PAC 12/MWC Promotion Relegation Idea

[atthewbon]

https://sports.yahoo.com/college-football-pac-12-mountain-west-promotion-relegation-234810955.html?guccounter=1
Not directly FCS related but could be a cool opportunity for several FCS teams. I doubt it happens, but I think it would be genius and generate a ton of interest. The conference has nothing to loose trying. I could see some division like this with promotion/relegation.

Pac 10
Washington st
Oregon st
Boise st
Air Force
Wyoming
Fresno St
San Diego St
San Jose St
Utah St
UNLV


MWC
Colorado St
New Mexico
Hawaii
Nevada
South Dakota St
North Dakota St
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
UC Davis/Sac St

[bonarae]

Absurd idea. Do any of the Big Sky teams meet FBS requirements ATM (e.g. stadium capacity)?

[atthewbon]

I don't believe the 15,000 stadium requirement is really enforced. But regardless, they all have over 15k besides for UC Davis. FWIW Ross Dellenger, the author of the article, only included SDSU and NDSU as additions. I could just see some others making sense, particularly the Montana schools. As has been reported, the Montana and XDSU schools definitely have some interest in an FBS move if it makes sense and are making themselves FBS ready. If something like this is pitched to them no way they'd turn it down. It's probably a long shot from the perspective of the MWC, but if they are looking for innovative ideas, this would generate some buzz. The money probably doesn't work in the short term but I think it could create something unique. The hypothetical top conference would probably be the 5th best and at least occasionally get teams in whatever the CFP ends up being. It's interesting that it's not just a fan rumor but something that has been explored "The relegation/promotion idea is only an idea, for now. While the concept has been explored by many officials in both the Pac-2 and Mountain West, it is only one of a host of possible options in the early stages of examination."

[Professor Chaos]

I'd love it and I know NDSU would jump at an opportunity like that (I'd assume any MVFC/Big Sky school would as well)... I find it very interesting it's being legitimately talked about because there's so much nuance into how a promotion/relegation system would work. How do the other sports handle it? Can they get a decent media deal with the uncertainty around who is in each league year-to-tear? How would they shuffle schedules to avoid impacting OOC games that are set long in advance? Would they preserve rivalries if rivals end up in different leagues? A lot of those questions are address in the article but it just seems like too much uncertainty to make it a legitimate option.

[atthewbon]

I don't follow European soccer leagues that closely, but what I think would make this different is it would be one organization with two tiers, which would make it easier to sign TV deals and distribute revenue (probably one combined deal). It sounds like it would almost operate as one conference with two tiers. I'm assuming it would have to be football only, and the teams would stay in other conferences for their other sports, or just one mega 14-20 team conference for other sports, but that would create other problems. There would be a lot of kinks to iron out and the way revenue gets distributed would be up for a lot of debate, but they don't have much to lose in trying IMO. The article actually does a pretty good job addressing some of the concerns with scheduling, including having guaranteed games between the two tiers, which could help protect rivalries. Still seems like an incredible long shot, but I'd be all for them trying it, even if it doesn't include SDSU, though I hope it would.

[atthewbon]

https://x.com/MattBrownEP/status/1704323715423522972?s=20
IDK if you are familiar with Matt Brown, but this is interesting...
One concern from an FCS team's perspective is what's stopping them from expanding with teams in other G5 leagues. Maybe the money won't be worth the risk?

[kab]

I don’t think South Dakota legislature will allow those 2 schools from splitting up.
any transition should require all sports, if their football is good enough to move up then all sports must go
im sure Hawaii is just itching to fly to the dakotas

[JacksFan40]

I don’t think South Dakota legislature will allow those 2 schools from splitting up.
any transition should require all sports, if their football is good enough to move up then all sports must go
im sure Hawaii is just itching to fly to the dakotas

Flying to the Dakotas isn't any worse then flying to Laramie, Wyoming, just a little further.

Either way under this scenario I'd assume the MWC would also invite NMSU and UTEP as well, meaning it would be 12 teams and could split into divisions, making Hawaii vs either Dakotas much less common.

[MR. CHICKEN]

.....HAWAII..FLEW TA VANDERBILT...TA OPEN THE SEASON.....xwhistlex....AWK!

