Road Warriors

[ChickenMan]

There has recently been a LOT of complaining that the CAA and to a lesser extent.. the SoCon.. have unfairly benefited from favorable regional playoff matchups. While that may be true to some extent.. there is another factor that weights greatly against the CAA come playoff time and that is the number of games played on the road vs the number of home games. Of the so called 'power' leagues.. the CAA has.. by FAR.. played the largest percentage of their games on the road and that fact would seem to totally mitigate any so called 'regional' advantage. That trend seems to be holding true once again this year's playoffs.. as after next weeks games.. the CAA will have played three at home vs five on the road.

Here's the current breakdown of playoff games.. home vs away.. by conference.. up to and including next weeks playoff games.


Big Sky.. (+18)

home - 41
away - 23


Gateway.. (+12)

home - 51
away - 39


So Con.. (+37)

home - 74
away - 37


Southland.. (-1)

home - 27
away - 28


CAA.. (-14)

home - 40
away - 54

[Appdad]

What is the data you are using?

[ChickenMan]

What is the data you are using?


all-time playoff games.. home vs away

[Houndawg]

CAA get lots of teams in at the end of the selection. You can't give them ALL home games.

[DFW HOYA]

Patriot.. (-15)

Home - 4
Away - 19

Coincedence?

[biobengal]

I prefer to live in the present. IN THE PRESENT we all know UMass, Delaware, and Richmond received a free pass to the second round.

[FCS Preview]

ChickenMan,

I applaud your research. Could you tell us how many teams are represented in each conference? For example, the Big Sky had 64 total games. How many teams made up those games? (Count Montana 18 times, if they made the playoffs 18 times, for example)

Thanks!

[JMU-MRD-DAD]

ChickenMan,

I applaud your research. Could you tell us how many teams are represented in each conference? For example, the Big Sky had 64 total games. How many teams made up those games? (Count Montana 18 times, if they made the playoffs 18 times, for example)

Thanks!

.......I think the team breakdown was done in another post not too long ago.....

[Saint3333]

I don't believe it's a home vs. away debate, more quality of competition.

The CAA benefits from playing the Patriot, MEAC, and to some extent the OVC AQs more often than any other conference. These opponents in the past 6-7 years are weaker than the 2nd or 3rd team from the "Power Conferences". Although there is one CAA team, JMU, that gets screwed every year because of this regionalization system.

End regionalization now, JMU didn't deserve an away game at ASU yesterday. Wofford nor Montana deserved that game yesterday either. What would the NCAA basketball tournament look like if they used this systemxbangx.

[biobengal]

End regionalization now, JMU didn't deserve an away game at ASU yesterday. Wofford nor Montana deserved that game yesterday either. What would the NCAA basketball tournament look like if they used this systemxbangx.

A final four of UConn, BC, Villanova, and Syracuse. xoopsx

[ChickenMan]

ChickenMan,

I applaud your research. Could you tell us how many teams are represented in each conference? For example, the Big Sky had 64 total games. How many teams made up those games? (Count Montana 18 times, if they made the playoffs 18 times, for example)

Thanks!



I don't have those figures.. but here are the current (up to & including next week) individual team numbers on some of the top FCS playoff performers:


ASU..

home - 18
road - 10


Delaware..

home - 16
road - 12


Furman..

home - 18
road - 10


GSU..

home - 32
road - 10


JMU..

home - 2
road - 10


UMass..

home - 4
road - 10


McNeese St..

home - 15
road - 8


Montana..

home - 29
road - 6


UNI..

home - 15
road - 13


YSU..

home - 16
road - 10

[DFW HOYA]

The CAA benefits from playing the Patriot, MEAC, and to some extent the OVC AQs more often than any other conference. These opponents in the past 6-7 years are weaker than the 2nd or 3rd team from the "Power Conferences".

The Patriot team seems to get a de facto road game at a CAA almost every year--when a PL team got a home game to start (e.g., Colgate, 2003), good things followed.

Would UMass have been a cinch if it were playing in the Bronx? Maybe not.

