Harvard doesn't "give scholarships"?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This AP article doesn't say it, but let's get real: if you have those sort of academic index numbers, there is no longer any choice:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/harvard_financial_aid


Harvard University announced Monday a major expansion of financial aid that will reduce tuition bills by thousands of dollars — even for families earning six figures.

The university said it would replace all loans with grants, and spend up to $22 million more annually on aid, mostly targeting middle- and upper-middle class students. Families earning under $60,000 already pay nothing to attend the world's richest university, with an endowment of nearly $35 billion.

Now, however, parents earning between $60,000 and $120,000 will pay a percentage of their income, rising to 10 percent. Families with incomes between $120,000 and $180,000 will have to pay 10 percent of their incomes.

Harvard also said it would take home equity out of its wealth calculation in financial aid, which should provide a greater boost for students and parents. Overall, Harvard said a typical family earning $120,000 would pay about $12,000 next year, down from $19,000 under current award policies. For a typical family earning $180,000, the bill would drop to $18,000, from more than $30,000.

About half of Harvard students receive some form of aid, including students from about 100 families who earn more than $200,000.

This doesn't come as a total surprise. If you've got the grades and can throw the football 70 yards across your body, you can make it into Harvard - and now they're looking to pay more of the "$60K to $90K" kids as well. You wonder when they'll start to say "under six figures, it's free".

Harvard, as most people understand, is a unique case. The real interesting part comes for many private schools if the rest of the Ivy League eventually goes to something similar. If the Columbia's and Cornell's start applying this type of aid poilicy in earnest, you have to wonder how long the Patriot League (and maybe other private schools) can exist with "grants-in-aid" to compete.

Discuss.

[MplsBison]

They're never going to be nationally competitive at the level of USC because of the limited pool of recruits that they have to work with.


There just aren't that many kids who have those types of grades and are top athletes.

[Go...gate]

Princeton is also doing this.

[LBPop]

Just my luck Georgetown will do something like this next year.xbawlingx Of course, there's the small issue of money and Georgetown has none. xconfusedx

[blukeys]

Just my luck Georgetown will do something like this next year.xbawlingx Of course, there's the small issue of money and Georgetown has none. xconfusedx

Didn't Mr. Generous Bill Clinton go to Georgetown????? With the dough he is raking in why can't he finance something at his alma mater?

[93henfan]

Didn't Mr. Generous Bill Clinton go to Georgetown????? With the dough he is raking in why can't he finance something at his alma mater?

Yes, he matriculated his undergrad at G-Town, never inhaled at Oxford, and got his law schoolin' at Yale.

[LBPop]

Didn't Mr. Generous Bill Clinton go to Georgetown????? With the dough he is raking in why can't he finance something at his alma mater?

Willie is just one of many successful Hoya Alumni about whom I have asked the same question. It's quite a list. Frankly, I suspect that Georgetown has done a very poor job of asking. Anyone in sales or "development" as the non-profits like to call it, will tell you that if you don't ask, you don't get.

Note: I have been told that Patrick Ewing has been very generous and not just to the basketball program.

[brownbear]

Didn't Mr. Generous Bill Clinton go to Georgetown????? With the dough he is raking in why can't he finance something at his alma mater?

Yes, but compare the endowments of Georgetown and Harvard:

Georgetown: $1.052 billion
Harvard: $34.9 billion

Unless Bill Clinton's donating BILLIONS of dollars, Georgetown couldn't even come close to being able to give away money to almost all of its students. Same with Brown. Our endowment is $2.8 billion, but that's still less than 10% of Harvard's.

[Green26]

I wonder what effect, if any, the decision of Harvard and Princeton (I believe) to eliminate Early Decision applications, will have on football and other athletic recruiting at those schools.

Starting with applications this fall, for this year's high school seniors, these two schools no longer have the Early Decision program. This program allows applicants to apply early and hear on acceptances by about Dec. 15. Applicants signed agreements commiting to go to the particular school if accepted. Harvard's program may have been less or non binding,

A good number of football recruits are thus able to know for sure whether they are accepted as of mid-December in these programs. Schools that can persuade recruits to apply Early Decision pretty much know they have the recruit locked up if the recruit has been accepted in this program.

I assume the Patriot league also has early decision admissions programs.

I wonder if the Harvard and Princeton athletic departments have found ways around this seeming bump in their athletic recruiting process.

[Ivytalk]

I wonder what effect, if any, the decision of Harvard and Princeton (I believe) to eliminate Early Decision applications, will have on football and other athletic recruiting at those schools.

Starting with applications this fall, for this year's high school seniors, these two schools no longer have the Early Decision program. This program allows applicants to apply early and hear on acceptances by about Dec. 15. Applicants signed agreements commiting to go to the particular school if accepted. Harvard's program may have been less or non binding,

A good number of football recruits are thus able to know for sure whether they are accepted as of mid-December in these programs. Schools that can persuade recruits to apply Early Decision pretty much know they have the recruit locked up if the recruit has been accepted in this program.

I assume the Patriot league also has early decision admissions programs.

I wonder if the Harvard and Princeton athletic departments have found ways around this seeming bump in their athletic recruiting process.

Harvard had non-binding Early Action. But you're right: it will be interesting to see whether there's any correlation going forward between football success and an early admissions program.xreadx

All I know is that I was a senior when the total annual cost of a Harvard education went above $10K for the first time. Those were the days!:o

[DFW HOYA]

A good number of football recruits are thus able to know for sure whether they are accepted as of mid-December in these programs. Schools that can persuade recruits to apply Early Decision pretty much know they have the recruit locked up if the recruit has been accepted in this program.