[kab]

.....HAWAII..FLEW TA VANDERBILT...TA OPEN THE SEASON.....xwhistlex....AWK!
Let’s see, Nashville Tennessee or the Dakotas
and probably a million $ payday

[MR. CHICKEN]

Let’s see, Nashville Tennessee or the Dakotas
and probably a million $ payday

...SO WHAT IS NORFF DAKOTA STATE......GONNA PAY HAWAII.........COUPLE BARRELS UH CRUDE ???........AWK?

[wapiti]

https://sports.yahoo.com/college-football-pac-12-mountain-west-promotion-relegation-234810955.html?guccounter=1
Not directly FCS related but could be a cool opportunity for several FCS teams. I doubt it happens, but I think it would be genius and generate a ton of interest. The conference has nothing to loose trying. I could see some division like this with promotion/relegation.

Pac 10
Washington st
Oregon st
Boise st
Air Force
Wyoming
Fresno St
San Diego St
San Jose St
Utah St
UNLV


MWC
Colorado St
New Mexico
Hawaii
Nevada
South Dakota St
North Dakota St
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
UC Davis/Sac St

Swap UNLV and Colorado State

[ElCid]

I thought one statement in the article was more telling than any other:

“It’s time we admit what college football is: an entertainment product,” said one Mountain West administrator."

This is where they will fall on their face. By entertainment what they really mean is money. When money is the "central" factor in making decisions instead of looking at the common interest of peer institutions and the benefits for "student" athletes, that is when it really starts coming across as a pure business decision. It's obviously been building for years, decades. It's also when it starts to fall apart. Sure they may make money, so they think that equates to success. Ultimately, those that go down this path are tearing apart the fabric of what "college" was all about.

Looking at and considering money and costs is different than making it a primary goal. And this is what this looks like. I mean, comparing it to and looking at modeling it on some professional English soccer league? Really? There are those who have somehow co-opted certain college sports for their own benefit and they are sucking in institutions by various means. The NCAA has surrendered all its authority and they seem to simply be along for the ride.

This is one reason FCS appeals to so many. They have not been as affected, along with lower divisions. It's where the basic appeal and support of college sports by its student bodies and alumni remain truer. This obviously is due to the money involved. We just aren't worth the effort by those looking to profit by it. But now that they totally converted the big boys, will we now be relegated to a farm system for those big boys. With the portal now in place, how long before the "professional" schools start poaching the cream of sophomore performers at lower schools that they missed in recruiting. It's coming with promises of NIL and who knows what other incentives.

I may be a bit cynical in my thinking, but the direction the sport is heading is disturbing. The type of thinking in this article is evidence enough. I also think it is a done deal. There is no going back unfortunately.

[atthewbon]

I don’t think South Dakota legislature will allow those 2 schools from splitting up.
any transition should require all sports, if their football is good enough to move up then all sports must go
im sure Hawaii is just itching to fly to the dakotas

Idk anything about what the state legislature would do, but it would be idiotic for them to block this move if it's available. IDK if it would require all sports, Hawaii isn't in the MWC for all sports. Once you're on a plane you're on a plane.

[atthewbon]

Swap UNLV and Colorado State

I based it purely on the standings from last year. If they ever try something like this, I have no idea how they'd decide who is in each tier.

[atthewbon]

I thought one statement in the article was more telling than any other:

“It’s time we admit what college football is: an entertainment product,” said one Mountain West administrator."

This is where they will fall on their face. By entertainment what they really mean is money. When money is the "central" factor in making decisions instead of looking at the common interest of peer institutions and the benefits for "student" athletes, that is when it really starts coming across as a pure business decision. It's obviously been building for years, decades. It's also when it starts to fall apart. Sure they may make money, so they think that equates to success. Ultimately, those that go down this path are tearing apart the fabric of what "college" was all about.

Looking at and considering money and costs is different than making it a primary goal. And this is what this looks like. I mean, comparing it to and looking at modeling it on some professional English soccer league? Really? There are those who have somehow co-opted certain college sports for their own benefit and they are sucking in institutions by various means. The NCAA has surrendered all its authority and they seem to simply be along for the ride.

