Why are we being so arrogant?...

[SuperEagle]

Is it just me or does it seem like the selection committee has really turned down their noses on DII schools. They have sent a message that playing them means nothing and will not help you if you ever want to make the post-season. My question is why? Why do they look so down upon them?
I remember it used to make me furious that many of our FCS schools could not get a FBS mid major to play us. Their reasoning was that it would not help them become bowl eligible. I, like many FCS fans, thought it was ridiculous that a win over an FCS school would not really even count as a win toward the FBS schools. It would hurt their bowl eligibility. So my Eagles could only get games with the big boys like FSU, Fla, Miami, Aub, Uga. Teams that knew they could still get the required 6 FBS wins so it wouldn't really hurt them. Then I was ecstatic when the NCAA declared that those games would indeed count toward bowl eligibility. It gave many FCS teams a chance to play mid-majors. It even gave my Eagles games again CSU and Navy in a few years.
So the FBS finally treated us fairly. And what have we now done? Turned our noses down on our DII friends virtually making it very unwise for an FCS school to play them in the future. We, who were so wanting a shot at the "big boys" and finally got one, have sent a message to the DII's that they won't be getting a shot anymore.
Seems terrible to do this. We hated when it was done to us and now we are going to do the exact same thing to them.
Could we not make a rule that 1 DII win a season will count toward the post-season like the FBS did? If we don't, the DII's aren't going to get a chance to prove their worth. Seems a shame to me.

[bostonspider]

I guess the difference is that FCS or FBS, we are all Division I, while DII is a completely different entity

[Appdad]

It just as important to the D-II schools to get games from a FCS school as it is for a FCS school to get games with a FBS schools.

[griz_fan_in_SanDiego]

I agree with most of this...I think we all know there are some DII schools that could beat a substantial number of FCS schools just like there are some FCS schools that can beat a substantial number of FBS schools. I think they should count towards playoff eligability. Perhaps put a cap at 1 or something.

I'll go ahead and say it for my App friends cuz i'm sure it will come up...THEY BEAT MICHIGAN :D

[turfdoc]

I agree with this post whole heartily. In fact I would venture to say that many DII schools could beat a lot of non-scholly DI schools. The fact that the committee ignores this is assinine, I can see them ignoring NAIA because they are outside the organization completely.

I think it is a farce to act as if most non-scholly DI schools are better than the DII play-off schools, they simply are not.

[JohnStOnge]

I agree with this post whole heartily. In fact I would venture to say that many DII schools could beat a lot of non-scholly DI schools. The fact that the committee ignores this is assinine, I can see them ignoring NAIA because they are outside the organization completely.

I think it is a farce to act as if most non-scholly DI schools are better than the DII play-off schools, they simply are not.

Me too. For example: Southern Illinois got more credit for getting a win over Southern Utah this year than it would have if it would have, instead, played a North Dakota team that beat Southern Utah 37-10.

I really think it'd be better if the committee use some kind of power rating system that rates schools at all levels in an effort to do the best it can to look at the strength of opponents regardless of classification.

[USDFAN_55]

I agree with this post whole heartily. In fact I would venture to say that many DII schools could beat a lot of non-scholly DI schools. The fact that the committee ignores this is assinine, I can see them ignoring NAIA because they are outside the organization completely.

I think it is a farce to act as if most non-scholly DI schools are better than the DII play-off schools, they simply are not.

This is not a non-scholly issue. This is an FCS issue.... like it or not we are all classified the samexnodx

[DetroitFlyer]

I agree with this post whole heartily. In fact I would venture to say that many DII schools could beat a lot of non-scholly DI schools. The fact that the committee ignores this is assinine, I can see them ignoring NAIA because they are outside the organization completely.

I think it is a farce to act as if most non-scholly DI schools are better than the DII play-off schools, they simply are not.

Guess what? Division II playoff schools just might beat ANY FCS school. Heck, Division III Mount Union would beat a fair number of FCS schools.

