D2 wins are no longer non-counters

[robsnotes4u]

Sam Herder has an article coming out today discussing this very thing most of us preached for years. If someone will post the article when it drops it will be great.

This only means they won’t automatically throw out a D2 win. I would assume the consensus of the committee will remain the same, as not everyone pads their record with a D2 win. They try to keep the language as vague as possible.

This information should be talked about by coaches. Idaho replaced a D2 game with a FCS this year to help get in the playoffs

Not a good direction to go. This could lead to less OOC FCS games.


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[atthewbon]

https://herosports.com/fcs-playoffs-non-d1-wins-bzbz/

Here is the link to the article.

[dbackjon]

I was using a Montana brain when I first posted

[robsnotes4u]

Why is it not a good direction to go?

Shouldn't it lead to more OOC FCS Games?

I t will lead to more D2 games, less OOC FCS

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[Preferred Walk-On]

I t will lead to more D2 games, less OOC FCS

While this is likely true, there has been discussion on this forum about how top D2 teams are better than half the FCS, and in some cases, might even be able to be ranked top 25 in the FCS.

The teams that will increase D2 scheduling are likely going to be the ones where discussing a D2 game as a counter/non-counter will be a moot point. Also, since FCS playoff selection occurs at the end of the D2 regular season and one week into their playoffs, it seems likely that there will be a pretty good idea about any FCS vs. D2 game of any significance.

Just like it is discussed on this forum what constitutes a good/bad FBS win/loss, I am not sure why this doesn't/shouldn't apply to a good/bad D2 win/loss.

[Professor Chaos]

This is nothing new in terms of how the committee treats D2 games (or at least how the NCAA championship handbook says they're supposed to treat D2 games). It says that less than 6 (used to be 7) D1 wins may place a team in jeopardy of not making the field and that teams that play a full D1 schedule may be given more consideration for playoff selection and it's been worded that way for years.

See this post from 2019 which says the exact same thing: https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?238904

[clenz]

This is nothing new in terms of how the committee treats D2 games (or at least how the NCAA championship handbook says they're supposed to treat D2 games). It says that less than 6 (used to be 7) D1 wins may place a team in jeopardy of not making the field and that teams that play a full D1 schedule may be given more consideration for playoff selection and it's been worded that way for years.

See this post from 2019 which says the exact same thing: https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?238904
Thank you for brining this back.

I was pretty sure we had this as a known thing for years and had many conversations about the changing in the language to "may" and "half counters" and all of that other ****. I didn't realize this was still a question.

[FUBeAR]

Montana/BSC Propaganda...nothing more.

"A number of playoff-potential teams have non-D1 wins on their resumes: ...No. 16 Montana...and No. 22 Weber State (rankings via the Oct. 9 media poll)."

"Non-Counter MisconceptionAre non-D1 wins thrown out the window and don’t count on postseason resumes?
That’s been the general thought for fans, media, and even some athletic departments for years."

FUBeAR noticed that HeroSports/Sam Herder didn't publish this non-news in 2021 when the SoCon's Mercer was sitting squarely on the bubble with a non-D1 win on their record, after just barely losing the SoCon's Autobid by an eyelash in the final regular season game.

[robsnotes4u]

This is nothing new in terms of how the committee treats D2 games (or at least how the NCAA championship handbook says they're supposed to treat D2 games). It says that less than 6 (used to be 7) D1 wins may place a team in jeopardy of not making the field and that teams that play a full D1 schedule may be given more consideration for playoff selection and it's been worded that way for years.

See this post from 2019 which says the exact same thing: https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?238904

As the article states, this isn't common knowledge by coaches, ADs and the media.

Around 2014 Troy Dannen and I had this discussion, and at that time they were non-counters. I had similar conversations with Gene Taylor over lunch when I supplied him and the coaches vehicles.


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[MSUBobcat]

How many people were under the impression that they were non-counters?? I believe that the selection committee absolutely factors them in to SOS, just as they do with a Pioneer team, for example. Were there really people out there thinking that if Team A plays a virtually identical schedule to team B, except Team A played, say... 2x defending champ Ferris State while Team B played Valpo, that Team B is getting in because VALPO is a DIINO (DI in name only) and Ferris State is DII, even though Ferris would curb stomp Valpo? While the writer of the Vandal press release clearly doesn't understand, I didn't necessarily read into it that the AD and Coach Eck didn't understand. I read it to mean they understand that, in general, an all-DI schedule probably helps them solidify a playoff berth more than having a DII game so their policy going forward is to schedule only DI games whenever possible. MSU has also made that move over the years. The Bobcats played down from 2006-2016, every year. We haven't played one since, and there's none on the schedule thru 2025 (last year with OOC games included on the website).

