Ivy Athletes Bring Antitrust Suit for Lack of Scholarships

[Go Green]

Federal lawsuit takes aim at Ivy League’s policy of no athletic scholarships (inquirer.com) (https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/penn/ivy-league-ncaa-lawsuit-athletic-scholarships-20230307.html)

Brought by basketball players, but will almost certainly impact football.

If they are successful, could really change the way Ivy football is run.

World stay tuned and may the best lawyers win!

[FUBeAR]

PFL also…and the whole of D3 Athletics…prolly have to sue the NCAA (again) on that one

…but…bottom line…just a few more feathers, or maybe a wing off the Goose that has been laying the Golden Eggs of College Athletics. She’ll be dead soon enough.

Ivies should (individually, of course) respond by immediately announcing they will be discontinuing all intercollegiate athletics activities at the conclusion of this academic year.

[lionsrking2]

Not an attorney, don’t play one on TV, nor stay at Holiday Inn Express, but I have a hard time thinking this would be successful. Ivies are private, participation in intercollegiate athletics is a privilege, not a right, and no one is forcing athletes to play. Plus academic scholarships exist. If successful, I would assume walkons at institutions that do offer athletic scholarships would have equal beef.

[JacksFan40]

Don't really get this, those athletes chose to attend the Ivy schools and should've known there were no athletic scholarships offered by them. I'm guessing most of them had other D1 or D2 scholarships offered to them, so they could have chosen to go elsewhere.

[ElCid]

Federal lawsuit takes aim at Ivy League’s policy of no athletic scholarships (inquirer.com) (https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/penn/ivy-league-ncaa-lawsuit-athletic-scholarships-20230307.html)

Brought by basketball players, but will almost certainly impact football.

If they are successful, could really change the way Ivy football is run.

World stay tuned and may the best lawyers win!

Interesting legal twist. But the questions arising will be obvious. Can a college sports league make their own rules? If not, then why even have them. Not sure the legal status of the Ivy League as an administrative entity though. That may be where this could work. Also, can colleges and universities join whatever league they choose? If not, then who will decide? Some judge? If a student wants an athletic scholarship, why don't they go somewhere else that offers one? Lots of like minded schools come together and decide on the rules which they will abide by. If a legal issue does exists to force this on them then they could simply reconstitute the league with a bullet proof charter to avoid this.

As an aside, there is one situation I always found perplexing. Quite the opposite of no athletic scholarships. And that is some schools are able to give scholarships to every single athlete, on every single sports team. Yup, it happens. The students at the three Federal military academies all receive 100% cost of attendance, plus monthly pay! They obviously have an unfair advantage, although it is also obviously reduced by the military aspects, which are not for everyone, and their unique selectivity. The results on the field demonstrate this.

Not sure a school is under any obligation to give scholarships, of any kind. If a student really wants to go to one of these Ivy schools for an education, and play sports, then they need to suck it up. Not sure a restraint of trade argument will float. These are students first and athletes by choice and desire.

I'm sure there are lots of folks who support them having athletic scholarships, but until those people sit, and make up a majority, on the governing boards of these institutions, pretty sure it won't happen.

And this would also open up the whole Div III situation. Couldn't the same legal issue apply to every single school and conference in Div III. It's not exactly the same since this is a NCAA requirement, but the NCAA isn't legally protected any more or less than the Ivy is in making a decision on whether schools decide to give scholarships. Hmm.

[FUBeAR]

Fellow AGS Peeps - applying common sense to today’s collegiate athletics and judicial environments is surely an exercise in futility.

A corollary of the Costanza Method may apply…whatever makes the most sense, expect the opposite to become the reality.

[taper]

I will laugh for days if this suit results in allowing the current D1-3 scholarship setup but requires schools to fund according to their division. Ivy will be forced to choose between athletic scholarships or going to D3. Unlikely that'll be the ruling but I can hope.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I will laugh for days if this suit results in allowing the current D1-3 scholarship setup but requires schools to fund according to their division. Ivy will be forced to choose between athletic scholarships or going to D3. Unlikely that'll be the ruling but I can hope.

It will also be a net negative for Ivy athletes, except for those from upper middle class and wealthy backgrounds and who play on a major sports team. Everyone knows that the overall amount of "financial aid" awarded to the football team at Harvard, Yale and Princeton comes out to more than 63 scholarships.

At least this would end the charade that is Ivy "non-scholarship" football.

I'm guessing the plaintiffs behind this particular suit have well-off parents who are paying full freight, or close to it.

[ElCid]

I'm guessing the plaintiffs behind this particular suit have well-off parents who are paying full freight, or close to it.

We have a winner! Except I thought they already graduated. But they may want damages. LOL. Transparent as hell. And don't forget the lawyers pushing it for their cut of the booty.

