Football Executives Considering Four Changes to Shorten Games

[bulldog10jw]

https://www.si.com/college/2023/02/20/college-football-shorter-game-rules

Executives of the sport are moving closer to recommending several clock rule changes meant to reduce plays for both safety and game length reasons, multiple officials tell Sports Illustrated. They include proposals that call for the clock to continue to run after first downs and incomplete passes.

[ElCid]

https://www.si.com/college/2023/02/20/college-football-shorter-game-rules

Executives of the sport are moving closer to recommending several clock rule changes meant to reduce plays for both safety and game length reasons, multiple officials tell Sports Illustrated. They include proposals that call for the clock to continue to run after first downs and incomplete passes.

I want to say stupid rule change, but teams would just have to adapt. I could see stopping clock after first OR incomplete pass, but not both. Plus you would have issues with how fast officiating crew is after first downs. I could see some slow walking it.

I would say the best way to shorten games is do away with some media timeouts.

[bulldog10jw]

I would say the best way to shorten games is do away with some media timeouts.

They are saying that commercials don't affect game time that much. That's hard to believe when you are in a stadium and waiting through those interminable TV timeouts.

[bonarae]

Analysis from CBS Sports: https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/college-football-officials-considering-these-rule-changes-to-shorten-games-limit-exposures-for-athletes/

[ElCid]

They are saying that commercials don't affect game time that much. That's hard to believe when you are in a stadium and waiting through those interminable TV timeouts.

That they say that, doesn't make it true. At a guess, I'd say media timeouts add at least 10-15 minutes per game. Maybe more. That includes the extra time added on to TOs, etc. They should be limited to natural stops in the game (qtrs, half, time outs, etc). And they need to conform to the time allotted, not the other way around. Certainly it is more time than the clock stopping on first downs which may accumulate to only 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes, at most, for the entire game. At least certain games since it obviously depends on play results. Just like the time stops for incomplete passes.

Being a skeptic on things like this, I suspect they are trying to protect media revenue by saying that.

Notice in the CBS "analysis" they cite player safety as the driving concern. That is intellectually dishonest when limiting the "number" of games isn't a serious consideration. If you are going to use the concern of player safety then this would be a huge factor. But since it limits revenue, it will be avoided even though it would be a major factor in reducing stress/injuries. It sounds like they are trying to ensure games conform to a three hour slot more than for player safety. But that is me doubting their intentions.

Also, it's obvious that the play count per game has increased, on average, due to hurry up offenses run by so many teams. Maybe that should be addressed. Maybe revisiting the play clock is in order.

[Sitting Bull]

They are saying that commercials don't affect game time that much. That's hard to believe when you are in a stadium and waiting through those interminable TV timeouts.

I typically make a game at Navy annually and the media timeouts are just brutal. They extend the game by at least 30 minutes and compromises the game flow. It’s no wonder that by halftime, nearly half the crowd leaves. It gets dark and cold.

I would prefer media find a way to cover college football like soccer. Let the play continue on and use your pre and half for commercials.

[clenz]

Each media timeout is 2.5 minutes.
There are 3 dedicated media timeouts each quarter.
7.5 minutes per quarter for dedicated media timeouts.
30 minutes per game are dedicated to media timeouts.

That's not including all the other commercial breaks after touchdowns, changes of possession, injury or replay.

Games take about 3.25-3.5 hours to complete. Of that, about 45-60 minutes is just commercials.

Want to speed the game up? Cut the media timeouts, but we know that will never happen, and overhaul the replay system to give them a max of 60 seconds to sort it out. If it can't be sorted out in 60 seconds the call stands and we move on. Replay wasn't designed to completely "reofficiate" games as it has been moved to. It was to correct clear and obvious mistakes.

Football is a 60-minute game that takes 210 minutes to complete with 12 minutes of actual gameplay.

Many Americans **** on soccer for being boring but it's a 90-minute game with a 15-minute halftime. With the average stoppage time the game is over in 115 minutes start to finish.



Having said that, I'm fine with getting rid of the clock stop after a first down. At this point the clock is stopped for like 2, maybe 3, seconds max for 95% of the game after a first down or play out of bounds. It was so egregious during UNI games this year that I was texting buddies of mine going "The official signaled ready for play and the ball isn't even to the back judge to place yet."

Get rid of stopping the clock for first downs outside of the final 2 minutes of each half. Even that might save 2 minutes per game, maybe.

Media and replay time outs are the #1 cause of game length in all American sports.

[FUBeAR]

Want to speed the game up? …overhaul the replay system to give them a max of 60 seconds to sort it out. If it can't be sorted out in 60 seconds the call stands and we move on. Replay wasn't designed to completely "reofficiate" games as it has been moved to. It was to correct clear and obvious mistakes.

Media and replay time outs are the #1 cause of game length in all American sports.So...you’re saying this 15 minute (full quarter long) review in the Samford @ Furman game this past season wasn’t a good thing?

https://footballscoop.com/news/college-football-instant-replay-playoffs-furman-samford-southern-conference-fcs

Furman’s defense had pitched a shutout through the game’s first 20 minutes against Southern Conference rival Samford, and the Paladins had seemingly just positioned their offense for more (potentially, a 3 score lead) after Ivan Yates appeared to secure a contested interception from Samford wideout Chandler Smith.

It was Yates who met Smith at impact on a flare to the right flat and collided with Smith and then snared the ball away from the Samford receiver as the two tumbled to the ground.

A bang-bang play, for sure. But one that would ultimately spark one of the record-longest instant replay reviews in college football history?
https://twitter.com/paladinfootball/status/1576284186675118080
Well, here we are.

And after Saturday’s 15-minute review that forever altered the flow of the game, the SoCon on Monday official a statement that admitted multiple significant officiating errors and announced the crew from the Bulldogs-Paladins game had been reprimanded.

After the review – again, the same length of an actual quarter of play – Samford retained possession at its own 28-yardline, denying the Furman offense a short field and a chance to build on its double-digit lead


Samford fans continue to say it was wonderful…didn’t bother them a bit and that Furman fans are bad people (likely devil-worshipers) because it bothered them.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Just adopt the NFL clock rules (minus the 2 min warning and 12 minute halftime ) and games will be done in 3 hours across the board.