I assume the Patriot league also has early decision admissions programs.


Five Patriot League schools have binding early decision: Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lehigh and Lafayette, per their web sites. Georgetown and Fordham are non-binding "Early Action" programs.

In Georgetown's case, holding spaces for recruited student-athletes are specifically not included in the Early Action pool. In those cases, it uses the "likely letter" pending admission decisions in April.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Five Patriot League schools have binding early decision: Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lehigh and Lafayette, per their web sites. Georgetown and Fordham are non-binding "Early Action" programs.

In Georgetown's case, holding spaces for recruited student-athletes are specifically not included in the Early Action pool. In those cases, it uses the "likely letter" pending admission decisions in April.

In the past, Lehigh has used a "likely letter" that was not binding. We've had a recruit leave just last year late in the game to accept a track scholarship at Washington State, for example. I think had we been part of the "letter of intent" program, he would have been formally bound to go to us.

If Lehigh has a more binding "letter of intent" type of thing, that would be new for this year I believe.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd suspect all the Pl schools use some form of the likely letter--I was referring to which schools had binding early admission programs and which did not. Some schools leave spaces in their early pool for athletes, others do not.

The bottom line is that the Ivy and NEC are, for different reasons, becoming more attractive options for the PL-level recruit. Whether the PL presidents sees this as a problem is anyone's guess.

[AlphaSigMD]

Yes, but compare the endowments of Georgetown and Harvard:

Georgetown: $1.052 billion
Harvard: $34.9 billion

Unless Bill Clinton's donating BILLIONS of dollars, Georgetown couldn't even come close to being able to give away money to almost all of its students. Same with Brown. Our endowment is $2.8 billion, but that's still less than 10% of Harvard's.


For a school that has "no money" thats quite a large endowment.

I think ASU's endowment is somewhere in 170 million range. UNC's is roughly 10x that. So, obviously you don't need a huge endowment to have a good football team.

All you need are inspired players, dedicated coaches, loyal fans and an administration willing to work hard in order to benefit each of these participants.

[LBPop]

For a school that has "no money" thats quite a large endowment.


I will defer to DFW here, but the inequity is in the cost to operate a school in Georgetown. With the exception of Columbia, NYU and neighboring George Washington, the cost of living (which translates into personnel costs--the largest cost to operate any organization) has to be as high as any school in the country.

[OL FU]

Just my luck Georgetown will do something like this next year.xbawlingx Of course, there's the small issue of money and Georgetown has none. xconfusedx

Forgive my ignorance. But I am always amazed when I hear this. How can a school with the prestige of Georgetown not have moneyxconfusedx xeyebrowx

[DetroitFlyer]

Forgive my ignorance. But I am always amazed when I hear this. How can a school with the prestige of Georgetown not have moneyxconfusedx xeyebrowx


GT has some money.... A billion dollar endowment puts them solidly in the top tier of endowed schools. Dayton has an endowment of 325 million or so, AND we have a great football program. Dayton is able to recruit against both the Ivy League and Patriot League. If an Ohio kid has Ivy or PL potential, Dayton can use academic aid, a growing national reputation, a winning tradition, cross country travel, and the opportunity for family and friends to make it to home games. YES, there are kids and families that pick Dayton over the Ivy and PL almost every year.

GT would be much better off as a PFL team. The bad MAAC experience will probably keep that from ever happening.

One more thing about PFL and Ivy aid.... A kid can quit football and still keep all of his aid. Not so in ANY other FCS league.

[OL FU]

GT has some money.... A billion dollar endowment puts them solidly in the top tier of endowed schools. Dayton has an endowment of 325 million or so, AND we have a great football program. Dayton is able to recruit against both the Ivy League and Patriot League. If an Ohio kid has Ivy or PL potential, Dayton can use academic aid, a growing national reputation, a winning tradition, cross country travel, and the opportunity for family and friends to make it to home games. YES, there are kids and families that pick Dayton over the Ivy and PL almost every year.

GT would be much better off as a PFL team. The bad MAAC experience will probably keep that from ever happening.

One more thing about PFL and Ivy aid.... A kid can quit football and still keep all of his aid. Not so in ANY other FCS league.

So Georgetown doesn't want to fund football is closer to the truthxconfusedx

[TheValleyRaider]

So Georgetown doesn't want to fund football is closer to the truthxconfusedx

From an outsider's perspective, yeah that's a big part of it. I do realize they're in the process of constructing several new buildings on campus (although they might be finished, they were building when I toured in the spring of 2002) which is definately a big capital project and doesn't leave much money for elsewhere. Still, their football spending lags behind the rest of the Patriot League, and in my mind definately contributes to their position at or near the bottom of the League.

Although, LBPop's complaint is also partially related to the fact he just finished paying out the ear for 4 years at G'town
(xbowx to you Pop)

[LBPop]

Although, LBPop's complaint is also partially related to the fact he just finished paying out the ear for 4 years at G'town
(xbowx to you Pop)

Thanks, but there's one more bill on its way shortly. Then I get a substantial raise. xhypedx

[WMTribe90]

So, if Harvard ever decided to drop tuition all-together and every admitted student basically was going for free, how would the NCAA handle this? The academies are in a similar situation where every student is attending for free and thus the football team has 100 de facto athletic scholarships. I think the exceptions for the academies are a good thing based on the post-graduation service requirement and are necessary for the academies to compete at the IA level. However, if a similar situation developed at Harvard, where the entire squad was essentially on full scholarship, would that be an unfair advantage at the FCS level. Its great that Harvard might be able to swing it, but would it be fair? I'm not really sure, which is why I ask.

