe Ruth's (which came at a time when no Black players were allowed in the Majors) or Roger Maris' (which came both in an expansion year and the first year of the 162-game regular season).

I hope that baseball fans will accept these names for what they are, signs of a game gone slightly awry, but not destroyed. They will not have been the only ones using, nor is their mention any sort of guarantee that indeed they were doing so.

It is time for Major League Baseball and the Players Association to own up to their complicity in allowing these kinds of activities to take place. They should take the opportunity to work harder for better testing and then not dwell on past transgressions. My biggest fear, which unfortunately may be the most likely to play out, is that they will not, leaving baseball and its many fans with more of the same.

I will be watching tomorrow, and I'll probably have more comments afterwards, but really, I wanted to be on the record as saying that whatever happens, however many Yankees (or players from other teams) are named, it still won't change anything from the past.

And if nothing else, Pitchers and Catchers will still report in 65 days xpeacex

[Peems]

Well said. But I do disagree on the naming of names. I do care about the names being named and the affect that it will have on the game. What happens if A Rod and Big Papi and Pujols are all named? Baseball is in for some hurt no matter what happens. Just hold on to your butts...

[OB55]

Baseball is already hurt Peems, it's just that ardent fans are if not oblivious to that fact, unwilling to accept it. This is getting huge play this morning on all sports talk shows apparently many expect a bombshell.

America's pass time has to clean it's self up before it's image will, not the other way around. Performance enhancing drugs and enhancers can not be accepted, it just sends the wrong message to far too many impressionable minds.

[BlueHen86]

Baseball is run by idiots.

Greedy owners that don't care about the fans.
Greedy players that don't care about the fans.
Greedy agents that don't care about the fans.

There are some exceptions, but not enough.

[OL FU]

I don't care either. But that is because I lost interest in pro sports 15+ years ago because of things like this. I don't dislike professional athletes. I have more respect for them than the owners that look the other way because they are making money from doping athletes. I just simply don't care one way or the other. Unfortunately for the reputation of the sport, I am in the minority. Fortunately, for the survival of the sport I am in the minority.

[LacesOut]

I really don't care who does what illegal substance in any sport, let alone baseball. I've always said to just make anything and everything legal and then see who is the best, whether it's football, track and field, swimming, cycling, etc., as opposed to having just a handfull of guys/gals who use while many others are not.

I think this MLB report will name quite a few ex-baseball players, some big names, some not.

[bamamountaineer1013]

Have they set a specific time to when the report will be released

[UNHWildCats]

mlbtraderumors.com, a very good site, says his source tells him that the Yankees are in for a very bad day, but that Jeter and Rivera will not be in the report....

[UNHWildCats]

Have they set a specific time to when the report will be released
Mitchell 2PM news cnference report on mlb.com shortly there after.

[Gil Dobie]

I'm a concerned about a couple Detroit Tigers All-Stars. :(

[OB55]

Must admit, I spend very little time glued in front of the tube watching any professional sports. College sports get a lot of my attention, and I will go out of my way to watch a FCS, D-II, D-III, NAIA telecast over the usual Ohio State, USC, Miami, Nebraska stuff.

I wonder why that is? xconfusedx

[UNHWildCats]

I'm a concerned about a couple Detroit Tigers All-Stars. :(
Pudge, Ordonez and Sheff?

[dbackjon]

A hefty segment of the report, which cost Major League Baseball at least $20 million and may have been delivered to Selig's top people as early as Monday, will center on the testimony of former Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski, according to sources. Mitchell appears to have hit the mother lode with the previously unknown Radomski, who was convicted for two felonies involving the sale of steroids to big leaguers from 1995 through 2005. Part of Radomski's agreement with federal prosecutors included full cooperation with Mitchell's probe

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/12/12/mitchell.report/index.html?eref=T1

Maybe New York should be worried...

[UNHWildCats]

For what its worth, i wouldnt be surprised if Mo Vaughn and Nomar Garciaparra are listed

[Gil Dobie]

Pudge, Ordonez and Sheff?

That's a good list of concerns :(

I think National League connections will be a key to the list.

[OB55]

Any chance this guy will be mentioned?

http://www.dontclickme.com/media/arnold-schwarzenegger-big_muscle.jpg

[Gil Dobie]

Roger Clemens will be named - ESPN Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153129)

[tribe_pride]

I really don't care who does what illegal substance in any sport, let alone baseball. I've always said to just make anything and everything legal and then see who is the best, whether it's football, track and field, swimming, cycling, etc., as opposed to having just a handfull of guys/gals who use while many others are not.


The problem I have with this is that they are illegal for any of us to use a lot of these drugs. Why should athletes be exempted?

[Gil Dobie]

The problem I have with this is that they are illegal for any of us to use a lot of these drugs. Why should athletes be exempted?

They are not exactly good for you health either. Smoking is banned, trans-fats are banned, why should performance enhancing substances be legal?

[UNHWildCats]

9:09am: The latest is from Bob Klapisch (http://northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjgmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcyMzMwNDEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2), who reports that no Mets on the current 40-man roster (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=nym) are in the report. So people can stop randomly throwing Carlos Delgado's name about.

[UNHWildCats]

NY Daily News says Pettitte is listed..... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/12/13/2007-12-13_source_yankees_clemens_pettitte_named_in.html

[BlueHen86]

I'm wondering if any Phillies or recent ex-Phillies show up.xchinscratchx

[grizband]

I wonder if anyone on the Giants will be named....xwhistlex

[FCS Preview]

from another website, this may not be complete or completely accurate...but the leaked list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

[tribe_pride]

9:09am: The latest is from Bob Klapisch (http://northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjgmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcyMzMwNDEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2), who reports that no Mets on the current 40-man roster (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=nym) are in the report. So people can stop randomly throwing Carlos Delgado's name about.

Interesting so Schoneweis is not on the list. He was one of the guys tied to (but never suspended for) the Florida steroids thing.

[FCS Preview]

Interesting so Schoneweis is not on the list. He was one of the guys tied to (but never suspended for) the Florida steroids thing.

He's on the list I was sent...

[HIU 93]

from another website, this may not be complete or completely accurate...but the leaked list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

I guess you folks that want Bonds tarred and feathered have a lot more people to go after now- or will the excuses begin to pile up about why you can't go after all these other folks as well?

[tribe_pride]

If that list is accurate looks like at least 2 current Mets (castro and schoneweis) and Klapisch sources are off.

[spelunker64]

What about Troy Glaus?

[hebmskebm]

I guess you folks that want Bonds tarred and feathered have a lot more people to go after now- or will the excuses begin to pile up about why you can't go after all these other folks as well?

I agree with your sentiment, and I agree many people made him the scapegoat for a leagewide issue that went far past him, but dont expect anyone to feel the least bit bad for Bonds. Nobody made him lie under oath; his current problems are of his own making.

[FCS Preview]

I guess you folks that want Bonds tarred and feathered have a lot more people to go after now- or will the excuses begin to pile up about why you can't go after all these other folks as well?

None of those other players hold:

1) All-time record for HR in a season
2) All-time record for HR in a career.

Maybe we can give the single-season record back to Maris, and the career mark back to Aaron.

[whitey]

If that list is accurate looks like at least 2 current Mets (castro and schoneweis) and Klapisch sources are off.

I don't believe the Klapisch source. I have a hard time believe the Mitchell Report doesn't include any current Mets, simply because of the Schoeneweis implications. I would be really surprised if he isn't in the Report. Castro? I dunno. That sounds like a reach to me. I doubt any other Mets besides Schoeneweis will be on the report, but a bunch of former Mets surely will be.

Maybe we should all guess which current/former players from our favorite teams will be on the report and then see how close we were later this afternoon?

Current Mets: Scott Schoeneweis
Former Mets: Guillermo Mota (duh), Edgardo Alfonzo, Todd Hundley, Bobby Bonilla, Armando Benetiz, Mo Vaughan

[JoltinJoe]

Apparently Red Sox director George Mitchell is prepared to out only one current Red Sox -- Jason Varitek.

This is going to be a major credibility issue. How dumb was it to put Mitchell in charge?

[UNHWildCats]

Jason Varitek is probably the most heartbreaking name that could be released of current Sox players... They also hit a group of some of the most popular former Sox players as well....hardly think you can still claim bias for the Sox.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

None of those other players hold:

1) All-time record for HR in a season
2) All-time record for HR in a career.

Maybe we can give the single-season record back to Maris, and the career mark back to Aaron.

CORRECT!

As for the report... we shall see, but quite frankly if the only one Red Sox player is listed the report will be called in to question.

Thing is, most of these guys on the list have either been punished for it, or all but admitted it. Bret Boone leaps to mind with this... he all but admitted it as his numbers plummeted once testing began.

