La Salle officially drops football

[hebmskebm]

http://goexplorers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/111907aac.html

xsmhx

what are iona and marist going to do?

[furman94]

Wow... Were there any fans on AGS? I dont remember any.

[Seawolf97]

Now to see what happens to Iona and Marist. The PFL ?

[gophoenix]

Weren't Iona, Marist and Campbell voted into the Pioneer already?

[dgreco]

I think we knew this was coming. NSF seems to be the graveyard for these programs. It looks like the return is in schollies. I just hope Marist and Iona find homes. I really wonder if iona gets an invite to the NEC. Does the NEC want to go to 10 teams though?

[chattanoogamocs]

Always a sad day when a football program is dropped. xsmhx

[Seawolf97]

Im not sure Iona and Marist want spend dollars on developing scholarship programs.

[TheValleyRaider]

xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

Very sad whenever this kind of thing happens

I thought I heard that Iona already accepted an invite to the Pioneer, although that could just have been idle messageboard chatter. If it's true, then that really just leaves Marist in the indepedent wilderness.

Hopefully both of them can make something of the situation

[CSUBUCDAD]

Surely they looked at other conferences that were looking for new members???

[Maroons]

I know very little of the situation... but I would think that La Salle will regret this decision in the very near future and thereafter... until they lose all institutional memory of the football program.... which will be an even more sad day if it comes to pass.

[FCS Preview]

Now to see what happens to Iona and Marist. The PFL ?

Put them in the CAA. There are not enough teams in the CAA. :)

[Seawolf97]

Surely they looked at other conferences that were looking for new members???

Really limited choices in the Northeast-

CAA- No full scholarship and very tough.
IVY -No
NEC - Going to 30 scholarship limit -Maybe.
Patriot -?
PFL- alot of travel so added cost.
Thats about it .

[dgreco]

Really limited choices in the Northeast-

CAA- No full scholarship and very tough.
IVY -No
NEC - Going to 30 scholarship limit -Maybe.
Patriot -?
PFL- alot of travel so added cost.
Thats about it .

there really is no where for them to, I wonder what happens.

[GaelsFootball]

I'm getting the feeling Iona will be competing as an Independent next year. From what I've heard we've recieved a bid for the Pioneer but have yet to accept it. Going NEC is out of the question. I don't think going PFL is going to happen because of travel costs and other variables.
Unfortunetly even going 7-4 we still don't get support from the school. I give us 5 years before were gone. Scheduling as an Indy will be way too difficult. No good teams will ever come to our house.
At least we got UC Davis and Maine next year.

[aceinthehole]

I'm getting the feeling Iona will be competing as an Independent next year. From what I've heard we've recieved a bid for the Pioneer but have yet to accept it. Going NEC is out of the question. I don't think going PFL is going to happen because of travel costs and other variables.
Unfortunetly even going 7-4 we still don't get support from the school. I give us 5 years before were gone. Scheduling as an Indy will be way too difficult. No good teams will ever come to our house.
At least we got UC Davis and Maine next year.

Sorry to hear that. I kept telling Detroit Flyer and others that travel for the MAAC teams in the PFL would be way too much. If you can't afford limited schollys (NEC) or travel (PFL), then I agree the end is near.

I give LaSalle credit for making a decision in a timely manner. At least these kids can find other programs. St. Pete's was very poor in the handiling of their situation.

I wish Iona well, but I would guess that 2008 may be the last season. I don't see how you schedule beyond that.

[DFW HOYA]

The MAAC conference leadership is to blame as well. They stopped supporting football years ago and put in restrictive rules to protect the Sienas and Canisiuses of the league from folding. What it did was lead St. John's and Georgetown to get out, while putting Fairfield, St. Peter's, et al. in a death spiral. Any leadership from Ensor & Co. to stabilize the league could have preserved a bare bones, six team league, but the MAAC did nothing more than serve as a scheduling bureau.

A similar prognosis awaits them in basketball, I'm afraid, if things don't change. The AEC and NEC are passing them by, and the Patriot will eventually pass them as well.

[ccd494]

Canisiuses

Canisii?

[Franks Tanks]

Canisii?

http://www.canisius.edu/

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The MAAC conference leadership is to blame as well. They stopped supporting football years ago and put in restrictive rules to protect the Sienas and Canisiuses of the league from folding. What it did was lead St. John's and Georgetown to get out, while putting Fairfield, St. Peter's, et al. in a death spiral. Any leadership from Ensor & Co. to stabilize the league could have preserved a bare bones, six team league, but the MAAC did nothing more than serve as a scheduling bureau.

A similar prognosis awaits them in basketball, I'm afraid, if things don't change. The AEC and NEC are passing them by, and the Patriot will eventually pass them as well.

I'd argue that in basketball, the PL has already passed the MAAC, but your point is very well taken. I'm just sad that the school didn't see any other options available to them - either in the PFL, as an independent or even as a member of the Patriot League.

It sounds like a decision that was not made easily, but:


"However, the steady dissolution of the MAAC Football League and the changing landscape of collegiate football have negatively affected our program and led us to this decision. "

It's that last sentence that ought to be concerning the other (now former) MAAC schools - and the PFL, too.

[aceinthehole]

I'd argue that in basketball, the PL has already passed the MAAC, but your point is very well taken. I'm just sad that the school didn't see any other options available to them - either in the PFL, as an independent or even as a member of the Patriot League.

It sounds like a decision that was not made easily, but:



It's that last sentence that ought to be concerning the other (now former) MAAC schools - and the PFL, too.

There was no institutional support for ANY increase in funding. PFL, NEC, or PL (what are you smoking?) membership was never really on the table.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There was no institutional support for ANY increase in funding. PFL, NEC, or PL (what are you smoking?) membership was never really on the table.

The bottom line was, they were deep cost-containment and did not want to ask for more money or get creative. And don't underestimate the ability of the PL to add some strange bedfellows to their conference if it seriously increases their 1) men's basketball programs and 2) their TV market.

[Seawolf97]

I'm getting the feeling Iona will be competing as an Independent next year. From what I've heard we've recieved a bid for the Pioneer but have yet to accept it. Going NEC is out of the question. I don't think going PFL is going to happen because of travel costs and other variables.
Unfortunetly even going 7-4 we still don't get support from the school. I give us 5 years before were gone. Scheduling as an Indy will be way too difficult. No good teams will ever come to our house.
At least we got UC Davis and Maine next year.

Wish you and the Team well

[BlueHen86]

I'm getting the feeling Iona will be competing as an Independent next year. From what I've heard we've recieved a bid for the Pioneer but have yet to accept it. Going NEC is out of the question. I don't think going PFL is going to happen because of travel costs and other variables.
Unfortunetly even going 7-4 we still don't get support from the school. I give us 5 years before were gone. Scheduling as an Indy will be way too difficult. No good teams will ever come to our house.
At least we got UC Davis and Maine next year.
Good luck. I hope you guys manage to maintain a football program indefinitely.

[DetroitFlyer]

Short sighted thinking.... Adding the additional travel requirements for PFL play is still the least expensive, and in my opinion the only viable option on the table for Marist and Iona. Playing "cost containment" football as an independent is a good way for the administration to ensure failure and then to have a convenient excuse to kill the program. The only way this would make any sense is to have a plan to do something different in the next year or two.... Move to a scholarship conference, join the PL, or revisit joining the PFL.... Marist and Iona would both be excellent additions to the PFL. Joining the league would increase their ability to recruit immensely. The PFL lands kids all the time that are drawn by the opportunity to travel around the country each and every season.

I sure hope that things work out for Iona and Marist....

And, I am not even a little bit worried about the long term viability of the PFL. For every La Salle, there is a Campbell. There is enough interest to keep one, strong, viable, non-scholarship league in FCS for years to come.

[DFW HOYA]

And don't underestimate the ability of the PL to add some strange bedfellows to their conference if it seriously increases their 1) men's basketball programs and 2) their TV market.

You're more optimistic than I am, I guess. The PL leadership moves glacially in a fast moving college environment and remains very careful not to upset its neighbors in the Ivy-covered mansion down the block.

Meanwhile, the NEC and Big South go on building.

[PeacockRaider]

[QUOTE=aceinthehole;752553]
I give LaSalle credit for making a decision in a timely manner. At least these kids can find other programs. St. Pete's was very poor in the handiling of their situation.

I totally agree that Saint Peter's handled the situation very poorly, which is why they are getting sued by some right now. However, I don't think LaSalle handled it much better. From what I've heard they knew last year that this was going to be it and went out and recruited kids in a lame duck year. The only difference between SPC and LaSalle is the admin @ LaSalle let them play a lame duck season. Both equally ****ty moves. Best of Luck to Iona, I've secretly been rooting for them to do well, I hope they go to the Pioneer

[danefan]

What about Iona going to the NEC or America East for all sports?

Seems they'd fit better in the NEC (small private schools, etc..). Lets face it, the MAAC is a dying league all together (basketball included).

[aceinthehole]

Short sighted thinking.... Adding the additional travel requirements for PFL play is still the least expensive, and in my opinion the only viable option on the table for Marist and Iona. Playing "cost containment" football as an independent is a good way for the administration to ensure failure and then to have a convenient excuse to kill the program. The only way this would make any sense is to have a plan to do something different in the next year or two.... Move to a scholarship conference, join the PL, or revisit joining the PFL.... Marist and Iona would both be excellent additions to the PFL. Joining the league would increase their ability to recruit immensely. The PFL lands kids all the time that are drawn by the opportunity to travel around the country each and every season.

I sure hope that things work out for Iona and Marist....

And, I am not even a little bit worried about the long term viability of the PFL. For every La Salle, there is a Campbell. There is enough interest to keep one, strong, viable, non-scholarship league in FCS for years to come.


DF - you're outta your league here figuratively and literally.