[ChickenMan]

I don't believe it's a home vs. away debate, more quality of competition.





Considering the 'home' team probably wins at a 65% or higher rate come playoff time.. it's totally disingenuous to discount the home field advantage.

[ChickenMan]

Just did a quick check.. so the numbers be not be 100% accurate.. but if not.. they are very close. Since 1997.. playoff wins.. home vs away


Home - 100

Away - 48

home teams win at over a 67% rate.

[Sam Adams]

I prefer to live in the present. IN THE PRESENT we all know UMass, Delaware, and Richmond received a free pass to the second round.

Why are you only mentioning the CAA teams? What about Montana, UNI, SIU, Mcneese - on paper they all looked to be favorites in their games. Truth is that there are very few blow outs. Anything can happen on any given saturday and there are no free passes to the second round. I was at the game in Amherst yesterday - Fordham played their hearts out and played hard for 60 minutes. That was not free pass to the second round and its frankly an insult to Fordham to diminish their effort and talents.

What other teams do you think should have been in the playoffs???

DSU was 10-1 and was MEAC Champion.
EKU was undefeated in OVC play and OVC Champion.
Fordham was the Champion of the Patriot League.

Would you not allow these league champions to compete in the playoffs? Puhleaze.........xcoffeex

[FCS Preview]

Just did a quick check.. so the numbers be not be 100% accurate.. but if not.. they are very close. Since 1997.. playoff wins.. home vs away


Home - 100

Away - 48

home teams win at over a 67% rate.

Do you know the breakdown in the quarter and semi-finals?
I would imagine home teams win more in the 1st round, because they are the best teams that usually get home games over weaker ones.

In the 2nd and 3rd rounds, the teams should be more closely matched, so I wonder how many times the home team wins in those scenarios.

[ChickenMan]

Do you know the breakdown in the quarter and semi-finals?
I would imagine home teams win more in the 1st round, because they are the best teams that usually get home games over weaker ones.

In the 2nd and 3rd rounds, the teams should be more closely matched, so I wonder how many times the home team wins in those scenarios.



38-21 for the 'home' team.. over 64%

[biobengal]

DSU was 10-1 and was MEAC Champion.
EKU was undefeated in OVC play and OVC Champion.
Fordham was the Champion of the Patriot League.

Would you not allow these league champions to compete in the playoffs? Puhleaze.........xcoffeex

Well exchuuze me. Ask the champs of the SoCon, BSC, and Southland who they would rather play? Strange, the only CAA teams that won were at home against the "so-called" non power conferences. xcoffeex

[ChickenMan]

Well exchuuze me. Ask the champs of the SoCon, BSC, and Southland who they would rather play? Strange, the only CAA teams that won were at home against the "so-called" non power conferences. xcoffeex

please.. check the above 'Road Warrior' thread.. the CAA has won more road playoff games than ANY other FCS league and it's not even close...

[Sam Adams]

Well exchuuze me. Ask the champs of the SoCon, BSC, and Southland who they would rather play? Strange, the only CAA teams that won were at home against the "so-called" non power conferences. xcoffeex

Massachusetts was on the wrong end of the selection bracket for decades. This year Mass won the CAA and got a home game in the 1st Rd against a tough Fordham team. Apparently that is not good enough for you - so who would you have had the Committee send to us instead of Fordham which is the easiest matchup since its driving distance ???

Delaware played DSU - driving distance matchup. Plus the whole controversy etc. Again if you don't like that matchup then propose an alternative that makes sense.

Richmond v. EKU Driving distance. Richmond KY v. Richmond VA - Richmond is CAA Co-Champs.

Instead of complaining and bitching tell us specifically what you would have done and why your proposal is more fair and makes more sense from a travel perspective.

[biobengal]

please.. check the above 'Road Warrior' thread.. the CAA has won more road playoff games than ANY other FCS league and it's not even close...


Congrats, the CAA is the best conference in the land, no, the universe. Actually, I do believe the are the best. However, we can all agree that some conferences are better than others..... right? Regionalism has placed certain conferences in the laps of others..... right? That's it, that's all I have. So, in this instance.... am I right?