I also find it interesting that a lot of these guys had their careers cut short due to injury... i suspect this is not a coincidence.

[JoltinJoe]

Jason Varitek is probably the most heartbreaking name that could be released of current Sox players... They also hit a group of some of the most popular former Sox players as well....hardly think you can still claim bias for the Sox.

Johnny Damon -- despised in Boston these days.
Roger Clemens -- despised in Boston these days.
Nomar Garciapparra -- not nearly as popular, many actively dislike him.

Ortiz? Not named?

One current Sox player?

You don't think this will raise credibility issues? And naming players based on the word of clubhouse snitches and others under threat of indictment? I hope Mitchell has better sources than that.

I'd guess many players named will threaten legal action.

This is a PR nightmare all the way around for baseball, and having a director from a team that seems to be getting off light is just one of the issues.

(Also, Aaron Boone? Honestly, that one strikes me as pure BS. The guy is still as skinny as a teenager).

[BlueHen86]

I guess you folks that want Bonds tarred and feathered have a lot more people to go after now- or will the excuses begin to pile up about why you can't go after all these other folks as well?

I think the reason that the bulleye on Bonds is so big is that he holds some of the most prestigious records in baseball. It also doesn't help that he is alleged to be a first class jerk. I still think he belongs in the Hall of Fame (unlike Mark McGwire), but I'd be happier if Maris still held the single season HR record and Aaron still held the career HR record.

[UNHWildCats]

so just cause Ortiz isnt named, the report is bull**** because a sox board member ran the investigation?

Maybe Ortiz never used steroids and thats why he's not named.

[UNHWildCats]

Rich Garces, Trot Nixon, Mo vaughn and even Nomar are stillloved by fans in Boston

[tribe_pride]

Johnny Damon -- despised in Boston these days.
Roger Clemens -- despised in Boston these days.
Nomar Garciapparra -- not nearly as popular, many actively dislike him.

Ortiz? Not named?

One current Sox player?

You don't think this will raise credibility issues? And naming players based on the word of clubhouse snitches and others under threat of indictment? I hope Mitchell has better sources than that.

I'd guess many players named will threaten legal action.

This is a PR nightmare all the way around for baseball, and having a director from a team that seems to be getting off light is just one of the issues.

(Also, Aaron Boone? Honestly, that one strikes me as pure BS. The guy is still as skinny as a teenager).

As much as I hate the Yanks (Mets fan), I have to agree that it does raise credibility issues.

As for Boone, don't be so quick to discard him. Not sure if you remember the reaction of everyone when Palmieiro was accused of taking steroids by Canseco's book. I wouldn't put it past any player at this point. Not saying Ortiz or other Sox took steroids but credibility issues are raised if several currently on the Sox rival is on the list and "only" Varitek is on the list from the Sox.

[Ronbo]

Looks like cheating is the normal business in baseball and if they went after professional football it would dwarf baseball.

Get off the high horses, looks like taking steriods in pro sports is business as usual.

[JoltinJoe]

so just cause Ortiz isnt named, the report is bull**** because a sox board member ran the investigation?

Maybe Ortiz never used steroids and thats why he's not named.

Look, I'm just saying it was dumb to put a Red Sox director in charge.

And that Ortiz -- whose performance over the past few years has gone from slightly to above average to superstar status -- is not on the list will only raise credibility questions, especially since he has also experienced many symptoms of HGH use.

[HIU 93]

None of those other players hold:

1) All-time record for HR in a season
2) All-time record for HR in a career.

Maybe we can give the single-season record back to Maris, and the career mark back to Aaron.

Just as I thought. The excuses begin. Kill Barry, let the others go.xwhistlex

[JoltinJoe]

Rich Garces, Trot Nixon, Mo vaughn and even Nomar are stillloved by fans in Boston

Garces? If you say so. I'd guess Nixon is "liked" but hardly loved. Vaughn was run out of Boston by a front office that called him a drunk.

And Nomar was called a clubhouse cancer and shipped out of town in a move many claim was the spark that ignited the 2004 team.

There was an inherent conflict of interest by choosing Mitchell to head this investigation.

And now the complaints are going to come fast and furious if the Sox get off as lightly as indicated.

A lawyer for Roger Clemens could devour George Mitchell on cross examination.

[FCS Preview]

Just as I thought. The excuses begin. Kill Barry, let the others go.xwhistlex

The others will get their just deserts too. Does Barry get the brunt of the abuse? Yes. Does he deserve it? As the holder of baseball's two most hallowed records, yes. Does race have anything to do with it? No.

[UNHWildCats]

Look, I'm just saying it was dumb to put a Red Sox director in charge.

And that Ortiz -- whose performance over the past few years has gone from slightly to above average to superstar status -- is not on the list will only raise credibility questions, especially since he has also experienced many symptoms of HGH use.
you cant name a player just cause you think he did it.... you need some proof wether is be someone who sold him or gave him it or whatever.

[LacesOut]

I'm wondering if any Phillies or recent ex-Phillies show up.xchinscratchx


LOL How about the '93 World Series Philly team, hell, they probably had 8-10 guys juicing.

And I'm with you about any recent ex-Phillies, I would have sworn Rowand was on gear.

[UNHWildCats]

Garces? If you say so. I'd guess Nixon is "liked" but hardly loved. Vaughn was run out of Boston by a front office that called him a drunk.

And Nomar was called a clubhouse cancer and shipped out of town in a move many claim was the spark that ignited the 2004 team.

There was an inherent conflict of interest by choosing Mitchell to head this investigation.

And now the complaints are going to come fast and furious if the Sox get off as lightly as indicated.

A lawyer for Roger Clemens could devour George Mitchell on cross examination.
Im not saying the players I named were liked by the front office, but by the fans, dont matter what the front office or clubhouse thought of any of those players they were and are loved by the fans.... yes even Rich "El Guapo" Garces

[BlueHen86]

The others will get their just deserts too. Does Barry get the brunt of the abuse? Yes. Does he deserve it? As the holder of baseball's two most hallowed records, yes. Does race have anything to do with it? No.
I don't blame Bonds. Baseball execs had to know about steroid use but turned a blind eye because HR's = ratings. Bonds did what he had to do to maintain an edge. He was probably the best player in the game before he took steroids, and he was the best after.

Baseball screwed itself by tacitly approving steroid use.

[HIU 93]

The others will get their just deserts too. Does Barry get the brunt of the abuse? Yes. Does he deserve it? As the holder of baseball's two most hallowed records, yes. Does race have anything to do with it? No.

Did I say anything about race?

[HIU 93]

LOL How about the '93 World Series Philly team, hell, they probably had 8-10 guys juicing.


Dykstra is on the list.

[BlueHen86]

LOL How about the '93 World Series Philly team, hell, they probably had 8-10 guys juicing.

And I'm with you about any recent ex-Phillies, I would have sworn Rowand was on gear.
Rowand was who I was thinking.xnodx

93 team; Dykstra and Danny Jackson had to be.;)

[UNHWildCats]

http://www.wnbc.com/videostream/13298034/detail.html WNBC will be broadcasting the press conference online for those not near a tv

[BlueHen86]

Dykstra is on the list.
But no Darren Daulton. I guess none of the lizards snitched.xlolx

[Black and Gold Express]

from another website, this may not be complete or completely accurate...but the leaked list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

The names I bolded have already been cleared, they were taking prescribed medications. I wonder how many other names will be similarly cleared in that fashion?

[LacesOut]

But no Darren Daulton. I guess none of the lizards snitched.xlolx

And no Dave Hollins, Pete Incavialia, Danny Jackson, Wes Chamberlain, Milt Thompson. And a couple more that I just can't recall.

[UNHWildCats]

The names I bolded have already been cleared, they were taking prescribed medications. I wonder how many other names will be similarly cleared in that fashion?
actually I believe MLB didnt suspend them because of a lack of evidence... not because they were cleared of any wrong doing.

[Black and Gold Express]

actually I believe MLB didnt suspend them because of a lack of evidence... not because they were cleared of any wrong doing.

Okay. I do know both came out and publicly stated that they were under doctor's orders. Easy enough to prove.

[UNHWildCats]

Paying with a credit card, Byrd spent $24,850 to buy more than 1,000 vials of growth hormone, an injectable prescription drug with muscle-building properties, and hundreds of syringes.

Thats more then just taking them as a prescription......

[UNHWildCats]

Gary Matthews Jr., Rick Ankiel, Troy Glaus and Scott Schoeneweis also were linked to performance-enhancing drugs, but baseball decided there was "insufficient evidence'' to determine they committed a doping violation. They were accused of receiving the substances before 2005.

zThats from CNNSI

[Seahawks Fan]

Dykstra is on the list.

