SoCon Expansion?

[katss07]

Was lurking around another forum earlier and read that the SoCon was “deep in talks” or something like that with North Alabama and Eastern Kentucky. Went to UNA’s board to investigate and people were talking. Obviously in the off-season people talk about anything but I thought that was interesting.

I know we have some connected SoCon fans here. Is this a thing?

[NY Crusader 2010]

It seems like there is just one too many southern-based FCS/low-major DI conference.

Obviously the SoCon isn't going anywhere. But between the A-Sun, Big South, OVC and Southland, it seems like consolidation will lead to one of these conferences going out of business.

[Libertine]

It seems like there is just one too many southern-based FCS/low-major DI conference.

Obviously the SoCon isn't going anywhere. But between the A-Sun, Big South, OVC and Southland, it seems like consolidation will lead to one of these conferences going out of business.

The Big South has enough basketball and Olympic sports members to keep it kicking just as it was pre-2002, but its demise as a football conference is a fait accompli.

[bonarae]

It seems like there is just one too many southern-based FCS/low-major DI conference.

Obviously the SoCon isn't going anywhere. But between the A-Sun, Big South, OVC and Southland, it seems like consolidation will lead to one of these conferences going out of business.

xoutofrepx

But I agree with the former sentence. FCS football is too concentrated on the South.

BTW, when will Stetson add scholarships in football and join the ASun there?

[FUBeAR]

FCS football is too concentrated on the South.
https://media.tenor.com/V-b2xV_JKY4AAAAC/whatt-confused.gif

[ElCid]

Was lurking around another forum earlier and read that the SoCon was “deep in talks” or something like that with North Alabama and Eastern Kentucky. Went to UNA’s board to investigate and people were talking. Obviously in the off-season people talk about anything but I thought that was interesting.

I know we have some connected SoCon fans here. Is this a thing?

Could always happen, but I don't see either of those schools being invited. If we had really wanted to expand, I think it will only be a 1/1 add, public/private and Campbell would have been an easy add. Now there are no privates, of worth, to be part of that formula.

[Professor Chaos]

I thought UNA and EKU were in the group that wanted to take the WAC/ASUN straight to the FBS (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35216756/atlantic-sun-wac-teams-pairing-move-fbs-sources-say)??? Seems pretty much the opposite for them to be looking to join the fully committed to FCS SOCON. Either the wack-a-son startup FBS conference is a pipe dream or this rumor of these schools joining the SOCON is bogus (not out of the realm of the possibilities that both are s*** thrown against the wall).

[FUBeAR]

I thought UNA and EKU were in the group that wanted to take the WAC/ASUN straight to the FBS (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35216756/atlantic-sun-wac-teams-pairing-move-fbs-sources-say)??? Seems pretty much the opposite for them to be looking to join the fully committed to FCS SOCON. Either the wack-a-son startup FBS conference is a pipe dream or this rumor of these schools joining the SOCON is bogus (not out of the realm of the possibilities that both are s*** thrown against the wall).
https://www.watchuseek.com/attachments/e8cbf7a692d299f7d088888268a1ef2b-gif.16075480/

[katss07]

I thought UNA and EKU were in the group that wanted to take the WAC/ASUN straight to the FBS (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35216756/atlantic-sun-wac-teams-pairing-move-fbs-sources-say)??? Seems pretty much the opposite for them to be looking to join the fully committed to FCS SOCON. Either the wack-a-son startup FBS conference is a pipe dream or this rumor of these schools joining the SOCON is bogus (not out of the realm of the possibilities that both are s*** thrown against the wall).
Not sure how to link it, but Herder put out a tweet this week stating that conference leadership had basically walked back the FBS stuff, and that the league being able to move up had no standing. Seems like that was all posturing.

edit: it was Bryan Fischer of Fox Sports who reported this initially this week.

[Libertine]

conference leadership had basically walked back the FBS stuff, and that the league being able to move up had no standing. Seems like that was all posturing.


What a surprise. Seriously, this is my surprised face. --> xeyebrowx

If only there had been someone passingly familiar with FCS football -- let's say the several hundred occupants of a message board dedicated to this particular sport and subdivision -- able to see this coming, it might have saved the conference some embarrassment.

[UNAPride]

Was lurking around another forum earlier and read that the SoCon was “deep in talks” or something like that with North Alabama and Eastern Kentucky. Went to UNA’s board to investigate and people were talking. Obviously in the off-season people talk about anything but I thought that was interesting.

I know we have some connected SoCon fans here. Is this a thing?

I was told last month that the SoCon has visited both EKU and UNA campuses recently. But, that's all I've heard since then.

From the UNA board recently: "If the SoCon extends an invite, we WILL take it. But as of this moment, only Chattanooga, ETSU, Western Carolina, and The Citadel want to expand."

[ElCid]

I was told last month that the SoCon has visited both EKU and UNA campuses recently. But, that's all I've heard since then.

From the UNA board recently: "If the SoCon extends an invite, we WILL take it. But as of this moment, only Chattanooga, ETSU, Western Carolina, and The Citadel want to expand."

Just curious, you got an actual, reliable, source for your last statement? Not sure that is the position of those who matter, at least at The Citadel. One or two fans wanting it doesn't equate to the school desiring it. As I said, just curious.

[UNAPride]

Just curious, you got an actual, reliable, source for your last statement? Not sure that is the position of those who matter, at least at The Citadel. One or two fans wanting it doesn't equate to the school desiring it. As I said, just curious.

Just a UNA board poster/booster who talks around especially to UNA folks. He's been right on a lot of ASUN-related stuff. But, he doesn't share it as absolute fact. Just what he's heard around those circles.

https://unapride.proboards.com/thread/1682/unas-future

[walliver]

It is hard for me to see The Citadel wanting to add UNA and EKU. I would expect El Cid to stick with VMI and the privates.

I can see how UNA and EKU would be attractive to Chatty, ETSU and WCU; but, unless we somehow steal two from the CAA (very unlikely), I don't see the other 5 going for this.

With Campbell off the table, I don't see any private schools that would be desirable for the conference. Adding two larger public schools would unbalance the league which currently consists of 4 traditional public schools (including UNC-G), 4 private schools and 2 smaller military schools.

[The Cats]

The only way that the SoCon expands is on a one-for-one basis. For every public, there must be an acceptable private and vice versa. While I think it's in the best interest of the conference to expand, I don't see it happening because coming up with the right combinations are very difficult if not impossible to please enough members for expansion to be approved.

It only becomes a little easier when a school departs, but you must replace that school, with the same type.

[EKU05]

I was told last month that the SoCon has visited both EKU and UNA campuses recently. But, that's all I've heard since then.

From the UNA board recently: "If the SoCon extends an invite, we WILL take it. But as of this moment, only Chattanooga, ETSU, Western Carolina, and The Citadel want to expand."

I'm not ruling anything out, but I have my doubts that we would accept that invite. Don't get me wrong...the SoCon would be a great conference to be in, but our administration is in FBS or bust mode. The SoCon would enforce a higher buyout, and it's also really hard for me to envision them even inviting a school that so obviously has one foot out the door.

[Catamount87]

I'm not ruling anything out, but I have my doubts that we would accept that invite. Don't get me wrong...the SoCon would be a great conference to be in, but our administration is in FBS or bust mode. The SoCon would enforce a higher buyout, and it's also really hard for me to envision them even inviting a school that so obviously has one foot out the door.

Go back a number of years to when Kenessaw St was looking for a home and to start football. A number of overtures were made about wanted to be in the SoCon. It was known then they had designs on FBS hence most all the SoCon ADs and presidents were not keen on adding them because of that.

[UNAPride]

I can see how UNA and EKU would be attractive to Chatty, ETSU and WCU; but, unless we somehow steal two from the CAA (very unlikely), I don't see the other 5 going for this.


I don't see it happening either. The SoCon has four tiny private schools with less than 4k students. Not sure why UNA and EKU would be interested. Chatty and ETSU should just jump to the ASUN.

[ElCid]

I don't see it happening either. The SoCon has four tiny private schools with less than 4k students. Not sure why UNA and EKU would be interested. Chatty and ETSU should just jump to the ASUN.

Four tiny private? Hmm. Just trying to be accurate.

Private:
Wofford - yup small, 1800
Furman - yup small, 2600
Samford - yup small, 3600
Mercer - umm, not that small, 9k

Public:
VMI - 1700
The Citadel - 2800
UTC - 10-11k
WCU - 11-12k
ETSU - 14k
UNC Greensboro - 16K

The SOCON basically has 5 small schools and 5 larger schools. The balance comes from having 4 private, 4 public, and 2 specialty public.


UNA - 9k
EKU - 14k

[UNAPride]

Four tiny private? Hmm. Just trying to be accurate.

Private:
Wofford - yup small, 1800
Furman - yup small, 2600
Samford - yup small, 3600
Mercer - umm, not that small, 9k

Public:
VMI - 1700
The Citadel - 2800
UTC - 10-11k
WCU - 11-12k
ETSU - 14k
UNC Greensboro - 16K

The SOCON basically has 5 small schools and 5 larger schools. The balance comes from having 4 private, 4 public, and 2 specialty public.


UNA - 9k
EKU - 14k

I meant no disrespect. The SoCon is an excellent conference and many of our fans want to be in it. The ASUN also has a few small schools. I didn't realize the SoCon actually has five schools under 4K.

UNA has record enrollment of over 10K now. The transition to D1 has definitely sparked growth there. UNA is the fastest-growing college in Alabama.

https://whnt.com/news/shoals/una-sees-record-enrollment/

[ElonFirefighter]

I heard from a reliable source that The Citadel wants Elon back, along with all the other Public schools. Sorry couldn't resist. Personally I do miss the SoCon. Living in charlotte all games were an easy drive, and we did have some good rivalries, though a lot of those schools left. I do agree with TheCats the SOCon has always kept a very good split and it would serve them best to keep it. it does create a lot of inner fighting between schools(AD's) on direction but there is a lot of history SEC, ACC

[The Cats]

I heard from a reliable source that The Citadel wants Elon back, along with all the other Public schools. Sorry couldn't resist. Personally I do miss the SoCon. Living in charlotte all games were an easy drive, and we did have some good rivalries, though a lot of those schools left. I do agree with TheCats the SOCon has always kept a very good split and it would serve them best to keep it. it does create a lot of inner fighting between schools(AD's) on direction but there is a lot of history SEC, ACC

You know you were setting off a lot of bells and whistles with that first sentence for The Citadel fans. Where ever he is, I'm sure citdog has a splitting headache from that one.

[ElonFirefighter]

You know you were setting off a lot of bells and whistles with that first sentence for The Citadel fans. Where ever he is, I'm sure citdog has a splitting headache from that one.