[The Moody1]

This is not a non-scholly issue. This is an FCS issue.... like it or not we are all classified the samexnodx

You hit the nail on the head. Hopefully this problem will be addressed and corrected in four years. You guys would probably be pretty dominate in D-II. ;)

[JDC325]

I agree with this post whole heartily. In fact I would venture to say that many DII schools could beat a lot of non-scholly DI schools. The fact that the committee ignores this is assinine, I can see them ignoring NAIA because they are outside the organization completely.

I think it is a farce to act as if most non-scholly DI schools are better than the DII play-off schools, they simply are not.

Dead on I do not want to see Delta State, Chadron, Grand Valley or Valdosta on GSU's schedule anytime soon. It is a joke first of all the FCS does not require scholarships and that a win over Iona would count more than over Chadron or Grand Valley becasue they would kick the crap out of most FCS teams. The gap between DIV II and the FCS is not very wide.

[USDFAN_55]

You hit the nail on the head. Hopefully this problem will be addressed and corrected in four years. You guys would probably be pretty dominate in D-II. ;)

what problem is this you speak of..... oh you mean the fact that a school can compete without spending a ton of money? You say we don't give scholarships, and then everyone is so surprised that we give academic merit awards to players on the team (essentially making them scholar athletes in most eyes), that is well within the bylaws of the NCAA (discussed in a past thread). Maybe this thread should be called "why are we so arrogant to think scholarships make us better than non-scholarship?"xnodx Some of you guys make me laughxlolx

[turfdoc]

You hit the nail on the head. Hopefully this problem will be addressed and corrected in four years. You guys would probably be pretty dominate in D-II. ;)

Here here

[USDFAN_55]

I agree with this post whole heartily. In fact I would venture to say that many DII schools could beat a lot of non-scholly DI schools. The fact that the committee ignores this is assinine, I can see them ignoring NAIA because they are outside the organization completely.

I think it is a farce to act as if most non-scholly DI schools are better than the DII play-off schools, they simply are not.

These D-II schools also beat your beloved scholarship FCS programs as well. xnodx

[danefan]

I actually don't think the non-DI games criteria is intended to be aimed at games against DII schools offering the full 28 schollys (or whatever the DII limit is). I think its aimed at teams playing the non-scholarship DII schools and DIII schools, which games are more prevelant than games against the top DII schools.

How its used by the committee is another story. However, I also think this is the reason the 7 DI wins is not a concrete rule, but rather a guideline. The committee has the ability to look at someone's schedule and determine whether the sub-DI game they played was worth considering as a DI game or not. Whether they do this or not I don't know.

I think the intention of the rule is to be similar to the "counter" rule for bowl eligibility in FBS. Maybe a similar rule would work well in FCS for sub-DI games. For example "DII schools offering "X" of scholarships do not count against an FCS team for purposes of playoff criteria." Or "DII schools offering "X" scholarships are to be treated as FCS schools for purposes of FCS playoff selection."

[Umass74]

We have to remember that FCS games count towards Bowl eligibility for Bowl games.

While DII games do not count towards playoff eligibility in FCS.

And rightly so. We're all trying to make one of the toughest criteria in Football, namely making the 16 team out of 122 school FCS playoff.

Does anybody want to compete for a playoff slot with another FCS school that schedules three or four DII schools? How would that be fair? Playing even one DII school is a significant advantage if that win is going to be counted. It has nothing to do with how good the DII team is.

As long as we have a 16 team playoff system, I'm dead set against DII wins counting.

[terrierbob]

Speaking of Div.II, when are their playoffs?

[danefan]

We have to remember that FCS games count towards Bowl eligibility for Bowl games.

While DII games do not count towards playoff eligibility in FCS.

And rightly so. We're all trying to make one of the toughest criteria in Football, namely making the 16 team out of 122 school FCS playoff.

Does anybody want to compete for a playoff slot with another FCS school that schedules three or four DII schools? How would that be fair? Playing even one DII school is a significant advantage if that win is going to be counted. It has nothing to do with how good the DII team is.