This is one reason FCS appeals to so many. They have not been as affected, along with lower divisions. It's where the basic appeal and support of college sports by its student bodies and alumni remain truer. This obviously is due to the money involved. We just aren't worth the effort by those looking to profit by it. But now that they totally converted the big boys, will we now be relegated to a farm system for those big boys. With the portal now in place, how long before the "professional" schools start poaching the cream of sophomore performers at lower schools that they missed in recruiting. It's coming with promises of NIL and who knows what other incentives.

I may be a bit cynical in my thinking, but the direction the sport is heading is disturbing. The type of thinking in this article is evidence enough. I also think it is a done deal. There is no going back unfortunately.

I understand why this rubs people the wrong way, but they aren't wrong about it being an entertainment product. As a younger college football fan this has been true of college football my whole life, what's changed is they are now saying it openly. College football hasn't been a beacon of amateurism for some time, and as a fan I don't think I really want it to be.
While the sport is changing, I actually think the transfer portal will end up causing more parity than less. College football will never be a sport with a lot of parity and the Alabama's of the world will always have the best players, but the transfer portal will hurt the depth of many of these top teams, which was one of their biggest advantages. As a Maryland fan, an anecdotal example that comes to mind is Taulia Tagovailoa, if the transfer portal doesn't exist he is probably the starting QB at Alabama this year. Talented players who don't want to be stuck down in the depth chart transfer and showcase their talents at smaller schools as opposed to be depth pieces at the biggest of programs. While some previously underrated talent will move up, if you look at the numbers, more players flow the other direction.

[ST_Lawson]

With the portal now in place, how long before the "professional" schools start poaching the cream of sophomore performers at lower schools that they missed in recruiting.

Uh...like negative a couple years. This is the FCS now. If you're good, you get poached. It's always been that way with coaches, but now it's the current/new reality of players in the FCS.

[Professor Chaos]

I thought one statement in the article was more telling than any other:

“It’s time we admit what college football is: an entertainment product,” said one Mountain West administrator."

This is where they will fall on their face. By entertainment what they really mean is money. When money is the "central" factor in making decisions instead of looking at the common interest of peer institutions and the benefits for "student" athletes, that is when it really starts coming across as a pure business decision. It's obviously been building for years, decades. It's also when it starts to fall apart. Sure they may make money, so they think that equates to success. Ultimately, those that go down this path are tearing apart the fabric of what "college" was all about.

Looking at and considering money and costs is different than making it a primary goal. And this is what this looks like. I mean, comparing it to and looking at modeling it on some professional English soccer league? Really? There are those who have somehow co-opted certain college sports for their own benefit and they are sucking in institutions by various means. The NCAA has surrendered all its authority and they seem to simply be along for the ride.

This is one reason FCS appeals to so many. They have not been as affected, along with lower divisions. It's where the basic appeal and support of college sports by its student bodies and alumni remain truer. This obviously is due to the money involved. We just aren't worth the effort by those looking to profit by it. But now that they totally converted the big boys, will we now be relegated to a farm system for those big boys. With the portal now in place, how long before the "professional" schools start poaching the cream of sophomore performers at lower schools that they missed in recruiting. It's coming with promises of NIL and who knows what other incentives.

I may be a bit cynical in my thinking, but the direction the sport is heading is disturbing. The type of thinking in this article is evidence enough. I also think it is a done deal. There is no going back unfortunately.
Money is far and away the main factor that drives all of these realignment decisions - not acknowledging that is inviting your own demise if you're an FBS league. Is it hurting the game? I don't know if I'd say that with college football.... I'm seeing no evidence that big-time college football interest is dwindling depsite all of the crying about increased transfers, NIL, FCOA, and now realignment hysteria "ruining the game".

I also don't buy that the FCS in increasing in popularity because of it - at least at NDSU I don't think interest in the FCS has ever been lower. I can't speak for other schools/fan bases but this would be an absolute home run for the NDSU admin if they could get in on this type of deal and not a moment too soon given the waning fan interest here.