In the NFL, clock continues to run after first down when runner is tackled in bounds.

[Libertine]

I usually try to give game officials a healthy benefit of the doubt because competently reffing a game is hard. It's not nearly as hard as SoCon officials make it look though.




And after Saturday’s 15-minute review that forever altered the flow of the game, the SoCon on Monday official a statement that admitted multiple significant officiating errors and announced the crew from the Bulldogs-Paladins game had been reprimanded.
The only part of this sentence ^^^ that surprises me is that they were actually reprimanded.

To the original topic, they can't implement changing the clock rules without changing replay rules because the law of unintended consequences would suggest that offenses will try to go even faster between plays trying to hit their minimum play count numbers. But, this means that replay officials will probably end up stopping the game that much more often, likely interrupting the game just to confirm what's been called on the field.

[ElCid]

Just adopt the NFL clock rules (minus the 2 min warning and 12 minute halftime ) and games will be done in 3 hours across the board.

In the NFL, clock continues to run after first down when runner is tackled in bounds.

I could get onboard for the no stop for first downs. Just run the play clock as normal. But as I mentioned above it won't save much time. Media time outs are where the savings will actually come in chunks. Replay should have a time limit as well, but that is game specific. Some games have no replays or very few. Others have too many. It's not a universal common denominator.

The issue is apparently very Div I specific. At least mostly. As mentioned and according to the CBS article, DII and III have no issue with long games in general. Why? Media timeouts most likely. So maybe for the televised games it is an issue. But the big media company article certainly steered the issue away from media delay issues to "player safety."

[FUBeAR]

I usually try to give game officials a healthy benefit of the doubt because competently reffing a game is hard. It's not nearly as hard as SoCon officials make it look though.


The only part of this sentence ^^^ that surprises me is that they were actually reprimanded.

The white hat was fired. He had been a SoCon Official for 17 prior seasons. He really had to be because, as FUBeAR understands, the rest of the crew told the Supervisor of Officials they would refuse to work on his crew (or with him) ever again.

It was worse than even the article describes. He had to overrule the replay official plus his own initial ruling, totally twist replay procedures, and violate several different football rules - possession, forward progress, etc. in order to arrive at the completely f’d up ruling he, ultimately, delivered. He should have been criminally prosecuted (somehow). If the ‘wise guys’ cared enough about the game, he would definitely be wearing a pair of concrete Skechers, at the bottom on the lake on FU’s campus, right about now.

[caribbeanhen]

Funny thing is I’ve never watched one commercial…

[OhioHen]

Funny thing is I’ve never watched one commercial…
Whether we watch them or not, the networks are taking money from the advertisers. As long as they're getting that money, the commercials will continue.

[clenz]

I could get onboard for the no stop for first downs. Just run the play clock as normal. But as I mentioned above it won't save much time. Media time outs are where the savings will actually come in chunks. Replay should have a time limit as well, but that is game specific. Some games have no replays or very few. Others have too many. It's not a universal common denominator.

The issue is apparently very Div I specific. At least mostly. As mentioned and according to the CBS article, DII and III have no issue with long games in general. Why? Media timeouts most likely. So maybe for the televised games it is an issue. But the big media company article certainly steered the issue away from media delay issues to "player safety."
Bingo.

Here is a comp between UNI and the D3 15 minutes up the road from UNI for game lengths

Wartburg - average of 2:40
2:34
2:30
2:26
3:43 - there was a delay in the game to extend the time.
2:42
3:11 - other team's homecoming with extended HT apparently
2:10
2:54
2:35
2:33
2:31
2:50
2:23
3:18 - D3 semifinal on ESPN so extra media timeouts


UNI - average of 3:10
2:57
3:23
3:20
2:48
3:04
3:09
3:15
3:24
3:29
3:00


30 extra minutes for UNI games for no reason. Clocks were stopped in Wartburg games a lot as well because they were just butt ****ing people so a lot of stops after first downs and stops after touchdowns. Average score was like 45-9

It's all media and replays that's making games take longer

[ngineer]

I want to say stupid rule change, but teams would just have to adapt. I could see stopping clock after first OR incomplete pass, but not both. Plus you would have issues with how fast officiating crew is after first downs. I could see some slow walking it.

I would say the best way to shorten games is do away with some media timeouts.

Absolutely, but when will the snowball reach hell $?$?

[NY Crusader 2010]

clenz -- great breakdown.

I think the only other option besides reducing replay delays and media timeouts (which they don't do) would be to shorten halftime from 20 minutes to 12 minutes like the NFL.

[taper]

Complaining about the media timeouts is moot. They pay the bills and D1 football as we know it wouldn't exist without them. Even a decent FCS game has higher production values than an early 90's Superbowl. A good NIL deal pays better than pre-80's NFL salary, even with inflation. If you want a 2.5 hr game with amateur student athletes you should look at local HS or D3 games. I get the complaints about what's happening to D1 but that genie's out of the bottle and isn't going back. If you prefer the old amateur model the best thing you can do is support the programs that still do it that way.

[Gil Dobie]

I really don't care how long games go. I usually dedicate an entire day to my football experience.

[Libertine]

I really don't care how long games go. I usually dedicate an entire day to my football experience.

This. The only thing I have better to do when watching football is watching other football.

[OhioHen]

I really don't care how long games go. I usually dedicate an entire day to my football experience.


This. The only thing I have better to do when watching football is watching other football.
Shorter games mean the ability to watch at least a portion of more games.

[FUBeAR]

Shorter games mean the ability to watch at least a portion of more games.
Subscriptions to ESPN3/ESPN+ and/or a sports-channel robust TV streaming service, an unlimited data plan, high-performance internet / router, and multiple (good) devices enable that … regardless of game length.

[Gil Dobie]

Shorter games mean the ability to watch at least a portion of more games.