I've beat citdog with a rolled up news paper enough for him to know better. ;) I do have fond memories of our Star QB's dad drunk off his ass during The Citadels ceremonial silent march. He kept yellling at the cadets, what is that all you do, flip you gun or something. I had to hold a few back telling them it wasn't worth the trouble they would be in and to please forgive our drunk fan. Don't seem to het the same banter from the CAA

[Reign of Terrier]

I was told last month that the SoCon has visited both EKU and UNA campuses recently. But, that's all I've heard since then.

From the UNA board recently: "If the SoCon extends an invite, we WILL take it. But as of this moment, only Chattanooga, ETSU, Western Carolina, and The Citadel want to expand."

Typical Richard Johnson move lol


(Wofford AD for those who don't know)

[Reign of Terrier]

Anyway, the reason why the Socon would expand would be one of two reasons:
1) Help Basketball computer rankings (hey look! Furman won!)
2) Pad the scheduling for football, making it easy as cheese to make the playoffs. It's how the CAA still gets respect nowadays.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Socon pouched some teams in the OVC/Big South/ASUN because it helps their position relative to other FCS/mid-major conferences in the South. On the top of my head, I don't know who those teams would be, considering there's been so much in flux the last few years.

[Libertine]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Socon pouched some teams in the OVC/Big South/ASUN because it helps their position relative to other FCS/mid-major conferences in the South. On the top of my head, I don't know who those teams would be, considering there's been so much in flux the last few years.

There's nobody left for the SoCon to take from the Big South. That would be like looting an abandoned trailer park at this point.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Anyway, the reason why the Socon would expand would be one of two reasons:
1) Help Basketball computer rankings (hey look! Furman won!)
2) Pad the scheduling for football, making it easy as cheese to make the playoffs. It's how the CAA still gets respect nowadays.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Socon pouched some teams in the OVC/Big South/ASUN because it helps their position relative to other FCS/mid-major conferences in the South. On the top of my head, I don't know who those teams would be, considering there's been so much in flux the last few years.

....DELAWARE/TOWSON/ALBANY.....AN' NOW MAINE.......HAVE SKEDDED...NORTH DAKOTA STATE....OOC.....LATELY....xsighx......BRAWK!

[KPSUL]

Anyway, the reason why the Socon would expand would be one of two reasons:
1) Help Basketball computer rankings (hey look! Furman won!)
2) Pad the scheduling for football, making it easy as cheese to make the playoffs. It's how the CAA still gets respect nowadays.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Socon pouched some teams in the OVC/Big South/ASUN because it helps their position relative to other FCS/mid-major conferences in the South. On the top of my head, I don't know who those teams would be, considering there's been so much in flux the last few years.

Come on R of Terrier, you normally can resist the temptation of hype and hubris! Last season the CAA added Monmouth and Hampton. Monmouth came into the conference coming off playoff seasons in 2019 and Spring 2021, and a 7-4 record Fall of 2021. They also gained several All CAA pre-season selections, including a QB selected as pre-season offensive player of the year. They did finish with a 2022 losing record; however, they were in every game except for one. Hampton, not so much. But I don't think adding one playoff team and one below average FCS team to a 13 team conference pads every team's schedule.

The SoCon had a number of record padding teams last season as well, starting with Wofford, Western, and for most the season - The Citadel.
For 2023 the CAA adds NC A&T, which has been the best HBCU football team for most of the past 7 seasons and Campbell who looked pretty darn competitive last season and continues to have recruiting classes rated among the best in FCS football.

[FUBeAR]

Looks to FUBeAR that, just this afternoon, the SoCon expanded and reminded the ACC that we are, and always have been, their Daddy.

https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1636441567249481728

[ElCid]

Come on R of Terrier, you normally can resist the temptation of hype and hubris! Last season the CAA added Monmouth and Hampton. Monmouth came into the conference coming off playoff seasons in 2019 and Spring 2021, and a 7-4 record Fall of 2021.

The SoCon had a number of record padding teams last season as well, starting with Wofford, Western, and for most the season - The Citadel.

For 2023 the CAA adds NC A&T, which has been the best HBCU football team for most of the past 7 seasons and Campbell who looked pretty darn competitive last season and continues to have recruiting classes rated among the best in FCS football.

And yet all three SOCON teams you listed were rated higher in the final Massey than Monmouth, and Hampton, and Campbell, two higher than A&T..... Sure we lost to Campbell, but really?

These CAA adds were not power adds. Not horrible, but not as good as you are trying to make them out to be. Team quality obviously ebbs and flows. With umteen teams in the CAA you got to know that a few teams will have a favorable schedule to pad their record. Same applies to Big Sky. Luck of the draw for teams that are surging and yet get blessed with a good bit their conference's bottom feeders.

I'm not sure if there is another conf as even as the SOCON. This past year was a little bit more separated between top and bottom, but looking at the last five years or so, it has been fairly even.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Looks to FUBeAR that, just this afternoon, the SoCon expanded and reminded the ACC that we are, and always have been, their Daddy.

https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1636441567249481728

Congrats, you were the first person I thought of while watching this.

[ElCid]

Furman sucks.

[FUBeAR]

Furman sucks.
Y’all just send that NCAA share check back upstate then.

[KPSUL]

And yet all three SOCON teams you listed were rated higher in the final Massey than Monmouth, and Hampton, and Campbell, two higher than A&T..... Sure we lost to Campbell, but really?

These CAA adds were not power adds. Not horrible, but not as good as you are trying to make them out to be. Team quality obviously ebbs and flows. With umteen teams in the CAA you got to know that a few teams will have a favorable schedule to pad their record. Same applies to Big Sky. Luck of the draw for teams that are surging and yet get blessed with a good bit their conference's bottom feeders.

I'm not sure if there is another conf as even as the SOCON. This past year was a little bit more separated between top and bottom, but looking at the last five years or so, it has been fairly even.

No doubt, I agree that SoCon was the most balanced for several years until this season. I thought they deserved at least 2 teams in the playoffs 2019 and 2021. Massey's ranking methodology is so flawed, I never consider it. Just a guess, but I suspect that the sweet-heart games the SoCon plays vs top SEC competition accounts for the comparison you are making. Mr Massey is not concerned about the accuracy of FCS ranking.

I like the SoCon and I think there was near parity between the top 6 CAA and top 5 SoCon teams in 2022.

[ElCid]

No doubt, I agree that SoCon was the most balanced for several years until this season. I thought they deserved at least 2 teams in the playoffs 2019 and 2021. Massey's ranking methodology is so flawed, I never consider it. Just a guess, but I suspect that the sweet-heart games the SoCon plays vs top SEC competition accounts for the comparison you are making. Mr Massey is not concerned about the accuracy of FCS ranking.

I like the SoCon and I think there was near parity between the top 6 CAA and top 5 SoCon teams in 2022.

Sounds reasonable. However, we had no SEC game this year. Or ACC game either. And Wofford had a bad ACC team. WCU had an eh, ACC team. But I get it. The SOCON has probably the best (hardest) FBS games, on average and that raises the rating usually a bit. But we also win the occasional ACC/SEC games as well. Scheduling is obviously mainly due to proximity and history.

I have studied Massey for a few years now and he is fairly good. Sure there are odd ball results, but if you look at his predicted vs actual, on average, he isn't bad. There are definite biases. I think, especially, past year results are weighted too much. At least in my opinion.

[OL FU]

Furman sucks.

Did you forget my suit case? I left it down stairs. I though you were going to bring it to my roomxeyebrowx

[ElonFirefighter]

Did you forget my suit case? I left it down stairs. I though you were going to bring it to my roomxeyebrowx

HAHA

32755
https://t1.thpservices.com/previewimage/gallil/748a974d8e62b4bb0424b51935673b3b/wr0865117.jpg

[caribbeanhen]

Sounds reasonable. However, we had no SEC game this year. Or ACC game either. And Wofford had a bad ACC team. WCU had an eh, ACC team. But I get it. The SOCON has probably the best (hardest) FBS games, on average and that raises the rating usually a bit. But we also win the occasional ACC/SEC games as well. Scheduling is obviously mainly due to proximity and history.

I have studied Massey for a few years now and he is fairly good. Sure there are odd ball results, but if you look at his predicted vs actual, on average, he isn't bad. There are definite biases. I think, especially, past year results are weighted too much. At least in my opinion.

Its not a popular opinion but I would agree with you on Massey….these guys act like he should nail every game

[ElCid]

Its not a popular opinion but I would agree with you on Massey….these guys act like he should nail every game

The big problem is he can't account for the portal, a new coach, the weather, a rivalry, injuries, momentum (good and bad), let down games, look ahead games, etc. If everything is somewhat stable and normal, he is not bad. Those things don't always have impacts, but they pop up for sure.

[Keeper]

No doubt, I agree that SoCon was the most balanced for several years until this season. I thought they deserved at least 2 teams in the playoffs 2019 and 2021. Massey's ranking methodology is so flawed, I never consider it. Just a guess, but I suspect that the sweet-heart games the SoCon plays vs top SEC competition accounts for the comparison you are making. Mr Massey is not concerned about the accuracy of FCS ranking.

I like the SoCon and I think there was near parity between the top 6 CAA and top 5 SoCon teams in 2022.

Mr. Kenneth Massey is an accomplished mathematician. He is solely concerned about accuracy of all ratings/rankings.
The primary challenge of ranking sports results is to do so accurately, entirely without bias, and with a basic set of data.
Within those parameters, every system has flaws depending of amount plus type of data. Eleven games is far from a comfortable sample.
I would also like to point out that this past season, Mr Massey's CFB math system was Number One for ALL Divison I games Against the Spread.
An accomplishment to be proud of.

[KPSUL]

Mr. Kenneth Massey is an accomplished mathematician. He is solely concerned about accuracy of all ratings/rankings.
The primary challenge of ranking sports results is to do so accurately, entirely without bias, and with a basic set of data.
Within those parameters, every system has flaws depending of amount plus type of data. Eleven games is far from a comfortable sample.
I would also like to point out that this past season, Mr Massey's CFB math system was Number One for ALL Divison I games Against the Spread.
An accomplishment to be proud of.

You don't mention the insular scheduling throughout the FCS, it's off the chart for the Ivy League. One FBS opponent a season is a sample size of one. Add two FCS OOC games and now you have a sample size of teams outside of your conference of 3. Almost all of the FBS and many OOC FCS games are deliberate mismatches made for one team to get a payday and the other a near sure thing W. The game time decisions in these games concerning play calling and which players are on the field for how long can be very skewed as well.

Mid-way and at the end of a season, I suspect that Mr Massey's algorithm could work quite well WITHIN a conference - if your sample universe was a single conference and you were picking games between conference mates. (Although, I seen seasons where AGS Pick-em participants beat the stat services) But that is NOT the purpose for which Massey is used for in the case discussed here, or almost everywhere else I've seen it used on AGS. Instead it is presented as proof when comparing conferences or cherry picking and comparing teams from separate conferences.