[MSUBobcat]

I don’t think South Dakota legislature will allow those 2 schools from splitting up.
any transition should require all sports, if their football is good enough to move up then all sports must go
im sure Hawaii is just itching to fly to the dakotas

I don't think Hawaii is driving the bus.... Nice place for teams to go play, but I can't imagine anyone is going, "What does Hawaii think about the idea? They're the big wheel at this table." I would think it's more of, this is what we're doing, tag along or try the independent route.

[kab]

Ndsu is no where close to crude oil
they have beats and potatoes, maybe that works

[ElCid]

Money is far and away the main factor that drives all of these realignment decisions - not acknowledging that is inviting your own demise if you're an FBS league. Is it hurting the game? I don't know if I'd say that with college football.... I'm seeing no evidence that big-time college football interest is dwindling depsite all of the crying about increased transfers, NIL, FCOA, and now realignment hysteria "ruining the game".

I also don't buy that the FCS in increasing in popularity because of it - at least at NDSU I don't think interest in the FCS has ever been lower. I can't speak for other schools/fan bases but this would be an absolute home run for the NDSU admin if they could get in on this type of deal and not a moment too soon given the waning fan interest here.

Well I didn't explain that correctly. You were looking at it via a general fan who may or may not be closely affiliated with a school. I was really talking about a student, or alum where you will get rabid support. That includes attendance and donations and just general dedicated support through thick and thin. We've seen fan support fall off for years now across the board. Everyone points to a different culture, more distractions, or the internet. But a big factor is a growing disconnect between the fans and what has become an industry. This is less of a problem at smaller schools, relatively speaking, compared to bigger schools "who aren't the huge P5 powerhouses." Yeah, those big boys are doing fine. But so are lots of schools not hip deep in the industry. It's why I think NDSU has such good support, generally speaking. Along with schools line Montana, Delaware and many others. And look at all the Div II and III schools.

And as someone mentioned above, that they don't care about the amateur nature of the sport, I think the grassroots support will slowly fade away as amateurism fades. I believe THAT is/was one of its primary reasons for maintaining support over the years. I have zero interest in supporting what are basically professional athletes. It's why I stopped watching most of the Olympic and have little interest in all professional sports. I know I'm not the only one who feels like this in regard to college sports.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't think Hawaii is driving the bus.... Nice place for teams to go play, but I can't imagine anyone is going, "What does Hawaii think about the idea? They're the big wheel at this table." I would think it's more of, this is what we're doing, tag along or try the independent route.

HAHA. Also Hawaii was in a league with Louisiana Tech at one point. All their road trips are 3K+ mile flights. They'll manage a trip to Fargo just fine.

[kab]

Would this be a money maker or loser for new teams?
ndsu is losing money and students now, I believe Montana has been losing students too, Mt. St is gaining. Don’t know about SD st.
I have talked to some ND legislators that have said enough funding sports when schools are losing money and oil money will not fund this in ND
I guess more fund raising.

[NDSU1980]

Would this be a money maker or loser for new teams?
ndsu is losing money and students now, I believe Montana has been losing students too, Mt. St is gaining. Don’t know about SD st.
I have talked to some ND legislators that have said enough funding sports when schools are losing money and oil money will not fund this in ND
I guess more fund raising.
Attendance would pick up with fresh meat coming into the Fargodome. That will help and yes it will take more fundraising but Bison fans have always stepped up when asked.

If the home schedule remains as poor as it is this year attendance will keep dropping.

[kab]

Enlighten us, how are you getting money from joe Biden

[Professor Chaos]

Would this be a money maker or loser for new teams?
ndsu is losing money and students now, I believe Montana has been losing students too, Mt. St is gaining. Don’t know about SD st.
I have talked to some ND legislators that have said enough funding sports when schools are losing money and oil money will not fund this in ND
I guess more fund raising.
Too bad those state legislators don't have the same fiscally responsible attitude towards the tiny 4 year state schools in places like Valley City and Mayville who get much more state funding per full-time student than NDSU does.

Regardless, NDSU will not be getting any help from the state when it comes to funding an FBS move.

