Patriot League: Two Teams, Two Directions

[DFW HOYA]

Just one year ago, two 2-8 teams met with last place on the line in the Patriot League: Fordham at Georgetown. Fordham won late, 38-30.

Since then, Fordham has won 9 of its last 11 and is going to the playoffs. Georgetown has lost 10 of 11 and is widely expected to make it 11 of 12 after Saturday's game, the first 10 loss season in 120 years of Hoya football. Both schools share a common bloodline in the sport, play in urban areas and have generally substandard facilities, but Fordham will have won two PL titles in five years...and Georgetown has won three PL games in four years. What gives?

For those who have seen these two teams play, what is distinguishing the rise of one and the continued struggle of the other? Instead of just saying "all of them", is there a specific issue--recruiting, on-field talent, player development, scheduling, play calling, etc.--that you can point to this season that Fordham has solved and/or Georgetown has not? Both teams are young, so that isn't it, and I don't buy the argument that Fordham's academic index gives it an unusual advantage.

Comments welcome.

[colgate13]

I'm certain it's about money.

I also strongly suspect they get institutional support that the Hoyas don't. By that I mostly mean that their admissions office will likely let in kids that relative to their regular student body are less competitive. Georgetown's standards relative to their regular student body are likely higher - much higher. I'd also love to know how many 'slots' (dedicated football w/aid admission spots) the Hoyas have each year. I would strongly guess it is significantly less than the rest of the league.

Basically, I think you're trying to play in the PL with too many 'regular' Georgetown students that also want to play football and not enough football players that want to go to Georgetown.

[JoltinJoe]

I don't have an answer but I'm sure money has a lot to do with it.

Whatever. I'd love to see the Hoyas turn it around. The Fordham/HC game was rocking. It would be great to get that going with Georgetown too.

Of course, that sounds great now, but when Georgetown starts beating us, we won't like it as much.

Parity has its benefits and its downsides.

[DetroitFlyer]

I have to think that GT's academic standards are impacting success on the field. I do not think it is about Money. Dayton spends far less on football than Fordham, but we defeated Fordham, at Fordham.

Dayton, as I have pointed out many times, has excellent students on the football team. Our number of Academic All Americans is far higher than any PL or Ivy League school. I have no way of knowing, but I'm betting that many of our kids would have struggled to gain admittance to PL or Ivy schools. Good for Dayton, bad for Georgetown and the PL. The AI is tough enough, but I sense that GT pushes the envelope a bit further.

The next thing I would suspect is coaching. Frankly, I do not know much about GT's coaching, but I have seen what a great coach can do with players that are said to be undersized, slow, etc. We all know what Jim Harbaugh did at USD for example, ( another school that spends less on football than any team in the PL ). Mike Kelly is a legend at Dayton. Stacy Adams is really turning things around at Valpo, ( currently 5-5 on the season ). We'll see how Kerwin Bell fares at JU. Fordham's coach has enjoyed success at other programs, and now he seems to be getting it done at Fordham.

It is certainly not impossible to enjoy success academically and on the field, but it is more difficult. I think that GT needs to revisit admissions and take a long hard look at the coaching situation.

[OLPOP]

Evaluation of talent also plays a role. Bob Benson Pursued my son and assured us he would be admitted. Kelly withdrew the offer, telling our H.S. coach "the kid is sloppy." He now starts for Fordham.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

An answer like this is always going to point to a variety of factors: there isn't just one silver bullet. Having said that, the restrictive academic index is a unique challenge for Georgetown football in regards to the rest of the league. I like to think of it as the following: rather than being able to recruit on the top half of the bell curve, you're recruiting in the top 1/8th. You may be able to get the occasional Bassuener, Buzbee or Ononibaku with the AI the way it is, but it's the day-to-day players that you need to get - linebackers, "O" linemen, defensive backs - the "depth guys". Recruiting only in the top 1/8th for those people is wickedly hard, especially without FBS leagues or Ivy mystique.

This evidence is anecdotal, but I keep pointing to the Ivy League's experience before they moved to the current "banding" system. The highest AI numbers would be from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. From 1988 to 2000, Harvard had two winning seasons, Yale had six, and Princeton has eight: since 2001, Harvard has had no fewer than 7 wins a year, Yale has had four non-losing seasons (and has clinched a fifth this year), as has Princeton (though they will have no better than a .500 record this season). All have won at least one Ivy Championship since 2001.