If Dykstra is not on the list, then it loses all relevance for me. He went from a little scrawny guy with the Mets to a Mr. Universe with the Phils. We'll see... xcoffeex

[JoltinJoe]

Thats more then just taking them as a prescription......

And the allegations against Byrd were leaked from the Mitchell staff in the middle of the ALCS when the Indians were playing what team?

xchinscratchx

[UNHWildCats]

and where is the evidence that the Mitchell people leaked it?

[JoltinJoe]

and where is the evidence that the Mitchell people leaked it?

Perception is everything. If George Mitchell had to deny it, he has problems.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7365076

[Go...gate]

from another website, this may not be complete or completely accurate...but the leaked list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

My goodness.

[Gil Dobie]

Looks like cheating is the normal business in baseball and if they went after professional football it would dwarf baseball.

Get off the high horses, looks like taking steriods in pro sports is business as usual.

I would do an IOC on them all, take away their records, then ban them for 2 to 4 years. The clean players need to be rewarded. xthumbsupx

[Gil Dobie]

I guess you folks that want Bonds tarred and feathered have a lot more people to go after now- or will the excuses begin to pile up about why you can't go after all these other folks as well?

No excusses, tar and feather them all and reward the clean players. xthumbsupx

[FCS Preview]

I would do an IOC on them all, take away their records, then ban them for 2 to 4 years. The clean players need to be rewarded. xthumbsupx

Baseball is probably thankful that it appears that A-Rod will not be named...they can celebrate him when he breaks the tainted record.

[UNHWildCats]

www.mlb.com/mitchellreport (http://www.mlb.com/mitchellreport)

the report is up

[HIU 93]

No excusses, tar and feather them all and reward the clean players. xthumbsupx

I can respect that.xthumbsupx

It is those who will inevitably kepp coming back to only Bonds that I have a problem with.

Let's look at the entire picture, not just one player.

[UNHWildCats]

Varitek is NOT on the report....

[UNHWildCats]

Pujols Is NOT on the report neither is A Rod

[UNHWildCats]

Otis nixon is, Trot Nixon isnt

[UNHWildCats]

Neither Boone brother is in it

[TwinTownBisonFan]

fyi on the david ortiz thing... he's not doping... he's no bigger now than he was with the Twins

the difference in boston is threefold: one, they fixed the hole in his swing; two, they gave him 500 at bats in a season; three, he had a lineup around him that could hit.

as a twins fan, i'd love to be able to say he cheated... truth is, the Twins failed him as a hitter... they wanted him to hit for average, not power.

[HIU 93]

Otis nixon is, Trot Nixon isnt

That report now sounds fishy. Skinny ass Otis Nixon took roids? Otis Nixon? Have you seen Otis Nixon? Otis Nixon is about as big as Chris Rock.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

That report now sounds fishy. Skinny ass Otis Nixon took roids? Otis Nixon? Have you seen Otis Nixon? Otis Nixon is about as big as Chris Rock.

otis did a lot of blow... that much is known

[UNHWildCats]

Paul Lo Duca is in the report

[UNHWildCats]

ok im mjust searching names.... not reading every word but i went back and searched nixon again and heres what it says about him....


In addition to Steve Howe, whose lifetime ban was overturned after Vincent was
removed as Commissioner, Vincent suspended pitcher Rick Leach, catcher Gilberto Reyes,
outfielder Otis Nixon, first baseman Leon Durham, and pitcher Pascual Perez for violating the
Commissioner’s drug policy. As mentioned above, Vincent amended baseball’s drug policy in
June 1991 to add anabolic steroids as prohibited substances, soon after the Anabolic Steroids
Control Act of 1990 became effective.

[UNHWildCats]

Mo Vaughn is in the report

[UNHWildCats]

Eric Gagne IS in the report

[UNHWildCats]

Brendan Donnel is in the report

[UNHWildCats]

Chuck Knobaluch, Clemens, Pettitte and a personal blow for me David Justice are all in the report...

[UNHWildCats]

Denny Neagle

[UNHWildCats]

Kevin Brown

[OB55]

Do you have the report in hand Travis, or reading on the net?

[TexasTerror]

I'm reading the report on the 'Net...

In the process of reading all about Clemens...wow.

[UNHWildCats]

online.... im searching by team and then looking at each name in each hit.....

[UNHWildCats]

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

[OB55]

Got it, thanks

[TexasTerror]

Players with Astro ties in the report...

Andy Pettite
Roger Clemens
Greg Zaun
Ron Villone
Chris Donnels
Ken Caminiti
Stephen Randolph
Jason Grimsley
Miguel Tejada

[jstate83]

xlolx
Ya'll know I'm waiting on the Bond's type venom to hit these player's.xcoffeex
We all know it won't though. xlolx

[jstate83]

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx


Just as I thought. The excuses begin. Kill Barry, let the others go.xwhistlex

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[jstate83]

I don't blame Bonds. Baseball execs had to know about steroid use but turned a blind eye because HR's = ratings. Bonds did what he had to do to maintain an edge. He was probably the best player in the game before he took steroids, and he was the best after.

Baseball screwed itself by tacitly approving steroid use.

Killing part is the Bond's trial, for what it's worth, is not even about roid's anymore. xlolx

They could not prove that so now it's taxes and purjury.xsmiley_wix

[jstate83]

Paying with a credit card, Byrd spent $24,850 to buy more than 1,000 vials of growth hormone, an injectable prescription drug with muscle-building properties, and hundreds of syringes.


Thats more then just taking them as a prescription......

To be fair, one guy they interviewed in Arizona who no longer play's has an ongoing medical condition that required taking the medication.
He had a huge bill for the stuff but I can't say if this was the guy.

Forgot who it was.
He had doctor's and hospital proof.xthumbsupx

[JoltinJoe]

I'm reading the report on the 'Net...

In the process of reading all about Clemens...wow.

Wow, what? Read carefully. No real proof against Clemens other than the word of a guy under threat of indictment.

But written so tightly it reads far more persuasively than it reasonably should.

No documentary evidence (like there was in the case of other players).

[mcveyrl]

Killing part is the Bond's trial, for what it's worth, is not even about roid's anymore. xlolx

They could not prove that so now it's taxes and purjury.xsmiley_wix

Actually, in order to get to perjury, they'll have to prove the 'roids part.

[UNHWildCats]

Wow, what? Read carefully. No real proof against Clemens other than the word of a guy under threat of indictment.

But written so tightly it reads far more persuasively than it reasonably should.

No documentary evidence (like there was in the case of other players).

The person who spoke about Clemens and Pettite isnt the former Mets clubhouse guy....

[jstate83]

Actually, in order to get to perjury, they'll have to prove the 'roids part.

Something they can't do.
Barry said from day 1 that he didn't know that stuff he was using had roid's in it.
(xlolx Lesson here kiddies is TELL 1 STORY, KEEP IT SIMPLE, AND STICK TO IT. xlolx)

They have found nobody inside or outside of baseball or the medical world that has seen Bonds use the stuff.

The only person they got is a mad ex-girlfriend looking for a payday.
She wrote her little book and hyped it into a playboy spread.
If that's their witness then GOOD LUCK MLB.xlolx

[bandl]

Well at least there are no current or former Baltimore Orioles in this report. xnodx


Whew!!! xrolleyesx



xlolx xsmhx

[JoltinJoe]

The person who spoke about Clemens and Pettite isnt the former Mets clubhouse guy....

Federal prosecutors have threatened to charge McNamee with illegal distribution of steroids and other controlled dangerous substances.

So my observation is correct.xnodx

[jstate83]

Baseball 2007
http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.cehjournal.org/images/ceh_10_24_059_f01.jpg&usg=AFQjCNF77mTDHdYDrmACTespWHAAENVo_w

The NBA and NFL don't look so bad now. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Has anyone noticed the HUGE number of Yankees in this report?

Kevin Brown
Clemens
Pettite
Stanton
Villone
Knoublach
Denny Neagle
Giambi
And how did I forget Sheffield? And Grimsley? And David Justice?

And they haven't also mentioned Karim Garcia (who I'd be willing to bet anything was juiced).

The Dodgers and Mets also have a slew of accused players. Interestingly, Eric Gagne is one of those players, and Red Sox GM Theo Epstein was quoted in the report with this exchange:


In a November 1, 2006 email to a Red Sox scout, general manager Theo Epstein asked, “Have you done any digging on Gagne? I know the Dodgers think he was a steroid guy. Maybe so. What do you hear on his
medical?”

The scout, Mark Delpiano, responded, "Some digging on Gagne and steroids IS the issue. Has had a checkered medical past throughout career including minor leagues. Lacks the poise and commitment to stay healthy, maintain body and re invent self. What made him a tenacious closer was the max effort plus stuff . . . Mentality without the plus weapons and without steroid help probably creates a large risk in bounce back durability and ability to throw average while allowing the changeup to play as it once did . . . Personally, durability (or lack of) will follow Gagne . . ."