[Son of Eli]

It will also be a net negative for Ivy athletes, except for those from upper middle class and wealthy backgrounds and who play on a major sports team. Everyone knows that the overall amount of "financial aid" awarded to the football team at Harvard, Yale and Princeton comes out to more than 63 scholarships.

At least this would end the charade that is Ivy "non-scholarship" football.

I'm guessing the plaintiffs behind this particular suit have well-off parents who are paying full freight, or close to it.


Ivy League endowments are more than ample enough to pay for athletic scholarships while continuing the current financial aid policies.

[Son of Eli]

We have a winner! Except I thought they already graduated. But they may want damages. LOL. Transparent as hell. And don't forget the lawyers pushing it for their cut of the booty.


“Each received at least one other “full-cost-of-attendance” athletic scholarship offer from another school, according to the suit, noting that Brown did not cover full cost of attendance for either plaintiff.”

I take that to mean each received a financial aid package but it didn’t cover the full cost of attending.

[ElCid]

“Each received at least one other “full-cost-of-attendance” athletic scholarship offer from another school, according to the suit, noting that Brown did not cover full cost of attendance for either plaintiff.”

I take that to mean each received a financial aid package but it didn’t cover the full cost of attending.

Maybe. Didn't really say. This was probably intentional by whoever released the information. Wouldn't want to destroy the narrative up front. If they got, say, 80% of full cost of attendance (as an example), you would not get as much sympathy. Boo hoo.

[Son of Eli]

Maybe. Didn't really say. This was probably intentional by whoever released the information. Wouldn't want to destroy the narrative up front. If they got, say, 80% of full cost of attendance (as an example), you would not get as much sympathy. Boo hoo.


Graduating with $40,000 less in student loans is a big deal to most people.

[ElCid]

Graduating with $40,000 less in student loans is a big deal to most people.

Well, I would have had 15-20k, if I hadn't worked hard and saved every summer to earn the money needed. As it was I ended up with only about 3K. And that was 40 years ago. You won't get much sympathy from me. People need to prioritize what they spend money on. I prioritized my education cost and debt. Possible piss poor decisions do not deserve sympathy. I say that knowing college students who are currently driving new cars to school while whining about their student loan debt. I kid you not.

[caribbeanhen]

Well, I would have had 15-20k, if I hadn't worked hard and saved every summer to earn the money needed. As it was I ended up with only about 3K. And that was 40 years ago. You won't get much sympathy from me. People need to prioritize what they spend money on. I prioritized my education cost and debt. Possible piss poor decisions do not deserve sympathy. I say that knowing college students who are currently driving new cars to school while whining about their student loan debt. I kid you not.

C’mon El Cid, your old school common sense work ethic example is so foreign to the young masses of today you will be called an old timer or worse…. Get with the times will ya … everybody knows you don’t need to work or earn anything nowadays

[KPSUL]

The Ivy League is an association that transcends athletics. The member institutions don't offer merit scholarships in any area be it academics, music, art or athletics. When did a school last leave or join the Ivy League? So the two class action plaintiffs had an offer to attend another school with a full cost of attendance basketball scholarship. I fail to see why that helps their case. To me, it demonstrates that the Ivy league education offered benefits, tangible and intangible, beyond the other school's scholarship offer and that's why they choose the elite eight school.

This lawsuit is blatantly absurd. The plaintiffs had all the pertinent facts and used that knowledge when making a sound decision on their own volition. The plaintiffs claim this is a "class action" suit that includes all the other athletes from the Ivy League. I suspect that almost all of those athletes would prefer to have no association with it.

[ElCid]

C’mon El Cid, your old school common sense work ethic example is so foreign to the young masses of today you will be called an old timer or worse…. Get with the times will ya … everybody knows you don’t need to work or earn anything nowadays

Yeah I know. But I can't stand the whining. I guess I was lucky. I could see me blowing my money from my jobs, but my parents were harsh. I had to make a choice.

If these yahoos actually wanted an education AND play Div I sports, they had options. I'm not ready to dictate to any school just because these children wanted to go to school X and school X doesn't offer what they wanted. It's called a marketplace. If enough athletes don't go due to cost, and the schools feel it, then that will promote a change in the correct way, internally from the ground up.

[clenz]

Well, I would have had 15-20k, if I hadn't worked hard and saved every summer to earn the money needed. As it was I ended up with only about 3K. And that was 40 years ago. You won't get much sympathy from me. People need to prioritize what they spend money on. I prioritized my education cost and debt. Possible piss poor decisions do not deserve sympathy. I say that knowing college students who are currently driving new cars to school while whining about their student loan debt. I kid you not.

The nationwide cost of college (tuition, board, books, etc.) 40 years ago was 3,800 per year.

