What teams deserved to be in but didn't get in

[penguinpower]

Who were the legitimate bubble teams left out?

[Utgrizfan]

I'd have to say UC-Davis, beat Sac State and had an injury to their best player when they lost a few games (injuries are taken under consideration apparently). Feel they should have gotten in over Chattanooga, but it is what it is not upset the Mocs got in.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Who were the legitimate bubble teams left out?


None

[taper]

The only teams that "deserve" to get in are the conference champ AQs. Might convince me of some cases of unbalanced schedules in massive conferences. Bubble teams take their chances.

[MTfan4life]

Replace any of the bubble teams with the team that lost to Howard by 30 two weeks ago.

[KPSUL]

UC Davis. They had the same Overall win - loss record as Sac St., a better Conference Record and won the head-to-head matchup.

[Houndawg]

UC Davis. They had the same Overall win - loss record as Sac St., a better Conference Record and won the head-to-head matchup.

True, but if they were flipped Sac State would have have a strong case too

[SDFS]

I would say remove North Carolina Central and either Chattanooga or Mercer. Replace with Holy Cross and UC Davis. It would be more interesting to me.

[Sitting Bull]

Holy Cross. They had three of four losses by a FG - and two of those were FBS teams. I would trade them in for the lowest MV team or possibly Chattanooga.

[POD Knows]

Replace any of the bubble teams with the team that lost to Howard by 30 two weeks ago.
Furman lost to one of the worst teams in the country and got a seed.

[WrenFGun]

I have no problem with the field. I was happy to see UIW not included. I’d have loved to see NC Central also excluded, but at least they had a decent win over Elon. In fact they went 3-0 against the CAA.

Holy Cross is a good team but … where is their good win?

I’d have taken UC Davis over NC Central, but no other beef really. Nice job by the committee.

[TribeGuy]

FCS Tournament #24 Play-in: NC Central @ UC-Davis.

Would that even seem fair?
Sheez.

Don't forget about Holy Cross/UT-Martin/W Car either.

[POD Knows]

I have no problem with the field. I was happy to see UIW not included. I’d have loved to see NC Central also excluded, but at least they had a decent win over Elon. In fact they went 3-0 against the CAA.

Holy Cross is a good team but … where is their good win?

I’d have taken UC Davis over NC Central, but no other beef really. Nice job by the committee.
I agree with this. Davis over NC Central and a hard no on HC.

[Mocs123]

It's hard to say they deserved to be in or not - but WCU was a playoff caliber team when they were healthy. They had a few injuries to some key players that bit them at the wrong time, but they were a good team.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

True, but if they were flipped Sac State would have have a strong case too

Exactly, and since either can be legitimately argued it just doesn't make any difference which bit of mediocrity is chosen. 1/2 the teams in deserved it, 1/2 did not and just got the lucky bounce this time around. If you are in the last 4 in or out you definitely did not deserve jack ****.

[MTfan4life]

Furman lost to one of the worst teams in the country and got a seed.

No kidding. Take a blind resume look between three teams who finished 9-2.

Team A: Conference champ with an undefeated conference record. Played 28th toughest schedule. Only FCS loss was to a playoff team on Sept 2nd. Has won 9 games in a row to finish the season.
Team B: Conference champ with a 7-1 conference record. Played 68th toughest schedule. Only FCS loss was to a previously 1-9 team who lost to Presbyterian. Has won 0 games in a row to finish the season.
Team C: Conference co-champ with a 7-1 conference record. Played 39th toughest schedule. Only FCS loss was to the #5 seed in the playoffs. Has won 6 games in a row to finish the season.

Team B somehow was the highest seeded team of those three. Team C got the 8 seed. Team A is going on the road to start the playoffs.

[BlueGoldAg]

Bob Dunning of the Davis Enterprise had this to say about UC Davis being left out of the playoffs:


Head-to-head results are considered the gold standard when selecting teams for post-season play or to break ties in awarding automatic bids, but for some reason, the selection committee turned a blind eye to Saturday's Aggie victory.

Apparently, order of finish in one of the strongest conferences in the country was also irrelevant to committee members.

Getting screwed by the selection committee two years in a row is tough to take. Hard to imagine how tough this is on the Aggie players and coaches especially the graduating seniors.

[salukis1993]

Replace any of the bubble teams with the team that lost to Howard by 30 two weeks ago.

This

[penguinpower]

Was Holy Cross the Youngstown State of the last 23 years?

[Sader87]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.

[WileECoyote06]

Can anyone make a pic with an eagle with an evil villain moustache? I’m too old to learn photoshop; but I still want us to be represented as the villain of FCS.

[SteelSD]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.
And yet all those teams had the same record as HC. When the best thing you can claim about your team involves “close” and “lost” you really have no claim that you deserve anything.

And you’ll have to explain “regional” when talking about the Dakota’s and Youngstown Ohio.

[Paladin1aa]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.

We are glad to be in. We are decent and will win some games. But we have had 4 teams who were better than this years team and didn’t get in. Try living with that.

This division is a corrupt mess. Not every auto should be an auto. Criteria for at large are not evenly applied . Seeding and regionalization. Some participate and some go to a “bowl”.

However, the MVFC deserves many teams in. Schedule us and find out why.

Show no mercy.

[ysubigred]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.

Why you mad bro? Don't hate the playa hate the game.. YSU has been in your ambulance company's shoes more than once. The MVFC is a meat grinder, and about every week is a top 25 match up.

Until they do away with the "auto" bid there will be better teams eating thanksgiving dinner at granny's house..

[wcugrad95]

I saw WCU mentioned a couple of times. We were 2 wins away from being seeded, but so were about 20 other teams. Certainly true we had injuries that hurt us - missing a legit All-American RB for the showdown games with Furman and Mercer hurt our chances. But I don't know if we win either of those games with Desmond Reid in the lineup (Furman bottled us up and we just made a littany of mistakes against Mercer). We don't deserve to be in because we knew we needed a win yesterday and we didn't deliver. I can say lots of things about injuries in yesterday's game - starting QB goes down after the 2nd series and a starting O-lineman was out another series later (the 3rd starting lineman we have lost this year). But if you are a good team, you figure out how to win those games against a team you are supposed to be better than.

We ended the season with the same record as UTC, we beat the Mocs at their place, but they got the call and we didn't. So I guess I could say if they deserved to be in we did, too. But I am not going to say that as our best arguments are we had injuries and we lost some close games that we maybe could have had a chance to win. Best win was over UTC, our best lossess... in the end, who cares about your losses?

[FU_Paladin08]

Furman lost to one of the worst teams in the country and got a seed.

It seems the committee looked at the body of work and perhaps offered some grace since they played without the starting QB and RB.

[semobison]

Why you mad bro? Don't hate the playa hate the game.. YSU has been in your ambulance company's shoes more than once. The MVFC is a meat grinder, and about every week is a top 25 match up.

Until they do away with the "auto" bid there will be better teams eating thanksgiving dinner at granny's house..

Yeah, the 7th and 8th Valley teams, UNI and Illinois St. would beat a half dozen of the field! The FCS is watered down. The recent decline of the CAA, Southern and Southland conferences has hurt the FCS brand.

[ngineer]

Holy Cross. They had three of four losses by a FG - and two of those were FBS teams. I would trade them in for the lowest MV team or possibly Chattanooga.

This. +1

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Holy Cross would have been a tough out had they gotten in. Between their coaching and physicality, the Crusaders would have made things miserable for 60 minutes for someone. However, by scheduling two FBS games as a PL program (no redshirting, limited 5th year guys, etc) you're basically accepting two losses barring an aberration (that's what FCS wins over FBS are). The Harvard loss, Sluka's turnovers, at the baseball stadium was a killer. 8-3 with wins over Harvard, Yale and Colgate, while not going to impress some here, and no bad losses is enough to sneak them in. The other issue is the Crusaders had some clear flaws, shaky pass defense and Sluka really never developed as a passer, which limited their ceiling to a Top 15-20 team rather than Top 5.

The PL has gotten better because the coaching has gotten better, Chesney and Troxell are the real deal and Conlin can at least recruit well. The other nice thing is with only 6 league games, PL teams have the opportunity to schedule freely in the OOC to make-up for some a low hanging fruit (like Lehigh right now) that exists within the league.

[FUBeAR]

Can anyone make a pic with an eagle with an evil villain moustache? I’m too old to learn photoshop; but I still want us to be represented as the villain of FCS.
Ask and ye shall receive...

https://i.postimg.cc/GmdkhhXR/NCCU-Eagle.jpg

[Gil Dobie]

Holy Cross. They had three of four losses by a FG - and two of those were FBS teams. I would trade them in for the lowest MV team or possibly Chattanooga.

Dawgs! Difference between Chatty and the lowest MVFC team IMO. I had UCD in over Chatty.

[Gil Dobie]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.

The BC team that HC lost to, also lost to NIU. SIU beat that NIU team. The FBS wins were important to the committee. See Sac St.

[apaladin]

Yes Furman lost to a bad team without their starting QB who has yet to lose to an FCS team, starting all conference RB and a couple of O linemen. Montana State lost by 30 their last game and got a higher seed so there.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross. They had three of four losses by a FG - and two of those were FBS teams. I would trade them in for the lowest MV team or possibly Chattanooga..

Yes.

[SDFS]

Yes Furman lost to a bad team without their starting QB who has yet to lose to an FCS team, starting all conference RB and a couple of O linemen. Montana State lost by 30 their last game and got a higher seed so there.

What?? I don't think your argument is as strong as you think. One lost to a 1 win team; The other lost to the #2 overall seed.

[Houndawg]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.

....not to put too fine a point on it but FCS football isa regional, second-tier affair. Part of its charm..

[WileECoyote06]

Ask and ye shall receive...

https://i.postimg.cc/GmdkhhXR/NCCU-Eagle.jpg

You are a god among insects. Perfect. lemme put this in my signature.

[penguinpower]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.

[Paladin1aa]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.

Actually, there is more than one. Enjoy eating that turkey while far lesser teams get blown out. 🍺

[MR. CHICKEN]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.


.....IT'S ABOUT INCLUSION......DUH NCAA......WANTS ALL COMERS.......TA HAVE UH SHOT.....IN DUH DANCE......YA KNOW....."DUH TOTAL COLLEGE EXPERIENCE"......xsighx.....BRAWK!

[lucchesicourt]

FBS wins didn't count last year. But, do this year?

[Ivytalk]

Yale.xcoffeex

Wait, what?:D

[RahRahRabbits]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.

I'm sure there are quite a few P5 basketball programs that would agree with you that autobids from lesser conferences are bad. If they drop them from the FCS playoffs, the argument for dropping them from March Madness would gain steam considerably.

Gotta keep the autobids. Now, if we happened to have qualifying rules about a minimum number of scholarships or something that every conference would meet outside of the Pioneer.... then that could be something I'd get behind.

[ST_Lawson]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.

Are there teams that got left out that are better than some of the auto-bids?....absolutely. UNI, ILSU, EIU...all should be able to defeat a team like Drake pretty easily.
But I think keeping the auto-bid tells members of every conference participating in the playoffs that they could have a shot at the championship. They have hope and something to fight for. This is what makes the FCS playoff system so much better than the FBS systems have been in the past (it's getting better, but not quite there yet). Besides...if the goal is to find out who is the best team in the FCS...none of the teams in the "last 4 in" or "first 4 out" were going to be in that conversation anyway. There are 14 "at-large" selections currently...14 teams that didn't win their conference.

Personally, I think it's more important to include a representative from every conference than it is for a couple of teams barely in (or barely out) of the top 25 to be playing postseason football.