So why did he go get him six months later, after this report?

[UNHWildCats]

the orioles were one of the busier teams :p

[UNHWildCats]

Federal prosecutors have threatened to charge McNamee with illegal distribution of steroids and other controlled dangerous substances.

So my observation is correct.xnodx
got a link on that? I google news'd him and nothing came up about his beuing threatened with prosecution.

[UNHWildCats]

you forgot Giambi... and the orioles have a lot of names too.

[tribe_pride]

Something they can't do.
Barry said from day 1 that he didn't know that stuff he was using had roid's in it.
(xlolx Lesson here kiddies is TELL 1 STORY, KEEP IT SIMPLE, AND STICK TO IT. xlolx)

They have found nobody inside or outside of baseball or the medical world that has seen Bonds use the stuff.

The only person they got is a mad ex-girlfriend looking for a payday.
She wrote her little book and hyped it into a playboy spread.
If that's their witness then GOOD LUCK MLB.xlolx

You are right in all but the "GOOD LUCK MLB" part. The perjury is a criminal charge brought by the DOJ I am pretty sure (it's definitely not MLB though). So you should be saying "GOOD LUCK DOJ"

The only reason I think they may have something that may stick is that the federal government rarely brings cases that are questionable winners. It will be interesting to see what they have. If that is it, you are right.

[whitey]

Has anyone noticed the HUGE number of Yankees in this report?
...The Dodgers and Mets also have a slew of accused players.

Well the thing is that alot of the report mentions trainers that either worked for the Mets or some Yankee players as the document's primary source for information. The trail from the Mets to Dodgers clubhouse is easily traced through Todd Hundley -> Paul Lo Duca.

It's not surprising to me that there are so many players with ties to those 3 teams. What does surprise me is that for a 20 month investigation I would expect to see more names (and from more teams) than what we see in this report. After all, in all likelihood most of the other 27 MLB teams had trainers working with them/their players that were providing Steroids/HGH just like Randomski was doing.

Mitchell is meaning to tell me that after almost 2 years he couldn't find/get more trainers to talk?

[mcveyrl]

Something they can't do.
Barry said from day 1 that he didn't know that stuff he was using had roid's in it.
(xlolx Lesson here kiddies is TELL 1 STORY, KEEP IT SIMPLE, AND STICK TO IT. xlolx)

They have found nobody inside or outside of baseball or the medical world that has seen Bonds use the stuff.

The only person they got is a mad ex-girlfriend looking for a payday.
She wrote her little book and hyped it into a playboy spread.
If that's their witness then GOOD LUCK MLB.xlolx

I agree the feds have a tough case. Perjury's always a tough case. I was just pointing out that the case was still about steroids.

Plenty of cases have been won on circumstancial evidence, though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Looking at the raw report is pretty sobering. There are dozens of copies of checks made out to and FedEx packages coming from McNamee. There's not really any doubt here.

[gmoney55]

Clemens = Bonds

[Fresno St. Alum]

can anyone put up the whole list like the other person did. The right list please.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't have time to list them all, but I do know that there are no current Red Sox on there (except Gagne, who left for the Brewers).

Yankees, Mets, Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Blue Jays, Astros feature prominently. To a lesser extent, the A's.

Mo Vaughn is on there, but after his 2001 injury on the Angels.

Fernando Vina is on there.

Bonds is in there.

All the aforementioned Yankees.

Tood Hundley. Lenny Dykstra. Paul LoDuca.

Mark Carreon. Kevin Young. Kent Mercker. Miguel Tejada.

Rondell White and Glenallen Hill (more former Yankees I forgot).

The full report:
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf

[Fresno St. Alum]

Glaus, Mathews Jr, Gagne, Ankiel are on it

[OB55]

can anyone put up the whole list like the other person did. The right list please.

Believe this is where the leaked list originated, they have taken it down, and are compiling a new one;

http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

Skip that, they shredded the entire article, hmmmmm.

[whitey]

The 2000 Yankees Should Have the World Series Title Taken Away From Them!

THEY ARE A BUNCH OF ROID-RAGING CHEATERS!!!

AND THEN THEY SHOULD AWARD THE TITLE TO THE MY BELOVED METS!

The 2000 New York Yankees have 9 or 10 players listed as steroid users during the 2000 baseball season according to the Mitchell report. 8 of those players were on the World Series Roster. Here they are:

* Roger Clemens
* Andy Pettitte
* Denny Neagle
* Mike Stanton
* Chuck Knoblauch
* Jose Canseco
* David Justice
* Glenallen Hill

The Mets on the other hand had two players listed in the report from the 2000 season (Matt Franco & Todd Pratt). The two Mets named were bench players that combined had 3 at-bats during the series. The Yankees position players listed above had 33 at bats. Hmmm...interesting. It doesn't stop there though.

The 4 Yankee Pitchers listed above pitched 30 2/3 of the 47 total innings of the series.

[mcveyrl]

Perhpas the most embarrassing part of the whole report:



Under Bobby Estalella:
Anderson reportedly sent Estalella a “workout program and drug schedule” under which
Estalella would use human growth hormone, the “clear,” the “cream,” and the female fertility
drug Clomid, in rotation

What?? Looks like Bonds and Giambi probably also took it.

I understand the point is to help the body produce testosteron, but, um...maybe there's a differently way.

[Cocky]

****************** everywhere in the record books.

[OB55]

Allen, Chad

Ankiel, Rick

Bell, David

Bell, Mike

Bennett Jr., Gary

Bonds, Barry

Brown, Kevin

Byrd, Paul

Cabrera, Alex

Caminiti , Ken

Carreon, Mark

Christiansen, Jason

Clark, Howie

Clemens, Roger

Conseco, Jose

Cust, Jack

Donnels, Chris

Donnelly, Brendan

Dykstra , Len

Franco, Matt

Franklin, Ryan

Gagne, Eric

Giambi, Jason

Giambi, Jeremy

Gibbons, Jay

Glaus, Troy

Gonzalez, Juan

Grimsley, Jason

Guillen, Jose

Hairston Jr., Jerry

Herges, Matt

Hiatt, Phil

Hill, Glenallen

Holmes, Darren

Hundley, Todd

Jorgernson, Ryan

Justice, David

Knoblauch, Chuck

Laker, Tim

Lansing, Mike

Lo Duca, Paul

Logan, Exavier

Manzanillo, Josias

Matthews, Jr. Gary

McKay, Cody

Mercker, Kent

McGwire, Mark

Miadich, Bart

Naulty, Daniel

Neagle, Denny

Morris, Hal

Palmeiro, Rafael

Parque, Jim

Pettitte, Andy

Pratt, Todd

Randolph, Stephen

Rocker, John

Riggs, Adam

Rios, Armando

Roberts, Brian

Santangelo, F.P.

Santiago , Benito

Schoenweis, Scott

Segui, David

Sheffield, Gary

Sosa, Sammy

Stanton, Mike

Tejada, Miguel

Valdez, Ismael

Vaughn, Mo

Velarde, Randy

Villone, Ron

Vina, Fernando

White, Rondell

Willaims, Jeff

Williams, Matt

Williams, Todd

Woodard, Steve

Young, Kevin

Zaun, Gregg


http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

[LacesOut]

Remember, these are the players who actually got caught. Or ratted out, or busted. Whichever way you want to phrase it. My point? There's a whole lot more out there.

[mcveyrl]

Some of the guys on that list, you look at and think:

"Man, I coulda been that good with steroids!!"

[JoltinJoe]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;798382There's not really any doubt here.[/QUOTE]

You think so? Frankly, the report is pretty weak and many of the players are named based on statements of people under threat of indictment.

[JoltinJoe]

got a link on that? I google news'd him and nothing came up about his beuing threatened with prosecution.

Or you could read the report. ;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You think so? Frankly, the report is pretty weak and many of the players are named based on statements of people under threat of indictment.

I didn't count all the amounts of the cancelled checks, but I think conservatively it's $20,000 -- all to Roger Clemens' personal trainer whom he insisted come to to Yankees from Toronto when he was signed. Hand-signed.

If they're all innocent, how do they explain the checks?

[JoltinJoe]

I didn't count all the amounts of the cancelled checks, but I think conservatively it's $20,000 -- all to Roger Clemens' personal trainer whom he insisted come to to Yankees from Toronto when he was signed. Hand-signed.

If they're all innocent, how do they explain the checks?

Because Clemens was paying him for his personal training services. xnodx

But this is precisely my point about the report. The report creates the impression that Clemens was paying McNamee for steroids, but buried in the text, there is this statement worthy of some discussion:

"Clemens never gave money to McNamee specifically to buy performance enhancing substances"

I know what that means. McNamee has no real proof that Clemens purchased "performance enhancing substances" from him.