Something else to consider is that in the Patriot League, the admissions department has powers they don't have at other schools to work with athletics to get athletes in there. If you have an admissions department that is hell-bent to to have all football players with 1400 SAT's and damn the competitiveness, they can do this. Any coach has to maneuver this potential minefield to get recruits.

Although money is part of the equation, what can be done to lift Georgetown football can loosely be classified as "AI reform" and "institutional change". Both will be needed.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/gu/sports/m-footbl/auto_wide/1356936.jpeg

[PeacockRaider]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$And basic fact that the administration wants football to succeed at Fordham, say might not be said at Georgetown. DFW I feel your pain, I often found myself comparing St Peter's and Iona similar situations, other than Iona has a nicer on field stadium. A year ago St Peter's beat Iona
35-21. Now Iona is 7-2 will likely win the MAAC has games against New Hampshire and Cal Poly, and Saint Peter's no longer has a team. If the administration is behind football and gives them a chance to succeed there is no reason they couldn't, especially at a school like Georgetown. Unfortunately for Georgetown you have to ask how committed are the higher ups to football

[JoltinJoe]

Evaluation of talent also plays a role. Bob Benson Pursued my son and assured us he would be admitted. Kelly withdrew the offer, telling our H.S. coach "the kid is sloppy." He now starts for Fordham.

If it is true that he was sloppy, he sure learned quickly. xnodx xthumbsupx

[Fordham]

Boy, that's a great question, DFW, and I can't imagine the frustration I'd feel if the tables were turned. There's so many things that have played a role that you can't just pinpoint one thing, imo, but I'd agree w/13 that if you had to pick the one that means the most, it would be $$.

I've seen the reports that have us listed as #2 in FCS for spending at $3.4 (+ or - ) and you guys much further down the list at $1.66MM. What goes into that number? We're obviously not paying THAT much to staff or on the overall program than you guys so I would assume that this is how much more in aid we give out than you guys as well as possibly a much higher recruiting budget.

I do know that Masella's staff have known from the get go that they have to recruit at the margins, meaning find the very wealthy/those who have a connection to Fordham, who are capable of/willing to pay(ing) their own way ... or find the kids, who because of their family's finances, won't have to pay anything, or much of anything, to go here. That's why you've really seen us a) go all over the country to recruit and b) focus that recruiting in both the inner city as well rural areas where we're more likely to find kids who won't have to pay to attend. I can't say I've followed your recruiting as intensely as I have our own, but while you guys have been recruiting nationally, do you think you've targeted that recruiting as much as we have?

As far as the other factors, I think they all have played a role:

*A down year in the PL - other than HC, I don't think any other PL teams are as strong as they were in previous years. This has been huge for a team like ours that played so many frosh & sophs since they were able to develop confidence and improve tremendously throughout the season.

*Admissions - 13 certainly could be right and this could be playing a role. I have no idea and without one of us working at either school, I don't know that anyone here would know definitively or to what extent, but it certainly seems a likely one.

*AI - there's no doubt that in comparing our two schools, this has to be mentioned as one of the key reasons. The impact of this is less so with every other school than yours (not saying it doesn't have ANY impact there as well but just less so and it's certainly most dramatic in comparison w/Gtown).

*Coaching - we obviously got a steal w/Masella/Argast and crew. I'm not knocking Kelly by any means but it's clear that our guys had a plan that was implemented on day 1 when they arrived and not only are they very good at on the field coaching but they also were/are intimately aware of FCS level football from their days at UMASS, CCSU & Boston U. EDIT: As I write that I'm reminded of a conversation I had with our AD during the interview process that led to Masella's hiring. We were talking about Brian White, a former Fordham GA, who was OC at Wisconsin, who we were hoping to get interested in our job, and our AD talked about how important it was to hire a guy who has coached in (then) I-AA and the ridiculous process (paperwork mostly) involved in getting a kid through the financial aid process. It didn't hit me until writing this how important a factor that this can be and that our AD was dead on with his rationale. I don't know Kelly's pre-Navy resume, so maybe he had it too but now knowing the ins and outs of this process could have had an impact on his ability to hit the ground running when first hired.

[Franks Tanks]

I have to think that GT's academic standards are impacting success on the field. I do not think it is about Money. Dayton spends far less on football than Fordham, but we defeated Fordham, at Fordham.