The average cost for the same expenses in 2023 is 35k


But yeah, it’s because people are lazy they can’t by a years tuition by working a job over the summer and part time while taking classes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ElCid]

The nationwide cost of college (tuition, board, books, etc.) 40 years ago was 3,800 per year.

The average cost for the same expenses in 2023 is 35k


But yeah, it’s because people are lazy they can’t by a years tuition by working a job over the summer and part time while taking classes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You missed the specific issue and details of the discussion and that was these individuals might be 10k in the hole per year...if they "only" got 80% of a "complete" ride, TODAY. Sorry, still no sympathy. Really? You can't come up with a huge chunk of that each year? No need to go into 10k a year in debt... unless they choose to.

[Ivytalk]

Harvard is probably more concerned about the SCOTUS affirmative action case than it is about this one.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

The nationwide cost of college (tuition, board, books, etc.) 40 years ago was 3,800 per year.

The average cost for the same expenses in 2023 is 35k


But yeah, it’s because people are lazy they can’t by a years tuition by working a job over the summer and part time while taking classes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



xblahx


I'm sure this will go over your head and it will not surprise me.

Tuition has exploded because of easy ass money from gov subsidizing college tuition. Schools know this and jack up their rates. Pretty easy junior.

Here's a nugget for students: don't get that worthless psychology degree or humanities or gender studies or English or art history degrees.....

[caribbeanhen]

xblahx


I'm sure this will go over your head and it will not surprise me.

Tuition has exploded because of easy ass money from gov subsidizing college tuition. Schools know this and jack up their rates. Pretty easy junior.

Here's a nugget for students: don't get that worthless psychology degree or humanities or gender studies or English or art history degrees.....

Some sage advice right here

[taper]

Some sage advice right here
There are plenty of good jobs that ask for any degree as proof you have some level of commitment. If you're going that route you need to do a <$8k annual community or online college, not a $50k+ AAU. Pretty easy to get a 4 year degree for under $40k total, and if that lands you a white collar job that pays $10k more than just a HS diploma that's a win. $100k in debt and serving coffee is really stupid.

[DFW HOYA]

PFL also…and the whole of D3 Athletics…prolly have to sue the NCAA (again) on that one


The suit is not arguing that non-scholarship athletics are illegal, but that the Ivy Group's one-size-fits-all approach to managing athletic aid is a restraint on trade.

If the eight schools individually decide not to offer aid, they can do so. Can the Ivy League kick Penn out if it chose another path? Sure.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

There are plenty of good jobs that ask for any degree as proof you have some level of commitment. If you're going that route you need to do a <$8k annual community or online college, not a $50k+ AAU. Pretty easy to get a 4 year degree for under $40k total, and if that lands you a white collar job that pays $10k more than just a HS diploma that's a win. $100k in debt and serving coffee is really stupid.


There are many trade jobs out there that a young person could pursue that pay more than a lot of 4 year degrees.

22 year old kid from town is a welder and makes north of 100K. Most of buddies are still in school or have a ton of debt coming out of school.

[caribbeanhen]

There are plenty of good jobs that ask for any degree as proof you have some level of commitment. If you're going that route you need to do a <$8k annual community or online college, not a $50k+ AAU. Pretty easy to get a 4 year degree for under $40k total, and if that lands you a white collar job that pays $10k more than just a HS diploma that's a win. $100k in debt and serving coffee is really stupid.

apparently one problem is their are numerous colleges out their that are all to happy to overcharge you for a worthless degree, how can so many “bright” people be in so much debt?

[taper]

There are many trade jobs out there that a young person could pursue that pay more than a lot of 4 year degrees.

22 year old kid from town is a welder and makes north of 100K. Most of buddies are still in school or have a ton of debt coming out of school.
Completely agree. I graduated HS in 2001 and our guidance counselors screwed over our generation and the entire country by insisting everyone go to 4 year college or your life will be a failure. Tons of kids dropped out with huge debt that never should have gone to college in the first place and the trades suffer from lack of people.
That's why I said white collar. The people that get art history degrees probably have no interest in welding and wouldn't be good at it no matter how much training they had.

[FUBeAR]

The suit is not arguing that non-scholarship athletics are illegal, but that the Ivy Group's one-size-fits-all approach to managing athletic aid is a restraint on trade.

If the eight schools individually decide not to offer aid, they can do so. Can the Ivy League kick Penn out if it chose another path? Sure.
Right. So how is that different than the schools of the PFL doing the same thing? I suppose the NCAA’s role in ‘restraining trade’ in D3 Athletics (or in having any scholarship limits by sport and/or by division) is a bit different, but does it really matter? All that’s needed is an ‘aggrieved’ party with some sort of locus standi and a willing Attorney / Law Firm.