[ElCid]

Although, I seen seasons where AGS Pick-em participants beat the stat services.


Easily. I suspect this due to the factors I listed a couple posts back that the participants account for, but no algorithms does. And intuition.

But you made good points. Especially regarding conferences. Some conferences are highly insulated and boost their ratings in opportune OOC games that they either luck out in or fall apart in. If you dissect a teams schedule and watch their ratings as the season progresses, it is sometimes easy to see some flaws. Add in some "throw away the record" rivalry games and it can get real wonky.

And as you said, add in some, very nearly artificial, FBS/FCS "show games," and it can get skewed for sure. We've all seen it. But as I understand it, there are diminishing returns in the algorithms to account for blowout margins. The formulas are just basic, top level factors and end up producing average score predictions. In the end, it's data that is objective and merely one more data point to add to your bag of knowledge. At least for me it is.

[Keeper]

No doubt, I agree that SoCon was the most balanced for several years until this season. I thought they deserved at least 2 teams in the playoffs 2019 and 2021. Massey's ranking methodology is so flawed, I never consider it. Just a guess, but I suspect that the sweet-heart games the SoCon plays vs top SEC competition accounts for the comparison you are making. Mr Massey is not concerned about the accuracy of FCS ranking.

I like the SoCon and I think there was near parity between the top 6 CAA and top 5 SoCon teams in 2022.

You touched quite a nerve saying that "Mr Massey is not concerned about the accuracy of FCS ranking." Accuracy is his prime objective.
Kenneth is no less a football fan than you are, just know that bias or opinion are non factors in his work.
It is not fair to dismiss his work entirely, whilst others use his rankings as "proof". It is what it is. Your opinion is no more or less valued singly than any other individual source, but subjectivity amongst the whole spectrum of followers is the ultimate judge.
You may not consider Massey or other ranking systems valuable, but don't presume to think what his concerns are. xnonox

[KPSUL]

You touched quite a nerve saying that "Mr Massey is not concerned about the accuracy of FCS ranking." Accuracy is his prime objective.
Kenneth is no less a football fan than you are, just know that bias or opinion are non factors in his work.
It is not fair to dismiss his work entirely, whilst others use his rankings as "proof". It is what it is. Your opinion is no more or less valued singly than any other individual source, but subjectivity amongst the whole spectrum of followers is the ultimate judge.
You may not consider Massey or other ranking systems valuable, but don't presume to think what his concerns are. xnonox

I should have said that he was far more concerned with FBS accuracy - FCS is an after thought. Is there a Mr Massey actively involved? I suspect if his system was so reliable and accurate he'd keep it a secret and make a fortune gambling.

[FUBeAR]

I should have said that he was far more concerned with FBS accuracy - FCS is an after thought. Is there a Mr Massey actively involved? I suspect if his system was so reliable and accurate he'd keep it a secret and make a fortune gambling.https://www.cn.edu/people/kenneth-massey/

[caribbeanhen]

https://www.cn.edu/people/kenneth-massey/

i had imagined he was an old grizzled looking guy from the Sixties

We should send him his AGS pick em champ T shirt

[SU DOG]

Four tiny private? Hmm. Just trying to be accurate.

Private:
Wofford - yup small, 1800
Furman - yup small, 2600
Samford - yup small, 3600
Mercer - umm, not that small, 9k

Public:
VMI - 1700
The Citadel - 2800
UTC - 10-11k
WCU - 11-12k
ETSU - 14k
UNC Greensboro - 16K

The SOCON basically has 5 small schools and 5 larger schools. The balance comes from having 4 private, 4 public, and 2 specialty public.


UNA - 9k
EKU - 14k

Samford is nearing 6k if you include Grad students. Mercer has 4 campuses and has just under 5k undergraduate students (from 2021 statistics), so the 9k figure may be somewhat misleading.

[FUBeAR]

Mercer has 4 campuses and has just under 5k undergraduate students (from 2021 statistics), so the 9k figure may be somewhat misleading.
Everything you always wanted to know about Mercer University, but were afraid to ask (or have SU DOG tell you)…

Enrollment - Fall 2022
* Total — 8,926
* Undergraduate — 4,880 (from degrees awarded ratios (see below), we can extrapolate that approximately 3,000 of these are on the Macon campus)
* Graduate/Professional — 4,046
86% of students are residents of Georgia.
Students represent 41 states and 57 foreign countries.

Faculty and Staff
1,846

Financial Data
Endowment — $452,556,294
Property and Equipment Net — $404,923,926
FY 23 Budget — $296,694,437

2021–2022 Gifts and Grants
* Voluntary Support (gifts and grants from all sources) — $85,756,749.85
* Private Gifts — $26,216,470.92
* Total Number of Donors — 7,937
* Alumni Donors — 3,617

2022–2023 Macon Residential Undergraduate Costs


Undergraduate Tuition and Fees — $39,708
Average First-Year Room and Board — $14,046


Degrees Awarded in 2021–2022



Atlanta
Macon
Other
Total


Bachelor’s Degree
304
748
153
1,205


Post-baccalaureate Certificate
1
0
0
1


Master’s Degree
779
178
87
1044


Post-master Certificate
0
0
0
0


Ed.S.
21
0
19
40


D.Min.
9
0
0
9


D.N.P.
5
0
0
5


D.P.H.
120
0
0
120


D.P.T.
38
0
0
38


J.D.
0
119
0
119


M.D.
0
45
63
108


Ph.D. (Education)
12
1
0
13


Ph.D. (Nursing)
3
0
0
3


Ph.D. (Pharmacy)
5
0
0
5


Ph.D. (CoPA)
5
0
0
5


Psy.D.
10
0
0
10


Total
1,312
1,091
322
2,725

[caribbeanhen]

that’s Jekyll Island type money

2022–2023 Macon Residential Undergraduate Costs



Undergraduate Tuition and Fees — $39,708
Average First-Year Room and Board — $14,046

[NY Crusader 2010]

You don't mention the insular scheduling throughout the FCS, it's off the chart for the Ivy League. One FBS opponent a season is a sample size of one. Add two FCS OOC games and now you have a sample size of teams outside of your conference of 3. Almost all of the FBS and many OOC FCS games are deliberate mismatches made for one team to get a payday and the other a near sure thing W. The game time decisions in these games concerning play calling and which players are on the field for how long can be very skewed as well.

Mid-way and at the end of a season, I suspect that Mr Massey's algorithm could work quite well WITHIN a conference - if your sample universe was a single conference and you were picking games between conference mates. (Although, I seen seasons where AGS Pick-em participants beat the stat services) But that is NOT the purpose for which Massey is used for in the case discussed here, or almost everywhere else I've seen it used on AGS. Instead it is presented as proof when comparing conferences or cherry picking and comparing teams from separate conferences.

I find that the Ivy League always gets tabbed for "insular scheduling", as if there's no way we could possibly rank these teams comparatively to the rest of FCS. In fact, the Ivy League is the ONLY FCS conference where all of its teams play their whole OOC schedule against other FCS teams. Ivy v. DII and Ivy v. FBS games are very rare. The only real caveat is that they only play 10 games, which reduces the sample size compared to everyone else. And of course, no postseason, the results of which help polling services level the playing field as far as ratings go. But most years all 8 Ivy teams play 3 OOC against other FCS, which is probably more than average throughout the rest of FCS where FBS buy games, sub-DI opponents and 8-games conference schedules are more common.

[bonarae]

I find that the Ivy League always gets tabbed for "insular scheduling", as if there's no way we could possibly rank these teams comparatively to the rest of FCS. In fact, the Ivy League is the ONLY FCS conference where all of its teams play their whole OOC schedule against other FCS teams. Ivy v. DII and Ivy v. FBS games are very rare. The only real caveat is that they only play 10 games, which reduces the sample size compared to everyone else. And of course, no postseason, the results of which help polling services level the playing field as far as ratings go. But most years all 8 Ivy teams play 3 OOC against other FCS, which is probably more than average throughout the rest of FCS where FBS buy games, sub-DI opponents and 8-games conference schedules are more common.

xoutofrepx

I don't know what to say for the Ivies' scheduling now. They haven't really adapted well football-wise... xsighx

[NY Crusader 2010]

WRT to Ivy schedules, it would be more appropriate to replace the word "insular" with "boring".

IMO, the 11th game could add sufficient excitement and variety without having to sacrifice traditional rivalry games with Patriot and CAA opponents. But I'd rather see them add postseason play before an 11th regular season game. And I think that's the option the presidents would choose if they HAD to pick one.

[The Cats]

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.g513ZF96TmOpx6LFLB3aEgAAAA?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

[DawgNDuckfan]

What about getting the University of the South (aka Sewanee) to move up from D3?? the University of South has had a history with the SoCon as well as with the SEC

[NY Crusader 2010]

Or get Georgia Tech to move down from FBS. They also were a member of the Southern Conference at one point in time. Would be a great rival for Mercer.

[bonarae]

What about getting the University of the South (aka Sewanee) to move up from D3?? the University of South has had a history with the SoCon as well as with the SEC

Does Sewanee have an intriguing athletic history, akin to Johns Hopkins or UChicago? (UChicago had a rich Big Ten past but ended in controversy towards the start of WWII.)

[DawgNDuckfan]

Or get Georgia Tech to move down from FBS. They also were a member of the Southern Conference at one point in time. Would be a great rival for Mercer.

In the last 50 years of college football, only one, count it, one team has ever moved down to FCS, and that was a team without a conference, the University of Idaho. Georgia Tech is an AQ, and gets quite a bit of $$'s, definitely exceeding any FCS team or conference. In addition, the SoCon was rumored to be needing a private school, and the University of the South is private, Georgia Tech is public.
However, in that same span of time, one team has moved up from D3 to D1, St. Thomas.

[DawgNDuckfan]

Does Sewanee have an intriguing athletic history, akin to Johns Hopkins or UChicago? (UChicago had a rich Big Ten past but ended in controversy towards the start of WWII.)

Yes, Sewanee does have an intriguing athletic history. I want to say that they beat seven teams in seven days, or something like that, due to a scheduling quirk. They had a rivalry going with Vanderbilt, and were former members of the SoCon and the SEC. However, when they went to look for a new president, they found one that they really wanted, but he said that he would only take the job on one condition: drop athletics entirely!!! They did that, and regretted it!!! They have come back to D3, but I'm sure that they long to be where they once were.

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story/_/id/7001627/sec-expansion-conference-consider-sewanee-long-lost-founding-member

[Laker]

Does Sewanee have an intriguing athletic history, akin to Johns Hopkins or UChicago? (UChicago had a rich Big Ten past but ended in controversy towards the start of WWII.)