[MSUBobcat]

Would this be a money maker or loser for new teams?
ndsu is losing money and students now, I believe Montana has been losing students too, Mt. St is gaining. Don’t know about SD st.
I have talked to some ND legislators that have said enough funding sports when schools are losing money and oil money will not fund this in ND
I guess more fund raising.

Montana has started gaining students again, but still WAAAAY down from their peak. Just got an email from "Prez Cruzado" today, MSU set a new enrollment record with just under 17k, making it the largest university in the 4 state region of MT, WY, and the Dakotas (per the email, I did no fact checking).

Whether or not it would be a money maker or loser would depend on the media package, and I suppose whether or not those schools do better in pumpkin pushing than sending the AQ to lose in round 1 in March Madness (I don't really follow bouncy ball).

[MSUBobcat]

Attendance would pick up with fresh meat coming into the Fargodome. That will help and yes it will take more fundraising but Bison fans have always stepped up when asked.

If the home schedule remains as poor as it is this year attendance will keep dropping.

Your home schedule could be Utah Tech, Stetson, Portland State, Cal Poly, NAU and EWU. Just sayin'. xcoffeex In looking at it, we opted to just get tix to the Gold Rush against UTU and Senior Day vs EWU, rather than season tix. But everything still sold out in minutes, so not everyone felt like I did.

[ElCid]

Montana has started gaining students again, but still WAAAAY down from their peak. Just got an email from "Prez Cruzado" today, MSU set a new enrollment record with just under 17k, making it the largest university in the 4 state region of MT, WY, and the Dakotas (per the email, I did no fact checking).

Whether or not it would be a money maker or loser would depend on the media package, and I suppose whether or not those schools do better in pumpkin pushing than sending the AQ to lose in round 1 in March Madness (I don't really follow bouncy ball).

Lots of schools (most?) Were stagnant or experienced declines with the virus/economy. The demographics point to a long term issue overall. Some schools in growth areas will do ok, but not overall. I would be surprised if we lose 5-10 FCS teams in the next 10 years.

[MSUBobcat]

Lots of schools (most?) Were stagnant or experienced declines with the virus/economy. The demographics point to a long term issue overall. Some schools in growth areas will do ok, but not overall. I would be surprised if we lose 5-10 FCS teams in the next 10 years.

Demographics probably point to declining college enrollment (less people in the younger generations). But at the same time, the percentage of people getting degrees is much higher. Enrollment at 4-year public schools has been steadily increasing for 3 decades (https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/college-enrollment-decline/#:~:text=Two%2Dyear%20public%20colleges%20lost,abo ut%2054%25%20of%20their%20enrollment.), until the COVID decline which I expect to reverse. It appears that this is being driven by people thinking they need more than a 2-yr degree. 4-year private non-profit colleges have been seeing a slight decline (3%) even before COVID.

https://i.postimg.cc/rwHwrj5T/Capture.jpg

[jacksfan29!]

I don’t think South Dakota legislature will allow those 2 schools from splitting up.
any transition should require all sports, if their football is good enough to move up then all sports must go
im sure Hawaii is just itching to fly to the dakotas

I don't think you have any idea, and Hawaii has little say about anything that occurs in the MWC. Besides, they fly to Cheyenne.

[jacksfan29!]

It would never be that big, 16 or 18 is the magic number. The problem is it will never fly. Too many bad programs (UNM, HAWAII, UNLV) would never agree to it. The reason WSU and OSU are interested, they want the best of the MWC, but can't get that due to the exit fee structure. A promotion relegation model would be a boon for football at the G5 level in the west. It would driving ratings, increase media rights. But it would also put some schools at risk of being afterthoughts while allowing others (NDSU and SDSU) to finally get the attention they deserve.

[Professor Chaos]

Reading about this over the last few days it actually makes a lot of sense why this idea is being entertained if you put yourselves in the shoes of the various schools involved.

Normally it's the "big schools" that would shoot this down since they don't want to risk relegation from the upper echelon but Oregon St and Washington St are desperate to keep the Pac alive and the ideal scenario for them is to take the top half (or more) of the MWC and reform it. They can't do that, at least not quickly enough, with the $34M per school MWC exit fee so this would be a way to essentially do the same thing while bypassing the exit fees.