[Gil Dobie]

xlolx
Ya'll know I'm waiting on the Bond's type venom to hit these player's.xcoffeex
We all know it won't though. xlolx

None of them deserve to keep their records. IOC all the cheaters. Each should have an *, which stands for record set during Selig Era. xthumbsupx

Chicken shiate McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and Sheffield wouldn't talk to Mitchell. IOC them too. xthumbsupx

Bonds has other legal problems right now. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Because Clemens was paying him for his personal training services. xnodx

But this is precisely my point about the report. The report creates the impression that Clemens was paying McNamee for steroids, but buried in the text, there is this statement worthy of some discussion:

"Clemens never gave money to McNamee specifically to buy performance enhancing substances"

I know what that means. McNamee has no real proof that Clemens purchased "performance enhancing substances" from him.

Grimsley was a liason with "other Yankees" - I beleive that's spelled out in the report.

As for the allegation, you're trying to tell me that he introduced them to his trainer -- who then got paid to deliver them steroids -- but Clemens himself was unaware all this was going on? Either he's a user, or an idiot - I think he's a user.

Point in fact: Clemens was losing his stuff when he left the Red Sox. A year later, he wins the Cy Young for the Blue Jays. Proven dealer is brought by Clemens FROM the Blue Jays to the Yankees, where he proceeds to create a paper trail between himself and a slew of other players with DOCUMENTED TRANSFERS OF MONEY AND DELIVERY OF STEROIDS.

Riiiiiiight he didn't know about it. Bonds didn't know that cream he was using had HGH in it, either.

[JoltinJoe]

Grimsley was a liason with "other Yankees" - I beleive that's spelled out in the report.

As for the allegation, you're trying to tell me that he introduced them to his trainer -- who then got paid to deliver them steroids -- but Clemens himself was unaware all this was going on? Either he's a user, or an idiot - I think he's a user.

Point in fact: Clemens was losing his stuff when he left the Red Sox. A year later, he wins the Cy Young for the Blue Jays. Proven dealer is brought by Clemens FROM the Blue Jays to the Yankees, where he proceeds to create a paper trail between himself and a slew of other players with DOCUMENTED TRANSFERS OF MONEY AND DELIVERY OF STEROIDS.

Riiiiiiight he didn't know about it. Bonds didn't know that cream he was using had HGH in it, either.

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

All I can say is that the case against Clemens wouldn't stand up in court.

[UMass922]

xlolx
Ya'll know I'm waiting on the Bond's type venom to hit these player's.xcoffeex
We all know it won't though. xlolx

I don't know, I think Clemens is going to get it pretty bad. If he doesn't, then I think we'll safely be able to say that there's a double standard going on. We'll have to wait and see. They're players of about equal stature.

[Gil Dobie]

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

All I can say is that the case against Clemens wouldn't stand up in court.

The case against the Black Sox didn't standup in court, the commish made is own decision.

[bodoyle]

I have to say something about this.

I listened all day at work. I come home, turn on ESPN and below the feed of Donald Fehr taking questions is "Breaking News" with a quote from Fehr..."In retrospect, we should have acted sooner..."

Are you fu**ing kidding me??? Thanks captin obvious!! Jesus!

[UNHWildCats]

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

All I can say is that the case against Clemens wouldn't stand up in court.
the only court thats gonna matter is the court of public oppinion.

[UMass922]

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

All I can say is that the case against Clemens wouldn't stand up in court.

It wouldn't stand up in court, but it doesn't need to in order to kill his credibility in baseball. Mitchell gave him and all the other players a chance to defend themselves and clear their names, and Clemens, like most of them, didn't come forward. If he's clean, why on earth wouldn't he try to defend his reputation? All these players know how much is on the line here. And silence speaks volumes.

[blk]

Is it really cheating anymore when everybody is cheating?

[Gil Dobie]

Is it really cheating anymore when everybody is cheating?

Everybody doesn't cheat, it just seems that way. :)

[JoltinJoe]

It wouldn't stand up in court, but it doesn't need to in order to kill his credibility in baseball. Mitchell gave him and all the other players a chance to defend themselves and clear their names, and Clemens, like most of them, didn't come forward. If he's clean, why on earth wouldn't he try to defend his reputation? All these players know how much is on the line here. And silence speaks volumes.

Actually, that's a pretty fair summary of the "investigation."

Someone named you, you didn't come when I asked, so your name is in the report.

Pretty reckless.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Actually, that's a pretty fair summary of the "investigation."

Someone named you, you didn't come when I asked, so your name is in the report.

Pretty reckless.

I see you're of the persuasion that Clemens is an idiot - that he had nothing to do with steroids, and that McNamee was soliciting (conservatively) $20,000 worth of personal checks for steroids under his nose. That's like saying Marion Jones was only married to the guy busted for steroids - she didn't really know he was using them.

OK, so your theory is that this is a witch hunt. Why go after Clemens, then? The report has more than enough people in it as it is.

[JoltinJoe]

I see you're of the persuasion that Clemens is an idiot - that he had nothing to do with steroids, and that McNamee was soliciting (conservatively) $20,000 worth of personal checks for steroids under his nose. That's like saying Marion Jones was only married to the guy busted for steroids - she didn't really know he was using them.

OK, so your theory is that this is a witch hunt. Why go after Clemens, then? The report has more than enough people in it as it is.

LFN, your posting today is not making sense. What are you talking about?

Honestly, I think you need to read the report.

McNamee said Clemens never gave him any money for "performance enhancing substances." So McNamee in effect said that whatever money he received from Clemens was for personal training services.

[Cleets]

LFN, your posting today is not making sense. What are you talking about?

Honestly, I think you need to read the report.

McNamee said Clemens never gave him any money for "performance enhancing substances." So McNamee in effect said that whatever money he received from Clemens was for personal training services.

Asterisks * are all over the sporting world these days...

Barry Bonds*
Roger Clemens*
New England Patriots*
Andy Pettit*
Mark McGuire*
Gary Sheffield*


Gee what fun...!!!
xlolx

[foghorn]

If Dykstra is not on the list, then it loses all relevance for me. He went from a little scrawny guy with the Mets to a Mr. Universe with the Phils. We'll see... xcoffeex

Mitch Williams, Dykstra's teammate, says he never saw Dykstra ever lift a barbell, yet he came to spring training 35 lbs. heavier and all muscle mass, and all of a sudden became a power hitter, 'Wheaties' box material. xconfusedx
IMO, the owners and GM's should all go on trial for 'enabling' the steroid players by looking the other way, because they were all recouping their losses from the drop in attendance from the previous year's strike attendance backlash. The 'home run derby', with McGuire and Sosa, and then the explosion by Bonds were packing the fans in and filling the pockets of the greedy owners. Steroids were a 'godsend', ethics be damned.
I'm not a Bonds fan, but I hope he's found innocent, because, although he lied, is it any different than McGuire's evading the steroid use question by continually repeating that he didn't want to talk about the past, but only the future? That's Bool sheet and everyone knows it.
Allow the records to stand, but let those who write the almanacs let all the readers be aware of the 'steroid era". I've speculated for several years how Clemons could still bring it over 96mph when he was over 40. Now we know. His records, as well as McGuire's should be just as tarnished as Bond's. Let the owners be grilled, it'd be fun to watch them squirm. :D

[Go...gate]

Mitch Williams, Dykstra's teammate, says he never saw Dykstra ever lift a barbell, yet he came to spring training 35 lbs. heavier and all muscle mass, and all of a sudden became a power hitter, 'Wheaties' box material. xconfusedx
IMO, the owners and GM's should all go on trial for 'enabling' the steroid players by looking the other way, because they were all recouping their losses from the drop in attendance from the previous year's strike attendance backlash. The 'home run derby', with McGuire and Sosa, and then the explosion by Bonds were packing the fans in and filling the pockets of the greedy owners. Steroids were a 'godsend', ethics be damned.
I'm not a Bonds fan, but I hope he's found innocent, because, although he lied, is it any different than McGuire's evading the steroid use question by continually repeating that he didn't want to talk about the past, but only the future? That's Bool sheet and everyone knows it.
Allow the records to stand, but let those who write the almanacs let all the readers be aware of the 'steroid era". I've speculated for several years how Clemons could still bring it over 96mph when he was over 40. Now we know. His records, as well as McGuire's should be just as tarnished as Bond's. Let the owners be grilled, it'd be fun to watch them squirm. :D


Anybody who remembers Dykstra as a Met knows he ultimately juiced, just as Todd Hundley did. They were both skinny kids who grew into monsters. Dykstra was traded in 1989 for Juan Samuel in the worst Met deal since trading Seaver. Later, in 1997, Bobby Valentine wanted no part of Hundley because he thought Hundley had drug problems and was a time bomb about to explode.

