For Fans Who Want To Go To FBS....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Mike Huguenin Ranks The Bowls

http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1144&CID=746757

Teams are most likely to enter the Sun Belch or the MAC. Here are the bowls they're in, and ranked (out of 32) by desirability by Mike:


19. GMAC Bowl, Jan. 6, Bowling Green (MAC) vs. Tulsa.
Our rule of thumb: As long as there is the possibility of a ton of offense, it's worth watching. These teams average a combined 959.4 yards of offense per game.

25. Motor City Bowl, Dec. 26, Central Michigan (MAC) vs. Purdue.
These teams played Sept. 15, and the Boilermakers won by 23. Why the rematch?

29. International Bowl, Jan. 5, Ball State (MAC) vs. Rutgers.
Ball State has a good quarterback (Nate Davis). Rutgers has a good tailback (Ray Rice). Other than that …

32. New Orleans Bowl, Dec. 21, Florida Atlantic (Sun Belt) vs. Memphis.
We'd rather spend time with our mother-in-law than watch this.

Just wanted to be very, very clear to any school who's thinking of moving over to the Sun Belch or MAC: THIS is what you're wading into.

[TexasTerror]

Why does C-USA not get any crap from anyone? They have been hurting since they lost those schools to the Big East and in fact, the Sun Belt has their number in head to head games the last two years, if not longer...

[LehighFan11]

plus why would you want to move up to a divison that doesnt have a playoff!!!!!

[mvemjsunpx]

plus why would you want to move up to a divison that doesnt have a playoff!!!!!

That's the ultimate reason I don't want Montana to move up to FBS. I'm pretty sure the Griz would succeed, though probably not at the level of Boise State (though BSU was horrible their first few years in I-A).


It comes down to 2 things:

1. Fight your way through the Big Sky & FCS for a chance to play in the National Championship game.

or

2. Fight your way through the WAC for a chance to play in the Boise Bowl.


Take your pick...

[jonmac]

Man, you mean would could actually play on the blue turf if we move up? Count me in, that would be awesome.xsmiley_wix

[aust42]

Why does C-USA not get any crap from anyone? They have been hurting since they lost those schools to the Big East and in fact, the Sun Belt has their number in head to head games the last two years, if not longer...

CUSA was 5-2 vs the Sunbelch this year and 4-4 in 2006. At least CUSA had 6 teams (12 in the Conf) with winning records this year and they all made Bowl games. The Sunbelch had 3 Bowl eligible teams but only the Conf Champ was picked to play in the *****tiest Bowl game of them all. Only 3 out of 13 schools in the MAC had winning records and only 2 of those made a Bowl game. If you believe in the Saragin ratings the latest Conf rankings are 10) MAC, 11) CAA, 12) Sun Belch, 13) CUSA, 14) Southern, 15 Gateway. All within a couple points of each other.

As a Delaware fan, I would not want to see my team move up unless it's a BCS Conference. Even then I'd almost rather stay 1AA. The Sun Belch and MAC really are not any better than the top three 1AA Conferences. CUSA's top teams are probably a notch above our top 1AA Conferences teams but the bottom half are about equal. IMO.

[aust42]

Man, you mean would could actually play on the blue turf if we move up? Count me in, that would be awesome.xsmiley_wix

I refuse to watch a Boise game b/c of that annoying turf. Blue turf? WTF is that? xeyebrowx If I'm being recruited by them, that would be a huge red flag to me.

[appfan2008]

That's the ultimate reason I don't want Montana to move up to FBS. I'm pretty sure the Griz would succeed, though probably not at the level of Boise State (though BSU was horrible their first few years in I-A).


It comes down to 2 things:

1. Fight your way through the Big Sky & FCS for a chance to play in the National Championship game.

or

2. Fight your way through the WAC for a chance to play in the Boise Bowl

Take your pick...
I think the choice is obvious

[RobsPics]

Don't sell FCS short!

It's not "moving up" to FBS.

It's "jumping over" to FBS.

[WCU_FL_Alum]

I'd have to say this year's C-USA Champ.....Central Florida is more than a just a notch above above FCS schools. They lost to Texas by two this year after leading into the last minute. Yes, I understand App beat Michigan but overall I think the top CUSA team are alot more than a "notch" above most FCS teams.

[citdog]

ok GSU fans. why you no posty here?

[ButlerGSU]

Where does he rank the I-AA playoff games at?

In years past the 'worst' bowls got higher TV rantings than the playoffs did. Not bashing the playoffs because I love them but if you want to compare lower bowls then be fair and compare them to what our 'bowls' are.

[citdog]

Where does he rank the I-AA playoff games at?

In years past the 'worst' bowls got higher TV rantings than the playoffs did. Not bashing the playoffs because I love them but if you want to compare lower bowls then be fair and compare them to what our 'bowls' are.



you will be a joke at the FBS level, and as i already think that your school in Pigs Ass, Ga is a joke it will be no change in my opinion but the rest of the Nation will share it.

[yosef1969]

I think the choice is obvious

Yep, make the move to FBS if the opportunity presents itself! I know this is an unpopular view, on this forum in particular, but each one of the bowls mentioned will draw better TV rating and payout more than the playoffs and championship game. Not to mention you have the opportunity to play old rivals on a level playing field and possibly at home.

I love the playoff system but moves need to made to protect the subdivision and I just don't think they are coming. Regionalization, non-scholarship, non playoff participation leagues, and rewarding of weak scheduling are diluting a very good product. The NCAA is more concerned about protecting FBS than the survival of FCS. I for one would like for my program to be looked after.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Old rivals? What are you talking about? All of GSU's "old rivals" they're playing right now: ASU, Chatty, The Citadel...

If you think the "GMAC Bowl" is more than throwing the MAC a bone and instead really consists of "taking care of their FBS programs" is delusional. The occasional payout from the GMAC Bowl will never pay for the expenses that will need to be incurred by moving to FBS. The sales pitch for FBS always involves the Orange and Rose Bowls and bajillions of dollars, but the lemons you end up with are the GMAC and Boise Bowls and peanuts in payout.

Add to this you forfeit your right at a true national championship, and any realistic chance of competing for a BC$ title. If you want to move over to BCS, you're *really* getting AT BEST the GMAC Bowl.

[ButlerGSU]

Old rivals? What are you talking about? All of GSU's "old rivals" they're playing right now: ASU, Chatty, The Citadel...

If you think the "GMAC Bowl" is more than throwing the MAC a bone and instead really consists of "taking care of their FBS programs" is delusional. The occasional payout from the GMAC Bowl will never pay for the expenses that will need to be incurred by moving to FBS. The sales pitch for FBS always involves the Orange and Rose Bowls and bajillions of dollars, but the lemons you end up with are the GMAC and Boise Bowls and peanuts in payout.

Add to this you forfeit your right at a true national championship, and any realistic chance of competing for a BC$ title. If you want to move over to BCS, you're *really* getting AT BEST the GMAC Bowl.

Marshall, Troy, Middle TN, these are just some of the schools GSU has tradition with...

[ButlerGSU]

you will be a joke at the FBS level, and as i already think that your school in Pigs Ass, Ga is a joke it will be no change in my opinion but the rest of the Nation will share it.

Great talking with you as always Citdog! Thanks for the insight and have a Merry Christmas!

[GGASU]

I'd have to say this year's C-USA Champ.....Central Florida is more than a just a notch above above FCS schools. They lost to Texas by two this year after leading into the last minute. Yes, I understand App beat Michigan but overall I think the top CUSA team are alot more than a "notch" above most FCS teams.

Sagarin rankings for conferences...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbc07.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Conference USA is below the Colonial and Sun Belt...Take Western out of the Southern Conference and we would have ranked above them as well.

[Catsfan2]

Well CUSA and the MAC do have a bit of a national presence as well as schools people outside of football fans have actually heard of. I could see where a school would consider CUSA or the MAC given the opportunity, but the Sun Belt does look like a desperate last chance to grasp at FBS straws.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Marshall, Troy, Middle TN, these are just some of the schools GSU has tradition with...

The biggest games of these "rivalries" for GSU have their basis in the playoffs:

MTSU:
12-07-1985 28-21 Division I-AA Quarterfinal Playoff Game
12-02-1989 45-3 Division I-AA Quarterfinal Playoff Game

Troy:
11-25-1995 24-21 Division I-AA 1st Round Playoff Game

As for Marshall, GSU only played six games against them when they were in the SoCon. Then only way this "rivalry" gets back together is if the Eagles were to go to C-USA: at the expense of ASU, Furman, The Citadel...

I find it really funny that one of the reasons run up the flagpole to switch to FBS is "tradition": when in reality the teams GSU have the biggest rivalries with are FCS and in the SoCon, and any future "rivalries" with FBS schools were so clearly linked to the playoff chase and the SoCon title race.

Exactly how do you market at "classic" matchup between MTSU and GSU? You'd have to go back to the old playoff hunts: which, ironically, they couldn't participate in anymore. You could spin a game with Marshall as "GSU always hated Marshall from their SoCon days", but MTSU and Troy just don't come close to Furman.

[citdog]

Great talking with you as always Citdog! Thanks for the insight and have a Merry Christmas!


thanks Butler! you have a happy Channakuh!

[McNeese_beat]

That's the ultimate reason I don't want Montana to move up to FBS. I'm pretty sure the Griz would succeed, though probably not at the level of Boise State (though BSU was horrible their first few years in I-A).


It comes down to 2 things:

1. Fight your way through the Big Sky & FCS for a chance to play in the National Championship game.

or

2. Fight your way through the WAC for a chance to play in the Boise Bowl.


Take your pick...

I think what some would pound their chest about is the money the members of the WAC are raking in lately by association to Boise State and Hawaii. That's two straight BCS bowls for the WAC and everybody in the league gets a cut.

They would argue that that's the benefit of being at their level. There is zero access to that money in the FCS. The counter is, to what cost do you get the money if you are a Louisiana Tech relegated to second-tier status in what is nothing more than another Sun Belt once you get below the top 2 or maybe 3 teams? And how unlikely are you to get the money consistently enough to make it worth it? Will the WAC consistently produce BCS bowl teams or will they slip back into obscurity?

And I doubt if the Sun Belt or the MAC EVER get into those games.

[93BlueHen]

the lemons you end up with are the GMAC and Boise Bowls and peanuts in payout

Let's not disrepect such prestigious bowls by butchering their names. The second one should be properly referred to as the Roady's Truck Stops Humanitarian Bowl:

http://www.roadyshumanitarianbowl.com/

I'm sure Georgia Tech and Fresno State are beaming with pride at being selected for this most exciting event.xlolx

[CID1990]

I don't understand the allure of a move from FCS to FBS in terms of schedule and post season.

Realistically speaking, GSU would do no better than C-USA or the Sun Belt. Once there, you get to play pretty much nothing but mid-major teams, and an occasional whooping from teams from a BCS conference (for less money than FCS teams get for playing them, I might add).

Then, at the end of the season, after you get done playing the Kent States, Troys, and WKUs of the world, assuming you have won most of your games, you get an invite to go play in the Toilet Bowl on some Wednesday sometime around December 21. Very exciting.

Is anyone delusional enough to think it would be ANY better than that?

Also, GSU or even ASU would never get home games with teams from BCS conferences. The Georgias, Floridas, Clemsons, UNCs and UVAs will not play at Paulson or Kidd Brewer. Just ask East Carolina when was the last time a decent ACC or SEC team came and played them in Greenville? Plus, if you are ANY good at all, those teams will be reluctant to play you because you will actually have a chance of beating them. A loss to a mid-major is just as bad to those schools as a loss to FCS.

I know that the move looks good in many respects, but there will be a lot of folks in Statesboro and Boone that would long for the good old days of FCS just a few years after a jump to FBS.