[OL FU]

From an outsider's perspective, yeah that's a big part of it. I do realize they're in the process of constructing several new buildings on campus (although they might be finished, they were building when I toured in the spring of 2002) which is definately a big capital project and doesn't leave much money for elsewhere. Still, their football spending lags behind the rest of the Patriot League, and in my mind definately contributes to their position at or near the bottom of the League.

Although, LBPop's complaint is also partially related to the fact he just finished paying out the ear for 4 years at G'town
(xbowx to you Pop)

Thanks, I have heard many times of Gtowns financial woes. There is obviously a big difference in not having money and choosing to spend it on other things than footballxnodx

[OL FU]

Thanks, but there's one more bill on its way shortly. Then I get a substantial raise. xhypedx

Kudosxthumbsupx and Congratsxprost2x

[MplsBison]

Like I said, I don't see Harvard ever being nationally competitive at the level of USC.


Even if every player at Harvard had full scholarship, there still just aren't that many kids out there with those types of grades that are elite players.

[Lafayette71]

[QUOTE= If the Columbia's and Cornell's start applying this type of aid poilicy in earnest, you have to wonder how long the Patriot League (and maybe other private schools) can exist with "grants-in-aid" to compete.

Discuss.[/QUOTE]

Now this is an interesting development, particularly the elimination of loans in favor of grants.

When I was looking at schools back in 1996, my final two choices for football were Lafayette and Harvard. The determining factor in my case was the Grants/aid offered by Lafayette exceeded the financial aid from Havard. Harvards package had the difference made up in student loans. If the current situation was in place, and both Harvard and Lafayette offered Grant/Aid packages for essentially the full cost, I think it would have been real tough to pass up a free trip to Harvard. You would also have to think that a lot of middle class families would feel the same way. All things being equal it really came down to where I got the Best deal.

With the Ivy League rep and a stronger financial position in recruiting, the Ivy's could make things very tough on the PL if more schools adopted this approach. Could this be the push the PL needs to get a scholarship system in place? If the league continues to drag their collective feet, the already difficult task of recruiting against Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc for top level student athletes gets even tougher as those schools are in a even better position to recruit middle and upper middle class student athletes.

The level of competion against the rest of the FCS has plateaud in my opinion. Something like this could cause the league to start to lose ground to non autobid scholarship conferences that are nearing if not already our equal. It will be interesting to see what if any reaction this gets from the Patriot League.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, if Harvard ever decided to drop tuition all-together and every admitted student basically was going for free, how would the NCAA handle this? The academies are in a similar situation where every student is attending for free and thus the football team has 100 de facto athletic scholarships. I think the exceptions for the academies are a good thing based on the post-graduation service requirement and are necessary for the academies to compete at the IA level. However, if a similar situation developed at Harvard, where the entire squad was essentially on full scholarship, would that be an unfair advantage at the FCS level. Its great that Harvard might be able to swing it, but would it be fair? I'm not really sure, which is why I ask.

This is where discussion about the Ivies' "banding system" comes into play and Academic Indexes. By rule the Ivy League puts limits as to the number of players they can recruit based on their academic numbers, but can take two players in the lowest "band" that they qualify for. The great majority of their team will be in the top band (which has all high AI players), but a Harvard can recruit up to two athletes from the floor on up to the highest threshold of the lowest band. So they are limited... and at the same time they're not.

This means Harvard can still go head-to-head against Cornell for a recruit if they want (and will probably get him) - but Cornell can get many more recruits in the same AI area. Cornell won't win most head-to-head battles against Harvard, but (in theory) they'd be able to recruit more of them and get them.

As I mentioned at the top, I wonder if this starts an "arms race" that will extend to the Brown's, Dartmouth's, Cornell's and Columbia's. If it does so, and the Ivy League offers more and more free education, you wonder where the rest of FCS, and the Patriot League specifically, will end up in all of this. They will have to either offer more free education to all, or offer athletic scholarships.

[WMTribe90]

When I was looking at schools back in 1996, my final two choices for football were Lafayette and Harvard. The determining factor in my case was the Grants/aid offered by Lafayette exceeded the financial aid from Havard. Harvards package had the difference made up in student loans. If the current situation was in place, and both Harvard and Lafayette offered Grant/Aid packages for essentially the full cost, I think it would have been real tough to pass up a free trip to Harvard. You would also have to think that a lot of middle class families would feel the same way. All things being equal it really came down to where I got the Best deal.

Agreed, I had a similar situation where I chose WM over Harvard and Dartmouth in 1995. If the current grant program was in place at Harvard it would have been hard to turn down. In 1995 my folks would have been on the hook for close to half the Harvard tuition, but the current policy would have made it virtually free. Even with the banding restrictions this is a big advantage. I think it will allow Harvard to attract more middle and upper class kids with athletic scholarships to places like Duke, Furman, WM, etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agreed, I had a similar situation where I chose WM over Harvard and Dartmouth in 1995. If the current grant program was in place at Harvard it would have been hard to turn down. In 1995 my folks would have been on the hook for close to half the Harvard tuition, but the current policy would have made it virtually free. Even with the banding restrictions this is a big advantage. I think it will allow Harvard to attract more middle and upper class kids with athletic scholarships to places like Duke, Furman, WM, etc.

Exactly. And you wonder if Harvard ultimately says "what the hell" and make it free for everyone under $100K. Then you wonder what Yale, Penn, and Princeton would do. And then Dartmouth, Columbia, Cornell, and Brown...