Dayton, as I have pointed out many times, has excellent students on the football team. Our number of Academic All Americans is far higher than any PL or Ivy League school. I have no way of knowing, but I'm betting that many of our kids would have struggled to gain admittance to PL or Ivy schools. Good for Dayton, bad for Georgetown and the PL. The AI is tough enough, but I sense that GT pushes the envelope a bit further.The next thing I would suspect is coaching. Frankly, I do not know much about GT's coaching, but I have seen what a great coach can do with players that are said to be undersized, slow, etc. We all know what Jim Harbaugh did at USD for example, ( another school that spends less on football than any team in the PL ). Mike Kelly is a legend at Dayton. Stacy Adams is really turning things around at Valpo, ( currently 5-5 on the season ). We'll see how Kerwin Bell fares at JU. Fordham's coach has enjoyed success at other programs, and now he seems to be getting it done at Fordham.

It is certainly not impossible to enjoy success academically and on the field, but it is more difficult. I think that GT needs to revisit admissions and take a long hard look at the coaching situation.

Thats because classes at Dayton are obviously easier. Less qualified students, yet more academic all-americans--- sounds fishy to me xsmiley_wix

[carney2]

Commitment!

[TheValleyRaider]

It sounds to me like a lack of real institutional support. Football is a high-profile sport. You have to treat it like a high-profile sport. Football at Georgetown is shunted to the side and treated like the crazy uncle in the family. A lot of that is money. The administration needs to be willing to put out the money into recruiting, facilities, promotion. For example, the scheduling of the Men's BBall home opener the same day as Senior Day? Bad call. The BBall team can pick and choose their opener in a way that few schools can, Georgetown needs to be on the ball better for that.

I have to think, if the administration and athletics department scouered their alumni lists, there'd be at least a handful that, for a substantial sum of money they could provide, would be willing to have their name affixed to the stadium. "Multi-Sport Field" doesn't have the same cache as "Patrick Ewing Field", for example (not that Ewing would donate, I'm just throwing out a name).

I actually disagree with LFN regarding name-recognition. Georgetown has a name-recognition level much higher than anyone else in the League, if for no other reason than because of their Basketball team, but also because they are a high-profile school in a high-profile city. The Georgetown name is more recognizable to the average person than anyone else in the League. They have to be able to sell that to recruits. Recruiting is hard, especially for schools in our position. Fordham (the poster, not the school) seems to be on to it when he talks about the good coaches the Rams have. Maybe Kelly's the guy, maybe he's not.

Just some thoughts xtwocentsx

[DetroitFlyer]

Thats because classes at Dayton are obviously easier. Less qualified students, yet more academic all-americans--- sounds fishy to me xsmiley_wix


Good thing too, or I would have never made it.... :D

I doubt that the classes are any easier, but I do know that Dayton devotes a significant amount of resources to ensuring academic success for student-athletes. Dayton really wants these kids to excel in the classroom and on the field. I have no sense how other schools do this, but Dayton's 95% GSR, ( entire athletic program and something like 4th in the nation ), do not occur by chance. Dayton focuses heavily on this aspect of athletics and the numbers bear that out across the board.

What this tells me is that the AI in the PL, and especially at GT, may just be too difficult to overcome. Keep in mind that the Ivy League, Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. are all chasing these kids.... Dayton has a connection to Northwestern and I think we get kids that were not quite Northwestern material.... It is certainly no mystery why the FBS schools that focus on academics struggle to be consistently competitive in the world of State U FBS football.... ( Not many "General Studies" majors on the roster at Georgetown or Stanford ).

Here is the bottom line.... Whatever admissions model Dayton is using seems to work for FCS football. We land a ton of tweeners, and essentially develop them into FCS football players. Academic success at Dayton? Exhibit "A":

4.0 BC Senior safety and captain Brandon Cramer has never earned anything less than an "A" in the classroom and has played almost every down on defense since arriving on campus. A two-time ESPN The Magazine Academic All-American (with great prospects to be a third), he is a finalist for the National Football Foundation's Draddy Trophy, sometimes known as "the Academic Heisman." As a finalist, he has qualified for an $18,000 post-graduate scholarship. He has been third on the team in tackles the last two seasons (52 last year in nine games) and led UD with three interceptions in 2006. This year, he is tied for team honors in interceptions (2) and pass break ups (6) and is fifth in tackles (49).

