Western Illinois to OVC

[atthewbon]

https://twitter.com/WyattWheeler_NL/status/1657084339576791065?s=20

[DFW HOYA]

https://www.inforum.com/sports/bison-media-zone/mens-sports/western-illinois-to-leave-missouri-valley-and-summit-league-for-ohio-valley-conference

[atthewbon]

It seems like all sports will be in the OVC for the 2023 season but football, which will remain in the MVFC next year.

MVFC and OVC seemed to exchange Murray st for WIU. The move seems to make sense for WIU, I know its had been rumored for awhile.

[ST_Lawson]

It makes a lot of sense financially and competitively for us, but I will be really sad not to play Illinois State and UNI every year. Hopefully we can work out some H&H agreements with a few of our old MVFC comrades.

https://goleathernecks.com/news/2023/5/12/athletics-department-leatherneck-athletics-moving-to-ohio-valley-conference-for-all-sports.aspx

[uni88]

It makes a lot of sense financially and competitively for us, but I will be really sad not to play Illinois State and UNI every year. Hopefully we can work out some H&H agreements with a few of our old MVFC comrades.

https://goleathernecks.com/news/2023/5/12/athletics-department-leatherneck-athletics-moving-to-ohio-valley-conference-for-all-sports.aspx

xnodx

[Baron Sardonicus]

Will the Summit League replace WIU? Will they reconsider the Valpo of the West? xsmiley_wix

This could mean expansion for the Pioneer Football League.

[SteelSD]

The move certainly makes sense for WIU. From a Summit perspective I would love to reunite Northern Colorado with the old NCC brethren if for no other reason than the watch the heads explode from YSU and ISUr faithful!

[UNHWildcat18]

Wonder if anyone takes the place of WIU in the MVFC..

[taper]

Wonder if anyone takes the place of WIU in the MVFC..
Not sure if this is rhetorical or not, but Murray State. Except even worse. At least WIU wanted to be good, the state just didn't give them any resources.

[ST_Lawson]

Not sure if this is rhetorical or not, but Murray State. Except even worse. At least WIU wanted to be good, the state just didn't give them any resources.

Yup. 2002 was the high point for us for receiving money from the state. This year's proposed budget bumps us up 7% over last year, which is nice, but still 13.4% less than we got in 2002. That's in actual dollars though...that doesn't count inflation. Take inflation into account, and we're receiving 48.5% what we did in 2002. I don't know how much of that was going towards athletics, but I know our enrollment is also down 43.2% from 2002 to last fall, which means 43.2% fewer students paying fees that some portion of which goes towards athletics.

Based on when the funding decreases were happening and when our enrollment was dropping, it looks quite likely that the enrollment was dropping as a result of less funding. Less funding means higher tuition, fewer improvements, and less money for maintenance and staff.
Funding started heading downhill in 2002; enrollment started heading downhill in 2006.
Funding dropped off a cliff during the state budget crisis starting in 2015 and going through 2017; enrollment dropped off a cliff from 2016 to around 2019.
Funding was solidified after the crisis, was increased in FY 2022, and is proposed to increase in the FY 2024 budget (fiscal year starts July 1); enrollment was static in Fall 2021 (FY 2022) and increased 2.5% in Fall 2022 (FY 2023).

I know we're not the only ones in the same boat, public university funding nationwide has been decreasing, but for a smaller school that is traditionally a "teacher's college", we don't have a lot of research money or wealthy donors to help supplant the loss of state funds.

Getting back to football, I'd have to assume that the MVFC, starting in 2024, will go back to a 2-team/2-year off rotation like we were doing before Murray State was announced to be joining. It doesn't really change much schedule-wise for most teams, at least not in the near future. We've been about "on par" with Murray State in terms of team strength. So, I think football in the MVFC will be fine...rolling along with a different name on the bottom feeder. Murray State is probably a little easier to get to for most teams...the airport is only about an hour away for them. I'm a little more concerned about the Summit League being down to 5 men's soccer teams though.

I'm hoping that we can work our initial OVC football schedule around some of the existing games that we had on our schedule. We had UT-Martin as an OOC opponent on 9/7/2024...so that'll become a conference game. We also had a MVFC game against UNI scheduled for 10/26/24 and at Illinois State scheduled on 11/16/24. It'd be nice if we could just convert one (or both) of those to OOC games.

[UNHWildcat18]

Not sure if this is rhetorical or not, but Murray State. Except even worse. At least WIU wanted to be good, the state just didn't give them any resources.

no I meant outside of Murray State. Wonder if there is anyone else looking to get in.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Sad to see happen but as public higher education continues to evolve in Illinois, WIU and EIU in the OVC and Illinois State and SIU in the MVFC makes sense from a resource standpoint. Hopefully the Leathernecks can regain their competitive footing in the OVC which then allows them to once again have a presence on the national level. When I started to ramp up my 1-AA/FCS football fandom WIU was one of the marquee programs. Now, they along McNeese State have suffered significantly from similar institutional and state-wide constrictions/priorities....

[Redbird 4th & short]

It makes a lot of sense financially and competitively for us, but I will be really sad not to play Illinois State and UNI every year. Hopefully we can work out some H&H agreements with a few of our old MVFC comrades.

https://goleathernecks.com/news/2023/5/12/athletics-department-leatherneck-athletics-moving-to-ohio-valley-conference-for-all-sports.aspx

Sorry to see this Lawson .. feeling is mutual about the historical rivalry. WIU always impressed me with how they stayed competitive in football up until the last few years, despite budget and enrollment issues. We still do EIU every year, but that used to be a better rivalry than it is today. Wishing the Leathernecks luck with these changes !!!

[ElCid]

Yup. 2002 was the high point for us for receiving money from the state. This year's proposed budget bumps us up 7% over last year, which is nice, but still 13.4% less than we got in 2002. That's in actual dollars though...that doesn't count inflation. Take inflation into account, and we're receiving 48.5% what we did in 2002. I don't know how much of that was going towards athletics, but I know our enrollment is also down 43.2% from 2002 to last fall, which means 43.2% fewer students paying fees that some portion of which goes towards athletics.

Based on when the funding decreases were happening and when our enrollment was dropping, it looks quite likely that the enrollment was dropping as a result of less funding. Less funding means higher tuition, fewer improvements, and less money for maintenance and staff.
Funding started heading downhill in 2002; enrollment started heading downhill in 2006.
Funding dropped off a cliff during the state budget crisis starting in 2015 and going through 2017; enrollment dropped off a cliff from 2016 to around 2019.
Funding was solidified after the crisis, was increased in FY 2022, and is proposed to increase in the FY 2024 budget (fiscal year starts July 1); enrollment was static in Fall 2021 (FY 2022) and increased 2.5% in Fall 2022 (FY 2023).

I know we're not the only ones in the same boat, public university funding nationwide has been decreasing, but for a smaller school that is traditionally a "teacher's college", we don't have a lot of research money or wealthy donors to help supplant the loss of state funds.

Getting back to football, I'd have to assume that the MVFC, starting in 2024, will go back to a 2-team/2-year off rotation like we were doing before Murray State was announced to be joining. It doesn't really change much schedule-wise for most teams, at least not in the near future. We've been about "on par" with Murray State in terms of team strength. So, I think football in the MVFC will be fine...rolling along with a different name on the bottom feeder. Murray State is probably a little easier to get to for most teams...the airport is only about an hour away for them. I'm a little more concerned about the Summit League being down to 5 men's soccer teams though.

I'm hoping that we can work our initial OVC football schedule around some of the existing games that we had on our schedule. We had UT-Martin as an OOC opponent on 9/7/2024...so that'll become a conference game. We also had a MVFC game against UNI scheduled for 10/26/24 and at Illinois State scheduled on 11/16/24. It'd be nice if we could just convert one (or both) of those to OOC games.

Fairly sure this is only the beginning. You will see a much larger number of schools rethink everything athletics. Not only demographics, but choices when it comes to education will result in many schools shrinking and athletics morphing as a result. By choices, I mean not only competition, but decisions by many to not go to college at all in favor of a trade/technical school. The happy days are over. At least for a long time.

If I were to bet, I would say at least ten FCS schools either drop football or drop down a division in the next ten years. Those where full up Div I sports is simply not sustainable. We haven't had a flurry of schools do that in a long time, but we have had periods where this has happened.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Bottom feeder leaves the Valley to be replaced by another. Status quo....

[taper]

Fairly sure this is only the beginning. You will see a much larger number of schools rethink everything athletics. Not only demographics, but choices when it comes to education will result in many schools shrinking and athletics morphing as a result. By choices, I mean not only competition, but decisions by many to not go to college at all in favor of a trade/technical school. The happy days are over. At least for a long time.

If I were to bet, I would say at least ten FCS schools either drop football or drop down a division in the next ten years. Those where full up Div I sports is simply not sustainable. We haven't had a flurry of schools do that in a long time, but we have had periods where this has happened.
Just wait until a few court cases get decided. Johnson v NCAA will probably succeed and make all student athletes paid employees. House v NCAA wants to give student athletes a share of revenue. Depending on scope this either forces ~100 D1 schools to drop to D2-3, or in the worst case completely destroys college athletics.

