How do you stop the spread?

[Tealblood]

just wondering anybody got any ideas

['neers80]

just wondering anybody got any ideas
ask pitt. they beat WV at home - thats where app got the spread from

[Tribe4SF]

That depends who's running it. If it's Armanti Edwards, forget it.xcoffeex

[Rob Iola]

UNI came close - start with a strong rush w/front 4.

[Skjellyfetti]

Pretty long, but a very good read. Written by Cincinnati's DB coach, Kerry Coombs:

http://www.ohsfca.org/Defend_Spread.htm

[Jerbearasu]

My best opinion is don't give up the home run ball. Make them pick you a part for those 4-5 yard gains and hopefully you can get them to make a mistake and turn the ball over. With as many weapons as App has it is tough to stop but most teams are killed by the 20-30 yard gains App has not the small 4-5 yard stuff. JMU also had a great game plan to stop the Spread--- don't let App touch the ball...

[TheValleyRaider]

My guess:

Same way you beat the option. Play your assigned man, and tackle well. Both offenses are similar in that they rely to some extent or another on deception and misdirection.

[kalm]

I'm not sure how to stop it, other than have superior athletes, and look at what good that did Michigan.

Now if you ask how to beat the spread, well then JearbearASU's suggestionas seem accurate. I would also add include the previous remark about making the game shorter. If those fail, you can always try to kill the head, or out-spread it. xthumbsupx

[Chi Panther]

Your offense has to control the line of scrimmage and clock by running the ball....

[McNeese_beat]

My take is it forces you to re-evaluate personnel. Because of the nature of the spread, you need players who play in space. So it puts a premium on LBs, DEs and safeties who can fill holes and make tackles in space.

You can't have big pluggers at LB, otherwise, they'll get isolated with an Armanti Edwards or a Tim Tebow and look stupid.

[james_lawfirm]

I'm not sure how to stop it, other than have superior athletes, and look at what good that did Michigan.

Now if you ask how to beat the spread, well then JearbearASU's suggestionas seem accurate. I would also add include the previous remark about making the game shorter. If those fail, you can always try to kill the head, or out-spread it. xthumbsupx

Kalm:

Since you brought up Michigan, I want to comment. In my opinion, the ASU/Mich. game was not a matter of superior athletes vs. inferior ones. Rather, it was a matter of strength vs. speed. Mich. chose to build its team with strong fellers & App chose speedy ones.

Speed kills.

I tried to read that high school coach's soliloquy (link posted on this thread) on how to stop the spread, but I could not finish it. And, I don't think defensive players on the college level will take the time to read it either. Even if they did, I don't think it would do them much good.

So, my answer on how to stop the spread, at least ASU's version of it, is this: get defensive players who are faster and quicker than the offensive teams. Good luck with that. A number of ASU's players are track stars - D. Jackson has won some SoCon track events. And, for the record, the defense must be faster and quicker b/c they must react to the offensive player who knows where he is going.

The days of big, fat boys playing football is over. Just ask Michigan. Another example of what team speed means would be the Ohio State/Florida bowl game last year. All those who picked Florida to win that game in a blowout, please stand up.

[JohnStOnge]

UNI came close - start with a strong rush w/front 4.

I think that's the biggest key. A quality defensive line. Course you have to have other good defensive players too.

But I don't think there's anything magical about the spread. It's players. If you have players that can run your system your system will work.

One thing's for sure. We're not going to have national champions at "all levels" of NCAA football be teams that run the spread this year! Neither LSU nor Ohio State run it. I don't think Mount Union runs it either...so I don't think it really happened last year. But I may be proven wrong when I watched the D-III championship game. I watched it last year but I swear I can't remember.

Ok I found a Youtube of the 2006 D-III title game highlights. They do run something like the spread sometimes. But they also line up under center sometimes. I'll have to watch this year's title game to see what their overall tendency is. They'll be there...again...as they won their semifinal 62-14.

[Eagle22]

Your offense has to control the line of scrimmage and clock by running the ball....

Yep. That's the answer IMO.

It's no coincidence that GSU and Wofford positioned themselves to beat ASU by being successful running the ball. Eating up clock reduces the number of possessions that dangerous ASU offense can potentially score on.

Add in some good fortune in the turnover department, and then you might be in a situation where you can escape with a win.

[Yosef92]

Stopping it by using ball control is effective, but not really stopping it. Just preventing it from taking the field.

I've seen 2 teams this year, play a static front four. No blitzing. They stand and rush under control(almost walking slowly in) and maintaining their gaps. And most importantly, the DEs have to maintain their areas/zones. Seems like AE was stymied in those situations. But that is going to allow a long time to pass.