[Catamount87]

Montana/BSC Propaganda...nothing more.

"A number of playoff-potential teams have non-D1 wins on their resumes: ...No. 16 Montana...and No. 22 Weber State (rankings via the Oct. 9 media poll)."

"Non-Counter MisconceptionAre non-D1 wins thrown out the window and don’t count on postseason resumes?
That’s been the general thought for fans, media, and even some athletic departments for years."

FUBeAR noticed that HeroSports/Sam Herder didn't publish this non-news in 2021 when the SoCon's Mercer was sitting squarely on the bubble with a non-D1 win on their record, after just barely losing the SoCon's Autobid by an eyelash in the final regular season game.

It's a 'bug' that has been more than a couple of SoCon teams over the years. One could argue it's a good reason why we don't see Mars Hill, Catawba, Lenoir-Rhyne, Carson-Newman, and a handful of other regional D2 teams on SoCon schedules on the regular now.

[wapiti]

I think Sam is a fan of the Griz and is doing what he can to get them in the playoffs, as they may need that win to get in.

[MSUBobcat]

As the article states, this isn't common knowledge by coaches, ADs and the media.

Around 2014 Troy Dannen and I had this discussion, and at that time they were non-counters. I had similar conversations with Gene Taylor over lunch when I supplied him and the coaches vehicles.


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How many coaches and AD's did Sam Herder poll/interview prior to stating that "the GENERAL THOUGHT" (nice ambiguous term) is that they are non-counters? Cuz I've "generally thought" the committee looks at not just who you played, but how you did in those games. With as large as the CAA (and Big Sky to a lesser degree) are, hypothetically, do you think they automatically take an 8-3 CAA team that played 2 NEC and 1 PFL and avoided all the tough CAA teams over a 7-4 CAA team that challenged themselves with an IVY, SoCon and MVFC team and also had to run a gauntlet of 4 top CAA teams? I would certainly hope they take a look under the hood rather than look at W-L alone.

[uofmman1122]

I think Sam is a fan of the Griz and is doing what he can to get them in the playoffs, as they may need that win to get in.
This is a fantastic joke, because there's no way anyone would ever say this if they truly meant it. I refuse to believe anyone is that out of touch. lol

[MSUBobcat]

I think Sam is a fan of the Griz and is doing what he can to get them in the playoffs, as they may need that win to get in.

Not necessary. The Griz are IN as soon as the "sealed" bid is received. xsmiley_wix

[uofmman1122]

Sam Herder has an article coming out today discussing this very thing most of us preached for years. If someone will post the article when it drops it will be great.

This only means they won’t automatically throw out a D2 win. I would assume the consensus of the committee will remain the same, as not everyone pads their record with a D2 win. They try to keep the language as vague as possible.

This information should be talked about by coaches. Idaho replaced a D2 game with a FCS this year to help get in the playoffs

Not a good direction to go. This could lead to less OOC FCS games.
What direction? This is how it's always been. Nothing has changed this year regarding playoff selection criteria simply because you and Sam were wrong to assume otherwise.

[dbackjon]

I t will lead to more D2 games, less OOC FCS

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You are right - misread the title - thought it was going the other direction.

[FUBeAR]

I think Sam is a fan of the Griz and is doing what he can to get them in the playoffs, as they may need that win to get in.
* Sam and HeroSports, like almost all of us, are fans of Moe Money.

* In Sam's / HeroSports case, as he / they makes his / their living as an online journalist / media outlet, that means he / they are BIG FANS of clicks

* More Clicks = More $'s

* Montana clicks > NotMontana clicks

* MontanaInThePlayoffs = +1 to +5 games or up to +7 weeks + PostPlayoffInterest clicks > MontanaNotInThePlayoffs clicks

* MontanaInThePlayoffs = More Clicks = More $'s for Sam / Hero Sports


Hence...seems like a good time for HeroSports/Sam Herder to remind everyone (including ATHLETICS DEPARTMENTS, y'know...where Playoff Selection Committe Members 'live') that a non-D1 win ain't so bad after all ... even though ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CHANGED. The only reason for this article is that it looks like Montana and Weber could end up being 'bubble Teams" and the desire by FCS media members to shape the FCS Playoff Field to their benefit...however they can do that...

...which is also why FUBeAR did not at all welcome the news this week that the STATS Perform Media Poll is going to be part of the "Official Selection Process" - sure the Coaches Poll sux, but the Media Poll sux-.01 ... Herder suggested in his podcast that it should be a "Select Committee" of Media Members instead of the Poll - Of course including himself.