[FCS Preview]

38-21 for the 'home' team.. over 64%

Great stats. Thanks, man.

[ChickenMan]

Congrats, the CAA is the best conference in the land, no, the universe. Actually, I do believe the are the best. However, we can all agree that some conferences are better than others..... right? Regionalism has placed certain conferences in the laps of others..... right? That's it, that's all I have. So, in this instance.... am I right?


There is no 'best' conference as the landscape changes from year to year. Some years the SoCon may be the strongest.. other years it could be the Gateway or the CAA.. but there's no doubt that the CAA is consistantly.. one of the strongest FCS leagues.

[Grabholdofyosef]

Speaking of roadwarriors, Eastern Washington could become the ultimate road warrior this year by becoming the first team to win out of state for all four games and totalling almost 10,000 travel miles. They would put together a good resume of the teams they beat as well.

1. undeafeated 2 seed
2. 2 time defending champion
3. CAA or Socon champion
4. Somebody good (possibly #1 or #4 seed or CAA AQ)

Below are google driving distance (I realize they would fly but it was easier for me to find driving distance)
Cheney to Lake Charles, LA 2316 miles
Boone, NC 2517 miles
Spartanburg, SC 2533 miles/Richmond, VA 2599
Chattanooga, TN 2313 miles

I am an ASU fan so I hope this doesnt happen, but it would be quite a feat if it did.

I hope this isnt seen as an attempt to highjack the thread. I think it is somewhat related.

[89Hen]

Congrats, the CAA is the best conference in the land, no, the universe. Actually, I do believe the are the best. However, we can all agree that some conferences are better than others..... right? Regionalism has placed certain conferences in the laps of others..... right? That's it, that's all I have. So, in this instance.... am I right?
Look at the results prior to regionalization. STOP whining. xcoffeex

[kardplayer]

What's the CAA's record against each conference in the playoffs?

[kalm]

Speaking of roadwarriors, Eastern Washington could become the ultimate road warrior this year by becoming the first team to win out of state for all four games and totalling almost 10,000 travel miles. They would put together a good resume of the teams they beat as well.

1. undeafeated 2 seed
2. 2 time defending champion
3. CAA or Socon champion
4. Somebody good (possibly #1 or #4 seed or CAA AQ)

Below are google driving distance (I realize they would fly but it was easier for me to find driving distance)
Cheney to Lake Charles, LA 2316 miles
Boone, NC 2517 miles
Spartanburg, SC 2533 miles/Richmond, VA 2599
Chattanooga, TN 2313 miles

I am an ASU fan so I hope this doesnt happen, but it would be quite a feat if it did.

I hope this isnt seen as an attempt to highjack the thread. I think it is somewhat related.

Playing in the Big Sky Conference, we're used to all the travel.

[DFW HOYA]

What's the CAA's record against each conference in the playoffs?

I don't have that detail, but Patriot League schools have faced CAA schools all but one first round game since 2001.

2001: Lehigh d. Hofstra
2002: Fordham d. Northeastern
2003: Colgate d. Massachusetts
2004: Delaware d. Lafayette
2004: James Madison d. Lehigh
2005: Appalachian State d. Lafayette
2006: Massachusetts d. Lafayette
2007: Massachusetts d. Fordham

[FCS Preview]

I don't have that detail, but Patriot League schools have faced CAA schools all but one first round game since 2001.

2001: Lehigh d. Hofstra
2002: Fordham d. Northeastern
2003: Colgate d. Massachusetts
2004: Delaware d. Lafayette
2004: James Madison d. Lehigh
2005: Appalachian State d. Lafayette
2006: Massachusetts d. Lafayette
2007: Massachusetts d. Lafayette

I think Massachusetts defeated Fordham yesterday. :)

[Saint3333]

Considering the 'home' team probably wins at a 65% or higher rate come playoff time.. it's totally disingenuous to discount the home field advantage.