[DFW HOYA]

Right. So how is that different than the schools of the PFL doing the same thing? I suppose the NCAA’s role in ‘restraining trade’ in D3 Athletics (or in having any scholarship limits by sport and/or by division) is a bit different, but does it really matter? All that’s needed is an ‘aggrieved’ party with some sort of locus standi and a willing Attorney / Law Firm.

Pioneer schools have their own admissions standards and aid calculations, where the Ivy is tightly controlled across the eight schools.

The only other non-scholarship FCS school is Georgetown, which is unwelcome in the Ivy and not a fit for the Pioneer. Maybe the NEC can throw it a lifeline.

[FUBeAR]

Pioneer schools have their own admissions standards and aid calculations, where the Ivy is tightly controlled across the eight schools.
OK - can see how the Ivies are more “horizontal competitors” than the PFL schools are, but still think an enterprising Atty could certainly make a case against them as part of a larger action against the NCAA revolving around the “Dayton Rule” (which spawned the PFL and its no athletic scholarships for Football rule) - and on a broader plane - the NCAA restricting the number of athletic scholarships that schools can offer by sport and/or by division.

Different subject - Why is Georgetown “not a fit” for the PFL?

As College Football’s version of “The Land of Misfit Toys,” FUBeAR believes any school is a fit for the PFL. And the PFL would seem to be a fit for any school that doesn’t want to offer Football scholarships, wants their Athletics program to be Division 1, and is not an Ivy League member. Does that not describe Georgetown?

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Completely agree. I graduated HS in 2001 and our guidance counselors screwed over our generation and the entire country by insisting everyone go to 4 year college or your life will be a failure. Tons of kids dropped out with huge debt that never should have gone to college in the first place and the trades suffer from lack of people.
That's why I said white collar. The people that get art history degrees probably have no interest in welding and wouldn't be good at it no matter how much training they had.


I graduated a little earlier in '87 but we had auto mechanics shop, with a huge building for it, wood working classes and Ag classes. The school here in MN has discontinued all of their "trade" classes and it is sad. I went to the school board meeting when they were debating what kind of classes to cut and recommended them not to because of the rural/Ag area we are in but it fell on deaf ears.

The young guy I just had shingle my home (summer 21) graduated about the time you did and he cannot keep up he says. He charges a fair price and does great work and works hard. Turns many jobs away.

That's all anyone needs to do. Charge a fair price, work hard, get the job done and clean your mess up and you would have no issues making a great living in a trade. But the "stickler" for most people now are the words: work hard

[aceinthehole]

Pioneer schools have their own admissions standards and aid calculations, where the Ivy is tightly controlled across the eight schools.

The only other non-scholarship FCS school is Georgetown, which is unwelcome in the Ivy and not a fit for the Pioneer. Maybe the NEC can throw it a lifeline.

It is already understood that the NEC would (and likely has) opened the door for Georgetown football.

You know very well that the NEC would welcome Georgetown football with open arms - it is the Hoyas that prefer the Patriot despite the challenges.

The NEC added Duquesne years ago and it has been a great mutual fit. The league also asked Marist and has maintained an open door for them, but the Red Foxes clearly prefer the Pioneer model. And the NEC even added URI, which backed out when the CAA expanded football with Albany and Stony Brook.

Georgetown could join NEC football immediately if they wanted - you just have to look inside your own administration and AD to ask why they haven't signed up to join.

The NEC commish would drive down from New Jersey in an instant if GU wanted to sign up as an associate member in any NEC sponsored sport.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown could join NEC football immediately if they wanted - you just have to look inside your own administration and AD to ask why they haven't signed up to join.

The NEC commish would drive down from New Jersey in an instant if GU wanted to sign up as an associate member in any NEC sponsored sport.

I do not doubt this--at some corner of the athletic department, there is a perception that playing Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham is preferable to St. Francis, Duquesne and Wagner. However, a combined record of 9-73-0 against those three schools is an indictment of the entire PL model.

Do fans care if it's Bucknell or Merrimack at Georgetown's half-built field? No.

One thing the NEC offers that the PL will not is admissions flexibility. With an academic index comparable to Cornell, Georgetown loses on every kid that comes through the PL that can get admitted to one of the other schools. A 1200 SAT is a free ticket to Fordham and it's not even touchable at Georgetown. Being able to take kids below the AI and be more aggressive in the portal (something tacitly discouraged in the PL) would pay immediate dividends.

[ElCid]

The suit is not arguing that non-scholarship athletics are illegal, but that the Ivy Group's one-size-fits-all approach to managing athletic aid is a restraint on trade.

If the eight schools individually decide not to offer aid, they can do so. Can the Ivy League kick Penn out if it chose another path? Sure.