[Ridge1982]

OVC is now home to three former St. Louis NFL training camp facilities, although I wonder if Lindenwood will be selected by the MVFC since they’re headquartered in the same metro.

[aceinthehole]

I know we're not the only ones in the same boat, public university funding nationwide has been decreasing, but for a smaller school that is traditionally a "teacher's college", we don't have a lot of research money or wealthy donors to help supplant the loss of state funds.



I hear you! CCSU struggles with many of the same dynamics and challenges from our State and local economy.

Good luck in the OVC - hope it works out for you guys.

Remembering when Central Connecticut and Western Illinois were conferences foes for 3 seasons :)

[nickp]

The farthest they would have to travel is Tennessee and that's closer to Illinois than the Dakotas

[MR. CHICKEN]

Bottom feeder leaves the Valley to be replaced by another. Status quo....

....IFIN' SOMEBODY IS WINNIN'.....SOMEBODY IS LOSIN'......xsighx.....BRAWK!

[ST_Lawson]

Remembering when Central Connecticut and Western Illinois were conferences foes for 3 seasons :)

Hah...yeah, I remember that. Your last year in the Mid-Con was my first year at Western. I was in the pep band, so I remember us playing you guys in basketball.
It's crazy to think how much the conference shifted to the west from then.
My freshman year the conference was WIU, Youngstown State, Valparaiso, Central Connecticut, Troy State, Buffalo, Northeastern Illinois (who doesn't even have sports anymore), Chicago State, and the only team west of us, Kansas City (UMKC). So, in the last 25ish years, we've gone from the second-furthest west team to BY FAR the furthest east team. Since then, NEIU dropped athletics and everyone else left the conference (although Kansas City came back), plus these guys all joined up and left: Southern Utah, IUPUI, Oakland, Centenary (who dropped to DIII), Purdue-Fort Wayne, and Oral Roberts joined, left, then rejoined (and that's not even touching all the various associate members the conference had).



The farthest they would have to travel is Tennessee and that's closer to Illinois than the Dakotas

Not so big of a deal with football, but it's the schlepping your soccer teams out to Denver or your women's tennis team (we dropped men's tennis a few years ago) up to Grand Forks, ND that really takes a toll on things. We're going from our nearest conference team being 4 1/2 hour drive away to having 4 conference mates within that range. It's a pretty big difference.

[mvfcfan]

I bet Robert Morris ends up sliding in at some point. We're going to need a (football) replacement for Missouri State and perhaps others at some point. RMU is currently in the Big South (OVC alliance) for football and the Horizon League (same league as YSU) for everything else.

[BisonFan02]

I bet Robert Morris ends up sliding in at some point. We're going to need a (football) replacement for Missouri State and perhaps others at some point. RMU is currently in the Big South (OVC alliance) for football and the Horizon League (same league as YSU) for everything else.

......and with that, it is 100% time for Summit League Football

[ST_Lawson]

I bet Robert Morris ends up sliding in at some point. We're going to need a (football) replacement for Missouri State and perhaps others at some point. RMU is currently in the Big South (OVC alliance) for football and the Horizon League (same league as YSU) for everything else.

I highly doubt the Dakota schools are going to be on board with bringing in Robert Morris to the MVFC. I honestly think it'd be more likely for YSU and RMU to move to the OVC than it is for RMU to go to the MVFC. Neither are likely, but RMU to the MVFC seems less so to me. The MVFC is all public universities and (going forward after 2023) all what I'd consider "medium" to "medium-large" schools. RMU is private and a few thousand students smaller than even WIU.


......and with that, it is 100% time for Summit League Football

I've never really been big on the idea of Summit League football. I understand the sentiment, but at this point, you've got 4 teams for football. Bring in maybe Northern Colorado for 5. I guess St. Thomas might add scholarship football at some point, but I really see them moving out of the Summit in the next few years and trying to work their way up to something like the Big East (travel partner with Creighton?), possibly by way of the MVC. They've always felt more like a Butler or Dayton...private school in decently-sized metro area where they have non-scholarship football in the Pioneer, and go pretty much all-in on basketball.
Are you thinking the Summit would try to convince some of the decent DII Missouri schools to try to move up to DI? Other than that, I'm not sure who else there is out there. Augustana (SD) already took their shot and got knocked down (not sure how cool the SD schools would be with another DI right in the middle of them anyway).

Or would the Dakotas try to convince the Montana schools plus a few more of the more northern Big Sky schools to actually make the name "Summit" make more sense...with all the schools being at the "top" of the US and many along or fairly near the Rocky Mountains? Something like NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, Montana, Montana State, Northern Colorado, Idaho, Idaho State, Weber State, and Eastern Washington?

[Go...gate]

Fairly sure this is only the beginning. You will see a much larger number of schools rethink everything athletics. Not only demographics, but choices when it comes to education will result in many schools shrinking and athletics morphing as a result. By choices, I mean not only competition, but decisions by many to not go to college at all in favor of a trade/technical school. The happy days are over. At least for a long time.

If I were to bet, I would say at least ten FCS schools either drop football or drop down a division in the next ten years. Those where full up Div I sports is simply not sustainable. We haven't had a flurry of schools do that in a long time, but we have had periods where this has happened.

I believe you are correct.

[BisonFan02]

I highly doubt the Dakota schools are going to be on board with bringing in Robert Morris to the MVFC. I honestly think it'd be more likely for YSU and RMU to move to the OVC than it is for RMU to go to the MVFC. Neither are likely, but RMU to the MVFC seems less so to me. The MVFC is all public universities and (going forward after 2023) all what I'd consider "medium" to "medium-large" schools. RMU is private and a few thousand students smaller than even WIU.



I've never really been big on the idea of Summit League football. I understand the sentiment, but at this point, you've got 4 teams for football. Bring in maybe Northern Colorado for 5. I guess St. Thomas might add scholarship football at some point, but I really see them moving out of the Summit in the next few years and trying to work their way up to something like the Big East (travel partner with Creighton?), possibly by way of the MVC. They've always felt more like a Butler or Dayton...private school in decently-sized metro area where they have non-scholarship football in the Pioneer, and go pretty much all-in on basketball.
Are you thinking the Summit would try to convince some of the decent DII Missouri schools to try to move up to DI? Other than that, I'm not sure who else there is out there. Augustana (SD) already took their shot and got knocked down (not sure how cool the SD schools would be with another DI right in the middle of them anyway).

Or would the Dakotas try to convince the Montana schools plus a few more of the more northern Big Sky schools to actually make the name "Summit" make more sense...with all the schools being at the "top" of the US and many along or fairly near the Rocky Mountains? Something like NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, Montana, Montana State, Northern Colorado, Idaho, Idaho State, Weber State, and Eastern Washington?

Gotta do whatever needs to be done. The stability of the Summit League is more important for the entirety of the D1 athletic programs of the Dakota schools than the health of a football only MVFC....need to figure out an all sports league...because (besides maybe SDSU), a MVC invite is never coming for the group.

[SteelSD]

Or would the Dakotas try to convince the Montana schools plus a few more of the more northern Big Sky schools to actually make the name "Summit" make more sense...with all the schools being at the "top" of the US and many along or fairly near the Rocky Mountains? Something like NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, Montana, Montana State, Northern Colorado, Idaho, Idaho State, Weber State, and Eastern Washington?
This is the idea that makes the most sense to me. Geographical isolation seems to me to be pushing the Montana and Dakota schools together. I would be fine with a Summit League conference that consists of the Dakota 4, the Montana's, the Idaho's, UNC, and Weber State. That seems like a pretty good all sports conference too. That seems like a stable group of schools that have similar visions.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

......and with that, it is 100% time for Summit League Football


No way for now. 4 teams?

[clenz]

This is the idea that makes the most sense to me. Geographical isolation seems to me to be pushing the Montana and Dakota schools together. I would be fine with a Summit League conference that consists of the Dakota 4, the Montana's, the Idaho's, UNC, and Weber State. That seems like a pretty good all sports conference too. That seems like a stable group of schools that have similar visions.Didn't UND just leave the Big Sky - with that kind of travel - beacuse it was bankrupting their athletic department?

[BisonFan02]

Didn't UND just leave the Big Sky - with that kind of travel - beacuse it was bankrupting their athletic department?

Which bus trip ****ty football program with good men's bball do you guys wanna add next?

[taper]

Didn't UND just leave the Big Sky - with that kind of travel - beacuse it was bankrupting their athletic department?
UND was all on its lonesome. This idea would have 2 west/east pods. Have you looked at how much the Montanas and Idahos travel in the Big Sky as it is?

[uni88]

This is the idea that makes the most sense to me. Geographical isolation seems to me to be pushing the Montana and Dakota schools together. I would be fine with a Summit League conference that consists of the Dakota 4, the Montana's, the Idaho's, UNC, and Weber State. That seems like a pretty good all sports conference too. That seems like a stable group of schools that have similar visions.

My guess is the Montana's, Idaho's and Weber St would want EWU rather than UNC.

[SDFS]

Didn't UND just leave the Big Sky - with that kind of travel - beacuse it was bankrupting their athletic department?

I am sure that Travel costs were high (fuel was around $5.00 or so for a period of time). But, I think the primary issue was getting back on the schedules of the regional Dakota rivals.