[dbackjon]

Clemens needs the Bonds treatment. If you look at his past, he WAS washed up in Boston. Went to Toronto, started juicing, ERA drops dramatically mid-season.

Clemens career would have ended in 1999/2000 without steriods.

And Clemens needs to be stripped of the 2004 Cy Young Award - give to the rightful owner, Randy Johnson.

[dbackjon]

At least the Diamondbacks were doing stuff back in 2000 to counter this

Shipment of Steroids to Arizona Clubhouse, September 2000
Sometime in mid-September 2000, a clubhouse employee with the Arizona
Diamondbacks discovered a bottle of anabolic steroids and several hundred pills in a package that had been mailed to the Diamondbacks’ ballpark in Phoenix. Clubhouse attendants knew that the package had been intended for Alex Cabrera, then a player on Arizona’s major league roster, who had been searching for the package for several days. They gave the box to the team’s athletic trainer and told Cabrera that the package probably had been lost.
After he learned of the incident, Joe Garagiola, Jr., the Diamondbacks’ general manager at the time, reported the discovery to the Commissioner’s Office. The Commissioner’s Office retrieved the package and sent the drugs to the Drug Enforcement Administration for evaluation, which confirmed that the vial contained Winstrol (stanozolol), an injectable anabolic steroid, and that the pills in the box were over-the-counter diet pills.


By the time the DEA confirmed that the shipment to Cabrera had contained steroids, his contract had been sold to the Seibu Lions in the Japan League. Manfred therefore did not seek permission from the Players Association to subject Cabrera to “reasonable cause” testing for steroids.

[FargoBison]

I wonder who isn't using, former Brewer and Ranger pitcher Rick Helling told a Fargo sports writer a few years ago that the number of users was probably 50%. This list barely scratches the surface IMO.

[Ivytalk]

The AGS Sports Court will come to order! Mr. Justice JoltinJoe presiding. ALL RISE!!xbowx xbowx

[JoltinJoe]

The AGS Sports Court will come to order! Mr. Justice JoltinJoe presiding. ALL RISE!!xbowx xbowx

Thank you.

As an initial matter, I'm troubled by the use of the uncorroborated statements of co-conspirators as a basis for the indictments.

I'd like briefs from the prosecution on the issue and I'm thinking strongly about dismissing the indictments against any defendant included in this case based only on the statements of an unindicted co-conspirator, Brian McNamee, who made those statements while he labored under the threat of indictment himself. I am specifically concerned about the indictments of Andrew Pettite and Roger Clemens.

And the case against Brian Roberts is dismissed. I don't need anything further on that matter.

(As an aside, I was debating the above point yesterday on a message board with some Sox fans. I was complaining about the use of uncorroborated statements of McNamee, a co-conspirator, and saying there was a firm foundation in law to hold that you cannot convict based solely on such evidence. While this debate ensued, one of the Sox fans said he was watching a legal analyst named Gorman on ESPN, and he was making exactly the same point that I was making).

[Seahawks Fan]

Bill Madden, in this morning's NY Daily News, says he will not vote for anyone on the list to the Hall of Fame. That is a fitting response to these cheaters. I agree with Mr. Madden. xnodx xnodx

[HIU 93]

otis did a lot of blow... that much is known

Cocaine is not 'roids.

[HIU 93]

Actually, in order to get to perjury, they'll have to prove the 'roids part.

They won't. Not in SF. That is the weakest indictment I have seen in a long time, and San Fransiscans love Barry.

[mcveyrl]

They won't. Not in SF. That is the weakest indictment I have seen in a long time, and San Fransiscans love Barry.

I would not be surprised if the indictment was kicked out (although the judge probably won't do it - Ito-itis combined with Barry Bonds is just too good to pass up).

I don't know if they've got enough evidence to prove it ANYWHERE (well...MAYBE Pittsburgh), but I agree about San Francisco.

[Gil Dobie]

Thank you.

As an initial matter, I'm troubled by the use of the uncorroborated statements of co-conspirators as a basis for the indictments.

This is now a list of players with tainted records. Only a court case proving their innocence will exonerate them.

*Record Set During Bud Selig Steroid Era xlolx

[foghorn]

I found it humorous that David Bell was on that list. Bell must've had Igor as a go-between and Igor must've dropped and broke the bottle of steroids marked 'normal' and replaced it with the bottle marked 'abnormal'.
Bell couldn't hit the damm ball out of the infield. Bell should've tried spinach. xlolx

[BlueHen86]

I found it humorous that David Bell was on that list. Bell must've had Igor as a go-between and Igor must've dropped and broke the bottle of steroids marked 'normal' and replaced it with the bottle marked 'abnormal'.
Bell couldn't hit the damm ball out of the infield. Bell should've tried spinach. xlolx
The were quite a few players on the list that sucked - and played for the Phillies.xlolx

Gary Bennett? Are you kidding me? Since when do you need steroids to catch in the bullpen?

The ex-Phillies should seek a refund. They are supposed to be performance enhancing drugs.

[HIU 93]

I don't know if they've got enough evidence to prove it ANYWHERE (well...MAYBE Pittsburgh)

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[JoltinJoe]

This is now a list of players with tainted records. Only a court case proving their innocence will exonerate them.

*Record Set During Bud Selig Steroid Era xlolx

The list means nothing because there are a number of players on there against whom the proof is meager. Read the report. YOu will see what I mean.

Brian Roberts, if you're reading, give me a call. You have a great slander case, buddy. Even the actual malice standard won't save the Mitchell Committee in your case.

[Gil Dobie]

The list means nothing because there are a number of players on there against whom the proof is meager. Read the report. YOu will see what I mean.

Brian Roberts, if you're reading, give me a call. You have a great slander case, buddy. Even the actual malice standard won't save the Mitchell Committee in your case.

Watch the baseball card prices and memorabilia sales of these players and you will see the list does mean something. Take Mark McGwire rookie cards, one grade card once went for $10,000, and a signed jersey once went for $6100. Now they are worth less than 10 percent of that value, and McGwire has not been convicted of anything. The court of public perception is the jury in these cases.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The list means nothing because there are a number of players on there against whom the proof is meager. Read the report. YOu will see what I mean.

Brian Roberts, if you're reading, give me a call. You have a great slander case, buddy. Even the actual malice standard won't save the Mitchell Committee in your case.

You have conveniently avoided answering my questions.

If McNamee was getting money from Clemens for "personal training services" - and by all accounts McNamee was introduced to the rest of the Yankees by Clemens - but McNamee was making more than $20,000 dollars (conservatively) from only the people with the number of cancelled checks that are referenced in the report (this is not in question), are you saying Clemens was an idiot and didn't see all this? That's his only defense.

Slander implies that it's done based on no evidence. There are literally pages of private testimony from McNamee and public sources. All Mitchell is doing is putting these things in one place. What is Mitchell saying specifically that is untrue?

You might think cancelled checks and FedEx package receipts are "meager evidence" but I sure as hell don't. You can try to split technical hairs and O.J. this case if you want but the truth it's that Clemens introduced someone who provided "steroid services" - corroborated with checks and receipts - to a number of Yankees. You can choose to believe that there is reasonable doubt that Clemens engaged in the services that other players availed themselves with - but I sure don't.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

More specifically. Let's say I go on a message board and say "I overheard McManee injected steroids in Roger Clemens". That's not slander. How can you say it's a good case for slander? Clemens isn't being charged in the report - Mitchell is simply relaying the evidence that McNamee relayed to him in his "steroids in baseball" investigation. Clemens isn't charged with anything; Clemens hasn't been arrested; MLB hasn't suspended him. Mitchell has only shined a very bright light on the activities of McNamee and what was alleged to have happened with him and Clemens.

[Seahawks Fan]

Any chance this guy will be mentioned?

http://www.dontclickme.com/media/arnold-schwarzenegger-big_muscle.jpg


What position does he play? :)

[minuteman65]

Thank you.

As an initial matter, I'm troubled by the use of the uncorroborated statements of co-conspirators as a basis for the indictments.

I'd like briefs from the prosecution on the issue and I'm thinking strongly about dismissing the indictments against any defendant included in this case based only on the statements of an unindicted co-conspirator, Brian McNamee, who made those statements while he labored under the threat of indictment himself. I am specifically concerned about the indictments of Andrew Pettite and Roger Clemens.

And the case against Brian Roberts is dismissed. I don't need anything further on that matter.

(As an aside, I was debating the above point yesterday on a message board with some Sox fans. I was complaining about the use of uncorroborated statements of McNamee, a co-conspirator, and saying there was a firm foundation in law to hold that you cannot convict based solely on such evidence. While this debate ensued, one of the Sox fans said he was watching a legal analyst named Gorman on ESPN, and he was making exactly the same point that I was making).