Air travel for a team that does not get a guarantee is very, very expensive. There is a reason that MAAC teams rarely if ever head out on a plane for travel. They can't and don't want to pay for it. Now, Iona and/or Marist to the PFL is even less likely. If they could get a 12-taem league with 6 "local" travel teams, it may have been possible. But they are not getting on a plane for 4 games per year. Just ain't going to happen.

And the recruiting thing is not accurate - the PFL will not help Iona at all! The former MAAC schools were using football as a way to boost male enrollment. They were getting 60+ tutition paying students. Even if they gave some need-based aid, or academic aid, they were likely making a PROFIT on football. There is NO WAY these Northeast, urban schools are going to subsidize any costs for football.

DFW hit it pretty clear too. The MAAC schools at one time had the same philoshiphy - lets play foottball on the cheap (practically like club football). When St. John's and G-town and now Dusquense wanted to play at a higher level, the others balked. Once it became too expensive the other (Fairfield, Canisius, Siena, St. Pete's) just dropped the program. There was no support from the schools collectively and no leadership from the conference.

I'm feel bad for the program at Iona, but its clear they are going to try to stick it out with 2 "paydays" a year (I guess next year is Cal Poly and Maine) to subsidise the program. Once they can't get local teams for travel, can't get any home games, and it then becomes too "expensive" and they will fold the program.

This is not the midwest. Football is not a priority at these small, urban (northeast region) private schools. We may all want to hope or think differently, but this is the reality.

[89Hen]

Always a sad day when a football program is dropped. xsmhx


xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

Very sad whenever this kind of thing happens
I would agree, but there really was no interest. I do feel bad for any kids who are already IN the program. xpeacex

[andy7171]

What about Iona going to the NEC or America East for all sports?

Seems they'd fit better in the NEC (small private schools, etc..). Lets face it, the MAAC is a dying league all together (basketball included).

I don't think the MAAC is a bad basketall conference. xeyebrowx

[89Hen]

I would agree, but there really was no interest. I do feel bad for any kids who are already IN the program. xpeacex

"Saint Francis Rolls Past Explorers, 51-10" - Attendance: 750

[DevilDawg]

I'm certain the CSFL would be interested in having La Salle start up a sprint football program. With Penn in the same city it wouldn't be difficult for them to learn from that longstanding program and keep travel expenses down.

Mansfield a division II school in PA who dropped their football program recently will be fielding a sprint football program next fall as their one and only football program. Every other school in the CSFL has two football programs.

For those of you like me who haven't heard much about sprint football before I started coaching here, these links will be useful.

http://video.google.com/url?docid=-5562128736448698046&esrc=sr2&ev=v&len=302&q=sprint%2Bfootball&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~sprintfb% 2FFootballCompressed.wmv&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-5562128736448698046%26q%3Dsprint%2Bfootball%26tota l%3D89%26start%3D0%26num%3D10%26so%3D0%26type%3Dse arch%26plindex%3D1&usg=AL29H20fGa2dZU8xbpdW9Mqd4OFDpOQZ2w
http://www.sprintfootball.com

[DetroitFlyer]

DF - you're outta your league here figuratively and literally.

Air travel for a team that does not get a guarantee is very, very expensive. There is a reason that MAAC teams rarely if ever head out on a plane for travel. They can't and don't want to pay for it. Now, Iona and/or Marist to the PFL is even less likely. If they could get a 12-taem league with 6 "local" travel teams, it may have been possible. But they are not getting on a plane for 4 games per year. Just ain't going to happen.

And the recruiting thing is not accurate - the PFL will not help Iona at all! The former MAAC schools were using football as a way to boost male enrollment. They were getting 60+ tutition paying students. Even if they gave some need-based aid, or academic aid, they were likely making a PROFIT on football. There is NO WAY these Northeast, urban schools are going to subsidize any costs for football.

DFW hit it pretty clear too. The MAAC schools at one time had the same philoshiphy - lets play foottball on the cheap (practically like club football). When St. John's and G-town and now Dusquense wanted to play at a higher level, the others balked. Once it became too expensive the other (Fairfield, Canisius, Siena, St. Pete's) just dropped the program. There was no support from the schools collectively and no leadership from the conference.

I'm feel bad for the program at Iona, but its clear they are going to try to stick it out with 2 "paydays" a year (I guess next year is Cal Poly and Maine) to subsidise the program. Once they can't get local teams for travel, can't get any home games, and it then becomes too "expensive" and they will fold the program.

This is not the midwest. Football is not a priority at these small, urban (northeast region) private schools. We may all want to hope or think differently, but this is the reality.

Let's look at some actual data shall we? I know, that is a radical idea....xlolx

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

1. San Diego: $1,155,755
2. Dayton: $825,443
3. Jacksonville: $700,831
4. Morehead State: $637,887
5. Davidson: $580,902
6. Drake: $554,791
7. Valparaiso: $504,103
8. Marist: $456,575
9. Butler: $438,737
10. Iona: $355,172
11. La Salle: $328,490

These are the numbers reported on the Equity in Athletics website for the latest reporting period. The numbers represent expenses for football. As you can see, the current MAAC teams are currently at the low end of PFL spending, but they are not light years away.... Maybe they have to double spending to play in the PFL in order to cover the additional travel costs. That is still the most cost effective way to continue playing FCS football, bar none!

As for recruiting, you are simply incorrect in that being in a national, stable, Division I, football conference, with post season opportunities is an absolute draw for student / athletes. The PFL routinely "out-recruits" the Ivy League, the Patriot League, and virtually every other FCS conference from time to time! We also gain FBS transfers, and often times land kids that have FBS offers, especially "preferred walk on offers". This does not happen by chance.... These kids see advantages to playing in the PFL that they do not see in other leagues, for a wide variety of reasons. The same would hold true for Marist and Iona!

[Franks Tanks]

I'm certain the CSFL would be interested in having La Salle start up a sprint football program. With Penn in the same city it wouldn't be difficult for them to learn from that longstanding program and keep travel expenses down.

Mansfield a division II school in PA who dropped their football program recently will be fielding a sprint football program next fall as their one and only football program. Every other school in the CSFL has two football programs.

For those of you like me who haven't heard much about sprint football before I started coaching here, these links will be useful.

http://video.google.com/url?docid=-5562128736448698046&esrc=sr2&ev=v&len=302&q=sprint%2Bfootball&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~sprintfb% 2FFootballCompressed.wmv&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-5562128736448698046%26q%3Dsprint%2Bfootball%26tota l%3D89%26start%3D0%26num%3D10%26so%3D0%26type%3Dse arch%26plindex%3D1&usg=AL29H20fGa2dZU8xbpdW9Mqd4OFDpOQZ2w
http://www.sprintfootball.com

Do the Army and NAvy sprint football teams still play at Blue Mountain High school in PA. What a strange animal sprint football is--played only by eastern elite schools. Last time I checked Army, Navy, Penn, Cornell, and Princeton were the only schools to play the sport--has it changes at all?

[danefan]

I don't think the MAAC is a bad basketall conference. xeyebrowx

Not bad, but declining. In the past years the NEC and AEC have continued to creap on the MAAC while the MAAC is stagnant.

[UAalum72]

Do the Army and NAvy sprint football teams still play at Blue Mountain High school in PA. What a strange animal sprint football is--played only by eastern elite schools. Last time I checked Army, Navy, Penn, Cornell, and Princeton were the only schools to play the sport--has it changes at all?
Weight limit is up to 172 pounds (from the original 150) and they also check body fat and other things to prevent players starving themselves to make weight.

[dgreco]

not to get totally off topic, but I looked up bryant, and I saw they are at around 876,671 for football. Now I want to look at the NEC and see if Iona or Marist could fit this mold, and how Duquesne looks.

Central Connecticut - 1,266,685
Wagner - 1,198,243 (same question as SHU?)
Albany - 1,148,826
Sacred Heart - 994,970 (high because it is private? higher tuition?)
Monmouth - 880,823
Bryant - 876,671 (before any scholarships)
St. Francis - 867,629
RMU - 825,718
Duquesne - 480,273 (i am sure they will go up with scholarships)

It looks hard for iona to really fit anywhere with little spent and not wanting to spend more. I doubt Marist would come back to the NEC also.

[aceinthehole]

Let's look at some actual data shall we? I know, that is a radical idea....xlolx

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

1. San Diego: $1,155,755
2. Dayton: $825,443
3. Jacksonville: $700,831
4. Morehead State: $637,887
5. Davidson: $580,902
6. Drake: $554,791
7. Valparaiso: $504,103
8. Marist: $456,575
9. Butler: $438,737
10. Iona: $355,172
11. La Salle: $328,490

These are the numbers reported on the Equity in Athletics website for the latest reporting period. The numbers represent expenses for football. As you can see, the current MAAC teams are currently at the low end of PFL spending, but they are not light years away.... Maybe they have to double spending to play in the PFL in order to cover the additional travel costs. That is still the most cost effective way to continue playing FCS football, bar none!

As for recruiting, you are simply incorrect in that being in a national, stable, Division I, football conference, with post season opportunities is an absolute draw for student / athletes. The PFL routinely "out-recruits" the Ivy League, the Patriot League, and virtually every other FCS conference from time to time! We also gain FBS transfers, and often times land kids that have FBS offers, especially "preferred walk on offers". This does not happen by chance.... These kids see advantages to playing in the PFL that they do not see in other leagues, for a wide variety of reasons. The same would hold true for Marist and Iona!

Dude, you don't get it. DOUBLE sopending?!?!?!? Clearly you live in Candy Land and go on vacations with your Monolpoly money. Budgets aren't just numbers, they are an organizzation's statement of priorities. Your priority may be non-scholly football, but it is not a prioritay at LaSalle.

A decision to increase spending by 100% to "save" FCS football at LaSalle is not something to be done lightly. Clearly you have no idea how insitutions budget or make strategic policy decisions. This was NEVER an option for them. The press release was a polite way to say, we give up and rather invest the money on our basketball program which is last in the A-10. They will get more bang for the buck in other sports, period the end. Please read between the lines.