[Black and Gold Express]

I know that the move looks good in many respects, but there will be a lot of folks in Statesboro and Boone that would long for the good old days of FCS just a few years after a jump to FBS.

Talk about delusional.

There is not one program that "longs for FCS" that has moved up. None, zero. Quit dreaming and wake up t oreality. Why don't teams drop down then, if it's so much better? Answer that.

For ASU in particular, a big nugget would be the resumption of series against Wake, ECU, and more regular games against the rest of the Carolina's ACC schools. Matchups that would generate a ton of local interest and increase the profile of the school in the region.

Like it or not also, the least of the I-A schools will garner interest from the better recruits than 99% of I-AA schools will. Now a lot of I-AA schools live in I-A football dead zones like the Northeast. But we are in an area thick with I-A schools, and the competition for players is fierce. And we've been successful with one arm basically tied behind our backs. Sure we'll get a gem dropped to us, like Armanti Edwards. But there are many a good player that choose life on the bench at any ACC or SEC school to life in I-AA. They may still choose it over a mid-major I-A ASU, but we'd have a much bigger chance.

ASU is in a unique position because right now we are the only I-AA school that every casual football fan can rattle off right now. I still laugh at the people that think the Michigan win was big for I-AA. It wasn't, as much as we'd like it to be. It was big for ASU. The rest of the nation still won't give a damn about I-AA in general. They'll even soon forget about ASU if we stay put in I-AA.

The TV ratings show this. You make fun of the lower-tier bowls. Facts are they ALL outdraw the I-AA championship game on TV and attendance ratings year in and year out. They may not mean much to you, and that is fine. Recognize you are in the clear minority, and that is a fact that will not change anytime soon, if ever.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For ASU in particular, a big nugget would be the resumption of series against Wake, ECU, and more regular games against the rest of the Carolina's ACC schools. Matchups that would generate a ton of local interest and increase the profile of the school in the region.

Ask Troy fans how those "more regular games" against Alabama and Auburn are working out (Zero). Or MTSU and Tennessee (One) . Or those oh-so-frequent battles between UCF and Florida (Two), or Florida State (One). Or Louisiana-Lafayette and LSU (Two). Or...

[minuteman65]

I'd only want UMass to move up if they could get into the Big East. Which ain't happening.

[Black and Gold Express]

Ask Troy fans how those "more regular games" against Alabama and Auburn are working out (Zero). Or MTSU and Tennessee (One) . Or those oh-so-frequent battles between UCF and Florida (Two), or Florida State (One). Or Louisiana-Lafayette and LSU (Two). Or...

Considering ASU has been told by Wake and ECU that they'd definitely pick up the series if we were I-A, I guess I'd have to take their word for it.

And why not ask Troy why they aren't clamoring to come back to I-AA. Oh did you forget their home victory over Mizzou a couple of years back? You know, a game that put Troy on the map to the rest of the country?

There are definitely I-A teams that struggle. But again, when somebody decides to downgrade to I-AA status, it will be the first time since the subdivision was created that it happened. Funny, you'd think that after almost 30 years if it was such a grand place more schools would move down, or move back after leaving? Wonder why that hasn't happened? Real head scratcher there.

But I forget, I-AA is better and really these programs all are wishing they could return to the better times, right? You know, where they get little or no publicity barring a major event (ASU/Michigan) and where their crown jewel (National Championship) gets lower ratings and attendance than the lowliest of the bowl games.

When you put facts to your arguments, it just fades into oblivion doesn't it.

No, I will not regret the day ASU makes the jump up to I-A, if it happens. The goals may become different at that point (outside of winning every game on the schedule). The regular season will matter the most, with a bowl game as a nice add-on. There is nothing wrong with that. And if there is a realignment someday and a new structure is in place, we can re-evaluate then.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd only want UMass to move up if they could get into the Big East. Which ain't happening.

Georgetown is in the Big East and it still isn't happening...

Bottom line, it's the company you keep. If a I-A conference provides a school with the peers its wishes to associate with and the revenue to make it worthwhile, then it will be preferred over a playoff system. The hope of national exposure for a bowl, no matter how low in the food chain, will attract teams. Nobody in the Sun Belt is yearning for a return to the I-AA/FCS playoffs. Conversely, those that stay do so because they're happy where they are.

For the handful of schools playing football below their conference's level (Georgetown and Villanova in particular), it's a different challenge. Their fans see Syracuse and Rutgers and Pitt in almost every sport but football, and to transfer the passion of Big East games to football opponents like Lafayette or Hoftstra can be difficult. At least Villanova has a regional rivalry game (Delaware).

[Fresno St. Alum]

Let's not disrepect such prestigious bowls by butchering their names. The second one should be properly referred to as the Roady's Truck Stops Humanitarian Bowl:

http://www.roadyshumanitarianbowl.com/

I'm sure Georgia Tech and Fresno State are beaming with pride at being selected for this most exciting event.xlolx


Well what else would we do. Its a chance to win a game against a BCS school. We always welcome a challenge from a bigger name school.

laugh all you want we are just playing the hand we are delt.

Go SIU!!xthumbsupx

[93BlueHen]

I'd only want UMass to move up if they could get into the Big East. Which ain't happening.

Why not? You're fielding better I-AA teams than Connecticut ever did. Is state funding the issue? I know UConn gets a boatload.

[BearsCountry]

Just ask East Carolina when was the last time a decent ACC or SEC team came and played them in Greenville?

You mean like West Virginia last year? North Carolina and NC State played there this year. Plus next year West Virginia goes back and in 2009 Virginia Tech goes to Greenville. Looking at their OOC for the future its all ACC, SEC, and Big East home games plus Navy.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/NCAA/future_schedules/eastcarolina_future.htm

[catdaddy2402]

Only 3 out of 13 schools in the MAC had winning records and only 2 of those made a Bowl game.
All three MAC teams got bowls this year.
Central Michigan vs Purdue in the Motor City
Ball State vs Rutgers in the International Bowl
Bowling Green vs Tulsa in the GMAC


Just ask East Carolina when was the last time a decent ACC or SEC team came and played them in Greenville?
West Virginia, while a Big East team, played at ECU in '06 and will play in Greenville again next year.

Va Tech plays @ Greenville in '09, and '11
South Carolina play @ Greenville in '15
NC State and North Carolina play @ Greenville in upcoming years.

When was the last time The Citadel had a decent SEC or ACC team play them in Charleston? What are the prospects of ever having any SEC or ACC team play The Citadel in Charleston?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And why not ask Troy why they aren't clamoring to come back to I-AA. Oh did you forget their home victory over Mizzou a couple of years back? You know, a game that put Troy on the map to the rest of the country?

There are definitely I-A teams that struggle. But again, when somebody decides to downgrade to I-AA status, it will be the first time since the subdivision was created that it happened. Funny, you'd think that after almost 30 years if it was such a grand place more schools would move down, or move back after leaving? Wonder why that hasn't happened? Real head scratcher there.

Most didn't do so since moving from I-A to I-AA was seen as a downgrade in status (although the school would still be Division I). In theory, FCS to FBS is now a lateral move. Time will tell since the name change if more schools will indeed move laterally from one subdivision to the other.

ASU's win over Michigan told the world that FCS teams are pretty damned good and can beat a team that was ranked in the AP Top 25. Why wouldn't Sun Belch teams want to move laterally to FCS now? FBS doesn't give them special access to money games. They need to spend more money to get less access at some sort of championship.


But I forget, I-AA is better and really these programs all are wishing they could return to the better times, right? You know, where they get little or no publicity barring a major event (ASU/Michigan) and where their crown jewel (National Championship) gets lower ratings and attendance than the lowliest of the bowl games.

Chatty sold out the last two championship games. I'd love to compare that % capacity with, say, the New Orleans Bowl. And if ASU gets back to the national championship game, I'd like to revisit the TV rankings part of this as well.

I love how FBS fans talk about "TV Ratings" as if that's all that matters. That's because they can't possibly say that their teams can realistically compete for a national championship and play in a ishty bowl.


No, I will not regret the day ASU makes the jump up to I-A, if it happens. The goals may become different at that point (outside of winning every game on the schedule). The regular season will matter the most, with a bowl game as a nice add-on. There is nothing wrong with that. And if there is a realignment someday and a new structure is in place, we can re-evaluate then.

Good luck to you if you do. You'll be spending a lot more, not getting a lot more and giving up quite a bit if you do. Power to ya.

[catdaddy2402]

Chatty sold out the last two championship games. I'd love to compare that % capacity with, say, the New Orleans Bowl.
Div I-FCS Championship game = 22,808
New Orleans Bowl = 24,791

Of course the % capacity is going to favor the FCS Championship since it was played in Finley while the New Orleans Bowl is played in the Superdome.

[Black and Gold Express]

Most didn't do so since moving from I-A to I-AA was seen as a downgrade in status (although the school would still be Division I). In theory, FCS to FBS is now a lateral move. Time will tell since the name change if more schools will indeed move laterally from one subdivision to the other.


xlolx xlolx xlolx A lateral move? Are you really that out of tune with reality? My God, there is little to help you if you honestly believe that has even 1% of truth to it.



ASU's win over Michigan told the world that FCS teams are pretty damned good and can beat a team that was ranked in the AP Top 25.


So you are one of those that think you can piggyback on our win? Wake up fella. When all is said and done, the win was big for ASU, and ASU alone. The rest of the nation still views I-AA as a bunch of weak sisters. For the most part, they are correct too. Lehigh (to use your school) did not gain a thing from our win, stop kidding yourself. You're a nobody to most of teh college football fans out there. We are too, to tell the truth. We have a moment in the sun. If we manage to get a three-peat out of this season, we'll probably get some more fame for it, but not 1/100th what the UM game brought. And it brought it to us alone. We can trumpet all we want about carrying the banner for I-AA schools. But in the end, people will remember Appalachian State, and that's all.



Chatty sold out the last two championship games. I'd love to compare that % capacity with, say, the New Orleans Bowl. And if ASU gets back to the national championship game, I'd like to revisit the TV rankings part of this as well.


Yeah, compare capacity of a 20,000 seat stadium with an NFL stadium that regularly hosts Super Bowls. Is that the best you can do? Pick the one argument you know is a slam dunk because it's such a skewed argument?

You do bring another point though - if ASU is not in the title game, the game will not come close to a sellout and won't draw flies on TV. Delaware alone won't sell that place out like we can. If it's SIU/UR, they'll be lucky to fill half the stadium. As for TV, we do carry a wee bit of name weight right now. Short lived if we don't capitalize on it. But without ASU, watch just how little people truly care for I-AA football as a nation by seeing a terrible TV rating. ASU may not even save that one, either.



I love how FBS fans talk about "TV Ratings" as if that's all that matters. That's because they can't possibly say that their teams can realistically compete for a national championship and play in a ishty bowl.


Maybe to some, it's more than just on the field. It's about exposure and marketing for the school. My God, you are so dense in thinking that it's just about the on-field game. It's more than that. We won two National Titles, and did not get 1/100th the exposure that we got (and still get) for beating Michigan. That alone says just how unimportant the I-AA playoffs are in the grand scheme.

It's nice to determine a champion on the field. It's not the be-al, end-all though. Perhaps one day you'll understand, but I'm not betting on it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe to some, it's more than just on the field. It's about exposure and marketing for the school. My God, you are so dense in thinking that it's just about the on-field game. It's more than that. We won two National Titles, and did not get 1/100th the exposure that we got (and still get) for beating Michigan. That alone says just how unimportant the I-AA playoffs are in the grand scheme.