[UNHWildcat18]

It is what it is.....but I have a hard time thinking that HC isn't one of the best 24 FCS teams in the country. They have 3 of the best players in the country at this level at QB, WR and LB.

Six teams from the MVFC is absurd imo....not that they aren't solid but it's a bit much and makes the FCS playoffs seem like a regional, second-tier affair.

I could say the same thing about UNH. UNH made their bed by giving games away and making stupid mistakes. I'd put a 6-5 UNH against a good chunk of the field and feel confident. We dug our own grave though sadly.

Also I agree about the MVFC. The 4th,5th,6th team have 1 win against a top 3 mvfc team and that was UND over NDSU...
I know depth of the league is a factor but another team in the bubble probably earned that spot over a 6th mvfc team who lost to NDSU USD and SDSU........

[UNHWildcat18]

Are there teams that got left out that are better than some of the auto-bids?....absolutely. UNI, ILSU, EIU...all should be able to defeat a team like Drake pretty easily.
But I think keeping the auto-bid tells members of every conference participating in the playoffs that they could have a shot at the championship. They have hope and something to fight for. This is what makes the FCS playoff system so much better than the FBS systems have been in the past (it's getting better, but not quite there yet). Besides...if the goal is to find out who is the best team in the FCS...none of the teams in the "last 4 in" or "first 4 out" were going to be in that conversation anyway. There are 14 "at-large" selections currently...14 teams that didn't win their conference.

Personally, I think it's more important to include a representative from every conference than it is for a couple of teams barely in (or barely out) of the top 25 to be playing postseason football.

To be fair I think the Pioneer league having a bid is absurd. They are D3 football, they don't offer scholarships. I'd be completely okay if the NCAA demoted them. Drake lost to SDSU and UND by a combined score of 125-14......... They have no business being in the playoffs.

[caribbeanhen]

Yale.xcoffeex

Wait, what?:D

Yale vs The Rattlers
celebration playoff game

[DSUrocks07]

Can anyone make a pic with an eagle with an evil villain moustache? I’m too old to learn photoshop; but I still want us to be represented as the villain of FCS.no mustache, but here you go33180

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

[crusader11]

To be fair I think the Pioneer league having a bid is absurd. They are D3 football, they don't offer scholarships. I'd be completely okay if the NCAA demoted them. Drake lost to SDSU and UND by a combined score of 125-14......... They have no business being in the playoffs.

This.

Here's a crazy stat -- the PFL's record against FCS schools outside of their conference this season was...wait for it...1-16. The lone win being Presbyterian over Furman (transitive property tells me Presby is better than Furman! Ha.)

The average score in these games was 41-11.

There were some seasons were San Diego and Dayton were legitimately solid teams. That's no more.

Against sub-D1 schools, their record was 11-4.

It's time to end the charade. The PFL plays just as many non-conference games against D2, D3 and NAIA schools as they do other Division I schools. Then, for the remaining eight games on the schedule, it's against each other. This is a good NAIA conference masquerading as Division I football.

This league has zero reason for receiving an auto bid.

[Sitting Bull]

FBS wins didn't count last year. But, do this year?

They did count last year which is why Delaware got into the field with a 7-4 record. It was the win at Navy along with their ability to sell tickets that got them in.

[ST_Lawson]

To be fair I think the Pioneer league having a bid is absurd. They are D3 football, they don't offer scholarships. I'd be completely okay if the NCAA demoted them. Drake lost to SDSU and UND by a combined score of 125-14......... They have no business being in the playoffs.

I can understand the argument against the Pioneer receiving a bid because of the "no scholarship" thing. They don't really try to compete at the FCS level...they just want to be a DI school for other sports, and also want to have a football team. Most of them would probably be better off dropping football completely and putting that money towards basketball and other sports.
I'll say I'm "on the fence" about the Pioneer getting an auto-bid. With 24 teams in the playoffs, I'm ok with it. If we were still at 16 or 8, then no.

[The Yo Show]

This.

Here's a crazy stat -- the PFL's record against FCS schools outside of their conference this season was...wait for it...1-16. The lone win being Presbyterian over Furman (transitive property tells me Presby is better than Furman! Ha.)

The average score in these games was 41-11.

There were some seasons were San Diego and Dayton were legitimately solid teams. That's no more.

Against sub-D1 schools, their record was 11-4.

It's time to end the charade. The PFL plays just as many non-conference games against D2, D3 and NAIA schools as they do other Division I schools. Then, for the remaining eight games on the schedule, it's against each other. This is a good NAIA conference masquerading as Division I football.

This league has zero reason for receiving an auto bid.

Am I in a parallel reality? Furman didn't play presby this season let alone lose to them?

[Sitting Bull]

This.

Here's a crazy stat -- the PFL's record against FCS schools outside of their conference this season was...wait for it...1-16. The lone win being Presbyterian over Furman (transitive property tells me Presby is better than Furman! Ha.)

The average score in these games was 41-11.

There were some seasons were San Diego and Dayton were legitimately solid teams. That's no more.

Against sub-D1 schools, their record was 11-4.

It's time to end the charade. The PFL plays just as many non-conference games against D2, D3 and NAIA schools as they do other Division I schools. Then, for the remaining eight games on the schedule, it's against each other. This is a good NAIA conference masquerading as Division I football.

This league has zero reason for receiving an auto bid.

First, the Presbyterian win was vs Wofford, not Furman.

I have no problem with the PL champ getting in just so they have an excuse to bring in an 8th MV team.

[caribbeanhen]

This.

Here's a crazy stat -- the PFL's record against FCS schools outside of their conference this season was...wait for it...1-16. The lone win being Presbyterian over Furman (transitive property tells me Presby is better than Furman! Ha.)

The average score in these games was 41-11.

There were some seasons were San Diego and Dayton were legitimately solid teams. That's no more.

Against sub-D1 schools, their record was 11-4.

It's time to end the charade. The PFL plays just as many non-conference games against D2, D3 and NAIA schools as they do other Division I schools. Then, for the remaining eight games on the schedule, it's against each other. This is a good NAIA conference masquerading as Division I football.

This league has zero reason for receiving an auto bid.

Yes Yes and Yes

[Sitting Bull]

....not to put too fine a point on it but FCS football isa regional, second-tier affair. Part of its charm..

Well the flip side of that is how FBS has tried to manage their inept non NY bowl game schedules. Trying to get fans in Mobile to see two G5 teams play isn’t really helping turnstiles. Now you may notice they are using regionality in many of their bowl games - still struggling to get crowds that match an FCS semifinal games - and not even close to the FCS championship.

It’s tough to find any charm in G5 football.

[crusader11]

Am I in a parallel reality? Furman didn't play presby this season let alone lose to them?

Sorry, meant Presby over Wofford...who beat Furman.

[penguinpower]

Are there teams that got left out that are better than some of the auto-bids?....absolutely. UNI, ILSU, EIU...all should be able to defeat a team like Drake pretty easily.
But I think keeping the auto-bid tells members of every conference participating in the playoffs that they could have a shot at the championship. They have hope and something to fight for. This is what makes the FCS playoff system so much better than the FBS systems have been in the past (it's getting better, but not quite there yet). Besides...if the goal is to find out who is the best team in the FCS...none of the teams in the "last 4 in" or "first 4 out" were going to be in that conversation anyway. There are 14 "at-large" selections currently...14 teams that didn't win their conference.

Personally, I think it's more important to include a representative from every conference than it is for a couple of teams barely in (or barely out) of the top 25 to be playing postseason football.

This is equivalent to a participation trophy in my book. You never know with a team like UNI, for example, they could go on a run now you won't see it

[Paladin1aa]

Duquesne, Drake, Nichols….. all will face a MVFC team who wasn’t the league Champ. Yet they are their leagues Champ. Watch who wins.

There are only two power conferences in FCS. The MVFC is well within their rights to have 6 teams in. Their 6th, 5th and 3rd place teams are all going to play other league champs. Let’s see how that works out. It’s a tournament. Only the best should be in it. Not fakes.

YSU has a national title and didn’t win the MVFC that year.

[Paladin1aa]

This is equivalent to a participation trophy in my book. You never know with a team like UNI, for example, they could go on a run now you won't see it

Team Choke ? 😂

Run, maybe a couple of games. Title ?

Ah, no. 😎

[DSUrocks07]

Duquesne, Drake, Nichols….. all will face a MVFC team who wasn’t the league Champ. Yet they are their leagues Champ. Watch who wins.

There are only two power conferences in FCS. The MVFC is well within their rights to have 6 teams in. Their 6th, 5th and 3rd place teams are all going to play other league champs. Let’s see how that works out. It’s a tournament. Only the best should be in it. Not fakes.

YSU has a national title and didn’t win the MVFC that year.But then if Duquesne, Drake or Nicholls win, it's just a fluke right? And the 5th-8th place MVFC still deserved to be there?

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

[SteelSD]

Gotta keep the autobids. Now, if we happened to have qualifying rules about a minimum number of scholarships or something that every conference would meet outside of the Pioneer.... then that could be something I'd get behind.
100% this except the Pioneer would not be exempt. Considering their representative in the tournament lost to a NAIA school should say it all.

[ysubigred]

Team Choke ? [emoji23]

Run, maybe a couple of games. Title ?

Ah, no. [emoji41]I am still baffled at how UNI is the top MVFC team in terms of conference trophies, but zero NCs..

Kind of feel sorry for them..... NOT!!

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

[dbackjon]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.

No autobids and it is back to a 16-team tournament.

[The Yo Show]

Sorry, meant Presby over Wofford...who beat Furman.

Ok fair

[Paladin1aa]

But then if Duquesne, Drake or Nicholls win, it's just a fluke right? And the 5th-8th place MVFC still deserved to be there?

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

We can talk after this week end.

[WileECoyote06]

no mustache, but here you go33180

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

lol

another great entry.

[SteelSD]

Also I agree about the MVFC. The 4th,5th,6th team have 1 win against a top 3 mvfc team and that was UND over NDSU...
I know depth of the league is a factor but another team in the bubble probably earned that spot over a 6th mvfc team who lost to NDSU USD and SDSU........
The field would be quite small if the bar for entry was to not go 0-3 against SDSU, USD, and NDSU.

[Bisonator]

UC Davis has a legitimate gripe IMO, should have been in over Sac St.

[penguinpower]

Team Choke ? 😂

Run, maybe a couple of games. Title ?

Ah, no. 😎

Well, I think there are very few that have a legitimate chance. My point is that they're capable of an upset before bowing out. That's all.

[DFW HOYA]

To be fair I think the Pioneer league having a bid is absurd. They are D3 football, they don't offer scholarships. I'd be completely okay if the NCAA demoted them. Drake lost to SDSU and UND by a combined score of 125-14......... They have no business being in the playoffs.

Non-scholarship doesn't mean "Division III". A lot of Division I schools on this forum don't offer scholarships in volleyball or baseball or track and none of them are called Division III.

The divisions were set up based on number of sports offered and spending. Stetson has the highest Pioneer budget at $2.1 million and the average PFL school spends $1.5 million. Outside of Mary Hardin Baylor (TX), no Div. III school spends more than $1.2 million, and the average is $535,000.

[crusader11]

The Pioneer's showing since 2013, when they received their auto-bid --

Davidson 0 - Richmond 41
Davidson 21 - Kennesaw St 48
Davidson 14 - Jacksonville St 49
San Diego 3 - Northern Iowa 17
San Diego 30 - Nicholls 49
San Diego 41 - Northern Arizona 10 // San Diego 3 - NDSU 38
San Diego 35 - Cal Poly 21 // San Diego 7 - NDSU 45
Dayton 7 - Western Illinois 24
San Diego 14 - Montana 52
Butler 0 - Tennessee St 31

San Diego deserves credit. They had a legitimately good team for a stretch. Beyond that, it's been ugly and is showing zero signs of getting better.