Ummm....NO - Adopt the old BCS Model - A PANEL OF KNOWLEDGEABLE FOOTBALL PEOPLE with no dogs in the fight that meet weekly from 1/2 the season on and show their work....

GRUMBLE....GRUMBLE...

#DefundTheCommittee

[uofmman1122]

I love all the dumb conspiracies about us always making the playoffs, as if we haven't been left out every single time we've gone 7-4 with a D2 win.

[MSUBobcat]

* Sam and HeroSports, like almost all of us, are fans of Moe Money.

* In Sam's / HeroSports case, as he / they makes his / their living as an online journalist / media outlet, that means he / they are BIG FANS of clicks

* More Clicks = More $'s

* Montana clicks > NotMontana clicks

* MontanaInThePlayoffs = +1 to +5 games or up to +7 weeks + PostPlayoffInterest clicks > MontanaNotInThePlayoffs clicks

* MontanaInThePlayoffs = More Clicks = More $'s for Sam / Hero Sports


Hence...seems like a good time for HeroSports/Sam Herder to remind everyone (including ATHLETICS DEPARTMENTS, y'know...where Playoff Selection Committe Members 'live') that a non-D1 win ain't so bad after all ... even though ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CHANGED. The only reason for this article is that it looks like Montana and Weber could end up being 'bubble Teams" and the desire by FCS media members to shape the FCS Playoff Field to their benefit...however they can do that...

...which is also why FUBeAR did not at all welcome the news this week that the STATS Perform Media Poll is going to be part of the "Official Selection Process" - sure the Coaches Poll sux, but the Media Poll sux-.01 ... Herder suggested in his podcast that it should be a "Select Committee" of Media Members instead of the Poll - Of course including himself.


Ummm....NO - Adopt the old BCS Model - A PANEL OF KNOWLEDGEABLE FOOTBALL PEOPLE with no dogs in the fight that meet weekly from 1/2 the season on and show their work....

GRUMBLE....GRUMBLE...

#DefundTheCommittee

If it makes you feel better (and I know it won't cuz tilting at windmills is your schtick), Weber will drop 2 of 3 to Davis, @EWU and Idaho to remove themselves from the bubble... #BookIt

[MSUBobcat]

I love all the dumb conspiracies about us always making the playoffs, as if we haven't been left out every single time we've gone 7-4 with a D2 win.

AHEM!!!! I believe as a hated rival, I have carte blanche to utilize any and all conspiracies that may float into my drug and/or alcohol addled brain....

[ysubigred]

I love all the dumb conspiracies about us always making the playoffs, as if we haven't been left out every single time we've gone 7-4 with a D2 win.Whaaaaa... YSU has been left out @ 7-4, and all D1 wins playing in a tougher conference.. bet you can't claim that..

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[uofmman1122]

Whaaaaa... YSU has been left out @ 7-4, and all D1 wins playing in a tougher conference.. bet you can't claim that..

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We had a better resume than you guys did last year. Cry about it (more than you apparently have been since the end of last year).

[ysubigred]

We had a better resume than you guys did last year. Cry about it (more than you apparently have been since the end of last year).Wrong

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[uofmman1122]

Wrong

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Not according to everyone that mattered lol

[ysubigred]

Not according to everyone that mattered lolWho matters lol

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[MSUBobcat]

We had a better resume than you guys did last year. Cry about it (more than you apparently have been since the end of last year).


Wrong

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Not according to everyone that mattered lol

Gentlemen, GENTLEMEN, please!!!! Let's not fight! Neither one of you deserved to be in the playoffs last year... xsmiley_wix

[ysubigred]

Gentlemen, GENTLEMEN, please!!!! Let's not fight! Neither one of you deserved to be in the playoffs last year... xsmiley_wixThis. ^^ Need more auto bids for the blind center and Jerry's kids..

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[MSUBobcat]

This. ^^ Need more auto bids for the blind center and Jerry's kids..

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Be patient... only a matter of time until CAA splits in 2 and you'll have your wish! xwhistlex

[ysubigred]

Be patient... only a matter of time until CAA splits in 2 and you'll have your wish! xwhistlexYup the darlings of the NE..

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[ST_Lawson]

...as not everyone pads their record with a D2 win.

Can we pad our record with a D2 to get A win...like...a single win? Assuming we pick the right D2, that is...MN-Mankato, Ferris State, Grand Valley State...they'd probably crush us.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Whaaaaa... YSU has been left out @ 7-4, and all D1 wins playing in a tougher conference.. bet you can't claim that..