You happen to think playing in a crappy bowl game (with a whopping 2,000 more fans than the FCS championship game in a stadium that is 75% empty) and a lifetime of Tuesday Night Football will increase "exposure" in a way the FCS cannot. I happen to think playing in the 32nd out of 32 bowls give a school "exposure" as a laughingstock.

But ASU is FCS right now and people show no signs that they have all of a sudden forgotten about the Mountaineers. Why not just keep doing what they're doing now? Schedule FBS teams and beat them while staying FCS, keeping rivalries with GSU and Furman intact, and winning championships? They get the exposure and don't need to spend more money.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You do bring another point though - if ASU is not in the title game, the game will not come close to a sellout and won't draw flies on TV. Delaware alone won't sell that place out like we can. If it's SIU/UR, they'll be lucky to fill half the stadium. As for TV, we do carry a wee bit of name weight right now. Short lived if we don't capitalize on it. But without ASU, watch just how little people truly care for I-AA football as a nation by seeing a terrible TV rating. ASU may not even save that one, either.

Care to wager on that one? A UD/UR game?

[JDC325]

Guess what EVERY SCHOOL IS DIFFERENT!! So keep your dumb bowl examples to yourself!! Every school will make its own way. What is true not ONE school regrets jumping or will come back on their own. The grapes sure are sour on this board. Why in the heck does anyone care if GSU, App, JSU move up. Get over it we are at schools that are growing in every aspect and it is natural for us to LOOK. If I were a Furman, or Citadel or any other low growth school I would not care about ever moving up but that is not the case for App or GSU ESPECIALLY when Georgia only has two other FBS teams. There is plenty of room for not only a FBS team but a very good one. I have nothing but respect for the Furmans and Citadels of the world but not all FCS teams or schools are alike and some are destined at SOME POINT to move on and each schools success will be based on the same things they are at this level like financial support, leadership, recruiting, coaching, and luck. Whether GSU, App, JSU, WKU or any other school will be the next USF or next FIU will be totally up the the INDIVIDUAL schools and their SPECIFIC situations.

[Appaholic]

xlolx xlolx xlolx Maybe to some, it's more than just on the field. It's about exposure and marketing for the school. My God, you are so dense in thinking that it's just about the on-field game. It's more than that. We won two National Titles, and did not get 1/100th the exposure that we got (and still get) for beating Michigan. That alone says just how unimportant the I-AA playoffs are in the grand scheme.

It's nice to determine a champion on the field. It's not the be-al, end-all though. Perhaps one day you'll understand, but I'm not betting on it.

I don't disagree with your argument, but I'll add my xtwocentsx

You're right, in this money- and "Me first"-driven society, it isn't what's "just on the field" and determining a champion may not be end-all, be-all.......but it should be. We are talking about competitive fokkiing football, not corporate profits or a frigging beauty contest. The fact we play in a subdivision that determines it's champion ON THE FIELD is all I need to confirm we should stay put....bigger is not always better. I am not opposed to "jumping over" to FBS....but I cannot and will not support it as long as the alternative is deciding your frigging champion based upon data entry and the whims of sportscasters and beat writers. Call me naive, but I'll take less exposure, less money, less marketing over playing in the Where'sWaldo.com bowl anyday......

But my opinion and $.50 will get a cup of coffee.....xcoffeex

[BigApp]

Why wouldn't Sun Belt teams want to move laterally to FCS now?

Very good question! xthumbsupx

I'd very much like to see you answer it, then list the number of teams that have moved BACK to this subdivision.

xreadx

[mvemjsunpx]

I think what some would pound their chest about is the money the members of the WAC are raking in lately by association to Boise State and Hawaii. That's two straight BCS bowls for the WAC and everybody in the league gets a cut.

They would argue that that's the benefit of being at their level. There is zero access to that money in the FCS. The counter is, to what cost do you get the money if you are a Louisiana Tech relegated to second-tier status in what is nothing more than another Sun Belt once you get below the top 2 or maybe 3 teams? And how unlikely are you to get the money consistently enough to make it worth it? Will the WAC consistently produce BCS bowl teams or will they slip back into obscurity?

And I doubt if the Sun Belt or the MAC EVER get into those games.


For Montana, it would be very difficult to get a worthwhile amount of money in the WAC unless they make a good bowl every year. One thing to remember is that you're likely to play fewer home games in FBS than FCS. So you get a higher conference payout, but a lower home revenue. Ironically, Montana would likely lose money by making the jump. The Griz make a lot of money off their home games as everyone knows. They've averaged 8.5 home games the last two years & have had 9 or more 7 times in the last 14 years thanks to the playoffs. There's no way Montana gets to host that many in FBS.

[ButlerGSU]

You happen to think playing in a crappy bowl game (with a whopping 2,000 more fans than the FCS championship game.

You said it, the 'crappy' bowl game drew 2,000 more people than our CHAMPIONSHIP game. It's a sad fact but still a fact.

[DFW HOYA]

I know it's unpopular on the board, but the allure of a bowl game still sells. Playing in the New Orleans or Humanitarian Bowl is a lot more recognizable to fans (and recruits) than explaining that their team went to a 20,000 seat stadium in Chattanooga, TN for an event the NCAA hardly pays attention to.

[CID1990]

Talk about delusional.

There is not one program that "longs for FCS" that has moved up. None, zero. Quit dreaming and wake up t oreality. Why don't teams drop down then, if it's so much better? Answer that.

For ASU in particular, a big nugget would be the resumption of series against Wake, ECU, and more regular games against the rest of the Carolina's ACC schools. Matchups that would generate a ton of local interest and increase the profile of the school in the region.

Like it or not also, the least of the I-A schools will garner interest from the better recruits than 99% of I-AA schools will. Now a lot of I-AA schools live in I-A football dead zones like the Northeast. But we are in an area thick with I-A schools, and the competition for players is fierce. And we've been successful with one arm basically tied behind our backs. Sure we'll get a gem dropped to us, like Armanti Edwards. But there are many a good player that choose life on the bench at any ACC or SEC school to life in I-AA. They may still choose it over a mid-major I-A ASU, but we'd have a much bigger chance.

ASU is in a unique position because right now we are the only I-AA school that every casual football fan can rattle off right now. I still laugh at the people that think the Michigan win was big for I-AA. It wasn't, as much as we'd like it to be. It was big for ASU. The rest of the nation still won't give a damn about I-AA in general. They'll even soon forget about ASU if we stay put in I-AA.

The TV ratings show this. You make fun of the lower-tier bowls. Facts are they ALL outdraw the I-AA championship game on TV and attendance ratings year in and year out. They may not mean much to you, and that is fine. Recognize you are in the clear minority, and that is a fact that will not change anytime soon, if ever.

You know what? You're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking, making an argument for why FCS is just a better place to be, and not being able to understand why some folks just want to leave so badly. I guess FCS will just have to survive without the Ball State wannabes.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Saint3333]

I can't really blame GSU, or others who have proven their worth at this level, for wanting to move. What is left for them to accomplish in 1-AA/FCS? The have 6 national championships, 30 some playoff victories.

It's like Delaware moving up to FCS in 1980 after 3 D2 national championships in the 70's.

or

NDSU moving up after 5 D2 national championships.

Why not try to play at the highest level?

This is more than just about football as well. I'd like to see what a move to the FBS has done to improve the overall university. My guess is it has increased the average number of applications to these schools which in turn raises average admission scores, and probably more noticably alumni giving to the university (athletically and overall).

[McNeese_beat]

For Montana, it would be very difficult to get a worthwhile amount of money in the WAC unless they make a good bowl every year. One thing to remember is that you're likely to play fewer home games in FBS than FCS. So you get a higher conference payout, but a lower home revenue. Ironically, Montana would likely lose money by making the jump. The Griz make a lot of money off their home games as everyone knows. They've averaged 8.5 home games the last two years & have had 9 or more 7 times in the last 14 years thanks to the playoffs. There's no way Montana gets to host that many in FBS.

Not without paying a lot of old Big Sky rivals guarantees...

I would strongly suspect that the WAC is closer to slipping out of the BCS picture than it is becoming a regular participant. There are far too many teams in the league that don't play at a high level, like Idaho, New Mexico State, La. Tech. I think you have half a league that's at the level of the Mountain West and half a league of Sun Belt-level football.

That's why it's been possible for Boise and Hawaii to make undefeated runs...the league has a soft underbelly to pad their record against.

[Black and Gold Express]

But ASU is FCS right now and people show no signs that they have all of a sudden forgotten about the Mountaineers. Why not just keep doing what they're doing now? Schedule FBS teams and beat them while staying FCS, keeping rivalries with GSU and Furman intact, and winning championships? They get the exposure and don't need to spend more money.

You really think we are going to keep packing in 28000 into a 16500 stadium to keep seeing a bunch of tiny schools come to town? This will be a short lived bump if we remain status quo, mark my words on that. No offense to the rest of the SoCon, excluding the pitiful addition of Samford, but there are exactly two SoCon games that people get truly pumped for. GSU and Furman. Perhaps some cling to Western but that's going to keep dropping in value the longer Western is less competitive.

Our home schedule rarely has more than one good OOC matchup, sometimes not even one. We don't want to just schedule random FBS teams, go in down 22 scholarships and always on the road. Sooner or later I think we'd prefer to meet them on equal footing in scholarships, and in Boone every so often.

Yes, we got teh big kill in Michigan, and have had quite a few close calls and/or decent showings. But if that is all you want, you are thinking small scale. This is what you don't get, probably because your school has no desire or chance of jumping. Lehigh is a perfect fit for I-AA because of the nature and makeup of the school.

I'm not knocking I-AA other than stating that it's not the be-all, end-all for ASU, a school with a lot more growth potential than 95% of the schools in I-AA. I-AA football is fine for your smaller schools, and schools that choose not to emphasize football as much. But that does not make it right for everyone.

The unfortunate fact is that you have such venom for schools that don't see I-AA as you do, so you belittle them. You refuse to acknowledge that not everyone is in the same position in this division. And there is a higher level of football available to those that can make it happen. Is it risky? Absolutely. But the rewards are there for schools that truly commit to it, including greater exposure.

Ask ANY school that jumped to I-A if their exposure on a local, regional, and national level has increased compared to what it was in I-AA. You will get a 100% "yes" answer to that. And it DOES matter, quite a lot. Athletics are the biggest window to a university that it has. The more you get on TV and in the new and in the minds of the general public, the better you are (unless it's for bad reasons obviously).

Again, we are the two-time defending champions of this division. You'd think that would get a lot of notoriety right? Wrong. Hardly anyone knows or cares about our division outside of students, alumni, and fans of the schools. How many people, including sportscasters, still call this division "D-II"? How many people still refer to I-A as "D-I" and do not recognize all the I-AA schools as D-I institutions? A lot.

Now, we play one game, ONE GAME, against Michigan. We score the upset of a lifetime, one that I seriously doubt anyone in I-AA will duplicate again for a long time, if ever. And we are now known to an entire nation of people. Even if it's only the answer to a trivia question 30 years from now, people know of ASU. And what will they say first? "They beat Michigan in 2007." Not the titles, not the huge winning tradition we have. We threepeat this year, we'll still be more known for the UM win than that. It's sad. It's also 100% true.

That's why there's a lot to I-A football. The lowliest of I-A teams gets more publicity than the best I-AA teams. It's a proven fact. And that publicity leads to money. And a school is a business when all is said and done. They are in the business of educating students. Businesses cannot survive without advertising and publicity. The more you get, the better.

Like I said, you see the small picture here. You miss the big picture entirely. It's not just about the on-field game. It is so much more, and I-AA fails us in almost every way on all those levels.

[ButlerGSU]

there are exactly two SoCon games that people get truly pumped for. GSU and Furman.