Ok, the CAA gets the AQs from the Patriot, MEAC, and OVC at HOME. xnodx

[ChickenMan]

Ok, the CAA gets the AQs from the Patriot, MEAC, and OVC at HOME. xnodx

Really..... here's a list of some of the 1st round opponents that the SoCon has played in just the last 10 years and every game was at HOME..



'97 - Florida A&M

'98 - Tennessee St

'98 - Colgate

'99 - Florida A&M

'01 - Florida A&M

'02 - Bethune-Cookman

'03 - North Carolina A&T

'04 - Jacksonville St

'05 - Lafayette

'06 - Coastal Carolina


In 10 years..

5 games with the MEAC

2 with the OV

2 more with the Patriot

another with CCU

ALL opponents that you seem to be labeling as CUP CAKES.. but maybe not.. apparently ONLY the CAA gets a patsie in the 1st round... ;)

[UncleSam]

Really..... here's a list of some of the 1st round opponents that the SoCon has played in just the last 10 years and every game was at HOME..



'97 - Florida A&M

'98 - Tennessee St

'98 - Colgate

'99 - Florida A&M

'01 - Florida A&M

'02 - Bethune-Cookman

'03 - North Carolina A&T

'04 - Jacksonville St

'05 - Lafayette

'06 - Coastal Carolina


In 10 years..

5 games with the MEAC

2 with the OV

2 more with the Patriot

another with CCU

ALL opponents that you seem to be labeling as CUP CAKES.. but maybe not.. apparently ONLY the CAA gets a patsie in the 1st round... ;)


What a bunch of hypocrites, all the moaning that the CAA gets all the advantages with regionalization and the FACTS PROVE otherwise, but I won't hold my breath waiting for the SoCon or any of the other CAA bashers to comment of this one. xlolx

[blueballs]

The numbers for the SoCon aren't accurate as GSU's 32-10 mark includes its games as an independent.

You can blame all this on regionalization... if you seed the teams 1-16 then this problem goes away.

[ChickenMan]

Here's some of the Gateways 1st round opponents in the past 10 years..


'06 - Tenn-Martin

'06 - EIU

'05 - EIU

'02 - Murray St

'02 - EIU

'01 - EIU

'00 - Florida A&M

'00 - Lehigh

'99 - Colgate

'97 - Hampton

'97 - EKU

'97 - Jackson St


7 opponents from the OV

2 from the MEAC

2 from the Patriot

1 from the SWAC



apparently they have had their fair share of 'patsies' as well... ;)

[Eagle22]

The numbers for the SoCon aren't accurate as GSU's 32-10 mark includes its games as an independent.

You can blame all this on regionalization... if you seed the teams 1-16 then this problem goes away.


Agreed.

There is of course, another obvious reason the number of SoCon home games is historically higher. Teams like GSU, Marshall and AppState have gone on some very nice title runs after entering the playoffs as a top 1 or 2 seed.

To the victors go the spoils .....

[ChickenMan]

Marshall's numbers were not included.. as the numbers were for 'current' league members only.. but as was pointed out some of GSU's numbers.. prior to joining the SoCon.. were incorrectly added to the overall figures.. that will be corrected.

[Saint3333]

Chickenman how about we look at how many times the non-seeded SoCon, CAA, Gateway played teams from the OVC, Patriot, and MEAC since regionalization (2002)? The seeded teams should play the weaker opponents, not UMass playing Fordham and Delaware playing DSU.

[Blue Hen Nation]

I prefer to live in the present. IN THE PRESENT we all know UMass, Delaware, and Richmond received a free pass to the second round.

Ask Montana, there are no free passes in the playoffs.

[ChickenMan]

The CAA continues to be 'Road Warriors'.. having only 2 home games vs 7 road games in the '07 playoffs.. meanwhile the SoCon continues to get homes games at an incredible rate.. 4 at home vs only 1 on the road this year.

[93BlueHen]

I prefer to live in the present. IN THE PRESENT we all know UMass, Delaware, and Richmond received a free pass to the second round.