SEC founding member Sewanee wants Alabama in latest SEC Shorts (saturdaydownsouth.com) (https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/sec-founding-member-sewanee-wants-alabama-in-latest-sec-shorts/)

[NY Crusader 2010]

In the last 50 years of college football, only one, count it, one team has ever moved down to FCS, and that was a team without a conference, the University of Idaho. Georgia Tech is an AQ, and gets quite a bit of $$'s, definitely exceeding any FCS team or conference. In addition, the SoCon was rumored to be needing a private school, and the University of the South is private, Georgia Tech is public.
However, in that same span of time, one team has moved up from D3 to D1, St. Thomas.

1) Maybe Georgia Tech would make the move if the SoCon also invited LSU. I believe they were in that league as well at one point. Would give the SoCon an excuse to host it's MBB tourney in N'Awlins every once in a while.

2) St. Thomas did indeed make an unprecedented move, having it's entire athletic dept. make the jump from DIII to DI. Plenty of schools have made that same move (most not by choice) in football because of the "Dayton Rule". Up until the late 80's and early 1990's, Fordham, St. John's, Hofstra, Iona, Siena, Wagner, Dayton and others were playing DIII football.

[garland823]

1) Maybe Georgia Tech would make the move if the SoCon also invited LSU. I believe they were in that league as well at one point. Would give the SoCon an excuse to host it's MBB tourney in N'Awlins every once in a while.

The SEC and ACC were both formed by departing SoCon members, so you can play that game for a while.

[Milktruck74]

Yes, Sewanee does have an intriguing athletic history. I want to say that they beat seven teams in seven days, or something like that, due to a scheduling quirk. They had a rivalry going with Vanderbilt, and were former members of the SoCon and the SEC. However, when they went to look for a new president, they found one that they really wanted, but he said that he would only take the job on one condition: drop athletics entirely!!! They did that, and regretted it!!! They have come back to D3, but I'm sure that they long to be where they once were.

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story/_/id/7001627/sec-expansion-conference-consider-sewanee-long-lost-founding-member

Sewanee has the most dominant team in history...I think it was 1899. I think the combined score for the season was like 215-10...THe only player to score a TD on them that entire season was John Heisman... I'm going from memory, so I'm sure somebody will correct my numbers.

[JSUSoutherner]

Not sure how to link it, but Herder put out a tweet this week stating that conference leadership had basically walked back the FBS stuff, and that the league being able to move up had no standing. Seems like that was all posturing.

edit: it was Bryan Fischer of Fox Sports who reported this initially this week.
To be fair the ASUN to FBS had legitimate wheels until Kennesaw and Jax ajumped ship. The conferences put a lot of stock into our schools to lead that charge.

Oh well.

[The Cats]

To be fair the ASUN to FBS had legitimate wheels until Kennesaw and Jax ajumped ship. The conferences put a lot of stock into our schools to lead that charge.

Oh well.

That was a pipe dream, a big scam.

No way the ASun would/could become FBS, even if KSU & JSU had remained. Of all the hurdles required to make that move, every school had to be ready & able to move up financially at the same time, and that was not going to happen. KSU & JSU's departure is a for sure indication that the ASun moving up as a conference was pie in the sky, and both schools realized they needed to make the move individually. It gave a lot of people, a lot to talk about, and post about for the last few years, but was never going to happen.

[Libertine]

That was a pipe dream, a big scam.

No way the ASun would/could become FBS, even if KSU & JSU had remained. Of all the hurdles required to make that move, every school had to be ready & able to move up financially at the same time, and that was not going to happen. KSU & JSU's departure is a for sure indication that the ASun moving up as a conference was pie in the sky, and both schools realized they needed to make the move individually. It gave a lot of people, a lot to talk about, and post about for the last few years, but was never going to happen.

This. All of this. There was never going to be a world where you could get a sufficient number of FCS schools -- I don't care who they are -- to achieve the exact same level of FBS readiness within the same time frame and possessing not only sufficient political will to make the jump but also sufficient patience to wait for those other members who lagged behind. This idea was, at absolute best, a nonsensical pipe dream and most likely a cynical promotional/recruiting ploy on the part of Gumbert and Co, aka., as Cats put it, a scam.

[SU DOG]

JSU needs to find a way to go FBS and play Troy. A large portion on their fan base will never really be happy with anything less. The Troy vs JSU rivalry of yesteryear was terrific. The battle of the bands, the big crowds, and the excitement of this game was hard to believe unless you saw it for yourself. I did see it for myself, and it didn't seem to ever disappoint. I doubt that Troy is in favor of this renewal, but JSU needs for it to happen.

[Libertine]

JSU needs to find a way to go FBS...

I'm just gonna leave this here...


Jacksonville State Accepts Invitation To Join Conference USAFootball 11/5/2021 2:02:00 PM
JACKSONVILLE – Jacksonville State University has accepted an invitation to join Conference USA in all sports to start the 2023-24 academic year, the school and league office announced on Friday.


https://jsugamecocksports.com/news/2021/11/5/football-jacksonville-state-accepts-invitation-to-conference-usa.aspx

[SU DOG]

Don't misunderstand. That still leaves the question of whether or not the Troy rivalry can be renewed.

[JSUSoutherner]

Don't misunderstand. That still leaves the question of whether or not the Troy rivalry can be renewed.
Eventually. Maybe. It's not something either school is scrambling to get done.

We didn't go to FBS to play Troy.

[BigGreenTruck]

To be fair the ASUN to FBS had legitimate wheels until Kennesaw and Jax ajumped ship. The conferences put a lot of stock into our schools to lead that charge.

Oh well.

Yeah, this was never happening. The 10 FBS conferences would have never allowed another conference to come up and share the CFP money. Plus not one school is or was IA ready, not even Jacksonville State nor Sam Houston. One or both might eventually grow into a IA program in a few years but they will both take some big lumps at first. There have been very few that moved up that were IA ready, even Boise State's first 2 years were losing records.

[UNAPride]

To be fair the ASUN to FBS had legitimate wheels until Kennesaw and Jax ajumped ship. The conferences put a lot of stock into our schools to lead that charge.

Oh well.

Liberty was really driving the train with their money and lawyers. They convinced a lot of folks it would happen which is why JSU, UCA, EKU, and APSU moved to the ASUN.

Then, they flew the coop as soon as CUSA was imploding. Can't blame them.

But, I'm glad it happened. They were roping a lot of schools that aren't ready into the deal and I wasn't thrilled.

Liberty's football budget dwarfs the rest of the ASUN/WAC schools and even CUSA's. No, thanks.


https://youtu.be/7re7ZBC2PTY

[Libertine]

Liberty was really driving the train with their money and lawyers. They convinced a lot of folks it would happen which is why JSU, UCA, EKU, and APSU moved to the ASUN.

Then, they flew the coop as soon as CUSA was imploding. Can't blame them.[/video]

JSU, UCA, et al., jumped to the ASUN because they were unhappy with the OVC and, rightly or wrongly, believed that making that move was an improvement on their current circumstance. Y'all need to understand that there was never any real discussion of ASUN-->FBS because anyone with any understanding of what FBS reclassification actually requires -- which virtually every AD with a D1 football program has available to them -- knew that this was never going to happen, ever. Fans, click-baiters and others might have fanned the flames of the idea but this was never going to happen -- ever.

Incidentally, don't drag Liberty into this because they had nothing to do with it at all. Those ASUN-->FBS rumors only started up after Liberty had already announced they were leaving for C-USA.

[FUBeAR]

JSU, UCA, et al., jumped to the ASUN because they were unhappy with the OVC and, rightly or wrongly, believed that making that move was an improvement on their current circumstance. Y'all need to understand that there was never any real discussion of ASUN-->FBS because anyone with any understanding of what FBS reclassification actually requires -- which virtually every AD with a D1 football program has available to them -- knew that this was never going to happen, ever. Fans, click-baiters and others might have fanned the flames of the idea but this was never going to happen -- ever.

Incidentally, don't drag Liberty into this because they had nothing to do with it at all. Those ASUN-->FBS rumors only started up after Liberty had already announced they were leaving for C-USA.yep - that whole scam always had as much validity / relevance of FCS moving to Spring. Anyone with any sense knew it was just so much swinerinse.

…and what the heck does it have
to do with “SoCon Expansion” ?????

[MR. CHICKEN]

yep - that whole scam always had as much validity / relevance of FCS moving to Spring. Anyone with any sense knew it was just so much swinerinse.

…and what the heck does it have
to do with “SoCon Expansion” ?????


.....AAHHH!.....DUH TWISTS & TURNS...UH CONVERSATION...............AWK!

[Libertine]

yep - that whole scam always had as much validity / relevance of FCS moving to Spring. Anyone with any sense knew it was just so much swinerinse.

…and what the heck does it have
to do with “SoCon Expansion” ?????

Eh...it's AGS. After eight pages of posts, what does any thread have to do with it's original topic?

[Catamount87]

Getting back to SoCon expansion, will The Citadel ever expand the HS bleachers better known as the visitor's side? When they do, will we get a piss wall or will it be a piss trough?

[FUBeAR]

will we get a piss wall or will it be a piss trough?that’s the spirit! Way, way more compelling and significant than that WhACk-A-Sun foolishness

[katss07]

Yeah, this was never happening. The 10 FBS conferences would have never allowed another conference to come up and share the CFP money. Plus not one school is or was IA ready, not even Jacksonville State nor Sam Houston. One or both might eventually grow into a IA program in a few years but they will both take some big lumps at first. There have been very few that moved up that were IA ready, even Boise State's first 2 years were losing records.
Stop it. Jacksonville State is 1-A (?) ready and has been for probably a decade now.

[The Cats]

Stop it. Jacksonville State is 1-A (?) ready and has been for probably a decade now.

If my memory serves me correctly, 1-A became FBS, while 1-AA became FCS, I think you confusing that with both being Division I...

A lot of folk like to continue to use the "old" designations of 1-A and 1-AA

[katss07]

If my memory serves me correctly, 1-A became FBS, while 1-AA became FCS, I think you confusing that with both being Division I...

A lot of folk like to continue to use the "old" designations of 1-A and 1-AA
I know what he meant, just haven’t heard someone call it one a or one double a in a long time.

[ElCid]

Getting back to SoCon expansion, will The Citadel ever expand the HS bleachers better known as the visitor's side? When they do, will we get a piss wall or will it be a piss trough?

Well, funding is still being secured. Wish it could have happened quickly, but I think the virus impacted the timing as well. We can only speculate on the piss accomodations.

[FUBeAR]

We can only speculate on the piss accomodations.Is “…in the wind” on the list of options?