[taper]

Non-scholarship doesn't mean "Division III". A lot of Division I schools on this forum don't offer scholarships in volleyball or baseball or track and none of them are called Division III.

The divisions were set up based on number of sports offered and spending. Stetson has the highest Pioneer budget at $2.1 million and the average PFL school spends $1.5 million. Outside of Mary Hardin Baylor (TX), no Div. III school spends more than $1.2 million, and the average is $535,000.
Yes, non-scholarship means Division 3. That is its entire purpose. Internally rationalize it any way you want but the separate divisions exist for a reason. If you're not willing to be part of the big boys then you have other options.

I'm beginning to think pay for play is a good idea to force that decision on programs. It's not like collegiate athletics are still amateur.

[Puddin Tane]

We can talk after this week end.

dude, youre riding on a Dakota coat tail. Ysu has one relevant season in last 20.

the lowly Slc had uiw go far last year, departed sammy won a natty in 2020, semi in 2021. Get over yourself

oh…and UIW shoulda been in

[Puddin Tane]

Ask and ye shall receive...

https://i.postimg.cc/GmdkhhXR/NCCU-Eagle.jpg


i dunno..kinda looks like a flaming Geraldo Rivera. More blood, less stache

[UNHWildcat18]

Non-scholarship doesn't mean "Division III". A lot of Division I schools on this forum don't offer scholarships in volleyball or baseball or track and none of them are called Division III.

The divisions were set up based on number of sports offered and spending. Stetson has the highest Pioneer budget at $2.1 million and the average PFL school spends $1.5 million. Outside of Mary Hardin Baylor (TX), no Div. III school spends more than $1.2 million, and the average is $535,000.

Respectfully, regardless of the fact you are correct my point still stands, they have no business being in the playoffs. They don’t offer scholarships, I don’t give a rats ass what they spend on budget, hell it’s mostly travel I’d imagine.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, there's some semantics involved, but here are three FCS schools: Which is a deserving Division I program?

A. Enrollment: 7,643. Football budget: $3,104,498. Its 2023 average attendance: 2,915.
B. Enrollment: 8,305. Football budget: $4,091,711. Its 2023 average attendance: 4,088.
C. Enrollment: 12,060. Football budget: $8,183,650. Its 2023 average attendance: 11,581.

A: Western Illinois
B. Indiana State
C. Yale

[RahRahRabbits]

The Pioneer's showing since 2013, when they received their auto-bid --

Davidson 0 - Richmond 41
Davidson 21 - Kennesaw St 48
Davidson 14 - Jacksonville St 49
San Diego 3 - Northern Iowa 17
San Diego 30 - Nicholls 49
San Diego 41 - Northern Arizona 10 // San Diego 3 - NDSU 38
San Diego 35 - Cal Poly 21 // San Diego 7 - NDSU 45
Dayton 7 - Western Illinois 24
San Diego 14 - Montana 52
Butler 0 - Tennessee St 31

San Diego deserves credit. They had a legitimately good team for a stretch. Beyond that, it's been ugly and is showing zero signs of getting better.

Or is the secret to simply play a Big Sky school? 2-1 in the playoffs against them as far as I can tell.

[FUBeAR]

i dunno..kinda looks like a flaming Geraldo Rivera. More blood, less stache
Wow - kinda critical of FUBeAR’s budding art talent, aren’t we?

Feel free to share your dastardly NCCU Football eagle masterpiece when it’s finished.

[Catbooster]

Duquesne, Drake, Nichols….. all will face a MVFC team who wasn’t the league Champ. Yet they are their leagues Champ. Watch who wins.

There are only two power conferences in FCS. The MVFC is well within their rights to have 6 teams in. Their 6th, 5th and 3rd place teams are all going to play other league champs. Let’s see how that works out. It’s a tournament. Only the best should be in it. Not fakes.

YSU has a national title and didn’t win the MVFC that year.
Were you sixth place in the MVFC that year? Fifth? Fourth?

[POD Knows]

Am I in a parallel reality? Furman didn't play presby this season let alone lose to them?He referenced transitive property in his post.

[Professor Chaos]

The Pioneer's showing since 2013, when they received their auto-bid --

Davidson 0 - Richmond 41
Davidson 21 - Kennesaw St 48
Davidson 14 - Jacksonville St 49
San Diego 3 - Northern Iowa 17
San Diego 30 - Nicholls 49
San Diego 41 - Northern Arizona 10 // San Diego 3 - NDSU 38
San Diego 35 - Cal Poly 21 // San Diego 7 - NDSU 45
Dayton 7 - Western Illinois 24
San Diego 14 - Montana 52
Butler 0 - Tennessee St 31

San Diego deserves credit. They had a legitimately good team for a stretch. Beyond that, it's been ugly and is showing zero signs of getting better.
The question, in my mind at least, is should the Pioneer be a D1 football conference when they don't give out athletic scholarships to football players? I'd argue the answer should be no but they are and as long as they are I'm all for giving their champion and automatic bid to the playoffs.

I think there's a certain purity about the FCS level of football because every team starts day 1 in control of their own destiny. The only thing preventing any FCS team from winning a national championship is their opponents between the lines - not a selection committee or media market they're in/fan following that have that does or doesn't command the attention of an elite conference. That because of the autobids.

With 14 at-large spots now there's plenty of room to ensure that teams who didn't win their conference but have a chance to make a deep run are able to compete in the playoffs. Give the lesser conference champion the spot over a 3rd/4th/5th/6th place team from a better league. Neither has a realistic shot at a national championship but this at least gives everyone in the subdivision playoff access if they keep winning.

[Puddin Tane]

Wow - kinda critical of FUBeAR’s budding art talent, aren’t we?

Feel free to share your dastardly NCCU Football eagle masterpiece when it’s finished.

naw, FUBeAR…nice effort

[dbackjon]

The question, in my mind at least, is should the Pioneer be a D1 football conference when they don't give out athletic scholarships to football players? I'd argue the answer should be no but they are and as long as they are I'm all for giving their champion and automatic bid to the playoffs.

I think there's a certain purity about the FCS level of football because every team starts day 1 in control of their own destiny. The only thing preventing any FCS team from winning a national championship is their opponents between the lines - not a selection committee or media market they're in/fan following that have that does or doesn't command the attention of an elite conference. That because of the autobids.

With 14 at-large spots now there's plenty of room to ensure that teams who didn't win their conference but have a chance to make a deep run are able to compete in the playoffs. Give the lesser conference champion the spot over a 3rd/4th/5th/6th place team from a better league. Neither has a realistic shot at a national championship but this at least gives everyone in the subdivision playoff access if they keep winning.

+100000

[FUBeAR]

naw, FUBeAR…nice effort
LOL - this AI ish is kinda fun. Hoping, next week, to ‘draw’ one of several Bears shredding a hutch full of bunny rabbits …. Gnashing teeth, flying claws and bunny blood everywhere! Not sure that’ll get past their (most likely PETA audited) terms of service … but as an ‘Artist” FUBeAR would consider suing for his freedom of expression to be, um, free.

[The Yo Show]

Were you sixth place in the MVFC that year? Fifth? Fourth?

3rd place out of 7 teams in conference at the time.

This year we are in a 4 way tie for 3rd place but there are 12 teams in the conference

[wapiti]

How about the other side of this question?

Teams that are in, but should not be:
Drake
Duquense
North Carolina Central
and maybe even Lafayette

[Houndawg]

I could say the same thing about UNH. UNH made their bed by giving games away and making stupid mistakes. I'd put a 6-5 UNH against a good chunk of the field and feel confident. We dug our own grave though sadly.

Also I agree about the MVFC. The 4th,5th,6th team have 1 win against a top 3 mvfc team and that was UND over NDSU...
I know depth of the league is a factor but another team in the bubble probably earned that spot over a 6th mvfc team who lost to NDSU USD and SDSU........

The 6th place MVFC team gave the National Champions their toughest game of the year, lost to USD on a blown call on the tying TD, has an FBS win, and thumped Austin Peay soundly early in the season - they wouldn't finish sixth in your league.

[ElCid]

For those that were left out, let this burn into your skull for a bit....... THERE'S A FOOTBALL TEAM PLAYING NEXT WEEK FROM A CONFERENCE THAT IS UNCOMPETITIVE, WHO INVESTS VERY LITTLE INTO FOOTBALL AND WILL BE EASILY BEATEN BECAUSE OF THE AUTOBID.

The Autobid is stupid. I say keep it at 24 but no more autobid. Put the real top 24 in the tournament.

Nope. Every conf should get a place at the table. That's what "at larges" are for. Anyone that wants to whine can win their conf. It's just as easy to say, teams that didn't win their conf have already proved they don't belong because, well, they didn't win their conf. Teams that were at least close to winning their conf, at least for the better confs, usually get an at large. And the Pioneer has knocked off a few teams over the years. It's not like they are O'fer.

[penguinpower]

Nope. Every conf should get a place at the table. That's what "at larges" are for. Anyone that wants to whine can win their conf. It's just as easy to say, teams that didn't win their conf have already proved they don't belong because, well, they didn't win their conf. Teams that were at least close to winning their conf, at least for the better confs, usually get an at large. And the Pioneer has knocked off a few teams over the years. It's not like they are O'fer.


If it stays this way, you won't ever have the best teams in the tournament. I think it should be reserved for the best teams and the teams putting in the money to fund a competitive football program.

Looks like there are 2 opinions on this.

[taper]

Nope. Every conf should get a place at the table. That's what "at larges" are for. Anyone that wants to whine can win their conf. It's just as easy to say, teams that didn't win their conf have already proved they don't belong because, well, they didn't win their conf. Teams that were at least close to winning their conf, at least for the better confs, usually get an at large. And the Pioneer has knocked off a few teams over the years. It's not like they are O'fer.
You misunderstand. It's not that every conference shouldn't get an AQ, it's that non-scholarship teams shouldn't be in Division 1.

[ElCid]

If it stays this way, you won't ever have the best teams in the tournament. I think it should be reserved for the best teams and the teams putting in the money to fund a competitive football program.

Looks like there are 2 opinions on this.

Just depends on how you look at it. If it stays this way, I bet, at the very least, we will have the best team from each conf in the tournament. I'm pretty sure this is why most teams have a full slate of conf games each year.

And determining the champ has little to do with how much money any team spends. If it did, then why even play. Just find out who spent the most and crown them. I know, that is ridiculous. But so is establishing money as a determining factor.

[dbackjon]

If it stays this way, you won't ever have the best teams in the tournament. I think it should be reserved for the best teams and the teams putting in the money to fund a competitive football program.

Looks like there are 2 opinions on this.


Is the 14th best at-large really a better choice than the PFL champ?

By your logic, the Horizon League will never get a bid to the NCAA Basketball Tournament, since the champ is never one of the 68 best teams.

And once you are at the 12-14th at-large, it is a crap shoot. I believe that UC-Davis should have been in, and far more deserving that Youngstown State.

Since you don't think they should be in the playoffs, the next logical step is to exclude wins over teams from that conference. YSU's win over Valpo no longer counts. YSU only won 6 "Real" games so is now out

UC-Davis has 7 Full scholarship FCS wins, so clearly more deserving of an at-large bid than YSU

[dbackjon]

You misunderstand. It's not that every conference shouldn't get an AQ, it's that non-scholarship teams shouldn't be in Division 1.