[Redbird 4th & short]

I highly doubt the Dakota schools are going to be on board with bringing in Robert Morris to the MVFC. I honestly think it'd be more likely for YSU and RMU to move to the OVC than it is for RMU to go to the MVFC. Neither are likely, but RMU to the MVFC seems less so to me. The MVFC is all public universities and (going forward after 2023) all what I'd consider "medium" to "medium-large" schools. RMU is private and a few thousand students smaller than even WIU.



I've never really been big on the idea of Summit League football. I understand the sentiment, but at this point, you've got 4 teams for football. Bring in maybe Northern Colorado for 5. I guess St. Thomas might add scholarship football at some point, but I really see them moving out of the Summit in the next few years and trying to work their way up to something like the Big East (travel partner with Creighton?), possibly by way of the MVC. They've always felt more like a Butler or Dayton...private school in decently-sized metro area where they have non-scholarship football in the Pioneer, and go pretty much all-in on basketball.
Are you thinking the Summit would try to convince some of the decent DII Missouri schools to try to move up to DI? Other than that, I'm not sure who else there is out there. Augustana (SD) already took their shot and got knocked down (not sure how cool the SD schools would be with another DI right in the middle of them anyway).

Or would the Dakotas try to convince the Montana schools plus a few more of the more northern Big Sky schools to actually make the name "Summit" make more sense...with all the schools being at the "top" of the US and many along or fairly near the Rocky Mountains? Something like NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, Montana, Montana State, Northern Colorado, Idaho, Idaho State, Weber State, and Eastern Washington?

I hate this idea, even though it makes conplete sense geographically. But selfishly want what's best for MVFC. I would honestly rather be a 7-4 level program in current MVFC than a 9-2 program in something else.

[ST_Lawson]

I hate this idea, even though it makes conplete sense geographically. But selfishly want what's best for MVFC. I would honestly rather be a 7-4 level program in current MVFC than a 9-2 program in something else.

Completely understandable. I'm still torn on the football aspect of moving to the OVC myself (I do really like the MVFC), originally hoping for WIU to go OVC for the "olympic sports" while keeping football in the MVFC, but I know that the OVC was probably in the "all or nothing" camp. There's a lot of history with a lot of the old Gateway conference schools that I didn't want to disrupt.

Now that we're officially going to the OVC and I'm being a bit selfish, what I'd really LOVE to see (highly unlikely to happen, I know) is if that split happens with the Dakotas and they go start up some kind of Summit League football, all the MVC teams in the MVFC (both ISUs, SIU, MO State, Murray State, and UNI) become football-only associate members of the OVC. OVC drops the Big South football partnership and looks like this: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/edit?mid=1ErjqJyQqdzAQeO78fUjRSTqkjuZmQPI&usp=sharing

13 teams (12 if Missouri State ends up going FBS) playing OVC football in a nice tight footprint. The vast majority of games are driveable, lots of rivalry games can be set up to be permanent/protected rivalries...like SIU and SEMO, ILSU and EIU, hopefully ILSU and WIU also. I think Missouri State and SEMO used to have a rivalry as well (back when it would have been Southwest MO State vs Southeast MO State).

MVC teams keep all their other sports in the MVC of course, so you guys are doing your thing there. Plus, if maybe at some point down the road the MVC wants to add someone like Lindenwood (private, but a football school, large metro area, plenty of money, right in the middle of the conference footprint, and they've been looking at aquiring the nearby Family Arena...10.4k seat arena that used to host the MVC women's conference tournament), then there's already a relationship there.

[Laker]

This is a sidetrack to WIU, but has anyone heard of the possibility of UNO starting football again? They sure were tough in the NCC- is having men's hockey too much of a cost to have both?

[ST_Lawson]

This is a sidetrack to WIU, but has anyone heard of the possibility of UNO starting football again? They sure were tough in the NCC- is having men's hockey too much of a cost to have both?

I don't really know for sure, but from what I heard, them dropping football was a condition for them to go DI. UNL (Nebraska-Lincoln) wanted to be the only DI football team in the state (at least within their sphere of control...can't do much if Creighton wanted to add football), and UNO wanted to go DI. They also were forced to drop wrestling, a sport they had won DII national championships in in '91, '04, '05, '06, '09, '10, and '11.

I doubt that UNL has changed their minds on that, so I don't think UNO starting football is at all likely.

[nodak651]

I don't really know for sure, but from what I heard, them dropping football was a condition for them to go DI. UNL (Nebraska-Lincoln) wanted to be the only DI football team in the state (at least within their sphere of control...can't do much if Creighton wanted to add football), and UNO wanted to go DI. They also were forced to drop wrestling, a sport they had won DII national championships in in '91, '04, '05, '06, '09, '10, and '11.

I doubt that UNL has changed their minds on that, so I don't think UNO starting football is at all likely.

Trev Alberts is the Nebraska AD, and a former UNO AD, so he does have an interest in seeing UNO do well. My hope is UNO adds football at the same time as Nebraska adds hockey. Both unlikely I know.

[Ridge1982]

Completely understandable. I'm still torn on the football aspect of moving to the OVC myself (I do really like the MVFC), originally hoping for WIU to go OVC for the "olympic sports" while keeping football in the MVFC, but I know that the OVC was probably in the "all or nothing" camp. There's a lot of history with a lot of the old Gateway conference schools that I didn't want to disrupt.

Now that we're officially going to the OVC and I'm being a bit selfish, what I'd really LOVE to see (highly unlikely to happen, I know) is if that split happens with the Dakotas and they go start up some kind of Summit League football, all the MVC teams in the MVFC (both ISUs, SIU, MO State, Murray State, and UNI) become football-only associate members of the OVC. OVC drops the Big South football partnership and looks like this: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/edit?mid=1ErjqJyQqdzAQeO78fUjRSTqkjuZmQPI&usp=sharing

13 teams (12 if Missouri State ends up going FBS) playing OVC football in a nice tight footprint. The vast majority of games are driveable, lots of rivalry games can be set up to be permanent/protected rivalries...like SIU and SEMO, ILSU and EIU, hopefully ILSU and WIU also. I think Missouri State and SEMO used to have a rivalry as well (back when it would have been Southwest MO State vs Southeast MO State).

MVC teams keep all their other sports in the MVC of course, so you guys are doing your thing there. Plus, if maybe at some point down the road the MVC wants to add someone like Lindenwood (private, but a football school, large metro area, plenty of money, right in the middle of the conference footprint, and they've been looking at aquiring the nearby Family Arena...10.4k seat arena that used to host the MVC women's conference tournament), then there's already a relationship there.

The Family Arena should be used for both basketball and hockey should they schedule a H&H against blue bloods.

[Ridge1982]

And the last hockey tournament that was held there was the NCAA Women’s Tournament in 2017.

[mmiller_34]

I would love nothing more than to see SDSU / NDSU / Montana State / Montana / Idaho / UNC / Idaho State / EWU come together and be the core of a conference. The problem is that huge gap between Bozeman, Greeley, Brookings, and Fargo.

MSU-Billings & Black Hills State are two universities that could connect that gap, but MSU-Billings doesn’t have football and Black Hills State would never have support, or the financial ability to even think of jumping from division-II.

The West is just so vast.

A pipedream would be if the Big 10, SEC, ACC, and whatever is left of the Big 12, AAC, and PAC 12 go their own way. That would leave whatever is left of the G5 and the top of FCS to merge into what would become that 2nd tier of college football. Seeing this would be cool:

Plains:

NDSU
SDSU
UND
USD
UNI
Missouri State

Mountain:

Montana
Montana State
Wyoming
Colorado State
Idaho
Idaho State

Play all teams in your own division, 4 teams from other division (2 home, 2 away), add 2 out of conference games. I have a feeling Wyoming and Colorado State would rather drop athletics than resort to this though. xlolx

*** Of course, UNI and Missouri State would have to be football only members since they would never leave the high and mighty post Creighton, Wichita State, Loyola MVC to join like minded public schools for all sports.

[BisonFan02]

Trev Alberts is the Nebraska AD, and a former UNO AD, so he does have an interest in seeing UNO do well. My hope is UNO adds football at the same time as Nebraska adds hockey. Both unlikely I know.

Trev has zero interest in UNO adding football....and the state of NE has zero interest in another D1 football program a la Wisconsin...MN....et al.

[UNHWildcat18]

Plains
SDSU
UND
USD
NDSU
UNI
ISUr

Mountains
MU
MSU
EWU
Idaho
Idaho St.
Weber State

Now that would be a permanent top FCS conference

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Murray State will consistently be at the bottom of the Valley forever.

[ST_Lawson]

I'm sure it won't apply to us for at least a few years, but I'm trying to determine if our chances of making the playoffs are better in the OVC or the MVFC...