Our fans are the same way, we had over 24,000 come to watch the Furman game this season. I would expect nearly the same for when App comes to Paulson next year, especially because we have a bye the week before. We still can average a little over 18,000 for lesser known opponents which is Paulsons capacity but we only cover the hills for App and Furman.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The unfortunate fact is that you have such venom for schools that don't see I-AA as you do, so you belittle them. You refuse to acknowledge that not everyone is in the same position in this division. And there is a higher level of football available to those that can make it happen. Is it risky? Absolutely. But the rewards are there for schools that truly commit to it, including greater exposure.

Ask ANY school that jumped to I-A if their exposure on a local, regional, and national level has increased compared to what it was in I-AA. You will get a 100% "yes" answer to that. And it DOES matter, quite a lot. Athletics are the biggest window to a university that it has. The more you get on TV and in the new and in the minds of the general public, the better you are (unless it's for bad reasons obviously).

Of course if you ask any school you're going to get that answer. They need to justify their decision to spend millions of dollars with little to no return. Just like the architects of the Iraq War will never say that spending all that money was worth it, of course those schools will say it to keep their egos intact.

You say "the rewards are there for those that commit to it". You're talking about Boise State, who had to rely on a lawsuit for access to one of the big money bowls? You're talking about UConn, who had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to join a BC$ conference, and did so? Or are you talking about Marshall and UCF, two non-entities on the national stage? Or Idaho, whose program is still a disaster, or any one of the Sun Belt teams? Or FIU and FAU perhaps?

You talk about the "rewards are there", but the reality is that the "rewards are there" IF you can finagle yourself into a BC$ conference. Those "rewards" do NOT exist in C-USA, the Sun Belch or the MAC, which is where you're likely to go if you transition. You can beat your chest and say ASU is different, that they're going to buck the trend and become the next Boise State. But the only teams that can credibly say they've benefited from the move to FBS move are Nevada, Boise State and UConn, and one of those had a standing invite to the Big East. What "special situation" or conference "in" does App have? None.

You can choose to believe "the more you get on TV the better you are" philosophy, but I don't believe that. I haven't watched a down of Tuesday Night College football and neither has most of America. Ask how that's helped the MAC. They can say they've been on TV. I guess you think that makes them "better". I just know better.


That's why there's a lot to I-A football. The lowliest of I-A teams gets more publicity than the best I-AA teams. It's a proven fact. And that publicity leads to money. And a school is a business when all is said and done. They are in the business of educating students. Businesses cannot survive without advertising and publicity. The more you get, the better.

Like I said, you see the small picture here. You miss the big picture entirely. It's not just about the on-field game. It is so much more, and I-AA fails us in almost every way on all those levels.

The logic that follows here is so flawed I don't know where to start.

First of all, more folks have talked about ASU than Troy this year. You honestly want to diss your own school by saying Troy is more well known than ASU? I don't happen to agree with you on that. But let's assume, for a moment, that your incorrect thesis is actually true. That would mean that Troy would be kicking ASU's ass in everything: money, publicity, everything.

So, let's look at the EADA data, shall we? Note that this was LAST year's information, so any effects from the Michigan win wouldn't apply here.

ASU
Enrollment: 12,242

Revenues: 9,616,056
Expenses: 9,616,056

Football Revenues: $4,554,223
Football Expenses: $1,968,141

Troy
Enrollment: 20,069

Revenues: $13,089,969
Expenses: $13,089,969

Football Revenues: $3,879,598
Football Expenses: $3,790,663

So, in conclusion, ASU football makes MORE in revenues than Troy's "nationally renowned FBS program", spends less, and makes $2,500,000 for the athletic department than Troy's "world-renowned institution" that makes a whopping $100,000.

So tell me now: whose business plan is better? The one that spends an extra $2,000,000 with no return? Or the one that makes $2,500,000 extra in revenues?

Wait I'm sorry, FCS fails you on SO many levels. xrolleyesx

[813Jag]

Of course if you ask any school you're going to get that answer. They need to justify their decision to spend millions of dollars with little to no return. Just like the architects of the Iraq War will never say that spending all that money was worth it, of course those schools will say it to keep their egos intact.

You say "the rewards are there for those that commit to it". You're talking about Boise State, who had to rely on a lawsuit for access to one of the big money bowls? You're talking about UConn, who had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to join a BC$ conference, and did so? Or are you talking about Marshall and UCF, two non-entities on the national stage? Or Idaho, whose program is still a disaster, or any one of the Sun Belt teams? Or FIU and FAU perhaps?

You talk about the "rewards are there", but the reality is that the "rewards are there" IF you can finagle yourself into a BC$ conference. Those "rewards" do NOT exist in C-USA, the Sun Belch or the MAC, which is where you're likely to go if you transition. You can beat your chest and say ASU is different, that they're going to buck the trend and become the next Boise State. But the only teams that can credibly say they've benefited from the move to FBS move are Nevada, Boise State and UConn, and one of those had a standing invite to the Big East. What "special situation" or conference "in" does App have? None.

You can choose to believe "the more you get on TV the better you are" philosophy, but I don't believe that. I haven't watched a down of Tuesday Night College football and neither has most of America. Ask how that's helped the MAC. They can say they've been on TV. I guess you think that makes them "better". I just know better.



The logic that follows here is so flawed I don't know where to start.

First of all, more folks have talked about ASU than Troy this year. You honestly want to diss your own school by saying Troy is more well known than ASU? I don't happen to agree with you on that. But let's assume, for a moment, that your incorrect thesis is actually true. That would mean that Troy would be kicking ASU's ass in everything: money, publicity, everything.

So, let's look at the EADA data, shall we? Note that this was LAST year's information, so any effects from the Michigan win wouldn't apply here.

ASU
Enrollment: 12,242

Revenues: 9,616,056
Expenses: 9,616,056

Football Revenues: $4,554,223
Football Expenses: $1,968,141

Troy
Enrollment: 20,069

Revenues: $13,089,969
Expenses: $13,089,969

Football Revenues: $3,879,598
Football Expenses: $3,790,663

So, in conclusion, ASU football makes MORE in revenues than Troy's "nationally renowned FBS program", spends less, and makes $2,500,000 for the athletic department than Troy's "world-renowned institution" that makes a whopping $100,000.

So tell me now: whose business plan is better? The one that spends an extra $2,000,000 with no return? Or the one that makes $2,500,000 extra in revenues?

Wait I'm sorry, FCS fails you on SO many levels. xrolleyesx
It's taken a while but I would venture to say that UCF is making good strides. Opening a new on-campus stadium (hosting Texas for the first home game and hosting the CUSA championship game) and being able to increase their foothold on recruiting in Florida will go along way in helping them. Are they contenders on a national stage? No. But truly how many FCS teams are considered contenders every year? There's always a possibility of a playoff run. But (just for example) do you really think that Morgan State, Weber State, or Tennesse Tech (no offense to these schools) are really going to win a championship?
FAU's program is only seven years old and their going to a meaningless (to some) bowl game. That's only going to help their program grow. The same thing happened to USF, they worked their way up and caught a few breaks. Nobodies situation is the same so who knows what the future holds for any team.
I love FCS and don't have any real desire for my school to move, but to each his own.

[ButlerGSU]

You're data is pretty dated. App State has an enrollment approaching 15,000 if not more. Similar to GSU's nearly 17,000 but many of the enrollment data on the web list us as 14,000 still.

[MSU_77]

There are definitely I-A teams that struggle. But again, when somebody decides to downgrade to I-AA status, it will be the first time since the subdivision was created that it happened. Funny, you'd think that after almost 30 years if it was such a grand place more schools would move down, or move back after leaving? Wonder why that hasn't happened? Real head scratcher there.


McNeese voluntarily dropped from I-A, where it had experienced a moderate amount of success, going to 3 bowl games in 6 years, to I-AA in 1983. The financial commitment to remain at the I-A level in football was too great in comparison to the financial returns. There is occasional talk about moving back up, but most McNeese fans are committed to continuing to seek an FBS championship first.

[AshevilleApp]

All signs point to App moving to FBS regardless of whether we as App fans like it.

- UNC System is dumping money into App to increase enrollment, expand campus
- Money spent on expanding press-boxes, player development areas
- Hiring of new atheltic director from NC State.

I firmly believe that the "hill" will be developed to accomodate more fannies and App will be FBS bound in 5 years. App has history with Marshall, Troy, Western Kentucky and (probably FBS bound as well) GSU.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a new conference created with the Sun Belt and C-USA being disbanded.

[MSU_77]

All signs point to App moving to FCS regardless of whether we as App fans like it.

- UNC System is dumping money into App to increase enrollment, expand campus
- Money spent on expanding press-boxes, player development areas
- Hiring of new atheltic director from NC State.

I firmly believe that the "hill" will be developed to accomodate more fannies and App will be FCS bound in 5 years. App has history with Marshall, Troy, Western Kentucky and (probably FCS bound as well) GSU.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a new conference created with the Sun Belt and C-USA being disbanded.

Um, maybe you mean FBS?

[JDC325]

Of course if you ask any school you're going to get that answer. They need to justify their decision to spend millions of dollars with little to no return. Just like the architects of the Iraq War will never say that spending all that money was worth it, of course those schools will say it to keep their egos intact.

You say "the rewards are there for those that commit to it". You're talking about Boise State, who had to rely on a lawsuit for access to one of the big money bowls? You're talking about UConn, who had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to join a BC$ conference, and did so? Or are you talking about Marshall and UCF, two non-entities on the national stage? Or Idaho, whose program is still a disaster, or any one of the Sun Belt teams? Or FIU and FAU perhaps?

You talk about the "rewards are there", but the reality is that the "rewards are there" IF you can finagle yourself into a BC$ conference. Those "rewards" do NOT exist in C-USA, the Sun Belch or the MAC, which is where you're likely to go if you transition. You can beat your chest and say ASU is different, that they're going to buck the trend and become the next Boise State. But the only teams that can credibly say they've benefited from the move to FBS move are Nevada, Boise State and UConn, and one of those had a standing invite to the Big East. What "special situation" or conference "in" does App have? None.

You can choose to believe "the more you get on TV the better you are" philosophy, but I don't believe that. I haven't watched a down of Tuesday Night College football and neither has most of America. Ask how that's helped the MAC. They can say they've been on TV. I guess you think that makes them "better". I just know better.



The logic that follows here is so flawed I don't know where to start.

First of all, more folks have talked about ASU than Troy this year. You honestly want to diss your own school by saying Troy is more well known than ASU? I don't happen to agree with you on that. But let's assume, for a moment, that your incorrect thesis is actually true. That would mean that Troy would be kicking ASU's ass in everything: money, publicity, everything.

So, let's look at the EADA data, shall we? Note that this was LAST year's information, so any effects from the Michigan win wouldn't apply here.

ASU
Enrollment: 12,242

Revenues: 9,616,056
Expenses: 9,616,056

Football Revenues: $4,554,223
Football Expenses: $1,968,141

Troy
Enrollment: 20,069

Revenues: $13,089,969
Expenses: $13,089,969

Football Revenues: $3,879,598
Football Expenses: $3,790,663

So, in conclusion, ASU football makes MORE in revenues than Troy's "nationally renowned FBS program", spends less, and makes $2,500,000 for the athletic department than Troy's "world-renowned institution" that makes a whopping $100,000.

So tell me now: whose business plan is better? The one that spends an extra $2,000,000 with no return? Or the one that makes $2,500,000 extra in revenues?

Wait I'm sorry, FCS fails you on SO many levels. xrolleyesx

ASU is not Troy . Is there a rule or something that says any school that jumps up to a HIGHER level has to follow the HATERS doomsday examples?
Good thing a lot of schools did not get that memo. GSU and ASU hold up their ends of the bargain for the FCS unfortunately the other 100-110 schools do not and bore our fan base to tears.