I have a 4 hour drive to my game, couple hours at tailgate, enter early to watch warm-ups and a four hour drive after. Pretty much 7am to 10pm. Ready to crash after that.

[nodak651]

I really don't care how long games go. I usually dedicate an entire day to my football experience.

Exactly! The season is short enough as it is. Bizarre that people actually complain about this. Same w baseball. Rules shouldn't be changed for people who don't like football, basically.

The wear and tear on the student athlete argument is stupid as well - there are like 100 guys on each team. If players are playing too much, that's on the coach.

[OhioHen]

I really don't care how long games go. I usually dedicate an entire day to my football experience.


Exactly! The season is short enough as it is. Bizarre that people actually complain about this. Same w baseball. Rules shouldn't be changed for people who don't like football, basically.

The wear and tear on the student athlete argument is stupid as well - there are like 100 guys on each team. If players are playing too much, that's on the coach.

I suspect that wear and tear would be worse with shorter games. Less time to recover between plays, less opportunities for substitutions to take place.

[ElCid]

I suspect that wear and tear would be worse with shorter games. Less time to recover between plays, less opportunities for substitutions to take place.

It isn't about player health. It's about media interests. The narrative is about health.

[Libertine]

Shorter games mean the ability to watch at least a portion of more games.

On any given Saturday in the fall, I probably have three screens going simultaneously and I'm hitting the "back" button on the TV remote during commercials. Shorter games won't make any difference to how many games I watch, just how much I enjoy them.

[Go...gate]

I really don't care how long games go. I usually dedicate an entire day to my football experience.

Exactly!

[caribbeanhen]

On any given Saturday in the fall, I probably have three screens going simultaneously and I'm hitting the "back" button on the TV remote during commercials. Shorter games won't make any difference to how many games I watch, just how much I enjoy them.

I like this

just curious, Do you have Flo sports ?

[kdinva]

Each media timeout is 2.5 minutes.
There are 3 dedicated media timeouts each quarter.
7.5 minutes per quarter for dedicated media timeouts.
30 minutes per game are dedicated to media timeouts.


When watching a SEC game on CBS, I swear some quarters have six or seven media time outs, and NCAA must cap replay reviews at 60 seconds, like suggested earlier.

[clenz]

When watching a SEC game on CBS, I swear some quarters have six or seven media time outs, and NCAA must cap replay reviews at 60 seconds, like suggested earlier.
There are - but only 3 of them are "true media timeouts"

The others are media timeouts but not called media timeouts. They are just "commercial breaks"

[uni88]

There are - but only 3 of them are "true media timeouts"

The others are media timeouts but not called media timeouts. They are just "commercial breaks"

I think of them as Gary Danielson breaks. They're much more enjoyable that way.

[kdinva]

There are - but only 3 of them are "true media timeouts"

The others are media timeouts but not called media timeouts. They are just "commercial breaks"

true: networks will do a quick 60 second break while a player re-adjusts his shoe.....

[Libertine]

I like this

just curious, Do you have Flo sports ?

I'll admit to being a sports masochist but even I'm not subjecting myself to Flo Sports.

I usually have a TV on with network games, a laptop running Fubo, an iPad running ESPN+ and the score ticker going on my phone so I know if there's a better game I'm missing.

[caribbeanhen]

I'll admit to being a sports masochist but even I'm not subjecting myself to Flo Sports.

I usually have a TV on with network games, a laptop running Fubo, an iPad running ESPN+ and the score ticker going on my phone so I know if there's a better game I'm missing.

Thanks and I figured so

Every CAA bigwig should see your response

[CockyGeek]

Get rid of kickoffs. That would cut out 30 minutes of commercials.

[FUBeAR]

Get rid of kickoffs. That would cut out 30 minutes of commercials.
For other reasons … but maybe for this one too … FUBeAR is a proponent of the radical idea of taking all of the ‘Foots’ out of Football.

No kickoffs, no punts, no FG’s, no kicked PAT’s. Alternate rules can be crafted & implemented replacing all of those - except FG’s … don’t need ‘em.

For example …
* PAT - 1 pt = 1 play from the 1 YL / 2 pt = 1 play from the 3 YL / 3 pt = 1 play from the 10 YL
* Kickoff - easy - just start on the 25
* Punt - hardest to replace - apply sliding scale risk/reward to going for it on 4th down depending on combo of position on field and distance to go. So … say 4th & 1 on the opponent’s 45 - Choice - go for it OR give opponent possession 15 yds from current LOS. Lot to think about with this one, but most people are way smarter than FUBeAR. They can figger it out.

Improves safety drastically, shortens games, saves money as it eliminates need for as many as 5 “Specialists” (actually as many as 10 roster spots), maybe 1 or 2 fewer Coaches / Analysts.

And most importantly - No more getting your heart torn out by an f’in Kicker - he had 1 damn job!!!!

[Libertine]

For other reasons … but maybe for this one too … FUBeAR is a proponent of the radical idea of taking all of the ‘Foots’ out of Football.

No kickoffs, no punts, no FG’s, no kicked PAT’s. Alternate rules can be crafted & implemented replacing all of those - except FG’s … don’t need ‘em.

For example …
* PAT - 1 pt = 1 play from the 1 YL / 2 pt = 1 play from the 3 YL / 3 pt = 1 play from the 10 YL
* Kickoff - easy - just start on the 25
* Punt - hardest to replace - apply sliding scale risk/reward to going for it on 4th down depending on combo of position on field and distance to go. So … say 4th & 1 on the opponent’s 45 - Choice - go for it OR give opponent possession 15 yds from current LOS. Lot to think about with this one, but most people are way smarter than FUBeAR. They can figger it out.

Improves safety drastically, shortens games, saves money as it eliminates need for as many as 5 “Specialists” (actually as many as 10 roster spots), maybe 1 or 2 fewer Coaches / Analysts.

And most importantly - No more getting your heart torn out by an f’in Kicker - he had 1 damn job!!!!

So, essentially, take the foot out of football?

[MR. CHICKEN]

........AH'M PAYIN'...$25/$30....WANNA SEE 3-3.5 HOURS WORFF.......💵......BRAWK!