Wins: Of course, our chances of getting regular season wins are higher in the OVC. That'll happen when the best teams you play in the conference go from NDSU and SDSU to SEMO and UT Martin.
Autobid: We also have a better chance of getting the conference auto bid than in the MVFC. I don't really see any MVFC team beating out NDSU or SDSU for the conference championship for quite a while.
At-Large Bids: On the other hand, if you play in the MVFC and finish 7-4 in a season with five wins in the conference (for example, North Dakota last year), you can pick up an at-large bid. Meanwhile, UT Martin, who also had a 7-4 record with five conference wins, did not. I'm not saying this is wrong...I absolutely understand the reasoning and fully support it...I'm just trying to figure out what the "target" is for the OVC now (I know 7-4 was the generally accepted "target" for the MVFC outside of a couple of unusual situations where a 6-5 team made it in).

2022 - SEMO gets the auto-bid at 5-0 in the conference with a 9-2 overall record. UT Martin doesn't get in with 5-0 in the conference and 7-4 overall, being co-champions with SEMO but losing the auto-bid due to a coin flip.
2021 - UT Martin gets the auto-bid at 5-1 in the conference with a 9-2 overall record. Next best team in the conference only has a 6-5 overall record.
2020 - doesn't count
2019 - Austin Peay gets the auto-bid with a 7-1 conference record and 9-3 overall. SEMO gets an at-large with an identical record (APSU won the head-to-head matchup) and a #17 ranking. The OVC at the time was a more challenging conference, with EKU, Austin Peay, and Jacksonville State all in it.

It's hard to say where the line falls, but my guess at this point is:
7-4 - you're staying home
8-3 - maybe depending on your resume
9-2 or better - probably in

Does that sound about right to anyone else? Or is 8-3 more into the "likely staying home" category for the OVC?

Looking at other at-large teams from "mid to lower tier" conferences last year:
Southland - Incarnate Word is a conference co-champ (SELA gets the auto bid with the same record + H2H win) and receives an at-large with a 5-1 record in the conference, 10-1 overall record, and a Top 10 ranking.
SWAC - Florida A&M get left out at 7-1 in the conference and 9-2 overall, although the previous year they got in with the same record.
Patriot League - Fordham gets an at-large with a 9-2 overall record and 5-1 in the conference.

Also, in 2021, Southeastern Louisiana gets an at-large out of the Southland with an 8-3 overall record (even losing their last 2 out of 3 games) and 6-2 in the conference.

Thoughts?

[Professor Chaos]

I'm sure it won't apply to us for at least a few years, but I'm trying to determine if our chances of making the playoffs are better in the OVC or the MVFC...

Wins: Of course, our chances of getting regular season wins are higher in the OVC. That'll happen when the best teams you play in the conference go from NDSU and SDSU to SEMO and UT Martin.
Autobid: We also have a better chance of getting the conference auto bid than in the MVFC. I don't really see any MVFC team beating out NDSU or SDSU for the conference championship for quite a while.
At-Large Bids: On the other hand, if you play in the MVFC and finish 7-4 in a season with five wins in the conference (for example, North Dakota last year), you can pick up an at-large bid. Meanwhile, UT Martin, who also had a 7-4 record with five conference wins, did not. I'm not saying this is wrong...I absolutely understand the reasoning and fully support it...I'm just trying to figure out what the "target" is for the OVC now (I know 7-4 was the generally accepted "target" for the MVFC outside of a couple of unusual situations where a 6-5 team made it in).

2022 - SEMO gets the auto-bid at 5-0 in the conference with a 9-2 overall record. UT Martin doesn't get in with 5-0 in the conference and 7-4 overall, being co-champions with SEMO but losing the auto-bid due to a coin flip.
2021 - UT Martin gets the auto-bid at 5-1 in the conference with a 9-2 overall record. Next best team in the conference only has a 6-5 overall record.
2020 - doesn't count
2019 - Austin Peay gets the auto-bid with a 7-1 conference record and 9-3 overall. SEMO gets an at-large with an identical record (APSU won the head-to-head matchup) and a #17 ranking. The OVC at the time was a more challenging conference, with EKU, Austin Peay, and Jacksonville State all in it.

It's hard to say where the line falls, but my guess at this point is:
7-4 - you're staying home
8-3 - maybe depending on your resume
9-2 or better - probably in

Does that sound about right to anyone else? Or is 8-3 more into the "likely staying home" category for the OVC?

Looking at other at-large teams from "mid to lower tier" conferences last year:
Southland - Incarnate Word is a conference co-champ (SELA gets the auto bid with the same record + H2H win) and receives an at-large with a 5-1 record in the conference, 10-1 overall record, and a Top 10 ranking.
SWAC - Florida A&M get left out at 7-1 in the conference and 9-2 overall, although the previous year they got in with the same record.
Patriot League - Fordham gets an at-large with a 9-2 overall record and 5-1 in the conference.

Also, in 2021, Southeastern Louisiana gets an at-large out of the Southland with an 8-3 overall record (even losing their last 2 out of 3 games) and 6-2 in the conference.

Thoughts?
Better chance at making the playoffs -> OVC
Better chance at success in the playoffs -> MVFC

xtwocentsx

[clenz]

Murray State will consistently be at the bottom of the Valley forever.
Cool. I'm not sure why that upsets NDSU fans as much as it does.

WIU and Indiana State have been bottom of the Valley forever as well. Someone has to be, why does it matter who as long as it's not you? The way it sits right now the Valley traded WIU for Murray, nothing changes in the big picture except the trip now goes to a town that starts with M and ends with urray rather than acomb.

I don't understand the "We shouldn't add someone like Murray we need to add another top 15 type program". Why? We already play 6-7 ranked games in the conference every year. Why add another one in? If anything this should make NDSU fans happy because it drops a bad team out of the conference. WIU has 4 total wins in 4 years. They've won more than 5 conference games just 3 times since they Gateway/Valley formed in 1985 and none of them since 2002. Hell, they've won 5 conference games just 7 times in that time span. That means in 37 years - and lett's call it 38 becayse it's not happening this year - WIU has won more than 4 conference games 10 total times and 5 of them came between 97-03. That just 26% of the seasons they played in the Gateway/Valley they were better than a 4 conference win team. Murray literally can't be much worse.

No one should be surprised by this move by the OVC and/or WIU. The OVC has been VERY open about a standing invitation to WIU and WIU has openly said "Not right now, but things could change pending funding and the Summit moving forward". They never told them no, it was "Not now, but eventually". Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knew Murray and WIU being traded was going to be the ultimate result, even if it wasn't the same year. The OVC has strongly come out and said their alliance with the Big South is temporary and they want to be their own auto-bid conference again. To do that they needed to find schools to come in and WIU was a no-brainer.

[Sycamore62]

I don't understand the "We shouldn't add someone like Murray we need to add another top 15 type program". Why? We already play 6-7 ranked games in the conference every year. Why add another one in? If anything this should make NDSU fans happy because it drops a bad team out of the conference. WIU has 4 total wins in 4 years. They've won more than 5 conference games just 3 times since they Gateway/Valley formed in 1985 and none of them since 2002. Hell, they've won 5 conference games just 7 times in that time span. That means in 37 years - and lett's call it 38 becayse it's not happening this year - WIU has won more than 4 conference games 10 total times and 5 of them came between 97-03. That just 26% of the seasons they played in the Gateway/Valley they were better than a 4 conference win team. Murray literally can't be much worse.


in their defense there were only 5-7 games up until 2008. but i agree with your post.

[uni88]

Cool. I'm not sure why that upsets NDSU fans as much as it does.

WIU and Indiana State have been bottom of the Valley forever as well. Someone has to be, why does it matter who as long as it's not you? The way it sits right now the Valley traded WIU for Murray, nothing changes in the big picture except the trip now goes to a town that starts with M and ends with urray rather than acomb.

I don't understand the "We shouldn't add someone like Murray we need to add another top 15 type program". Why? We already play 6-7 ranked games in the conference every year. Why add another one in? If anything this should make NDSU fans happy because it drops a bad team out of the conference. WIU has 4 total wins in 4 years. They've won more than 5 conference games just 3 times since they Gateway/Valley formed in 1985 and none of them since 2002. Hell, they've won 5 conference games just 7 times in that time span. That means in 37 years - and lett's call it 38 becayse it's not happening this year - WIU has won more than 4 conference games 10 total times and 5 of them came between 97-03. That just 26% of the seasons they played in the Gateway/Valley they were better than a 4 conference win team. Murray literally can't be much worse.

No one should be surprised by this move by the OVC and/or WIU. The OVC has been VERY open about a standing invitation to WIU and WIU has openly said "Not right now, but things could change pending funding and the Summit moving forward". They never told them no, it was "Not now, but eventually". Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knew Murray and WIU being traded was going to be the ultimate result, even if it wasn't the same year. The OVC has strongly come out and said their alliance with the Big South is temporary and they want to be their own auto-bid conference again. To do that they needed to find schools to come in and WIU was a no-brainer.

I would guess that they're butt hurt over not getting an invitation to the MVC and they lash out when and how they can. They joined the MVFC in 2008. Since then the MVC has added Loyola, Valparaiso, Belmont, UIC & Murray State. Murray State is the only one with football and they haven't been good so they're an easy target.

[SteelSD]

Cool. I'm not sure why that upsets NDSU fans as much as it does.

WIU and Indiana State have been bottom of the Valley forever as well. Someone has to be, why does it matter who as long as it's not you? The way it sits right now the Valley traded WIU for Murray, nothing changes in the big picture except the trip now goes to a town that starts with M and ends with urray rather than acomb.