[Franks Tanks]

Exactly. And you wonder if Harvard ultimately says "what the hell" and make it free for everyone under $100K. Then you wonder what Yale, Penn, and Princeton would do. And then Dartmouth, Columbia, Cornell, and Brown...

This is very interesting and what I was wondering as well. Many of us Patriot league people probably said Oh S**T when hearing of this as we knew it would affect our recruiting to some degree. As much as this can disturb PL recruiting imagine what the Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia athletic departmets must be thinking now. Forget the PL for a moment, how are the other Ivies gonna compete with this?

[ngineer]

Didn't Mr. Generous Bill Clinton go to Georgetown????? With the dough he is raking in why can't he finance something at his alma mater?

Certainly seems good at 'putting it through the uprights"...;) :D

[ngineer]

This is very interesting and what I was wondering as well. Many of us Patriot league people probably said Oh S**T when hearing of this as we knew it would affect our recruiting to some degree. As much as this can disturb PL recruiting imagine what the Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia athletic departmets must be thinking now. Forget the PL for a moment, how are the other Ivies gonna compete with this?

Hmm...Could lead to the demise of the Ivy League, as we know it. Maybe some of the bottom tiers, in terms of money, approach the PL????xrotatehx

[Go...gate]

I'd suspect all the Pl schools use some form of the likely letter--I was referring to which schools had binding early admission programs and which did not. Some schools leave spaces in their early pool for athletes, others do not.

The bottom line is that the Ivy and NEC are, for different reasons, becoming more attractive options for the PL-level recruit. Whether the PL presidents sees this as a problem is anyone's guess.

I'm starting to wonder if some of them notice anything...xsmhx

[turfdoc]

I can say if this was in place back when I was being recruited I would be a Harvard grad.

Many recruiting letters but I found it selfish to put the fam (uppermiddle class I might add) through the added expense when it was paid for somewhere else. This would have made it very affordable. A lot of teams have 3-4 players that have the grades to do the Ivey thing just not family resources.... this makes it possible. I assume this is just tuition and board is still the problem of the family (or does this include room and board?).

[LBPop]

Over the past four years I have reflected on the recruiting process when LBKid went through it. In speaking with the Yale coach, he was discussing the more liberal academic requirements applied to football players to get them into the school. He said that the mere acceptance to Yale, "is our form of scholarship". Fortunately the Kid easily fit into the high band, but I must say that Harvard's announcement sure adds a significant dimension.

When we were looking at schools including several Ivies, there was no getting away from the money issue. But under this scenario, Harvard simply has to decide two questions: 1) Can we get him in? 2) Do we want him? The third question that every other non-scholarship program has to deal with is: 3) Can the family afford to send him here? That one goes away for the Crimson. What an advantage...

[Bison4Life]

interesting

[HIU 93]

This AP article doesn't say it, but let's get real: if you have those sort of academic index numbers, there is no longer any choice:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/harvard_financial_aid



This doesn't come as a total surprise. If you've got the grades and can throw the football 70 yards across your body, you can make it into Harvard - and now they're looking to pay more of the "$60K to $90K" kids as well. You wonder when they'll start to say "under six figures, it's free".

Harvard, as most people understand, is a unique case. The real interesting part comes for many private schools if the rest of the Ivy League eventually goes to something similar. If the Columbia's and Cornell's start applying this type of aid poilicy in earnest, you have to wonder how long the Patriot League (and maybe other private schools) can exist with "grants-in-aid" to compete.

Discuss.

Good for Harvard. My son will be attending Hampton (I might consider Morehouse, maybe A&T, but Hampton is where I will brainwash him to attend).xlolx xthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

That one goes away for the Crimson. What an advantage...

Advantage over who? The other Ivies? Yeah...

who else?


How many kids can legitimately play DI ball and have the grades to get in?

[Polloloco]

"When we were looking at schools including several Ivies, there was no getting away from the money issue. But under this scenario, Harvard simply has to decide two questions: 1) Can we get him in? 2) Do we want him? The third question that every other non-scholarship program has to deal with is: 3) Can the family afford to send him here? That one goes away for the Crimson. What an advantage"

... now the applicant gets to ask the MOST important 4th question: Can I endure 4 years looking at the beastly co-eds at harvard? Or are the ones at Penn prettier?

I believe you'll see ALL of the Ivies ( with possible exception of Brown- smallest of IVY endowments) moving this direction in next 5 years

[Ivytalk]

"When we were looking at schools including several Ivies, there was no getting away from the money issue. But under this scenario, Harvard simply has to decide two questions: 1) Can we get him in? 2) Do we want him? The third question that every other non-scholarship program has to deal with is: 3) Can the family afford to send him here? That one goes away for the Crimson. What an advantage"

... now the applicant gets to ask the MOST important 4th question: Can I endure 4 years looking at the beastly co-eds at harvard? Or are the ones at Penn prettier?
I believe you'll see ALL of the Ivies ( with possible exception of Brown- smallest of IVY endowments) moving this direction in next 5 years

I have to rise to the defense of Harvard women here! xnonox "Beastly" is pretty strong language when you consider that there's no proven correlation between intelligence and physical attractiveness, regardless of gender. In my experience, we had the same "1 to 10" range that most schools do.xpeacex

Now Penn women, on the other hand....:p

[LBPop]

Advantage over who? The other Ivies? Yeah...
who else?
How many kids can legitimately play DI ball and have the grades to get in?