It can simply be argued that the schools can do whatever they want. The league is an association of these schools. As voting members of the association, they can make any rule they want for membership. Again, if they can't, then why even have a conference? The conference is not an outside independent entity imposing the rule on the member schools. I'm sure any school is free to disassociate itself and move to another conference. It's been done before...just a few times. LOL.

But as I, and FUbEAR, have mentioned, the entire NCAA and Div III are also at risk from this. If it has legs that is, which I don't think it does.

[taper]

It can simply be argued that the schools can do whatever they want. The league is an association of these schools. As voting members of the association, they can make any rule they want for membership. Again, if they can't, then why even have a conference? The conference is not an outside independent entity imposing the rule on the member schools. I'm sure any school is free to disassociate itself and move to another conference. It's been done before...just a few times. LOL.

But as I, and FUbEAR, have mentioned, the entire NCAA and Div III are also at risk from this. If it has legs that is, which I don't think it does.
It actually isn't that simple. Being a private, volunteer organization does not exempt you from anti-trust laws. O'Bannon v NCAA and NCAA v Alston made that very clear. Congress gave the Ivies an anti-trust exemption but that expired last fall. I don't think it's a coincidence this lawsuit was filed immediately after the end of the BB regular season after that expiration. Johnson v NCAA is in the works and has a good chance of bringing down the entire system. Some pro sports like MLB and NFL have varying levels of exemptions from Congress. NCAA does not and is constantly losing court cases.

[DFW HOYA]

Johnson v NCAA is in the works and has a good chance of bringing down the entire system. Some pro sports like MLB and NFL have varying levels of exemptions from Congress. NCAA does not and is constantly losing court cases.

This suit is not against the NCAA, which has next to nothing to do with these issues.

[taper]

This suit is not against the NCAA, which has next to nothing to do with these issues.
Of course it matters. If Johnson wins then all NCAA athletes, including Ivies, are school employees and are paid in cash. All of this goes back to anti-trust laws, which Ivy no longer has an exemption for and NCAA is constantly losing. Whatever your view on amateur athletics are, simple fact is the NCAA(and therefore the conferences to varying degrees) makes massive amounts of money and the law is catching up with that.

[DFW HOYA]

Of course it matters. If Johnson wins then all NCAA athletes, including Ivies, are school employees and are paid in cash.

That is not the same as scholarship aid.

[ElCid]

It actually isn't that simple. Being a private, volunteer organization does not exempt you from anti-trust laws. O'Bannon v NCAA and NCAA v Alston made that very clear. Congress gave the Ivies an anti-trust exemption but that expired last fall. I don't think it's a coincidence this lawsuit was filed immediately after the end of the BB regular season after that expiration. Johnson v NCAA is in the works and has a good chance of bringing down the entire system. Some pro sports like MLB and NFL have varying levels of exemptions from Congress. NCAA does not and is constantly losing court cases.

Again, why even have a conf if you can't have rules governing that conf. Anti trust when it comes to a college sports conferences is a stretch. What exemption had Congress given them? What were the nuts and bolts of it? Do other college conferences have exemptions? It all comes down to, did the Ivy League, as an entity, prevent them from having scholorships or had like minded schools banded together to form a league in order to have a somewhat level playing field. Because if one school gets scholorships and the others don't, it will no longer be level, in theory. Can they then kick that scholarship team out? You got to love lawyers who only care about their pay day and not the long term health of basically good institutions.

And I find the entire premise of the Johnson v NCAA suit a joke. If this thing goes forward, it will basically end college sports as we've known it. Because I, and a lot of people, would no longer spend one penny to support college sports from that point on. I don't spend one penny on professional sports now. And this would professionalize college sports. People and students would no longer want to pay student athletic fees (by choice of going somewhere without them), no tickets, no watching it, etc. The whole enterprise would fail. Many colleges would probably cease having sports teams. It would not be economically feasible for most. Paying college athletes a salary will alienate all non athlete students. Talk about killing attendance and souring future fans. And if it happens, it will basically, eventually, eliminate all scholorships.

And using the logic of this lawsuit, let's go one step more. The next lawsuit will challenge academic requirements. How long before they do away with all academic standards completely? Why not just hires mental slugs off the street instead. No classes required. How can an employer discriminate against someone who just can't get into college?

[taper]

That is not the same as scholarship aid.
Except that it is the same, as far as anti-trust laws go. Do organizations have the ability to collude to the detriment of others? Courts are consistently ruling no. I'm sorry if you don't see that, but you might be in for a rude awakening once these rulings come down. The casual fan's opinion on amateur athletics really doesn't matter in the slightest when weighed against century old anti-trust laws.