That phrase might, just maybe, also accurately characterize this 1/2-a-stadium fund raising project that is now more than 1/2-a-decade old. Are y’all waiting for all of us Bowels of the Visitors Side of Bellhop Stadium Lead Paint Survivors to die off before you build what will, effectively, become a memorial to our sacrifices?

[Libertine]

We can only speculate on the piss accomodations.

As a kid, Johnson Hagood was my first experience with the trough "system". I vividly remember my dad telling me, "If you happen to drop anything in there, just let it go."

[FUBeAR]

As a kid, Johnson Hagood was my first experience with the trough "system". I vividly remember my dad telling me, "If you happen to drop anything in there, just let it go."
You must’ve been on the Home side. Visitor’s side was troughless, unless you’re counting a shallow floor gutter as a “trough.” We Visitors had the piss wall … and abundant carcinogens.

[UNAPride]

JSU, UCA, et al., jumped to the ASUN because they were unhappy with the OVC and, rightly or wrongly, believed that making that move was an improvement on their current circumstance. Y'all need to understand that there was never any real discussion of ASUN-->FBS because anyone with any understanding of what FBS reclassification actually requires -- which virtually every AD with a D1 football program has available to them -- knew that this was never going to happen, ever. Fans, click-baiters and others might have fanned the flames of the idea but this was never going to happen -- ever.

Incidentally, don't drag Liberty into this because they had nothing to do with it at all. Those ASUN-->FBS rumors only started up after Liberty had already announced they were leaving for C-USA.

Absolute BS. Liberty and Jax State were announced to move to the C-USA at the same time.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/32560304/conference-usa-add-liberty-jacksonville-state-new-mexico-state-sam-houston-state-beginning-2023

And for Liberty's involvement in ASUN teams to FBS. Go to 31:39 for that part of the conversation.


https://youtu.be/HjNnzqBTudE?t=1899

[NY Crusader 2010]

Liberty had already gone FBS as an independent, but they had not yet been invited to a conference. They didn't receive an invite from any FBS conference until C-USA reached full desperation mode. They were invited at the same time as Sammy and Jacksonville State.

[Libertine]

...

And for Liberty's involvement in ASUN teams to FBS. Go to 31:39 for that part of the conversation.


https://youtu.be/HjNnzqBTudE?t=1899

This is exactly what I'm referring to when I mentioned click-baiters. I don't know who Jay and Keith are but that is absolute BS. People with zero knowledge of or contacts within the business of college athletics just look at LU's bank account and say, "Oh sure, they could pay for this" and the next guy goes, "I heard Liberty was willing to pay for this," and he tells another guy who throws it on a podcast because, hey, why not? One thing that I've learned over the last 20+ years of following FCS football is that there is precious little difference between national FCS media coverage and message board chatter. A guy with a blue check Twitter handle says, "This is the stuff I'm hearing" and y'all treat it like gospel. Well, guess where he "heard" it? From you guys.


As to specifics, the ASUN and Liberty both made it abundantly clear when the ASUN first announced their intention of adding football that those plans did not include Liberty. That never changed. There was no discussion between Liberty and the ASUN about joining for football. In fact, there was no official discussion at the conference level about the ASUN going FBS at all. Further, Liberty never had any reason to found, much less drop $20 million to fund, an FBS ASUN. Seriously, who in the world would think that to be a good capital investment? Until the moment that the Sun Belt consolidated a significant chunk of the G5 scheduling pool virtually overnight, Liberty was perfectly content to remain an FBS Indy until a good conference opportunity came along. No one would describe the current C-USA as ideal but, internally, the ASUN never even came up as a topic.

[UNAPride]

This is exactly what I'm referring to when I mentioned click-baiters. I don't know who Jay and Keith are but that is absolute BS.


LOL. They are ETSU/SoCon podcasters. This episode was with Matt Brown. Their other episodes on the topic have included interviews with the ETSU AD and a former ASUN Asst. Commissioner. You should listen, you may learn something and realize that much this was coordinated by Liberty.

[Catamount87]

You must’ve been on the Home side. Visitor’s side was troughless, unless you’re counting a shallow floor gutter as a “trough.” We Visitors had the piss wall … and abundant carcinogens.

FUBeAR, what about the visitor's locker room or was it just piss poor in general?

[kdinva]

FUBeAR, what about the visitor's locker room or was it just piss poor in general?

I went to the 1993 VMI/The Citadel game (Tommy Haskins' breakout game; 238 yards, 3 TDs). Visitor's room was, to the best of my memory, maybe 700 sq. feet with 3 working shower heads

[FUBeAR]

FUBeAR, what about the visitor's locker room or was it just piss poor in general?
I went to the 1993 VMI/The Citadel game (Tommy Haskins' breakout game; 238 yards, 3 TDs). Visitor's room was, to the best of my memory, maybe 700 sq. feet with 3 working shower heads
Before the bellhops’ half-a-stadium-death-tomb was condemned and removed by crews in full HazMat suits, the small closet under those stands that had been the Visitors “Locker Room” had been converted to storage for the grass seed & fertilizer bags for the field. 700 feet seems very generous. Perhaps it was 500 Sq Ft of dressing area and 200 Sq Ft of showers/toilets (2 perhaps -‘open-air’) - but seemed like much less. We had to split the Team into small units to really just get changed from our skivvies into our Football Game pants in that closet and then to shower in shifts post-game. All other pre-game dressing was done outside the closet on the grass abutting the gate/path where the battalion of bellhops marched into the stadium with their jaws wildly a-flappin’ at us.

It was HORRIBLE!
It was WONDERFUL! - FUBeAR wishes he could be transported back to one of those pre-game sessions right now…or anytime. Pure FUN!!!!

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yeah, this was never happening. The 10 FBS conferences would have never allowed another conference to come up and share the CFP money. Plus not one school is or was IA ready, not even Jacksonville State nor Sam Houston. One or both might eventually grow into a IA program in a few years but they will both take some big lumps at first. There have been very few that moved up that were IA ready, even Boise State's first 2 years were losing records.

Definitely a crapshoot moving up. Marshall, App State, Coastal and JMU (at least right now) were all very successful right away. Old Dominion definitely took some lumps but seems to have found their way to some extent after 7 or 8 years. I don't remember Georgia Southern's first year or two in FBS (their last in FCS was meh) but it didn't take them long to start winning. Georgia State has been better in FBS than they ever were in FCS. Central Florida took a little while to find their way before ultimately becoming the 1st program to go from FCS to P5. UMASS and Idaho were both strong but not dominant I-AA programs that just never got their feet under them.

[SU DOG]

Before the bellhops’ half-a-stadium-death-tomb was condemned and removed by crews in full HazMat suits, the small closet under those stands that had been the Visitors “Locker Room” had been converted to storage for the grass seed & fertilizer bags for the field. 700 feet seems very generous. Perhaps it was 500 Sq Ft of dressing area and 200 Sq Ft of showers/toilets (2 perhaps -‘open-air’) - but seemed like much less. We had to split the Team into small units to really just get changed from our skivvies into our Football Game pants in that closet and then to shower in shifts post-game. All other pre-game dressing was done outside the closet on the grass abutting the gate/path where the battalion of bellhops marched into the stadium with their jaws wildly a-flappin’ at us.

It was HORRIBLE!
It was WONDERFUL! - FUBeAR wishes he could be transported back to one of those pre-game sessions right now…or anytime. Pure FUN!!!!

Lots of us on here wish you could be transported back - ANYWHERE!

[JSUSoutherner]

yep - that whole scam always had as much validity / relevance of FCS moving to Spring. Anyone with any sense knew it was just so much swinerinse.

…and what the heck does it have
to do with “SoCon Expansion” ?????
The way I see it, regardless of ASUNs FBS aspirations of the past, the reality now is you have several southern based conferences with little to no stability and those schools will be looking for homes. Whether that includes a SoCon expansion is TBD. I don't really know if the SoCon would be interested. I doubt it personally. But the whole idea of this thread stems from the instability in the conferences generated by the ASUN shuffling around.

So that's your connection to the topic.


Plus not one school is or was IA ready, not even Jacksonville State Lol

[FUBeAR]

Lots of us on here wish you could be transported back - ANYWHERE!
Well then…here’s a possible destination

https://www.cityofhomewood.com/

…very nearly fits within that “ANYWHERE!” criterion.

[SU DOG]

All in good fun of course. Will you be in Homewood on Oct. 14? Would love to meet you if so.

[BigGreenTruck]

[/B]Definitely a crapshoot moving up. Marshall, App State, Coastal and JMU (at least right now) were all very successful right away. Old Dominion definitely took some lumps but seems to have found their way to some extent after 7 or 8 years. I don't remember Georgia Southern's first year or two in FBS (their last in FCS was meh) but it didn't take them long to start winning. Georgia State has been better in FBS than they ever were in FCS. Central Florida took a little while to find their way before ultimately becoming the 1st program to go from FCS to P5. UMASS and Idaho were both strong but not dominant I-AA programs that just never got their feet under them.

Even Coastal went 3-9, 5-7 and 5-7 their first 3 years. I would say there have been 4 schools move up that was actually IA ready.

1997 Marshall- 10-3, Won the MAC with a 7-1 conference record. Losses to WVU. Miami OH and Ole Miss (Motor City Bowl)
2014 Georgia Southern- 9-3, Won the Sun Belt with an 8-0 record. Losses to NC State, GA Tech and Navy
2014 App State 7-5, 3rd in the Sun Belt with a 6-2 record. Losses to Michigan, Southern Miss GA Southern, South Alabama and Liberty. Started the season 1-5 and ended on a 7-0 run
2022 James Madison- 8-3, 3rd in the Sun Belt East with a 6-2 record. Losses to GA Southern, Marshall and Louisville

No bowl games for GA Southern, App State or JMU because of the Marshall Rule.

Even if you aren't exactly ready it doesn't mean you can't grow into a decent IA school. Boise, Nevada, Arkansas State and Coastal have all done it. And it looks like GA State is finally getting their feet under them. Also I mean no disrespect when I say that you aren't ready immediately. It just means you are deficient in probably 3 or more aspects of moving up. And the biggest would be the depth of your team. No matter how good you are there are going to be parts of your starters that would be no more than 2nd or 3rd string on most other schools. And the biggest issue is when you look at the OL/DL, there is usually a massive difference there.

[ElCid]

Is it just me, or is everyone equating "ready" with instant success? The two are not necessarily the same. A school could be ready and still not have a great record. If what everyone means is successful, then say that, not that they were "ready." I don't know the dirty details of each moving up school's financial and cultural situation, and their administration and fan support. But looking in from the outside on a few, I'm sure there were some just going through the motions. Because they thought they just needed to move as soon as possible for whatever reasons. Others appeared "ready" and were doing all the right things, good record or not.