[caribbeanhen]

For other reasons … but maybe for this one too … FUBeAR is a proponent of the radical idea of taking all of the ‘Foots’ out of Football.

No kickoffs, no punts, no FG’s, no kicked PAT’s. Alternate rules can be crafted & implemented replacing all of those - except FG’s … don’t need ‘em.

For example …
* PAT - 1 pt = 1 play from the 1 YL / 2 pt = 1 play from the 3 YL / 3 pt = 1 play from the 10 YL
* Kickoff - easy - just start on the 25
* Punt - hardest to replace - apply sliding scale risk/reward to going for it on 4th down depending on combo of position on field and distance to go. So … say 4th & 1 on the opponent’s 45 - Choice - go for it OR give opponent possession 15 yds from current LOS. Lot to think about with this one, but most people are way smarter than FUBeAR. They can figger it out.

Improves safety drastically, shortens games, saves money as it eliminates need for as many as 5 “Specialists” (actually as many as 10 roster spots), maybe 1 or 2 fewer Coaches / Analysts.

And most importantly - No more getting your heart torn out by an f’in Kicker - he had 1 damn job!!!!

this is discriminatory towards of all the nerdy geeky kid kickers everywhere

[FUBeAR]

So, essentially, take the foot out of football?
Yep - exactly as FUBeAR said… There’s no crying in baseball and no foot in football.

[FUBeAR]

this is discriminatory towards of all the nerdy geeky kid kickers everywhere
Absolutely - them and the nerdy geeky Long Snappers too. Meant to include ‘eliminates 5 specialists who are NOT real Football Players’ in the original post.

Not some kind of “prejudice” though. FUBeAR was a Long Snapper (in addition to his OL duties) and he just nominated his Furman Teams’ Placekicker for the FU Athletics Hall of Fame (shoulda been in long ago).

Just thought a lot about it over the years and don’t really think we should have people pretending to be Football Players who don’t really play Football. It’s kinda like having a Free Throw Shooter - and that’s all they do - in Basketball or maybe a Server in Doubles Tennis (only serves, then watches the rest of the point).

AND…If it saves money, makes the game faster, AND makes it safer, why not give it some serious consideration.

Just have to overcome the powerful Specialists Lobby to make it happen, huh?

[OhioHen]

So, essentially, take the foot out of football?
American football is already primarily "hand egg" anyway.

[OhioHen]

Absolutely - them and the nerdy geeky Long Snappers too. Meant to include ‘eliminates 5 specialists who are NOT real Football Players’ in the original post.


To get to five, you must be including returners as "not real football players" and/or counting a holder who isn't also the punter (in which case it's typically a backup QB).

I typically think of three "specialist" positions - kicker, punter/holder, and long snapper. Most returners also play as wide receivers, running backs, or defensive backs.

[FUBeAR]

To get to five, you must be including returners as "not real football players" and/or counting a holder who isn't also the punter (in which case it's typically a backup QB).

I typically think of three "specialist" positions - kicker, punter/holder, and long snapper. Most returners also play as wide receivers, running backs, or defensive backs.
1) Long Snapper Punts
2) Long Snapper FG’s/XP’s
3) Punter
4) Rugby Punter
5) Short FG/XP Placekicker
6) Long FG Placekicker
7) Deep Kickoff Specialist
8) Onside / Pooch / Sky Kickoff Specialist
9) Holder (not deployed elsewhere…really)

Minimum of 2 (Snapper & Kicker/Punter w/Holder being backup QB et al)
Maximum of all 9 above - each of which are or have been real people/roles of which FUBeAR is aware

9+2 = 11 divided by 2 = 5.5 and rounded down = 5 … Thus… “as many as 5” is fair to say

* Returners are ‘real Football Players’

[caribbeanhen]

Absolutely - them and the nerdy geeky Long Snappers too. Meant to include ‘eliminates 5 specialists who are NOT real Football Players’ in the original post.

Not some kind of “prejudice” though. FUBeAR was a Long Snapper (in addition to his OL duties) and he just nominated his Furman Teams’ Placekicker for the FU Athletics Hall of Fame (shoulda been in long ago).

Just thought a lot about it over the years and don’t really think we should have people pretending to be Football Players who don’t really play Football. It’s kinda like having a Free Throw Shooter - and that’s all they do - in Basketball or maybe a Server in Doubles Tennis (only serves, then watches the rest of the point).

AND…If it saves money, makes the game faster, AND makes it safer, why not give it some serious consideration.

Just have to overcome the powerful Specialists Lobby to make it happen, huh?

Give The Rock a call

[ST_Lawson]

Give The Rock a call

I'm a fan of how the XFL is doing kickoffs now. There's a bit more to it, but essentially, teams line up much closer together, then they can't start moving until the returner catches the ball. From the couple of games I've seen so far, you have a similar result to the "regular" way kickoffs are done, but you don't have everyone getting up to full speed and it seems like it'd be a LOT safer.

The XP/2XP/3XP situation I could take or leave, but it sure is interesting and adds an extra strategic dimension to the game...go for the relatively easy extra 1, or the much more difficult 3?

[MR. CHICKEN]

1) Long Snapper Punts
2) Long Snapper FG’s/XP’s
3) Punter
4) Rugby Punter
5) Short FG/XP Placekicker
6) Long FG Placekicker
7) Deep Kickoff Specialist
8) Onside / Pooch / Sky Kickoff Specialist
9) Holder (not deployed elsewhere…really)

Minimum of 2 (Snapper & Kicker/Punter w/Holder being backup QB et al)
Maximum of all 9 above - each of which are or have been real people/roles of which FUBeAR is aware

9+2 = 11 divided by 2 = 5.5 and rounded down = 5 … Thus… “as many as 5” is fair to say

* Returners are ‘real Football Players’



32739


...TAKE DUH FOOT...OUTTAH FOOTBALL.....AN' REDUCE DUH SKOLLIES/PARTIALS/WALK-ONS...ROSTER SIZE......BAH X AMOUNT......AS ALOT UH PUNT/KICK-OFF COVERAGES PLAYERS..........WHOM AREN'T STARTERS/2nd [email protected] POSITIONS..........WOOD NOT BE NECESSARY.....AWK!

ps.........SAY G'DAY....TA SOME COACHES.....TOO........xwavex.....BRAWK!