[DFW HOYA]

Except that it is the same, as far as anti-trust laws go. Do organizations have the ability to collude to the detriment of others? Courts are consistently ruling no. I'm sorry if you don't see that, but you might be in for a rude awakening once these rulings come down. The casual fan's opinion on amateur athletics really doesn't matter in the slightest when weighed against century old anti-trust laws.

Are you saying, or proposing, that every athlete, right down to the 13th player on the women's squash club team, would be owed a full scholarship as well? Of course not.

[taper]

Are you saying, or proposing, that every athlete, right down to the 13th player on the women's squash club team, would be owed a full scholarship as well? Of course not.
I'm not proposing anything. Just saying the simple fact that NCAA lost O'Bannon and Alston and will probably lose Choh and Johnson. I think the courts will decide all athletes are owed compensation, and your and my opinion has absolutely no bearing on the law. Pretending this can't happen is nothing but fantasy.

[FUBeAR]

I'm not proposing anything. Just saying the simple fact that NCAA lost O'Bannon and Alston and will probably lose Choh and Johnson. I think the courts will decide all athletes are owed compensation, and your and my opinion has absolutely no bearing on the law. Pretending this can't happen is nothing but fantasy.
Justice FUBeAR concurs with Justice taper in this matter.

Surprised the article on the Johnson case did not mention that the Chief Legal Counsel for the Department of Labor issued a ruling on 9/29/21 stating that College Athletes are Student Workers / Employees and not “Student Athletes.”

https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-general-counsel-jennifer-abruzzo-issues-memo-on-employee-status-of

Bureaucrat vs. Judiciary, yes…but would imagine her ruling would be included as evidence for the Plaintiffs.

[ngineer]

One other item that needs fleshing out...Cornell. A good size of that student body is in the SUNY entity, and not private. A lot of Cornell athletes get admitted through the state school avenue.

I also think it's time to dissolve the NCAA. Its original purpose no longer exists...same with the AAU. What's an amateur athlete anymore?

[aceinthehole]

I do not doubt this--at some corner of the athletic department, there is a perception that playing Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham is preferable to St. Francis, Duquesne and Wagner. However, a combined record of 9-73-0 against those three schools is an indictment of the entire PL model.

Do fans care if it's Bucknell or Merrimack at Georgetown's half-built field? No.

One thing the NEC offers that the PL will not is admissions flexibility. With an academic index comparable to Cornell, Georgetown loses on every kid that comes through the PL that can get admitted to one of the other schools. A 1200 SAT is a free ticket to Fordham and it's not even touchable at Georgetown. Being able to take kids below the AI and be more aggressive in the portal (something tacitly discouraged in the PL) would pay immediate dividends.

Agreed. I think the GU administration absolutely prefers to see Lehigh, Fordham, and Holy Cross on the conference schedule - instead of Sacred Heart, Saint Francis and Wagner. I get it and don't think that's wrong from an institutional perspective. I doubt the coaches, players or fans care as much about the names on the schedule (and are instead focused on wining at the FCS level), but I'm sure the NEC's lower academic/institutional profile is the only reason why the Hoyas haven't seriously explored the NEC as an option.

But as you point out so often, GU isn't competitive under PL structure and would absolutely improve their success in the NEC. Personally, I don't think regular games against Duquesne, Merrimack, and Stonehill would somehow tarnish Georgetown's standing in academic circles. I'm sure your AD/President doesn't want to formally align with the NEC because of the backlash/embarrassment from many GU supporters for swapping current association with Bucknell and Lafayette and for LIU and CCSU. But let's be honest, the NEC membership is as good or better than the former MAAC Football, which GU had no problem with.

Oh well ...

[bonarae]

I do not doubt this--at some corner of the athletic department, there is a perception that playing Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham is preferable to St. Francis, Duquesne and Wagner. However, a combined record of 9-73-0 against those three schools is an indictment of the entire PL model.

Do fans care if it's Bucknell or Merrimack at Georgetown's half-built field? No.

One thing the NEC offers that the PL will not is admissions flexibility. With an academic index comparable to Cornell, Georgetown loses on every kid that comes through the PL that can get admitted to one of the other schools. A 1200 SAT is a free ticket to Fordham and it's not even touchable at Georgetown. Being able to take kids below the AI and be more aggressive in the portal (something tacitly discouraged in the PL) would pay immediate dividends.

I prefer that Georgetown should drop football within the next 10-15 years in order for the critics to shut up...

[UNHWildcat18]

I prefer that Georgetown should drop football within the next 10-15 years in order for the critics to shut up...

As much is it would be painful for their football fans.....If they want to be more competitive in basketball as well as soccer/lax they should just drop football and save the money. Looking at cooper field...... It's a fantastic sized facility for soccer/lax..... a bit small for football though. I truly wouldn't be surprised if they dropped the sport in time.