[Syntax Error]

Is there a rule or something that says any school that jumps up to a HIGHER level has to follow reality?Fixed it for you. xnodx

[JDC325]

Fixed it for you. xnodx


If it were original it would be funny.....it is sooooo funny when people change others posts.... I mean sooooo funny. So clever, I bet it was funny the first ten time you saw other people do it. xcoffeex

Good thing your not an AD.

[AshevilleApp]

Um, maybe you mean FBS?

Whoops, I'll fix it...thanks

[Syntax Error]

If it were original it would be funny......Wasn't supposed to be funny, really. Just true.

[TheValleyRaider]

ASU is not Troy . Is there a rule or something that says any school that jumps up to a HIGHER level has to follow the HATERS doomsday examples?

Yeah, but what is it that makes ASU and/or GSU different? What makes your programs more likely to be truly and consistently successful at that level?


GSU and ASU hold up their ends of the bargain for the FCS unfortunately the other 100-110 schools do not and bore our fan base to tears.

Well, it's a good thing exciting programs like MTSU, FAU, ULL and FIU will be there to keep you guys interested xrolleyesx

[Saint3333]

People are confused if they think the move is just about football.

[CID1990]

You really think we are going to keep packing in 28000 into a 16500 stadium to keep seeing a bunch of tiny schools come to town? This will be a short lived bump if we remain status quo, mark my words on that. No offense to the rest of the SoCon, excluding the pitiful addition of Samford, but there are exactly two SoCon games that people get truly pumped for. GSU and Furman. Perhaps some cling to Western but that's going to keep dropping in value the longer Western is less competitive.

Our home schedule rarely has more than one good OOC matchup, sometimes not even one. We don't want to just schedule random FBS teams, go in down 22 scholarships and always on the road. Sooner or later I think we'd prefer to meet them on equal footing in scholarships, and in Boone every so often.

Yes, we got teh big kill in Michigan, and have had quite a few close calls and/or decent showings. But if that is all you want, you are thinking small scale. This is what you don't get, probably because your school has no desire or chance of jumping. Lehigh is a perfect fit for I-AA because of the nature and makeup of the school.

I'm not knocking I-AA other than stating that it's not the be-all, end-all for ASU, a school with a lot more growth potential than 95% of the schools in I-AA. I-AA football is fine for your smaller schools, and schools that choose not to emphasize football as much. But that does not make it right for everyone.

The unfortunate fact is that you have such venom for schools that don't see I-AA as you do, so you belittle them. You refuse to acknowledge that not everyone is in the same position in this division. And there is a higher level of football available to those that can make it happen. Is it risky? Absolutely. But the rewards are there for schools that truly commit to it, including greater exposure.

Ask ANY school that jumped to I-A if their exposure on a local, regional, and national level has increased compared to what it was in I-AA. You will get a 100% "yes" answer to that. And it DOES matter, quite a lot. Athletics are the biggest window to a university that it has. The more you get on TV and in the new and in the minds of the general public, the better you are (unless it's for bad reasons obviously).

Again, we are the two-time defending champions of this division. You'd think that would get a lot of notoriety right? Wrong. Hardly anyone knows or cares about our division outside of students, alumni, and fans of the schools. How many people, including sportscasters, still call this division "D-II"? How many people still refer to I-A as "D-I" and do not recognize all the I-AA schools as D-I institutions? A lot.

Now, we play one game, ONE GAME, against Michigan. We score the upset of a lifetime, one that I seriously doubt anyone in I-AA will duplicate again for a long time, if ever. And we are now known to an entire nation of people. Even if it's only the answer to a trivia question 30 years from now, people know of ASU. And what will they say first? "They beat Michigan in 2007." Not the titles, not the huge winning tradition we have. We threepeat this year, we'll still be more known for the UM win than that. It's sad. It's also 100% true.

That's why there's a lot to I-A football. The lowliest of I-A teams gets more publicity than the best I-AA teams. It's a proven fact. And that publicity leads to money. And a school is a business when all is said and done. They are in the business of educating students. Businesses cannot survive without advertising and publicity. The more you get, the better.

Like I said, you see the small picture here. You miss the big picture entirely. It's not just about the on-field game. It is so much more, and I-AA fails us in almost every way on all those levels.

I guess it's obvious that exposure, notoriety and publicity are important to you. Hey, if it matters to you that people in California know who ASU is, then knock yourself out.

[BigApp]

Very good question! xthumbsupx

I'd very much like to see you answer it, then list the number of teams that have moved BACK to this subdivision.

xreadx

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[BigApp]

People are confused if they think the move is just about football.

xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

[Syntax Error]

You really think we are going to keep packing in 28000 into a 16500 stadium to keep seeing a bunch of tiny schools
No offense to the rest of the SoCon, excluding the pitiful addition of Samford
Our home schedule rarely has more than one good OOC matchup
your school has no desire or chance
I-AA football is fine for your smaller schools, and schools that choose not to emphasize football
The unfortunate fact is that you have such venom
The more you get on TV and in the new and in the minds of the general public, the better you are
Hardly anyone knows or cares about our division
The lowliest of I-A teams gets more publicity than the best I-AA teams.
I-AA fails us in almost every way on all those levels."I'm not knocking I-AA [sic]"...
No competition Check!
We beat Michigan Check!
I-AA [sic] is for smaller and lesser teams Check!
We are the two-time defending champions Check!
No one cares about I-AA [sic] Check!
We beat Michigan Check!
I-AA [sic] fails us Check!

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[Lehigh Football Nation]

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McNeese State
Richmond
The Entire Ivy League

[Black and Gold Express]

"I'm not knocking I-AA [sic]"...
No competition Check!
We beat Michigan Check!
I-AA [sic] is for smaller and lesser teams Check!
We are the two-time defending champions Check!
No one cares about I-AA [sic] Check!
We beat Michigan Check!
I-AA [sic] fails us Check!

xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

How about you put the rest of my statement in? I am not knocking I-AA. It is what it is, and it's great for that purpose. It IS small(er)-time football, plain and simple. For some, it's a perfect fit. For others, not so much. I believe ASU is now in the latter category. My alma mater is fast outgrowing this subdivision, and therefore needs to be looking elsewhere.

I get a kick out of is you oversensitive types taking it so personally when someone thinks there is something bigger and better, as if it's an affront to you.

[Black and Gold Express]

McNeese State
Richmond
The Entire Ivy League

Those teams moved to I-AA, moved back to I-A, and THEN moved back to I-AA? I don't think that is the case for any of them, and that is the question being poised.

Show us teams that tried out I-AA football, then jumped up (or back) to I-A, and then decided that I-AA was better and made a SECOND drop down to I-AA. Far as I know, none have. Why is that?

[MSU_77]

Those teams moved to I-AA, moved back to I-A, and THEN moved back to I-AA? I don't think that is the case for any of them, and that is the question being poised.

Show us teams that tried out I-AA football, then jumped up (or back) to I-A, and then decided that I-AA was better and made a SECOND drop down to I-AA. Far as I know, none have. Why is that?

I don't know that you'll find the exact scenario you're describing. McNeese moved up from the NCAA College Division (now DII) to the University Division (now IA) in 1972. Division I split into IA and IAA in 1978. McNeese stayed in IA in 1978 (going 11-0 in 1979 and ranked at one time in the top 20, and 10-1 in 1980), then dropped down to IAA in 1983.

[Black and Gold Express]

I don't know that you'll find the exact scenario you're describing. McNeese moved up from the NCAA College Division (now DII) to the University Division (now IA) in 1972. Division I split into IA and IAA in 1978. McNeese stayed in IA in 1978 (going 11-0 in 1979 and ranked at one time in the top 20, and 10-1 in 1980), then dropped down to IAA in 1983.

McNeese doesn't fit the bill then, though they may come as close as any might.

The point here is, people like LFN have such hate towards I-A that they deride any team making the jump to I-A. What we have been trying (with no success mind you) to get LFN to point us to are cases where a school that used to be I-AA made the jump then decided (like LFN thinks) that I-AA is better and moved back down.

As you state, there aren't any. Which leads one to think why would all these schools remain in I-A if I-AA really was so far and away better? After nearly thirty years, with plenty of teams making the move up to I-A, not one of them has moved back. Sure seems like at least one would...

[McNeese_beat]

People are confused if they think the move is just about football.

First, an aside: Isn't it funny how some of the posters are fumbling over the FCS-FBS labels on this thread? Weren't I-AA and I-A more simple labels for those who would BOTHER to learn them?

You still have people who call FCS Division II and people who say "Division I" only in reference to the FBS. But now you also have the confusion caused by "FCS" looking so much like "BCS" which is part of the "FBS" which sounds like the network that broadcasts SEC games...

Now, back to the topic...

The move should not be about just football, it should be about conference affiliation. Two questions a program needs to ask itself upon moving up are:
1. What conference would we move into?
2. Does our affiliation with that conference help or hinder our sports?

If Ga. Southern and/or App. State can move into Conference USA or some variation of it and that would allow them to play the old rivals they seek to play, then it might be an attractive move. If C-USA wants your teams, then you join a stronger basketball/baseball league by association with Memphis (basketball) and Rice/Tulane (baseball). When UConn started playing Big East football, that gave it access to BCS money the league gets through its bowl affiliations, which helps all sports. So that was a wise move.

But if you don't get C-USA membership and instead are left to maybe merge with the eastern half of the Sun Belt, then you really wouldn't have changed anything but your football post-season (the New Orleans bowl instead of the FCS playoffs) and your expenses (you have to add non-revenue women's sports and 22 football scholarships, plus your league would require more travel for not only football, but ALL teams).

But I think the evidence is clear that simply having the "I-A" or "FBS" label in football does nothing for your other programs.

In this region, right now the Southland has been kicking the Sun Belt's butt in basketball (UTA beats North Texas, Central Arkansas beats UALR, Nicholls beats UNO). Before the Sun Belt formed as a football league it was clearly stronger than the Southland in basketball, but playing I-A football has actually led to the gap between the SLC and the SBC CLOSING in hoops with the FCS programs actually catching up with the SBC. Baseball is similar, but the Sun Belt has an edge based on the fact that they have a particularly strong program in UL-Lafayette. And ULL's success, in my opinion, has more to do with their community's commitment to the sport than it does with what nomenclature they compete under in football.

The bottom line is moving up is not a magic potion that's going to improve all your sports. But conference affiliations can improve your sports. So instead of asking yourself if you are going to be better off in the FBS than the FCS, you should ask yourself, is the FBS conference we'd be joining going to be an improvement over the Southern Conference? And keep in mind that the SC is a strong, historically significant Division I league.

[rudy1648]

This year both UNC and NC State played in Greenville. Oh,,,sorry. You said a "decent" ACC or SEC team. I do see that one of the teams mentioned several times in this thread is playing ECU in the Hawaii Bowl. Boise State vs ECU. Wondering if Chattanooga is as nice as Hawaii this time of year.

[Appstate29]

This year both UNC and NC State played in Greenville. Oh,,,sorry. You said a "decent" ACC or SEC team. I do see that one of the teams mentioned several times in this thread is playing ECU in the Hawaii Bowl. Boise State vs ECU. Wondering if Chattanooga is as nice as Hawaii this time of year.

I might be in favor of a move up, but a ring is sweeter than any beach.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

McNeese doesn't fit the bill then, though they may come as close as any might.

The point here is, people like LFN simply point out the facts regarding any team making the jump to I-A that I simply cannot process through my brain and choose to ignore. What we have been trying (with no success mind you) to is ask LFN to find out which teams moved from FBS to FCS, and then when he found ten such schools we decided to try to change the rules of the game by coming up with a weird scenario.