I will say the spy doesn't work with AE. He'll beat the spy 1-on-1. Keeping him bottled up works best. I guess I'm just commenting on Apps spread, not all of them.

Not sure, just what I've seen be effective.

[Eyes of Old Main]

Defending the spread is similar to defending the option in that it takes a bunch of discipline on the defenses part not to overcommit. Penetration blows up the option, but doesn't hurt the spread as much because of the cutback ability of the offensive backs.

In general though, I agree with the earlier assessments that it will take ball control, clock control, and limit mistakes such as turnovers and penalties. Package all that and maybe a defense can stay disciplined enough to have the spread offense make a mistake.

[McNeese_beat]

Stopping it by using ball control is effective, but not really stopping it. Just preventing it from taking the field.

I've seen 2 teams this year, play a static front four. No blitzing. They stand and rush under control(almost walking slowly in) and maintaining their gaps. And most importantly, the DEs have to maintain their areas/zones. Seems like AE was stymied in those situations. But that is going to allow a long time to pass.

I will say the spy doesn't work with AE. He'll beat the spy 1-on-1. Keeping him bottled up works best. I guess I'm just commenting on Apps spread, not all of them.

Not sure, just what I've seen be effective.

That's why I made the observation that it makes you re-evaluate personnel. Now your inside backers have to play in space. McNeese has a LB, Nelson, who I think would have a chance containing a speed player because he's a legit 4.5 guy himself. He is a very effective player in space. But your traditional, 6-3, 230-pound LB who takes on FBs in the hole then sheds them to make a tackle won't be effective against an Armanti Edwards or a Tim Tebow...

But if you have small, fast, LBs, you better be DAMN good up front, otherwise teams will start lining up in the I and getting linemen, tight ends and FBs out on those LBs and blowing them off the ball.

[McNeese_beat]

Pretty long, but a very good read. Written by Cincinnati's DB coach, Kerry Coombs:

http://www.ohsfca.org/Defend_Spread.htm

It is a good read and it goes to the heart of what I was saying: you have to play with speed guys.

I think a defense that can defend the spread is one that:

1. Is very good up front. Your front four will assume a lot of responsibility because they are the only guys who will be in the box every play. The other 7 guys are going to be spread sideline-to-sideline and the length of the field.

2. It's a given that DBs have to be able to run, but your LBs have to be like DBs. You have to have an LB who can break down in a 1-on-1 situation against Armanti Edwards, Pat White or Tim Tebow and make a solid tackle. That means he has to be fast and physical, fast enough to catch him and physical enough to put a solid lick.

That doesn't mean the players have to be better than the players you have now. But instead of recruiting that big LB, you might recruit a smaller LB who runs better. That's why in 10 years somebody is going to win a national championship by lining up in a double-tight, power-I and smashing those little LBs everybody is going to be recruiting to stop the spread...

[CID1990]

You beat it just like you beat any other offense. You mind your assignments, and you play defense. They still only have 11 men on the field.

[proasu89]

of? communicable diseases, internet viruses, telephone scams, apathy and ignorance? Great question xcoolx







































Sorry, I've been up for 48 hours and I think I had better turn in:o

[blackfordpu]

Strong rush from your front four, a fast LB to shadow the QB and damn good corners.

[jonmac]

Kalm:

Since you brought up Michigan, I want to comment. In my opinion, the ASU/Mich. game was not a matter of superior athletes vs. inferior ones. Rather, it was a matter of strength vs. speed. Mich. chose to build its team with strong fellers & App chose speedy ones.

Speed kills.

I tried to read that high school coach's soliloquy (link posted on this thread) on how to stop the spread, but I could not finish it. And, I don't think defensive players on the college level will take the time to read it either. Even if they did, I don't think it would do them much good.

So, my answer on how to stop the spread, at least ASU's version of it, is this: get defensive players who are faster and quicker than the offensive teams. Good luck with that. A number of ASU's players are track stars - D. Jackson has won some SoCon track events. And, for the record, the defense must be faster and quicker b/c they must react to the offensive player who knows where he is going.

The days of big, fat boys playing football is over. Just ask Michigan. Another example of what team speed means would be the Ohio State/Florida bowl game last year. All those who picked Florida to win that game in a blowout, please stand up.


James, you are right, he won THE Southern Conference Track Meet. 200M Champion, very little prior track experience.
I agree, it takes speed to compete w/speed. But more importantly it's about playing assingment football, just like regular option. Defensive players have always been accused of not being as smart as offensive players. May be true, may not be. What is different about defensive players is that they are mostly trained to get after it hard and fast. To defend the spread attack I think the defense most be more controlled and know what the offense is all about. Does take some more smarts.