Second, what works for the PFL will not necessarlly work for small, urban, East Coast Catholic schools. You model is fine for Dayton, but its not realistic in Philly or New Rochelle. LaSalle and Iona are fine schools, but let's not pretend they are recruiting STUDENTS against PL and PFL schools with or without football. The academics are very different.

DF - Give up! The PFL model is great and its working for you and others, but do not sell it as the savior for any FCS program - its not. Just becasue Iona and Lasalle are not joing the PFL doesn't mean your conference isn't stable.

[DevilDawg]

Do the Army and NAvy sprint football teams still play at Blue Mountain High school in PA. What a strange animal sprint football is--played only by eastern elite schools. Last time I checked Army, Navy, Penn, Cornell, and Princeton were the only schools to play the sport--has it changes at all?

This year we played Army in the Allegience Bowl in Saratoga, NY. The Allegience Bowl raises funds to support Saratoga Pop Warner Football and an organization that supports deployed service members.

Mansfield will be fielding a team next season. Over it's history 15 or 16 schools have been in the league. I know Michigan had a team at one point and from the wikipedia entry, I can see that Rutgers, Yale and Villanova have won the league title in the past and are no longer in the league.

[Seahawks Fan]

.... Going NEC is out of the question......


Why? xconfusedx

[aceinthehole]

Why? xconfusedx

$$$$

Becasue Iona's football budget is at less than HALF of the smallest budget in the NEC. They are not doubling their budget for football.

[dgreco]

$$$$

Becasue Iona's football budget is at less than HALF of the smallest budget in the NEC. They are not doubling their budget for football.

I dont see the conference wanting to go to 10 teams and 3 of them being affiliates. That would upset the conference members a little bit I suppose.

[Marcus Garvey]

Well, this is certainly the least surprising FCS story of 2007. I've been predicting this for 2 years now.

LaSalle's administration was either unwilling or unable to support the program any longer, and it was glaringly obvious. I do believe that had the status quo of 1997 been maintained, they'd still be playing. But it's obvious for these small private Div. I schools, that fielding football doesn't buy them anything. St. John's, Canisius, Sienna and LaSalle have long been thought of as basketball schools. While having a football team is nice, it does nothing for their bottom line. They all have much more in common with small liberal arts colleges (except St. John's, which is very large) than most FCS schools.

For those of you have neither attended a small liberal arts college or a football game at one, then you might not be aware that the student body doesn't get "wrapped" up over football. Sure, if the team is winning, they'll be a good number of students at the game. But it isn't an "identity" to them. It's just not the same as at Lehigh or Lafayette or Delaware. There are exceptions, but not many.

While I feel badly for the players of the LaSalle team, I agree with the decision to drop the team. Hopefully, those players who wish to continue playing football will have ample time to transfer.

What's the over/under on Marist and Iona dropping now?

[Franks Tanks]

Let's look at some actual data shall we? I know, that is a radical idea....xlolx

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

1. San Diego: $1,155,755
2. Dayton: $825,443
3. Jacksonville: $700,831
4. Morehead State: $637,887
5. Davidson: $580,902
6. Drake: $554,791
7. Valparaiso: $504,103
8. Marist: $456,575
9. Butler: $438,737
10. Iona: $355,172
11. La Salle: $328,490

These are the numbers reported on the Equity in Athletics website for the latest reporting period. The numbers represent expenses for football. As you can see, the current MAAC teams are currently at the low end of PFL spending, but they are not light years away.... Maybe they have to double spending to play in the PFL in order to cover the additional travel costs. That is still the most cost effective way to continue playing FCS football, bar none!

As for recruiting, you are simply incorrect in that being in a national, stable, Division I, football conference, with post season opportunities is an absolute draw for student / athletes. The PFL routinely "out-recruits" the Ivy League, the Patriot League, and virtually every other FCS conference from time to time! We also gain FBS transfers, and often times land kids that have FBS offers, especially "preferred walk on offers". This does not happen by chance.... These kids see advantages to playing in the PFL that they do not see in other leagues, for a wide variety of reasons. The same would hold true for Marist and Iona!


I think its funny that you think the PFL out recruits the PL and IVY. If we are recruiting the same kid we win almost every time. The difference is that you can get more kids into school than we can, perhaps you pick up some guys we wanted but couldnt get past admissions, which is happening more and more often.

[aceinthehole]

Well, this is certainly the least surprising FCS story of 2007. I've been predicting this for 2 years now.

LaSalle's administration was either unwilling or unable to support the program any longer, and it was glaringly obvious. I do believe that had the status quo of 1997 been maintained, they'd still be playing. But it's obvious for these small private Div. I schools, that fielding football doesn't buy them anything. St. John's, Canisius, Sienna and LaSalle have long been thought of as basketball schools. While having a football team is nice, it does nothing for their bottom line. They all have much more in common with small liberal arts colleges (except St. John's, which is very large) than most FCS schools.

For those of you have neither attended a small liberal arts college or a football game at one, then you might not be aware that the student body doesn't get "wrapped" up over football. Sure, if the team is winning, they'll be a good number of students at the game. But it isn't an "identity" to them. It's just not the same as at Lehigh or Lafayette or Delaware. There are exceptions, but not many.

While I feel badly for the players of the LaSalle team, I agree with the decision to drop the team. Hopefully, those players who wish to continue playing football will have ample time to transfer.

What's the over/under on Marist and Iona dropping now?

I give Iona 2 seasons at the most. I expect them to play out the 2008 season, and possible the '09 season, but I doubt they get any further. Who knows, the end could come this year, but I doubt it (and hope not).

I hold out some hope for Marist, becasue they have invested and budgeted more for football than the other MAAC programs that have folded. I think they have 3 choices - 1) make a modest increase in their commitment to football and follow the Dukes and join the NEC, 2) make a signifigant increase in their commitment to football and follow AI system of the PL (if the PL will accept the Red Foxes), or 3) fold up their tents and go home.

I also think Marist also has about 2 seasons to figure this out.

[DetroitFlyer]

I think its funny that you think the PFL out recruits the PL and IVY. If we are recruiting the same kid we win almost every time. The difference is that you can get more kids into school than we can, perhaps you pick up some guys we wanted but couldnt get past admissions, which is happening more and more often.

I did not say we win every recruit, but we do win against both leagues from time to time. In this year's freshman class, we landed a kid from Ohio, 4.0 GPA with good ACT scores. He was recruited by several Ivy Schools but chose Dayton in order to play closer to home. My guess is that Dayton's aid package was close enough to the Ivy package to make the decision easier.

In a second case, another kid was recruited by a well known, Catholic school in the PL. He is from way out of state for the PL school and for Dayton. He ended up picking Dayton. I gathered that the aid package at the PL school turned out to be not all it was cracked up to be....

I'm sure we also pick up kids that get zapped by the PL & Ivy admission process.

I have personally spoken with a large number of parents and a few players to gain insight on who recruited them and why they chose Dayton. The stories are as varied as the student/athletes, but the lion's share of kids turned down offers at other FCS schools, ( many were not full ride offers by the way ), and full rides at Division II and NAIA schools. It is also very interesting to me how many Dayton players had "preferred walk-on" offers at FBS schools.

[LUHawker]

I did not say we win every recruit, but we do win against both leagues from time to time. In this year's freshman class, we landed a kid from Ohio, 4.0 GPA with good ACT scores. He was recruited by several Ivy Schools but chose Dayton in order to play closer to home. My guess is that Dayton's aid package was close enough to the Ivy package to make the decision easier.

In a second case, another kid was recruited by a well known, Catholic school in the PL. He is from way out of state for the PL school and for Dayton. He ended up picking Dayton. I gathered that the aid package at the PL school turned out to be not all it was cracked up to be....

I'm sure we also pick up kids that get zapped by the PL & Ivy admission process.

I have personally spoken with a large number of parents and a few players to gain insight on who recruited them and why they chose Dayton. The stories are as varied as the student/athletes, but the lion's share of kids turned down offers at other FCS schools, ( many were not full ride offers by the way ), and full rides at Division II and NAIA schools. It is also very interesting to me how many Dayton players had "preferred walk-on" offers at FBS schools.

So you're telling us that of the 120-150 recruits in the Patriot League and the 150-180 recruits in the Ivy League, Dayton was able to "win" two players? One of whom, wanted to stay close to home; I'd hardly call that winning a recruit. The second one, you surmise, was for money. That could be legitimate, but I think you're stretching the definition of "winning" against the PL and Ivy.

[GannonFan]

Sad day for La Salle, but only a blind man couldn't see this coming. La Salle's in a tough neighborhood, they couldn't afford to even send their basketball coach (you know, the sport they consider their flagship) on multiple recruiting trips, and there was zero interest in the football program. It's a shame really, because of the NCAA Dayton Rule that schools like La Salle and St. John's and all the other ones just can't field DIII football teams and enjoy having football. La Salle was trying to do that as their schedule now is dotted with DIII schools galore. But they aren't schools that La Salle normally associates with and the interest was minimal at best. Another poster said it best - while non-schoolly FCS football certainly works well in other parts of the country and in other circumstances, it doesn't work on the East Coast, especially the urban East Coast areas.

[Dane96]

I did not say we win every recruit, but we do win against both leagues from time to time. In this year's freshman class, we landed a kid from Ohio, 4.0 GPA with good ACT scores. He was recruited by several Ivy Schools but chose Dayton in order to play closer to home. My guess is that Dayton's aid package was close enough to the Ivy package to make the decision easier.

In a second case, another kid was recruited by a well known, Catholic school in the PL. He is from way out of state for the PL school and for Dayton. He ended up picking Dayton. I gathered that the aid package at the PL school turned out to be not all it was cracked up to be....

I'm sure we also pick up kids that get zapped by the PL & Ivy admission process.

I have personally spoken with a large number of parents and a few players to gain insight on who recruited them and why they chose Dayton. The stories are as varied as the student/athletes, but the lion's share of kids turned down offers at other FCS schools, ( many were not full ride offers by the way ), and full rides at Division II and NAIA schools. It is also very interesting to me how many Dayton players had "preferred walk-on" offers at FBS schools.

Simple question:

Does Dayton recruit nationally like the Ivy's and PL. Answer-- NO. I looked at the roster....and out of the 40 some odd kids that are from out of state (BTW, the ROSTER IS THE LARGEST I HAVE EVER LAID EYES ON) they are primarily from Michigan, Illinois, and Western PA....which makes perfect sense. There are one or two tossed in from Kentucky, CT, UT, CO, and IA.

Dayton is not winning recruiting wars against the PL and IVY who recruit more NATIONALLY in scope.

[DetroitFlyer]

So you're telling us that of the 120-150 recruits in the Patriot League and the 150-180 recruits in the Ivy League, Dayton was able to "win" two players? One of whom, wanted to stay close to home; I'd hardly call that winning a recruit. The second one, you surmise, was for money. That could be legitimate, but I think you're stretching the definition of "winning" against the PL and Ivy.

I mentioned two examples at Dayton. There are similar stories across the PFL, at all schools. Yeah, I understand that you just cannot believe that a kid would pick one of our schools over those elite schools in the East....:p Oh, and by the way, our champion defeated your champion on the field this year as well!xlolx

[UAalum72]

I'm not sure the Dayton Rule really has any affect here; most of these schools wouldn't have been winners at Division III, and their spending couldn't have been much less either. I think the MAAC only allowed one paid assistant coach. For sure their attendance wouldn't have been higher at D-III.

[DFW HOYA]

It's a shame really, because of the NCAA Dayton Rule that schools like La Salle and St. John's and all the other ones just can't field DIII football teams and enjoy having football. La Salle was trying to do that as their schedule now is dotted with DIII schools galore.

These schools don't want Div. III football either, it's just politically expedient to have one less sport to be responsible for. If it's not football, it'll be wrestling or track or tennis. Look at the numerous I-A schools which now get by with only six men's sports--it's less to be responsible for to their bosses.

Experience shows, however, that schools that cut football and claim that the money will be reinvested into a marquee sport never see it happen. Whatever happened to all that money at Boston U--has it made the Terriers a national power in hoops? No, it buys a couple of department staff positions and the rest of the money goes away, never to return.

[GannonFan]

I'm not sure the Dayton Rule really has any affect here; most of these schools wouldn't have been winners at Division III, and their spending couldn't have been much less either. I think the MAAC only allowed one paid assistant coach. For sure their attendance wouldn't have been higher at D-III.

It doesn't matter that they are winners - what matters is having peer schools that you normally associate with anyway to play. La Salle, despite all their negatives, would probably still have a football team today if the St. John's and Fairfield's of the world still had football teams. There are plenty of places that have football teams at the DIII level who have no chance of ever being successful against the Mount Union's of the world - it's not just about winning - it's not even mostly about winning.

[Marcus Garvey]

It doesn't matter that they are winners - what matters is having peer schools that you normally associate with anyway to play. La Salle, despite all their negatives, would probably still have a football team today if the St. John's and Fairfield's of the world still had football teams. There are plenty of places that have football teams at the DIII level who have no chance of ever being successful against the Mount Union's of the world - it's not just about winning - it's not even mostly about winning.

You're right. It's about being competitive. Schools like Mt. Union, St. John's (MN) and Augustanna (remember them in the 80's?) are DIII "football factories." The overwhelming majority of colleges just wish to field a competitive team year in and year out. If you look at records, that's what happens among them. It goes in cycles for most teams An excellent year or two, winning, then mediocrity, followed by a couple of really bad years. and repeat....
There are few "historically awful" DIII programs on the scale of a Duke, N'Western or Vandy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

These schools don't want Div. III football either, it's just politically expedient to have one less sport to be responsible for. If it's not football, it'll be wrestling or track or tennis. Look at the numerous I-A schools which now get by with only six men's sports--it's less to be responsible for to their bosses.

Experience shows, however, that schools that cut football and claim that the money will be reinvested into a marquee sport never see it happen. Whatever happened to all that money at Boston U--has it made the Terriers a national power in hoops? No, it buys a couple of department staff positions and the rest of the money goes away, never to return.

Which irritates me to no end - the excuse for most schools as to why they dropped the program is that it "lost money". Bulliisht. Nearly all sports programs "lose money", but maybe you're willing to spend it to please students, fans, and alumni. Just be honest about it: you don't want to spend more than $1 million on your football program.

BU is a great example: of course taking that $1 million per year or so didn't mean squat to their other sports. They partially paid for a boondoggle of a hockey arena with that money (ironically, named after a football star at BU that played for the Boston Red Sox) and the rest got divvied up with the other sports programs. So women's rowing gets one more assistant.

BU was the cause of this fallacious argument that somehow football is SUPPOSED to be a moneymaking sport. That descision had collateral damage that continues to this day, IMO.

[bluehenbillk]

A cricket just chirped in the woods...did anyone hear it? LaSalle Football R.I.P.

[GreatAppSt]

http://goexplorers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/111907aac.html

xsmhx

what are iona and marist going to do?

Continue playing CAA teams and be counted as a D I win.xrolleyesx xsmhx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Dawg2Rhody]

My question is how does this affect a student athletes elgibility? Can they go on to another program without having the 1 year sit down?

[Marcus Garvey]

Which irritates me to no end - the excuse for most schools as to why they dropped the program is that it "lost money". Bulliisht. Nearly all sports programs "lose money", but maybe you're willing to spend it to please students, fans, and alumni. Just be honest about it: you don't want to spend more than $1 million on your football program.
BU is a great example: of course taking that $1 million per year or so didn't mean squat to their other sports. They partially paid for a boondoggle of a hockey arena with that money (ironically, named after a football star at BU that played for the Boston Red Sox) and the rest got divvied up with the other sports programs. So women's rowing gets one more assistant.

BU was the cause of this fallacious argument that somehow football is SUPPOSED to be a moneymaking sport. That descision had collateral damage that continues to this day, IMO.

I don't think anybody is saying that LaSalle "lost" money. Rather that they can't continue to pay for it, especially if it does nothing to help them in terms of goodwill and other intangibles. Nobody in the adminstration is behaving like Craig Silber.

[DetroitFlyer]

Simple question:

Does Dayton recruit nationally like the Ivy's and PL. Answer-- NO. I looked at the roster....and out of the 40 some odd kids that are from out of state (BTW, the ROSTER IS THE LARGEST I HAVE EVER LAID EYES ON) they are primarily from Michigan, Illinois, and Western PA....which makes perfect sense. There are one or two tossed in from Kentucky, CT, UT, CO, and IA.

Dayton is not winning recruiting wars against the PL and IVY who recruit more NATIONALLY in scope.


Where does Dayton recruit?

Take a look:

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recruitpage.html

Looks pretty darn national to me.... Perhaps a wider net than almost any PL school! We do not beat those PL and NEC teams by only recruiting in Dayton, Ohio baby!!xthumbsupx

[Marcus Garvey]

My question is how does this affect a student athletes elgibility? Can they go on to another program without having the 1 year sit down?

Absolutely. You're free to transfer wherever. The 1 year sit out is meant to discourage students from jumping from team to team like a free agent. A school's decision to discontinue a sport is not the same thing, so they can play immediately at any NCAA school at any level.

The same thing goes if the team gets the Death Penalty like SMU in '87.

[Franks Tanks]

Where does Dayton recruit?

Take a look:

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recruitpage.html

Looks pretty darn national to me.... Perhaps a wider net than almost any PL school! We do not beat those PL and NEC teams by only recruiting in Dayton, Ohio baby!!xthumbsupx

Just becuase a coach has a state assigned to him doesnt mean he actively recruits there. For example a kid may call Dayton as he thinks he may be a good fit and is intersed. Perhaps the kid lives in Texas, he will then get assigned to Texas area recruiting coach, who will determine if the kid is worth pursuing. It not like that coach is going to every high school in Texas actively recruiting kids.

[Dane96]

Where does Dayton recruit?

Take a look:

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recruitpage.html

Looks pretty darn national to me.... Perhaps a wider net than almost any PL school! We do not beat those PL and NEC teams by only recruiting in Dayton, Ohio baby!!xthumbsupx

OY! RE-READ MY POST...I ALREADY LOOKED AT YOUR ROSTER.

40 out of staters from a 100+ Player roster....mostly within the Western PA, ILL and Michigan area which makes sense for an OHIO school.

Ivy's and PL's, on the other hand...RECRUIT NATIONALLY. You have a smattering of kids from KY, IN, UT, MD, IA, and CT areas....SMATTERING.

xnonox

[Dane96]

Just becuase a coach has a state assigned to him doesnt mean he actively recruits there. For example a kid may call Dayton as he thinks he may be a good fit and is intersed. Perhaps the kid lives in Texas, he will then get assigned to Texas area recruiting coach, who will determine if the kid is worth pursuing. It not like that coach is going to every high school in Texas actively recruiting kids.

Frank...don't waste your time. Detroit Flyer CLEARLY didnt read my ENTIRE post before responding.

I knew exactly what I was saying before I ASKED THE QUESTION. I was waiting for the ill-informed response he gave me.

[DFW HOYA]

Where does Dayton recruit?
Looks pretty darn national to me.... Perhaps a wider net than almost any PL school! We do not beat those PL and NEC teams by only recruiting in Dayton, Ohio baby!!xthumbsupx

Per the 2007 roster, 83 players come from either Ohio (66) or Illinois (17). Dayton may recruit nationally but it still signs regionally, which most good teams do anyway.

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dayt-m-footbl-mtt.html

[aceinthehole]

It doesn't matter that they are winners - what matters is having peer schools that you normally associate with anyway to play. La Salle, despite all their negatives, would probably still have a football team today if the St. John's and Fairfield's of the world still had football teams. There are plenty of places that have football teams at the DIII level who have no chance of ever being successful against the Mount Union's of the world - it's not just about winning - it's not even mostly about winning.

I agree with this statement. The MAAC was fine until some schools were unhappy with the status quo. Once the conference lost its "mission" - to provided low budget, non-scholly I-AA football for small Catholic "peers" on the East Coast - this ***** hit the fan.

It began with Georgetown increasing its commitment ..... and the rest is history. xsmiley_wix

Football is also about rivalries. That's another reason why the PFL won't work for Iona and Marist. Schools want to play their "peers" as much as possible.

[danefan]

Continue playing CAA teams and be counted as a D I win.xrolleyesx xsmhx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Surprisingly enough, the CAA's tiebreaker rules do not count wins against MAAC and PFL teams as equal to wins against DI schools. Its a point system and while wins against DI schools count as one point. Wins against MAAC and PFL teams only count as .5 point.

DaytonFlyer will love this....but the rules were updated this year to distinquish the NEC and Stony Brook who now count as a full point, from the MAAC and PFL.

[GaelsFootball]

Why? xconfusedx

Going scholorship will take away tution money from the school. I don't know about Marist but I just can't see Iona giving 40 scholly's out or whatever it is for football. Tutition is around 36,000 now so do the math on how much tutition money the school will lose. The only aid we give out is academic aid. Trust me, I would love to see us go to the NEC. We have proven we can play in the NEC by going 3-0 against teams this year. Were talking about a program who doesn't even have stands in the stadium and now there going to give out schollys??!

[aceinthehole]

Surprisingly enough, the CAA's tiebreaker rules do not count wins against MAAC and PFL teams as equal to wins against DI schools. Its a point system and while wins against DI schools count as one point. Wins against MAAC and PFL teams only count as .5 point.

DaytonFlyer will love this....but the rules were updated this year to distinquish the NEC and Stony Brook who now count as a full point, from the MAAC and PFL.

I did not know that! Wow, the NEC has gotten some formal respect from our CAA brothers!

That fact can only help NEC teams schedule CAA foes!

[DetroitFlyer]

Yep, ignore the FACTS and keep your collective heads in the sand.... I'm pretty sure that we listed states on the recruiting portion of our web site to make ourselves feel better. You know, just in case a kid's grandma from California calls up and begs to send her player to Dayton.... Get a life!xlolx You guys have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, in fact, less than no idea if that is possible! The fact is that Dayton recruits on a national level. Like most teams, the majority of the players are from states relatively close to the school, duh.... For some odd reason, parents seem to like to see their kids play once in a while.... Still, we landed kids from Florida, Connecticut, Missouri, Utah, Iowa, Wisconsin. Man, I sure am glad their grandmas called one of our coaches and brought them to our attention. TRY AGAIN!!!!!xnodx

[DetroitFlyer]

Surprisingly enough, the CAA's tiebreaker rules do not count wins against MAAC and PFL teams as equal to wins against DI schools. Its a point system and while wins against DI schools count as one point. Wins against MAAC and PFL teams only count as .5 point.

DaytonFlyer will love this....but the rules were updated this year to distinquish the NEC and Stony Brook who now count as a full point, from the MAAC and PFL.

Well this is a surprise, the CAA has set up a system that awards teams for playing and defeating the weakest conference in FCS, ( now that the MAAC is gone ). Yep, that is sure hard to figure out! I'll summarize it for you, the CAA is afraid of losing to Dayton, San Diego, Drake, Morehead State, etc., so they set up a system to make sure they can bag easy wins against the weak NEC.

[Franks Tanks]

Yep, ignore the FACTS and keep your collective heads in the sand.... I'm pretty sure that we listed states on the recruiting portion of our web site to make ourselves feel better. You know, just in case a kid's grandma from California calls up and begs to send her player to Dayton.... Get a life!xlolx You guys have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, in fact, less than no idea if that is possible! The fact is that Dayton recruits on a national level. Like most teams, the majority of the players are from states relatively close to the school, duh.... For some odd reason, parents seem to like to see their kids play once in a while.... Still, we landed kids from Florida, Connecticut, Missouri, Utah, Iowa, Wisconsin. Man, I sure am glad their grandmas called one of our coaches and brought them to our attention. TRY AGAIN!!!!!xnodx


Dayton obviously attracts students from far away because it is a good school and has a lot to offer. But you do not recruit nationally. You recruit regionally with a few kids from other places thrown in. I think you dont really have an understand on how a college football programs operates. If you think the Dayton O-line coach for example is on the road going to see every potential recruit in Missouri you kidding yourself you would have more players from that state. There is a big difference between actively recruiting a state and talking to a few kids.

Quick example before John Loose came to Lafayette we had very very few recruits from Florida. When Loose came along he has many connections from Florida that he leverages and over the years we have picked up more and more Florida guys. In fact we now have I believe 15 kids from Florida on the roster. Has everyone in Florida magically heard about Lafayette all of a sudden? No its rubber to the road recruiting by Loose, and this is what recruiting a state is--not sending a few letters to a kid.

[aceinthehole]

Going scholorship will take away tution money from the school. I don't know about Marist but I just can't see Iona giving 40 scholly's out or whatever it is for football. Tutition is around 36,000 now so do the math on how much tutition money the school will lose. The only aid we give out is academic aid. Trust me, I would love to see us go to the NEC. We have proven we can play in the NEC by going 3-0 against teams this year. Were talking about a program who doesn't even have stands in the stadium and now there going to give out schollys??!

Excatly! In fact Iona is technically making a profit on football (as most likely LaSalle, St. Peter's, Siena, Fairfield).

Assume, the average Gales football player is paying $25,000 a year (after need based aid) in tuition. With a 60-man roster, Iona is getting 1.5 million a year in tuition. That more than covers the expense for fotball and leaves some left over as "profit." Additionally, as someone esle pointed out it helps add 60 male students to a growing female population. Without football its likely only 20-30 kids would still go to Iona; the rest will find a football school (walk-on at I-AA, or D-II or D-II schools).

In the long term, dropping football will hurt the school. But without a coalition of similar minded institutions and strong conference leadership (as DFW and others have pointed out), the MAAC was a sinking ship. Now, without any peers, Iona is likely to be next :(

What is funny is that the very similarly-sized NEC private schools understood the impratance of football and was led by a great commissioner (who is now with the SoCon). The NEC had a commitment to football and backed it up with a budget - MAAC schools did not. There is hope for Iona and Marist, but their true "peers" (SFPA, SHU, Duq, Wag, etc) are now in the NEC and are committed to supporting football with their checkbook. If Iona refuses to make a similar comitment to football, its will soon be a memory.

[Dane96]

nm

[Dane96]

xnonono2x
Yep, ignore the FACTS and keep your collective heads in the sand.... I'm pretty sure that we listed states on the recruiting portion of our web site to make ourselves feel better. You know, just in case a kid's grandma from California calls up and begs to send her player to Dayton.... Get a life!xlolx You guys have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, in fact, less than no idea if that is possible! The fact is that Dayton recruits on a national level. Like most teams, the majority of the players are from states relatively close to the school, duh.... For some odd reason, parents seem to like to see their kids play once in a while.... Still, we landed kids from Florida, Connecticut, Missouri, Utah, Iowa, Wisconsin. Man, I sure am glad their grandmas called one of our coaches and brought them to our attention. TRY AGAIN!!!!!xnodx

Ok...for the impaired, let's make this simple. HOW MANY KIDS DO YOU SIGN...in these RECRUITING BATTLES...FROM THE IVY's AND PL's?

Well, considering your signees are nearly 85% from OHIO or IL, I would venture to say NOT MANY. I dont see IVY's and PL's SIGNING PLAYERS ONLY FROM THOSE TWO STATES.

So, to further spin that hamster wheel in your head, YOU ONLY WIN BATTLES (so you say) IN THE STATES OF OHIO and ILLINOIS (and Michigan was a close third) with THE IVY's OR PL...IF YOU WIN THEM AT ALL.

Again...the PL and IVY are, by logic, winning battles in THOSE OTHER 47 states if you are recruiting for the same player.

GOT IT?!?!

[Seahawks Fan]

I doubt that he gets it. xlolx

Where is Boogs when we need him? xconfusedx

[danefan]

Where is Boogs when we need him? xconfusedx

Say his name two more times and he shall appear.xbawlingx

[Ken_Z]

predictions:

1) Iona football is gone within 16 months


2) the PL scholarship decision is key to where Marist lands. if the PL does not adopt schollys, Marist will join as an all sports member. if they do adopt, Marist will not join. they will then have to decide between Pioneer, Indy or fold. i predict Marist football folds within three years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

predictions:

1) Iona football is gone within 16 months


2) the PL scholarship decision is key to where Marist lands. if the PL does not adopt schollys, Marist will join as an all sports member. if they do adopt, Marist will not join. they will then have to decide between Pioneer, Indy or fold. i predict Marist football folds within three years.

Do you think FB would drive that, though? Marist already offers basketball schollies, and I'm assuming that the AI index would be no big deal in that regard.

[DetroitFlyer]

xnonono2x

Ok...for the impaired, let's make this simple. HOW MANY KIDS DO YOU SIGN...in these RECRUITING BATTLES...FROM THE IVY's AND PL's?

Well, considering your signees are nearly 85% from OHIO or IL, I would venture to say NOT MANY. I dont see IVY's and PL's SIGNING PLAYERS ONLY FROM THOSE TWO STATES.

So, to further spin that hamster wheel in your head, YOU ONLY WIN BATTLES (so you say) IN THE STATES OF OHIO and ILLINOIS (and Michigan was a close third) with THE IVY's OR PL...IF YOU WIN THEM AT ALL.

Again...the PL and IVY are, by logic, winning battles in THOSE OTHER 47 states if you are recruiting for the same player.

GOT IT?!?!

Try to get a dose of reality here.... I did not say that Dayton is winning EVERY recruiting battle in EVERY state of the union!!!!!!! I did not even say that Dayton wins the majority of these battles. I cited two specific examples that I personally know of, and indicated that other PFL teams have similar success. Yeah, I just know that those PL & Ivy recruiters are on the road in ALL 50 states looking for players, LOL!!!!!

[Ruler 79]

Marist is a private WEALTHY school. They could spend the $ in 1/2 a second to ramp up to 30 rides and be in the NEC. They could also afford the PL if they wanted. This is not a case of can or can't afford the costs its a case of they WON'T spend the $. Cheap bastards!!!!!!! Same goes for all these schools that fold, THEY REFUSE TO SPEND THE $!!!!

On a side note with the conference landscape changing in the next two years I can see openings coming in the NEC...ie UA, CCSU, and Monmouth moving on! They just need to hang in there for 2 more seasons.

[Ken_Z]

Do you think FB would drive that, though? Marist already offers basketball schollies, and I'm assuming that the AI index would be no big deal in that regard.


my belief is that if the PL rejects scholarships, then the pool of expansion candidates (with football) is limited to the point where Marist makes sense to the league and the league is appealing to Marist.

if the PL adopts football scholarships, then the league will take its time and will pursue other candidates over several years. i also question Marist's willingness to commit to scholarship football even if invited under this scenario.

my prediction is based on the projection that scholarships will ultimately be adopted in some form despite the opposition of several schools.

[danefan]

Marist is a private WEALTHY school. They could spend the $ in 1/2 a second to ramp up to 30 rides and be in the NEC. They could also afford the PL if they wanted. This is not a case of can or can't afford the costs its a case of they WON'T spend the $. Cheap bastards!!!!!!! Same goes for all these schools that fold, THEY REFUSE TO SPEND THE $!!!!

On a side note with the conference landscape changing in the next two years I can see openings coming in the NEC...ie UA, CCSU, and Monmouth moving on! They just need to hang in there for 2 more seasons.

Which I why I see them hanging in the NEC for two years without schollys and getting smacked around. I don't think there is a minimum for the schollys in the NEC is there? Hang out as an associate FB member, get whooped by just about everyone (sans St. Francis and Sacred Heart) and make a better decision when Albany moves on. Same could be true for Iona. Not that I want that. I don't want to play either of them. Shoot I wish we didn't have to play SHU or St. Francis (no offense to their fans). I'd rather fill those spots with Fordham, Hofstra & SBU.

[Franks Tanks]

Marist is a private WEALTHY school. They could spend the $ in 1/2 a second to ramp up to 30 rides and be in the NEC. They could also afford the PL if they wanted. This is not a case of can or can't afford the costs its a case of they WON'T spend the $. Cheap bastards!!!!!!! Same goes for all these schools that fold, THEY REFUSE TO SPEND THE $!!!!

On a side note with the conference landscape changing in the next two years I can see openings coming in the NEC...ie UA, CCSU, and Monmouth moving on! They just need to hang in there for 2 more seasons.

Is Marist really that wealthy? I dont believe so. There endowment is only 21 million--not very much. Now I understand no one spends there endowment, but the figure is an indicator of what there capacity for donations is, so a private school with a small endowment will probaly have difficulty raising the needed funds for competitive FCS football.

[aceinthehole]

Marist is a private WEALTHY school. They could spend the $ in 1/2 a second to ramp up to 30 rides and be in the NEC. They could also afford the PL if they wanted. This is not a case of can or can't afford the costs its a case of they WON'T spend the $. Cheap bastards!!!!!!! Same goes for all these schools that fold, THEY REFUSE TO SPEND THE $!!!!

On a side note with the conference landscape changing in the next two years I can see openings coming in the NEC...ie UA, CCSU, and Monmouth moving on! They just need to hang in there for 2 more seasons.

Ruler - I think you are partly right.

1) Marist can afford the NEC. Right now they choose not to join the NEC for "academic" and other "institutional" reasons. I don't know the exact logic, but the admins at Marist must see some other options. They do not want to join the NEC, but they can surely afford to fund footbal at the level of RMU, SFPA, and Wagner. You are right on that, but PL funding may be a big stretch for them.

2) St. Peter's and LaSalle did not have the funding or desire to ramp up to even low NEC levels of support. They are not in the fiscal position of Marist. The funding required would have been a large burned on their athletic operations. They do not have the support (SID, weight training, etc) to keep up with even low-equity I-AA football.

3) I am also glad they St. Pete's and LaSalle turned down unofficial offers to join the NEC. I think Duquense will be a very good member and all indications are that Bryant will fit in nicely too. Marist still has the potential to be a valuaded member of the NEC, but I don't think they have a change in heart anytime soon.

[Marcus Garvey]

predictions:

1) Iona football is gone within 16 months


2) the PL scholarship decision is key to where Marist lands. if the PL does not adopt schollys, Marist will join as an all sports member. if they do adopt, Marist will not join. they will then have to decide between Pioneer, Indy or fold. i predict Marist football folds within three years.

I agree with point 1. I'm somewhat surprised to see that they still are fielding a team.

But why would Marist join the PL as an all sports member? Would that be a requirement of the PL? Right now, I see the PL as a downgrade from the MAAC in basketball.

[dgreco]

Ruler - I think you are partly right.

1) Marist can afford the NEC. Right now they choose not to join the NEC for "academic" and other "institutional" reasons. I don't know the exact logic, but the admins at Marist must see some other options. They do not want to join the NEC, but they can surely afford to fund footbal at the level of RMU, SFPA, and Wagner. You are right on that, but PL funding may be a big stretch for them.

2) St. Peter's and LaSalle did not have the funding or desire to ramp up to even low NEC levels of support. They are not in the fiscal position of Marist. The funding required would have been a large burned on their athletic operations. They do not have the support (SID, weight training, etc) to keep up with even low-equity I-AA football.

3) I am also glad they St. Pete's and LaSalle turned down unofficial offers to join the NEC. I think Duquense will be a very good member and all indications are that Bryant will fit in nicely too. Marist still has the potential to be a valuaded member of the NEC, but I don't think they have a change in heart anytime soon.

Has the second highest budget in the NEC.

[Ken_Z]

But why would Marist join the PL as an all sports member? Would that be a requirement of the PL? Right now, I see the PL as a downgrade from the MAAC in basketball.


two reasons:

1) yes, it would be a requirement of the PL

2) many still perceive the PL as a downgrade to the MAAC in hoops, but that is not the reality anymore

[alexale23]

probably a good idea if u dont win any games and lose to a school named Assumption

[Marcus Garvey]

two reasons:

1) yes, it would be a requirement of the PL

2) many still perceive the PL as a downgrade to the MAAC in hoops, but that is not the reality anymore

There is a saying, "Perception is 9/10th of Reality."

[danefan]

probably a good idea if u dont win any games and lose to a school named Assumption


Never a good idea to drop a football program. No matter how bad the team is.xsmhx

[Fresno St. Alum]

Questions about the future

Has Bryant been offered full membership in the NEC? What about NJIT?

When will the PL decide if it wants schollys?

If the PL offers schollys who will they add as full members?

If they don't is Marist a lock for the PL?

Would Marist ever join the NEC?

Will the AEC add CCSU?

[GeauxLions94]

Always a sad day when a football program is dropped. xsmhx

On behalf of all football fans out there I say ....

Boo! xthumbsdownx xthumbsdownx xthumbsdownx xthumbsdownx xthumbsdownx

[aceinthehole]

Questions about the future

Has Bryant been offered full membership in the NEC? What about NJIT? - Yes to Bryant (begins full membership in 2012, but may play a full NEC schedule before that). No to NJIT.

Would Marist ever join the NEC? - Never for all sports, and very, very unlikely (about 20%) for FB-only.

Will the AEC add CCSU? I personally hope so, but it is probably not likely until 2010 in a best case scenario (unless a current member bolts before that). I think the AE is waiting and hoping for URI and/or UMass, or a return of NU and/or Hofstra in all sports, but any of that has .01% probability. For now thaey are happy with the current 9-member setup for all sports, and has no interest yet in sponsoring football.

[Fresno St. Alum]

9 for basketball sucks. AEC could use CCSU.

Cool Bryant will be a full member of the NEC by 2012.

NJIT needs a conference. NEC is in their backyard.

[aceinthehole]

9 for basketball sucks. AEC could use CCSU.

Cool Bryant will be a full member of the NEC by 2012.

NJIT needs a conference. NEC is in their backyard.

Right now the NEC has 11 full members; Bryant will be #12.

Basically, the NEC didn't want (or need) to go to 13 members and took Bryant (w/ football) over NJIT.

I think the logic is if a current member leaves (like CCSU to the AE), then NJIT will get the call from the NEC. But until then they have to wait on the outside.

[maacfb]

I agree with Ken on this. I think the school wants the Patriot League for all sports but doesnt have an invite. The benefits of aligning the school with the academics of the PL far outweigh any perceived downgrade in basketball competition (which I think you can strongly argue isnt that much different). If the PL is ultimately going scholly though there is no shot of this happening bc in that scenario the PL would wait for a more appealing member. I think Marist will have to tough it out as an indy which is going to be very difficult. If they have PL dreams they should adopt the PL grant in aid approach and begin to increase funding so they can eventually become more competitive and prove that they want to & deserve an invite.

[Franks Tanks]

There is a saying, "Perception is 9/10th of Reality."

This is true but in both Patriot and MAAC basketball only the champ is of course going to the tourney, and since that is the case the real advantage then is seeding. When was the last time a MAAC team was seeded higher than 13 anyway? Bucknell has achieved a 13 seed out of the PL so it can be done. Holy Cross also got an NIT bid a few years back as well so that can be accomplished , so I dont really understand the benefits the MAAC may offer in Hoops.

[dgreco]

This is true but in both Patriot and MAAC basketball only the champ is of course going to the tourney, and since that is the case the real advantage then is seeding. When was the last time a MAAC team was seeded higher than 13 anyway? Bucknell has achieved a 13 seed out of the PL so it can be done. Holy Cross also got an NIT bid a few years back as well so that can be accomplished , so I dont really understand the benefits the MAAC may offer in Hoops.

The MAAC seems to be dying, they are also losing an AQ in Lacrosse to the NEC, which I am not sure how much it hurts, but it takes name recognition away.

As an aside, I think the only way we see Iona join is if we see a Hartford leave AEC or they decide to expand and take CCSU, because I do not think they would want to go to 13 teams. I could be wrong, but Bryant had a hard enough time getting in and NJIT was rejected.

[Ken_Z]

This is true but in both Patriot and MAAC basketball only the champ is of course going to the tourney, and since that is the case the real advantage then is seeding. When was the last time a MAAC team was seeded higher than 13 anyway? Bucknell has achieved a 13 seed out of the PL so it can be done. Holy Cross also got an NIT bid a few years back as well so that can be accomplished , so I dont really understand the benefits the MAAC may offer in Hoops.

actually, Bucknell got a 9 seed. the other advantage for PL hoops is that the upward trajectory should continue further. Lafayette will improve as they grow into a full scholarship program, Army and Navy are recruitung better, ...

wrt Marist, i also see them as one of the few MAAC teams that demonstrates an interest in having a solid overall athletic program rather than emphasizing a couple of sports. this fits better with the PL philosophy.

however, having said all this, my prediction remains the same, PL adopts schollys, Marist does not join. i do give the Marist option about a 1/3 probability.

[Franks Tanks]

actually, Bucknell got a 9 seed. the other advantage for PL hoops is that the upward trajectory should continue further. Lafayette will improve as they grow into a full scholarship program, Army and Navy are recruitung better, ...

wrt Marist, i also see them as one of the few MAAC teams that demonstrates an interest in having a solid overall athletic program rather than emphasizing a couple of sports. this fits better with the PL philosophy.

however, having said all this, my prediction remains the same, PL adopts schollys, Marist does not join. i do give the Marist option about a 1/3 probability.

How did I forget that--they played Arkansas that year (2005?) and beat them from the 9 seed. Thanks Ken more proof that PL basketball is at least comparable with the MAAC as far as the respect the league champ gets. Top to bottom the MAAC may be slightly better, but both league champs are similar in a given year. I think the PL will have scholl's for football soon. Most PL schools(sans g-town) are already funding the equivilant of 50-60 schollys from what I have gathered. I can see the PL going to schollys but putting a cap at 50 or 55 so it is a tad cheaper than fully funded FCS.

[aceinthehole]

actually, Bucknell got a 9 seed. the other advantage for PL hoops is that the upward trajectory should continue further. Lafayette will improve as they grow into a full scholarship program, Army and Navy are recruitung better, ...

wrt Marist, i also see them as one of the few MAAC teams that demonstrates an interest in having a solid overall athletic program rather than emphasizing a couple of sports. this fits better with the PL philosophy.
however, having said all this, my prediction remains the same, PL adopts schollys, Marist does not join. i do give the Marist option about a 1/3 probability.

Since its days in the NEC, Marist has a well rounded program. I think they won 4 commissioners cups in the NEC and have won last 5 or so in the MAAC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I see Marist's best chance of joining the PL is as part of "package deal" by convincing two or three schools to defect from the MAAC, preferably for schools in a big media market - this is why I keep thinking about Manhattan and Iona in the Bronx and the northern suburbs of NYC.

Now I'm on the record as saying that Marist is a very good fit anyway for the PL - but that's if you ignore TV considerations (Poughkeepsie is nothing). But add Iona and Manhattan and all of a sudden you have an 11 team league in most sports and 9 teams in football, along with a nice rivalry in hoops with Iona and Manhattan and also upgrading basketball in a huge way (except Iona, but historically they have been a pretty good team). Finally, they're all small privates, so in theory they are a good match.

I go back and forth about the PL when it comes to their glacial pace of looking at expansion. I keep thinking of Towson and American and how they've been shoe-horned into the league, both for pragmatic reasons. I think it could happen again.

[dgreco]

I see Marist's best chance of joining the PL is as part of "package deal" by convincing two or three schools to defect from the MAAC, preferably for schools in a big media market - this is why I keep thinking about Manhattan and Iona in the Bronx and the northern suburbs of NYC.

Now I'm on the record as saying that Marist is a very good fit anyway for the PL - but that's if you ignore TV considerations (Poughkeepsie is nothing). But add Iona and Manhattan and all of a sudden you have an 11 team league in most sports and 9 teams in football, along with a nice rivalry in hoops with Iona and Manhattan and also upgrading basketball in a huge way (except Iona, but historically they have been a pretty good team). Finally, they're all small privates, so in theory they are a good match.

I go back and forth about the PL when it comes to their glacial pace of looking at expansion. I keep thinking of Towson and American and how they've been shoe-horned into the league, both for pragmatic reasons. I think it could happen again.

How long do these programs stay idle? How long does it take the PL to make a move, if they are going to make one?

[DFW HOYA]

How long do these programs stay idle? How long does it take the PL to make a move, if they are going to make one?

They won't. Ask Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate this question: "Which Ivy League games will you be taking off your schedule to add Marist and Iona?"

Mahnattan, Marist, and Iona add very little to the PL footprint. Look to VMI and points southward.

[Franks Tanks]

They won't. Ask Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate this question: "Which Ivy League games will you be taking off your schedule to add Marist and Iona?"

Mahnattan, Marist, and Iona add very little to the PL footprint. Look to VMI and points southward.

Agreed. Although we have opened up the season with Marist the last few years I doubt we want to be locked into that game.

[dgreco]

Agreed. Although we have opened up the season with Marist the last few years I doubt we want to be locked into that game.

The PL is to slow with everything, I still think Bryant could of turned into a better fit in the PL than in the NEC, I like the NEC home, but the PL is a nice place to be. I also think they are going to wait to long on Marist, Iona and whoever else and blow another wasted opportunity.

[Marcus Garvey]

I'd like to point out that the MAAC has gotten at large bids to the NCAA Basketball Tourney, whereas the PL has not.

The PL would be a good fit for Marist if they wish to "upgrade" their image. That's why Penn dropped scholarships and abandoned their quest to be a big time football school in the early 50's. Look at their schedule prior to the formal formation of the Ivy League and you'll see what I mean.

Assuming the PL is interested, Marist has to decide what they prefer.

[boo]

Marist has been scheduling Patriot League teams more frequently over the last year or two. In all sports, not just football (where Marist hasn't been competitive). Is Marist trying to cozy up to the league, or do you think there has been some sort of informal indication from the conference that they may be considered?

I haven't looked at Iona or Manhattan schedules to see if they've done the same...

~~Boo

[UAalum72]

I'd like to point out that the MAAC has gotten at large bids to the NCAA Basketball Tourney, whereas the PL has not.
Make that ONE at-large bid in the MAAC's 24-year history - thirteen years ago. And two of the last six years have been in the PIG.

[Marcus Garvey]

Make that ONE at-large bid in the MAAC's 24-year history - thirteen years ago. And two of the last six years have been in the PIG.
One is still more than zero. :)

[Ken_Z]

I'd like to point out that the MAAC has gotten at large bids to the NCAA Basketball Tourney, whereas the PL has not.

acknowledged. Holy Cross won the NCAA championship in 1947 (or thereabouts). neither fact is terribly relevant in how the leagues stack up today or tomorrow.


Marist has been scheduling Patriot League teams more frequently over the last year or two. In all sports, not just football (where Marist hasn't been competitive). Is Marist trying to cozy up to the league, or do you think there has been some sort of informal indication from the conference that they may be considered?.

no doubt exploratory discussions indicating some potential interest have occured, and likely both parties have expressed some potential interest. the key remains the resolution of the football scholly issue. and yes, the PL (and the constituent schools) move at a snails pace on such matters. the PL needs to resolve this soon and announce a long term position. expansion efforts will follow based on this decision.

i feel confident in stating that neither Iona nor Manhattan have been or will be in any discussions about joining the PL. not the right fit for the league or the schools.

[TheValleyRaider]

Marist does want into the Patriot League, and frankly, I don't blame them. I think we also need to consider that academically they don't rate quite as well as the other league members. Even American's got decent numbers in comparison. Now, I'm sure that sounds elitist, and you know what? It is. We were founded as a conference of small, private, high end academic schools. That's the niche we want to fill and it's admirable. Marist is close, I think. They're certainly growing academically, and might not be far away from being in what would be considered, but you have to think that's a consideration in the League's mind.

I know some people are concerned over expanding, but really, what's the rush? The League is actually quite stable. There's the core 5 schools, plus Fordham and Georgetown, who both really like being in the League. I don't see the need for urgency that some people do. You can point to Towson, but really, was the Towson "experiment" good for either of us? It didn't fit within our mission, and the Tigers had difficulty adjusting to the environment. They may not be thriving in the CAA, but I think they're happier. Why attempt to force another school into the League that doesn't fit our profile?

I like Marist. I think they could be a good fit for the League. But I don't see the need to rush this decision. Marist needs to be willing to commit to the League academically and athletically. If the program is not only alive, but in position to do that in a couple of years, I'd welcome them. But let's not force something to happen.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I like Marist. I think they could be a good fit for the League. But I don't see the need to rush this decision. Marist needs to be willing to commit to the League academically and athletically. If the program is not only alive, but in position to do that in a couple of years, I'd welcome them. But let's not force something to happen.

Here's the whole problem with your reasoning. How long will Marist want to struggle as a non-scholly independent before that day may or may not happen? If the PL continues its dithering ways, Marist (and Iona, for that matter) may be ancient history.

Iona and Manhattan are also schools with a religious tilt, making them similar to Fordham, Holy Cross, and Georgetown, by the way. I don't think either are Jesuit, but they "fit" since they're small and private. I think they both want to be "the next Geroge Mason". Why not pursue that in the PL?

If the plan is to offer scholarships and "take Richmond", are they really ready to leave the A-10 completely? Last time that idea was floated, there was a mutiny there. Is the plan to THINK about getting them into the league by 2011? In football only, or in all sports? To me, that line of thinking involves a lot more questions.

[boo]

Marist does want into the Patriot League, and frankly, I don't blame them. I think we also need to consider that academically they don't rate quite as well as the other league members. Even American's got decent numbers in comparison.


Sour grapes over the game last night (61-60, Marist)?

Just kidding. I agree with what you say. If you look at the improvement in the academic profile of Marist over the last 5 to 10 years you see an upward trajectory that eventually could meet the expectations of the Patriot League. I'd like to see Marist in the Patriot, but the Patriot has to be convinced they belong. After reading comments here, I'm not sure that ever will be possible, no matter how well Marist does. I think the real problem is that Marist doesn't have the tradition or "cachet" that you are really looking for. Instead of a solid and improving school such as Marist, you'll hang your hopes on Villanova leaving the BE.


~~Boo

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sour grapes over the game last night (61-60, Marist)?

Just kidding. I agree with what you say. If you look at the improvement in the academic profile of Marist over the last 5 to 10 years you see an upward trajectory that eventually could meet the expectations of the Patriot League. I'd like to see Marist in the Patriot, but the Patriot has to be convinced they belong. After reading comments here, I'm not sure that ever will be possible, no matter how well Marist does. I think the real problem is that Marist doesn't have the tradition or "cachet" that you are really looking for. Instead of a solid and improving school such as Marist, you'll hang your hopes on Villanova leaving the BE.


~~Boo

And you summed up the problem perfectly. PL Brass are more willing to wait for the royal flush to fall in their laps instead of playing the flush they have already.

By that time, yet another ship will have sailed, and another program folder.

[boo]

By that time, yet another ship will have sailed, and another program folder.

I don't think the Marist football program will fold. Evidently, the administration has repeatedly expressed a commitment to the sport. I think they will remain an independent for a year or two to keep their options open (or, rather, their hopes up). If a Patriot invite doesn't happen, I expect they'll eventually opt for the Pioneer. Either way, Marist will need to invest more in their program. On other boards there are posts from people "in the know" who feel they will.

It's no secret that a Patriot membership would benefit Marist in areas far wider than their athletic program. I think the goal of the administration is to become a more elite school in that same mold. Marist has already made great strides to become that in a relatively short period of time. I may be too much of an optimist, but I'm bullish on Marist becoming that strong academically and institutionally. Their profile has risen from a metro/regional school to one recognized throughout the northeast, and to some extent, nationally. The location is a good one with a beautiful (and rapidly developing) campus on the Hudson. I wish the powers at the Patriot League would look at the potential of the school and try to envision what "can be" instead of what "hasn't been."

~~Boo

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think the Marist football program will fold. Evidently, the administration has repeatedly expressed a commitment to the sport. I think they will remain an independent for a year or two to keep their options open (or, rather, their hopes up). If a Patriot invite doesn't happen, I expect they'll eventually opt for the Pioneer. Either way, Marist will need to invest more in their program. On other boards there are posts from people "in the know" who feel they will.

It's no secret that a Patriot membership would benefit Marist in areas far wider than their athletic program. I think the goal of the administration is to become a more elite school in that same mold. Marist has already made great strides to become that in a relatively short period of time. I may be too much of an optimist, but I'm bullish on Marist becoming that strong academically and institutionally. Their profile has risen from a metro/regional school to one recognized throughout the northeast, and to some extent, nationally. The location is a good one with a beautiful (and rapidly developing) campus on the Hudson. I wish the powers at the Patriot League would look at the potential of the school and try to envision what "can be" instead of what "hasn't been."

~~Boo

I wholeheartedly agree. Academically, they are working very hard to get there. And it would also improve basketball immeditely, while siphoning off one of the MAAC's better schools in a variety of sports. IMO, it's a very good idea. This ain't Towson.

[TheValleyRaider]

Sour grapes over the game last night (61-60, Marist)?

Not at all. I'm just glad we can actually hang with a team of Marist's caliber xnodx


It's no secret that a Patriot membership would benefit Marist in areas far wider than their athletic program. I think the goal of the administration is to become a more elite school in that same mold. Marist has already made great strides to become that in a relatively short period of time. I may be too much of an optimist, but I'm bullish on Marist becoming that strong academically and institutionally. Their profile has risen from a metro/regional school to one recognized throughout the northeast, and to some extent, nationally. The location is a good one with a beautiful (and rapidly developing) campus on the Hudson. I wish the powers at the Patriot League would look at the potential of the school and try to envision what "can be" instead of what "hasn't been."

I tend to agree. I'm a Poughkeepsie native, and would love to see Marist continue to improve in all facets, and would support their entrance to the League provided they show the necessary committment. Like you, I think they can do it, and sincerely hope they will. The only potential drawback I can see is the historical name power that Marist lacks. It wouldn't surprise me if the League presidents in the end simply go off the historical reputation of Marist rather than it's more up and coming profile. They seem like a relatively forward-looking group, and I would hope they don't do that xpeacex



And you summed up the problem perfectly. PL Brass are more willing to wait for the royal flush to fall in their laps instead of playing the flush they have already.

By that time, yet another ship will have sailed, and another program folder.

I think you and I agree on the desireability of expansion, but disagree on the urgency of it. I look at the League and see a stable group of 7, which keeps us on safe ground regarding our playoff participation. Not necessarily ideal, but at the same time, it's hard to say we're facing danger any time soon. Similarly, when I survey the landscape of potential members, I don't see anyone that benefits us immediately.
-Schools like Villanova and W&M are pipe-dreams right now
-Marist isn't there yet, especially financially
-VMI? Maybe, but they hardly represent an upgrade athletically
Who else is there? No need to make a move for the sake of making a move. I do feel confident the League will expand when we find the right candidate. You can't be afraid to sometimes say, no one meets the criteria we are setting xtwocentsx

[Go...gate]

Here's the whole problem with your reasoning. How long will Marist want to struggle as a non-scholly independent before that day may or may not happen? If the PL continues its dithering ways, Marist (and Iona, for that matter) may be ancient history.

Iona and Manhattan are also schools with a religious tilt, making them similar to Fordham, Holy Cross, and Georgetown, by the way. I don't think either are Jesuit, but they "fit" since they're small and private. I think they both want to be "the next Geroge Mason". Why not pursue that in the PL?

If the plan is to offer scholarships and "take Richmond", are they really ready to leave the A-10 completely? Last time that idea was floated, there was a mutiny there. Is the plan to THINK about getting them into the league by 2011? In football only, or in all sports? To me, that line of thinking involves a lot more questions.

I think it is time to put the Richmond idea to rest. I simply cannot see them making any move after what they have just accomplished.

[Boogs]

Simple question:

Does Dayton recruit nationally like the Ivy's and PL. Answer-- NO. I looked at the roster....and out of the 40 some odd kids that are from out of state (BTW, the ROSTER IS THE LARGEST I HAVE EVER LAID EYES ON) they are primarily from Michigan, Illinois, and Western PA....which makes perfect sense. There are one or two tossed in from Kentucky, CT, UT, CO, and IA.

Dayton is not winning recruiting wars against the PL and IVY who recruit more NATIONALLY in scope.

I don't see it that way. If a school is going outside of the state to get players, chances are everyone locally knows it is a s*6t program (NEC/IVY/MAAC), hence the reason you see out of state ball players on the roster.

Funny thing Dayton keeps winning. Can you explain that away Dane96? So who do we trust? Dane96's comments or our own eyes?! xwhistlex

42-21. Congratulations! xwhistlex

[Franks Tanks]

I don't see it that way. If a school is going outside of the state to get players, chances are everyone locally knows it is a s*6t program, hence the reason you see out of state ball players on the roster.
Funny thing is they keep winning. Can you explain that away Dane96? So who do we trust? Dane96's comments or our own eyes?! xwhistlex

42-21. Congratulations. xwhistlex


That is the most illogical thing I have ever heard. Recruiting a wider area gives you access to more qualified student athletes than just a small area. How is that difficult to understand? Also attracting players from far away shows that the school has a more national reach and reputation. The Ivies and the service academices probably have a more diverse team geographically than any, have you heard of them?

[Boogs]

That is the most illogical thing I have ever heard. Recruiting a wider area gives you access to more qualified student athletes than just a small area. How is that difficult to understand? Also attracting players from far away shows that the school has a more national reach and reputation. The Ivies and the service academices probably have a more diverse team geographically than any, have you heard of them?

Look up the population stats headed west beginning in Virginia. Not much population until you cross the Ohio River.

Dayton sits in a population hot spot.

I gotta explain everything to you guys.

Born yesterday, FT? xcoffeex

[Franks Tanks]

Look up the population stats headed west beginning in Virginia. Not much population until you cross the Ohio River.

Dayton sits in a population hot spot.

I gotta explain everything to you guys.

Born yesterday, FT? xcoffeex

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn sit smack dab in the middle of the NE corridor which the most populous area of the country. Let me say this slowly...Philly, New York and Boston are bigger than Dayton last time I checked, yet all these schools recruits nationwide. Interestring isnt it

[Boogs]

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn sit smack dab in the middle of the NE corridor which the most populous area of the country. Let me say this slowly...Philly, New York and Boston are bigger than Dayton last time I checked, yet all these schools recruits nationwide. Interestring isnt it

You simply don't get it.

If you can get the same player locally, why the effort to get someone who has to attend your school on his own dime?

Merry Christmas.

[Maverick]

Boogs,
Just like your little rating system has shown, your lack of understanding about the reality of college football is beyond anything I have seen on this board. In a strange way such cluelessness is refreshing.xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Tribe4SF]

If a school is going outside of the state to get players, chances are everyone locally knows it is a s*6t program (NEC/IVY/MAAC), hence the reason you see out of state ball players on the roster.



xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox

That's a good one Boog! Keep 'em comin'!xlolx