Which leads one to ignore the post LFN made that egos and decision justification was involved. After nearly thirty years, with plenty of teams making the move up to I-A, only the ten that LFN have mentioned have moved back.

Fixed it for you. No seriously, did you even read my posts?

[Black and Gold Express]

The bottom line is moving up is not a magic potion that's going to improve all your sports. But conference affiliations can improve your sports. So instead of asking yourself if you are going to be better off in the FBS than the FCS, you should ask yourself, is the FBS conference we'd be joining going to be an improvement over the Southern Conference? And keep in mind that the SC is a strong, historically significant Division I league.

That is a good point. However, we are all aware that football is the revenue generator for most schools that funds the rest of the department. With basketball (usually just men's) second. So while the rest of the sports are not unimportant, they are not AS important as making sure your revenue sports are better off for it.

I played baseball in college, so I come from a non-revenue sport background. And if my school wanted to make a jump that primarily helped football, that still would help the rest of us because there's a good chance we'd be better funded as an entire athletics department.

A conference affiliation is a must. I know no ASU fans eager for I-A that would see the SunBelt as a desireable target, outside of it being a stepping stone. C-USA would be a perfect fit for ASU in my opinion, but it's also out of reach for any I-AA school as an initial landing spot. They are established enough that they don't need to add schools from I-AA if they had a spot open up. Many would prefer to create a new I-A conference made of like-minded schools with I-AA programs.

I still think that one day the BCS will split itself from the rest of I-A, and there will be a major shakeup because of that. And hey, we could not do anything for 4 years even if we were ready to.

[Black and Gold Express]

Fixed it for you. No seriously, did you even read my posts?

Very cute. Didn't realize you were still in Kindergarten. Time for that nap and milk yet? Resorting to juvenile tactics is a clear sign you are losing this one. Best you just drop it.

Oh, and you have yet to mention one single school that met our questions for you. But I'm not surprised that you tried to weasel your way out of it. We can try one last time though, and I'll make it crystal clear: Show us schools that LEFT I-AA for I-A that have decided to return. Not people making later initial drops to I-AA after it was created in 1978. Can we make it any clearer or are you going to keep on dodging the subject?

[Syntax Error]

... that is the question being poised...The question was "list the number of teams that have moved BACK to this subdivision." Those teams went I-A then moved to I-AA.

[McNeese_beat]

That is a good point. However, we are all aware that football is the revenue generator for most schools that funds the rest of the department. With basketball (usually just men's) second. So while the rest of the sports are not unimportant, they are not AS important as making sure your revenue sports are better off for it.

I played baseball in college, so I come from a non-revenue sport background. And if my school wanted to make a jump that primarily helped football, that still would help the rest of us because there's a good chance we'd be better funded as an entire athletics department.

A conference affiliation is a must. I know no ASU fans eager for I-A that would see the SunBelt as a desireable target, outside of it being a stepping stone. C-USA would be a perfect fit for ASU in my opinion, but it's also out of reach for any I-AA school as an initial landing spot. They are established enough that they don't need to add schools from I-AA if they had a spot open up. Many would prefer to create a new I-A conference made of like-minded schools with I-AA programs.

I still think that one day the BCS will split itself from the rest of I-A, and there will be a major shakeup because of that. And hey, we could not do anything for 4 years even if we were ready to.

But the point is that moving to FBS does not, if and of itself, help improve funding. Certainly a move to a league that would include the former FCS rivals would do nothing to improve funding because the league would have limited bowl opportunities (certainly not BCS bowl money) and the attendance would only be altered by the growth/decline of the fan bases. Is Marshall drawing any more now than it did in the Randy Moss days? Would App fans draw more if they played in a league that included Marshall, W. Ky, etc? You might get some money from some minor contract to have games on ESPNU or ESPN360, but that would be more than offset by your increased costs (scholarships, added sports, travel).

The most likely financially boost you would get from moving up would be through association to Memphis basketball. C-USA members currently get a nice NCAA tournament chunk every year because the amount of money a conference makes is based on how many teams you get in the tournament and how far those teams get in the tournament.

I would say more schools move to Division I in hopes for NCAA tourney money than for football good fortune.

[McNeese_beat]

Very cute. Didn't realize you were still in Kindergarten. Time for that nap and milk yet? Resorting to juvenile tactics is a clear sign you are losing this one. Best you just drop it.

Oh, and you have yet to mention one single school that met our questions for you. But I'm not surprised that you tried to weasel your way out of it. We can try one last time though, and I'll make it crystal clear: Show us schools that LEFT I-AA for I-A that have decided to return. Not people making later initial drops to I-AA after it was created in 1978. Can we make it any clearer or are you going to keep on dodging the subject?

Yes, in the case of the Southland Conference, the entire league joined Division I and played in I-A in the late 70s and early 80s. The Independence Bowl was actually created in part to give the SLC a bowl tie-in (although the league champion was not guaranteed a spot, McNeese played in the 1976, 79 and 80 Indy Bowls. McNeese beat Tulsa in 1976, lost to Syracuse in 1979 and Southern Miss in 1980). Then when the NCAA toughened requirements to remain in Division I-A, the SLC members voted to move to I-AA and USL (now ULL) opted to remain in Division I-A as an independent and leave the league.

The Ivy League also moved down en masse. Somebody else mentioned Richmond, but I'm unaware of their history.

[Black and Gold Express]

Those teams chose I-A then moved back to I-AA.

They initially chose I-A when there was no I-AA option at the time, correct?

The point we have been trying to make is, if I-AA is so much better, why have NO teams that played in and therefore know I-AA left, and ever returned? It really shoots holes in the theory that I-AA is this grand better place for all when NOBODY that has been in I-AA and left for "greener pastures" has found the place they left (I-AA) was actually the greener pasture and returned.

Makes you wonder. Oh wait, I forgot, it's "ego". Riiiiight... xlolx xlolx xreadx xreadx

[Syntax Error]

They initially chose I-A when there was no I-AA option at the time, correct?...No, incorrect. That was the option, I-A or I-AA. You made your point but you have to admit that ego is a huge factor. I have heard it over and over so I know that it is. You don't have to put down the FCS to explain why you want to go bowling. Just say I WANT TO GO BOWLING! xnodx

http://eroundlake.com/blog/uploaded_images/Bowling-722210.jpeg

[McNeese_beat]

They initially chose I-A when there was no I-AA option at the time, correct?

The point we have been trying to make is, if I-AA is so much better, why have NO teams that played in and therefore know I-AA left, and ever returned? It really shoots holes in the theory that I-AA is this grand better place for all when NOBODY that has been in I-AA and left for "greener pastures" has found the place they left (I-AA) was actually the greener pasture and returned.

Makes you wonder. Oh wait, I forgot, it's "ego". Riiiiight... xlolx xlolx xreadx xreadx

It's not about whether I-AA/FCS is a "better" place, it's about whether it's the "right" place for your program.

I think Montana fans have a pretty realistic view of it. Moving into the WAC would not significantly increase their income vs. expenses. But I'm sure if they were courted by the Mountain West, they would have to take a much harder look at that option...

Same situation you're in. Conference USA membership might be attractive. Any kind of BCS league membership would be a no-brainer slam dunk. But moving into a conference to associate primarily with other former FCS teams would increase expenses far more than income and would be a bad move.

[Black and Gold Express]

Yes, in the case of the Southland Conference, the entire league joined Division I and played in I-A in the late 70s and early 80s. The Independence Bowl was actually created in part to give the SLC a bowl tie-in (although the league champion was not guaranteed a spot, McNeese played in the 1976, 79 and 80 Indy Bowls. McNeese beat Tulsa in 1976, lost to Syracuse in 1979 and Southern Miss in 1980). Then when the NCAA toughened requirements to remain in Division I-A, the SLC members voted to move to I-AA and USL (now ULL) opted to remain in Division I-A as an independent and leave the league.

The Ivy League also moved down en masse. Somebody else mentioned Richmond, but I'm unaware of their history.

Those conferences moved down, but had not previously been in I-AA and left. And when McNeese jumped from D-II to D-I, I-AA was not in existence at the time, correct? It makes it different. None of those cut the mustard.

The Ivies are a different animal altogether, and even to this day are so.

The argument remains, and nobody has proven otherwise. Every team that has spent time in I-AA, and left for I-A, has not returned to I-AA. For the umpteenth time, I ask why is that. All I get is an artful dodge, or some lame excuse about "ego".

You said exactly what I have said many times, it's all about it being a correct fit for the university. What annoys me is LFN's bashing of I-A as a whole, and trashing those that made the jump as if they made a mistake. They didn't, they just see things differently than LFN does. Which of course makes them wrong. xrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Those conferences moved down, but had not previously been in I-AA and left. And when McNeese jumped from D-II to D-I, I-AA was not in existence at the time, correct? It makes it different. None of those cut the mustard.

Yes, it was. They made a choice (like Richmond did, and the Ivies) when the divisions came into being to remain at Big College level (I-A) or Small College Level (I-AA). They made the choice to enter into I-A, realized that it was a bad idea, and moved to I-AA. Unless you believe that Richmond and Ohio State were equivalent programs (all "Division I", after all) prior to 1978.

The Ivies had always been "big college level" and even today some Ivy folks have lamented the fact they went to I-AA since they gave up potential games against Army, Navy, Notre Dame. But there was always unease about where the Ivies belonged since the 1950s. In the 60s schools were furiously lobbying for a way to separate the Michigan's from the Lehigh's and making a different subdivision. Those battles are what led to I-AA being created.


What annoys me is LFN's bashing of I-A as a whole, and trashing those that made the jump as if they made a mistake. They didn't, they just see things differently than LFN does. Which of course makes them wrong. xrolleyesx

So ASU made $2,500,000 for their athletic department in FCS, while Troy has barely holding its football program above water as a lantern-carrier for the FCS programs that have gone to FBS and never looked back. Why is pointing out that fact considered "bashing"?

I pointed out that Troy hadn't developed any "in-state rivalries" with Alabama or Auburn after you claimed that this would be a benefit to FBS membership. How is this bashing?

I didn't bash UConn for stepping into a dream situation, or for Boise State or Nevada for working their way into good situations. I'm saying that for a lot of schools that make the jump, the reality is "Troy-like finances and crappy bowls". And yes, I consider when a national sportswriter rates the Sun Belt's Bowl as 32nd out of 32 bowls "crappy".

You may think spending $2,000,000 more on your program with little to no return is just fine. You might call that "seeing things differently", I guess. Yet oddly enough there has been deafening silence from you about how spending more money to get less is beneficial to ASU.

ASU
Enrollment: 12,242

Revenues: 9,616,056
Expenses: 9,616,056

Football Revenues: $4,554,223
Football Expenses: $1,968,141

Troy
Enrollment: 20,069

Revenues: $13,089,969
Expenses: $13,089,969

Football Revenues: $3,879,598
Football Expenses: $3,790,663

[bobbythekidd]

xpopcornx

[OL FU]

Well I always enjoy reading these threads. I have said before and will say again, each insititution has to do what they think is in their best interest and best of luck to those that do decide to move. I suppose I am always suprised by two things though. One, since change is inevitable why do those of us that prefer I-AA get in a tizzy when others want to leave. No one leaves in mass. It is one school at a time. Sometimes it is the top program but that program is always replaced (and please don't say Marshall wasn't. We all know that Marshall cheated to get to the top of IAA and we all see where they are now that they aren't cheating anymore). I know others disagree but I really don't think the caliber of competition decreases when a top program leaves. It just re-shuffles for a while. I suppose on the other side I am one of those that really doesn't care if my school or my division doesn't get national recognition for football. Football is a arm of the university but it certainly isn't what my university is about. I suppose I might feel differently if I went to a larger school that competes with other larger schools in the same state. I realize that most people only know a school from their sports program. Hopefully this doesn't sound arrogant because it is not meant as such, but I really don't give a rip if most people don't know Furman football. If you live in South Carolina and the only thing you know about Furman is football, then you know one of the least important things about my school and your opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway.