[08Dawg]

Speed on speed. Corners that can stay up with the receivers, I'd say good DEs and OLBs that can contain anything fast going east-west and DTs big enough to stop any trickeration up the middle.

[mvemjsunpx]

You beat it just like you beat any other offense. You mind your assignments, and you play defense. They still only have 11 men on the field.

Thanks, Captain Obvious. I think the question is what those assignments should be & what kind of players should be following them.

As to the topic of the thread:

That high school coach's article was more about defending a spread passing attack (i.e.: Purdue) than a spread option attack, so it's not entirely helpful.

I think a team needs to run a lot of contain plays to limit Edwards's mobility, particularly in passing situations. Have DE's contain the outside QB rushing lanes while someone spies the middle. In other words, the Michael Vick defense. Edwards has also had a tendency to throw interceptions at times & he isn't known as a great passer, so zone & particularly zone blitzes should be effective if you can contain the scramble at the same time. On designed runs, the strategy should be similar to stopping the flexbone. The defense needs to be aggressive & get peneration by both the D-Line & blitzing linebackers/safeties; take away the QB's running lanes. If you're going to bring a safety up to stop the run, make sure it isn't obvious pre-snap, because the speedy Mountaineer receivers can kill you. Kevin Richardson is a good running back, but he's not the most dangerous guy App State has. You can live with a straight handoff, particularly since they're in the Shotgun 100% of the time. Also, try to hit Edwards on as many plays as you can possibly get away with.

Now a couple examples of what not to do. In last year's National Championship game, UMass seemed content to blitz around the edge most of the time even though Edwards kept running up the middle to easily beat that defense. Also, Richmond violated the aggressiveness rule. They played scared most of the game & just sat back & waited for the Mountaineer ball-carriers to come to them. As a result, they were flat-footed and easily juked past & run past. Every time Edwards ran outside & then cut back straight ahead, the Spider D seemed clueless. Edwards is going to juke you whether it's in the backfield or 5 yards downfield, so you might as well force him to make his moves behind the line & have others ready to back you up & take away the cutback lanes.

In other words, play smart, quick, & most of all, aggressive.


Also, look at what other teams did defensively that worked: namely, James Madison.

[Jerbearasu]

In other words, play smart, quick, & most of all, aggressive.

I agree with you on many of your points but I think playing agressive is too risky. It gives up the big play way too often. Just talking about App in particular, the average drive lasts about 2 min max which is way too quick and that is usually on a 65-80 yard drive. At most that equates to be 9 plays which means you are giving up 7-9 yards per play.
To slow down the whole game, you also need to make App run more plays instead of the quick hits which means keeping them on the field for longer drives. By playing passive (you still must play quick) you can keep the play in front of you and make the sure tackle. It is when teams over-pursue that the speed kills teams.
As was mentioned earlier, if you have the D-linemen basically stand still and let App move towards them and use your linebackers to contain anything else (also using strategic blitzes with your LB's) you have a much better chance of forcing ASU into a mistake. All DB's need to remain in pass coverage as the play develops and then react as it progresses.
I personally think the LB's are the most important part of this equation because they are the ones that are having to make the plays. Keep it in front and utilize solid tackling by the LB's to slow down the attack...

[mvemjsunpx]

I agree with you on many of your points but I think playing agressive is too risky. It gives up the big play way too often. Just talking about App in particular, the average drive lasts about 2 min max which is way too quick and that is usually on a 65-80 yard drive. At most that equates to be 9 plays which means you are giving up 7-9 yards per play.
To slow down the whole game, you also need to make App run more plays instead of the quick hits which means keeping them on the field for longer drives. By playing passive (you still must play quick) you can keep the play in front of you and make the sure tackle. It is when teams over-pursue that the speed kills teams.
As was mentioned earlier, if you have the D-linemen basically stand still and let App move towards them and use your linebackers to contain anything else (also using strategic blitzes with your LB's) you have a much better chance of forcing ASU into a mistake. All DB's need to remain in pass coverage as the play develops and then react as it progresses.
I personally think the LB's are the most important part of this equation because they are the ones that are having to make the plays. Keep it in front and utilize solid tackling by the LB's to slow down the attack...