As long as we have a 16 team playoff system, I'm dead set against DII wins counting.

Not all FCS games count for bowl eligibility. Only "counter" schools.

[danefan]

Speaking of Div.II, when are their playoffs?

Going on now. Round 1 was last weekend.

[poly51]

I think 1 D-II win should count. Just like 1 FCS win counts for FBS teams. A win over a very good D-II team would help you and a win over a mediocre D-II would not help much. It would help scheduling for a lot of teams. D-II football teams can be very good.

Cal Poly was D-II from 1978 through 1993. Their record as a D-II was 3-10 against I-A teams and 4-7 against I-AA. And they were not playing cream puffs. They beat Boise State in 1980, the year Boise State was I-AA national champion. They also beat Fresno State twice including a 26-0 shutout.

[terrierbob]

Going on now. Round 1 was last weekend.

I'm guessing the only game televised is the championship?

[flyenhigh]

I guess the difference is that FCS or FBS, we are all Division I, while DII is a completely different entity


Why would you say this?? Not true at all.

[flyenhigh]

what problem is this you speak of..... oh you mean the fact that a school can compete without spending a ton of money? You say we don't give scholarships, and then everyone is so surprised that we give academic merit awards to players on the team (essentially making them scholar athletes in most eyes), that is well within the bylaws of the NCAA (discussed in a past thread). Maybe this thread should be called "why are we so arrogant to think scholarships make us better than non-scholarship?"xnodx Some of you guys make me laughxlolx


It is called ignorance.xxmasx

[kardplayer]

Is it just me or does it seem like the selection committee has really turned down their noses on DII schools. They have sent a message that playing them means nothing and will not help you if you ever want to make the post-season. My question is why? Why do they look so down upon them?
I remember it used to make me furious that many of our FCS schools could not get a FBS mid major to play us. Their reasoning was that it would not help them become bowl eligible. I, like many FCS fans, thought it was ridiculous that a win over an FCS school would not really even count as a win toward the FBS schools. It would hurt their bowl eligibility. So my Eagles could only get games with the big boys like FSU, Fla, Miami, Aub, Uga. Teams that knew they could still get the required 6 FBS wins so it wouldn't really hurt them. Then I was ecstatic when the NCAA declared that those games would indeed count toward bowl eligibility. It gave many FCS teams a chance to play mid-majors. It even gave my Eagles games again CSU and Navy in a few years.
So the FBS finally treated us fairly. And what have we now done? Turned our noses down on our DII friends virtually making it very unwise for an FCS school to play them in the future. We, who were so wanting a shot at the "big boys" and finally got one, have sent a message to the DII's that they won't be getting a shot anymore.
Seems terrible to do this. We hated when it was done to us and now we are going to do the exact same thing to them.
Could we not make a rule that 1 DII win a season will count toward the post-season like the FBS did? If we don't, the DII's aren't going to get a chance to prove their worth. Seems a shame to me.

The whole reason to only count DI games is not to say that ALL DI schools are better than ALL DII schools (because they are not). The rule is an incentive to get FCS schools to actually play EACH OTHER instead of scheduling out of division.

Perhaps if Georgia Southern had played and beat Nicholls State (who played Southern Arkansas) on Sept 8 instead of West Georgia, they would be in the playoffs.

[kardplayer]

They also could have played Alabama A&M - an even shorter ride.

[Kelly Green]

I'm guessing the only game televised is the championship?

...and semi-finals (http://www.ncaasports.com/football/mens/brackets/straight32_dyn/2007/DII).

[Franks Tanks]

Dead on I do not want to see Delta State, Chadron, Grand Valley or Valdosta on GSU's schedule anytime soon. It is a joke first of all the FCS does not require scholarships and that a win over Iona would count more than over Chadron or Grand Valley becasue they would kick the crap out of most FCS teams. The gap between DIV II and the FCS is not very wide.