Maybe this statistic will help illustrate. We asked the Yale coach how many of the previous year's football class of 30 would have gotten in without football. He estimated 2. Now it's anyone's guess how much Yale stretched their guidelines, but it's obvious that they stretched. So 28 kids didn't have the grades to get in...but they did. That would seem to greatly increase the number of "kids who can legitimately play DI ball and have the grades to get in." In this case Harvard's obvious competitive advantage would be against the other Ivies and the PL schools, but wait...there's more.

Let's talk about Duke, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Northwestern and any other DI scholarship program with a big time academic reputation. Do you suppose that a few of each of their recruits anually might have preferred Harvard and could have gotten in, but couldn't afford the $200K four year commitment? Or maybe they just didn't think Harvard was worth $200K more than Stanford. How many of those kids would Harvard have to pick off to completely distort the competitive balance among the schools they play? When we visited Harvard they bluntly declared that when competing with the other Ivies, "If we want 'em we usually get 'em". Whether that's true or not, I'm trying to imagine what he would have said if the money competition was not on a level playing field.

I'm not a "doom and gloom" kind of guy, but this could have an impact.

[dbackjon]

Advantage over who? The other Ivies? Yeah...

who else?


How many kids can legitimately play DI ball and have the grades to get in?

More than you think.

NAU's all-conference TE had the grades to go to Harvard (his brother was starting QB at one time for Harvard), but choose NAU. Had he gotten a full ride to Harvard, like he is getting to NAU, who knows. But Shaun Fitzpatrick could start/play for most any FCS team.

[Ivytalk]

As a former alumni interviewer, I can tell you that Harvard did cut talented athletes some meaningful slack on grades and SAT scores, and not just for football. That supports what LB Pop was told ("if we want 'em, we get 'em"). I always wondered how many smart kids with better numbers but different talents failed to make the admissions "cut" at the end of the day. It's all part of the "diverse student body," I suppose.xrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I have to rise to the defense of Harvard women here! xnonox "Beastly" is pretty strong language when you consider that there's no proven correlation between intelligence and physical attractiveness, regardless of gender. In my experience, we had the same "1 to 10" range that most schools do.xpeacex

Now Penn women, on the other hand....:p

I can attest that this does not apply to the staff of the Crimson newspaper... xeekx xrotatehx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Over the past four years I have reflected on the recruiting process when LBKid went through it. In speaking with the Yale coach, he was discussing the more liberal academic requirements applied to football players to get them into the school. He said that the mere acceptance to Yale, "is our form of scholarship". Fortunately the Kid easily fit into the high band, but I must say that Harvard's announcement sure adds a significant dimension.

When we were looking at schools including several Ivies, there was no getting away from the money issue. But under this scenario, Harvard simply has to decide two questions: 1) Can we get him in? 2) Do we want him? The third question that every other non-scholarship program has to deal with is: 3) Can the family afford to send him here? That one goes away for the Crimson. What an advantage...

And look at what that recruiting emphasis has wrought for Yale - a co-championship last year, a near-championship this year, and will be the preseason favorite again in 2008. Shows exactly what H-Y-P can do why they get institutional support and they put their minds to it.


Hmm...Could lead to the demise of the Ivy League, as we know it. Maybe some of the bottom tiers, in terms of money, approach the PL????xrotatehx

This was said in jest (I think), but it deserves real consideration here. How long might it be before Cornell and Brown say that they can't keep up with the arms race in football and suffer with zero chance of breaking into the Penn/Princeton clique in men's basketball? What about Dartmouth and Columbia, too?

[brownbear]

This was said in jest (I think), but it deserves real consideration here. How long might it be before Cornell and Brown say that they can't keep up with the arms race in football and suffer with zero chance of breaking into the Penn/Princeton clique in men's basketball? What about Dartmouth and Columbia, too?

I think the Penn/Princeton streak in basketball is ending this year. Most sources have Cornell favored to win the Ivy League and Princeton and Penn to be lame this year.

Columbia has just never cared, so I don't see how this is different.

[Ivytalk]

And look at what that recruiting emphasis has wrought for Yale - a co-championship last year, a near-championship this year, and will be the preseason favorite again in 2008. Shows exactly what H-Y-P can do why they get institutional support and they put their minds to it.

Yale has the best institutional/alumni support for football in the Ivy League, bar none. The Eli should be the favorites every year.xtwocentsx

[DetroitFlyer]

Heck, I think that Davidson is going to a similar model.... Maybe we are looking at the demise of the PFL....

The Ivy League is currently a middle of the road FCS conference at best. I think they are way over rated. They shun games against other FCS conferences except the PL because THEY do not think they can compete. USD, a non-scholarship PFL team completely dismantled Ivy Co-Champ Yale in 2006. If Harvard or Yale had played USD or Dayton in 2007, they would have been spanked again. Frankly, the Ivy League could use some "recruiting advantages"....

[Model Citizen]

The PFL is fine with what DC is doing. Keep in mind the bit about parents still having to pay about 18 grand a year**. Isn't that about what Dayton parents pay for a kid with some merit aid?

The situation at Davidson will be much the same. Inflated tuition requires more financial aid, but a full ride (for most people), it's not.

**--assume family income of $180,000/yr, the upper end of their "middle class" range. Probably close to the family incomes of many on the east coast and California.

[LBPop]

USD, a non-scholarship PFL team completely dismantled Ivy Co-Champ Yale in 2006. If Harvard or Yale had played USD or Dayton in 2007, they would have been spanked again.

My impression is that deep inside the power structure of the Ivy League schools, their reaction would be the same as Tommy Lee Jones in the The Fugitive, "I don't care." I suspect that the only reason they play out of conference games is because there are not 11 schools in the league. I don't necessarily think the coaches or players feel that way, but they don't really matter to the Ivy League hierarchy. These people only care about winning their league and they will rationalize everything else based on their "profound academic superiority."