Your strategy seems to involve letting App State get 5 or 6 yards every play. That's pretty much what Montana did against Wofford for most of that game. Running offense is mindlessly easy when you can do that. The bend-but-don't-break defense is good against teams that like to throw a lot to talented receivers that you can't cover well, but option teams are usually just as good in the redzone as they are between the 20's, if not better. You don't want their offense on the field a long time because you're defense will get tired & then you can't stop anything. Obviously you don't want to give up the big play, either, but it's worth the risk, particularly if you're defense can play smart as well as aggressive. One thing the ESPN announcers commented on yesterday was that Richmond's pass-rushers seemed so afraid of Edwards breaking it on them that they missed obvious sack opportunities. Against an offense like this, every stop-for-loss is huge so you have to take advantage. You want 3rd. & longs

My concept of aggressiveness wasn't defenders all running after the ball-carrier in a tunnel vision kind-of-fashion. They still need to be aware & not leave their lane assignments. The guys going after Edwards need to be confident that someone will back them up if they miss.

My basic general focus would be to take away Edwards's rushing as much as possible & make Richardson & Edwards's arm beat you. They're capable of doing that, but not as easily. Given the mediocrity of App State's defense, though, it should be enough, particularly if you force some turnovers.

[KiddBrewer]

quick answer to the question in the thread topic......


if ran properly, you dont.

[McNeese_beat]

quick answer to the question in the thread topic......


if ran properly, you dont.

I don't agree at all. Every scheme has a scheme to counter it.

I think the spread, in the big picture, is in a point where the innovation is ahead of the reaction. We are just getting to the point where defensive coaches are figuring out what personnel packages need to be on the field to match up best with a spread team and they are now starting to recruit with that personnel in mind.

When Urban Meyer, Rich Rodriguez and Mack Brown started running this stuff — whether it's the Mack Brown spread or the Urban Meyer "Pistol" or whatever version — few if any defenses were equipped to match up to it. Perhaps some schools were — particularly a speed team like a Miami — but none specifically by design.

Now you have teams everywhere looking for linebackers who can play effectively in space, even defensive ends who can make plays in space. Linebackers will get smaller and faster. You'll see high school DBs get bulked up and made into 6-foot, 200-pound linebackers who run 4.5 40s and won't get overwhelmed when a quick QB fakes the dive then heads for the edge on a cut/read play.

I think a good example of defenses not being equipped to deal with the spread is Michigan. The Spread has not spread to the Big 10 and Michigan was still recruiting players to defend Big 10 football — linebackers who can take on blocks and make plays in the gap. D-linemen who demand double teams, etc. None of that was useful when App State came to town. The linebackers don't even get blocked sometimes. Instead, they are getting beat to the edge. Linemen don't get double teamed. The seams are created by the LBs and safeties getting spread out so much that natural running lanes are created without having enough blockers to double most linemen.

I would be five years from now Michigan will be better prepared to defend the spread. I don't think App wants to try its look against SEC teams that have for years been playing against teams that play the spread and other schemes that emphasize speed mismatches on the perimeter.

Once that happens, weak-in, weak-out the QB isn't getting to the edge and the defense won't have to commit more people to stop the running game of the spread, which opens the passing game. If the running game isn't working as well and you go to more drop back passing, well, the defense has even more speed on the field to cover than it used to, so conventional passing games would be a problem.

What the reaction will have to be to all these speed players on defense is power football...teams will go back to recruiting more tight ends and fullbacks and running at people with some play action over the top thrown in...

but that's getting way ahead of the game, isn't it? Right now, the spread is just now coming into vogue and I'm already thinking about what happens when it declines!

[SirApp]

Depends on the formation as well...... Assignment football is definitely the key. No D-Line tricks, such as stunting...just straight rushing the QB, clogging the middle. OLB's need to be quick, so they can pursue inside and out. DB's should play cover, so they aren't tricked by WR running streaks and can pay attention to where the ball is. Double spy would be good in 2 or 3 WR formations. In my experiences, I haven't seen very many Nickel or Dime defensive formations when facing the spread, although I don't think the Dime would be very effective. Mixing up blitz packages could help as well. It's all about stopping the run, once you have that accomplished, most mobile QB's aren't very effective.

Also, as mentioned, a good running offense that churns away at the clock to keep the opposing offense of the field.

As with all things, some great defensive genius will come up with a way to completely shut the spread offense down. It is a fairly new offensive system after all.

[SirApp]

Oh yea, and I support the post that was above my original. All about stopping the edge of the line of scrimmage.

[dungeonjoe]

just wondering anybody got any ideas

quit eating so much.



sorry, couldn't resist.

[Drblankstare]

you stop the spread the same way you stop any dominating offense. dont let them have the ball. your offense has to control the clock and score.