[Go Green]

But let's be honest, the NEC membership is as good or better than the former MAAC Football, which GU had no problem with.



You're right that GU generally didn't have a problem with MAAC membership.

But my understanding (happy to be corrected) was that GU's academic reputation started reaching current heights around the 1990s when 1) GU alum Bill Clinton became president and 2) DC's reputation as a livable city improved (as was the case for other cities).

We will never know if GU would have been content to stay pat if the MAAC survived given the way history played out...

[Go Green]

As much is it would be painful for their football fans.....If they want to be more competitive in basketball as well as soccer/lax they should just drop football and save the money. Looking at cooper field...... It's a fantastic sized facility for soccer/lax..... a bit small for football though. I truly wouldn't be surprised if they dropped the sport in time.

Has any university ever dropped football twice?

[DFW HOYA]

As much is it would be painful for their football fans.....If they want to be more competitive in basketball as well as soccer/lax they should just drop football and save the money. Looking at cooper field...... It's a fantastic sized facility for soccer/lax..... a bit small for football though. I truly wouldn't be surprised if they dropped the sport in time.

Georgetown has played football since 1881. It can be competitive within three years if the school would commit to fair admissions and a scheduling arrangement outside the Patriot League.

As to the topic at hand, the original idea to leave the MAAC and play a football model to pursue closer relationships with Ivy schools that would never play MAAC schools at the time. What was learned was that Ivy schools really wanted nothing to do with Georgetown, either.

[UNHWildcat18]

Has any university ever dropped football twice?

Not sure, but there is always a first for everything! lol

[UNHWildcat18]

Georgetown has played football since 1881. It can be competitive within three years if the school would commit to fair admissions and a scheduling arrangement outside the Patriot League.

As to the topic at hand, the original idea to leave the MAAC and play a football model to pursue closer relationships with Ivy schools that would never play MAAC schools at the time. What was learned was that Ivy schools really wanted nothing to do with Georgetown, either.

I don't disagree at all. They just haven't given a **** in a long time and GU basketball could actually make money if supported more. Not saying it will happen, just saying I could see it being a possibility... I hope you guys stick around the PL and actually provide the team with enough support though.

[FUBeAR]

Has any university ever dropped football twice?
St. Mary’s (CA) has dropped Football 3 times - 1899-1914, 1951-1969, and 2003-Present.

[aceinthehole]

As to the topic at hand, the original idea to leave the MAAC and play a football model to pursue closer relationships with Ivy schools that would never play MAAC schools at the time. What was learned was that Ivy schools really wanted nothing to do with Georgetown, either.

I highly respect your opinion and posts here, but I gotta call bull**** on that. There has to be a deeper issue - or it is just geography.

Over the last 15 years or so the numbery of Ivy-NEC games suggests that that something else is going on or your expectations are misplaced.

The majority of the Ivy League has scheduled most, if not all of the NEC. If a league with the history and pedigree like the Ivy wanted to avoid the NEC like the plague they sure could have. But they haven't and some of the matchup even take me by surprise.

CCSU got home/home deals with Columbia, Dartmouth, Penn, and Brown. We will do the unthinkable and get a game at Yale Bowl next year! SHU has become an Ivy regular and has had games with Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn. Wagner and others have all had games with Ivys. Sure, games against H-Y-P are rarer, but they do happen.

Why would an Ivy league school agree to play home/home deals with CCSU and SHU, when they make a trip every other year to New Haven to face Yale? Clearly, we offer no recruiting advantage and no alumni appeal - so why do they schedule us? Because it is a winnable game and a short bus ride.

Georgetown obviously offers a very winnable game for Ivy opponents, so I have to think they Ivy League just doesn't want to travel to D.C. for the added expense of an overnight. A large portion of the Ivy-NEC-PL matchups offer each other day-trip games for the most part.

[DFW HOYA]

I highly respect your opinion and posts here, but I gotta call bull**** on that. There has to be a deeper issue - or it is just geography.


In no particular order:

1. Geography
2. Game day facilities
3. Lack of parking/fan tailgating opportunities
4. A non-competitive opponent (8-43-1 overall, 1-12 vs H-Y-P)
5. Lack of interest by their fans
6. Lack of Georgetown fans traveling to their home stadium

[aceinthehole]

In no particular order:

1. Geography
2. Game day facilities
3. Lack of parking/fan tailgating opportunities
4. A non-competitive opponent (8-43-1 overall, 1-12 vs H-Y-P)
5. Lack of interest by their fans
6. Lack of Georgetown fans traveling to their home stadium

OK, but doesn't that also apply to some degree at all/most NEC schools and they seem to find a way to schedule a few games with them.