Where do you suggest they play? DIII doesn't want them, since in many cases, like Dayton, St. Thomas, etc they have athletic spending and resources that far outstrip DIII teams.

Trust me, the playoffs are just fine without the 7th best MVFC team in it.

[penguinpower]

You misunderstand. It's not that every conference shouldn't get an AQ, it's that non-scholarship teams shouldn't be in Division 1.

Totally agree!

[POD Knows]

Where do you suggest they play? DIII doesn't want them, since in many cases, like Dayton, St. Thomas, etc they have athletic spending and resources that far outstrip DIII teams.

Trust me, the playoffs are just fine without the 7th best MVFC team in it.Get rid of the Dayton rule, these colleges can stay in D1 for stupid basketball and move down in Football. D2/D3/NAIA, whatever works. I doubt they would be competitive in D2. I do agree that conference winners in FCS should get an autobid but these guys shouldn't be in the conference. There needs to be some type of standard to be in FCS outside of well, we are pretty good at basketball

[AmsterBison]

IMO, 16 teams deserve to be in every year... the last 8 in should be grateful for a shot, and the last 4 out don't have much to complain about. Conclusion: UC Davis got screwed.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Pioneer's showing since 2013, when they received their auto-bid --

Davidson 0 - Richmond 41
Davidson 21 - Kennesaw St 48
Davidson 14 - Jacksonville St 49
San Diego 3 - Northern Iowa 17
San Diego 30 - Nicholls 49
San Diego 41 - Northern Arizona 10 // San Diego 3 - NDSU 38
San Diego 35 - Cal Poly 21 // San Diego 7 - NDSU 45
Dayton 7 - Western Illinois 24
San Diego 14 - Montana 52
Butler 0 - Tennessee St 31

San Diego deserves credit. They had a legitimately good team for a stretch. Beyond that, it's been ugly and is showing zero signs of getting better.

Better than the MEAC in that time frame. The MEAC hasn't won a playoff game since 1999, and yet they're still getting AT LARGE bids.

And for the record, I'm not upset at NC Central getting over HC. Just pointing out a fact. Central went 8-1 against FCS and beat two decent CAA teams. I was resigned to the fact they were stealing a spot ever since they lost to Howard. So no sour grapes here. I think we'd beat them 4 times out of 5 but it is what is.

[DFW HOYA]

Get rid of the Dayton rule, these colleges can stay in D1 for stupid basketball and move down in Football. D2/D3/NAIA, whatever works. I doubt they would be competitive in D2. I do agree that conference winners in FCS should get an autobid but these guys shouldn't be in the conference. There needs to be some type of standard to be in FCS outside of well, we are pretty good at basketball

No more than one or two Pioneer schools would drop down--there is zero incentive for the Ivy to do so. Harvard would beat DIII teams by 50 or more points every week.

[ysubigred]

How about the other side of this question?

Teams that are in, but should not be:
Drake
Duquense
North Carolina Central
and maybe even LafayetteDelaware

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

[NY Crusader 2010]

Get rid of the Dayton rule, these colleges can stay in D1 for stupid basketball and move down in Football. D2/D3/NAIA, whatever works. I doubt they would be competitive in D2. I do agree that conference winners in FCS should get an autobid but these guys shouldn't be in the conference. There needs to be some type of standard to be in FCS outside of well, we are pretty good at basketball

I agree with this. Ultimately, reversal of the Dayton Rule could be a trickle-down effect coming from the number of changes coming down the pipe in this new world of college sports. Particularly, the fact that the entire conference structure is based on one sport (football) at the higher levels. Divisional and conference structures should one day be more of a sport-by-sport basis. For example, I'm sure all the old Pac 10 schools in AZ, CA, WA and OR would all be happy playing in a league with each other in every sport besides football. But football is what drives the apple cart for all sports, and it financially doesn't make sense for that group to stay together IN FOOTBALL. UCLA didn't join the Big Ten because they thought it would be awesome to start basketball rivalries with Maryland and Indiana.

And as far as divisional structure, there are so many examples. Holy Cross is effectively playing at a Division III level in M/W Tennis, M/W Golf, Men's Track/XC and M/W Swimming. Many of our non-conference events are against lower division teams and then we get our asses handed to us in the Patriot League Championship meets and matches. It's a big deal when if our swim team wins the Worcester City Championship against WPI and Clark. Would it ruin the integrity of DIII sports to have Holy Cross Golf competing in an NCAA regional with Connecticut College and Middlebury? Same thing with the Pioneer Football schools. Some would probably be somewhat competitive in DII and others would be a better fit in DIII. But if Drake happens to be a perfect fit for a DII conference in the Midwest, there shouldn't be an NCAA rule banning them from playing at that level, so long as that specific sport stays at that division's threshold for scholarships, roster size, funding, etc.

[KPSUL]

The 6th place MVFC team gave the National Champions their toughest game of the year, lost to USD on a blown call on the tying TD, has an FBS win, and thumped Austin Peay soundly early in the season - they wouldn't finish sixth in your league.

Get off your high Saluki Horse.

Southern Ill won 4 conference games this season, 3 over the bottom of the MVFC: 0-8 conf, 0-11 overall Western Ill, 1-7, 1-10 Indiana St.; and 1-7, 2-9 Murray St. Your signature conference win was over 3-5 Conf, 4-7 overall Missouri St.

Do the math, the combined total overall wins for the 4 teams you beat in the MVFC was 7.

[DSUrocks07]

If it stays this way, you won't ever have the best teams in the tournament. I think it should be reserved for the best teams and the teams putting in the money to fund a competitive football program.

Looks like there are 2 opinions on this.If you want the "best teams", then just the Top 8 should be in.

We're basically all just arguing which second tier teams will give those top 8 a run for their money anyways.

You can go ahead and put in those extra 4th-7th place "power conference" teams. They would still get rocked by those top 8 squads. And even in the case of an "upset", isn't the goal finding out the best team? Or just who would give the best games?

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

[Gil Dobie]

Get off your high Saluki Horse.

Southern Ill won 4 conference games this season, 3 over the bottom of the MVFC: 0-8 conf, 0-11 overall Western Ill, 1-7, 1-10 Indiana St.; and 1-7, 2-9 Murray St. Your signature conference win was over 3-5 Conf, 4-7 overall Missouri St.

Do the math, the combined total overall wins for the 4 teams you beat in the MVFC was 7.

NIU win was the biggest, HC lost to BC, and BC lost to NIU. Kind of think that didn't get past the committee.

[atthewbon]

If the Pioneer teams could would they drop down to D3 football if the Dayton rule didn't exist? I'm in favor of auto-bids because as others have said, I think every team should be able to control their own destiny. The problem with removing it is you might not allow those good San Diego teams who can win games in the playoffs in if they don't have an outbid.

[atthewbon]

Get off your high Saluki Horse.

Southern Ill won 4 conference games this season, 3 over the bottom of the MVFC: 0-8 conf, 0-11 overall Western Ill, 1-7, 1-10 Indiana St.; and 1-7, 2-9 Murray St. Your signature conference win was over 3-5 Conf, 4-7 overall Missouri St.

Do the math, the combined total overall wins for the 4 teams you beat in the MVFC was 7.

This just shows how deep the MVFC is. Comparing what SIU was able to do in their out of conference games and then with how they struggled in conference is telling.

[Houndawg]

Nope. Every conf should get a place at the table. That's what "at larges" are for. Anyone that wants to whine can win their conf. It's just as easy to say, teams that didn't win their conf have already proved they don't belong because, well, they didn't win their conf. Teams that were at least close to winning their conf, at least for the better confs, usually get an at large. And the Pioneer has knocked off a few teams over the years. It's not like they are O'fer.

Sounds good on paper and I would agree if there were no unbalanced conferences

[Houndawg]

The question, in my mind at least, is should the Pioneer be a D1 football conference when they don't give out athletic scholarships to football players? I'd argue the answer should be no but they are and as long as they are I'm all for giving their champion and automatic bid to the playoffs.

I think there's a certain purity about the FCS level of football because every team starts day 1 in control of their own destiny. The only thing preventing any FCS team from winning a national championship is their opponents between the lines - not a selection committee or media market they're in/fan following that have that does or doesn't command the attention of an elite conference. That because of the autobids.

With 14 at-large spots now there's plenty of room to ensure that teams who didn't win their conference but have a chance to make a deep run are able to compete in the playoffs. Give the lesser conference champion the spot over a 3rd/4th/5th/6th place team from a better league. Neither has a realistic shot at a national championship but this at least gives everyone in the subdivision playoff access if they keep winning.

sounds like the brackets are too large

[Houndawg]

Get off your high Saluki Horse.

Southern Ill won 4 conference games this season, 3 over the bottom of the MVFC: 0-8 conf, 0-11 overall Western Ill, 1-7, 1-10 Indiana St.; and 1-7, 2-9 Murray St. Your signature conference win was over 3-5 Conf, 4-7 overall Missouri St.

Do the math, the combined total overall wins for the 4 teams you beat in the MVFC was 7.

mmmmmm...the butthurt is strong in this one, Obi-wan....and Austin Peay is 9-2 and was in considration for a seed ......and I bet you sang a different tune back when the CAA was getting 5/6 teams in the playoffs and one of them was always UNH, but you seem to have missed my point while at the same time making it: in any other conference except the Big Sky we'd be an AQ regular. xcoffeex

[penguinpower]

Just depends on how you look at it. If it stays this way, I bet, at the very least, we will have the best team from each conf in the tournament. I'm pretty sure this is why most teams have a full slate of conf games each year.

And determining the champ has little to do with how much money any team spends. If it did, then why even play. Just find out who spent the most and crown them. I know, that is ridiculous. But so is establishing money as a determining factor.

I didn't explain this well, so you misunderstand, my fault. I'm not saying that the more you spend, the better your team. What I'm saying is that programs that invest heavily into football, who are actually better than another team from a different conference should get selected for playoffs. Here's a d example: Drake spends $1,043,780 on football and takes in $246,158 in revenue. Western Carolina on the other hand spent $3,135,056 and took in the exact same amount. Western Carolina is a 7-4 team. If WCU played Drake 100 times in a row they would win 100 times. Why fill that spot with Drake and not WCU? WCU commits a lot more resources to football than Drake. I don't agree with participation trophies.. I also agree that if you're not giving out an equal number of scholarships, you should be disqualified.

[penguinpower]

Is the 14th best at-large really a better choice than the PFL champ?

By your logic, the Horizon League will never get a bid to the NCAA Basketball Tournament, since the champ is never one of the 68 best teams.

And once you are at the 12-14th at-large, it is a crap shoot. I believe that UC-Davis should have been in, and far more deserving that Youngstown State.

Since you don't think they should be in the playoffs, the next logical step is to exclude wins over teams from that conference. YSU's win over Valpo no longer counts. YSU only won 6 "Real" games so is now out

UC-Davis has 7 Full scholarship FCS wins, so clearly more deserving of an at-large bid than YSU

Yes the 14th best team is better. If you eliminate Drake for example, you could replaced one of them with UC Davis and have a more competitive tournament bracket

[AggieManiac704]

ahhhh i love the salt in AGS this time of year......just gotta bask in it

[Chalupa Batman]

How about the other side of this question?