[NY Crusader 2010]

1) Long Snapper Punts
2) Long Snapper FG’s/XP’s
3) Punter
4) Rugby Punter
5) Short FG/XP Placekicker
6) Long FG Placekicker
7) Deep Kickoff Specialist
8) Onside / Pooch / Sky Kickoff Specialist
9) Holder (not deployed elsewhere…really)

Minimum of 2 (Snapper & Kicker/Punter w/Holder being backup QB et al)
Maximum of all 9 above - each of which are or have been real people/roles of which FUBeAR is aware

9+2 = 11 divided by 2 = 5.5 and rounded down = 5 … Thus… “as many as 5” is fair to say

* Returners are ‘real Football Players’

Placekickers and punters are the only "non-football players" you would find on a college roster.

Deep kickoff specialists are usually either the punter or maybe a frosh backup kicker whose not as accurate as the upperclassman starter but has a better leg and will sometimes be the guy to attempt 50+ yd FG's. Holders in college are typically third-string QBs or sometimes the punter. In the NFL, the holder is almost always the punter. "Pooch" specialist -- typically the guy with this much skill with his feet is going to be your starting PK.

Long snapper - in college, long snappers are usually guys who weren't able to make the two-deep as a linebacker or tight end and end up focusing more on spending time with PAT and punt teams to hone this skill. Almost never are true long-snapping specialists recruited out of HS. They are guys who were recruited at a mainstream football position, usually LB. In the NFL, however, long-snappers are usually guys who specialized as long snappers in college or who were talented enough to make a 53-man rosters as a special teams player but honed this particular skill while working with their ST group. Most aren't drafted but signed as UFAs, with a couple of late-round exceptions. Almost all NFL long snappers are guys who wouldn't make it in the league at any offensive or defensive position but are able to carve out 15-year careers focusing on this skill.

[FUBeAR]

Placekickers and punters are the only "non-football players" you would find on a college roster.

Long snapper - in college, long snappers are usually guys who weren't able to make the two-deep as a linebacker or tight end and end up focusing more on spending time with PAT and punt teams to hone this skill. Almost never are true long-snapping specialists recruited out of HS. They are guys who were recruited at a mainstream football position, usually LB.That certainly describes college Long Snappers back in the days FUBeAR was spinnin’ it betwixt his lower pipes, but not today.

Long Snappers are Specialists who are recruited by colleges to be Snappers…and nothing more. Mostly PWO type offers perhaps, but the top-ranked kids - ranked by camps / services will get scholarships.

https://www.ncsasports.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Long-Snapper-Guide-1.pdf
https://longsnap.com/2017/06/14/two-hs-snappers-from-2019-class-earn-full-scholarships/
https://rubiolongsnapping.com/player-rankings/?year=2023

Seeing HS Long Snappers getting recruited (over 10 years ago) and watching them (supposedly) covering punts in HS & College is what really got FUBeAR to thinking about if we shouldn’t think about finding a way to only have real Football Players on Football Teams. Oh, also…the ‘final straw’ was in 2015, when a Long Snapper was named a Coaches Pre-Season All SoCon Offensive Lineman because there was no Long Snapper ‘slot’ on the All SoCon Team…and in the ‘horse trading’ that goes along with selecting these Coaches Teams, that School, for some reason, musta been willing to ‘sacrifice’ quite a few other slots for their real Players in order to get their Snapper selected.

It was once as you described and even Punters were often also Position Players. We were all willing to accept 1 nerdy Placekicker as an anomaly, but as the numbers & types of Non-Football-playing Specialists has proliferated, FUBeAR does, seriously, think it’s time for a reckoning.

[taper]

It's funny not calling long snappers real football players. I'm looking at the Superbowl box score and I see the Chief's LS with 5 XP, 2 punts, 2 FG. He had possession of the ball 9 times. That's 7th most out of every player on the field, behind only both team's QB, center, and leading RB. 92 active players on game day, he was 7th. Looks like a real player to me.

[clenz]

It's funny not calling long snappers real football players. I'm looking at the Superbowl box score and I see the Chief's LS with 5 XP, 2 punts, 2 FG. He had possession of the ball 9 times. That's 7th most out of every player on the field, behind only both team's QB, center, and leading RB. 92 active players on game day, he was 7th. Looks like a real player to me.
and the pressure on him literally every time the ball is in his hands.

Every
Single
Time

A QB throws a couple of his passes a foot to high or wide or low and everyone moves on. Shot gun snaps being at a QBs feet or to their side happens on more snaps than is worth counting during the game. No one cares as the game moves one.

If just ONE of his 9 snaps goes to high or low and the ENTIRE game shifts massively.

[FUBeAR]

It's funny not calling long snappers real football players. I'm looking at the Superbowl box score and I see the Chief's LS with 5 XP, 2 punts, 2 FG. He had possession of the ball 9 times. That's 7th most out of every player on the field, behind only both team's QB, center, and leading RB. 92 active players on game day, he was 7th. Looks like a real player to me.
Did you count the Chiefs’ Ball Boys ‘touches’ also? Are they real Football Players?

Current rules do not allow Long Snappers to be ‘covered’ or touched until 1 second after the snap. Snap to Kick time on XP’s & FG’s is barely over 1 second (1.3-1.4ish)…so they are, essentially, non-contact Players on (almost) all Placekicks because the ball is gone before they can be contacted and no coverage is needed.

Remember FUBeAR was a Long Snapper - it’s hard to snap Punts well (XP’s/FG’s are cake) - the ones who do it are great at it and some are even great cover guys…but when it comes down to it, Kickers, Punters, and Snappers are just not Football Players in the same way that all other Position Players (including QB’s) are.