And I guess Delaware and Richmond just got free passes to the semis too, right?xrolleyesx

[BigApp]

Ask Montana, there are no free passes in the playoffs.

well, Delaware State was pretty close to one...:D

[ChickenMan]

well, Delaware State was pretty close to one...:D


Maybe.. but there were a lot of AGS who picked Del St to beat the Hens.

[BigApp]

Maybe.. but there were a lot of AGS who picked Del St to beat the Hens.

I asked for this list last week, but didn't get it. Who comprised the "lots of people who picked Del St"

[ChickenMan]

I asked for this list last week, but didn't get it. Who comprised the "lots of people who picked Del St"


In the poll.. 13 picked Del St.. which was more than picked UNH who nearly upset UNI.


blackfordpu, Catsfan2, Grabholdofyosef, Houndawg, matboz, McDABest, mistersykes, mvemjsunpx, ncgriz, Sorryass, TboneCat, thmst30, UNI Pike

[ChickenMan]

I asked for this list last week, but didn't get it. Who comprised the "lots of people who picked Del St"

since we are on the 'no response' issue.. I never got a response from the SoCon and Gateway boys who bitched and moaned about the CAA 'always' getting the easy 1st round games..


Really..... here's a list of some of the 1st round opponents that the SoCon has played in just the last 10 years and every game was at HOME..



'97 - Florida A&M

'98 - Tennessee St

'98 - Colgate

'99 - Florida A&M

'01 - Florida A&M

'02 - Bethune-Cookman

'03 - North Carolina A&T

'04 - Jacksonville St

'05 - Lafayette

'06 - Coastal Carolina


In 10 years..

5 games with the MEAC

2 with the OV

2 more with the Patriot

another with CCU

ALL opponents that you seem to be labeling as CUP CAKES.. but maybe not.. apparently ONLY the CAA gets a patsie in the 1st round...


It seems that erroneous claim has been totally debunked... :p

[mtoliver]

The numbers for the SoCon aren't accurate as GSU's 32-10 mark includes its games as an independent.

You can blame all this on regionalization... if you seed the teams 1-16 then this problem goes away.


Agreed... did they quit seeding 1-16 to cut travel costs??? That and attendance(read: more $$$ from gate to NCAA) seem to be the only advantages to regionalization IMO..

[89Hen]

Agreed... did they quit seeding 1-16 to cut travel costs??? That and attendance(read: more $$$ from gate to NCAA) seem to be the only advantages to regionalization IMO..
FWIW, the teams were never really seeded 1-16 in order of ranking. The committee always put teams together that they wanted.

[89Hen]

In the poll.. 13 picked Del St.. which was more than picked UNH who nearly upset UNI.


blackfordpu, Catsfan2, Grabholdofyosef, Houndawg, matboz, McDABest, mistersykes, mvemjsunpx, ncgriz, Sorryass, TboneCat, thmst30, UNI Pike
Darn you CM. Confusing people with actual facts. You should know better. xnonox

[mtoliver]

since we are on the 'no response' issue.. I never got a response from the SoCon and Gateway boys who bitched and moaned about the CAA 'always' getting the easy 1st round games..

It seems that erroneous claim has been totally debunked... :p

Still not a response, just an observation after watching this debate rage on for a while. It's not that the CAA is 'given' the cupcakes. They didn't do anything wrong. They just benefit from a rule that appears to be focused on $$$$ not fairness to ALL teams in the playoff field...

I think that SOCON fans and others, myself included, are pointing out that the CAA has an advantage with its geographical location, right in the middle of the 'non power conferences'. Regionalization=unseeded CAA vs. nonpower AQ.

When the statement above is true and SOCON co-champ gets shipped to MT, fans will be angry.


1st round- CAA Co-champs faced EKU and Fordham
SOCON Co-champs faced Montana and JMU.... WOW

Other teams can benefit from regionalization as well... it just looks like, due to geographical location, that the CAA is MORE LIKELY to get a 'non power conference' team than other power conferences.


Not trying to complain about rules in place... just trying to see both sides.