It's just my opinion, but probably half of those who moved up were either unwarranted, still, or were at least premature. I think for those who were ready, they were patient and stuck to their long term plans. Like GA So, App St, JMU as examples. I think everyone watching knew 20+ years ago that those schools were all building support, carefully and patiently, in order to eventually move up. Those who did it entirely too quickly, like GA St or ODU as examples, did it for specific timing and publicity reasons and were obvious not necessarily ready on all levels and it was simply forced in hopes of being able to hop on the bandwagon. In those latter cases it was more of a "we have to do this to be seen so we can compete with other schools." That is very rarely a good idea. Not saying it doesn't work in some respects. I didn't even know that Ga St even existed before they started football. And I lived in GA! LOL. They could have been a community college for all I knew.

[JSUSoutherner]

Is it just me, or is everyone equating "ready" with instant success? The two are not necessarily the same. A school could be ready and still not have a great record. If what everyone means is successful, then say that, not that they were "ready." I don't know the dirty details of each moving up school's financial and cultural situation, and their administration and fan support. But looking in from the outside on a few, I'm sure there were some just going through the motions. Because they thought they just needed to move as soon as possible for whatever reasons. Others appeared "ready" and were doing all the right things, good record or not.

It's just my opinion, but probably half of those who moved up were either unwarranted, still, or were at least premature. I think for those who were ready, they were patient and stuck to their long term plans. Like GA So, App St, JMU as examples. I think everyone watching knew 20+ years ago that those schools were all building support, carefully and patiently, in order to eventually move up. Those who did it entirely too quickly, like GA St or ODU as examples, did it for specific timing and publicity reasons and were obvious not necessarily ready on all levels and it was simply forced in hopes of being able to hop on the bandwagon. In those latter cases it was more of a "we have to do this to be seen so we can compete with other schools." That is very rarely a good idea. Not saying it doesn't work in some respects. I didn't even know that Ga St even existed before they started football. And I lived in GA! LOL. They could have been a community college for all I knew.
Instant success is not my measure for JSU this year. If we finish above .500 that'd be pretty cool, but what I'm looking for, and what I think most programs should be basing their success on, is year over year improvement. Thats what Coastal had.

I've said for years, I'd rather watch a team that plays hard and improves every week rather than one that wins out of the gate, stagnates, and gets trashed when it matters. It's why I loathed Grass's Teams even though his win % was nuts.

I view JSU in the category of App, GA So, and JMU regarding the move. We don't have the FCS title they do, but we've spent the last few years upgrading facilities and getting things behind the scenes ready to compete at an FBS level. The CUSA opportunity to an outsider might look like something JSU jumped at head first with little consideration. Considering we got the invite on a Friday out of basically nowhere and had accepted by Monday, but the fact of the matter is we've been prepping for the move for the better part of a decade and that allowed us to take the opportunity with little hesitantion. The homework had already been done.

Will it equate to us being 9-3 next year? Probably not. But it will put our athletics in a position to continue improving and our brand to grow.

[caribbeanhen]

Before the bellhops’ half-a-stadium-death-tomb was condemned and removed by crews in full HazMat suits, the small closet under those stands that had been the Visitors “Locker Room” had been converted to storage for the grass seed & fertilizer bags for the field. 700 feet seems very generous. Perhaps it was 500 Sq Ft of dressing area and 200 Sq Ft of showers/toilets (2 perhaps -‘open-air’) - but seemed like much less. We had to split the Team into small units to really just get changed from our skivvies into our Football Game pants in that closet and then to shower in shifts post-game. All other pre-game dressing was done outside the closet on the grass abutting the gate/path where the battalion of bellhops marched into the stadium with their jaws wildly a-flappin’ at us.

It was HORRIBLE!
It was WONDERFUL! - FUBeAR wishes he could be transported back to one of those pre-game sessions right now…or anytime. Pure FUN!!!!

I feel the same way about crews berthing where 60 enlisted where crammed into about 100 sq foot berthing area for a 6 month all expenses paid journey to Antarctica and back, played football on an ice flow encircled by Killer Whales and survived long enough to be crushed against the Larsen Ice shelf where I saw a few grown men cry…

it was horrible
it was wonderful

would love to do it all again

[UNAPride]

Little birdies continue to chirp...

[UNHWildcat18]

Little birdies continue to chirp...

I really don't see what UNA has to offer the Socon... xconfusedx

[FUBeAR]

I really don't see what UNA has to offer the Socon... xconfusedx
Increasing UNAPride’s post count seems to be the only benefit of these ‘persistent rumors.’

[Milktruck74]

Instant success is not my measure for JSU this year. If we finish above .500 that'd be pretty cool, but what I'm looking for, and what I think most programs should be basing their success on, is year over year improvement. Thats what Coastal had.

I've said for years, I'd rather watch a team that plays hard and improves every week rather than one that wins out of the gate, stagnates, and gets trashed when it matters. It's why I loathed Grass's Teams even though his win % was nuts.

I view JSU in the category of App, GA So, and JMU regarding the move. We don't have the FCS title they do, but we've spent the last few years upgrading facilities and getting things behind the scenes ready to compete at an FBS level. The CUSA opportunity to an outsider might look like something JSU jumped at head first with little consideration. Considering we got the invite on a Friday out of basically nowhere and had accepted by Monday, but the fact of the matter is we've been prepping for the move for the better part of a decade and that allowed us to take the opportunity with little hesitantion. The homework had already been done.

Will it equate to us being 9-3 next year? Probably not. But it will put our athletics in a position to continue improving and our brand to grow.

I can almost assure you the CUSA opportunity was not "jumped on head first with little consideration" I assure you that EVERY FCS AD and University President (and probably many high level donors) have had the conversation "What If?" and the plan is in place. I'm sure they had a decision on CUSA long before CUSA called. And that decision was long thought out and EVERY aspect of the move was considered. It is just the outward appearance of the decision being last minute...but not the actual decision.

[Milktruck74]

Little birdies continue to chirp...

First, tUNA would be a pretty good financial addition for Chattanooga, especially if it was a replacement for VMI or Citadel. (Calm Down ElCid and KDINVA), Not that I want to lose either of them from a fan perspective, that is just a travel distance thing and it really only is good for Chattanooga, and not the rest of the conference. There are also a pretty good amount of tUNA grads in a 100 mile radius of UTC and it would be good for away crowds. Aside from the Benefit to Chattanooga, I think the only benefit for the entire conference is if tUna were to replace the only non-football school in the conference and I'm not sure there really is much benefit there.

So, that said....When those rumors are coming from a single source they are unreliable. Once those rumors start coming from insiders at SoCon Schools, it has legs!!! Until then it is merely a pipe dream...and a pipe dream of you and you alone.

[SU DOG]

I think it would also be a good move for Samford to have UNA in the conference. Instate opponent and not a bad travel game. Watch out before you say they would bring nothing to the SoCon. IMO, this is a growing school with a world of potential. I would love to see them in.

[Milktruck74]

Maybe so, but this conference has always been driven by the smaller privates with higher academic requirements.... tUNA is a public school with a goal of expanding to 10,000 students..which will ultimately reduce their already "very public school" academic requirements. I don't see them being a target of choice for the drivers of the SoCon.

And don't destroy me for the comment about public school academics, My Undergrad is from a public school and I'm very proud of it!

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe so, but this conference has always been driven by the smaller privates with higher academic requirements.... tUNA is a public school with a goal of expanding to 10,000 students..which will ultimately reduce their already "very public school" academic requirements. I don't see them being a target of choice for the drivers of the SoCon.

And don't destroy me for the comment about public school academics, My Undergrad is from a public school and I'm very proud of it!

[SU DOG]

The "drivers of the SoCon" might need to check their routes for the future. I don't know to what extent our large publics are unsatisfied, but I hear lots of fans from them, including UTC, that think the conference is too driven by the small privates. I also know the exit fee is enormous and it would require a huge investment to depart. I'm not smart enough to know what is best for the SoCon, but I think that all expansion options, public school or private, need to be carefully evaluated.

[Milktruck74]

The "drivers of the SoCon" might need to check their routes for the future. I don't know to what extent our large publics are unsatisfied, but I hear lots of fans from them, including UTC, that think the conference is too driven by the small privates. I also know the exit fee is enormous and it would require a huge investment to depart. I'm not smart enough to know what is best for the SoCon, but I think that all expansion options, public school or private, need to be carefully evaluated.

Not disagreeing with you, but I do think there are plenty of politics involved in all decisions....and some people caucus with those that are most like them...ie the privates (including the military schools) have the majority, and some of those privates tend to carry more weight than others. And it doesn't appear that those with pull are looking for schools like Tuna....kinda like it doesn't matter how hot madison Riley is if you aren't into blondes.

[FUBeAR]

New SoCon Commissioner search underway & nearing completion, FUBeAR was recently told (last month) by current, retiring SoCon Commissioner and by FU’s AD (this week). FU’s Prez is leading the Search Committee, btw.

Ain’t no major decision, such as expansion, gonna be made until new Commish is on board, settled in, and had an opportunity to meet 1-on-1 with each of his/her/their constituents (SoCon Members’ Presidents & AD’s).

FUBeAR would expect the new Commish’s start date would be 7/1/23 to align with the 1st day of the SoCon’s fiscal year. Thus, wouldn’t expect any major decisions, such as expansion, to even be considered until after the 2023 Fall Term, if at all.

[UNAPride]

Y'all are so easily triggered! LOL.

I love UNA in the ASUN but none of us are the decision-makers. The major benefit for UNA in the SoCon would be the closer geographic footprint for all sports. Otherwise, I enjoy the ASUN. We're just five years into it and finally making some solid rivalries. A move to another conference wouldn't likely excite many Lions fans.

[UNAPride]

Increasing UNAPride’s post count seems to be the only benefit of these ‘persistent rumors.’

LMAO. I don't post here often. No need to pad any stats. We have our own message board and I'm more of a CSNbbs poster.

[caribbeanhen]

I should have said that he was far more concerned with FBS accuracy - FCS is an after thought. Is there a Mr Massey actively involved? I suspect if his system was so reliable and accurate he'd keep it a secret and make a fortune gambling.

does the math really care if the team is FBS or FCS?

C’mon man

[Reign of Terrier]

I should have said that he was far more concerned with FBS accuracy - FCS is an after thought. Is there a Mr Massey actively involved? I suspect if his system was so reliable and accurate he'd keep it a secret and make a fortune gambling.

This is an argument I had not considered and agree with.


Samford is nearing 6k if you include Grad students. Mercer has 4 campuses and has just under 5k undergraduate students (from 2021 statistics), so the 9k figure may be somewhat misleading.