GREAT GRAD RATES UD's 96 score in the 2006 GSR (Graduation Success Rate) is the fifth-best in NCAA Division I football. Fellow PFL member Davidson was atop the rankings with 100, followed by Navy and William & Mary (98), and Furman (97). Boston College and UD were next at 96. Other schools with APR's above 90 were Bucknell (95), Stanford (94), Air Force, Duke and Villanova (93). As an institution, UD's overall GSR of 95 tied for the fourth-best score.

GOTTA PLAY SMART The University of Dayton placed a league-best 14 players on the 2006 Academic All-Pioneer Football League team. It was the fourth straight year UD had the most players on the PFL Academic team. Since the league's origin in 1993, over a quarter (138 of 509) of the PFL All-Academic selections have been Flyers. UD also had 64 players on the PFL Academic Honor Roll (3.0 GPA or better). That was 24 better than the next-best school.

HITTING THE BOOKS The Dayton football program has produced 13 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-Americans since the 2000 season. That's most at any level of college football. Safety Brandon Cramer was named a First Team ESPN The Magazine Academic All-America in 2006, after being named to the second team in 2005. In the history of the Academic All-America program, UD has had 45 football Academic All-Americans. Among schools currently playing Division I football, only Nebraska (81) and Notre Dame (46) have had more. UD has had at least one football player named Academic All-American in 15 of the last 16 years. UD had five players named to the 2005 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-District Team, the most of any school in the district for the fifth straight year. At least twelve Flyers were nominated for Academic All-America in each of the last four years (16 this season).

THE CREAM DOES RISE TO THE TOP UD's 2007 football roster includes a number of what some might call "over-achievers." Forty-nine current Flyers were in the National Honor Society, and 99 were team captains in some sport. Twenty-six captained two different teams, and 13 were three-sport captains in high school.



It is virtually imposible to believe that GT could not land these types of players, IF THEY WANTED TO.... Something seems to be keeping them out of GT.... Maybe it is the AI, maybe it is the ability to recognize the tweeners that can become FCS players. One thing seems certain, if Dayton can do it, GT should be able to as well.

[Franks Tanks]

Good thing too, or I would have never made it.... :D

I doubt that the classes are any easier, but I do know that Dayton devotes a significant amount of resources to ensuring academic success for student-athletes. Dayton really wants these kids to excel in the classroom and on the field. I have no sense how other schools do this, but Dayton's 95% GSR, ( entire athletic program and something like 4th in the nation ), do not occur by chance. Dayton focuses heavily on this aspect of athletics and the numbers bear that out across the board.

What this tells me is that the AI in the PL, and especially at GT, may just be too difficult to overcome. Keep in mind that the Ivy League, Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, etc. are all chasing these kids.... Dayton has a connection to Northwestern and I think we get kids that were not quite Northwestern material.... It is certainly no mystery why the FBS schools that focus on academics struggle to be consistently competitive in the world of State U FBS football.... ( Not many "General Studies" majors on the roster at Georgetown or Stanford ).

Here is the bottom line.... Whatever admissions model Dayton is using seems to work for FCS football. We land a ton of tweeners, and essentially develop them into FCS football players. Academic success at Dayton? Exhibit "A":

4.0 BC Senior safety and captain Brandon Cramer has never earned anything less than an "A" in the classroom and has played almost every down on defense since arriving on campus. A two-time ESPN The Magazine Academic All-American (with great prospects to be a third), he is a finalist for the National Football Foundation's Draddy Trophy, sometimes known as "the Academic Heisman." As a finalist, he has qualified for an $18,000 post-graduate scholarship. He has been third on the team in tackles the last two seasons (52 last year in nine games) and led UD with three interceptions in 2006. This year, he is tied for team honors in interceptions (2) and pass break ups (6) and is fifth in tackles (49).

GREAT GRAD RATES UD's 96 score in the 2006 GSR (Graduation Success Rate) is the fifth-best in NCAA Division I football. Fellow PFL member Davidson was atop the rankings with 100, followed by Navy and William & Mary (98), and Furman (97). Boston College and UD were next at 96. Other schools with APR's above 90 were Bucknell (95), Stanford (94), Air Force, Duke and Villanova (93). As an institution, UD's overall GSR of 95 tied for the fourth-best score.