Upper tier MWC teams (and let's be honest I'm sure more than half of the MWC views themselves as "upper tier" in the conference) like it because it gives them the ability to raise their athletic profile by leaving behind the dead weight in the MWC and building the best western focused athletic conference possible of the remaining teams not in the P4.

Lower tier MWC teams even have to be intrigued by it because it gives them upward mobility that is controlled completely by their performance on the field and not the normal factors like media market and facilities.

The big question still has to be financial uncertainty year to year but if they could come up with a creative way to ensure that schools get a financial parachute after being relegated it's not crazy to think that it could get support from any profile school involved here.

[atthewbon]

Reading about this over the last few days it actually makes a lot of sense why this idea is being entertained if you put yourselves in the shoes of the various schools involved.

Normally it's the "big schools" that would shoot this down since they don't want to risk relegation from the upper echelon but Oregon St and Washington St are desperate to keep the Pac alive and the ideal scenario for them is to take the top half (or more) of the MWC and reform it. They can't do that, at least not quickly enough, with the $34M per school MWC exit fee so this would be a way to essentially do the same thing while bypassing the exit fees.

Upper tier MWC teams (and let's be honest I'm sure more than half of the MWC views themselves as "upper tier" in the conference) like it because it gives them the ability to raise their athletic profile by leaving behind the dead weight in the MWC and building the best western focused athletic conference possible of the remaining teams not in the P4.

Lower tier MWC teams even have to be intrigued by it because it gives them upward mobility that is controlled completely by their performance on the field and not the normal factors like media market and facilities.

The big question still has to be financial uncertainty year to year but if they could come up with a creative way to ensure that schools get a financial parachute after being relegated it's not crazy to think that it could get support from any profile school involved here.

Yea I think it makes a lot of sense for everyone given the points you outlined. I think the way to lessen the fears of being "left behind" is have one media rights deal for both tiers. Have the higher tier make more, but not substantially more to leave the lower tier behind. It's a difficult balance, but I think it would emphasize that this is being designed with all teams interests in mind. No way this conference gets even remotely close to the type of money the ACC or Big 12 get, but if the new idea would get more than the status quo, I could see the lower tier MWC teams supporting it. Plus if they can find a way to keep the Pac12 name and branding, the possibility of playing under that banner wouldn't hurt (even though it doesn't mean the same thing). Still seems like an incredible long shot but I really think it would be cool and could work.

[uni88]

It would never be that big, 16 or 18 is the magic number. The problem is it will never fly. Too many bad programs (UNM, HAWAII, UNLV) would never agree to it. The reason WSU and OSU are interested, they want the best of the MWC, but can't get that due to the exit fee structure. A promotion relegation model would be a boon for football at the G5 level in the west. It would driving ratings, increase media rights. But it would also put some schools at risk of being afterthoughts while allowing others (NDSU and SDSU) to finally get the attention they deserve.

If they push too hard those "bad" programs have to worry about Oregon State and Washington State making a pitch to 9+ MWC teams to join the PAC. I believe the MWC can be dissolved without fees if 9 teams vote to do so.

[Tank Edwards]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/pac-12-expansion-on-the-table-talks-of-promotion-relegation-system-in-future/ar-AA1gYC76?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=63718640173f49f4abe5e8a327f8bcd4&ei=8

[Tank Edwards]

Obviously, since the Mountain West is at 12 football members and there are only two Pac-12 teams, the expansion would be in order to get up to 16 teams. Dellenger cited both South Dakota State and North Dakota State as the top candidates. He did explain that they or whoever would join would have to start in the lower division, but how the other teams are decided is a work in progress.

[ST_Lawson]

Obviously, since the Mountain West is at 12 football members and there are only two Pac-12 teams, the expansion would be in order to get up to 16 teams. Dellenger cited both South Dakota State and North Dakota State as the top candidates. He did explain that they or whoever would join would have to start in the lower division, but how the other teams are decided is a work in progress.

Geographically, I would think Montana and Montana State would be closer (and also very good candidates), but then again, maybe everyone just flies everywhere out there anyway.

[uni88]

Geographically, I would think Montana and Montana State would be closer (and also very good candidates), but then again, maybe everyone just flies everywhere out there anyway.