[Go...gate]

In no particular order:

1. No scholarships
2. Game day facilities
3. Lack of parking/fan tailgating opportunities
4. A non-competitive opponent (8-43-1 overall, 1-12 vs H-Y-P)
5. Lack of interest by their fans
6. Lack of Georgetown fans traveling to their home stadium

Fixed it for you.

[DFW HOYA]

Fixed it for you.

No FCS teams are avoiding a game with Georgetown over scholarships. A win's a win.

But without admissions/AI relief, a 60 scholarship Georgetown team is...Bucknell.

[NY Crusader 2010]

My guess is it's the travel. But DC is a reasonable trip for Penn and Princeton. And we all know Princeton has no issue with scheduling OOC cupcakes. Jacksonville and Stetson have both been on several Ivy schedules the past 10 years, as has San Diego of course. Harvard is playing a home and home with St. Thomas. So they do occasionally make road trips much further than Washington DC.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Just looked up Georgetown 2023 schedule and its actually not bad.

OOC is as follows:

Marist
Sacred Heart
Stonehill
@ Columbia
@ Penn

2 Ivies, 2 NEC games where Hoyas will likely be dogs but still should be competitive at home + what should be a W to start the season against Marist. Hoyas and Red Foxes seem to be establishing an opening weekend rivalry game.

[ElCid]

My guess is it's the travel. But DC is a reasonable trip for Penn and Princeton. And we all know Princeton has no issue with scheduling OOC cupcakes. Jacksonville and Stetson have both been on several Ivy schedules the past 10 years, as has San Diego of course. Harvard is playing a home and home with St. Thomas. So they do occasionally make road trips much further than Washington DC.

Princeton came to Charleston about 15 years ago as well. That's when the infamous Princeton band incident happen on our campus. It was all good on our trip up to Princeton the next year.

[Go...gate]

Princeton came to Charleston about 15 years ago as well. That's when the infamous Princeton band incident happen on our campus. It was all good on our trip up to Princeton the next year.

I understand that Princeton and VMI have agreed on a home-and-home in the next few years.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I understand that Princeton and VMI have agreed on a home-and-home in the next few years.

Typical Ivy League scheduling. Princeton should ink a series with Delaware or William & Mary ASAP.

[kdinva]

I understand that Princeton and VMI have agreed on a home-and-home in the next few years.

this WAS to have happened in 2020 (Covid) and 2024, no 2020 game, 2024 game cancelled. VMI recently signed a four game contract with William and Mary; first game in 2024. Princeton now has Howard U. in 2024.

https://fbschedules.com/princeton-releases-football-schedules-through-2029-season/

[DFW HOYA]

My guess is it's the travel. But DC is a reasonable trip for Penn and Princeton. And we all know Princeton has no issue with scheduling OOC cupcakes. Jacksonville and Stetson have both been on several Ivy schedules the past 10 years, as has San Diego of course. Harvard is playing a home and home with St. Thomas. So they do occasionally make road trips much further than Washington DC.

So why is the rest of the schedule so consistently poor? Are there no teams within four hours of Washington that wants to play a game there? Or should Georgetown just be a barnstorming team and play all 11 games on the road?

[aceinthehole]

So why is the rest of the schedule so consistently poor? Are there no teams within four hours of Washington that wants to play a game there? Or should Georgetown just be a barnstorming team and play all 11 games on the road?

Have you seen NEC schedules?

Yes, Georgetown can get all the FCS road games you want; home games are a lot tougher. You already know why no one is excited to come to DC (travel, poor facility, etc) and as a non-counter, you can't get a FBS game - but that would be on the road anyway.

NEC has 32 non-conference openings (4 per team) this year and here's a breakdown:

10 FBS (LIU and WAG play 2; Stonehill none)
12 FCS Road games (including 2 at Georgetown, 2 at Delaware; and 2 at Fordham)
4 Non-DI Home games (CCSU, DUQ, MC, WAG)
4 FCS Home game (Delaware State, Lafayette, Lehigh, and New Hampshire)

2 teams have just 10 games schedules (Saint Francis and Stonehill)

#NECFB Reveals 2023 League Slate - Northeast Conference (https://northeastconference.org/news/2023/3/20/football-necfb-reveals-2023-league-slate.aspx)

[NY Crusader 2010]

Are Stonehill and SFU planning to add an 11th game or has that ship sailed?

[aceinthehole]

I doubt either school finds a final game, but can't say for sure.

[NY Crusader 2010]

So why is the rest of the schedule so consistently poor? Are there no teams within four hours of Washington that wants to play a game there? Or should Georgetown just be a barnstorming team and play all 11 games on the road?

I haven't looked beyond this year but I don't think your 2023 schedule is bad at all. See ace's post regarding NEC schedules....and Georgetown faces more challenges than the NEC school's because they have 5 OOC games to fill as opposed to 3.