Seems to me that it is not that big of a deal either way. If people want to leave let them go and wish them well. Much better to have a family member move away than have him hate where he is living.

[OL FU]

xpopcornx

Pass the box please

[Syntax Error]

... why do those of us that prefer I-AA get in a tizzy when others want to leave... Much better to have a family member move away than have him hate where he is living.Personally, the problem is FCS bashing on the way out... or in this case, wishing they were on the way out. So if you're going to move away there is no need to call the current place a dump. And if you're moving it is not uncommon to discuss whether you can afford it. All of us like it when they move and it works out well. xnodx xthumbsupx

[yosef1969]

Personally, the problem is FCS bashing on the way out... or in this case, wishing they were on the way out. So if you're going to move away there is no need to call the current place a dump. And if you're moving it is not uncommon to discuss whether you can afford it. All of us like it when they move and it works out well. xnodx xthumbsupx

I think you mean percieved bashing. By saying you want to play at the highest level you aren't necessarily bashing the level you're trying to leave. I understand this is an FCS forum but there's much more bashing of the lower tiered FBS here than the other way around.

I can't understand why I get so wrapped up in this argument everytime. I am so tired of this discussion, even among fellow alums and tailgaters each week. Fact of the mater is there is a 4 year moratorium on division moves. I think this was done in order to stabilize the FBS division and prevent moves by schools that probably should not make the jump. I still hope however when the time comes ASU is in a position to make a move if the opportunity presents itself.

If not, I'm okay with staying in FCS but I'd love to see some indication from the NCAA that they are at least directing some focus on stabilizing FCS by putting an end to Regionalization, separates non-scholly's and non-playoff participants from the rest of the division, more closely scrutinizing division applicants and encouraging better scheduling.

[Syntax Error]

I think you mean percieved bashing. By saying you want to play at the highest level you aren't necessarily bashing the level you're trying to leave...This is bashing FCS:
No competition
I-AA [sic] is for smaller and lesser teams
No one cares about I-AA [sic]
I-AA [sic] fails us

Like I said, just say I WANT TO GO BOWLING! No need to say, this place sucks, it's not worthy of us, etc. Coming to the AGS Discussion Board and saying that, is wrong. xpeacex

[OL FU]

It seems to go both ways is the problem. Yes a lot of posters who want to leave bash the FCS. They may not even realize it. But Syntax is correct. Lesser competition, no respect, DII schools moving up. I once heard a GSU supporter say "Furman should not be our biggest rival".Well there are many ways to take that but let's be real it is not a complimentxrolleyesx

On the other hand, the decision of affordability is the schools decision. I doubt very seriously that when you take into consideration the costs of scholarships that many FCS schools break even. I cannot imagine that Furman does (even though their reports probably say they do ). Football is a PR issue and if it is a lost leader no one is better positioned than the school in question to determine whether it is affordable.

[citdog]

i for one am not going to stand in the way of GSU seceding

[yosef1969]

It seems to go both ways is the problem. Yes a lot of posters who want to leave bash the FCS. They may not even realize it. But Syntax is correct. Lesser competition, no respect, DII schools moving up. I once heard a GSU supporter say "Furman should not be our biggest rival".Well there are many ways to take that but let's be real it is not a complimentxrolleyesx

On the other hand, the decision of affordability is the schools decision. I doubt very seriously that when you take into consideration the costs of scholarships that many FCS schools break even. I cannot imagine that Furman does (even though their reports probably say they do ). Football is a PR issue and if it is a lost leader no one is better positioned than the school in question to determine whether it is affordable.

I do see your point and agree for the most part but I think we are taking the few examples and painting the whole group with the same broad stroke.

I do want ASU to make a move to FBS at some point. I think that should be the long term goal for app state. I do not think less of FCS teams or schools. I just think differently of them than I do FBS. For some schools it is a perfect fit but for others there are better opportunities and there is no shame in wanting to play at the highest level possible.

I also think there is validity in the view ASU has more in common with Marshall, ECU and Troy than Wofford, Samford, and Elon. You can take the bottom of both divisions and find failing programs. That will never change but it seems no one here is discouraging Campbell, Presbyterian, Georgia State, ODU etc from moving into FCS.

[asu7]

I love yall! ...

It is not gonna be up to us anyways really ... if Cobb wants FBS then FBS is what we get ...

I will pull for APP and bleed black and gold no matter what our record is, or who we play, or where we are. GO APPS! ..

I do like playing GSU FU WOFF AND EL CID (I love Charleston) but I too would like to play ECU and other schools on a regular basis who would not give us time or day right now. I would love to play UNC, DUKE, STATE, WAKE every year ... close schools that I can travel too and I have family that went to UNC so we could talk some trash ... this is just my oppinion

I love APP and love to win but I want to play those schools too. In fact if those schools would play us every year I would be fine staying here. One of the games I have enjoyed the most was the STATE game last year even tho we lost it was fun.

[OL FU]

I do see your point and agree for the most part but I think we are taking the few examples and painting the whole group with the same broad stroke.

I do want ASU to make a move to FBS at some point. I think that should be the long term goal for app state. I do not think less of FCS teams or schools. I just think differently of them than I do FBS. For some schools it is a perfect fit but for others there are better opportunities and there is no shame in wanting to play at the highest level possible.

I also think there is validity in the view ASU has more in common with Marshall, ECU and Troy than Wofford, Samford, and Elon. You can take the bottom of both divisions and find failing programs. That will never change but it seems no one here is discouraging Campbell, Presbyterian, Georgia State, ODU etc from moving into FCS.


I was responding to Syntax mostly and did not quote him. I think most people do not knock the FCS when they want to move on. However, typically the most vocal do (not always). I personally think it is not that they think that badly of FCS. I think it is more that they don't like their situation so they put the blame squarely on the division or conference instead of their own administration. You know, the Socon just isn't what it used to be. But it is the minority.

Sorry I did not intend to lump all together because it is certainly not the case and as I said I have no problem with schools wanting to move.

Now on the other hand, if you guys have that much in common with Marshall then please go:p xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix

[TheValleyRaider]

Echoing OL FU and Syntax, it's the posters who match their moving up comments with lines like "our fans don't care about these other schools" No need for that sort of stuff. I fully supported WKU in their move up, given their status as a full Sun Belt member it was definately the best thing for them.

That's partially where I take exception to some of the other comments, mostly regarding the benefits of moving up. As has been pointed out, if you want to move up, you need more than just the will, you also need a place to go. Schools like Notre Dame, Navy and Army can cut it as FBS Independents, but the rest of the college football world? Not so much. So really, unless ASU, GSU, or whoever, has already made some contact with C-USA or even the Sun Belt about joining, then you're putting the cart before the horse. Using the two as examples, they're both great programs, they really are. But does that mean they're any sort of lock to be taken into one of these FBS conferences? It doesn't seem that way to me.... xpeacex

[McNeese_beat]

Those conferences moved down, but had not previously been in I-AA and left. And when McNeese jumped from D-II to D-I, I-AA was not in existence at the time, correct? It makes it different. None of those cut the mustard.

The Ivies are a different animal altogether, and even to this day are so.

The argument remains, and nobody has proven otherwise. Every team that has spent time in I-AA, and left for I-A, has not returned to I-AA. For the umpteenth time, I ask why is that. All I get is an artful dodge, or some lame excuse about "ego".

You said exactly what I have said many times, it's all about it being a correct fit for the university. What annoys me is LFN's bashing of I-A as a whole, and trashing those that made the jump as if they made a mistake. They didn't, they just see things differently than LFN does. Which of course makes them wrong. xrolleyesx

The Southland joined Division I in the mid-70s (75 I think) three years before there was a Division I-AA. I-AA was created, I think, for teams who wanted Division I membership, but did not have the resources to fund football to Division I standards. The SLC was not initially in I-AA only because it was not among the teams that the division was specifically created for. By 82, when the Southland did drop down, there was an effort in place to place the smaller I-As with the I-AA teams and keep them separate from what's now the BCS. The SLC made its choice.

So your point is correct, but lacks context. The SLC had only recently moved up from what had been the college division, and only 7-8 years later opted to go to I-AA, which did not exist 8 years before, but returned the Southland members to competition primarily against teams it used to compete against in the college division.

[appfan2008]

The Southland joined Division I in the mid-70s (75 I think) three years before there was a Division I-AA. I-AA was created, I think, for teams who wanted Division I membership, but did not have the resources to fund football to Division I standards. The SLC was not initially in I-AA only because it was not among the teams that the division was specifically created for. By 82, when the Southland did drop down, there was an effort in place to place the smaller I-As with the I-AA teams and keep them separate from what's now the BCS. The SLC made its choice.

So your point is correct, but lacks context. The SLC had only recently moved up from what had been the college division, and only 7-8 years later opted to go to I-AA, which did not exist 8 years before, but returned the Southland members to competition primarily against teams it used to compete against in the college division.


the southern conference did the same thing... they joined IAA about 80 or 81

[Syntax Error]

the southern conference did the same thing... they joined IAA about 80 or 81Yes, in 1973 the Divisions I, II and III were created and the in 1978 D-I was split into I-A and I-AA. The SLC and SOCON both went I-A then moved to I-AA along with others mentioned. So, yes, teams have moved from I-A to I-AA before.

[McNeese_beat]

the southern conference did the same thing... they joined IAA about 80 or 81

That's my point. While it is true that no teams left I-AA then came back to it, it is true that whole conferences left what would become I-AA, only to come back to it in football only.

Let's face it, you look at what was the College Division and you see what is now the FCS, by and large.

[appfan2008]

Yes, in 1973 the Divisions I-II and III were created and the in 1978 D-I was split into I-A and I-AA. The SLC and SOCON both went I-A then moved to I-AA along with others mentioned.

Is that because they thought they would be good enough but they ended up not being that good???

[OL FU]

the southern conference did the same thing... they joined IAA about 80 or 81

82 I believe.

[Syntax Error]

Is that because they thought they would be good enough but they ended up not being that good???No, they were just as good as was mentioned. But even then the BIG BOY status was in place. Plus lots of carrots were placed in front of I-AA like increased TV exposure etc. Those eroded in the ongoing years but are picking back up now.

[appfan2008]

No, they were just as good as was mentioned. But even then the BIG BOY status was in place. Plus lots of carrots were placed in front of I-AA like increased TV exposure etc. Those eroded in the ongoing years but are picking back up now.

yeah i know the tv thing is amazing... app is on tv just about every week these days

[OL FU]

yeah i know the tv thing is amazing... app is on tv just about every week these days

Well in 82 before you were born, TV time was a little tougher to findxlolx

[Syntax Error]

yeah i know the tv thing is amazing... app is on tv just about every week these daysThat and the Internet broke the spell. By the mid-90's fans started boards and sites, by the late '90's all the schools and conferences started sites, by the turn of the century CSN/I-AA.org started constant coverage of the national scene... it has blossomed! xthumbsupx FBS and the BIG BOYS control the media still but it is not so clear cut these days.

[appfan2008]

yes that was before i was born it was actually the year my mom graduated from Duke and married my father... and now i (their eldest child) am getting married next summer.... AMAZING that was a really long time ago...