GOTTA PLAY SMART The University of Dayton placed a league-best 14 players on the 2006 Academic All-Pioneer Football League team. It was the fourth straight year UD had the most players on the PFL Academic team. Since the league's origin in 1993, over a quarter (138 of 509) of the PFL All-Academic selections have been Flyers. UD also had 64 players on the PFL Academic Honor Roll (3.0 GPA or better). That was 24 better than the next-best school.

HITTING THE BOOKS The Dayton football program has produced 13 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-Americans since the 2000 season. That's most at any level of college football. Safety Brandon Cramer was named a First Team ESPN The Magazine Academic All-America in 2006, after being named to the second team in 2005. In the history of the Academic All-America program, UD has had 45 football Academic All-Americans. Among schools currently playing Division I football, only Nebraska (81) and Notre Dame (46) have had more. UD has had at least one football player named Academic All-American in 15 of the last 16 years. UD had five players named to the 2005 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-District Team, the most of any school in the district for the fifth straight year. At least twelve Flyers were nominated for Academic All-America in each of the last four years (16 this season).

THE CREAM DOES RISE TO THE TOP UD's 2007 football roster includes a number of what some might call "over-achievers." Forty-nine current Flyers were in the National Honor Society, and 99 were team captains in some sport. Twenty-six captained two different teams, and 13 were three-sport captains in high school.



It is virtually imposible to believe that GT could not land these types of players, IF THEY WANTED TO.... Something seems to be keeping them out of GT.... Maybe it is the AI, maybe it is the ability to recognize the tweeners that can become FCS players. One thing seems certain, if Dayton can do it, GT should be able to as well.


You know i was joking Flyer, it is quite an accomplishment that Dayton can recruit and develop such high quality student athletes. Why doesnt Georgetown do it? They dont try hard enough (ie they dont spend enough money) and I dont think they have the right coach either. G-Town needs a young energetic program builder.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I actually disagree with LFN regarding name-recognition. Georgetown has a name-recognition level much higher than anyone else in the League, if for no other reason than because of their Basketball team, but also because they are a high-profile school in a high-profile city. The Georgetown name is more recognizable to the average person than anyone else in the League. They have to be able to sell that to recruits. Recruiting is hard, especially for schools in our position.

I agree that their recruiting is easier due to the unique things they bring to the table academically (unparalleled internships in government, world-class political teachers, etc.) But then, wouldn't that shift even further towards some sort of AI reform as being necessary to help matters? Looking at Harvard is especially instructive: 2 winning seasons from 1988-2000, and not a single losing season since 2001. Yes, institutional support is necessary too, but you can't ignore AI reform in the Ivy as being a big part of it.

[TheValleyRaider]

I agree that their recruiting is easier due to the unique things they bring to the table academically (unparalleled internships in government, world-class political teachers, etc.) But then, wouldn't that shift even further towards some sort of AI reform as being necessary to help matters? Looking at Harvard is especially instructive: 2 winning seasons from 1988-2000, and not a single losing season since 2001. Yes, institutional support is necessary too, but you can't ignore AI reform in the Ivy as being a big part of it.

I was just talking about the "mystique" factor. I think they have it, or at least, are much closer to having it than anyone else in the League.

[Model Citizen]

is there a specific issue

I'm commenting even though I've only seen Fordham play this year.

If you're limiting me to one issue, it would be recruiting. The other issues, of course, affect recruiting.

--How many h.s. kids want to run an option, when your option hasn't been working? Will you get the 2,000 yard rusher or the quarterback with the great arm? Too many spread and I-formation programs out there more attractive to the best athletes.

--Georgetown is competing for recruits with the Ivy and Patriot League schools. Yet your Hoyas probably can't match the competition's financial aid packages very often. Need to put more $ into equivalencies. I'd be interested to hear from the athletic director about why he/she put the Hoyas into the Patriot without a plan to offer Patriot level funding. I guess GU didn't learn from Davidson's experience.

--Facilities at GU not up to par. Not impressive for recruiting.

--What about recruiting budget? You've seen the link on the GU web site that lists coaches' recruiting territories. When I first saw it, I thought it was a list of federal court districts. No way Georgetown even comes close to covering those areas. Somehow, your recruiters need to get out of New England and get into the trenches of the South, West, and Midwest.