It’s rare for a sport to have so many highly specialized Specialists that participate so sparingly (relatively) and FUBeAR thinks the game could be better, less costly, and safer without them.

[FUBeAR]

and the pressure on him literally every time the ball is in his hands.

Every
Single
Time

A QB throws a couple of his passes a foot to high or wide or low and everyone moves on. Shot gun snaps being at a QBs feet or to their side happens on more snaps than is worth counting during the game. No one cares as the game moves one.

If just ONE of his 9 snaps goes to high or low and the ENTIRE game shifts massively.
No doubt about the PRESSURE - FUBeAR can still see / feel / sense the 2 bad Punt Snaps he had in his career….

1) High School - Completely over our 6-5 tall High Jumper who was also a great Punter (punted for Appy) from our 26 yard line over his height/leap & out the back of the Endzone - 1st Punt / 1st Possession of the game against our cross town rival. Was too geeked because of rivalry and because UNC Tar Heels Coach was there that night - had narrowed it down to 2 Long Snappers and they were going to offer only 1. FUBeAR had the ‘edge’ because he was also possibly an OLman for them and the other guy was NOT a D1 Position Player. Coach left immediately after that snap and they signed the other guy (Long Snapper schollie back in the late 70’s) and we lost the game.

2) College - pinned deep against Clemson. FUBeAR’s feet were in the Endzone. FUBeAR was young, but the Top Defensive Recruit in the country, a True FR, was a little younger. On the other hand he was very big, very fast, very strong, and very mean…and lined up a credit card width off the ball on FUBeAR’s head and a-growlin’ insanely. No rules about not hitting the Long Snapper in those days…TBH, FUBeAR, for the only time in his life on a Football Field, was skeered…really skeered. Only had to snap it 10-12 yards instead of the usual 15. Probably would have gone 30 after going over the Punter’s head though…another Safety, another loss. FUBeAR remained a back-up Long Snapper for the rest of his career after that day.

Never had a bad Placement snap though … but those 2 Punt Snaps will never not haunt FUBeAR.

Anyway - even with all that pressure … doesn’t make it Football. It’s more like doing Bomb Disarming…but that ain’t part of Football.

[NY Crusader 2010]

That certainly describes college Long Snappers back in the days FUBeAR was spinnin’ it betwixt his lower pipes, but not today.

Long Snappers are Specialists who are recruited by colleges to be Snappers…and nothing more. Mostly PWO type offers perhaps, but the top-ranked kids - ranked by camps / services will get scholarships.

https://www.ncsasports.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Long-Snapper-Guide-1.pdf
https://longsnap.com/2017/06/14/two-hs-snappers-from-2019-class-earn-full-scholarships/
https://rubiolongsnapping.com/player-rankings/?year=2023

Seeing HS Long Snappers getting recruited (over 10 years ago) and watching them (supposedly) covering punts in HS & College is what really got FUBeAR to thinking about if we shouldn’t think about finding a way to only have real Football Players on Football Teams. Oh, also…the ‘final straw’ was in 2015, when a Long Snapper was named a Coaches Pre-Season All SoCon Offensive Lineman because there was no Long Snapper ‘slot’ on the All SoCon Team…and in the ‘horse trading’ that goes along with selecting these Coaches Teams, that School, for some reason, musta been willing to ‘sacrifice’ quite a few other slots for their real Players in order to get their Snapper selected.

It was once as you described and even Punters were often also Position Players. We were all willing to accept 1 nerdy Placekicker as an anomaly, but as the numbers & types of Non-Football-playing Specialists has proliferated, FUBeAR does, seriously, think it’s time for a reckoning.

The stereotype of the "geeky" kicker has always been there and I wouldn't even say it's totally inaccurate. Every once in a while you'll have the loony soccer player that gets coaxed into trying out for the HS or college team (in HS typically b/c the team doesn't have anyone that can kick at all). Most HS kickers are "real football players" (for that level) who just happen to be the one guy who can semi-competently make an extra point. And the punter just happens to be the guy who with the biggest leg -- often neither are true specialists, they just take on the extra duty in addition to playing another position. And many DI college kickers were decent athletes on their football teams in HS but obviously nowhere near close to DI material at any other position besides the kicking specialist dept.

Same goes for specialists in other sports. My cousin was the starting goalie at Towson in lacrosse. Obviously, he was one of the best 2 or 3 goalies in the state of MD in high school, but he also would've been above average as an attackman at that level and athletcs enough he could've played the field in DIII. He played goalie because that was his strength. At Towson, he wouldn't have even been competitive as an attackman because the skill level is so much more elevated.

[NY Crusader 2010]

No doubt about the PRESSURE - FUBeAR can still see / feel / sense the 2 bad Punt Snaps he had in his career….

1) High School - Completely over our 6-5 tall High Jumper who was also a great Punter (punted for Appy) from our 26 yard line over his height/leap & out the back of the Endzone - 1st Punt / 1st Possession of the game against our cross town rival. Was too geeked because of rivalry and because UNC Tar Heels Coach was there that night - had narrowed it down to 2 Long Snappers and they were going to offer only 1. FUBeAR had the ‘edge’ because he was also possibly an OLman for them and the other guy was NOT a D1 Position Player. Coach left immediately after that snap and they signed the other guy (Long Snapper schollie back in the late 70’s) and we lost the game.

2) College - pinned deep against Clemson. FUBeAR’s feet were in the Endzone. FUBeAR was young, but the Top Defensive Recruit in the country, a True FR, was a little younger. On the other hand he was very big, very fast, very strong, and very mean…and lined up a credit card width off the ball on FUBeAR’s head and a-growlin’ insanely. No rules about not hitting the Long Snapper in those days…TBH, FUBeAR, for the only time in his life on a Football Field, was skeered…really skeered. Only had to snap it 10-12 yards instead of the usual 15. Probably would have gone 30 after going over the Punter’s head though…another Safety, another loss. FUBeAR remained a back-up Long Snapper for the rest of his career after that day.

Never had a bad Placement snap though … but those 2 Punt Snaps will never not haunt FUBeAR.