I don't understand the "We shouldn't add someone like Murray we need to add another top 15 type program". Why? We already play 6-7 ranked games in the conference every year. Why add another one in? If anything this should make NDSU fans happy because it drops a bad team out of the conference. WIU has 4 total wins in 4 years. They've won more than 5 conference games just 3 times since they Gateway/Valley formed in 1985 and none of them since 2002. Hell, they've won 5 conference games just 7 times in that time span. That means in 37 years - and lett's call it 38 becayse it's not happening this year - WIU has won more than 4 conference games 10 total times and 5 of them came between 97-03. That just 26% of the seasons they played in the Gateway/Valley they were better than a 4 conference win team. Murray literally can't be much worse.

No one should be surprised by this move by the OVC and/or WIU. The OVC has been VERY open about a standing invitation to WIU and WIU has openly said "Not right now, but things could change pending funding and the Summit moving forward". They never told them no, it was "Not now, but eventually". Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knew Murray and WIU being traded was going to be the ultimate result, even if it wasn't the same year. The OVC has strongly come out and said their alliance with the Big South is temporary and they want to be their own auto-bid conference again. To do that they needed to find schools to come in and WIU was a no-brainer.
It's interesting how fine you are with the addition of a bad team as long as it's a Valley team. I certainly remember a different tone from the MV schools fans over the addition of UND. Memories sure seem to be short.

[clenz]

It's interesting how fine you are with the addition of a bad team as long as it's a Valley team. I certainly remember a different tone from the MV schools fans over the addition of UND. Memories sure seem to be short.
As much as I didn't want UND - just like everyone else including the other 3 Dakota schools - we all were adults and realized it was ultimately good for the Summit and provided them with stability and thus made complete sense to join the Valley. I have it on very good authority from people that are pretty ****ing connected at other Dakota schools the Dakota 3 pushed back on UND as much as anyone else, but push came to shove and it was the best move for the Summit which meant it was the right move for the Valley - and why every single school in the MVFC voted yes to adding them. Unlike NDSU voting no on Murray State out of spite. We were all fine with adding a bottom of the conference team with USD in 2012 because we also understood it was good for stability. USD went 1-10 (0-8) 4-8 (3-5) 0-12 (0-8) 5-6(3-5) 4-7 (3/5) in their first 5 years in the Valley. They followed that up with 8-5 (4-4() and then went back to 4-7 (3-5) 5-7 (4-4), 1-3, one more pop season of 7-5 (5-3) and then 3-8 (2-6) so far in their time in the Valley. Let's not pretend we added some sort of juggernaut with USD - or even UND at this point.

Just as Murray coming in, along with Belmont, to the MVC made the MVC more stable in the long term and thus was good for the MVFC by proxy.

The statements from Patty V also made it clear that the presidents/ADs wanted a 12 team MVFC. Murray makes 12. Well, made 12 until WIU leaves next year.

Them being bad and a Valley team means nothing to me. If the Summit wants to add UNCo and that means them being in the MVFC it will be passed. You'll get some pushback on scheduling and making sure you aren't going across half the country in back-to-back weeks or anything like that, just as we saw when UND joined, but that's about it. I couldn't give a **** how bad of a program is added to the bottom of our league as long as it means adding stability and isn't just an add for add sake.

[SteelSD]

As much as I didn't want UND - just like everyone else including the other 3 Dakota schools - we all were adults and realized it was ultimately good for the Summit and provided them with stability and thus made complete sense to join the Valley. I have it on very good authority from people that are pretty ****ing connected at other Dakota schools the Dakota 3 pushed back on UND as much as anyone else, but push came to shove and it was the best move for the Summit which meant it was the right move for the Valley - and why every single school in the MVFC voted yes to adding them. Unlike NDSU voting no on Murray State out of spite. We were all fine with adding a bottom of the conference team with USD in 2012 because we also understood it was good for stability. USD went 1-10 (0-8) 4-8 (3-5) 0-12 (0-8) 5-6(3-5) 4-7 (3/5) in their first 5 years in the Valley. They followed that up with 8-5 (4-4() and then went back to 4-7 (3-5) 5-7 (4-4), 1-3, one more pop season of 7-5 (5-3) and then 3-8 (2-6) so far in their time in the Valley. Let's not pretend we added some sort of juggernaut with USD - or even UND at this point.

Just as Murray coming in, along with Belmont, to the MVC made the MVC more stable in the long term and thus was good for the MVFC by proxy.

The statements from Patty V also made it clear that the presidents/ADs wanted a 12 team MVFC. Murray makes 12. Well, made 12 until WIU leaves next year.

Them being bad and a Valley team means nothing to me. If the Summit wants to add UNCo and that means them being in the MVFC it will be passed. You'll get some pushback on scheduling and making sure you aren't going across half the country in back-to-back weeks or anything like that, just as we saw when UND joined, but that's about it. I couldn't give a **** how bad of a program is added to the bottom of our league as long as it means adding stability and isn't just an add for add sake.
When you say "we were all adults" I assume you are referencing the university presidents and not yourself? Because all I read from you was "but geography." So how is adding around 300 miles to the Dakota's help us again exactly? Why is it ok to add distance for us and not for yourselves? Where's the "we were against UND because they are an outlier geographically so maybe we shouldn't add Murray State for the same reason" quotes from you and your ISUr allies? Or was this when you had the stability is more important that geography epiphany?

Also, SDSU was in favor of the addition of UND to the Summit/MVFC. NDSU was irritated about it for the same reasons we were irritated with the addition of USD. But the question of UND being a "juggernaut" is pretty weak argument. UND has arguably been the 3rd best team in the conference since they joined. They made the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years.

Frankly I don't care all that much about the addition. Swapping WIU out hurts more from a SL perspective than it does from a MVFC one. But I will be interested to see if the SL petitions for the addition of someone like Northern Colorado how fans of the eastern MVFC schools will react. I can't wait to hear about how important the stability of the SL is to the MVFC. You didn't seem to think the MVFC needed the SL schools a few years ago. Seems like you are having a lot of epiphany's lately.

[clenz]

When you say "we were all adults" I assume you are referencing the university presidents and not yourself? Because all I read from you was "but geography." So how is adding around 300 miles to the Dakota's help us again exactly? Why is it ok to add distance for us and not for yourselves? Where's the "we were against UND because they are an outlier geographically so maybe we shouldn't add Murray State for the same reason" quotes from you and your ISUr allies? Or was this when you had the stability is more important that geography epiphany?

Also, SDSU was in favor of the addition of UND to the Summit/MVFC. NDSU was irritated about it for the same reasons we were irritated with the addition of USD. But the question of UND being a "juggernaut" is pretty weak argument. UND has arguably been the 3rd best team in the conference since they joined. They made the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years.

Frankly I don't care all that much about the addition. Swapping WIU out hurts more from a SL perspective than it does from a MVFC one. But I will be interested to see if the SL petitions for the addition of someone like Northern Colorado how fans of the eastern MVFC schools will react. I can't wait to hear about how important the stability of the SL is to the MVFC. You didn't seem to think the MVFC needed the SL schools a few years ago. Seems like you are having a lot of epiphany's lately.1. Feel free to bring back any posts I made at the time. I may have been pointing geography out based on what I was hearing from "insiders" regarding scheduling agreements. I know I talked about georgraphy when looking at how the split that was talked about behind the scenes. None of it was me bitching about grand forks outside of taking generic pot shots at Grand Forks.

The Dakota schools were more than able to express their same concerns for travel regarding Murray - and they did. This is where the idea of the pod system and protecting all 4 Dakota schools playing each other every year to limit travel came from. That wasn't any eastern schools trying to avoid playing the Dakota 4. It was you 4 making your own demands to always play each other to protect rivalries and limit travel. The only thing eastern schools ever requested, and this wasn't UNI because we are the geographic mid point of the conference, was not going to Fargo one week and then Brookings a week or two later. Or Vermillion and Brookings, or any combo of that nature. Not a refusal to travel. The same negotiations were made to take place in that regard as they were with Murray and the Dakota pod.

My ISUr allies? What allies? The new joke is "Sam Herder hates my team" but before Sam that was me. I hate everyone, including UNI, and everyone, including UNI hates me was the line or something like that.

No one was "against" UND. It was a dislike of the distance but, again, anyone with two brain cells to rub together to actually comprehend what was said, realized that whatever feelings there were of adding a team 70 miles from Canada were significantly outweighed by the stability of the Summit coming first and foremost by miles.

You're also confusing a lot of the bitching about travel coming from UNI or ISUr when the reality the #1 school leading that charge was/has been/will forever be YSU - who if you polled MVC fans would kick their asses from the conference yesterday if we could.

SDSU, outwardly, was supportive of UND. Just as NDSU, USD and every MVC school was. It's why the vote was 10-0 to add them. I know you don't want to believe I know people who know things that aren't public, but the support/happiness behind the scenes was a hell of a lot more than just "they were annoyed the same way as when USD joined". I won't go further than that but if the Summit didn't need them for stability they weren't getting in and it wouldn't have been just MVC schools voting that way.