Smart kids who can play at this level don't grow on trees in northern Virginia. You need to recruit more effectively on a national basis, just like the Ivies.

The Hoyas probably use a recruiting service to id prospects. Well, they need to either follow up properly or find a new service. I'm especially unimpressed with GU's production in Ohio (three so-so players). Why can't your coaches sell Georgetown as a better alternative to Dayton? ...besides UD's merit aid/cheating stuff. xwhistlex

[89Hen]

Georgetown has a name-recognition level much higher than anyone else in the League, if for no other reason than because of their Basketball team, but also because they are a high-profile school in a high-profile city. The Georgetown name is more recognizable to the average person than anyone else in the League. They have to be able to sell that to recruits.
This is the puzzling piece for me. Pretty much all of the PL schools are well respeceted, but G'town has to be the biggest name in just about every area. Seems like they should be able to be at least as successful as a Fordham. xeyebrowx

[Model Citizen]

What if Georgetown acknowledges they can't afford a Patriot equivalency level, joins the PFL, and puts the money they had been spending on athletic aid into recruiting?

I feel like I'm asking Britney to go into rehab.

[DetroitFlyer]

Georgetown joining the PFL would make some sense, but I have to believe that after a less than satisfying experience in the MAAC, it isn't going to happen. Frankly, why would you give up playing in an auto bid conference and joining a conference where DetroitFlyer has to lobby for an at large bid incessantly?;)

[colorless raider]

I agree that their recruiting is easier due to the unique things they bring to the table academically (unparalleled internships in government, world-class political teachers, etc.) But then, wouldn't that shift even further towards some sort of AI reform as being necessary to help matters? Looking at Harvard is especially instructive: 2 winning seasons from 1988-2000, and not a single losing season since 2001. Yes, institutional support is necessary too, but you can't ignore AI reform in the Ivy as being a big part of it.

Plan and simple LFN. The Patriot League needs AI reform now before it is too late. Keep pushing.

[Model Citizen]

Flyer, I don't know how satisfying their MAAC experience was, but they never lost to Marist while they were in that conference. They won a MAAC title.

They're not going to the playoffs where they are. In the PFL, they could go to the Gridiron Classic, the most exciting event since the 1962 Cement Bowl.

Didn't Tripp M. say he considered GU to be Davidson's football rival?

[Model Citizen]

Gridiron Classic will be on television for anyone with the proper subscription. Will Fordham be able to say the same thing about its playoff game?

[Franks Tanks]

Gridiron Classic will be on television for anyone with the proper subscription. Will Fordham be able to say the same thing about its playoff game?

Yes--It will be on CSTV I am sure at the least

[DerHoya]

DFW, the game last year was AT Fordham and one that we should have won.... and yes i'm still bitter about that. We out played them the entire 1st half only to have our D forget to play in the 2nd.....

not a fun way to end one's career...

[URMite]

An answer like this is always going to point to a variety of factors: there isn't just one silver bullet. Having said that, the restrictive academic index is a unique challenge for Georgetown football in regards to the rest of the league. I like to think of it as the following: rather than being able to recruit on the top half of the bell curve, you're recruiting in the top 1/8th. You may be able to get the occasional Bassuener, Buzbee or Ononibaku with the AI the way it is, but it's the day-to-day players that you need to get - linebackers, "O" linemen, defensive backs - the "depth guys". Recruiting only in the top 1/8th for those people is wickedly hard, especially without FBS leagues or Ivy mystique.

This evidence is anecdotal, but I keep pointing to the Ivy League's experience before they moved to the current "banding" system. The highest AI numbers would be from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. From 1988 to 2000, Harvard had two winning seasons, Yale had six, and Princeton has eight: since 2001, Harvard has had no fewer than 7 wins a year, Yale has had four non-losing seasons (and has clinched a fifth this year), as has Princeton (though they will have no better than a .500 record this season). All have won at least one Ivy Championship since 2001.