Teams that are in, but should not be:
Drake
Duquense
North Carolina Central
and maybe even Lafayette

Richmond

[caribbeanhen]

I didn't explain this well, so you misunderstand, my fault. I'm not saying that the more you spend, the better your team. What I'm saying is that programs that invest heavily into football, who are actually better than another team from a different conference should get selected for playoffs. Here's a d example: Drake spends $1,043,780 on football and takes in $246,158 in revenue. Western Carolina on the other hand spent $3,135,056 and took in the exact same amount. Western Carolina is a 7-4 team. If WCU played Drake 100 times in a row they would win 100 times. Why fill that spot with Drake and not WCU? WCU commits a lot more resources to football than Drake. I don't agree with participation trophies.. I also agree that if you're not giving out an equal number of scholarships, you should be disqualified.

But you want to give Western Carolina one? Because they spent more money on the football program?

[caribbeanhen]

ahhhh i love the salt in AGS this time of year......just gotta bask in it

like an epsom bath

[DSUrocks07]

RichmondBut but but, they would be "more competitive". [emoji23]

Once again, what is the point of the playoffs? Everyone wants different things now. If we get rid of the autobids, then we might as well should go to a bowl type framework where the champion of one plays the champion of another.

The celebration bowl gets crapped on all the time around here for it, and I personally would hate to see DSU in that game for a variety of reasons (and I'm sure the bowl sponsors would as well), but if all of these "weaker teams" are wastes of a playoff spot then what other option is there?

But it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation now.

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

[MR. CHICKEN]

I didn't explain this well, so you misunderstand, my fault. I'm not saying that the more you spend, the better your team. What I'm saying is that programs that invest heavily into football, who are actually better than another team from a different conference should get selected for playoffs. Here's a d example: Drake spends $1,043,780 on football and takes in $246,158 in revenue. Western Carolina on the other hand spent $3,135,056 and took in the exact same amount. Western Carolina is a 7-4 team. If WCU played Drake 100 times in a row they would win 100 times. Why fill that spot with Drake and not WCU? WCU commits a lot more resources to football than Drake. I don't agree with participation trophies.. I also agree that if you're not giving out an equal number of scholarships, you should be disqualified.


....THEY COODN'T BEAT......VMI FO' GOD's SAKE......BRAWK!

[MR. CHICKEN]

Delaware

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

YOUNGSTOWN!


WHO'D YA'D REPLACE DUH HENS WIT.......DUH SICKAMORES......'CAUSE DEYLOST BAH UH FEW CLOSE SCORES..........LIKE DUH POSTER WHOM WANTS HOLY COW INCLUDED....'CAUSE DEY JES' MISSED BAH FG'S?????....AWK?

[ElCid]

I didn't explain this well, so you misunderstand, my fault. I'm not saying that the more you spend, the better your team. What I'm saying is that programs that invest heavily into football, who are actually better than another team from a different conference should get selected for playoffs. Here's a d example: Drake spends $1,043,780 on football and takes in $246,158 in revenue. Western Carolina on the other hand spent $3,135,056 and took in the exact same amount. Western Carolina is a 7-4 team. If WCU played Drake 100 times in a row they would win 100 times. Why fill that spot with Drake and not WCU? WCU commits a lot more resources to football than Drake. I don't agree with participation trophies.. I also agree that if you're not giving out an equal number of scholarships, you should be disqualified.

Bottom line is that having the autobids is the ONE "objective" factor we have. Change to anything else and you make the entire process subjective. Once it gets entirely subjective, you reduce everything to opinion, campaigning, and politicking. It would be like the current butt hurt we see, only on steroids. Not the best way to do it.

Besides, this is all academic. The vast majority of FCS institutions would never agree.

[UNHWildcat18]

The 6th place MVFC team gave the National Champions their toughest game of the year, lost to USD on a blown call on the tying TD, has an FBS win, and thumped Austin Peay soundly early in the season - they wouldn't finish sixth in your league.

They also only managed to get by SEMO by a point and all I heard from the rest is loss loss. We can use transitive property math all you want. Again you still couldn't beat a single team in your conference ahead of you. Kinda hard to justify a 6th team who lost to teams 1,2,3,5(YSU) all I am saying.

[POD Knows]

If the Pioneer teams could would they drop down to D3 football if the Dayton rule didn't exist? I'm in favor of auto-bids because as others have said, I think every team should be able to control their own destiny. The problem with removing it is you might not allow those good San Diego teams who can win games in the playoffs in if they don't have an outbid.
If I remember correctly I think San Diego was in the top 25 during that time. I could be wrong. They might have even been eligible for an at large without the autobid.

[atthewbon]

They also only managed to get by SEMO by a point and all I heard from the rest is loss loss. We can use transitive property math all you want. Again you still couldn't beat a single team in your conference ahead of you. Kinda hard to justify a 6th team who lost to teams 1,2,3,5(YSU) all I am saying.

The same SEMO who beat another bubble team in EIU and another team in the field in Nicholls... It's not as hard to justify a 6th place team when they comfortably beat the top team in another conference who was in the conversation for a seed (Austin Peay), and an FBS team.

[Houndawg]

They also only managed to get by SEMO by a point and all I heard from the rest is loss loss. We can use transitive property math all you want. Again you still couldn't beat a single team in your conference ahead of you. Kinda hard to justify a 6th team who lost to teams 1,2,3,5(YSU) all I am saying.

I'm saying it matters if that sixth place team is one of the 14 best at-large eligible teams and recently the MVFC has been deep - thats why strength of schedule matters. Look at who beat us and look at who beat you; everybody that beat us, so far, will be a Top 10 team in the final poll, maybe top 15 with YSU, 2 of them will finish in the Top 5. Who you play matters and how you play them matters.

[Paladin1aa]

I'm saying it matters if that sixth place team is one of the 14 best at-large eligible teams and recently the MVFC has been deep - thats why strength of schedule matters. Look at who beat us and look at who beat you; everybody that beat us, so far, will be a Top 10 team in the final poll, maybe top 15 with YSU, 2 of them will finish in the Top 5. Who you play matters and how you play them matters.

Exactly. This has been our complaint for years. You are penalizing people for playing tough schedules who otherwise is still one of the toughest teams deserving of the playoffs. Strength of schedule matters. I’ve said before and will repeat - YSU struggles at times in the MVFC and yet we beat more than 90% of FCS. The league is a grind. FCS ? Not so much.

[KPSUL]

This just shows how deep the MVFC is. Comparing what SIU was able to do in their out of conference games and then with how they struggled in conference is telling.

I do think the MVFC Conference is deep that is nothing new. What's new is that you now have at least 3 teams that are no where near as strong as the top 7 or 8, and a 4th, Mo St., that is only incrementally better. Going to 12 teams contributed, but Western and Indiana State have just dropped precipitously the last couple seasons. You probably could have made a case for 5 teams in the playoffs from the MVFC many of the past 10 years when they actually got 3 maybe 4 in. Back then the conference was truly deep - top to bottom, consequently, the 4 or 5th place valley teams were more likely 6-5, not 7-4. To be fair, the same could be said about CAA, Big Sky and the SoCon where each conference has proportionally about the same number of non- competitive teams at the bottom that help build win-loss records of the top half.

Concerning The team identified in the original message as "The 6th Best Team in the MVFC" I was dubious about the claim that their 2023 performance was evidence that they would be higher than 6th place in the CAA. When I actually researched their record, I was surprised to see that their 4-4 conference record was absolutely as unimpressive as could have been possible - beating only the bottom 4 teams. Knowing what I know now, I'm embarrassed to say I had Southern Ill 15th in my last AGS poll - I assumed that they must have won one or two games against opponents in the top 2/3 of the conference standings.

[Chalupa Batman]

But but but, they would be "more competitive". [emoji23]

Once again, what is the point of the playoffs? Everyone wants different things now. If we get rid of the autobids, then we might as well should go to a bowl type framework where the champion of one plays the champion of another.

The celebration bowl gets crapped on all the time around here for it, and I personally would hate to see DSU in that game for a variety of reasons (and I'm sure the bowl sponsors would as well), but if all of these "weaker teams" are wastes of a playoff spot then what other option is there?

But it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation now.

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I wasn't talking at all about if they would be competitive or not, it was about which teams deserve to be in. There resume is pretty bad, and horrible for a team from the CAA.

[KPSUL]

[QUOTE=Houndawg;3161324]mmmmmm...the butthurt is strong in this one, Obi-wan....and Austin Peay is 9-2 and was in considration for a seed ......and I bet you sang a different tune back when the CAA was getting 5/6 teams in the playoffs and one of them was always UNH, but you seem to have missed my point while at the same time making it: in any other conference except the Big Sky we'd be an AQ regular. xcoffeex[/QUOs!TE]

So what's your argument Here? All I see is a bunch worn out, "oh yeah!" and "what aboutisms". Explain to us how beating 0-11 Western Ill, 1-10 Indiana St, 2-9 Murray State, and 4-7 Mo. St. and losing to every team you played in the top 2/3rds of your conference proves anything of a positive nature about a team.

[KPSUL]

I wasn't talking at all about if they would be competitive or not, it was about which teams deserve to be in. There resume is pretty bad, and horrible for a team from the CAA.

No question that Richmond has a weaker 8-3 record than Delaware, but the right 4 teams from the CAA made it in. Richmond played much better the last 6 games of the season than they did in the first 5. I was very slow to rank them in the Top 25 as well. Clearly their worst loss was to Morgan State at the beginning of the season, but as it turned out it was not quite as bad as it seemed at the time. Morgan was not a terrible team this season and their defense could be particularly stout. No question Richmond spun their wheels frequently in the first half of the season, but they finished with 6 wins and finishing strong has always been a factor in playoff selection.

[DSUrocks07]

I wasn't talking at all about if they would be competitive or not, it was about which teams deserve to be in. There resume is pretty bad, and horrible for a team from the CAA.Oh I'm agreeing with you, their resume is awful. But my point is that people believe that they are "more deserving" because they are in a "major" conference.

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[Catbooster]

This is equivalent to a participation trophy in my book. You never know with a team like UNI, for example, they could go on a run now you won't see it
Giving the 7th place MVFC (or any other conference) team a berth in the playoffs is every bit as much of a participation trophy (more IMO) as is giving one to a conference champion. They've had their chance to prove they are a contender for the national championship multiple times and failed. They couldn't even beat out over half of teams in their conference to get that championship, let alone contend for the National Championship.

One of the things people say they like about the payoffs is that you get the chance to prove it on the field. The team in the middle of a conference's standings has had their chances to prove it on the field and failed. They couldn't even beat enough teams to come in the top half of their conference. The champion of a weaker conference hasn't necessarily had that chance, despite all of us being convinced (our opinions) they won't be able to beat the top teams. Eliminating the auto-berths is a step away from proving it on the field and toward awarding the NC based on a poll/committee's opinion.

A common complaint is that the Ivies and others don't participate in the playoffs. If they did, some of the same people would be here complaining that they don't deserve their auto-berth.

If those teams didn't get an auto-berth, we'd be back to the days when we had a 16 team field and the teams you're complaining about not getting in wouldn't be getting in anyway. Thanks to the NCAA rules, we've got 14 at-larges now so that there are at least as many at-larges as there are auto-berths. I look at it more as if we still have about 16 or so legitimate teams in the playoffs (and that's enough to make sure the best team is in the field) and the rest are just teams lucky enough to get in and fill the brackets. The 7th place (or whatever arbitrary number you want to use beyond say 3rd?) team in a conference does not "deserve" to be in a tournament for the national championship any more than the team that won their conference.

It's good that teams can stumble a time or two and aren't out of the running for the playoffs, but it's just as ridiculous (more so IMO) to take a team that is barely in the top half of the conference as it is to take a weak team with a gaudy W/L record. We've gone from a 16 team field to 20 to 24 teams in the field. We could go to a 32 team playoff and we'd still get these debates.

Debating over which at-larges should have been included at the expense of other at-larges is a good discussion IMO. But not at the expense of conference champions.

[ElCid]

Giving the 7th place MVFC (or any other conference) team a berth in the playoffs is every bit as much of a participation trophy (more IMO) as is giving one to a conference champion. They've had their chance to prove they are a contender for the national championship multiple times and failed. They couldn't even beat out over half of teams in their conference to get that championship, let alone contend for the National Championship.

One of the things people say they like about the payoffs is that you get the chance to prove it on the field. The team in the middle of a conference's standings has had their chances to prove it on the field and failed. They couldn't even beat enough teams to come in the top half of their conference. The champion of a weaker conference hasn't necessarily had that chance, despite all of us being convinced (our opinions) they won't be able to beat the top teams. Eliminating the auto-berths is a step away from proving it on the field and toward awarding the NC based on a poll/committee's opinion.

A common complaint is that the Ivies and others don't participate in the playoffs. If they did, some of the same people would be here complaining that they don't deserve their auto-berth.

If those teams didn't get an auto-berth, we'd be back to the days when we had a 16 team field and the teams you're complaining about not getting in wouldn't be getting in anyway. Thanks to the NCAA rules, we've got 14 at-larges now so that there are at least as many at-larges as there are auto-berths. I look at it more as if we still have about 16 or so legitimate teams in the playoffs (and that's enough to make sure the best team is in the field) and the rest are just teams lucky enough to get in and fill the brackets. The 7th place (or whatever arbitrary number you want to use beyond say 3rd?) team in a conference does not "deserve" to be in a tournament for the national championship any more than the team that won their conference.

It's good that teams can stumble a time or two and aren't out of the running for the playoffs, but it's just as ridiculous (more so IMO) to take a team that is barely in the top half of the conference as it is to take a weak team with a gaudy W/L record. We've gone from a 16 team field to 20 to 24 teams in the field. We could go to a 32 team playoff and we'd still get these debates.

Debating over which at-larges should have been included at the expense of other at-larges is a good discussion IMO. But not at the expense of conference champions.

Exactly. I'm convinced they want the entire selection to be subjective. Like 6th place in X conf vs 4th place in Y conf. It's all narrative. People like that hate having a set of rules when those rules don't favor them. Or they want to change the rules. Having conf champ in doesn't favor them. Especially for those in a conf who are perennial "also rans."

[wapiti]

Debating over which at-larges should have been included at the expense of other at-larges is a good discussion IMO. But not at the expense of conference champions.

This is why North Carolina Central should not be in the playoffs. They did not win the championship from the weak MEAC.

UC Davis would beat NCCU easily and should have been in over them.

[crusader11]

This is why North Carolina Central should not be in the playoffs. They did not win the championship from the weak MEAC.

UC Davis would beat NCCU easily and should have been in over them.

There are a handful of teams that were much better choices than NC Central.

Consider this:

NC Central beat ONE TEAM with a winning record this season -- Elon.

One of their wins came against Winston Salem State

Their Massey ranking (yes, I know it's imperfect, but using it for the purposes of this exercise) is 52. This is sandwiched in between 4-7 SEMO and 5-6 Towson.

Their SOS is 96.

You give NC Central a blind resume and compare it with UC Davis or Holy Cross or Western Carolina and they aren't picked every single time.

[SteelSD]

mmmmmm...the butthurt is strong in this one, Obi-wan....and Austin Peay is 9-2 and was in considration for a seed ......and I bet you sang a different tune back when the CAA was getting 5/6 teams in the playoffs and one of them was always UNH, but you seem to have missed my point while at the same time making it: in any other conference except the Big Sky we'd be an AQ regular. xcoffeex

So what's your argument Here? All I see is a bunch worn out, "oh yeah!" and "what aboutisms". Explain to us how beating 0-11 Western Ill, 1-10 Indiana St, 2-9 Murray State, and 4-7 Mo. St. and losing to every team you played in the top 2/3rds of your conference proves anything of a positive nature about a team.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but here is a list of 3 of YSU's losses:

the Ohio State
SDSU
USD

Just curious how many teams in the field win any of those 3? Does Richmond? So YSU's "bad" loss was at UNI. I will put that up against Richmond's losses that you are trying to somehow justify.

The simple fact is a number of teams in the field have ugly warts just like a few that just missed out. Frankly it's what shade of lipstick do you prefer on your pig...

[SDFS]

General thoughts on several comments:

- I am fine with the AQ's. Just do a better job of selecting at large schools. At large bids are for the next best 14 teams. I am not sure we can say that - today.

- The large number of MVFC teams could be a one-year thing because WIU is leaving the conference, and those wins/losses are going away. So, the 4th/5th/6th Valley teams can't as easily "CAA" their way into the playoffs.

- The MVFC program that has owned the FCS for the past decade lost three conference games. So, thinking that as many as 4 teams from the conference don't have a chance at a NC is kind of silly. Again, last year only 3 teams made it into the playoffs and two of them were in the championship game.

- The playoff committee absolutely limited the impact of two conferences (Big Sky/MVFC) on the playoffs by putting 5 of the better teams in same the bracket. Based on Massey ratings you have 3, 4, 5, 10, 12 in one 6 team bracket. The best team in the CAA would be the 4th best team in that bracket and coin flip favored against teams 4 and 5.

- The leadup to a potential 2nd round game of YSU vs Villanova will be fun to watch.

- Really wish they would have put SIU in the Richmond/Albany grouping to watch the leadup on that also. Such a missed opportunity.

[MSUBobcat]

Does anyone know who the last team in was for the last several years? I would be interested in looking at how the last team fared, since presumably they were only marginally better than the first team left out, which was replaced by the PFL auto-berth. The people arguing that the 14th MVFC team "just needs a chance and maybe they'll get hot" don't have much of a leg to stand on from what I'm seeing from the unseeded teams, let alone the last in/just missed. Much has been made of YSU's unseeded run in 2016, as it should be. Digging a bit deeper, using the flawless AGS poll as a guide (https://thefcswedge.com/ags-poll/ags-poll-top-25-week-12-results/), YSU went into Selection Sunday as the 9th team, so they just missed being a seed and were nowhere near a bubble team. Since the field expanded, the results of unseeded teams after the first round are as follows:

2022 - unseeded teams went 0-8
2021 - SDSU made the semis (AGS had them at 11 for Selection Sunday (https://thefcswedge.com/ags-poll/ags-poll-week-12-top-25-results-3/))
2019 - 3 upsets in Round 2, but none advanced out of the QF
2018 - unseeded teams went 0-8 again
2017 - 3 upsets in Round 2, but none advanced out of the QF
2016 - YSU made the finals (as mentioned, they were 9th)
2015 - 3 upsets in Round 2, 2 were paired against each other in QF so one had to win by default, and got thumped 62-10 in the semis (don't know SHSU's AGS rank, T-2nd in Southland)
2014 - 1 upset in Round 2, who won in QF, got thumped 35-3 in the semis (don't know SHSU's AGS rank, but were T-1st in Southland)
2013 - 3 upsets in Round 2, 1 won in QF, got thumped 52-14 in semis (don't know UNH's AGS rank, but 3rd in CAA)

Only 5 unseeded teams made the semis and only 2 didn't get dumptrucked by over 30pts in those semis. Those teams were ranked 9th and 11th and therefore the PFL auto had no effect on them.

It appears to me, and I'd like to confirm if someone can provide the last-4-in for those years, that since the field expanded, all it did was add MORE participation trophies with the hope that your last-4-in team maybe gets a favorable pairing only to get sent home the next weekend. Don't get me wrong - a team playing an extra game, maybe even 2 is great for the program, but why should the 11th CAA team/17th BSC/29th MVFC team (it's a DEEP conference......) deserve that chance any more than the PFL champ?

[ysubigred]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but here is a list of 3 of YSU's losses:

the Ohio State
SDSU
USD

Just curious how many teams in the field win any of those 3? Does Richmond? So YSU's "bad" loss was at UNI. I will put that up against Richmond's losses that you are trying to somehow justify.

The simple fact is a number of teams in the field have ugly warts just like a few that just missed out. Frankly it's what shade of lipstick do you prefer on your pig...Yup.. just think YSU lost to both #1 teams in Div 1 lol.. crazy saying UNI is a bad loss in their house..



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[dbackjon]

Yup.. just think YSU lost to both #1 teams in Div 1 lol.. crazy saying UNI is a bad loss in their house..



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So you want a participation trophy for losing badly to good teams? Bottom line, you didn't win them!

You lost by 34 to the #1 seed. NAU beat the #2 seed by 17 Guess NAU should have been picked instead of YSU. We had some "Good Losses as well" - FBS top 20 team Arizona, Seeded team Montana State. Playoff team Sac State. Where is our bid!!! We got robbed!

Any of the last four in/last four out could have flipped places, and we would have the same arguments. Want a guaranteed spot in the playoffs? Win your conference!

[ysubigred]

So you want a participation trophy for losing badly to good teams? Bottom line, you didn't win them!

You lost by 34 to the #1 seed. NAU beat the #2 seed by 17 Guess NAU should have been picked instead of YSU. We had some "Good Losses as well" - FBS top 20 team Arizona, Seeded team Montana State. Playoff team Sac State. Where is our bid!!! We got robbed!

Any of the last four in/last four out could have flipped places, and we would have the same arguments. Want a guaranteed spot in the playoffs? Win your conference!So how many rings has NAU WON or even made it to the finals? Yea.. I thought so. It's more difficult to win the MVFC than a Nation Championship.. LOL..



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[atthewbon]

Does anyone know who the last team in was for the last several years? I would be interested in looking at how the last team fared, since presumably they were only marginally better than the first team left out, which was replaced by the PFL auto-berth. The people arguing that the 14th MVFC team "just needs a chance and maybe they'll get hot" don't have much of a leg to stand on from what I'm seeing from the unseeded teams, let alone the last in/just missed. Much has been made of YSU's unseeded run in 2016, as it should be. Digging a bit deeper, using the flawless AGS poll as a guide (https://thefcswedge.com/ags-poll/ags-poll-top-25-week-12-results/), YSU went into Selection Sunday as the 9th team, so they just missed being a seed and were nowhere near a bubble team. Since the field expanded, the results of unseeded teams after the first round are as follows:

2022 - unseeded teams went 0-8
2021 - SDSU made the semis (AGS had them at 11 for Selection Sunday (https://thefcswedge.com/ags-poll/ags-poll-week-12-top-25-results-3/))
2019 - 3 upsets in Round 2, but none advanced out of the QF
2018 - unseeded teams went 0-8 again
2017 - 3 upsets in Round 2, but none advanced out of the QF
2016 - YSU made the finals (as mentioned, they were 9th)
2015 - 3 upsets in Round 2, 2 were paired against each other in QF so one had to win by default, and got thumped 62-10 in the semis (don't know SHSU's AGS rank, T-2nd in Southland)
2014 - 1 upset in Round 2, who won in QF, got thumped 35-3 in the semis (don't know SHSU's AGS rank, but were T-1st in Southland)
2013 - 3 upsets in Round 2, 1 won in QF, got thumped 52-14 in semis (don't know UNH's AGS rank, but 3rd in CAA)

Only 5 unseeded teams made the semis and only 2 didn't get dumptrucked by over 30pts in those semis. Those teams were ranked 9th and 11th and therefore the PFL auto had no effect on them.

It appears to me, and I'd like to confirm if someone can provide the last-4-in for those years, that since the field expanded, all it did was add MORE participation trophies with the hope that your last-4-in team maybe gets a favorable pairing only to get sent home the next weekend. Don't get me wrong - a team playing an extra game, maybe even 2 is great for the program, but why should the 11th CAA team/17th BSC/29th MVFC team (it's a DEEP conference......) deserve that chance any more than the PFL champ?

The unseeded teams that actually do win past the first round, tend to be MVFC teams. Since the playoffs expanded to 24 teams, 35% of wins that have come from unseeded teams past the second round have been from the MVFC. In the last five years (four fall seasons) it's 80%. FWIW I'm opposed to removing autobids and would welcome the MEAC/SWAC and IVY to accept their autobids as well. However, I don't think that a 7-4 SIU is less deserving than the second place UAC or Big South/OVC team. After the autobids the at-larges should go to the best teams and teams should not be excluded from that if they are sixth in the best conference in favor of the second team in a far worse conference .

[dbackjon]

So how many rings has NAU WON or even made it to the finals? Yea.. I thought so. It's more difficult to win the MVFC than a Nation Championship.. LOL..



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Congrats on your success in the 90's. I am sure that means a lot to recruits.

[ysubigred]

Congrats on your success in the 90's. I am sure that means a lot to recruits.Congratulations on ur nothing success ever.. 2016 wasn't the 90's.. how in the hell are the lumberingjacks recruiting with ur thought of old success [emoji15]

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[The Yo Show]

This thread has really taken a turn. I am just commenting my opinion here, but I think that all conferences do deserve an autobid. The at large selections are always going to be subjective.

I will add though, that I would like to see the FCS standardize a total scholarship count personally. Feel free to disagree with this, but my take is that like the FBS all fcs schools should have to have some uniformity on scholarship count. I'd say make it so that every school is giving the equivalent of 63 full scholarships (I put equivalent so schools could still split those as partials). Not much different than now except instead of it being the max it would be the requirement.

[SteelSD]

So you want a participation trophy for losing badly to good teams? Bottom line, you didn't win them!

You lost by 34 to the #1 seed. NAU beat the #2 seed by 17 Guess NAU should have been picked instead of YSU. We had some "Good Losses as well" - FBS top 20 team Arizona, Seeded team Montana State. Playoff team Sac State. Where is our bid!!! We got robbed!

Any of the last four in/last four out could have flipped places, and we would have the same arguments. Want a guaranteed spot in the playoffs? Win your conference!
Hey, I’m with you. But then I like blue and yellow shades on my pig.

[Go...gate]

You misunderstand. It's not that every conference shouldn't get an AQ, it's that non-scholarship teams shouldn't be in Division 1.

You might want to mention that to non-scholarship (at the time) Colgate, a Quarterfinalist in 1982 and finalist in 2003.

I believe that Holy Cross warranted serious consideration for the playoffs.

[MSUBobcat]

The unseeded teams that actually do win past the first round, tend to be MVFC teams. Since the playoffs expanded to 24 teams, 35% of wins that have come from unseeded teams past the second round have been from the MVFC. In the last five years (four fall seasons) it's 80%. FWIW I'm opposed to removing autobids and would welcome the MEAC/SWAC and IVY to accept their autobids as well. However, I don't think that a 7-4 SIU is less deserving than the second place UAC or Big South/OVC team. After the autobids the at-larges should go to the best teams and teams should not be excluded from that if they are sixth in the best conference in favor of the second team in a far worse conference .

My comment had nothing to do with the MVFC specifically. I mentioned the 14th MVFC team (there's only 12 teams) as hyperbole. Also, I think your stats are wins past the FIRST ROUND. Only SDSU has a win past the second round (2021) and they were 11th in AGS. In 2019, Ill State got a win in Round 2, but they were 13th in the final AGS poll and were actually in line for a seed before laying an egg @ YSU. That same year, APSU (14th) and UNI (6th in final AGS poll but unseeded in the field, one of our "bad misses" in seed predictions) both won Round 2 games. None of these teams were "bubble teams".

What I am looking for is how has the last team to get in done. I would postulate that more often than not, the last team in gets beat in the first round, which makes me believe that the first team OUT also wouldn't go far. Therefore, the PFL team getting in over a bubble team isn't much different. Both will be cannon fodder for someone.

[wapiti]

This thread has really taken a turn. I am just commenting my opinion here, but I think that all conferences do deserve an autobid. The at large selections are always going to be subjective.

I will add though, that I would like to see the FCS standardize a total scholarship count personally. Feel free to disagree with this, but my take is that like the FBS all fcs schools should have to have some uniformity on scholarship count. I'd say make it so that every school is giving the equivalent of 63 full scholarships (I put equivalent so schools could still split those as partials). Not much different than now except instead of it being the max it would be the requirement.

Yes, all conferences should get an auto. But the Pioneer should not be FCS. I would argue SWAC and MEAC should not have an at-large since they never send their champ and they are nearly as weak as the Pioneer anyways.

[Paladin1aa]

Yes, all conferences should get an auto. But the Pioneer should not be FCS. I would argue SWAC and MEAC should not have an at-large since they never send their champ and they are nearly as weak as the Pioneer anyways.

100% agree

[MSUBobcat]

Yes, all conferences should get an auto. But the Pioneer should not be FCS. I would argue SWAC and MEAC should not have an at-large since they never send their champ and they are nearly as weak as the Pioneer anyways.

I believe the NCAA by-laws would have to be changed to allow the PFL to not be FCS. DII and DIII can play DI participate in DI in one sport, other than football or basketball. (https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2013/11/20/divisional-differences-and-the-history-of-multidivision-classification.aspx#:~:text=An%20institution%20in% 20Division%20II,membership%20rests%20in%20another% 20division.) Since being DI for basketball is important for many of these schools (and BB tournament revenue far outstrips most FCS FB revenue), they will not willingly drop down. An exception would have to be made for these teams to play DI for basketball, but DIII for football (and other sports). Or the rule that any conference with 6 teams receives an autobid would have to be changed to say, "any conference with 6 members, except the PFL" (obviously it would be stated more PC, like "any conference with 6 members offering a minimum of "x" scholarships").

I don't see the NCAA carving out rules so that some other patsy makes the 24 team field over the PFL representative. Might as well get over it.

[KPSUL]

Yes, all conferences should get an auto. But the Pioneer should not be FCS. I would argue SWAC and MEAC should not have an at-large since they never send their champ and they are nearly as weak as the Pioneer anyways.

While I think the SWAC and MEAC teams are generally more competitive now, I agree that they should not be in the FCS playoff at all. The have their own playoff system in place with the SWAC Championship and the Celebration Bowl. With only 6 teams now, a MEAC conference championship game is really not needed or practical - the regular season conference championship is sufficient to select the Celebration Bowl participant since all teams play one another. However, if they wanted to have one the weekend is available. There HBCU Division 1 Championship tournament runs concurrently with the FCS playoffs. They garner every bit as much attention and recognition from their post season play as the teams in the FCS playoff do, probably more. I appreciate and respect what they are doing and always watch and enjoy the Celebration Bowl and support HBCUs, but a conference should either fully be in, or out, of the FCS playoffs.

[atthewbon]

My comment had nothing to do with the MVFC specifically. I mentioned the 14th MVFC team (there's only 12 teams) as hyperbole. Also, I think your stats are wins past the FIRST ROUND. Only SDSU has a win past the second round (2021) and they were 11th in AGS. In 2019, Ill State got a win in Round 2, but they were 13th in the final AGS poll and were actually in line for a seed before laying an egg @ YSU. That same year, APSU (14th) and UNI (6th in final AGS poll but unseeded in the field, one of our "bad misses" in seed predictions) both won Round 2 games. None of these teams were "bubble teams".

What I am looking for is how has the last team to get in done. I would postulate that more often than not, the last team in gets beat in the first round, which makes me believe that the first team OUT also wouldn't go far. Therefore, the PFL team getting in over a bubble team isn't much different. Both will be cannon fodder for someone.

You’re right I meant past the first round. I can’t find any way to easily find the last 4 in graphics they make every year. But in terms of teams that won games past the first round who may have been “bubble teams” 2017 UNH who was ranked 21st in the stats poll, 2016 Wofford was 19th, 2013 Jacksonville St 20th. You could make an argument for 2015 Northern Iowa, while ranked 15th, they were 7-4.

But you’re right in that the majority of unseeded teams that go on runs beyond the second round are teams that are comfortably in and near the seeds. This supports my argument I’ve made in other threads that while home field is an advantage, the reason seeds do better is mainly because they are better teams, as when they do get upset it tends to be by teams that were almost seeded.

However my point still stands that I’d rather that last team in be the sixth best team from the best conference than the second best from a much inferior conference because even if they don’t win, they’d be more competitive. Obviously it depends on the year and what the bubble looks like but I’m not opposed to the sixth best team from a conference making it. I’m not in favor of removing auto bids.


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[MSUBobcat]

You’re right I meant past the first round. I can’t find any way to easily find the last 4 in graphics they make every year. But in terms of teams that won games past the first round who may have been “bubble teams” 2017 UNH who was ranked 21st in the stats poll, 2016 Wofford was 19th, 2013 Jacksonville St 20th. You could make an argument for 2015 Northern Iowa, while ranked 15th, they were 7-4.

But you’re right in that the majority of unseeded teams that go on runs beyond the second round are teams that are comfortably in and near the seeds. This supports my argument I’ve made in other threads that while home field is an advantage, the reason seeds do better is mainly because they are better teams, as when they do get upset it tends to be by teams that were almost seeded.

However my point still stands that I’d rather that last team in be the sixth best team from the best conference than the second best from a much inferior conference because even if they don’t win, they’d be more competitive. Obviously it depends on the year and what the bubble looks like but I’m not opposed to the sixth best team from a conference making it. I’m not in favor of removing auto bids.


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2017 UNH was 23rd in AGS, so that upset over the 4 seed is very unexpected, to be sure. AGS had Wofford at 16 in the final poll so beating a conference rival, the Citadel, wasn't all that shocking (Wofford lost by 3 in OT earlier in the year and we all know about beating a team twice in a year). Jax State in 2013 was another surprising upset. None of those made it out of the QF tho, so it supports my position that a potential champion missed out because of the PFL auto-bid. So far, a bubble team has yet to even make the semis.

I'm in 100% agreement about teams with bad road records being more because they play teams that are ranked higher, especially since my team was one specifically called out by the cherry picked statistic, even though all but one came to either the future champ or runner up. Literally no team went on the to the team that beat MSU and won.

My argument isn't, and hasn't been, about whether the 6th best team from a power conference would do better than the 2nd team from an inferior conference. There will always be arguments over the bubble every year, and taking away the PFL representative won't change that. My point is letting that team in over the PFL champ won't change hardly any results. The PFL replacement may win a 1st round game if paired favorably, especially if the school can submit a good bid, and may even rarely beat a seed in Round 2, but will almost never win in the QF (no one has since the expansion). Let's move on from the "PFL champ doesn't deserve a bid" argument that we have every year. Just pissing into the wind.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Is the 14th best at-large really a better choice than the PFL champ?

By your logic, the Horizon League will never get a bid to the NCAA Basketball Tournament, since the champ is never one of the 68 best teams.

And once you are at the 12-14th at-large, it is a crap shoot. I believe that UC-Davis should have been in, and far more deserving that Youngstown State.