I still don't think the MVC schools need the Summit schools. Hell, it's not a think. It's a know. It's literally based on rules and comes up every time Dakota fans get all pissy and start demanding SUMMIT LEAGUE FOOTBALL and breaking away. If the Summit schools took their ball and home tomorrow the MVFC still has an autobid. The Summit doesn't. It's now further away from an autobid than it has been since USD joined. Not only have you lost WIU, you now actually have a full conference outside of that which makes the balance to get football schools in with. Welcome to the world of the MVC and balancing it all.

You're down to 4 scholarship football schools, and UST isn't going to add scholarships. They are as likely to do that as Drake or Valpo. UNO is as likely to restart football as Evansville.

You're now at 9 schools, 5 non-football 4 football. Let's say you add Northern Colorado to get to 10 with a 5/5 split. You then are going to want to add 2 more schools, because 11 can work but it gets tricky. Who are you adding? You going all the way to SUU to draw them out of the WAC they just joined? The reality is the Montana schools are going nowhere outside of the MWC if they ever decide they want that. Do you add two more football schools? Is it 1/1 football non-football? You'd only need 1 more football for an AQ, but an AQ conference at 6 schools is real dicey - as the OVC, SLC, Big South, WAC, A-Sun, etc. given only 1 of them has their own actualy conference right now and the others are in their own version of the MVFC. You'll have to stretch to find members with football and you end up with a conference spanning from Utah to Minneapolis and potentially Texas or Arizona.

That's ideal for zero Summit schools. The Valley continues at 7, not needing the Summits, but it's in the best interest of all 11 to continue to make it work. Ask UND what it's like to budget your women's basketball team, volleyball team, softball, etc. to be sending the teams to Utah a couple times a year, and Arizona, etc. is like - and that's if the non-basketball schools agree to add them.

See, this is how I talk about geography, and what you will find when you go back to find the posts you're claiming I made.

You want to add UNC? Fine. I'm perfectly fine with it. Don't give a ****. That would also give us a 12 team conference and allow for a scheduling set up to split based on geography - which is the other form of posts you'll find on that topic from before. What you may construe as me bitching is knowing that UNI, being the geopgrpahic center of the MVFC is the "Eastern school that gets screwed" in it because we 100% get shifted to the Dakotas. That's not complaining, that's stating the reality. Though if it's UNC it might shift UNI east as UNI going west was with WIU. You'd probably see Dakota 4, MOSU, UNC as pod partners and then the rest on the other side.

You're projecting a lot of posts I didn't make on me. You're projecting a lot of anger and insecurity at me that belongs to someone else. Your anger is based on you being so worked up reading my posts that you just assume everything is a slam or complaint, when if you would just back the **** up for a few seconds and actually comprehend what's said is none of that.

I've also said I wouldn't care if the Summit tried to do it's own thing. I think it would be a disaster of a move that ends up jsut causing the Summit to continue to be the conference of misfit toys turning over year after year just as it's been for 3 decades now. I can understand the want for it, I just really struggle to see a feasible way to actually do it. The Valley will continue to exist. I think it's in the best interest of everyone for the Valley to continue to exist as it has since 2008.

You also weren't around when UND was added to the MVFC, unless you changed your screenname and are ashamed to admit who you were so that it can't be used in reference to things you've said before.

[taper]

The MVC fans have it completely wrong with the opposition to Murray St. The Dakotas weren't opposed to Murray, we were opposed having 12 members in the MVFC. Not playing 4 teams every year but always the other Dakotas is an absurdly unbalanced schedule. Just look at the huge Big Sky conference. They're constantly having a decent but not great team win the conference due to lucky scheduling, getting a playoff seed, then losing their first game.

[taper]

I also want to rebutt this idea that NDSU is butt hurt about not getting a MVC invite. We truly don't care. There is ZERO fan or admin discussion about that. What we want is a G5 invite or a super conference with Dakotas/Montanas/Idahos. Not placing odds on those but the MVC isn't mentioned at all.
I always love an excuse to bring up the fact that in the last 5 years us Summit knuckle-draggers have only earned 7 MBB units, while the ivory tower MVC has...8. We've both made the Sweet 16 once in that time. Since we have fewer members the per school distribution is actually higher. Plus all our earners are still in the conference.
In the end, all we need is for the Summit to survive until Johnson v NCAA makes all D1 athletes employees and the entire division is reshaped. The Dakotas will still be here and as always a rock solid core for a midwest conference. Can't say the same about most of the MVC schools.

[SDFS]

I'm sure it won't apply to us for at least a few years, but I'm trying to determine if our chances of making the playoffs are better in the OVC or the MVFC...

Wins: Of course, our chances of getting regular season wins are higher in the OVC. That'll happen when the best teams you play in the conference go from NDSU and SDSU to SEMO and UT Martin.
Autobid: We also have a better chance of getting the conference auto bid than in the MVFC. I don't really see any MVFC team beating out NDSU or SDSU for the conference championship for quite a while.
At-Large Bids: On the other hand, if you play in the MVFC and finish 7-4 in a season with five wins in the conference (for example, North Dakota last year), you can pick up an at-large bid. Meanwhile, UT Martin, who also had a 7-4 record with five conference wins, did not. I'm not saying this is wrong...I absolutely understand the reasoning and fully support it...I'm just trying to figure out what the "target" is for the OVC now (I know 7-4 was the generally accepted "target" for the MVFC outside of a couple of unusual situations where a 6-5 team made it in).

2022 - SEMO gets the auto-bid at 5-0 in the conference with a 9-2 overall record. UT Martin doesn't get in with 5-0 in the conference and 7-4 overall, being co-champions with SEMO but losing the auto-bid due to a coin flip.
2021 - UT Martin gets the auto-bid at 5-1 in the conference with a 9-2 overall record. Next best team in the conference only has a 6-5 overall record.
2020 - doesn't count
2019 - Austin Peay gets the auto-bid with a 7-1 conference record and 9-3 overall. SEMO gets an at-large with an identical record (APSU won the head-to-head matchup) and a #17 ranking. The OVC at the time was a more challenging conference, with EKU, Austin Peay, and Jacksonville State all in it.

It's hard to say where the line falls, but my guess at this point is:
7-4 - you're staying home
8-3 - maybe depending on your resume
9-2 or better - probably in

Does that sound about right to anyone else? Or is 8-3 more into the "likely staying home" category for the OVC?

Looking at other at-large teams from "mid to lower tier" conferences last year:
Southland - Incarnate Word is a conference co-champ (SELA gets the auto bid with the same record + H2H win) and receives an at-large with a 5-1 record in the conference, 10-1 overall record, and a Top 10 ranking.
SWAC - Florida A&M get left out at 7-1 in the conference and 9-2 overall, although the previous year they got in with the same record.
Patriot League - Fordham gets an at-large with a 9-2 overall record and 5-1 in the conference.

Also, in 2021, Southeastern Louisiana gets an at-large out of the Southland with an 8-3 overall record (even losing their last 2 out of 3 games) and 6-2 in the conference.

Thoughts?

All comes down to nonconference schedule. Schedule typical Top 20 teams and win those games and that team should be good to go.

[ST_Lawson]

All comes down to nonconference schedule. Schedule typical Top 20 teams and win those games and that team should be good to go.

UNI...let's do this.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Cool. I'm not sure why that upsets NDSU fans as much as it does.

WIU and Indiana State have been bottom of the Valley forever as well. Someone has to be, why does it matter who as long as it's not you? The way it sits right now the Valley traded WIU for Murray, nothing changes in the big picture except the trip now goes to a town that starts with M and ends with urray rather than acomb.

I don't understand the "We shouldn't add someone like Murray we need to add another top 15 type program". Why? We already play 6-7 ranked games in the conference every year. Why add another one in? If anything this should make NDSU fans happy because it drops a bad team out of the conference. WIU has 4 total wins in 4 years. They've won more than 5 conference games just 3 times since they Gateway/Valley formed in 1985 and none of them since 2002. Hell, they've won 5 conference games just 7 times in that time span. That means in 37 years - and lett's call it 38 becayse it's not happening this year - WIU has won more than 4 conference games 10 total times and 5 of them came between 97-03. That just 26% of the seasons they played in the Gateway/Valley they were better than a 4 conference win team. Murray literally can't be much worse.

No one should be surprised by this move by the OVC and/or WIU. The OVC has been VERY open about a standing invitation to WIU and WIU has openly said "Not right now, but things could change pending funding and the Summit moving forward". They never told them no, it was "Not now, but eventually". Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knew Murray and WIU being traded was going to be the ultimate result, even if it wasn't the same year. The OVC has strongly come out and said their alliance with the Big South is temporary and they want to be their own auto-bid conference again. To do that they needed to find schools to come in and WIU was a no-brainer.



xlolx

Nice stretch junior. We lose one bottom feeder for another. I'd prefer 9 teams so that all teams can get to play all conference members.

Maybe UNI should join the OVC for football also so they can get back to their glory days of being the top dog, which will never happen again...xnodxxlolx

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I would guess that they're butt hurt over not getting an invitation to the MVC and they lash out when and how they can. They joined the MVFC in 2008. Since then the MVC has added Loyola, Valparaiso, Belmont, UIC & Murray State. Murray State is the only one with football and they haven't been good so they're an easy target.