[mtoliver]

FWIW, the teams were never really seeded 1-16 in order of ranking. The committee always put teams together that they wanted.



xeekx xeekx xeekx SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?! xeekx xeekx xeekx

I can't believe that... You mean to tell me that this national playoff in its 25ish years has NEVER seeded 1-16. I thought I'd seen somewhere that there was a rule change that allowed for regionalization.

In this case, I think we need to seed 1-16. Home team shares part of travel expenses as I have read some suggest before...

[ChickenMan]

1st round- CAA Co-champs faced EKU and Fordham
SOCON Co-champs faced Montana and JMU.... WOW




That was ONE year... how about the previous 10 years where the SoCon faced the following in the 1st round.


'97 - Florida A&M

'98 - Tennessee St

'98 - Colgate

'99 - Florida A&M , UMass, NAU

'00 - Hofstra, McNeese St, @ Troy St

'01 - Florida A&M, W&M, WKU

'02 - Bethune-Cookman, Maine @ Villanova

'03 - North Carolina A&T

'04 - Jacksonville St, UNH

'05 - Lafayette, @ Texas St, Nicholls St

'06 - Coastal Carolina, @ Montana St




19 SoCon home games vs 4 on the road



and here's who the CAA played in the 1st round


'97 - Colgate, Hofstra (prior to being a CAA member)

'98 - Lehigh, @ McNeese St

'99 - @ Troy St, @ Furman

'00 - Portland St, YSU, @ Furman

'01 - @ ASU, @ McNeese St, @ Lehigh

'02 - @ ASU, Fordham, Furman

'03 - SIU, @ Colgate

'04 - @ GSU, @ Lehigh, Lafayette

'05 - Colgate, @ Hampton

'06 - @ YSU, Lafayette, @ Hampton




12 CAA home games vs 14 on the road



Now you tell me.. which league has had the tougher 1st round games over the past 10 years???

[B&G]

I see the argument. I see "the facts". But I also see flaws in going strictly by statistics as they don't tell the whole story. Everybody knows that the SoCon has been a top heavy league. The top 2-3 teams will be ranked in the Top 10 nationally and then there is a big drop off. Top 10 teams are more likely to get a home game. Four of the seasons you listed had the SoCon with one team in the playoffs. You know damn well that the SoCon champ is gonna get a home game in that case. The CAA has more teams and that may factor into them getting multiple teams into the playoffs every single year. If the SoCon had gotten a marginal team in the playoffs in those years that they only had one team, then it stands to reason that those would probably have been road games. So maybe the real hypothesis should be that because of the number of teams in the CAA, they are more likely to get multiple and marginal teams into the postseason... and the price for that is more road games.

I'm not saying this is so but I'm saying these are things that can be inferred when you use logic to go along with stats.

[ChickenMan]

I see the argument. I see "the facts". But I also see flaws in going strictly by statistics as they don't tell the whole story. Everybody knows that the SoCon has been a top heavy league. The top 2-3 teams will be ranked in the Top 10 nationally and then there is a big drop off. Top 10 teams are more likely to get a home game. Four of the seasons you listed had the SoCon with one team in the playoffs. You know damn well that the SoCon champ is gonna get a home game in that case. The CAA has more teams and that may factor into them getting multiple teams into the playoffs every single year. If the SoCon had gotten a marginal team in the playoffs in those years that they only had one team, then it stands to reason that those would probably have been road games. So maybe the real hypothesis should be that because of the number of teams in the CAA, they are more likely to get multiple and marginal teams into the postseason... and the price for that is more road games.

I'm not saying this is so but I'm saying these are things that can be inferred when you use logic to go along with stats.



I agree, but that 'logic' goes both ways.. remember it was the SoCon and Gateway posters who were doing all the complaining about 'supposed' CAA 1st round scheduling advantages. All I was doing is pointing out the 'FACT' that the CAA.. for whatever reason.. has actually had a much tougher go in the 1st round than you guys are willing to admit... ;)

[Saint3333]

In many instances the SoCon team that played the OVC, MEAC, and Patriot members was seeded. Those should be thrown out.