Something else to consider is that in the Patriot League, the admissions department has powers they don't have at other schools to work with athletics to get athletes in there. If you have an admissions department that is hell-bent to to have all football players with 1400 SAT's and damn the competitiveness, they can do this. Any coach has to maneuver this potential minefield to get recruits.
Although money is part of the equation, what can be done to lift Georgetown football can loosely be classified as "AI reform" and "institutional change". Both will be needed.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/gu/sports/m-footbl/auto_wide/1356936.jpeg

Sounds like Richmond's previous administration. They seemed to think that students spending time on athletics was a waste of time that could be spent studying. To this end they reduced the number of football scholarships for a while to comply with Title XI. Then began to increase admission requirements, somewhat for football, even more for basketball. It really appeared that their thought process was "you shouldn't receive an athletic scholarship unless you would qualify for an academic scholarship", there that should put an end to all this nonsense.

I'm glad that's over with. xnonono2x The current administration is actually leading cheers at the games...xbowx

[Franks Tanks]

Sounds like Richmond's previous administration. They seemed to think that students spending time on athletics was a waste of time that could be spent studying. To this end they reduced the number of football scholarships for a while to comply with Title XI. Then began to increase admission requirements, somewhat for football, even more for basketball. It really appeared that their thought process was "you shouldn't receive an athletic scholarship unless you would qualify for an academic scholarship", there that should put an end to all this nonsense.

I'm glad that's over with. xnonono2x The current administration is actually leading cheers at the games...xbowx

Thats great for Richmond, and it reminds me so much of Lafayette. Our previous president tried to kill the football program and refused to give basketball scholly's. The new pres did a 180 and was in favor of scholly's and can also typically be found on the sidelines at football games with his young children.

[DetroitFlyer]

Gridiron Classic will be on television for anyone with the proper subscription. Will Fordham be able to say the same thing about its playoff game?


The Gridiron Classic is a poor substitute for a playoff game.... If you do not believe me, post a poll and ask how many teams in FCS would rather play in the Gridiron Classic versus a first round playoff game....

If I am Georgetown, there is no way I am leaving an autobid conference so that I can go play in a conference whose highest "honor" is to play in some no name "Classic".

[LBPop]

If I am Georgetown, there is no way I am leaving an autobid conference so that I can go play in a conference whose highest "honor" is to play in some no name "Classic".

My impression after four years of association with the program is that Georgetown joined the Patriot League for two reasons. 1) It was a higher level conference with an auto-bid; 2) The academic personna of the member schools satisfied Georgetown's "administrative ego". Without dropping down to DIII, the only league that Georgetown would ever consider moving to would be the Ivies and that ship sailed years ago.

[massdad]

Evaluation of talent also plays a role. Bob Benson Pursued my son and assured us he would be admitted. Kelly withdrew the offer, telling our H.S. coach "the kid is sloppy." He now starts for Fordham.

I'm pretty close to a kid that was also recruited by Benson, got accepted, and had the good fortune of playing for Coach B his freshman and soph years; he saw alot of playing time. Made a good impact when he was given his shots on the field, worked hard, committed to DC all three summers in the off season, graded out very highly in the speed and strength tests, and expected to be an impact player in this league....was pushed aside for the new recruits. There are several other seniors, as well as juniors, on this year's team who also didn't see the field that could have made a difference. New staff went for youth, made it clear that was their decision last year, and we all can see how it turned out. I'm sure this decision also had an impact on retention, Hoya's lost alot of good talent last off season (where's Ihezie, Carter?). GU would have won more games if the upperclassmen had played this year. Hoyas had experienced talent they did not use. ps 6AM practices didn't help...but that's a whole 'nother chapter.

[DFW HOYA]

My impression after four years of association with the program is that Georgetown joined the Patriot League for two reasons. 1) It was a higher level conference with an auto-bid; 2) The academic personna of the member schools satisfied Georgetown's "administrative ego". Without dropping down to DIII, the only league that Georgetown would ever consider moving to would be the Ivies and that ship sailed years ago.

Bob Benson really led the push for the PL, even if he knew the considerable gap that the program faced. The stadium was the "build it and they will come" argument that ultimately collided with the school's money troubles.

Benson saw the MAAC as a dead end by 1999, and knew where it was headed. Where would this program be today if it was 1-9 sitting alongside LaSalle waiting for a call from the Pioneer?

[jimbo65]

My impression after four years of association with the program is that Georgetown joined the Patriot League for two reasons. 1) It was a higher level conference with an auto-bid; 2) The academic personna of the member schools satisfied Georgetown's "administrative ego". Without dropping down to DIII, the only league that Georgetown would ever consider moving to would be the Ivies and that ship sailed years ago.