I agree when your talking about the absolute top of D-II. For example we had the PSAC game of the week televised this year in Eastern PA. The PSAC isnt the best D-II conference in land but it is one of the better ones. They had three teams in the playoffs this year in California(Pa), IUP, and West Chester. A few times this year I wathed the PSAC game, many times with these playoff teams, at the same time as a locally televised Lehigh or Lafayette game (flipping over at commercials). Seeing both teams playing at the same time was educational, now the PSAC teams are solid and have some very good players, but from top to bottom you could tell the Lafayette and Lehigh games were being played at a higher level. The linemen were larger, more athletic, and better conditioned. The backs seemed faster are stronger. Also the PL teams were absolutely running more sophisticated schemes and were coached better (this may be attributed to more practice time). I understand your point but also I think we have to understand that after the Nebraska-Omaha, North Dakota, Grand Valley, Valdosta, and Delta States of the D-II world there is a large drop off

[blukeys]

Guess what? Division II playoff schools just might beat ANY FCS school. Heck, Division III Mount Union would beat a fair number of FCS schools.


And all of the PFL. xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

[SuperEagle]

The whole reason to only count DI games is not to say that ALL DI schools are better than ALL DII schools (because they are not). The rule is an incentive to get FCS schools to actually play EACH OTHER instead of scheduling out of division.

Perhaps if Georgia Southern had played and beat Nicholls State (who played Southern Arkansas) on Sept 8 instead of West Georgia, they would be in the playoffs.
**
it's tougher than you think to schedule 4 OOC opponents. West Georgia wanted to play us and we gave them their shot. I really don't see anything wrong with that. We could have played Savannah State who is less than an hour away. But we gave a DII their shot. Now, most of us would probably agree that the majority of DII's could probably beat SSU. But we gave an in state DII a chance to play us. Likewise Colorado State gave us a chance to play an FBS to finish the year.
In Georgia their are several DII schools. I always thought it was nice to occasionally play them. To give them a chance that the FBS teams give us. However, it seems apparent that the scheduling of these games may now stop. That's very unfortunate.

[kardplayer]

**
it's tougher than you think to schedule 4 OOC opponents. West Georgia wanted to play us and we gave them their shot. I really don't see anything wrong with that. We could have played Savannah State who is less than an hour away. But we gave a DII their shot. Now, most of us would probably agree that the majority of DII's could probably beat SSU. But we gave an in state DII a chance to play us. Likewise Colorado State gave us a chance to play an FBS to finish the year.
In Georgia their are several DII schools. I always thought it was nice to occasionally play them. To give them a chance that the FBS teams give us. However, it seems apparent that the scheduling of these games may now stop. That's very unfortunate.

You can't have your cake and eat it too - its the FCS playoffs, not the FCS charity bowl.

You want to play a DII and an FBS in the same year? Great. You know going in that you have to win your conference to make the playoffs.

Its not like the AD didn't know that was the deal when he made the schedule.

Also West Georgia was 2-9 this year, so its not like they are a good DII

Frankly, I'm surprised to see a GSU fan whine about not making the playoffs.

[RationalGriz]

I have no problem with Div-II wins not counting. Everyone knows the rule and they schedule accordingly. If GSU, Elon, Cal-Poly, and The Citadel have a problem with being left out because of a D-II win, then next year don't schedule one. I personally dislike that Montana even schedules a D-II school, and everyone is knocking them for it.

[SuperEagle]

You can't have your cake and eat it too - its the FCS playoffs, not the FCS charity bowl.

You want to play a DII and an FBS in the same year? Great. You know going in that you have to win your conference to make the playoffs.

Its not like the AD didn't know that was the deal when he made the schedule.

Also West Georgia was 2-9 this year, so its not like they are a good DII

Frankly, I'm surprised to see a GSU fan whine about not making the playoffs.
**
Your inferring something that's not accurate. In many of my posts on other threads I've stated that I don't think any 4 loss team deserves to be in. However, I thought we deserved it over UNH. But I would have left both out. And playing a DII still didn't hurt our strength of schedule that much. We still played a harder schedule than UNH by 18 spots.
But this is not about GSU. This is about us giving DII's a chance. We beat West Georgia to open the year. But if we would have played SSU and beaten them would we have really deserved the playoffs? I would argue that we shouldn't. Again, I think we need to treat DII's like the FBS treats us. Why should we treat them worse? How would you answer that?