Montana and Montana St would be excellent candidates.

What about Tulsa or any of the Texas FBS programs not with a P5 conference rather than an FCS program?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Montana has started gaining students again, but still WAAAAY down from their peak. Just got an email from "Prez Cruzado" today, MSU set a new enrollment record with just under 17k, making it the largest university in the 4 state region of MT, WY, and the Dakotas (per the email, I did no fact checking).

Whether or not it would be a money maker or loser would depend on the media package, and I suppose whether or not those schools do better in pumpkin pushing than sending the AQ to lose in round 1 in March Madness (I don't really follow bouncy ball).

The parallel growth of Montana State and Bozeman is incredible! It boggles my mind that Montana State is nearly the same size as Kansas State at this point! When I lived in Bozema a decade ago things were really starting to blow up. With that in mind, I have not been back since the end of the summer 2014 so given the amount of time that has passed, I can only imagine the further changes!

The amount of money coming into Gallatin County combined with the area's natural beauty has made MSU a legitimate destination school. MSU's MPA program is a big reason I went to Bozeman unfortunately there was a hangup over instate/out of state tuition costs so I opted against enrolling. Ended up paying more anyway at DePaul...lol.

U of Montana's enrollment had dropped below 7k iirc which is hard to fathom. I think Missoula's reputation has fallen a bit over the last 10-15 years which is a shame because that part of Montana is very much awesome too!

[MSUBobcat]

The parallel growth of Montana State and Bozeman is incredible! It boggles my mind that Montana State is nearly the same size as Kansas State at this point! When I lived in Bozema a decade ago things were really starting to blow up. With that in mind, I have not been back since the end of the summer 2014 so given the amount of time that has passed, I can only imagine the further changes!

The amount of money coming into Gallatin County combined with the area's natural beauty has made MSU a legitimate destination school. MSU's MPA program is a big reason I went to Bozeman unfortunately there was a hangup over instate/out of state tuition costs so I opted against enrolling. Ended up paying more anyway at DePaul...lol.

U of Montana's enrollment had dropped below 7k iirc which is hard to fathom. I think Missoula's reputation has fallen a bit over the last 10-15 years which is a shame because that part of Montana is very much awesome too!

Things started to blow up my sophomore year (1999). Bozeman and Gallatin county have about doubled in the 25 years since I started school there and enrollment has increased about 45%. It always seemed like a destination school to me, as many of my friends were out of staters (VT, PA, MA all on my floor of about 50 freshman year, along with the usual suspects from the region, WA, ND, etc.). I think a big part of the school's growth comes from alum donations lately, which elevates the quality of education. Norm Asbjornson pledged $50M for the College of Engineering in 2014 (you may have been here around that time), Greg Gianforte recently donated $50M for a computer science building and Mark and Robyn Jones $101M to the College of Nursing (largest to a college of nursing in the US). It seems like every year I go on campus there's a new building. MSU also had a record $230M in research expenditures last year, the first time it topped $200M.

If lil brother had been keeping up, maybe we'd be more attractive to the PAC-2/MWC merger xsmiley_wix

[jacksfan29!]

Things started to blow up my sophomore year (1999). Bozeman and Gallatin county have about doubled in the 25 years since I started school there and enrollment has increased about 45%. It always seemed like a destination school to me, as many of my friends were out of staters (VT, PA, MA all on my floor of about 50 freshman year, along with the usual suspects from the region, WA, ND, etc.). I think a big part of the school's growth comes from alum donations lately, which elevates the quality of education. Norm Asbjornson pledged $50M for the College of Engineering in 2014 (you may have been here around that time), Greg Gianforte recently donated $50M for a computer science building and Mark and Robyn Jones $101M to the College of Nursing (largest to a college of nursing in the US). It seems like every year I go on campus there's a new building. MSU also had a record $230M in research expenditures last year, the first time it topped $200M.