[Franks Tanks]

Heck, I think that Davidson is going to a similar model.... Maybe we are looking at the demise of the PFL....

The Ivy League is currently a middle of the road FCS conference at best. I think they are way over rated. They shun games against other FCS conferences except the PL because THEY do not think they can compete. USD, a non-scholarship PFL team completely dismantled Ivy Co-Champ Yale in 2006. If Harvard or Yale had played USD or Dayton in 2007, they would have been spanked again. Frankly, the Ivy League could use some "recruiting advantages"....

Who is over rating the Ivy league. Most people on here are very realistic about the talent of the league. I still contend that the Ivy champs would have a good chance to win a playoff game or two most years, but they wouldnt be raking in FCS championships by any means

[MplsBison]

Let's talk about Duke, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Northwestern and any other DI scholarship program with a big time academic reputation.

Harvard will not compete for the players that go to these programs.


They won't lower their standards that much.



So like I've been saying, their recruiting pool is just too much smaller than the big time football schools to be nationally competitive.

[WMTribe90]

MPLSBison,

You're clueless on this one. Virtually every Ivy League squad has a couple of guys that passed on scholarships to IA programs. With Harvards new grant policy, they WILL attract more of these type individuals. They may not be blue chip recruits.... but for a select group of academically minded recruits the prestige of attending Harvard is a bigger draw than the prestige of playing IA at a duke or Wake Forest, especially when they both educations are paid for by the school. Realize that you have no expertise on this subject and accept the informed opinion of those who do. Just a suggestion.

[MplsBison]

Any player that would rather play at Harvard, where the biggest acheivement possible is winning the Ivy Leage championship, over a school like Wake Forest, where you have a realistic opportunity to win the ACC championship and play in a BCS bowl, is not a legitimate DI football player.

[LBPop]

Harvard will not compete for the players that go to these programs. They won't lower their standards that much.


Please tell me that you are kidding. They not only will lower their standards...they have done so and they will continue to do so. Harvard turns down 50% of their regular applicants who achieved 1600 SAT scores (the old two score test). I'm sure their football players are a quality group of young men, but do you really think that they can stand up to that standard?

Hey Ivytalk, does the Harvard football team have their own Mensa chapter? Will they let in a soon-to-be Georgetown graduate whose Dad used to have a few dollars? ;)

[MplsBison]

Harvard turns down 50% of their regular applicants who achieved 1600 SAT scores (the old two score test). I'm sure their football players are a quality group of young men, but do you really think that they can stand up to that standard?


No and I've never implied this.


What I am implying is that at schools like Wake Forest and Boston College, both of which have some of the top graduation rates in FBS, you can go to school there if you play football, period.


That isn't true at Harvard and never will be.

You have to have some level of elite academic ability to ever set foot on the Harvard stadium field as a player.

[LBPop]

Any player that would rather play at Harvard, where the biggest acheivement possible is winning the Ivy Leage championship, over a school like Wake Forest, where you have a realistic opportunity to win the ACC championship and play in a BCS bowl, is not a legitimate DI football player.

What I believe is being said here is not that the young man would rather play at Harvard. But that there would be several recruits who would rather attend Harvard, obtain their education from Harvard, and graduate from Harvard. And to them, I don't think it would be so bad to be characterized as an "illegitimate" football player.

Your example of Wake Forest is a good one. It's an outstanding school that is only one year removed from an ACC championship. Harvard won't get 'em all for the reasons you cite. Using that awful cliche, "Different Strokes". But if they get just a few more each year, it could be huge.

[Franks Tanks]

Any player that would rather play at Harvard, where the biggest acheivement possible is winning the Ivy Leage championship, over a school like Wake Forest, where you have a realistic opportunity to win the ACC championship and play in a BCS bowl, is not a legitimate DI football player.

Matt Birk, Isiah Kasivinski, Ryan Fitzpartick (the ex-Rams QB), Clifton Dotson are players that teams like Duke wish they had. Matt Birk was probably the best center in the NFL before his hip injury. Oh they all played FB at Harvard within the last decade.

[LBPop]

You have to have some level of elite academic ability to ever set foot on the Harvard stadium field as a player.

I thought the same thing four years ago and I learned that I was wrong. There are no total dummies, but the standards are very different...particularly in the lower bands.

I always joked that the perfect Ivy League recruit was someone who's weighted GPA (5.0 maximum) matched his 40 time. ;)

[turfdoc]

One quick question I asked ealrier but it would probably be lost in a post, but I assume Harvard is exclusively talking about tuition.

One of the deciding factors for me when choosing a school was living allowance (what was the room and board equivalence of my scholarship). I find it hard that a basketball player would pass up Duke or Stanford that includes living allowance for Harvard that doesn't.

Now I can see a student looking past other schools for the Harvard education if all they had to pay was living expenses. Most students smart enough to get into Harvard know their chances to make the big time are very limited and the education is much more important. They also know you can get there from here.

Where it really impacts is those few players who can get in and now chose to go to other schools. I am sure there is AT LEAST one to two on almost every 1-AA school in the country. Maybe just at my school.... but I think that number is about right.

[MplsBison]

Matt Birk, Isiah Kasivinski, Ryan Fitzpartick (the ex-Rams QB), Clifton Dotson are players that teams like Duke wish they had. Matt Birk was probably the best center in the NFL before his hip injury. Oh they all played FB at Harvard within the last decade.