As a sidenote - and this isn't a rumor - just a hunch, Wofford will probably go in the direction that Samford, Furman, and Mercer have done (my guess, with our next strategic plan, going into the next generation, which may not be released for another 3-5 years) by adding more grad students. I realized upon re-reading this thread, that a lot of the enrollment differences between these smaller schools and Wofford is a grad school. Grad schools are huge money printers for a lot of schools, and great opportunities for athletes to use a 5th year, and I think Wofford is slowly warming up to the idea, if anything to keep undergraduate tuition a little more stable.

Again, this is a hunch, based off of conversations I had at an alumni focus group I attended, not a rumor or anything. In the context of FCS and Socon football, I don't think the public/private or small/large dynamic is as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I think a lot of the private schools (other than maybe the military ones?) do a lot of things, both to be competitive but also to provide amenities to their athletes, that 3 decades ago an onlooker would see as "public."

Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if all this public/non-public subtweeting was people talking **** about Wofford's AD, who is stuck in the year 1997.


First, tUNA would be a pretty good financial addition for Chattanooga, especially if it was a replacement for VMI or Citadel. (Calm Down ElCid and KDINVA), Not that I want to lose either of them from a fan perspective, that is just a travel distance thing and it really only is good for Chattanooga, and not the rest of the conference. There are also a pretty good amount of tUNA grads in a 100 mile radius of UTC and it would be good for away crowds. Aside from the Benefit to Chattanooga, I think the only benefit for the entire conference is if tUna were to replace the only non-football school in the conference and I'm not sure there really is much benefit there.

So, that said....When those rumors are coming from a single source they are unreliable. Once those rumors start coming from insiders at SoCon Schools, it has legs!!! Until then it is merely a pipe dream...and a pipe dream of you and you alone.

This is pretty much it. At the end of the day, money is what will make these decisions, and what drives the money at this level will be travel costs and revenue generated by winning in the NCAA tournament in basketball. There's probably another dimension of "stability" that's hard to measure, but having that huge exit fee on top of the revenue generation potential in the NCAA tourney makes leaving really costly and joining very attractive if you're a program that doesn't have FBS ambitions.

[WestCoastAggie]

IMHO, the SoCon should've invited A&T, Elon (again), Hampton and/or Campbell.

[Tribe4SF]

IMHO, the SoCon should've invited A&T, Elon (again), Hampton and/or Campbell.

CAA is more nimble, and more attractive.

[FUBeAR]

CAA is more nimble, and more attractive.
…and doesn’t sweat much for a fat girl

[The Cats]

CAA is more nimble, and more attractive.

Certainly more willing to take chances, and push the envelope. I'd like to see the SoCon add a couple basketball schools (that are not CoC or Elon) that would improve the roundball stature of the conference. Basketball is where the money is at for the SoCon and other FCS conference... As much as we like to think the SoCon is a football conference, at the FCS level, it's only a money pit...

[Reign of Terrier]

IMHO, the SoCon should've invited A&T, Elon (again), Hampton and/or Campbell.


CAA is more nimble, and more attractive.


Certainly more willing to take chances, and push the envelope. I'd like to see the SoCon add a couple basketball schools (that are not CoC or Elon) that would improve the roundball stature of the conference. Basketball is where the money is at for the SoCon and other FCS conference... As much as we like to think the SoCon is a football conference, at the FCS level, it's only a money pit...

People have to understand that conference affiliation at this level is mainly driven by 1) cost cutting with travel and 2) maximizing revenue with possible NCAA basketball revenue. It's not about creating the best football conference. The reason why the CAA invited all the teams they invited is because their current set up was a little unruly and costly for many southern CAA schools. There are some HBCU schools with FBS ambitions (NC A&T is one of them, I'd imagine) and there are some that just wanted to get away from the MEAC (there's some tomfoolery with HBCUs and money and administration - don't ask me what they are though)

The CAA inviting so many teams to their conference had more to do with cost-cutting for travel expense than anything. The theory of "expand your conference to get a good media deal" was pretty much falsified when CUSA tried it and failed, so it's doubly less effective at the FCS level (especially with ESPN+ and streaming displacing regional sports networks)

I would have loved to see the Socon invite some of the aforementioned schools to boost football for playoff consideration (I don't think any of the aforementioned teams would finish top 4 tbh and some would have been good fodder to pad resumes), but that was never going to happen.

The good news is that, long-term, there doesn't seem to be a remaining program in either the Socon or CAA that has the means or ability or opportunity to move up any time soon, and I think that will create the stability everyone wants. It could work out for the CAA, but it's still more of a gamble, and if it doesn't create results on the field, I imagine future realignments are possible.

[SU DOG]

What has been stated about the NCAA Basketball Tournament money is true. I hope someone will explain how this money is paid out to conference members when a team makes and wins in the tourney. I can remember Samford getting a nice check for years after the Curry led Davidson Team advanced as far as they did. I assume that a lesser amount is forthcoming from Furman's accomplishment this past season. My question is what about conferences that add so many members like the CAA has. Do their schools get far less money than SoCon schools for tourney play? I have no idea what the SoCon's (or any other conference) formula is when they divide up this revenue, but I know it has been distributed in the past. Hope somebody can enlighten on this matter.

[FUBeAR]

What has been stated about the NCAA Basketball Tournament money is true. I hope someone will explain how this money is paid out to conference members when a team makes and wins in the tourney. I can remember Samford getting a nice check for years after the Curry led Davidson Team advanced as far as they did. I assume that a lesser amount is forthcoming from Furman's accomplishment this past season. My question is what about conferences that add so many members like the CAA has. Do their schools get far less money than SoCon schools for tourney play? I have no idea what the SoCon's (or any other conference) formula is when they divide up this revenue, but I know it has been distributed in the past. Hope somebody can enlighten on this matter.
FUBeAR is no expert, but Google is his friend...here's what the GoogleMachine just told him...

Furman earned the SoCon $4 million in the NCAA Tourney in 2023.
That $4 million is paid out over 6 years - $666,666.67 / year.

Furman gets a double-share, FUBeAR has been told - now this could be double-share only in Year 1 or it could be over the entire 6 years. Think it's the latter.

So...we divide the payout into 11 shares... $60,606.06 for the other 9 schools and $121,212.12 for FU per year over those 6 years.

Usually the SoCon gets 1 bid and loses in Round 1....so that means 1 unit ... which varies...but let's just say that amounts to $2m / year.... so for the non-participants...they are getting.... typically....$30,303.03 x 6 (cuz it's layered)...so, this year's payment includes payouts going back to 2018....So, $181.818.18 / year per SoCon non-participant. Be the winning Team, win more tournament games and it goes up.

FUBeAR sees it being about 1/2 of what an FBS 'money' football game is / year.

But - FUBeAR could be completely wrong about all of this. Anyone got any better cipherin' .... bring it!

[SU DOG]

I think FUBeAR is spot on from what I have heard about the Samford cut. Thanks for that info. Now that is a sizeable chunk of money which brings me back to thinking that it is an advantage for schools in a conference like the SoCon as opposed to one with many more teams. Also, in light of P5(P4) statements that there might be fewer football games vs FCS would this money be enough to discourage or at least be a consideration in expansion talks? Just wondering.

[caribbeanhen]

I preface my question with the following

CH was recently asked about CAA hoops teams and replied

Marilyn, Clemson, Wake Forest, Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State, and new addition Georgia Tech

so my question is, is Bryant any good in hoops?

footnote: CH has also posted in third person on here over the years but gave it up mostly because the college boys beat me up so much about it…. I’m glad FuBeaR has not backed down !!!

[DawgNDuckfan]

Another option to consider besides UNA, Bellarmine, CofC, Richmond,W&M,etc.

What about Stetson & North Florida? Keeps the private/public balance, and gives the SoCon some outposts in the State of Florida, where the SoCon currently has no/zero presence.(think new markets)
Wofford & Bellarmine would both be good basketball add; UNA a good football add. If Tennessee Tech gets their act together, maybe they could be a future addition.

[UNHWildcat18]

Another option to consider besides UNA, Bellarmine, CofC, Richmond,W&M,etc.

What about Stetson & North Florida? Keeps the private/public balance, and gives the SoCon some outposts in the State of Florida, where the SoCon currently has no/zero presence.(think new markets)
Wofford & Bellarmine would both be good basketball add; UNA a good football add. If Tennessee Tech gets their act together, maybe they could be a future addition.

Wouldn't be surprised if UNF makes the jump. Would be a good addition IMHO... If the socon wanted it.

[The Cats]

I don't think the SoCon would want to expand it's footprint large enough to take in FL schools (just my opinion). I also think with the CAA movement southward, the SoCon lost out on the opportunity for several teams in the current conference footprint, as well as any opportunity to lure back W&M, Richmond, etc. We will have to see how 16 football members work out for them...

[Reign of Terrier]

Another option to consider besides UNA, Bellarmine, CofC, Richmond,W&M,etc.

What about Stetson & North Florida? Keeps the private/public balance, and gives the SoCon some outposts in the State of Florida, where the SoCon currently has no/zero presence.(think new markets)
Wofford & Bellarmine would both be good basketball add; UNA a good football add. If Tennessee Tech gets their act together, maybe they could be a future addition.

I have no inside info but if I were to guess the teams most likely to get an invite and take it, North Florida and North Alabama would be at the top. The CAA teams you listed are definitely desired by the Socon, but that ship has sailed.

[SU DOG]

If a public is to be considered, I have one in mind that I don't think has been mentioned. Problem is that they are DII, and I don't know if a move up is on their radar or not. That school is West Georgia, and their facilities are already in place. Their 10,000-seat stadium and just under 6,000 seat coliseum look completely adequate for D-1 competition at the FCS level. TBH it is their location that really appeals to me. IMO, this would give what I call the "western schools" of the SoCon (Samford, UTC, Mercer) a relatively easy travel opponent. Even schools like Furman and Wofford wouldn't have a hard time with that trip. Another perhaps extraneous factor is that many SoCon schools have a fairly large alumni base in nearby Atlanta.

[mvfcfan]

I always thought the SOCON should've expanded with Jacksonville State, but it's too late for that now. Charleston and UNCW would be good adds for basketball, but obviously neither has football (like UNCG). Kennesaw State was starting to look like an expansion candidate and then they also left FCS.

Personally I think the Socon is in a great spot with great members. They approved a $2M exit fee recently. 10 BB / 9 FB is also perfect for scheduling.

[ElCid]

I always thought the SOCON should've expanded with Jacksonville State, but it's too late for that now. Charleston and UNCW would be good adds for basketball, but obviously neither has football (like UNCG). Kennesaw State was starting to look like an expansion candidate and then they also left FCS.

Personally I think the Socon is in a great spot with great members. They approved a $2M exit fee recently. 10 BB / 9 FB is also perfect for scheduling.