[appfan2008]

That and the Internet broke the spell. By the mid-90's fans started boards and sites, by the late '90's all the schools and conferences started sites, by the turn of the century CSN/I-AA.org started constant coverage of the national scene... it has blossomed! xthumbsupx FBS and the BIG BOYS control the media still but it is not so clear cut these days.

they may control the BIG media SI ESPN etc. but we have our own media sources as you have pointed out that gives us a great deal of exposure... now fans anywhere in teh world can watch or listen to almost any game they want and get a summary immediately following... amazing stuff it is

[OL FU]

yes that was before i was born it was actually the year my mom graduated from Duke and married my father... and now i (their eldest child) am getting married next summer.... AMAZING that was a really long time ago...

yeah amazing:( xsmiley_wix

[Syntax Error]

... that was a really long time ago...http://www.drawingsociety.com/dscgallery/images/drawingmasters_pics/igor_v_babailov/old_man_lg.jpg

"Pull up a stool and let me tell you about the College Division sonny boy."

[yosef1969]

No, they were just as good as was mentioned. But even then the BIG BOY status was in place. Plus lots of carrots were placed in front of I-AA like increased TV exposure etc. Those eroded in the ongoing years but are picking back up now.


Not as much of a choice as some would imply but the conference as a group did choose to go I-AA.

I was in middle school back then so i'm going on spotty memory and what i've read but weren't there also threats of strict minimum thresholds on attendance and such?

This along with the "incentives" offered at the time that the NCAA failed to deliver on are big reasons many of the folks that have been around long enough resent the NCAA and want to make the move to FBS.

Schools like ASU worked for so long and so hard to get to the highest level to only be given the "choice" to move to I-AA and were sold something that turned out very different than promised.

[AppMan]

you will be a joke at the FBS level, and as i already think that your school in Pigs Ass, Ga is a joke it will be no change in my opinion but the rest of the Nation will share it.

Better than being a joke at the FCS level.

[ButlerGSU]

Better than being a joke at the FCS level.

Don't get a Citadel fan get you down, we all know they suffer from Napoleon Syndrome.

[Saint3333]

The question was "list the number of teams that have moved BACK to this subdivision." Those teams went I-A then moved to I-AA.

Yes there were many teams that were 1-A at first including ASU who moved to 1-AA in 1982. But this was under the assumption that the NCAA would give 1-AA TV games and exposure. That did not occur and exposure and attention received by 1-AA has been slipping as a percentage of media coverage since its inception.

[Saint3333]

This is bashing FCS:
No competition
I-AA [sic] is for smaller and lesser teams
No one cares about I-AA [sic]
I-AA [sic] fails us

Like I said, just say I WANT TO GO BOWLING! No need to say, this place sucks, it's not worthy of us, etc. Coming to the AGS Discussion Board and saying that, is wrong. xpeacex

I agree no need to trash the FCS on the way out, but in turn why trash the programs that choose to leave the FCS. The posters that end up trashing FCS when they leave are usually on the defensive after current FCS members say things like "good like at the bottom of FBS" or just another Buffalo, directional Michigan, etc. team in the waiting. Pot meet Kettle.

[AppMan]

Yes, it was. They made a choice (like Richmond did, and the Ivies) when the divisions came into being to remain at Big College level (I-A) or Small College Level (I-AA). They made the choice to enter into I-A, realized that it was a bad idea, and moved to I-AA.

You need to brush up on the history of 1-aa a bit. Those schools didn't simply decide to move back to 1-aa after "they realized that it was a bad idea." When 1-aa was created in 1978 only 5 conferences - Big Sky, MEAC, OVC, SWAC, Yankee - and a handful of independents decided to accept the demotion. The Ivy League, Mid American, Missouri Valley, Southland, Socon, and some independents (including Richmond) resisted. At a special convention on Dec 3 & 4, 1981 the NCAA adopted a proposal which restructured 1-A and drop kicked 39 schools - 8 from the Ivy League, 6 of 10 Mid American members, 5 of 8 Missouri Valley, 7 Southland, 8 SoCon, and 6 independents - into 1-aa effective September 1, 1982. They DID NOT voluntarily move back down to 1-aa. The MAC used its considerable weight with coaches in the Big Ten to successfully lobby the NCAA for an exemption. The Big Ten agreed to sponsor the MAC by agreeing to schedule a number of games each year with their schools. NO school has made the decision to move back to 1-aa after moving up to 1-A.

[McNeese_beat]

You need to brush up on the history of 1-aa a bit. Those schools didn't simply decide to move back to 1-aa after "they realized that it was a bad idea." When 1-aa was created in 1978 only 5 conferences - Big Sky, MEAC, OVC, SWAC, Yankee - and a handful of independents decided to accept the demotion. The Ivy League, Mid American, Missouri Valley, Southland, Socon, and some independents (including Richmond) resisted. At a special convention on Dec 3 & 4, 1981 the NCAA adopted a proposal which restructured 1-A and drop kicked 39 schools - 8 from the Ivy League, 6 of 10 Mid American members, 5 of 8 Missouri Valley, 7 Southland, 8 SoCon, and 6 independents - into 1-aa effective September 1, 1982. They DID NOT voluntarily move back down to 1-aa. The MAC used its considerable weight with coaches in the Big Ten to successfully lobby the NCAA for an exemption. The Big Ten agreed to sponsor the MAC by agreeing to schedule a number of games each year with their schools. NO school has made the decision to move back to 1-aa after moving up to 1-A.

This is only partially true in McNeese's case. McNeese very much could have stayed in Division I-A in 1982 but did voluntarily opt to go down. The same is probably true of members of the Ivy League like Yale and Harvard.

McNeese became a Division I program in the mid 1970s and when I-AA was created in 1978, the Southland was exempted en masse from a move down to I-AA by the Ivy League's 12-sport exemption (if you sponsored 12 sports, the football attendance and stadium size requirements did not apply).

In 1981 the 12-sport exemption was repealed. At that point, in the Southland Conference, only McNeese and USL met the attendance and stadium size requirements to remain in I-A. USL opted to stay in I-A as an independent. McNeese opted to remain with the SLC and go to I-AA.

I'd imagine the same decision was probably made at a school like Yale. The Yale Bowl is plenty big enough and they were probably still drawing well enough to remain a I-A. But they chose to move down to maintain the integrity of the Ivy League.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is only partially true in McNeese's case. McNeese very much could have stayed in Division I-A in 1982 but did voluntarily opt to go down. The same is probably true of members of the Ivy League like Yale and Harvard.

McNeese became a Division I program in the mid 1970s and when I-AA was created in 1978, the Southland was exempted en masse from a move down to I-AA by the Ivy League's 12-sport exemption (if you sponsored 12 sports, the football attendance and stadium size requirements did not apply).

In 1981 the 12-sport exemption was repealed. At that point, in the Southland Conference, only McNeese and USL met the attendance and stadium size requirements to remain in I-A. USL opted to stay in I-A as an independent. McNeese opted to remain with the SLC and go to I-AA.

I'd imagine the same decision was probably made at a school like Yale. The Yale Bowl is plenty big enough and they were probably still drawing well enough to remain a I-A. But they chose to move down to maintain the integrity of the Ivy League.

My understanding was that Harvard, Yale, Penn (and maybe Princeton) swallowed their desires (Yale did for sure) to stay in "Big College Division" in an effort to keep the Ivy League together - they had to move to FCS to keep their league alive. There's no way Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth or Cornell would have been able to qualify up there with those stadium requirements - it probably would have meant the end of the Ivy League had they insisted on staying.

Since the 1950's the Ivy League has gone through battles and debates amongst each other as to what athletics should be. Notably, Penn was always pushing the envelope with national games, much to the chagrin of the other Ivy League members. But the majority chose to distance themselves from the rest of the college football world as TV (in 1948) started to increase the money in the sport tremendously. From that, the Ivy League imposed "rules" on themselves with explicit separation of admissions and athletics, no postseason play, the prohibition of freshmen playing at varsity level, and no redshirting.

That's interesting, though, that the exemption was probably made for those schools to decide where they wanted to go. But they all made choices: is chasing I-A dreams more important? All these schools clearly had a taste of I-A for those years - and then chose "no", either to keep conference affiliations alive or to pursue cost-containment.

[youwouldno]

Moving down a level at this point, for a failed FBS program, would be the ultimate admission of failure, even if it was a smart move. So it doesn't happen. But that doesn't mean a program is necessarily better off than it would have been in FCS.

Troy was good in the FCS and continues to have some talent in the FBS... they have a nice win or two in the years since they moved up. College football fans don't consider them to be a relevant program but I guess there is some name recognition.

Every program's situation is different. What App St fans don't realize is that they are not really in a position to dramatically improve by moving to FBS. North Carolina is already saturated with programs. Will App St ever out-recruit UNC or NC State? No. Not in a million years. Wake & ECU are around too. There is no free space in the college football market, beyond increased alumni support.

The way it works is basically this: programs, for various reasons, move from FCS to FBS. Some have a good idea of what will happen and others do not. But in any event, their success is determined by environmental factors. Boise had a lot of factors work in their favor... the WAC is a solid mid-major conference, the West has fewer good football programs, Idaho is growing rapidly and the other program has struggled, etc.

When the proper environmental factors aren't present, then a program's aspirations are really irrelevant.

[MplsBison]

Just wanted to be very, very clear to any school who's thinking of moving over to the Sun Belch or MAC: THIS is what you're wading into.


I think UMass or UDelaware would move up IF they got guaranteed membership in the Big East.

[McNeese_beat]

My understanding was that Harvard, Yale, Penn (and maybe Princeton) swallowed their desires (Yale did for sure) to stay in "Big College Division" in an effort to keep the Ivy League together - they had to move to FCS to keep their league alive. There's no way Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth or Cornell would have been able to qualify up there with those stadium requirements - it probably would have meant the end of the Ivy League had they insisted on staying.

Since the 1950's the Ivy League has gone through battles and debates amongst each other as to what athletics should be. Notably, Penn was always pushing the envelope with national games, much to the chagrin of the other Ivy League members. But the majority chose to distance themselves from the rest of the college football world as TV (in 1948) started to increase the money in the sport tremendously. From that, the Ivy League imposed "rules" on themselves with explicit separation of admissions and athletics, no postseason play, the prohibition of freshmen playing at varsity level, and no redshirting.

That's interesting, though, that the exemption was probably made for those schools to decide where they wanted to go. But they all made choices: is chasing I-A dreams more important? All these schools clearly had a taste of I-A for those years - and then chose "no", either to keep conference affiliations alive or to pursue cost-containment.

I won't often say this about McNeese's athletic decisions past, but it made a wise choice based on its understanding that it was thriving based on its rivalries more than it was thriving based on its level of play.

What was important to McNeese was to keep playing games agianst Tech, Lamar, USL, etc. and keep playing for a conference title that meant something in the region. Unfortunately, as the years went by many of the members of the SLC did not see it that way and moved "up" leaving McNeese with an SLC mostly composed of teams that were in Division II or NAIA back when McNeese decided to drop to I-AA.

Now you have a situation where Tech doesn't play any of its old regional rivals and the four ex-SLC teams in the Sun Belt generally don't play the Southland teams and everybody has to travel more and spend more. Louisiana Tech goes to Hawaii every other year, but never makes the 30-minute drive to play Louisiana-Monroe. UL-Lafayette will send its women's basketball team to Denver for a conference game, but it won't send its football team an hour down I-10 to play McNeese.

The long and the short of it is that a lot of regional schools lost sight of what was best for their programs' bottom lines, which was to keep the regional rivals together. McNeese and the top half of the Ivy saw the importance of their long-standing rivalries.

[UDChE89]

I think UMass or UDelaware would move up IF they got guaranteed membership in the Big East.

This is the ONLY way that I'd ever support UD moving up. It's pretty much a no brainer.