But, taking Matt Birk for example, unless I know what schools recruited him, I can't say anything more.


If Harvard was the biggest school that recruited him, then he is a legitmate DI player. He wanted to go to the biggest school that was recruiting him.


But if he was being recruiting by Boston College as well (and don't tell me BC is a bad school), then I have no choice but to label Birk as someone who would rather be a student first an a player on the side.

[Franks Tanks]

But, taking Matt Birk for example, unless I know what schools recruited him, I can't say anything more.


If Harvard was the biggest school that recruited him, then he is a legitmate DI player. He wanted to go to the biggest school that was recruiting him.


But if he was being recruiting by Boston College as well (and don't tell me BC is a bad school), then I have no choice but to label Birk as someone who would rather be a student first an a player on the side.

Hes in the NFL, he would have been a legitimate player no matter where he went. That is the stupidist statement ever, just because you care about academics doesnt mean you dont also care about football and put just as much into it and the dumbest jock on the team.

[Ivytalk]

Heck, I think that Davidson is going to a similar model.... Maybe we are looking at the demise of the PFL....

The Ivy League is currently a middle of the road FCS conference at best. I think they are way over rated. They shun games against other FCS conferences except the PL because THEY do not think they can compete. USD, a non-scholarship PFL team completely dismantled Ivy Co-Champ Yale in 2006. If Harvard or Yale had played USD or Dayton in 2007, they would have been spanked again. Frankly, the Ivy League could use some "recruiting advantages"....

I don't know your face, but your whine is familiar!:p Gee, Flyer, isn't that chip on your shoulder getting awful heavy right now? xrolleyesx

[Ivytalk]

Please tell me that you are kidding. They not only will lower their standards...they have done so and they will continue to do so. Harvard turns down 50% of their regular applicants who achieved 1600 SAT scores (the old two score test). I'm sure their football players are a quality group of young men, but do you really think that they can stand up to that standard?

Hey Ivytalk, does the Harvard football team have their own Mensa chapter? Will they let in a soon-to-be Georgetown graduate whose Dad used to have a few dollars? ;)

Dunno about that, LBPop, but we'd be happy to have your fine son any old time! xbowx xthumbsupx But Harvard football had its years in the wilderness...only 2 winning years between '88 and 2000, including the title year of '97.xreadx

[DFW HOYA]

Forgive my ignorance. But I am always amazed when I hear this. How can a school with the prestige of Georgetown not have moneyxconfusedx xeyebrowx

Losing $350 million on a medical center over a 10 year period will do that to anyone...except Harvard, of course...

[LBPop]

But if he was being recruiting by Boston College as well (and don't tell me BC is a bad school), then I have no choice but to label Birk as someone who would rather be a student first an a player on the side.

xnottalkingx

[MplsBison]

Hes in the NFL, he would have been a legitimate player no matter where he went.


Ability alone doesn't make you a legitimate DI player. That should be quite obvious.

[Ivytalk]

Losing $350 million on a medical center over a 10 year period will do that to anyone...except Harvard, of course...

Harvard's had its share of crappy investments over the years.xsmhx

I hope its new president doesn't prove to be one of them.xcoolx

[Franks Tanks]

Ability alone doesn't make you a legitimate DI player. That should be quite obvious.

Ok, it takes ability, motivation, and dedication. It takes more dedication and motivation to suceed as a FB player at Harvard than Florida St. as at Harvard you actually go to classes, and they are hard. Abilility levels are of course different here--but hey ability is only a small part right

[MplsBison]

I would add in a component called the will to achieve.

If you don't have the will to achieve, then you don't care about things like winning championships.

Just as long as you get to play the game of football, who cares if your team wins anything?



And obviously if you have a strong will to achieve, you want to go to a program that allows your team to achieve the most.

As nice as a Harvard diploma is, playing football for the Harvard program doesn't give much opportunity to achieve.

[Franks Tanks]

I would add in a component called the will to achieve.

If you don't have the will to achieve, then you don't care about things like winning championships.

Just as long as you get to play the game of football, who cares if your team wins anything?



And obviously if you have a strong will to achieve, you want to go to a program that allows your team to achieve the most.

As nice as a Harvard diploma is, playing football for the Harvard program doesn't give much opportunity to achieve great feats as a team.

Will to achieve translates into the classroom as well. I understand what you are saying --your looking a a person who makes all there decision based solely on FB--but if they dont it doesnt mean they arent a legitimate player

[MplsBison]

You have your opinion.


Mine is that a legitimate player wants to go to the program that allows them to achieve the most as a team.

[401ks]

You have your opinion.

I share Frank's opinion.

[Lafayette71]

Advantage over who? The other Ivies? Yeah...

who else?


How many kids can legitimately play DI ball and have the grades to get in?

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Dartmouth have sent some quality players on to the next level. Each of the other Ivy schools have as well.

Beyond that the vast majority of FCS student atheletes have a good enough head on there shoulders to understand their odds of playing at any level above college. The academic rep of the Ivy's trumps the football rep for many talented athletes if there is no added cost to the player.

If the offer of a full ride and higher level of football make some scholarship conferences more attractive to upper level talent, Harvard can now essentially offer the full ride and academic credentials as well as a football program steeped in tradition (who wouldn't want to play in the Harvard-Yale game) and very competitive.

This is bad news for their in-conference competitors, and if the rest of the league follows suit, it gives the whole league an edge in recruiting on any school currently considered their peer in football

[Lafayette71]

Please tell me that you are kidding. They not only will lower their standards...they have done so and they will continue to do so. Harvard turns down 50% of their regular applicants who achieved 1600 SAT scores (the old two score test). I'm sure their football players are a quality group of young men, but do you really think that they can stand up to that standard?