Since you don't think they should be in the playoffs, the next logical step is to exclude wins over teams from that conference. YSU's win over Valpo no longer counts. YSU only won 6 "Real" games so is now out

UC-Davis has 7 Full scholarship FCS wins, so clearly more deserving of an at-large bid than YSU

They wouldn't have scheduled them if the game wouldn't have counted. So you don't really have a point there.

UCD deeserved a bid for sure. Arguably over Sacramento .. same record and similar SO ranked about 20th - not to mention UCD just beat them by 10 last Saturday. But I think they both deserved a bid.

YSU also clearly deserved a bid at 7-4 against the #16 SOS, including a respectable showing at Ohio St. Richmond was 8-3 playing the #83 SOS. They beat an 0-10 Stony Brook by just 1 pt. That is their 8th win .. imagine if that game were played last week .. would that showing have convinced committee they are worthy ? I doubt it. They didn't play a single playoff team, including none of the top 3 from their own conference. That's because CAA is up to 15 teams and seems to take all comers. It is a watered down conference and shell of it's former self when they dominated in the 2000-10 decade. Losing to top 8 seed by 3 is a much better showing than beating aand 0-10 team .. hands down. It's not complicated. SOS and margins shoudl and does play a big part in rankings and selection committee. There is no other way to do it.


Just like 2021, MVFC deserved 6 bids this season. NC Central and Richmond for starters are your weakest links putting aside several auto bids. UCD is the team that got screwed the most. EIU was just 1 game better as a direct result of playing an SOS ranked 81st. If UCD plays that schedule, they would go 10-1.

We're already stuck with autoobids. Let's at least make every effort to get the Seeds and the at large bids right ... best remaining teams, not the best remaining records. Anyone can sort on record. SOS and margins .. it is better to lose to a #5 team by 3 than to beat a #105 by 1 ... not to mention lose to 5-6 and a 4-6 teams.

[atthewbon]

2017 UNH was 23rd in AGS, so that upset over the 4 seed is very unexpected, to be sure. AGS had Wofford at 16 in the final poll so beating a conference rival, the Citadel, wasn't all that shocking (Wofford lost by 3 in OT earlier in the year and we all know about beating a team twice in a year). Jax State in 2013 was another surprising upset. None of those made it out of the QF tho, so it supports my position that a potential champion missed out because of the PFL auto-bid. So far, a bubble team has yet to even make the semis.

I'm in 100% agreement about teams with bad road records being more because they play teams that are ranked higher, especially since my team was one specifically called out by the cherry picked statistic, even though all but one came to either the future champ or runner up. Literally no team went on the to the team that beat MSU and won.

My argument isn't, and hasn't been, about whether the 6th best team from a power conference would do better than the 2nd team from an inferior conference. There will always be arguments over the bubble every year, and taking away the PFL representative won't change that. My point is letting that team in over the PFL champ won't change hardly any results. The PFL replacement may win a 1st round game if paired favorably, especially if the school can submit a good bid, and may even rarely beat a seed in Round 2, but will almost never win in the QF (no one has since the expansion). Let's move on from the "PFL champ doesn't deserve a bid" argument that we have every year. Just pissing into the wind.

Sounds like we agree. BTW how do you find historical AGS poll results?


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[MR. CHICKEN]

Sounds like we agree. BTW how do you find historical AGS poll results?


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33196



TOP RIGHT HAND OF PAGE......THERE IS UH BLOCK......ENTITLED "ADVANCED SEARCH"....ENTER YER SUBJECT.....FOR EXAMPLE....... AGS POLL RESULTS-WEEK 7 2017​.....THEN CLICK THE MAGNIFYING GLASS.........IT WILL TAKE YOU TO THE PAGE/OR NEAR THE PAGE OF YOUR DESIRED RESULT.....BRAWK!!

[lucchesicourt]

My point has always been who you lost to and who you beat.
Last year Davis went 6-5 and lost 5 games to top 10 fcs teams and beat one FBS team. So they had the #1 SOS in the country , but still finished above UM in conference, and UM did not beat a better than .500 club. Davis I believe was 5th in League and Montana 6th with 7 win verse Davis record 6-5. And UM gets selected.
This year Davis finishes above Sac State in league with the same record as Sac. And Davis beat Sac State.
Davis had 2 losses without their top player. Who came back
3 games before the end of the season and all he did was score 10 tds in 3 games.

[Houndawg]

[QUOTE=Houndawg;3161324]mmmmmm...the butthurt is strong in this one, Obi-wan....and Austin Peay is 9-2 and was in considration for a seed ......and I bet you sang a different tune back when the CAA was getting 5/6 teams in the playoffs and one of them was always UNH, but you seem to have missed my point while at the same time making it: in any other conference except the Big Sky we'd be an AQ regular. xcoffeex[/QUOs!TE]

So what's your argument Here? All I see is a bunch worn out, "oh yeah!" and "what aboutisms". Explain to us how beating 0-11 Western Ill, 1-10 Indiana St, 2-9 Murray State, and 4-7 Mo. St. and losing to every team you played in the top 2/3rds of your conference proves anything of a positive nature about a team.

Well I guess I could slow down my typing , maybe that would help. My argument was that your sour grapes notwithstanding, the sixth place team from yhe MVFC was one of the top 14 non-AQs available and deserving of a place in the playoff field. My argument was proven correct in dramatic fashion on saturday. Good Day to you, sir, and better luck next season.

[Paladin1aa]

What has happened so far is -

the Southland Champ lost to the 6th rated MVFC team

the NEC Champ lost to the 5th rated team from the MVFC

The Pioneer League Champ lost to the 3rd rated team from the MVFC

and 2 MVFC teams still in that hold seeds.

There are some teams who didn’t deserve to be in but pretty sure there are a few who definitely are in who deserved to be here.

[Houndawg]

What has happened so far is -

the Southland Champ lost to the 6th rated MVFC team

the NEC Champ lost to the 5th rated team from the MVFC

The Pioneer League Champ lost to the 3rd rated team from the MVFC

and 2 MVFC teams still that hold seeds.

There are some teams who didn’t deserve to be in but pretty sure there are a few who definitely are in who deserved to be here.

I'm trying to think of who should have had UND's spot...

[Paladin1aa]

What has happened so far is -

the Southland Champ lost to the 6th rated MVFC team

the NEC Champ lost to the 5th rated team from the MVFC

The Pioneer League Champ lost to the 3rd rated team from the MVFC

and 2 MVFC teams still in that hold seeds.

There are some teams who didn’t deserve to be in but pretty sure there are a few who definitely are in who deserved to be here.


BTW, the lower rated MVFC teams didn’t just beat those league Champions, they curb stomped the dog sheet out of them. Blow out city !

[caribbeanhen]

What has happened so far is -

the Southland Champ lost to the 6th rated MVFC team

the NEC Champ lost to the 5th rated team from the MVFC

The Pioneer League Champ lost to the 3rd rated team from the MVFC

and 2 MVFC teams still in that hold seeds.

There are some teams who didn’t deserve to be in but pretty sure there are a few who definitely are in who deserved to be here.

Talk about being spoon feed cupcakes … Magnolia Bakery have a chair on the committee?

[FUBeAR]

Talk about being spoon feed cupcakes … Magnolia Bakery have a chair on the committee?Yeah ... FUBeAR thinks this convo is beat, but he did prick up, so to speak, at that 'power claim.'


the Southland Champ lost to the 6th rated MVFC team

the NEC Champ lost to the 5th rated team from the MVFC

The Pioneer League Champ lost to the 3rd rated team from the MVFC

Welp....Let's see how Mr. Massey assesses that flex...


AutoBid Conference
Rnk
Rat
Rnk
Pwr


MVFC (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/85697) - includes SIU, YSU, NDSU, and UND (winners over BOTTOM 3 Conferences and 1 Loser (UND))
1
6.34
1
39.45


Big Sky (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/10668) - includes SacState (WINNER over UND (MVFC))
2
6.21
2
37.08


United AC (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/557749) - includes Massey #9 APSU (Chattanooga @ APSU - SoCon WIN over #3 Conf)
3
5.94
3
32.72


Coastal (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/11246) - includes Delaware and Richmond (both WINNERS over Patriot & MEAC)
4
5.82
4
31.30


Southern (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/14064) - includes Mercer & Chattanooga (both WINNERS over OVC & UAC)
5
5.68
5
28.32


Patriot - includes Massey #31 Lafayette (Lafayette @ Delaware - CAA WIN over #6 Conf
6
5.56
6
25.79


OH Valley - includes Massey #41 Gardner-Webb (Gardner-Webb @ Mercer - SoCon WIN over #7 Conf)
7
5.50
7
24.39


Southland (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/14112) - includes Massey #38 Nicholls (@SIU)
8
5.27
8
23.36


Northeast (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/13046) - includes Massey #65 Duquesne (@YSU)
9
4.83
9
15.03


Pioneer (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/13408) - includes #94 Drake (@NDSU)
10
4.37
10
6.98



There have been and there, most likely, will be many days to crow loudly about MVFC superiority in FCS Football, but today...is not that day. Maybe next week.

Hope y'all enjoyed the Thanksgiving confectionary treats provided by the Playoff Selection Committee. Don't forget to tip your servers.

[apaladin]

You might want to mention that to non-scholarship (at the time) Colgate, a Quarterfinalist in 1982 and finalist in 2003.

I believe that Holy Cross warranted serious consideration for the playoffs.

Technically they did not give football scholarships but they gave scholarships just called them something else.

[Houndawg]

Talk about being spoon feed cupcakes … Magnolia Bakery have a chair on the committee?

They aren't really cupcakes, they only look like cupcakes when they play MVFC teams. xcoffeex

[Houndawg]

Yeah ... FUBeAR thinks this convo is beat, but he did prick up, so to speak, at that 'power claim.'



Welp....Let's see how Mr. Massey assesses that flex...


AutoBid Conference
Rnk
Rat
Rnk
Pwr


MVFC (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/85697) - includes SIU, YSU, NDSU, and UND (winners over BOTTOM 3 Conferences and 1 Loser (UND))
1
6.34
1
39.45


Big Sky (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/10668) - includes SacState (WINNER over UND (MVFC))
2
6.21
2
37.08


United AC (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/557749) - includes Massey #9 APSU (Chattanooga @ APSU - SoCon WIN over #3 Conf)
3
5.94
3
32.72


Coastal (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/11246) - includes Delaware and Richmond (both WINNERS over Patriot & MEAC)
4
5.82
4
31.30


Southern (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/14064) - includes Mercer & Chattanooga (both WINNERS over OVC & UAC)
5
5.68
5
28.32


Patriot - includes Massey #31 Lafayette (Lafayette @ Delaware - CAA WIN over #6 Conf
6
5.56
6
25.79


OH Valley - includes Massey #41 Gardner-Webb (Gardner-Webb @ Mercer - SoCon WIN over #7 Conf)
7
5.50
7
24.39


Southland (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/14112) - includes Massey #38 Nicholls (@SIU)
8
5.27
8
23.36


Northeast (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/13046) - includes Massey #65 Duquesne (@YSU)
9
4.83
9
15.03


Pioneer (https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/13408) - includes #94 Drake (@NDSU)
10
4.37
10
6.98



There have been and there, most likely, will be many days to crow loudly about MVFC superiority in FCS Football, but today...is not that day. Maybe next week.

Hope y'all enjoyed the Thanksgiving confectionary treats provided by the Playoff Selection Committee. Don't forget to tip your servers.

We enjoyed ours, and hope you enjoy your MVFC-free path to the semis:D

[caribbeanhen]

They aren't really cupcakes, they only look like cupcakes when they play MVFC teams. xcoffeex

Delaware emptied the Doo Cans 42-17 … lots a sugar