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Weren't you once left out at 8-4 ?

[ysubigred]

Weren't you once left out at 8-4 ?And 8-3 several times

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[Redbird 4th & short]

Whaaaaa... YSU has been left out @ 7-4, and all D1 wins playing in a tougher conference.. bet you can't claim that..

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And 8-3 several times

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8-3 .. what years ?

[ysubigred]

8-3 .. what years ?2001, 2005. 2013 was the 8-4 season, 2012 beat ACC Pitt 31-17 missed playoffs at 7-4

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[bonarae]

Meanwhile... is this another sign that FCS may integrate with D-II soon in football? xchinscratchx

[MR. CHICKEN]

2001, 2005. 2013 was the 8-4 season, 2012 beat ACC Pitt 31-17 missed playoffs at 7-4

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.....WERE THERE......D-II's.......ON THOSE SKEDS?.......xconfusedx.......AWK?

ps.......THEY ALSO TOOK LESS TEAMS......IN SOME UH THOSE YEARS......BRAWK!

[MR. CHICKEN]

Meanwhile... is this another sign that FCS may integrate with D-II soon in football? xchinscratchx

..........................xsmhx.......!

[ysubigred]

.....WERE THERE......D-II's.......ON THOSE SKEDS?.......xconfusedx.......AWK?

ps.......THEY ALSO TOOK LESS TEAMS......IN SOME UH THOSE YEARS......BRAWK!No DII's just piss poor conference play/losses..

The moral of the story is to win games in the conference, especially at the end of the season.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231012/960d20c07f2361ffc9a1e52353880cd0.jpg

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[ST_Lawson]

.....WERE THERE......D-II's.......ON THOSE SKEDS?.......xconfusedx.......AWK?

ps.......THEY ALSO TOOK LESS TEAMS......IN SOME UH THOSE YEARS......BRAWK!

Here's the schedule: https://www.espn.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/2754/season/2013

The schedule started off (mostly) easy and got harder as the season progressed. Beat non-scholarship Dayton and Morehead State, lost their FBS game at Michigan State and beat Duquesne. Then the conference season was front-loaded with the easier teams: SIU, INSU, ILSU, WIU, USD...so they were 8-1 at that point. Finished up the schedule at Northern Iowa (a close loss), then games against both of the XDSU's, which they lost both of, to finish at 8-4 overall.

2013 was also a year that the MVFC essentially cannibalized itself and only NDSU and SDSU made the playoffs. YSU, SDSU, SIU, and MSU all finished 5-3 in the conference. SDSU had a overall record of 9-5, so they got in. SIU at 7-5 and YSU at 8-4 did not (and MSU had a 5-7 overall record). That year, MVFC teams "missed" one other team in the conference, with YSU not having to play eventual 5-7 Missouri State.

Idk who all were the "bubble" teams that just barely made it in over YSU, but as an example, Southern Utah also finished 8-4 overall and 5-3 in the Big Sky. They did have a win over G5 Southern Alabama, but also had a win over DII Fort Lewis. In the Big Sky, SUU didn't have to play eventual 10-2 Montana, 6-6 Cal Poly, or 3-8 North Dakota.

I think that overall YSU and SUU were probably viewed as about equal in terms of overall schedule, but because YSU had finished the season with three straight losses, SUU got the opportunity to get steamrolled by Sam Houston State, rather than the Penguins. 2013 was also (I think) the first year of the 24-team playoff bracket we currently use.

[ysubigred]

Here's the schedule: https://www.espn.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/2754/season/2013

The schedule started off (mostly) easy and got harder as the season progressed. Beat non-scholarship Dayton and Morehead State, lost their FBS game at Michigan State and beat Duquesne. Then the conference season was front-loaded with the easier teams: SIU, INSU, ILSU, WIU, USD...so they were 8-1 at that point. Finished up the schedule at Northern Iowa (a close loss), then games against both of the XDSU's, which they lost both of, to finish at 8-4 overall.

2013 was also a year that the MVFC essentially cannibalized itself and only NDSU and SDSU made the playoffs. YSU, SDSU, SIU, and MSU all finished 5-3 in the conference. SDSU had a overall record of 9-5, so they got in. SIU at 7-5 and YSU at 8-4 did not (and MSU had a 5-7 overall record). That year, MVFC teams "missed" one other team in the conference, with YSU not having to play eventual 5-7 Missouri State.

Idk who all were the "bubble" teams that just barely made it in over YSU, but as an example, Southern Utah also finished 8-4 overall and 5-3 in the Big Sky. They did have a win over G5 Southern Alabama, but also had a win over DII Fort Lewis. In the Big Sky, SUU didn't have to play eventual 10-2 Montana, 6-6 Cal Poly, or 3-8 North Dakota.