Hey Ivytalk, does the Harvard football team have their own Mensa chapter? Will they let in a soon-to-be Georgetown graduate whose Dad used to have a few dollars? ;)

A 1240 SAT score got me in to Harvard to play football. I don't have any illusions that I was getting in based on my academic merit.

The selection of Lafayette over Harvard came down to one thing, money. Harvards package included student loans and financial aid, whereas Lafayette offered a combination of financial aid and grants.

Now if your comparing scholarship schools to Harvard, I think it's foolish to say that it takes more will to achieve to want to play football at a higher level for a lesser school. I think it takes more will and desire for personal acheivement in life to accept the academic challenge of a school knowing the rigors of playing football at any level.

[LBPop]

Mine is that a legitimate player wants to go to the program that allows them to achieve the most as a team.

Well, I guess I have now learned that my son was not a legitimate player. He decided to go to Georgetown and "achieved" only 10 victories in four years. I guess as an illegitimate player he didn't care about football. I guess when he started his entire junior year playing on an ankle that needed surgery, he didn't care about football. I guess when he was working on Wall Street this summer, had to get in his daily workouts at midnight and yet be back at work by 7:00 AM, he didn't care about football. I guess when he had surgery after his junior year and spent hour upon hour rehabilitating that ankle when he could have just spent time working on his grades and solidifying his career, he didn't care about football. I am now enlightened and I am very grateful to you for assisting me in understanding what it takes to be a legitimate football player.

To you fathers and mothers out there, let it be my Holiday wish to you that if your sons or daughters are fortunate enough to play a sport at the collegiate level, that they do so in a totally illegitimate manner. You will be very proud, I assure you.

[MplsBison]

It depends on who else offered him.

[MplsBison]

Harvard can now essentially offer the full ride and academic credentials as well as a football program steeped in tradition (who wouldn't want to play in the Harvard-Yale game) and very competitive.


But I don't believe we have determined if Harvard is offering only free tuition, or indeed a full ride.

[OLPOP]

Mpls... Are you telling us that the "legitimacy" of a player depends on which schools "offered" him as a high school senior?

[TheValleyRaider]

To you fathers and mothers out there, let it be my Holiday wish to you that if your sons or daughters are fortunate enough to play a sport at the collegiate level, that they do so in a totally illegitimate manner. You will be very proud, I assure you.


Mpls... Are you telling us that the "legitimacy" of a player depends on which schools "offered" him as a high school senior?

Fellas, don't let Mpls get to you like that

In his world, schools exist only for football, and by not committing only to football have only proven their own unworthiness as "real" schools

[ngineer]

Most students who are looking at FCS schools realize their chance of 'playing on Sunday' are slim, and those with their heads screwed on right realize that they need to get as good an education as possible for their future career. Not to say one can't make it to the NFL,because we all know if you're good enough you'll be discovered regardless of where you play. Those students recruited at Ivy and PL schools are looking for a school that will meet their academic needs for future careers and a quality program that will provide them with the opportunity to play the game they love. The financial packages will frequently tip the balance of a choice where one is on the fence; but the recruit will usually decide where they feel they going to be most satisfied for four years in pursuing their main goal. The athletics provide a means for many to achieve a degree from a quality school with many/most/some of the costs covered.

[MplsBison]

Mpls... Are you telling us that the "legitimacy" of a player depends on which schools "offered" him as a high school senior?

Of course not, that's silly.

[Green26]

An interesting and informational discussion.

I believe Harvard's better financial aid package will help them in recruiting. Like a number of you, I think the financial gap/cost--even if only a few thousands dollars per year (let alone $5,000 or more a year)--of playing at an Ivy or similar school/conference does result in some recruits opting for a full-ride at non-Ivy school. While I would argue that this is a small price to pay for an Ivy or similar education, the majority of football recruits and parents wouldn't see it that way.

While I would hope that other Ivies can match what Harvard is doing, my impression is that most of the other Ivies don't have the money to do that.

Dartmouth allows coaches to provide their recruit lists to admissions in the early decision process. As of several years ago, Dartmouth was getting 6 - 10 or so recruits accepted in the ED process. I suspect this number has improved, with the arrival of coach Teevens, but don't know. In the years only 6 or so were accepted, this was hurting recruiting significantly, as there were recruits who were thought by the coaches to be qualifed, who were not being accepted.

A funny story from the late 60's, and before the Academic Index. A senior admissions person at Harvard told me that many of their athletes were admitted in what he called the "happy bottom quarter". He said it was very difficult for many smart and high-achieving kids to come to Harvard, not be at the top of the class, and not get all A's. However, many athletes either were never at the top of their high school classes, or weren't bothered by the not getting all A's. Thus, they were content in the Happy Bottom Quarter.

[Polloloco]

Bell Curve of Academic Performance... 3 standard deviations to the right... in a normally distributed population somewhere around the 95th percentile... occasionally reaching back 2 SD, and on rare occasions the -80th percentile... those students who now because of a cost benefit are choosing a public university( UVA, UM, UNC, UCal, UT) who have Honors programs... handful may now choose Harvard... whew alot of intellectual gymnastics for the sake of maybe 3-5 players who still have to decide do they want to look at those BEASTLY coeds in Cambridge... or choose the outstanding coed scenery ( and academics to boot) at Virginia, Cal, UNC, Stanford, Wake, Vandy, Delaware, etc...amazing they have't shut this silly thread down yet... fart on a skittlexrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx