Playoff Attendance Comparisons

[McNeeserocket]

It has been stated over and over on this site that McNeese should be seeded lower than Montana because of Montana's superior attendance at playoff games. However, in an effort to refute that theory I offer the information found at http://www.i-aa.org/section_front.asp?arttypeid=568

Basically, the statistics show that in the years that both McNeese and Montana were in the playoffs that McNeese usually had better attendance. In only a few cases did Montana's attendance exceed the attendance #s at McNeese and even then the #s were generally close. In fact, McNeese's Playoff attendance generally is better than any other teams' attendance in the years that McNeese played at home.

1993
First Round (11/27):
Ga. Southern 14, Eastern Ky. 12 (Statesboro, Ga. 7,278)
Youngstown St. 56, UCF 30 (Youngstown, Ohio 7,408)
Boston U. 27, UNI 21 (2 ot) (Boston, Mass. 6,882)
Idaho 34, La.-Monroe 31 (Monroe, La. 5,500)
Delaware 49, Montana 48 (Missoula, Mont. 11,271)
Marshall 28, Howard 14 (Huntington, W.Va. 13,554)
McNeese St. 34, William & Mary 28 (Lake Charles, La. 17,167)
Troy 42, Stephen F. Austin 20 (Troy, Ala. 4,500)

Quarterfinals (12/4):
Youngstown St. 34, Ga. Southern 14 (Youngstown, Ohio 9,503)
Idaho 21, Boston U. 14 (Moscow, Id. 8,800)
Marshall 34, Delaware 31 (Huntington, W.Va. 13,687)
Troy 35, McNeese St. 28 (Lake Charles, La. 20,000)


1994
First Round (11/26):
Youngstown St. 63, Alcorn St. 20 (Youngstown, Ohio 17,795)
Eastern Ky. 30, Boston U. 23 (Richmond, Ky. 4,111)
McNeese St. 38, Idaho 21 (Lake Charles, La. 16,000)
Montana 23, UNI 20 (Missoula, Mont. 7,958)
Marshall 49, Middle Tenn. St. 14 (Huntington, W.Va. 17,349)
James Madison 45, Troy 26 (Harrisonburg, Va. 5,200)
Boise St. 24, North Texas 20 (Boise, Id. 14,706)
Appalachian St. 17, New Hampshire 10 (ot) (Durham, N.H. 7,329)

McNeese played Montana in Quarter Final Game at Montana and lost
Quarterfinals (12/3):
Youngstown St. 18, Eastern Ky. 15 (Youngstown, Ohio 16,023)
Montana 30, McNeese St. 28 (Missoula, Mont. 8,419)
Marshall 28, James Madison 21 (ot) (Huntington, W.Va. 16,494)
Boise St. 17, Appalachian St. 14 (Boise, Id. 15,302)

1995
First Round (11/25):
McNeese St. 33, Idaho 3 (Lake Charles, La. 15,736)
Delaware 38, Hofstra 17 (Newark, Del. 13,295)
UNI 35, Murray St. 34 (Murray, Ky. 7,635)
Marshall 38, Jackson St. 8 (Huntington, W.Va. 13,035)
Appalachian St. 31, James Madison 24 (Boone, N.C. 9,467)
Stephen F. Austin 34, Eastern Ill. 29 (Nacogdoches, Tex. 3,552)
Ga. Southern 24, Troy 21 (Troy, Ala. 6,000)
Montana 48, Eastern Ky. 0 (Missoula, Mont. 13,830)

Quarterfinals (12/2):
McNeese St. 52, Delaware 18 (Lake Charles, La. 17,239)
Marshall 41, UNI 24 (Huntington, W.Va. 14,472)
Stephen F. Austin 27, Appalachian St. 17 (Boone, N.C. 8,941)
Montana 45, Ga. Southern 0 (Missoula, Mont. 18,518)

Semifinals (12/9):
Marshall 25, McNeese St. 13 (Lake Charles, La. 18,018)
Montana 70, Stephen F. Austin 14 (Missoula, Mont. 18,523)

1997
First Round (11/29):
Villanova 49, Colgate 28 (Villanova, Pa. 8,875)
Youngstown St. 28, Hampton 13 (Youngstown, Ohio 12,431)
Western Ky. 42, Eastern Ky. 14 (Bowling Green, Ky. 9,000)
Eastern Wash. 40, Northwestern St. 10 (Cheney, Wash. 6,384)
Delaware 24, Hofstra 14 (Newark, Del. 14,075)
Ga. Southern 52, Florida A&M 37 (Statesboro, Ga. 10,409)
McNeese St. 19, Montana 14 (Lake Charles, La. 13,681)
Western Ill. 31, Jackson St. 24 (Macomb, Ill. 8,980)

*The Remaining rounds of 1997 McNeese was on the road and advanced to the Championship Game


1998
First Round (11/28):
Ga. Southern 49, Colgate 28 (Statesboro, Ga. 7,676)
Connecticut 42, Hampton 34 (Storrs, Conn. 6,193)
Florida A&M 27, Troy 17 (Tallahassee, Fla. 16,509)
Western Ill. 52, Montana 9 (Macomb, Ill. 3,614)
Lehigh 24, Richmond 23 (Richmond, Va. 10,254)
Massachusetts 21, McNeese St. 19 (Lake Charles, La. 11,349)
Appalachian St. 45, Tennessee St. 31 (Boone, N.C. 3,885)
Northwestern St. 48, Illinois St. 28 (Natchitoches, La. 8,118)



2001
First Round (12/1):
Montana 28, Northwestern St. 19 (Missoula, Mont. 17,289)
Sam Houston St. 34, Northern Ariz. 31 (Huntsville, Tex. 8,143)
Maine 14, McNeese St. 10 (Lake Charles, La. 12,450)
UNI 49, Eastern Ill. 43 (Charleston, Ill. 6,824)
Ga. Southern 60, Florida A&M 35 (Statesboro, Ga. 9,884)
Appalachian St. 40, William & Mary 27 (Boone, N.C. 5,279)
Lehigh 27, Hofstra 24 (ot) (Bethlehem, Pa. 10,131)
Furman 24, Western Ky. 20 (Greenville, S.C. 6,143)


2002
First Round (11/30):
McNeese St. 21, Montana St. 14 (Lake Charles, La. 16,211)
Montana 45, Northwestern St. .14 (Missoula, Mont. 15,758)
Villanova 45, Furman 38 (Villanova, Pa. 3,031)
Fordham 29, Northeastern 24 (Boston, Mass. 6,848)
Ga. Southern 34, Bethune-Cookman 0 (Statesboro, Ga. 7,395)
Maine 14, Appalachian St. 13 (Boone, N.C. 4,311)
Western Ky. 59, Murray St. 20 (Bowling Green, Ky. 3,300)
Western Ill. 48, Eastern Ill. 9 (Macomb, Ill. 2,429)

Quarterfinals (12/7):
McNeese St. 24, Montana 20 (Lake Charles, La. 15,758)
Villanova 24, Fordham 10 (Villanova, Pa. 4,351)
Ga. Southern 31, Maine 7 (Statesboro, Ga. 6,708)
Western Ky. 31, Western Ill. 28 (Macomb, Ill. 3,285)

Semifinals (12/14):
McNeese St. 39, Villanova 28 (Lake Charles, La. 16,517)
Western Ky. 31, Ga. Southern 28 (Statesboro, Ga. 6,573)

2003
First Round (11/29):
Northern Ariz. 35, McNeese St. 3 (Lake Charles, La. 14,300)
Fla. Atlantic 32, Bethune-Cookman 24 (Daytona Beach, Fla. 8,468)
Colgate 19, Massachusetts 7 (Hamilton, N.Y. 4,197)
Western Ill. 43, Montana 40 (2 ot) (Missoula, Mont. 10,165)
Wofford 31, N.C. A&T 10 (Spartanburg, S.C. 10,500)
Western Ky. 45, Jacksonville St. 7 (Bowling Green, Ky. 3,573)
Delaware 48, Southern Ill. 7 (Newark, Del. 14,572)
UNI 35, Montana St. 14 (Cedar Falls, Ia. 10,165)

[ASU88]

Why stop at 2003? Wouldn't a more recent comparison be more reflective of what you could expect THIS year.

For example, in years past, crowds for the first round in Boone were not so great. However, there was a good crowd last year and we'd likely put 20-25K in there this year. Might not be a sellout during Thanksgiving weekend, but many would go up for the day.

[grizzpaw]

does ANY body sell out the first round?

[RadMann]

Playoff gates are almost always under-reported.

[DaGriz]

We had a stadium increase in 2003. In 2002 it only held 19,000. It now seats 23,000. We never draw well that first round, Thanksgiving weekend. Lots of season ticket holders on the other side of the state.

[CrunchGriz]

They're probably basing it not on the first round, but on subsequent rounds. Everyone's attendance is off in the first round because of Thanksgiving, and both McNeese and Montana would have first round games anyway if they both end up 11-0. It's the later rounds where Montana would have an advantage. Montana does substantially better in later rounds.

Incidentally, I don't know how anyone came up with the number you had for the WIU game in 2003; the actual number was 16222 (I was there--it certainly wasn't in the 10,000 range).

The other thing is that Montana numbers have improved a lot since the late 1990's because the stadium has a higher capacity now, so using those old numbers for comparison doesn't work. Has McNeese increased capacity since the 1990s?

Here are Montana's recent playoff attendance numbers (since the stadium was expanded to its current size):

2004 Northwestern State 16289
2004 New Hampshire 20919
2004 SHSU 23607

2005 Cal Poly 16162

2006 McNeese 20077
2006 SIU 18883
2006 UMass 23454

So, over the last three years Montana has averaged 17509 in the first round and 21715 in rounds 2 and 3.

[twentythreeOh4]

It has been stated over and over on this site that McNeese should be seeded lower than Montana because of Montana's superior attendance at playoff games. However, in an effort to refute that theory I offer the information found at http://www.i-aa.org/section_front.asp?arttypeid=568

Basically, the statistics show that in the years that both McNeese and Montana were in the playoffs that McNeese usually had better attendance. In only a few cases did Montana's attendance exceed the attendance #s at McNeese and even then the #s were generally close. In fact, McNeese's Playoff attendance generally is better than any other teams' attendance in the years that McNeese played at home.

...

Western Ill. 43, Montana 40 (2 ot) (Missoula, Mont. 10,165)


First of all, comparing Montana's playoff attendance from the early '90's is not very relevant since UM expanded its stadium twice since then (1995 and 2003). Back then Washington-Grizzly had only 12,000 seats. So of course, UM's playoff attendance was much less than it is now with 23,000 seats.

Second of all, your figures for the 2003 game against W. Illinois are wrong. The attendance was much higher -- 16,222.

[McNeeserocket]

First of all, comparing Montana's playoff attendance from the early '90's is not very relevant since UM expanded its stadium twice since then (1995 and 2003). Back then Washington-Grizzly had only 12,000 seats. So of course, UM's playoff attendance was much less than it is now with 23,000 seats.

Second of all, your figures for the 2003 game against W. Illinois are wrong. The attendance was much higher -- 16,222.

These are not my figures. These figures are the ones that were reported to NCAA and recorded by the NCAA. If the figures are wrong then perhaps they were misreported by your school officials to the NCAA.

I am sure that if you can prove the attendance figures are low in any or all given years that the NCAA would be only too happy to collect the unreported revenue!

[McNeeserocket]

Why stop at 2003? Wouldn't a more recent comparison be more reflective of what you could expect THIS year.

For example, in years past, crowds for the first round in Boone were not so great. However, there was a good crowd last year and we'd likely put 20-25K in there this year. Might not be a sellout during Thanksgiving weekend, but many would go up for the day.

Perhaps the point of the topic was not clear to you. The posting was to show that in the years that both McNeese and Montana were in the playoffs that Montana did not out draw McNeese consistently. In fact, McNeese outdrew Montana more times than Montana outdrew McNeese.

The reason I did not list results past 2003 is because that McNeese did compete in the playoffs in 2004 or 2005. In 2006, the only playoff game McNeese played in was a game played against and at Montana. So in all three of these years (04, 05, and 06) I did not have a way to show direct comparisons.

[grizband]

Why stop at 2003? Wouldn't a more recent comparison be more reflective of what you could expect THIS year.

For example, in years past, crowds for the first round in Boone were not so great. However, there was a good crowd last year and we'd likely put 20-25K in there this year. Might not be a sellout during Thanksgiving weekend, but many would go up for the day.
The point becomes less valid each year after 2003, including last year when the Griz set an all-time first round attendance record.

[eddyg]

Delaware 48, Southern Ill. 7 (Newark, Del. 14,572)
:O

[McNeeserocket]

The point becomes less valid each year after 2003, including last year when the Griz set an all-time first round attendance record.

No, the point is to show that according to attendance records held by the NCAA that Montana has not consistently outdrawn McNeese in years that both competed.

[Mike Johnson]

No, the point is to show that according to attendance records held by the NCAA that Montana has not consistently outdrawn McNeese in years that both competed.

Yes, your point is well understood. It just doesn't strike most people here as all that valid. Why should only years where both hosted at least one game be the only years counted?

[GRZZ]

That is ridiculous. The only years that matter are the years that McNeese had home games would imply that somehow Montana's attendance is tied to whether there is a home game in Lake Charles, LA? Again, ridiculous. There is no way that anyone who matters in the least bit would even make this comparison much less use it as valid fodder for arguing a point.

The first round attendance record is more likely to be considered.
The attendance records since the stadium was expanded to its current size is more likely to be considered.

... yeah.

[McNeeserocket]

Yes, your point is well understood. It just doesn't strike most people here as all that valid. Why should only years where both hosted at least one game be the only years counted?

I showed these years only, because the argument to give Montana the higher seed (as stated by quite a few) is because they would outdraw McNeese. The only way to prove or disprove this statement/arguement is to use official figures where both competed in the same year(s) and boht had home games.

Yes, Montana draws well. This fact is not refuted. However, McNeese draws as well, and sometimes better in years where both are competing on their home turf. Hense the arguement that it is only fiscally sound to give Montana a higher seed because they will draw better does not appear to have statistical proof.

[McNeeserocket]

That is ridiculous. The only years that matter are the years that McNeese had home games would imply that somehow Montana's attendance is tied to whether there is a home game in Lake Charles, LA? Again, ridiculous. There is no way that anyone who matters in the least bit would even make this comparison much less use it as valid fodder for arguing a point.

The first round attendance record is more likely to be considered.
The attendance records since the stadium was expanded to its current size is more likely to be considered.

... yeah.

Do they teach reading comprehension in Montana? One more time..........
For those people who have been making the argument that it would be fiscally and financially more lucrative to give Montana the higher seed because they draw better crowds than McNeese, I have provided NCAA recorded statistics that prove otherwise. In fact, both draw equally well as I provided every year that both competed and both had home games

[grizband]

Here is a break down of each Montana home playoff game since 2003, when the most recent expansion was complete. Attendance figures are courtesy of Montanagrizzlies.com.

2003
Montana vs Western Illinois (16,222)

2004
Montana vs Northwestern State (16,289)
Montana vs New Hampshire (20,919)
Montana vs Sam Houston State (23,607)

2005
Montana vs Cal Poly (16,162)

2006
Montana vs McNeese State (20,077)
Montana vs Southern Illinois (18,883)
Montana vs Massachusetts (23,454)

Average first round attendance: 17,188
Average second round attendance: 19,901
Average semi-final attendance: 23,531

Since the expansion, Montana has never had below 16,000 for a playoff game, and set the record for the first round last year, which no one sells out.

[McNeeserocket]

Here is a break down of each Montana home playoff game since 2003, when the most recent expansion was complete. Attendance figures are courtesy of Montanagrizzlies.com.

2003
Montana vs Western Illinois (16,222)

2004
Montana vs Northwestern State (16,289)
Montana vs New Hampshire (20,919)
Montana vs Sam Houston State (23,607)

2005
Montana vs Cal Poly (16,162)

2006
Montana vs McNeese State (20,077)
Montana vs Southern Illinois (18,883)
Montana vs Massachusetts (23,454)

Average first round attendance: 17,188
Average second round attendance: 19,901
Average semi-final attendance: 23,531

Since the expansion, Montana has never had below 16,000 for a playoff game, and set the record for the first round last year, which no one sells out.

Great Statistics and home attendance, but still provides no head to head proof that Montana has outdrawn in the past and/or will outdraw McNeese. I will give you this, figures for 2003, 2004,2005, and 2006 show great attendance. If this topic was about who has great attendance in the last 4 years than your figures would be applicable to the argument. But this was not the argument set forth in this topic.

[grizband]

Great Statistics and home attendance, but still provides no head to head proof that Montana has outdrawn in the past and/or will outdraw McNeese. I will give you this, figures for 2003, 2004,2005, and 2006 show great attendance. If this topic was about who has great attendance in the last 4 years than your figures would be applicable to the argument. But this was not the argument set forth in this topic.
I believe these statistics are applicable, because they show the current trend, which has increased as a general rule since the Griz won a title in 1995. As someone pointed out earlier, the stadium has been expanded twice, and with out recent success, it is no exaggeration that this trend would continue. If we go back to 1993, one could make the argument that Appalachian State should not get a home game, even though their average attendance has dramatically increased this season due to recent success.

[placidlakegriz]

Great Statistics and home attendance, but still provides no head to head proof that Montana has outdrawn in the past and/or will outdraw McNeese. I will give you this, figures for 2003, 2004,2005, and 2006 show great attendance. If this topic was about who has great attendance in the last 4 years than your figures would be applicable to the argument. But this was not the argument set forth in this topic.


Your numbers reflect a time when Montana had a smaller stadium. The only numbers that are relevant are the number since the last expansion in 2003.

[placidlakegriz]

Your numbers reflect a time when Montana had a smaller stadium. The only numbers that are relevant are the number since the last expansion in 2003.

And by the way, the numbers through 2007 may not be relevant going forward as we have another expansion in 2008

[McNeeserocket]

I believe these statistics are applicable, because they show the current trend, which has increased as a general rule since the Griz won a title in 1995. As someone pointed out earlier, the stadium has been expanded twice, and with out recent success, it is no exaggeration that this trend would continue. If we go back to 1993, one could make the argument that Appalachian State should not get a home game, even though their average attendance has dramatically increased this season due to recent success.

Your recent attendance figures only show that attendance for playoff games has been greater and should be greater than in past years, due to increased seating availability. Since McNeese has no attendance figures for home playoff games since 2003, your figures can not be used to show head to head attendance superiority probability.

[placidlakegriz]

Your recent attendance figures only show that attendance for playoff games has been greater and should be greater than in past years, due to increased seating availability. Since McNeese has no attendance figures for home playoff games since 2003, your figures can not be used to show head to head attendance superiority probability.


Has your stadium gone through an expansion since hosting your last playoff game?

[Oregon_Griz]

Great Statistics and home attendance, but still provides no head to head proof that Montana has outdrawn in the past and/or will outdraw McNeese. I will give you this, figures for 2003, 2004,2005, and 2006 show great attendance. If this topic was about who has great attendance in the last 4 years than your figures would be applicable to the argument. But this was not the argument set forth in this topic.

If McNeese had home games in the playoffs the last few years, your comparison would be valid. But with Montana averaging 23,234 in attendance per game this year and McNeese St. averaging 14,119 per game your argument has little hope. Montana has a better chance of reaching 20,000 in attendance in a playoff game than Mcneese St.

[McNeeserocket]

And by the way, the numbers through 2007 may not be relevant going forward as we have another expansion in 2008

Great information but still not relavant to the topic. Once again in order to prove that A is greater than B you must show that there is data for both A and B to compare. Though there is data for A (Montana) in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006, there is no data for B (McNeese) for 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. Therefore no way to prove head to head benefit for A over B.

[McNeeserocket]

If McNeese had home games in the playoffs the last few years, your comparison would be valid. But with Montana averaging 23,234 in attendance per game this year and McNeese St. averaging 14,119 per game your argument has little hope. Montana has a better chance of reaching 20,000 in attendance in a playoff game than Mcneese St.

Your inference that Montana will have greater attendance in the playoff games because they have had greater attendance in recent regular season games may be another theory (which may pocess some projection merit) but still does not follow the topic. That topic is that Montana should be given the higher seed because they have outdrawn McNeese in head to head attendance comparisions in past years when both had home playoff games.

Good theory, wrong application for this topic. If you want to porve a different theory using statistics that project possibilities of out drawing McNeese in the future, you might want to start another topic.

[placidlakegriz]

Great information but still not relavant to the topic. Once again in order to prove that A is greater than B you must show that there is data for both A and B to compare. Though there is data for A (Montana) in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006, there is no data for B (McNeese) for 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. Therefore no way to prove head to head benefit for A over B.

There is no need to prove head to head benefit. There is no correlation between your attendance and ours.

[Oregon_Griz]

Your inference that Montana will have greater attendance in the playoff games because they have had greater attendance in regular games may be another theory (which may pocess some projection merit) but does not still follow the topic. That topic is that Montana should be given the higher seed because they have outdrawn McNeese in head to head attendance comparisions in years when both had home playoff games.

Good theory, wrong application for this topic.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that the seed should not be based on how many buts are put in the seats of any given stadium. I also do not feel there is any given justice in such a policy. But, just as was demonstrated last year when Montana was seeded ahead of U. Mass. There were very few arguements that would have placed Montana as the better team for seeding, other than the dollars generated but the buts Montana puts in the seats. It is what pays for the playoffs.

[McNeeserocket]

There is no need to prove head to head benefit. There is no correlation between your attendance and ours.

First off, if that is true, then the statements being made to give Montana the higher seed because they will outdraw McNeese in attendance, is by your own statement here, not provable because there is no correlation (your words). If that were true, and it is not, then we could dispense with that argument altogether.

However, since there is historical proof that shows there is statistical data that shows that Montana has not outdrawn McNeese consistently in years where both have home playoff games, then it must be noted that the agrument has not proven to be true in applicable years.

[Oregon_Griz]

First off if that is true, then the statements being made to give Montana the higher seed because they will outdraw McNeese in attendance, is by your own statement here , not provable because there is no correlation. If that were true, and it is not, then we could dispense with that argument altogether.

However, since there is historical proof that shows there is statistical data that shows that Montana has not outdrawn McNeese consistently in years where both have home playoff games then it must be noted that the agrument has not proven to be true in applicable years.

You are right there is no direct correlation and do direct figures to compare, but a few figures you can figure include stadium capacity, 2007season attendance. Montana stadium capacity 23,117; McNeese St. 17,500; season attendance Montana 23,234, McNeese St. 14,119. Tell me what chance McNeese has of outdrawing Montana in attendance?

[Oregon_Griz]

And you might want to go to ncaa.org for the correct attendance figures the ones you put up earlier were from 1-aa.org and they are wrong.

[McNeeserocket]

Ok, here is what we have.

-We have two teams that are undefeated to date.
-We have two teams that have been in the playoffs for a good many years (Montana holds the edge in # of playoff years)
-We have two teams that have, as a rule, excellent playoff game attendance
_We have two teams that have played a total of six games in the history of the schools (4 playoff games and 2 regular season games) and share equal success against each other with a 3-3 head to head record with all six games being won by the home team
-We have two teams that both start with the letter M
-and we both have two great programs with great fans (fans that believe their team is worth all the words and all the postings in the world to prove how great and deserving their teams are)

Can we at least agree on these ponts?

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

Something is wrong with these numbers, I was at the App/Maine game in 2002, and I know the home side and visitor side were almost full. I estimate there was easily 12,000 there.

[appfan2008]

And by the way, the numbers through 2007 may not be relevant going forward as we have another expansion in 2008

where are the next planned expansions at wa griz? and how many new seats???

[Oregon_Griz]

Ok, here is what we have.
-We have two teams that are undefeated to date.
-We have two teams that have been in the playoffs for a good many years (Montana holds the edge in # of playoff years)
-We have two teams that have as a rule excellent playoff game attendance
_We have two teams that have played a total six games in the histroy of the schools (4 playoff games and 2 regular season games) and share equal success against each other with a 3-3 head to head record with all six games being won by the home team
-We have two team that both start with the letter M
-and we both have two great programs with great fans (fans believe their team is worth all the words and all the postings in the world to prove how great and deserving their teams are)

Can we at least agree on these ponts?


Actually, we can! And I have enjoyed your posts, they have a foundation. I just am not sure that McNeeese has a chance of out drawing Montana. Not saying it is impossible, just not probable.

[McNeeserocket]

And you might want to go to ncaa.org for the correct attendance figures the ones you put up earlier were from 1-aa.org and they are wrong.

If you provide me a link to said site I will be happy to look at the figures that give the same data for the same years of playoff games. Could you list the website to which you allude? I provided mine in my first posting on this topic and it would be most helpful if you do the same.

I provided the link that I did for the basis of this topic because it was supplied by a reputable site. I would however be interested to see the "NCAA site" that provides in some case different figures. I would also be interested in seeing how much the two sites differ.

[McNeeserocket]

Actually, we can! And I have enjoyed your posts, they have a foundation. I just am not sure that McNeeese has a chance of out drawing Montana. Not saying it is impossible, just not probable.

You are not sure that McNeese has a future chance of outdrawing Montana? Because it would seem that for at least some years in the past that McNeese did in fact out draw Montana for some rounds.

I am just happy that McNeese has an opportunity to play some home playoff games. Whether we outdraw, tie, or underdraw Montana, I am happy that FCS gives us that opportunity.

[griz_fan_in_SanDiego]

where are the next planned expansions at wa griz? and how many new seats???

Next year...total capacity is supposed to be increased to 25,000

[grizband]

Ok, here is what we have.

-We have two teams that are undefeated to date.
-We have two teams that have been in the playoffs for a good many years (Montana holds the edge in # of playoff years)
-We have two teams that have, as a rule, excellent playoff game attendance
_We have two teams that have played a total of six games in the history of the schools (4 playoff games and 2 regular season games) and share equal success against each other with a 3-3 head to head record with all six games being won by the home team
-We have two teams that both start with the letter M
-and we both have two great programs with great fans (fans that believe their team is worth all the words and all the postings in the world to prove how great and deserving their teams are)

Can we at least agree on these ponts?
We can agree on this! I hope both schools get 2 home games and meet in the semis this year (in Missoula, of course).

[McNeeserocket]

Something is wrong with these numbers, I was at the App/Maine game in 2002, and I know the home side and visitor side were almost full. I estimate there was easily 12,000 there.

If your #s are different it could be because your administration under reported figures. If that is true, I am sure the NCAA would be happy to accept amended figures and accept additional revenues for those unreported attendees.

[McNeeserocket]

We can agree on this! I hope both schools get 2 home games and meet in the semis this year (in Missoula, of course).

or perhaps in Lake Charles???????????? xsmiley_wix

[grizband]

or perhaps in Lake Charles???????????? xsmiley_wix
If the Griz have to travel, I could think of worse places.xthumbsupx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Your recent attendance figures only show that attendance for playoff games has been greater and should be greater than in past years, due to increased seating availability. Since McNeese has no attendance figures for home playoff games since 2003, your figures can not be used to show head to head attendance superiority probability.

OK let's go with the even attendance in years both McNeese and Montana are in the playoffs with home games. What does that possibly have to do with how either team draws in attendance now? You can't be under the misguided notion that the committee will only look at those years can you? They would look at how the programs are drawing now if that is what they do take into consideration. I don't know that they do this, but it appears that they do and they have done so in the past.

A lesson in specious reasoning (Simpson's inspired)


Lisa: Dad, what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Uh-huh, and how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work. It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: I see.
Lisa: But you don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.

[IABison]

Lisa: Dad, what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Uh-huh, and how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work. It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: I see.
Lisa: But you don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

That takes me back!

[twentythreeOh4]

These are not my figures. These figures are the ones that were reported to NCAA and recorded by the NCAA. If the figures are wrong then perhaps they were misreported by your school officials to the NCAA.

I am sure that if you can prove the attendance figures are low in any or all given years that the NCAA would be only too happy to collect the unreported revenue!

UM's playoff attendance was not misreported. You have an incorrect figure -- your source is wrong.

UM's attendance for the 2003 W. Illinois game was 16,222 not 10,165.

http://web.montanagrizzlies.com/mtgriz/files/stats_content/football_men/2003/um-wiu.htm

[GRZZ]

Do they teach reading comprehension in Montana? One more time..........
For those people who have been making the argument that it would be fiscally and financially more lucrative to give Montana the higher seed because they draw better crowds than McNeese, I have provided NCAA recorded statistics that prove otherwise. In fact, both draw equally well as I provided every year that both competed and both had home games

Yes, they teach many great things at The University of Montana. Reading comprehension is one thing, but they also teach us to use logic and reason when formulating opinions and theories. As several Montana fans have pointed out, your comparisons are very flawed for several reasons. They have been stated and I am not going to rehash them. The bottom line is our playoff attendance figures have absolutely zero reliance on one another. You being in the playoffs in no way impacts our home attendance, and vise versa. Your arguments fits your twisted parameters, but no serious person would ever accept it as a basis for what you are suggesting because other factors are much more likely to be relevant to our crowds then the attendance figures from when we both had home games. If the committee looks at anything, they look at our recent playoff draws (like the last two to three years) and the fact that we are second in the nation in attendance this year, nearly 13000 ahead of you. All of those are more relevant to the comparison you are making, and if you can't see that you need to take your McGlasses off. You may notice, that no one, not a single poster has come your defense here. Some might now that I have said that, but your conclusions are flawed and it only weakens your credibility for you to so stubbornly stand by them regardless of how they support whatever technical point you are trying to make.

[uofmman1122]

This thread is freaking hilarious. xlolx

McNeeserocket......wow.....just wow. xlolx

So a much more accurate correlation would be that, back when you gathered this seating and attendance information, McNeese and Montana had about the same capacity. I'm sure they probably averaged about the same in the regular season, too. (probably not, though)

You're argument is incredibly weak (and humorous) because you blatantly ignore the fact that Montana's attendance is directly related to it's capacity. And, by the same token, your's is as well.

Higher capacity = Higher attendance.

Now, even if McNeese St. had had a home game in every round of the last 3 years' playoffs, at max capacity, you would average about 17,500 (or whatever your capacity is). In those three years, including only one game in Wash. Griz in 2005 which was a very low number compared to the second round playoff games, and a below average attendance number in the first round in 2004, the average playoff attendance for Montana was....

Wait for it...

19,451.625

(we'll even round down the .625ths of a person. Aren't we generous?)

So...

Even if McNeese sold out and crammed it's home stadium for a home game in every round of the playoffs in the last three years, it would still fall about 2,000 people below the average of Montana in the playoffs.

Your argument holds no water, and I'll be here all week. xcoffeex

[CamelCityAppFan]

This has been a very entertaining thread to read. The twists of logic in here border on "what if d-o-g really spelled 'cat'..." xeyebrowx

I think the simple fact that there is no recent home attendance playoff data for McNeese (because they weren't in the playoffs) would, in the minds of the playoff committee, be the tie-breaker here. Recent (and I mean last year and the year before) playoff performance has an impact on the decisions that are made.

Also, going back in time to get numbers for comparison, but ignoring the fact that one of the major pieces of the formula have since changed (i.e. the stadium capicity for one of the sites) makes the whole argument fall apart.

If you want to create a model that would be more convincing, you should use some type of index based on history to create a projection for this year. I would suggest that instead of using the historical raw attendance numbers for the years both teams were in the playoffs, you calculate a percent of stadium capacity figure. You can examine those figures, look at the trend, and probably come up with a reasonable projection of percent of capacity for this year and apply that to each school, and see who comes out on top.
xpeacex

[McNeeserocket]

UM's playoff attendance was not misreported. You have an incorrect figure -- your source is wrong.

UM's attendance for the 2003 W. Illinois game was 16,222 not 10,165.

http://web.montanagrizzlies.com/mtgriz/files/stats_content/football_men/2003/um-wiu.htm

I love it. You use your own university's site to prove your attendance was higher (not a good impartial way to use statistics). I used a third party impartial site to show attendance figures. However, using your schools site could suggest the following:

- Your school underreported attendance figures on purpose, which of course would short the NCAA by a substantial amount of money

- Your school inaccurately reported figures accidentally and did not bother to provide correct ones after the figures were misreported

- Your school made a simple mistake and did not know it made the made the mistake

- All schools' figures could be low and none of the data for any of the schools is correct


You do realize that NCAA representatives are present at each playoff game. They use official ticket receipts to calculate attendance. Therefore, unless the NCAA allows a different formula than actual receipts, I would assume the figures are close to being correct (at the least, they are universally calculated the same way, which would mean that all games may have different and higher actual figures if all butts in the seats are not counted).

The comparison was made to show that Montana has not always outdrawn McNeese whether; we use data from any of the eleven-year span from 1993 through 2003.

I never said Montana could not outdraw McNeese. I simply said, that in refute of the statement that Montana has outdrawn McNeese in playoff attendance in the past, means it will again in the future has no historical consistent proof.

The size of Montana's stadium surely shows the ability to outdraw almost any school in FCS, by the ability to put more people in the available seats. However, according to the site I used (a non school impartial site) in 1993 McNeese put approximately 2500 more people in the stadium for the quarter final game than what the seating capacity was and still is (McNeese stadium capacity is approximately 17500 and according to figures used from the website we had 20,000 people at the game). I believe Montana had standing room only crowds in the past when their end zones were not blocked in.

[jbuggASU]

Wow....... Now if I could just find a way to get the last five minutes of my life back. xpeacex

[McNeeserocket]

I think the simple fact that there is no recent home attendance playoff data for McNeese (because they weren't in the playoffs) would, in the minds of the playoff committee, be the tie-breaker here. Recent (and I mean last year and the year before) playoff performance has an impact on the decisions that are made.

How recent is 2006? Saying we weren't in the playoffs recently is incorrect. We were not in the playoffs for 2004 or 2005, but we were in the playoffs last year. We simply did not have a home playoff game last year.

[NZNCRZY]

It has been stated over and over on this site that McNeese should be seeded lower than Montana because of Montana's superior attendance at playoff games. However, in an effort to refute that theory I offer the information found at http://www.i-aa.org/section_front.asp?arttypeid=568

Basically, the statistics show that in the years that both McNeese and Montana were in the playoffs that McNeese usually had better attendance. In only a few cases did Montana's attendance exceed the attendance #s at McNeese and even then the #s were generally close. In fact, McNeese's Playoff attendance generally is better than any other teams' attendance in the years that McNeese played at home.

1993
First Round (11/27):
Ga. Southern 14, Eastern Ky. 12 (Statesboro, Ga. 7,278)
Youngstown St. 56, UCF 30 (Youngstown, Ohio 7,408)
Boston U. 27, UNI 21 (2 ot) (Boston, Mass. 6,882)
Idaho 34, La.-Monroe 31 (Monroe, La. 5,500)
Delaware 49, Montana 48 (Missoula, Mont. 11,271)
Marshall 28, Howard 14 (Huntington, W.Va. 13,554)
McNeese St. 34, William & Mary 28 (Lake Charles, La. 17,167)
Troy 42, Stephen F. Austin 20 (Troy, Ala. 4,500)

Quarterfinals (12/4):
Youngstown St. 34, Ga. Southern 14 (Youngstown, Ohio 9,503)
Idaho 21, Boston U. 14 (Moscow, Id. 8,800)
Marshall 34, Delaware 31 (Huntington, W.Va. 13,687)
Troy 35, McNeese St. 28 (Lake Charles, La. 20,000)


1994
First Round (11/26):
Youngstown St. 63, Alcorn St. 20 (Youngstown, Ohio 17,795)
Eastern Ky. 30, Boston U. 23 (Richmond, Ky. 4,111)
McNeese St. 38, Idaho 21 (Lake Charles, La. 16,000)
Montana 23, UNI 20 (Missoula, Mont. 7,958)
Marshall 49, Middle Tenn. St. 14 (Huntington, W.Va. 17,349)
James Madison 45, Troy 26 (Harrisonburg, Va. 5,200)
Boise St. 24, North Texas 20 (Boise, Id. 14,706)
Appalachian St. 17, New Hampshire 10 (ot) (Durham, N.H. 7,329)

McNeese played Montana in Quarter Final Game at Montana and lost
Quarterfinals (12/3):
Youngstown St. 18, Eastern Ky. 15 (Youngstown, Ohio 16,023)
Montana 30, McNeese St. 28 (Missoula, Mont. 8,419)
Marshall 28, James Madison 21 (ot) (Huntington, W.Va. 16,494)
Boise St. 17, Appalachian St. 14 (Boise, Id. 15,302)

1995
First Round (11/25):
McNeese St. 33, Idaho 3 (Lake Charles, La. 15,736)
Delaware 38, Hofstra 17 (Newark, Del. 13,295)
UNI 35, Murray St. 34 (Murray, Ky. 7,635)
Marshall 38, Jackson St. 8 (Huntington, W.Va. 13,035)
Appalachian St. 31, James Madison 24 (Boone, N.C. 9,467)
Stephen F. Austin 34, Eastern Ill. 29 (Nacogdoches, Tex. 3,552)
Ga. Southern 24, Troy 21 (Troy, Ala. 6,000)
Montana 48, Eastern Ky. 0 (Missoula, Mont. 13,830)

Quarterfinals (12/2):
McNeese St. 52, Delaware 18 (Lake Charles, La. 17,239)
Marshall 41, UNI 24 (Huntington, W.Va. 14,472)
Stephen F. Austin 27, Appalachian St. 17 (Boone, N.C. 8,941)
Montana 45, Ga. Southern 0 (Missoula, Mont. 18,518)

Semifinals (12/9):
Marshall 25, McNeese St. 13 (Lake Charles, La. 18,018)
Montana 70, Stephen F. Austin 14 (Missoula, Mont. 18,523)

1997
First Round (11/29):
Villanova 49, Colgate 28 (Villanova, Pa. 8,875)
Youngstown St. 28, Hampton 13 (Youngstown, Ohio 12,431)
Western Ky. 42, Eastern Ky. 14 (Bowling Green, Ky. 9,000)
Eastern Wash. 40, Northwestern St. 10 (Cheney, Wash. 6,384)
Delaware 24, Hofstra 14 (Newark, Del. 14,075)
Ga. Southern 52, Florida A&M 37 (Statesboro, Ga. 10,409)
McNeese St. 19, Montana 14 (Lake Charles, La. 13,681)
Western Ill. 31, Jackson St. 24 (Macomb, Ill. 8,980)

*The Remaining rounds of 1997 McNeese was on the road and advanced to the Championship Game


1998
First Round (11/28):
Ga. Southern 49, Colgate 28 (Statesboro, Ga. 7,676)
Connecticut 42, Hampton 34 (Storrs, Conn. 6,193)
Florida A&M 27, Troy 17 (Tallahassee, Fla. 16,509)
Western Ill. 52, Montana 9 (Macomb, Ill. 3,614)
Lehigh 24, Richmond 23 (Richmond, Va. 10,254)
Massachusetts 21, McNeese St. 19 (Lake Charles, La. 11,349)
Appalachian St. 45, Tennessee St. 31 (Boone, N.C. 3,885)
Northwestern St. 48, Illinois St. 28 (Natchitoches, La. 8,118)



2001
First Round (12/1):
Montana 28, Northwestern St. 19 (Missoula, Mont. 17,289)
Sam Houston St. 34, Northern Ariz. 31 (Huntsville, Tex. 8,143)
Maine 14, McNeese St. 10 (Lake Charles, La. 12,450)
UNI 49, Eastern Ill. 43 (Charleston, Ill. 6,824)
Ga. Southern 60, Florida A&M 35 (Statesboro, Ga. 9,884)
Appalachian St. 40, William & Mary 27 (Boone, N.C. 5,279)
Lehigh 27, Hofstra 24 (ot) (Bethlehem, Pa. 10,131)
Furman 24, Western Ky. 20 (Greenville, S.C. 6,143)


2002
First Round (11/30):
McNeese St. 21, Montana St. 14 (Lake Charles, La. 16,211)
Montana 45, Northwestern St. .14 (Missoula, Mont. 15,758)
Villanova 45, Furman 38 (Villanova, Pa. 3,031)
Fordham 29, Northeastern 24 (Boston, Mass. 6,848)
Ga. Southern 34, Bethune-Cookman 0 (Statesboro, Ga. 7,395)
Maine 14, Appalachian St. 13 (Boone, N.C. 4,311)
Western Ky. 59, Murray St. 20 (Bowling Green, Ky. 3,300)
Western Ill. 48, Eastern Ill. 9 (Macomb, Ill. 2,429)

Quarterfinals (12/7):
McNeese St. 24, Montana 20 (Lake Charles, La. 15,758)
Villanova 24, Fordham 10 (Villanova, Pa. 4,351)
Ga. Southern 31, Maine 7 (Statesboro, Ga. 6,708)
Western Ky. 31, Western Ill. 28 (Macomb, Ill. 3,285)

Semifinals (12/14):
McNeese St. 39, Villanova 28 (Lake Charles, La. 16,517)
Western Ky. 31, Ga. Southern 28 (Statesboro, Ga. 6,573)

2003
First Round (11/29):
Northern Ariz. 35, McNeese St. 3 (Lake Charles, La. 14,300)
Fla. Atlantic 32, Bethune-Cookman 24 (Daytona Beach, Fla. 8,468)
Colgate 19, Massachusetts 7 (Hamilton, N.Y. 4,197)
Western Ill. 43, Montana 40 (2 ot) (Missoula, Mont. 10,165)
Wofford 31, N.C. A&T 10 (Spartanburg, S.C. 10,500)
Western Ky. 45, Jacksonville St. 7 (Bowling Green, Ky. 3,573)
Delaware 48, Southern Ill. 7 (Newark, Del. 14,572)
UNI 35, Montana St. 14 (Cedar Falls, Ia. 10,165)



You don’t necessarily get the advantage by the number of people that attend the game but the ticket prices. Montana tickets sell for $25 + a game. McNeese State tickets sell from $12.00 - $16.00 a game. McNeese State would have to draw almost twice as many fans at their ticket price to match the revenue that Montana brings in. I know the committee considers that closely. Just my thoughts

[CamelCityAppFan]

How recent is 2006? Saying we weren't in the playoffs recently is incorrect. We were not in the playoffs for 2004 or 2005, but we were in the playoffs last year. We simply did not have a home playoff game last year.

OK, whatever. You've completely overlooked my main point, which is to create a projection based on an indexed comparison, rather than just put raw numbers out there. In that comparison, maybe you come out on top, maybe not. But the raw numbers are pretty meaningless when presented out of context. xcoffeex

[CamelCityAppFan]

You don’t necessarily get the advantage by the number of people that attend the game but the ticket prices. Montana tickets sell for $25 + a game. McNeese State tickets sell from $12.00 - $16.00 a game. McNeese State would have to draw almost twice as many fans at their ticket price to match the revenue that Montana brings in. I know the committee considers that closely. Just my thoughts

Excellent point. Yet another factor to be considered beyond the raw attendance numbers.

[grizband]

You don’t necessarily get the advantage by the number of people that attend the game but the ticket prices. Montana tickets sell for $25 + a game. McNeese State tickets sell from $12.00 - $16.00 a game. McNeese State would have to draw almost twice as many fans at their ticket price to match the revenue that Montana brings in. I know the committee considers that closely. Just my thoughts
Aren't playoff tickets set by the NCAA, not the host schools? I would think it was $25 across the board, but I could be mistaken.

[NZNCRZY]

Aren't playoff tickets set by the NCAA, not the host schools? I would think it was $25 across the board, but I could be mistaken.

From what I understand the ticket price during the play-off is that you charge no less than your cheapest ticket price during the regular season. Other than that I think it is up to the school.

[McTailGator]

Why stop at 2003? Wouldn't a more recent comparison be more reflective of what you could expect THIS year.

For example, in years past, crowds for the first round in Boone were not so great. However, there was a good crowd last year and we'd likely put 20-25K in there this year. Might not be a sellout during Thanksgiving weekend, but many would go up for the day.


That was the last year McNeese had a home game.

[McTailGator]

Aren't playoff tickets set by the NCAA, not the host schools? I would think it was $25 across the board, but I could be mistaken.

The MINIMUM price is set by them. Schools can charge more if they want to.

[McTailGator]

You don’t necessarily get the advantage by the number of people that attend the game but the ticket prices. Montana tickets sell for $25 + a game. McNeese State tickets sell from $12.00 - $16.00 a game. McNeese State would have to draw almost twice as many fans at their ticket price to match the revenue that Montana brings in. I know the committee considers that closely. Just my thoughts
.

McNeese jacks up the price of tickets for playoff games to pay for the NCAA Mobster cut. xcoolx

[McNeeserocket]

One more time.....
-I am not refuting that Montana has a bigger stadium
-I am not refuting that Montana has the ability to have greater attendance
-I am not refuting that Montana charges more per game ticket, thus making more money per ticket
-I am not refuting that the NCAA uses more than attendance #s to select teams and seeds
-I am not refuting that the last time McNeese had a home playoff game was in 2003 and that it is now 2007
-I am not refuting the idea that McNeese may have lower attendance #s than Montana this year at the playoff game(s) especially since I cannot see into the future.

The only thing I was refuting was that the statements made by some fans (both Montana and non-Montana fans) that Montana has a history "IN THE PAST" of out drawing McNeese in attendance in the years that they both had playoff games. My rebuttal was based on the statistics that CSN/I-AA.org has compiled from assumed official NCAA data.

I have nothing but respect for Montana. In fact, if I were asked to pick a team that McNeese would like to tag team with, it would be Montana. If I were asked whom my preference would be to play on "ANY GIVEN SATURDAY" it would be Montana. Montana has the Cadillac of all the FCS programs. I cannot find one flaw with the Montana program, unless it is where they happen to be geographically situated in the wintertime!

[twentythreeOh4]

I love it. You use your own university's site to prove your attendance was higher (not a good impartial way to use statistics). I used a third party impartial site to show attendance figures. However, using your schools site could suggest the following:

- Your school underreported attendance figures on purpose, which of course would short the NCAA by a substantial amount of money

- Your school inaccurately reported figures accidentally and did not bother to provide correct ones after the figures were misreported

- Your school made a simple mistake and did not know it made the made the mistake

- All schools' figures could be low and none of the data for any of the schools is correct


You do realize that NCAA representatives are present at each playoff game. They use official ticket receipts to calculate attendance. Therefore, unless the NCAA allows a different formula than actual receipts, I would assume the figures are close to being correct (at the least, they are universally calculated the same way, which would mean that all games may have different and higher actual figures if all butts in the seats are not counted).



I told you that one of your attendance figure for ONE game (2003 W.Illinois @ Montana) was wrong. You had 10,165. I gave you the correct figure 16,222 and a link to show you I wasn't making that number up or pulling it out of the air.

You go off about Montana under reporting attendance, Montana making a mistake reporting attendance, Montana shortchanging the NCAA. But not once do you consider the possibility that I-AA.org might have made a mistake putting the data on it's web site?

You don't even question the fact that the 10,165 figure was much less than the other nine playoff game Montana has had since 2001? Instead you accuse Montana cheating and say that NCAA representatives are present at each playoff game. Unbelievable.

Since you want 3rd party figures, here you go.

Big Sky Conference reports the Attendance for that game as 16,222
http://www.bigskyconf.com/stats.asp?page=stats/Football/2003/CONFSKED.HTM

And the NCAA reports the Attendance as 16,222
http://web1.ncaa.org/ncaa/archives/football/d1/2003/1990071.pdf

The correct attendance was 16,222. That what was reported at the time. That is what was in all the box scores. YOUR FIGURE IS WRONG.

Finally, your whole argument is silly. The fact is, the playoff committee will not be going back to the '90's to estimate 2007 playoff attendance at McNeese or Montana. They will look at the most recent years and base the estimates off that.

[ERASU2113]

Wow....... Now if I could just find a way to get the last five minutes of my life back. xpeacex

HAHAHAHAHAH

[Tod]

Great information but still not relavant to the topic. Once again in order to prove that A is greater than B you must show that there is data for both A and B to compare. Though there is data for A (Montana) in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006, there is no data for B (McNeese) for 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. Therefore no way to prove head to head benefit for A over B.

Then your entire argument/thread is pointless. The NCAA will go with the proven.

xthumbsupx xreadx

[CamelCityAppFan]

Don't Montana and McNeese still have one game apiece to win before the issue of who gets a higher seed is at hand? Just curious... xwhistlex

[appstate38]

does ANY body sell out the first round?

Don't know the numbers but I believe we had close to a sellout when we played Coastal last year. It helped that they traveled well for the game though. Not like the place was full of Black and Gold.