Pffft.....MVC is not some pinnacle conference and the Summit is just fine. If you think calling them a perennial bottom feeder is lashing out then go for it big guy if that makes you UNI clowns feel better....xnodx

[atthewbon]

I think the status quo with the MVFC is probably the best option (I would like a combination with the Montana schools but realize it's unlikely). But hypothetically is needing an autobid required for a hypothetical summit football. When was the last time an MVFC team wouldn't have gotten into the playoffs if it weren't for the autobid? Is there a rule where an autobid is required for members to participate in the playoffs? A 5 team football conference of SDSU, NDSU, UND, USD, St Thomas/Northern Colorado could still conceviably get 3 teams in the playoffs as at large selections. There would be other huge issues when it comes to scheduling and that's what ultimately will prevent something this from happening. I would personally prefer staying in the MVFC vs doing something like this with 5 or 6 teams but I don't know if not having an autobid would be a big deal.

[ST_Lawson]

But hypothetically is needing an autobid required for a hypothetical summit football. When was the last time an MVFC team wouldn't have gotten into the playoffs if it weren't for the autobid? Is there a rule where an autobid is required for members to participate in the playoffs?

I don't think there's a rule against it, but there are requirements in terms of the number of sports that are sponsored:


Under NCAA regulations, all Division I conferences defined as "multisport conferences" must meet the following criteria:



A total of at least seven active Division I members.
Separate from the above, at least seven active Division I members that sponsor both men's and women's basketball.
Sponsorship of at least 12 NCAA Division I sports.
Minimum of six men's sports, with the following additional restrictions:

Men's basketball is a mandatory sport, and at least seven members must sponsor that sport.
Non-football conferences must sponsor at least two men's team sports other than basketball.
At least six members must sponsor five men's sports other than basketball, including either football or two other team sports.


Minimum of six women's sports, with the following additional restrictions:

Women's basketball is a mandatory sport, with at least seven members sponsoring that sport.
At least two other women's team sports must be sponsored.
At least six members must sponsor five women's sports other than basketball, including two other team sports. If a conference officially sponsors an NCAA "emerging sport" for women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Emerging_Sports_for_Women) (as of 2020, acrobatics & tumbling, equestrianism, rugby union, triathlon, or wrestling), that sport will be counted if five members (instead of six) sponsor it.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_conferences

If you start running into having too few teams playing a sport, then I think you don't get any autobids (including in sports like Basketball). So, it's not just a matter of the football autobid to the FCS playoffs, but the Summit League might then be in danger of not having their autobid to the NCAA Basketball Tournament anymore.

As it stands right now, the Summit League in 23/24 will have 6 teams playing baseball (which is fine, but any fewer and there are issues) and only 5 teams playing Men's Soccer (which is too few, but you should get a year or two leeway to find at least one more school that plays it). Summit League as a non-football conference needs 2 men's team sports other than basketball (soccer and baseball are those currently). If they added football as a 5-team sport, that won't help towards having enough sports, but shouldn't hurt anything. Essentially, the SL needs to either add at least 1 team playing men's soccer (or an associate men's soccer member), or add football and find a way to get to 6 teams. The 4 Dakota schools + Northern Colorado + St. Thomas (if they added scholarship football)/Augustana (if they go DI) would work.

[taper]

Don't forget the other option of folding NCHC hockey into the Summit. That solves all our immediate problems. I know the NCHC members aren't keen on it, but 3 of them are now in danger of losing their primary home. Summit commissioner used to run the NCHC and apparently is well respected by them. Imperfect, but maybe the best option at the moment.

[nodak651]

Don't forget the other option of folding NCHC hockey into the Summit. That solves all our immediate problems. I know the NCHC members aren't keen on it, but 3 of them are now in danger of losing their primary home. Summit commissioner used to run the NCHC and apparently is well respected by them. Imperfect, but maybe the best option at the moment.

Can that be done without the hockey schools taking on the risk of a hockey version of Murray State to the MVFC? Say, for a school like Lindenwood? There is a lot of risk for a school like UND if the other Dakota schools are going to be able to have any say over the their golden goose (hockey). For example, would a streaming deal for the Summit League and hockey be packaged together? If so, how would revenue be split? There are definitely benefits to that model with economies of scale and championship level programs, but who gets to make those decisions and how are they made? For example, the model for NCHC streaming would not work for the Summit League, because it's too expensive ($116/year, $30/month, $16/day) and it doesn't provide the national exposure that the basketball programs would want. But that works for hockey because it's a niche sport. For the hockey schools, the benefit is that 80-85% of the revenue goes back directly back to the schools, based on the fan affinity selected by the subscribers. UND made over $500K from this last year. Would they be forced to give up that model for an ESPN deal, or would the league want to split all revenues somehow? Would the NCHC and Summit basketball tournaments continue to take place over the same weekend? Would the NCHC tournament format be influenced in any way by non-hockey Summit members?

I'm not against the idea, because I think that could keep a school like St. Thomas or Omaha from bolting to the MVC or Denver to the WAC, but there are a ton of details that would need to be hammered out, and I think if it happens, it would take a couple years. If the NCHC and Summit merge somehow, I think it would occur when St. Thomas opens their new arena.

Any guesses on how those issues would best be resolved?

[BisonFan02]

Can that be done without the hockey schools taking on the risk of a hockey version of Murray State to the MVFC? Say, for a school like Lindenwood? There is a lot of risk for a school like UND if the other Dakota schools are going to be able to have any say over the their golden goose (hockey). For example, would a streaming deal for the Summit League and hockey be packaged together? If so, how would revenue be split? There are definitely benefits to that model with economies of scale and championship level programs, but who gets to make those decisions and how are they made? For example, the model for NCHC streaming would not work for the Summit League, because it's too expensive ($116/year, $30/month, $16/day) and it doesn't provide the national exposure that the basketball programs would want. But that works for hockey because it's a niche sport. For the hockey schools, the benefit is that 80-85% of the revenue goes back directly back to the schools, based on the fan affinity selected by the subscribers. UND made over $500K from this last year. Would they be forced to give up that model for an ESPN deal, or would the league want to split all revenues somehow? Would the NCHC and Summit basketball tournaments continue to take place over the same weekend? Would the NCHC tournament format be influenced in any way by non-hockey Summit members?

I'm not against the idea, because I think that could keep a school like St. Thomas or Omaha from bolting to the MVC or Denver to the WAC, but there are a ton of details that would need to be hammered out, and I think if it happens, it would take a couple years. If the NCHC and Summit merge somehow, I think it would occur when St. Thomas opens their new arena.

Any guesses on how those issues would best be resolved?


Hockey at no point is going to prevent St. Thomas from making a MVC or similar basketball move.

[nodak651]

Hockey at no point is going to prevent St. Thomas from making a MVC or similar basketball move.

That depends on ticket sales, fan affinity, and national success. If hockey is more popular, generates more revenue, and is in the picture for national titles, I don't see them dropping out of the best hockey conference in the west for the MVC. The difference between the MVC and the Summit isn't great enough to be worth it. Especially if the Summit League improves at all and if ORU can maintain their success. Now if the MVC becomes a multi bid league again with it's existing membership, that would change things, but I don't think that will be a common occurrence. St. Thomas becoming THE dominant Summit League basketball program could also change the picture, but that's far from a certainty as well.

[taper]

Can that be done without the hockey schools taking on the risk of a hockey version of Murray State to the MVFC? Say, for a school like Lindenwood? There is a lot of risk for a school like UND if the other Dakota schools are going to be able to have any say over the their golden goose (hockey). For example, would a streaming deal for the Summit League and hockey be packaged together? If so, how would revenue be split? There are definitely benefits to that model with economies of scale and championship level programs, but who gets to make those decisions and how are they made? For example, the model for NCHC streaming would not work for the Summit League, because it's too expensive ($116/year, $30/month, $16/day) and it doesn't provide the national exposure that the basketball programs would want. But that works for hockey because it's a niche sport. For the hockey schools, the benefit is that 80-85% of the revenue goes back directly back to the schools, based on the fan affinity selected by the subscribers. UND made over $500K from this last year. Would they be forced to give up that model for an ESPN deal, or would the league want to split all revenues somehow? Would the NCHC and Summit basketball tournaments continue to take place over the same weekend? Would the NCHC tournament format be influenced in any way by non-hockey Summit members?

I'm not against the idea, because I think that could keep a school like St. Thomas or Omaha from bolting to the MVC or Denver to the WAC, but there are a ton of details that would need to be hammered out, and I think if it happens, it would take a couple years. If the NCHC and Summit merge somehow, I think it would occur when St. Thomas opens their new arena.

Any guesses on how those issues would best be resolved?
This is why Josh Fenton gets paid. WIU leaving wasn't exactly a surprise, if he can't figure something out then the Summit folds and he's out of a job with a significant career block. I don't think that'll happen. We have 2 years to get a deal done.

[nodak651]

This is why Josh Fenton gets paid. WIU leaving wasn't exactly a surprise, if he can't figure something out then the Summit folds and he's out of a job with a significant career block. I don't think that'll happen. We have 2 years to get a deal done.