So that IS you on redsoxnation.net!

[Seahawks Fan]

.......

A lawyer for Roger Clemens could devour George Mitchell on cross examination.


Really? We'll see about that. Right now I would say the score is 9-0 Mitchell. xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

More info from ESPN.com:


Q: Can players such as Roger Clemens and Miguel Tejada sue Mitchell and MLB because of what was said about them in the Mitchell report?

A: Yes. Anyone can file a lawsuit any time they want. But any player who files a libel lawsuit over the allegations made in the report would be in for a host of difficulties. He would have to show that Mitchell was wrong and that he formed his conclusion because of malice toward the player. It is a burden of proof that is always difficult, and can be impossible. If Clemens, for example, were to file suit, he would have to be able to destroy the credibility of his own former trainer, Brian McNamee. Clemens would have to persuade a jury that McNamee lied about him in an effort to avoid a jail sentence. MLB would fight vigorously against any challenges to the Mitchell conclusions. Any player who wants to sue faces a major litigation war.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=3153516

[UNHWildCats]

http://www.uploaderrr.com/pix/30/RoidRage.gif

[NE MT GRIZZ]

I was pretty disappointed to see Fernando Vina on the list.:(

He was always one of the guys I enjoyed watching, even when he played for the Brewers.

[JoltinJoe]

You have conveniently avoided answering my questions.

If McNamee was getting money from Clemens for "personal training services" - and by all accounts McNamee was introduced to the rest of the Yankees by Clemens - but McNamee was making more than $20,000 dollars (conservatively) from only the people with the number of cancelled checks that are referenced in the report (this is not in question), are you saying Clemens was an idiot and didn't see all this? That's his only defense.

Slander implies that it's done based on no evidence. There are literally pages of private testimony from McNamee and public sources. All Mitchell is doing is putting these things in one place. What is Mitchell saying specifically that is untrue?

You might think cancelled checks and FedEx package receipts are "meager evidence" but I sure as hell don't. You can try to split technical hairs and O.J. this case if you want but the truth it's that Clemens introduced someone who provided "steroid services" - corroborated with checks and receipts - to a number of Yankees. You can choose to believe that there is reasonable doubt that Clemens engaged in the services that other players availed themselves with - but I sure don't.

Your questions make no sense. I have tried to be polite about this, but since you are characterizing my politeness as evasion, let me blunt about this.

Where in the report is there a cancelled check from Clemens? Where is there a FedEx receipt from Clemens? There is no documentary evidence tying Clemens to any of this.

Honestly, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Did you even read the report and look at the documents attached? Or are you just going on someone else's say so?

Glad you journalists are on top of this.xrolleyesx

[JoltinJoe]

More info from ESPN.com:


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=3153516

You don't think Clemens has an abundance of dirt on McNamee that Mitchell could have found if he had made any effort to be balanced?

The more I read the Mitchell Report, the less and less I see.

And your espn source is wrong in layman's terms. The term "malice" in defamation law has a specialized meaning. So when espn says Clemens has to show Mitchell's "malice," that does not mean Clemens has to show Mitchell reported what he did because of some personal dislike of Clemens. "Malice" in defamation law means that a statement was made: (i) with actual knowledge of falsity or (ii) with a reckless disregard for the truth.

"Reckless disregard for the truth" can be found where a person repeats information from a source with a motivation to lie (for example, a person who says something under threat of indictment) without making any effort to find exculpatory information, or to examine the person's motivation for saying what he did.

Mitchell accepted McNamee's statements at face value and his report reflects no effort to critically examine those statements. In my considered professional judgment (which is probably more extensive in defamation law than the espn "expert" who wrote this blurb), and having read the report, I see a potential for the argument that Mitchell's uncritical treatment of McNamee's statements reflects a "reckless disregard" for the truth.

Funny that you should have omitted this from your discussion, though (also from the espn column you cite):

Although Mitchell names players who allegedly used performance-enhancing drugs, he suggests that these players should not be fined or suspended. He says it is better to focus on the future than to waste effort on "contentious disciplinary proceedings." Are there legal reasons for Mitchell's recommendation?


Yes. There are two powerful legal reasons for the recommendation, reasons that might be the real rationale for his suggestion. First, if Selig tried to suspend players named in Mitchell's report, Selig would face instant demands for arbitration from the players union. MLB officials would face serious problems resulting from the rapidly evolving policy on steroids and HGH, and would have serious legal problems for suspending a player for something that was not yet a violation of the rules. It would be difficult for MLB to navigate the thicket of rules changes and produce a winnable case on any discipline. Second, and more importantly, Mitchell's recommendation will avoid any legal test of his evidence and of his conclusion that a particular player used these drugs. Without suspensions or fines, the union would be unable to attack Mitchell's evidence, cross-examine his witnesses and test his conclusions. Without arbitration over a suspension, Mitchell's allegations remain in force and in effect without anyone's ever testing them.


The recommendation against suspensions or fines insulates the commissioner from embarrassing difficulties in arbitrations with the union and avoids what could be an embarrassing test of the sufficiency and legality of Mitchell's evidence.

Or this one (particularly relevant to our discussion of Clemens, identified solely on the uncorroborated statements of McNamee, who spoke under the threat of indictment:

What if Mitchell is relying on a single interview or a single statement from someone without corroboration?


Allegations made on the unconfirmed word of a trainer, a team official or anyone else are the flimsiest of allegations. A player named on this basis could easily decide to challenge the allegation in a lawsuit. Union officials will examine these single-source, unconfirmed allegations very carefully and might use one or two as a challenge to the Mitchell report.

[Col Hogan]

I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV), but a nagging question in the back of my mind is this...

Mitchell pulls lots of data together from various sources...and offers to discuss what he has with each player named prior to relesing it...all refuse...

Then once released, they attack the report...without presenting any data themselves...(at least to date...)

OK, Court of public opinion...I think the players named had better take the offensive soon if they truely are innocent...

But a questiion to the real lawyers out there...In a Court of Law...what can we expect.....

[lambertjr]

Just another reason to add to the list why I could care less about the MLB.
All this garbage is the fault of the owners,managers, and players.
They destroyed baseball w/ their petty a$$ strikes and so they ALL turned their heads at this problem when guys started cheating and running up fake numbers because they new it would put people back in the seats.

Nothing is going to come of this report. Nothing.

Selig is a jellyfish and won't do crap. He'll talk a good game but until I see MVPs and record holders sitting out seasons w/ suspensions it's all just smoke and mirrors.

[JoltinJoe]

Really? We'll see about that. Right now I would say the score is 9-0 Mitchell. xnodx

I'm sure Clemens has dirt on McNamee that Mitchell could have found if he tried.

Mitchell's report does not reflect any genuine effort to find evidence critical of McNamee.

That alone presents an issue of reckless disregard for the truth. (I have a cite to a US Supreme Court case at work, which I will supply later. It may be Masson v. New Yorker Magazine, 501 US 496 (1991),

[JoltinJoe]

I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV), but a nagging question in the back of my mind is this...

Mitchell pulls lots of data together from various sources...and offers to discuss what he has with each player named prior to relesing it...all refuse...

Then once released, they attack the report...without presenting any data themselves...(at least to date...)

OK, Court of public opinion...I think the players named had better take the offensive soon if they truely are innocent...

But a questiion to the real lawyers out there...In a Court of Law...what can we expect.....

There are about 80 players named in the Mitchell Report. Each player named would have to be discussed individually, as the quality and quantity of evidence varies as to each player.

Some are dead -- like Bigbie. Caught speaking to an informant through an FBI wiretap. Guilty.

The vast majority of names in this report was offered up by Radomski.

Radomski spoke to federal prosecutors, and Mitchell, under the threat of indictment. He offered his cooperation, and to give inculpatory statements as to the players he supplied, either in exchange for a plea deal, or in the hope he would not be prosecuted at all. Radomski is what the law would call a "co-conspirator" to an illegal conspiracy to obtain and distribute controlled dangerous substances.

The law universally recognizes that inculpatory statements from alleged co-cospirators are weak pieces of probative evidence. This is because a person put in the position of having to please the prosecutor, in order to cut a deal, has the motivation to say whatever the prosecutor wants to hear. The bigger the name, the better the deal.

Accordingly, the law seeks for the statements of co-conspirators to be supported by other, corroborative evidence. This is because the statement alone, without corroboration, is weak and insubstantial.

Radomski turned over Mitchell a fair amount of documentary evidence that supported his testimony as to the transactions he spoke about and the players involved.

I haven't gone through the list of players implicated by Radomski, and analyzed in my mind, the sufficiency of proofs as to each player. That is because Radomski turned over a fair amount of proof -- so much so that I have just assumed that the players identified were Radomski were sufficiently implicated.