I think that overall YSU and SUU were probably viewed as about equal in terms of overall schedule, but because YSU had finished the season with three straight losses, SUU got the opportunity to get steamrolled by Sam Houston State, rather than the Penguins. 2013 was also (I think) the first year of the 24-team playoff bracket we currently use.Yup.. this is homerism.. I believe YSU doesn't get in on the questionable bubble because once in the playoffs, the Guins expose how weak these selections are, especially the auto bids.
YSU does well at knocking out the darlings of the FCS in the playoffs. xtwocentsx

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[clenz]

.....WERE THERE......D-II's.......ON THOSE SKEDS?.......xconfusedx.......AWK?

ps.......THEY ALSO TOOK LESS TEAMS......IN SOME UH THOSE YEARS......BRAWK!
Those were all 16 year teams, but YSU fans want to leave that piece out when they talk about getting left out.

[ysubigred]

Those were all 16 year teams, but YSU fans want to leave that piece out when they talk about getting left out.At least we don't choke away our chances once in.. how many rings does puni have.. I thought so..

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[penguinpower]

This is a joke. The mask is off of the Playoff Selection.Committee. The only rule they had is no longer a rule. They are using the Stats FCS poll and the coaches poll too. Problem is that the Stats poll has Zero qualifications other than homers in specific media markets and otherwise the utterly clueless. The coaches don't actually vote in the polls, but rather vote on records.

This is an utter joke. Every FCS team serious about football should join weak conferences (like the CAA or the Patriot League (how do you like that spitting in your eye Beta Male?) And win the conference with zero competition to get into the playoffs uncontested and healthy.

Playoff selection: It's a ****ing joke and always has been

[FUBeAR]

This is a joke. The mask is off of the Playoff Selection.Committee. The only rule they had is no longer a rule. They are using the Stats FCS poll and the coaches poll too. Problem is that the Stats poll has Zero qualifications other than homers in specific media markets and otherwise the utterly clueless. The coaches don't actually vote in the polls, but rather vote on records.

This is an utter joke. Every FCS team serious about football should join weak conferences (like the CAA or the Patriot League (how do you like that spitting in your eye Beta Male?) And win the conference with zero competition to get into the playoffs uncontested and healthy.

Playoff selection: It's a ****ing joke and always has been
Wise words

#DefundTheCommittee

[MR. CHICKEN]

[QUOTE=penguinpower;3149930]This is a joke. The mask is off of the Playoff Selection.Committee. The only rule they had is no longer a rule. They are using the Stats FCS poll and the coaches poll too. Problem is that the Stats poll has Zero qualifications other than homers in specific media markets and otherwise the utterly clueless. The coaches don't actually vote in the polls, but rather vote on records.

This is an utter joke. Every FCS team serious about football should join weak conferences (like the CAA or the Patriot League (how do you like that spitting in your eye Beta Male?) And win the conference with zero competition to get into the playoffs uncontested and healthy.


33084



....EVERAH CONFERENCE.....HAS IT'S......MISSOURI STATE/WESTERN ILLINOIS/INDIANA STATE................BRAWK!

[ST_Lawson]

Every FCS team serious about football should join weak conferences...And win the conference with zero competition to get into the playoffs uncontested and healthy.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/aa/51/98/aa5198dd81d5d923c2dedd310e3bc1c2.gif

[robsnotes4u]

This is a joke. The mask is off of the Playoff Selection.Committee. The only rule they had is no longer a rule. They are using the Stats FCS poll and the coaches poll too. Problem is that the Stats poll has Zero qualifications other than homers in specific media markets and otherwise the utterly clueless. The coaches don't actually vote in the polls, but rather vote on records.

This is an utter joke. Every FCS team serious about football should join weak conferences (like the CAA or the Patriot League (how do you like that spitting in your eye Beta Male?) And win the conference with zero competition to get into the playoffs uncontested and healthy.

Playoff selection: It's a ****ing joke and always has been

The issue is the lack of credibility. Anyone who is in the committee should post their poll, and decisions. In fact, all teams should demand notes, like a court reporter would take, of the conversations and decisions. Enough of the secret society BS.

If a persons poll is used to create the Stats and Coach’s poll, that person’s poll should be available to the public as well.

Words like “may” should not be used in the wording of criteria. Criteria should be clear and concise. Face it, most don't watch the games.

These decisions affect more than just winning a championship. They affect recruiting, coaches, Athletic Directors, players and money for the school


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