Yeah, I'm not worried about it. He will figure it out whether it's hockey or something else.

[HAL_9000]

Mr. Clenz, I have perused this board for over 20 years.

You love facts, you also love to pick and choose your statistics. Wtf is WIU has not had more than x amount of +5 win conference showings? Yeah, neither has MSU, ISUb, ISUr, YSU, ....didn't look up the Dakotas.

WIU has more wining seasons in the Gateway that all members but UNI, WIU also has more winning seasons than any other team except UNI.....of course that is not a fair metric, one should judge on winning percentage, however you are accustomed to picking and choosing stats....

WIU has 20 winning seasons in 37 years second most in the Gateway/Valley the exception being UNI.

just for reference...

ISUr has 18 winning seasons in 37 years.
SIU has 14 winning seasons in 37 years.
MSU has 12 winning seasons in 37 years.
ISUb has 7 winning seasons in 35 years.
USD has 2 winning season in 11 years.


The way I see things is UNI is at it's lowest enrollment in 55 years. UNI was used to being top dog, but, now has not won a conference championship in 12 years time. True to your nature you feel better when you can belittle a person or institution because you feel insecure or bad about your own situation.

Perhaps what is most telling is UNI will never be what it once was and you can't bear it! Better to disparage someone else than look in the mirror.

Meanwhile WIU is doing what was overdue and shifted as what once was the MVFC and Summit are the the same conferences in name only. There is true leadership at the helm of WIU.

With UNI's alarming decline in enrollment and lack of success on the field in may be prudent to look into alternatives. One wouldn't want to be caught flat footed.

Cheers

[clenz]

Mr. Clenz, I have perused this board for over 20 years.

You love facts, you also love to pick and choose your statistics. Wtf is WIU has not had more than x amount of +5 win conference showings? Yeah, neither has MSU, ISUb, ISUr, YSU, ....didn't look up the Dakotas.

WIU has more wining seasons in the Gateway that all members but UNI, WIU also has more winning seasons than any other team except UNI.....of course that is not a fair metric, one should judge on winning percentage, however you are accustomed to picking and choosing stats....

WIU has 20 winning seasons in 37 years second most in the Gateway/Valley the exception being UNI.

just for reference...

ISUr has 18 winning seasons in 37 years.
SIU has 14 winning seasons in 37 years.
MSU has 12 winning seasons in 37 years.
ISUb has 7 winning seasons in 35 years.
USD has 2 winning season in 11 years.


The way I see things is UNI is at it's lowest enrollment in 55 years. UNI was used to being top dog, but, now has not won a conference championship in 12 years time. True to your nature you feel better when you can belittle a person or institution because you feel insecure or bad about your own situation.

Perhaps what is most telling is UNI will never be what it once was and you can't bear it! Better to disparage someone else than look in the mirror.

Meanwhile WIU is doing what was overdue and shifted as what once was the MVFC and Summit are the the same conferences in name only. There is true leadership at the helm of WIU.

With UNI's alarming decline in enrollment and lack of success on the field in may be prudent to look into alternatives. One wouldn't want to be caught flat footed.

CheersA lot of words to ignore I was talking about conference wins.

Yes, you have more wins than those other programs, you've already been in the conference longer than they have. The Detroit Lions are 9th all time in NFL history for wins. It's not cherry picking stats, it's bringing in relevant stats. WIU has finished top half of the conference 6 times in the last 23 years - 3 of those came before 2004

I brought up USD in this thread. UND is too new to really judge, but they've done more in 3 years than WIU has in the last 20 - even with that UND has been in the league 3 years has made the playoffs twice and shared a conference title. I pointed out how awful USD has been since they joined the league - yet they managed to make the playoffs twice.

No one ever claimed ISUr was an amazing program - but they have title game appearances, conference titles, other playoff appearances and wins recently.

I'm well on record pointing out similar trends with ISUb and MOSU. I'm on record many many many times calling ISUb between 2002-2009 the worst scholarship program in the country. Yet somehow they have playoff appearances and wins more recently.

UNI has it's own problems, I've not been shy about that. I'm well on record bitching about UNI more than anyone else. Even with that somehow WIU is the only school with a smaller football budget than UNI in the MVFC. I've been the most outspoken about the AD at UNI - yet one of our two schools is leaving it's conference because it can't compete and the other is working on a $50m stadium renovation. Your leadership is doing what's best for the school, and that's great....WIU and UNI are not the same

Perhaps it's not me picking on WIU, or USD, or UND, or MOSU, or ISUb, or anyone else as you all love to claim I'm doing. Perhaps I use the same research and same talking points for every single school, including UNI.

UNI's decline in enrollment isn't new. I've discussed that here, and it was recovering pre-covid and has seen a similar % drop to every peer institution and it's rebounding now. The enrollment became an issue because of the president we had from 99-06. He got scared at the idea of UNI being larger than 15k and put in place enrollment cuts, admission cuts, etc. and it had a lingering effect which has taken time to recover from along with Covid. The 5 year forecast has UNI recovering all covid losses and then some.

I've said, for years, here and other social media sites this move was/is/would be smart by WIU and the OVC. I've said I hate to see it happen because they are a founding Gateway member and I've never had a bad interaction with WIU fans in CF, in Macomb, or here.

Perhaps what you did is futher prove my statements regarding WIU being a program that made the most out of being in a meh conference int he 80s and 90s and then caught a small glimpse of lightning in 98-03 and what has happened to that program since 03 proves my point.

You want to point at projection from me? Perhaps your reply is the epitome of projecting your hurt about how far WIU has fallen as a program and school at me beacuse I had the nerve to not hide how my thoughts on how far WIU fell.

[HAL_9000]

Good post.

[HAL_9000]

I'm getting older, (I guess we all are or we wouldn't be typing or looking at this thread)

Mr. Clenz have I forgotten a bet you lost or what...what is the deal with your Avatar?

I say with respect.

[clenz]

I'm getting older, (I guess we all are or we wouldn't be typing or looking at this thread)

Mr. Clenz have I forgotten a bet you lost or what...what is the deal with your Avatar?

I say with respect.TL;DR version

When I was a voting member of the AGS Poll I got angry at a rule surrounding a very specific case that got my vote tossed about a decade ago - so I changed my "home team" to MVSU to avoid that very specific rule which never came back up anyway. It just stuck and I've been a MVSU fan ever since. I've gone to MVSU games, bought MVSU gear. Had people very confused when the met me that I did not "look" like a MVSU fan.

I'm forever a Delta Devil.

Also it's a bad ass logo. There was a time where I altered it to be purple and yellow to fit UNI into it, but it just looks better in red and green.

[Laker]

TL;DR version

When I was a voting member of the AGS Poll I got angry at a rule surrounding a very specific case that got my vote tossed about a decade ago - so I changed my "home team" to MVSU to avoid that very specific rule which never came back up anyway. It just stuck and I've been a MVSU fan ever since. I've gone to MVSU games, bought MVSU gear. Had people very confused when the met me that I did not "look" like a MVSU fan.

I'm forever a Delta Devil.

Also it's a bad ass logo. There was a time where I altered it to be purple and yellow to fit UNI into it, but it just looks better in red and green.

When I first met you in Fargo for the NDSU-MVSU you were wearing the Delta Devil t-shirt.

[BisonFan02]

MVSU and UNI have the same # of nattys

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

TL;DR version

When I was a voting member of the AGS Poll I got angry at a rule surrounding a very specific case that got my vote tossed about a decade ago - so I changed my "home team" to MVSU to avoid that very specific rule which never came back up anyway. It just stuck and I've been a MVSU fan ever since. I've gone to MVSU games, bought MVSU gear. Had people very confused when the met me that I did not "look" like a MVSU fan.

I'm forever a Delta Devil.

Also it's a bad ass logo. There was a time where I altered it to be purple and yellow to fit UNI into it, but it just looks better in red and green.



You're a legend in your own mind!

xlolx

[HAL_9000]

TL;DR version

When I was a voting member of the AGS Poll I got angry at a rule surrounding a very specific case that got my vote tossed about a decade ago - so I changed my "home team" to MVSU to avoid that very specific rule which never came back up anyway. It just stuck and I've been a MVSU fan ever since. I've gone to MVSU games, bought MVSU gear. Had people very confused when the met me that I did not "look" like a MVSU fan.

I'm forever a Delta Devil.

Also it's a bad ass logo. There was a time where I altered it to be purple and yellow to fit UNI into it, but it just looks better in red and green.

A man of principles is a man I can respect. I did not know the nuances or the timeline of the Delta Devils. Hahaha, I would be careful you have enough brand presence here you may receive a cease and desist lol.

I also wanted to clear the air with you Clenz, some of WIU's loss of luster can clearly be attributed to certain people taking the University in a......I'm not allowed to say more. Bradley went through "The lost decade" with Joanne Glasser and Michael Cross. With their ineptitude, they were convincing anyone that would listen that Bradley should go DII, stronger minds prevailed and things worked out.

It is unnerving to know that just one or two people at a University can do severe damage. Welp, guess i got of on a tangent. Thank you Clenz for the Delta Devils stuff and thank you for keeping it edgy. I just have to remember to take my blood pressure pills before I log in.