LBPOP, I have a question. Do the GT powers that be feel satisfied with the "academic personna" of the Big East? Are they satisfied with that persona regarding some of their bball recruits over the years? I know nothing about the ethos of GT, I've seen the fball team at Fordham & occasionaly the bball team at MSG but IMO bball makes them $ and fball does not. Therefore they don't give a rat's behind about who they play bball with. As to fball, they do not appear willing to commit $ to developing a winning program. Apparently they have found a safe haven for the fball and have decided to let it flounder. A shame for the players and the fans but that is how it appears.

[LBPop]

Therefore they don't give a rat's behind about who they play bball with.
Your post suggests that you have some specific knowledge of the members of the basketball team. I happen to have some very specific knowledge about their current team and they get high marks as individuals. Do you have information to the contrary?

[carney2]

I've asked one version or another of this question before and have usually been sent to the corner without my bourbon and branch. Anyway, at what point does some thoughtful member of the Georgetown power structure conclude that the football program as it is currently structured is an embarrassment to a university that is generally at or near the top of every other "high profile" (not swimming, not volleyball, not the chess team, but most certainly academic endeavors) activity that it undertakes? My guess is sooner, rather than later, and there are only 3 possibilities:

1. Jump all the way in and swim with the sharks - well, at least "sharks" as they are defined in the Patriot League.

2. Drop the football program to D-III. (Is this really a possibility while keeping basketball and other sports D-I in the Big East? I am unclear on the rules here.) The PFL does not seem to be a viable option based on what has been said here.

3. Drop football and sink the soccer and field hockey goals at Multi-sport into concrete so that they are permanent.

Decision time is coming. The only question is "When?"

[jimbo65]

Your post suggests that you have some specific knowledge of the members of the basketball team. I happen to have some very specific knowledge about their current team and they get high marks as individuals. Do you have information to the contrary?
The part of my post you quoted referred to who GT plays bball against i.e., the Big East with some very suspect programs. Re. the present GT players themselves, I have no specific knowledge, however,if you re-read my post I wrote over the years. I would imagine you would agree that over the years, starting with your first big star, Patrick Ewing, there were to say the least some corners cut to get him admiited and retained at GT. Not to say that Fordham would not have done the same thing given the chance with Patrick. Franlky it is not my concern what GT does. What I was questioning was the use of academic persona and GT athletics. IMO they have one set of rules for bball and another for all the non-revenue sports. In short, I have no problem with the GT players, coaches and fans. I do have a problem with the administration who I consider hypocrites as to bball.

[carney2]

Your post suggests that you have some specific knowledge of the members of the basketball team. I happen to have some very specific knowledge about their current team and they get high marks as individuals. Do you have information to the contrary?

I have never been one to stay out of other people's private discussions so I interject that there has apparently been a misunderstanding here. jimbo65, I think, was saying that someone (DFW or you, LB) in this thread stated that, in his opinion, one of the reasons that Georgetown joined the Patriot League was to hang out with a(n academically) higher class of institution. This is contrasted with hoops - and, I guess the remainder of the Hoya sports scene - where membership in the Big East casts them with some large state university and some other institutions whose SATs do not come close to those at Georgetown. His conclusion is that "money talks and nobody walks."

[LBPop]

If I misunderstood the question posed, I apologize. My statement about the choice of the PL for football meant that it was the only logical place that they would go and still maintain a non-scholarship program. I'm sure that the academic profile of the member schools was an important factor. With respect to the administration of basketball, I wouldn't dare to even make a guess. Heck, I've been around the football program four years and I still can't figure that out.

As for hypocrisy in NCAA sports...some might say that is a redundant phrase. xrolleyesx

[TheValleyRaider]

1. Jump all the way in and swim with the sharks - well, at least "sharks" as they are defined in the Patriot League.

Ha! Patriot League as "sharks." You're a funny man carney, in spite of (or perhaps because of) your curmudgeonly nature xlolx xlolx xlolx


2. Drop the football program to D-III. (Is this really a possibility while keeping basketball and other sports D-I in the Big East? I am unclear on the rules here.) The PFL does not seem to be a viable option based on what has been said here.

No. Not possible. By being D-I in basketball, they have to be D-I in everything else, including Football. The so-called "Dayton Rule" (there's those blasted Flyers again!). Otherwise, they could be raking in Final 4 money to build some obscene D-III powerhouses (or something like that)