Anyway - even with all that pressure … doesn’t make it Football. It’s more like doing Bomb Disarming…but that ain’t part of Football.

These are great stories, keep 'em coming! Long offseason.

[FUBeAR]

The stereotype of the "geeky" kicker has always been there and I wouldn't even say it's totally inaccurate. Every once in a while you'll have the loony soccer player that gets coaxed into trying out for the HS or college team (in HS typically b/c the team doesn't have anyone that can kick at all). Most HS kickers are "real football players" (for that level) who just happen to be the one guy who can semi-competently make an extra point. And the punter just happens to be the guy who with the biggest leg -- often neither are true specialists, they just take on the extra duty in addition to playing another position. And many DI college kickers were decent athletes on their football teams in HS but obviously nowhere near close to DI material at any other position besides the kicking specialist dept.

Same goes for specialists in other sports. My cousin was the starting goalie at Towson in lacrosse. Obviously, he was one of the best 2 or 3 goalies in the state of MD in high school, but he also would've been above average as an attackman at that level and athletcs enough he could've played the field in DIII. He played goalie because that was his strength. At Towson, he wouldn't have even been competitive as an attackman because the skill level is so much more elevated.
Sound like Football is a little different down here.

The middle school team FUBeAR used to Coach before moving up to the HS Team (this was back in 2005 - 2012 time) had a dedicated Punter and Kicker….from 7th grade thru HS. One ended up Playing for U of Houston and a few cups of coffee in the NFL, but a stalwart Punter in the CFL. The other played at UAB and then was All CFL before becoming the Chargers Punter / Kickoff guy for several years. Both great kids and both probably could have been position Players in HS because they were good athletes, BUT…they were Specialists, i.e., didn’t want to / couldn’t afford for them to get hurt.

This is more the norm - not the Specialist becoming Pros (oh yeah, our Long Snapper - also a Specialist snapped at Air Force and has had several tryouts in the NFL - last shot, probably, was with Houston last year…but their guy has been there forever and is known to be a top guy) …. It’s the NORM, rather than the exception, in GA for larger HS’s to have at least 3 Specialists on the roster…just the way it is. Needs to change. Great kids … love ‘em …. Glad they were able to do what they have done … but shouldn’t be ‘a thing.’

[Libertine]

In college, your kicker and punter are often some of the best all-around natural athletes on the team. They're often really good at other sports as well.

[FUBeAR]

In college, your kicker and punter are often some of the best all-around natural athletes on the team. They're often really good at other sports as well.
Yep - would agree. Doesn’t make ‘em (real) Football Players though.

[MR. CHICKEN]

......KICKERS AN' SNAPPERS....WEAR HELMETS & PADS.....LIKE DUH GEICO ADD....."IFIN' IT'S IN A YARD....AN' THERE'S UH SALE.......IT'S UH YARD SALE".............🦎.............BRAWK!

[Ridge1982]

I feel like everything is being dumbed down for the short attention span generation.

[Bisonoline]

That certainly describes college Long Snappers back in the days FUBeAR was spinnin’ it betwixt his lower pipes, but not today.

Long Snappers are Specialists who are recruited by colleges to be Snappers…and nothing more. Mostly PWO type offers perhaps, but the top-ranked kids - ranked by camps / services will get scholarships.

https://www.ncsasports.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Long-Snapper-Guide-1.pdf
https://longsnap.com/2017/06/14/two-hs-snappers-from-2019-class-earn-full-scholarships/
https://rubiolongsnapping.com/player-rankings/?year=2023

Seeing HS Long Snappers getting recruited (over 10 years ago) and watching them (supposedly) covering punts in HS & College is what really got FUBeAR to thinking about if we shouldn’t think about finding a way to only have real Football Players on Football Teams. Oh, also…the ‘final straw’ was in 2015, when a Long Snapper was named a Coaches Pre-Season All SoCon Offensive Lineman because there was no Long Snapper ‘slot’ on the All SoCon Team…and in the ‘horse trading’ that goes along with selecting these Coaches Teams, that School, for some reason, musta been willing to ‘sacrifice’ quite a few other slots for their real Players in order to get their Snapper selected.

It was once as you described and even Punters were often also Position Players. We were all willing to accept 1 nerdy Placekicker as an anomaly, but as the numbers & types of Non-Football-playing Specialists has proliferated, FUBeAR does, seriously, think it’s time for a reckoning.

Wonder when the LS came in to play? When I played I was the center AND the LS. Oh that position wasnt called LS. It was center. It was part of what we did.

[Libertine]

Wonder when the LS came in to play?

The 80's.

[ElCid]

This guy gets it. Did anyone notice shorter games, more commercials, etc.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/uclas-chip-kelly-takes-dig-ncaa-new-clock-rule

"UCLA Bruins head coach Chip Kelly made sure to voice his displeasure with a new NCAA clock rule during his opening game against Coastal Carolina.

"This new rule, it’s crazy," Kelly said during his interview before running off the field for halftime. "We had four drives in the first half. This game goes fast. Hope you guys are selling a lot of commercials."

Yeah. We all knew this was the intent all along. It had zero to do with "player safety."

[TribeGuy]

Glad you brought this up El Cid.

This is my totally negative post:

I left the NFL for 3 of many reasons:
First - "Star-ball". Football is a team sport. Not just a QB, RB, or ball handler.

Second - "Commercialization". There is less and less gridiron action. I'll trade longer halftime, quarter time breaks for the Sunday morning DVR of my favorite West Coast FCS teams. However, football is also a game against the clock. If a team does not have depth, it will face pressure as the clock continues to roll. (I am against blood-sport - player injury). El Cid is correct: This was the intent of broadcasters and the NCAA all along. To say it was for player safety is cynical.

Third - "Viewer Experience". Running commercials up to just before a snap, ruins my sight lines of play formations, side-line platooning, and real-time action due to replays making up for lost info during breaks.

I will try to stay positive about my beloved FCS, but it's becoming increasingly difficult. THANKS FOR READING MY "diatribe".