Each player, though, has the right to have the proofs assessed on an individualized basis.

Nonetheless, I would generally say that if you were named by Radomski, you have problems.

Radomski supplied steroids and HGH to Brian McNamee. McNamee told Radomski that these were for his personal use. As a result of information supplied by Radomksi, the federal prosecutors questioned McNamee under the threat of an indictment, and then produced him to Mitchell.

McNamee claims to have supplied or administered steroids or HGH to four players who were named in the report: Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, Chuck Knoblauch, and David Justice.

McNamee had no proof that he sold PED to any of them and, in fact, stated he never received money for PED from any of them. This concession in his testimony probably resulted from the fact that he could not produce banking account deposit records, or any other records, which could support an allegation that he was paid for PED by any of these players.

Nonetheless, McNamee told the prosecutors he supplied or administered PED to these players.

He had no documentary proof. He offered no other corroborative evidence. Ultimately, Mitchell named all four in his report on the say-so of McNamee alone.

In my judgment, that was a critical error in his judgment, owing to the overall lack of probative value of an inculpatory statement of a co-conspirator.

Mitchell could have easily omitted the handful of players named by McNamee, owing to the lack of substantial proof, and still have a long list of names.

So why did Mitchell name them? Perhaps (and if I'm a lawyer for any of these players, this is where I focus) because McNamee implicated the biggest name of all -- Roger Clemens.

We all knew about Bonds. But outing Clemens is the most significant "breakthrough" of this report, which gives the report headline value.

Take Pettite, for example. McNamee claimed to have on one ocassion administered two HGH shots to Pettite in the summer of 2002, while Pettite was frustrated by his inability to rebound from an arm injury.

Why include a player who was, at most, a one-time offender based on insubstantial statements of McNamee?

Because Mitchell was determined to name Clemens. Thus, he could not leave out any of what McNamee told him --Mitchell would be laying the basis to impeach his own conclusions if he started being selective about what he would include emanating from McNamee.

And then there is the case of Brian Roberts. Ridiculous to include that.

Most players have no leg to stand on. But, in my judgment, the players named by McNamee cannot be lumped together with the players named by Radomski.

If you see a suit, it will come from either Brian Roberts or a player named by McNamee. And the suit will seek to destroy the credibility of McNamee and, as a consequence, the credibility of Mitchell for relying on that information.

You may also see the union seek to initiate an arbitration, the intent of which would be to undermine the process of the Mitchell Committee. I would guess in that arbitration, the union would focus on a few select test cases and undermine the findings as to specific players -- hoping that this would have the overall affect in the public's mind of undermining the whole report.

[Col Hogan]

joe....even I understand what you just posted...xbowx

Thanks...and if I need a lawyer...can I call you? xpeacex

[Gil Dobie]

Just another reason to add to the list why I could care less about the MLB.
All this garbage is the fault of the owners,managers, and players.
They destroyed baseball w/ their petty a$$ strikes and so they ALL turned their heads at this problem when guys started cheating and running up fake numbers because they new it would put people back in the seats.

Nothing is going to come of this report. Nothing.

Selig is a jellyfish and won't do crap. He'll talk a good game but until I see MVPs and record holders sitting out seasons w/ suspensions it's all just smoke and mirrors.

There are some players that did not participate in the cheating scandal. xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

The AGS Sports Court will come to order! Mr. Justice JoltinJoe presiding. ALL RISE!!xbowx xbowx

Who comprises this panel, Mr. Justice Ivytalk? is Mr. Justice McVeyrl on the bench as well? I have my seat here in the gallery (it's nice to watch somebody else work for a change :) )

[lambertjr]

There are some players that did not participate in the cheating scandal. xthumbsupx

Fair enough.
But they sure as hell didn't speak out against the ones that did cheat.
Like I said, they did it to themselves.

[dbackjon]

So Joe - now that Andy Pettitte has admitted to cheating, and confirmed McNamee's story, I think you and Clemens have a lot of explaining to do.

The evidence now tilts STRONGLY to Clemens being a long-time steriod user.

How do you like your crow??

[JoltinJoe]

So Joe - now that Andy Pettitte has admitted to cheating, and confirmed McNamee's story, I think you and Clemens have a lot of explaining to do.

The evidence now tilts STRONGLY to Clemens being a long-time steriod user.

How do you like your crow??

I never said Clemens didn't do it.

I said Mitchell's evidence was weak. And I still think it was poor judgment to include weak allegations.

But the report has been successful. We're all talking about who did what, and now the biggest fraud of them all, Bud Selig, claims to have the right to sit in judgment after implicitly condoning all this -- a that time, it was good for business.

Bud skates at Roger Clemens's expense.

And that's what all this is about.

But we can all sleep better because baseball has been saved from Andy Pettitte, who used HGH in passing. Oh, George Mitchell overlooks Angel Presinal and his client David Ortiz, plainly a systematic abuser -- can you say conflict of interest?

[dbackjon]

I never said Clemens didn't do it.

I said Mitchell's evidence was weak. And I still think it was poor judgment to include weak allegations.

But the report has been successful. We're all talking about who did what, and now the biggest fraud of them all, Bud Selig, claims to have the right to sit in judgment after implicitly condoning all this -- a that time, it was good for business.

Bud skates at Roger Clemens's expense.

And that's what all this is about.

Bud is just as much an issue as the rest.

Bigger fault, though, IMHO is Don Fehr and the MLBPA.

[JoltinJoe]

Bud is just as much an issue as the rest.

Bigger fault, though, IMHO is Don Fehr and the MLBPA.

The MLBPA is hardly sympathetic.

But Bud Selig has got to go if baseball is to save its soul.

[minuteman65]

But we can all sleep better because baseball has been saved from Andy Pettitte, who used HGH in passing. Oh, George Mitchell overlooks Angel Presinal and his client David Ortiz, plainly a systematic abuser -- can you say conflict of interest?

xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx

Get over it.

[JoltinJoe]

xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx

Get over it.

The Sox have won 2 WS titles largely due to David Ortiz. So you're fine with him.

But you absolutely ridicule Giants' fans who cheer Barry Bonds, don't you?

That's hypocritical.

http://www.nationalmea.org/ExBoard/images/Ostrich%20head%20in%20sand.jpg

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But we can all sleep better because baseball has been saved from Andy Pettitte, who used HGH in passing. Oh, George Mitchell overlooks Angel Presinal and his client David Ortiz, plainly a systematic abuser -- can you say conflict of interest?

You'll be surprised by this post JJ - I agree that when looking at Presinal, who worked with Ortiz, Ramon and Pedro Martinez, Vladimir Guererro, Robinson Cano, Bartolo Colon (who looked like he was coming off of HGH in October this year) and others is a shady figure. But he's a shady figure who doesn't leave the Dominican Republic, which may explain better why Mitchell stopped short of naming him. Getting guys from inside the US is one thing - internationally is quite a different matter.

Baseball is in this mess right now largely because Selig didn't make a zero-tolerance policy towards banned substances early on in the game, largely since he didn't have the cohones to take on Don Fehr at the MLBPA.

What's amazing at this steroid investigation is that you can't look at anything over the last 17 years in baseball without some some sort of raised eyebrow. Presinal first started working with Jose Rijo in 1990, a powerful fireballer who didn't have a complete season to his credit... until 1990, when he and two other fireballers in the bullpen (Myers and Dibble) carried the Reds to the title. You look at that trio again. Rijo was probably juicing - it explains perfectly his re-emergence. And what of Dibble, who had one great year then fell apart? What of Myers?

You can't look at any team, any achievement in MLB, and say that steroids couldn't have been involved. Pedro, Big Papi, Manny? Absolutely they could be steroid-driven. I'm a Red Sox fan, but I'm not afraid to say it. And as far as I'm concerned something is real fishy when the Red Sox GM is asking if Eric Gagne is a "steroid guy", the scout basically says "yes" and then the Sox go out and get him nine months later... talk about looking the other way.

The sport simply sucks. Following baseball for the last 17 years was basically all one huge fraud. xnonono2x

[JoltinJoe]

The sport simply sucks. Following baseball for the last 17 years was basically all one huge fraud. xnonono2x

Raise your hand if you feel like a sucker for getting excited about the McGwire/Sosa HR race in 1998.

I wish there was a "raise your hand" emoticon.xsmhx

[Cleets]

All MLB needs to do to fix the problem:

1) Hire an outside company to do the testing
2) Create an "open testing record" with complete transparency
3) Come out publicly and state: from this day forward Zero tolerance

a) One infraction = 24 month ban
b) Second infraction = lifetime ban = no hall of fame

now getting the Players Union to agree to those rules... impossible

xlolx