Yup. We can afford to be choosey. Adding someone just because it's seems like the latest trend is a bad idea. Adding the football teams mentioned above would have been a bad idea is retrospect. We don't need teams doing touch and go's. Campbell probably would have been acceptable, but it would have needed a public partner that was lacking. We will see if the move by Charleston leaving the SOCON pays off for them over time, or if it was a mistake.

[The Cats]

Yup. We can afford to be choosey. Adding someone just because it's seems like the latest trend is a bad idea. Adding the football teams mentioned above would have been a bad idea is retrospect. We don't need teams doing touch and go's. Campbell probably would have been acceptable, but it would have needed a public partner that was lacking. We will see if the move by Charleston leaving the SOCON pays off for them over time, or if it was a mistake.

They have the right coach now, Kelsey would make then successful in either league. They have their eyes set on following Davidson to the A10.

[Reign of Terrier]

The thing with Charleston, is that they are going all-in for NIL and paying their basketball players a lot.

The difference between the Socon and other FCS/mid-major conferences out east is probably the institutional commitment to football alongside the success in basketball. The high exit fee really guarantees that the only way current members are leaving the Socon is to go FBS in football. The only way I could see someone doing something different is if a team like VMI or the Citadel deciding finding better opportunities to win consistently is better than the money opportunities (I'm not roasting those teams, just pointing out the clear disadvantage they have). The only other way is if our basketball as a conference completely and utterly tanked in a manner that made is a bottom-feeder conference, and I just don't see that happening.

There's a lot of conspiracy theories about the private schools not caring or whatever (or at least it comes up when we don't do ambitious things or if a private team like Wofford starts sucking in one of the two major sports). I think that's a bunch of hot air just because of the pro-social opportunities that come with having 63 scholarships for athletics, the branding opportunities with being good at a sport, and the low costs of those things, given the optimal value. Even with VMI and the Citadel, even if they're not winning, having something of an underdog brand in the conference and occasionally pulling some upsets or beating good teams, or being in position to beating good teams, creates value for them within their own unique institutional values.

Long story short, it's hard to chase money at this level, and the socon post-App/GSU has basically positioned itself to the best money situation it can be. The only way it gets better is if basketball gets even better. And that's not outside the realm of possibility either (though that will be just as difficult as getting the socon to its current leve)

[OrangeAndBlack]

in 2024 it will be 10 years since the SoCon has added/dropped full members. I love that level of stability and this is an amazing group of FCS schools. Has any other D1 league been that stable?

[MR. CHICKEN]

in 2024 it will be 10 years since the SoCon has added/dropped full members. I love that level of stability and this is an amazing group of FCS schools. Has any other D1 league been that stable?

PATRIOT
IVY

[OrangeAndBlack]

PATRIOT
IVY

Ah ya, the world will end before the Ivy League adds a member.

Respect to the Patriot League xthumbsupx

[FUBeAR]

Ah ya, the world will end before the Ivy League adds a member.

Respect to the Patriot League xthumbsupx
O&B - SoCon is not all that stable. We just updated our logo, y’know. Need to update your signature when you are comfortable making that kind of change…

https://soconsports.com/images/2023/8/9/website_logo_photo.jpg

[Reign of Terrier]

I think at the FCS level (and maybe even below it), having 10 years + of continuity is a good sign that all members are on the same page for what the conference stands for. On the top.

Part of me wants to say that the 2000s and the 90s were more stable, but the 2000s were pretty volatile, with Elon and Samford being added, VMI and ETSU leaving (and eventually coming back).

Though there may be some schools that imply they'd love to go FBS (Chattanooga has signaled that in the past, and from what I can tell ETSU's fans would love it), I don't think those programs are really at the point competitively (or financially if you're a potential FBS conference) to do that. I'd be very surprised if anything happened before 2030. A lot would have to happen on and off the field, specifically with the NCAA tournament. But even then, I just don't see a better opportunity for any current school to make more $$$ in another mid-major conference, especially with the $2m buyout

[OrangeAndBlack]

FUBear -- I've upgraded my signature for your review! :D

Now let's tell Mercer & Furman that their athletic sites both have the old logo at the bottom xlolx

[FUBeAR]

FUBear -- I've upgraded my signature for your review! :D

Now let's tell Mercer & Furman that their athletic sites both have the old logo at the bottom xlolx
Look @ you!!! SoCon peeps are fast and flexible. We don't change for the sake of change, but if we need to alter something to get a win, WE'RE ON IT!!!

[caribbeanhen]

Look @ you!!! SoCon peeps are fast and flexible. We don't change for the sake of change, but if we need to alter something to get a win, WE'RE ON IT!!!

like a second cousin

[Reign of Terrier]

like a second cousin

App and GSU left

[FUBeAR]

App and GSU left
he said 2nd cousin - not sister​

[ElCid]

like a second cousin

You got anything against first cousins?

[FUBeAR]

You got anything against first cousins?
In case any of y’all need further guidance in this area…

State by state:


State
First cousin marriage allowed
Sexual relations or cohabitation allowed
First-cousin marriages void
Out-of-state marriages by state's residents void
All out-of-state marriages void
First-cousin-once-removed marriage allowed
Half-cousin marriage allowed
Adopted-cousin marriage allowed


Alabama[6] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-6)
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes


Alaska[7] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-7)[8] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-8)
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Arizona[9] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-11)
Only if both parties are 65 or older, or one is infertile
No[12] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-12)
Yes
Yes[13] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-13)
Yes
Yes
Yes[14] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-14)
Yes


Arkansas[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-16)[17] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-17)
No
Yes
Yes
No[18] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-18)
No
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


California[19] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-19)[20] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-20)[21] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-21)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Colorado[22] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-22)[23] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-23)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Connecticut[24] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-24)[25] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-25)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Delaware[26] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-26)[27] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-27)[28] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-28)[29] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-29)
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Un*known
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


District of Columbia[30] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-30)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Florida[31] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-31)[32] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-32)
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes


Georgia[33] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-33)[34] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-34)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Hawaii[35] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-35)[36] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-36)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Idaho[37] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-37)[38] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-38)[39] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-39)[40] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-40)[41] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-41)
No
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


Illinois[42] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-42)[43] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-43)[44] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-44)[45] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-45)[46] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-46)[47] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-47)
No
No
No
No[48] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-48)[49] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-49)
No[50] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-50)
No
No[51] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-51)
Un*known


Indiana[52] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-52)[53] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-53)[54] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-54)[55] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-55)
Only if both parties are 65 or older
Yes
Yes
No
No[56] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-56)
Yes
Yes
Yes


Iowa[57] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-57)
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known
No
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


Kansas[58] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-58)[59] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-59)[60] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-60)
No
Yes
Yes
No[61] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-61)
No[62] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-62)
Yes
Yes
Un*known


Kentucky[63] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-63)[64] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-64)[65] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-65)[66] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-66)
No
No[67] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-67)
Yes
Yes[68] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-68)
Un*known
No
No
Un*known


Louisiana[69] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-69)[70] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-70)[71] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-71)
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known
No[72] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-72)
Yes
No
If judicial approval in writing is obtained


Maine[73] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-73)[74] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-74)
Proof of genetic counseling (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_counseling)from a genetic counselor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_counselor)
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Un*known
Yes


Maryland[75] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-75)[76] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-76)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Massachusetts[77] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-77)[78] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-78)[79] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-79)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Michigan
No[80] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-80)
Sexual conduct with a cousin who is mentally disabled, incapable, or incapacitated, physically helpless, or developmentally disabled due to autism, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, or intellectual disability is a felony
Yes
No[81] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-81)
No[82] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-82)
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


Minnesota[83] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-83)[84] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-84)[85] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-85)
Only certain types
Yes
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
No
Un*known


Mississippi[86] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-86)[87] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-87)[88] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-88)
No
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known
Yes
Un*known
Yes


Missouri[89] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-89)[90] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-90)
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


Montana[91] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-91)[92] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-92)[93] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-93)
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
Yes
Un*known


Nebraska[94] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-94)[95] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-95)[96] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-96)[97] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-97)
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Nevada[98] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-98)[99] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-99)
No
No
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
No
Yes
Un*known


New Hampshire[100] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-100)[101] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-101)[102] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-102)
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Un*known
No[103] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-103)


New Jersey[104] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-104)[105] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-105)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


New Mexico[106] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-106)[107] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-107)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


New York[108] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-108)[109] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-109)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


North Carolina[110] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-110)[111] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-111)
Yes, except in the rare case of double first cousins
Yes
Yes, but cannot be declared void after all of cohabitation, birth of issue, and death of one of the parties has occurred
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


North Dakota[112] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-112)[113] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-113)[114] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-114)
No
No
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
No
Un*known


Ohio[115] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-115)[116] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-116)[117] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-117)
No
Yes
No
No
No
No
Un*known
Un*known


Oklahoma[118] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-118)[119] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-119)
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known


Oregon[120] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-120)[121] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-121)[122] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-122)
No
Yes
Yes
No[123] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-123)
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Pennsylvania[124] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-124)[125] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-125)[126] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-126)
No[127] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-127)
Yes
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
Un*known
Un*known


Rhode Island[128] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-128)[129] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-129)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


South Carolina[130] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-130)[131] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-131)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


South Dakota[132] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-132)[133] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-133)[134] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-134)
No
No
Yes
No[135] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-135)
No
Yes
Yes
Un*known


Tennessee[136] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-136)[137] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-137)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Texas[138] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-138)[139] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-139)[140] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-140)[141] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-141)
No
No
No
No
No
Yes
No
No


Utah[142] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-142)[143] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-143)[144] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-144)
Only if both parties are 65 or older, or both are 55 or older with a district court finding of infertility of either party
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Un*known
Un*known


Vermont[145] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-145)[146] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-146)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Virginia[147] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-147)[148] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-148)
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes


Washington[149] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-149)[150] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-150)[151] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-151)
No
Yes[152] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-152)
Yes
No[153] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-153)
No
No
No
Un*known


West Virginia[154] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-154)[155] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-155)[156] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-156)[157] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-157)[158] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-158)[159] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-159)
No
Yes
Un*known
Un*known
Un*known
Yes
No
Yes


Wisconsin[160] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-160)[161] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-161)[162] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-162)[163] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-163)[164] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-164)
Only if the woman is at least 55, or either is permanently sterile
No
No
No
Un*known
Only if the woman is at least 55, or either is permanently sterile
Yes
Yes


Wyoming[165] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-165)[166] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-166)[167] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States#cite_note-167)
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
Yes
Un*known
Yes

[caribbeanhen]

You got anything against first cousins?

haha a little to close for Southern Comfort

[ElonFirefighter]

he said 2nd cousin - not sister​

App doesn't care about relatives its more based on the number of teeth they have

GSU is weather or not they are in prisons or at least have conjugal visit