[ElCid]

Glad you brought this up El Cid.

This is my totally negative post:

I left the NFL for 3 of many reasons:
First - "Star-ball". Football is a team sport. Not just a QB, RB, or ball handler.

Second - "Commercialization". There is less and less gridiron action. I'll trade longer halftime, quarter time breaks for the Sunday morning DVR of my favorite West Coast FCS teams. However, football is also a game against the clock. If a team does not have depth, it will face pressure as the clock continues to roll. (I am against blood-sport - player injury). El Cid is correct: This was the intent of broadcasters and the NCAA all along. To say it was for player safety is cynical.

Third - "Viewer Experience". Running commercials up to just before a snap, ruins my sight lines of play formations, side-line platooning, and real-time action due to replays making up for lost info during breaks.

I will try to stay positive about my beloved FCS, but it's becoming increasingly difficult. THANKS FOR READING MY "diatribe".

You nailed it. FCS football is enjoyable to watch. P5 or NFL, not so much anymore. FCS still has a small school feel about it. And that includes all the big FCS schools as well. It's an event, not just a contract and revenue generator. Once you go those routes, you lose the charm and resulting grassroots support over time. And you can't survive in the long run when don't have that. All those conferences and ADs chasing only $ don't get it. That's not to say steady $ and meeting budgets is not somehow required. But it is a matter of priority that is key.

[Reign of Terrier]

The NFL has cut down on commercial breaks, and in their media rights contract they recently stipulated that they can only do a maximum of 8 per half. Because the NCAA doesn't negotiate its rights as a block and because these rights were negotiated pre-this-rule-change, that's why the commercials are awful. I think conferences, like the NFL will agree with consumer sentiment because there's too much commercials and will eventually make a change. I dunno if it'll be this year though.

Edit: also this entire thread conflates "length of the game" with "time it takes for the game to be done" and not "how many plays are run." The rule change won't stop the former, but it'll likely reduce the latter by like 10 plays per game (or something like that). For a consumer/viewer of the game, the rule change sucks for the reasons mentioned in this thread, but for player safety, it's probably fine.

[ngineer]

I want to say stupid rule change, but teams would just have to adapt. I could see stopping clock after first OR incomplete pass, but not both. Plus you would have issues with how fast officiating crew is after first downs. I could see some slow walking it.

I would say the best way to shorten games is do away with some media timeouts. HAH!! That'll be the day!

[TribeGuy]

First Down! FCS fans love their game.

I easily wax romantic. This 6-yr old with my father, family, and friends learned football. Small, local, and proud.
Big excitement for our little town and our campus.

The charm of the event is the heart of the matter. GO FCS!!!

[TribeGuy]

Great point about contract negotiations. Change is a-coming.

Probably, like you, I do not want to see a dramatic shift in the culture of the FCS.

Player safety is non-negotiable.

But... changes in the rules of the game effect everything from the athletes to the sport to the community.

"...and now for something completely different..." GO Tribe!!! good football, terriers, see ya Saturday!

[lucchesicourt]

Actually the best way to shorten qames is leave the rules alone and play 12 minute quarters instead of 15 minutes Why mess with rules. Just change the time. t really insn't rocket science that you need to meet to discuss rule changes when all you have to do is change the lenth of the game. Are our e3xecs really that ridiculous to need to have a meeting to shorten a game?

[ElCid]

Player safety is non-negotiable.


This is a red herring. It gives them cover for their true intent. Someone just shouting "safety!", especially on such a subjective issue, is just using it as misdirection. The powers that be simply want a cookie cutter game flow and reliable commercial time. Sure everyone is subject to the same rule, but I suspect that it will also impact results. I'm waiting for it to be highlighted as impacting certain teams more than others. It is not unlike the killer blow that the new tackling rules, also cited for safety, has had on option teams. Lots of big people hated the equalizing impact that the option provided. They got their way. We will see.

[Reign of Terrier]

My favorite el cid trope is "no public institution actually believes anything they state publicly, I know their intentions and how the world works better!"

[ElCid]

My favorite el cid trope is "no public institution actually believes anything they state publicly, I know their intentions and how the world works better!"

Everyone knows their intentions. That some don't understand it simply points to ignorance, real or self imposed by choice. I also never said I know how the world works better, but I do know why people are motivated to do certain things and how institutions work. I'm sorry that offends your seemingly blind faith.

[Reign of Terrier]

It's not blind faith to take institutions at their word, especially when their actions, intentions, and published data reflects their word. You're confusing cynicism with understanding motives. "Everybody knows" is not an argument.

[ElCid]

It's not blind faith to take institutions at their word, especially when their actions, intentions, and published data reflects their word. You're confusing cynicism with understanding motives. "Everybody knows" is not an argument.

You are confusing cynicism with realism. Believing it is cynicism is simply due to ignorance. Knowing it is realism is based on experience. Oh, I'm always an optimistic realist, in that maybe, for once, people and organizations really do have altruistic motives, but I get disappointed all the time. Sorry you can't grasp that.

[Reign of Terrier]

You are confusing cynicism with realism. Believing it is cynicism is simply due to ignorance. Knowing it is realism is based on experience. Oh, I'm always an optimistic realist, in that maybe, for once, people and organizations really do have altruistic motives, but I get disappointed all the time. Sorry you can't grasp that.

All you did was say "I'm right and being realistic" without actually giving an argument. I could give you countless examples of organizations and people having values that are altruistic. It's just simple to be cynical and think you're being realistic, when you're just closing your ears and saying "bad thing and you're wrong lalalalala"

[ElCid]

I've been bouncing around a bunch of games all afternoon. I think if there was any doubt that the new rule regarding game time had to do with primarily cramming as many commercials in as possible, we can put this to rest. The commercial times has been extended greatly. It is utterly ridiculous. Even the ESPN+ games have dragged due to more commercials. That corporate influence has somehow impacted the introduction of game rule changes is disturbing. That they, the NCAA, has tried to deflect this by citing other reasons is just as disturbing. But we all know $ rules when you don't have people stand up to its corrupting influence.