If lil brother had been keeping up, maybe we'd be more attractive to the PAC-2/MWC merger xsmiley_wix

I know a lot of kids from Colorado who have chosen Montana State in the last several years. I can tell you, they are not choosing the school for the high quality education, they are choosing it for two reasons. Close proximity to skiing, and a reputation for partying, including easy access to the mother weed our state, unfortunately is so well know for. MSU has become one of two new hip out of state party schools, San Diego State being the other. Not saying the education, if you take advantage of it is not quality, I'm sure it is. I'm just telling you what we see from those choosing to attend from our area of the country.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Things started to blow up my sophomore year (1999). Bozeman and Gallatin county have about doubled in the 25 years since I started school there and enrollment has increased about 45%. It always seemed like a destination school to me, as many of my friends were out of staters (VT, PA, MA all on my floor of about 50 freshman year, along with the usual suspects from the region, WA, ND, etc.). I think a big part of the school's growth comes from alum donations lately, which elevates the quality of education. Norm Asbjornson pledged $50M for the College of Engineering in 2014 (you may have been here around that time), Greg Gianforte recently donated $50M for a computer science building and Mark and Robyn Jones $101M to the College of Nursing (largest to a college of nursing in the US). It seems like every year I go on campus there's a new building. MSU also had a record $230M in research expenditures last year, the first time it topped $200M.

If lil brother had been keeping up, maybe we'd be more attractive to the PAC-2/MWC merger xsmiley_wix

Montana State's $230M in research expenditures puts the institution in some excellent company! Making that figure all the more impressive is MSU's size relative to those other flagship and/or land-grant institutions who are 2x or more the size. At this point I think MSU has the institutional equity and overall positive inertia to position itself in-line with the top public institutions in the west academically and athletically.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Why would a kid from CO go to MT for skiing and weed? Why pay the extra cost of out of state tuition for 2 things that CO has more of? Where are you seeing that MSU is one of two "hip out of state party schools"? I mean... when I was there we knew how to throw down and were frequently in High Times (it's why I chose Roskie Hall - "High in the Sky, Towel the door it's the 11th floor" xlolx). But I have never heard of it being known as a top party school. xdontknowx

Montana State to me feels like the University of Vermont of the west. Great views, great vibe, and a highly rewarding college experience (literally and figuratively). Nothing wrong with that. I never looked at MSU as a party school either. Especially relative to other state school's I have spent time at. The area creates all sorts of interests/people going in different directions. Way more to do than just party....

[MSUBobcat]

Montana State to me feels like the University of Vermont of the west. Great views, great vibe, and a highly rewarding college experience (literally and figuratively). Nothing wrong with that. I never looked at MSU as a party school either. Especially relative to other state school's I have spent time at. The area creates all sorts of interests/people going in different directions. Way more to do than just party....

It's a mecca for fly fishermen and there is abundant rock climbing, hiking and mountain biking (not positive about the last one but knew several people with bikes that were more valuable than the cars they drove!).

[TribeGuy]

I am trying to keep my post about the FCS. Not just "Sports Talk".

Promotion/Relegation is a very interesting aspect of English League Football and European club competition. At first glance, it seems to be a meritocracy. Hard work from the club elevates status. But, look again. The Premier League broke with the English Football League because of revenue. Some Premier League clubs want to leave to join a European Super League, besides the bi-annual Champions League (best of all European club champs). They couldn't do it due to legal matters and fans' allegiances to their rivals. That's a mouth full to explain - It's all about revenue!

Global revenue (merch and TV deals) has overrun the consideration for local, dedicated fans. There is an athletic "arms race" also. Star footballers come and go as the club owners jack-up salaries to maintain promotion. Clubs bare little resemblance to the personnel from just a couple of years ago.

The NFL and Major League baseball had to start salary caps, just to keep brands like the Dallas Cowboys and NY Yankees from winning championships every year. The NHL had to have revenue sharing just to avoid league clubs going bankrupt every 3 years.

College FB/BB revenue is the reality. To hide my head in the sand is naive. I do believe FB/BB revenue supports other college sports.

Our FCS football should remain unique. Merit-based, local and proud. Not professional nor minor league. We face challenges. As others have brought up - state, geographical, and alumni financing differences create a mind-boggling situation to maintain a national championship. Still, we should try.

CHOOSE FCS FANS OVER A REVENUE MODEL