[RationalGriz]

I think another problem with counting Div-II wins is that not all Div-II schools are created equal. Montana played a one win Fort Lewis, and plays Western St next year that won only 1 game this year. Should we count these just like game against Grand Valley St or Delta St. I think not, so why count any at all.

[kardplayer]

**
Your inferring something that's not accurate. In many of my posts on other threads I've stated that I don't think any 4 loss team deserves to be in. However, I thought we deserved it over UNH. But I would have left both out. And playing a DII still didn't hurt our strength of schedule that much. We still played a harder schedule than UNH by 18 spots.
But this is not about GSU. This is about us giving DII's a chance. We beat West Georgia to open the year. But if we would have played SSU and beaten them would we have really deserved the playoffs? I would argue that we shouldn't. Again, I think we need to treat DII's like the FBS treats us. Why should we treat them worse? How would you answer that?

I answer that like this: This is Division I football. You should only play Division I schools. Play FBS schools (where you'll likely lose) or DII schools (where your win won't count) at your own risk.

FBS shouldn't get to count wins against us towards "national championship" eligibility. Whether it counts towards bowl eligbility is irrelevant - there's a big difference between the Poulan Weedeater bowl and the playoffs.

[BestOfBreed]

I think another problem with counting Div-II wins is that not all Div-II schools are created equal. Montana played a one win Fort Lewis, and plays Western St next year that won only 1 game this year. Should we count these just like game against Grand Valley St or Delta St. I think not, so why count any at all.

The same can be said for D-I wins. You can't compare beating Davidson with beating Chattanooga. Heck, you can't even compare beating Davidson with beating VMI. The BCS requires a certain amount of equivalencies for the team to count towards bowl wins. Maybe they should change the rule that if a team doesn't offer at least 24 equivalencies it doesn't count towards playoff eligibility. Seems fair.

[RationalGriz]

The same can be said for D-I wins. You can't compare beating Davidson with beating Chattanooga. Heck, you can't even compare beating Davidson with beating VMI. The BCS requires a certain amount of equivalencies for the team to count towards bowl wins. Maybe they should change the rule that if a team doesn't offer at least 24 equivalencies it doesn't count towards playoff eligibility. Seems fair.

As long as a school is considered an FCS institution, there is no way around counting them. It is easy to say no Div-II, but I see no way without causing significant waves, could you place a rule saying, well yeah, you are a FCS school, but since you do not have 24 equivalent scholarships, you do not count. Also, I know that the Ivy league give scholarships, but they are not "athletic", so would they be deemed as less than 24? Too many problems with this logic. You are either FCS or not.

Also, I would expect the selection committee to look at a schedule and reward a team that plays a full scholarship FCS school to a school that plays, as from your example, Davidson.

[lucchesicourt]

I agree that one D2 win should count. Afterall, they sure count D2 losses, don't they? If you aren't going to count wins, then don't count losses.

[gophoenix]

Again, moral of the story is, fill up your schedule with the Pioneer, MAAC, Ivy or weak NEC teams. The win will be counted more than any D-II.

So, I know Morehead State has traveled to Elon in the past (and we were penalized for playing them when playoff time rolled around). So they are available. I found out that in 2009 we have Davidson.

But we have a choice of fighting over Davidson, Morehead State, Jacksonville and Campbell. Or we can schedule a weak SWAC or MEAC (wait, they play too many classics and may not be available).

Since non-scholarship teams are at a minimum in the South, West and Midwest and they don't travel well. That really means, if we want to pad out schedule with these teams then we will have to travel to them.

Whatever.

I love all the people touting the non-scholarship route this year. A few years ago, the fans from most of these same schools were criticizing scheduling and using a NS-school win.

So really, it's whatever fits their cause of the year.