Outgoing Cornell AD on Ivy League scheduling and playoff participation

[bonarae]

At least he does understand what some of us fans are desiring for...

https://omny.fm/shows/between-the-lines-1/cornell-director-of-athletics-physical-education-a


Noel goes on to voice his support for starting the FB season earlier, allowing teams to have bye weeks and making the conference champion eligible for the FCS Playoffs. “To be prepared for that first game knowing the opponent is going to have two games under their belt is really a tough challenge for Ivy schools…and I would love to see the Ivy champion go to the Playoffs.”

[bulldog10jw]

The players, coaches, and fans all agree. I, personally, would be happy with an 11th game and an earlier start to the season. One thing at a time.

[DFW HOYA]

What prevents Cornell from scheduling games at Week 1? The Ivy League isn't kicking them out.

[bulldog10jw]

What prevents Cornell from scheduling games at Week 1? The Ivy League isn't kicking them out.

If the Ivy League ever did kick someone out, Cornell or Penn would be the first to go.

[caribbeanhen]

Baby steps

I like it especially the playoff talk

[Go...gate]

IMO, he is correct.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I think postseason participation is more likely than an 11th regular season game. But I'll believe any development when I see it.

[caribbeanhen]

I think postseason participation is more likely than an 11th regular season game. But I'll believe any development when I see it.

did you lose a bet? The Idaho helmet....

[NY Crusader 2010]

did you lose a bet? The Idaho helmet....

Nah...in remembrance of the U. of Idaho students who were murdered in November, as well as the Vandal community as a whole in the wake of said tragedy.

[Laker]

If the Ivy League ever did kick someone out, Cornell or Penn would be the first to go.

As a Midwesterner I'm interested to hear why that would be.

[bulldog10jw]

As a Midwesterner I'm interested to hear why that would be.

Penn - last in, first out.

Cornell - everyone is tired of having to travel to Ithaca. It's a long, boring, trip.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I thought Brown was the 8th and final Ivy added in the 1950's?

One of my best friends from HS ran track at Princeton and I know they still call the Ivy League Championship meet "Heptagonals" or "Heps" for short. This nickname for the meet is a throwback to when the Ivy League had 7 schools.

[caribbeanhen]

Nah...in remembrance of the U. of Idaho students who were murdered in November, as well as the Vandal community as a whole in the wake of said tragedy.

gotcha, the accused perp is a creep show but I think their is a crime thread somewhere

[taper]

Penn - last in, first out.

Cornell - everyone is tired of having to travel to Ithaca. It's a long, boring, trip.
That says a lot about east coast schools and their unwillingness to travel. I think Harvard is furthest away, at ~330 miles. That's nothing. UND to USD is about 380 miles and that's considered a local trip. The 4 Dakotas to the 2 Montanas is about 1000 and lots of people would like them to join up.

[Go Green]

What prevents Cornell from scheduling games at Week 1? The Ivy League isn't kicking them out.

Presumably, Cornell's president is against it and would fire the AD if that happens.

The only public source that ever acknowledged an Ivy president as being in favor of changing the status quo was Buddy Teevens saying that then-President Kim was in favor of expanding the schedule and playoffs. Unfortunately, Kim is no longer at Dartmouth...

Now, if you're asking what's preventing a school from scheduling an extra game where the entire administration is on Board, there are probably ways to punish a school short of kicking them out of the league. For example, IIRC, the PL expressed its unhappiness with Fordham for unilaterally implementing scholarships by making them ineligible for the PL title for two years.

[clenz]

That says a lot about east coast schools and their unwillingness to travel. I think Harvard is furthest away, at ~330 miles. That's nothing. UND to USD is about 380 miles and that's considered a local trip. The 4 Dakotas to the 2 Montanas is about 1000 and lots of people would like them to join up.
That was exactly my first thought as well when I read "it's a long, boring, trip"

I'm roughly 300 miles from Target Field and I would day trip to a Twins game and then home on the same day. I don't, if I go to a Twins game I make it a day or two trip because I love MSP. I'm ~250 from Milwaukee and I've definitely day-tripped a Brewers game.

Hell, where I live is between 250-350 miles to MSP, Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, KC, and Omaha/Lincoln. People day trip those things all the damn time for **** as simple as "I want something from Ikea".

The coasts really are entirely different worlds/countries than between the Appalachians and the Rockies.

[ElCid]

Penn - last in, first out.

Cornell - everyone is tired of having to travel to Ithaca. It's a long, boring, trip.

Wow. Really? It is beautiful out there. Contrary to the urban locals of some of the other schools, or the congested travel, you have to go through some beautiful country to get there. Boring is in the eye of the beholder.

[bulldog10jw]

I thought Brown was the 8th and final Ivy added in the 1950's?

One of my best friends from HS ran track at Princeton and I know they still call the Ivy League Championship meet "Heptagonals" or "Heps" for short. This nickname for the meet is a throwback to when the Ivy League had 7 schools.

Penn was still trying to play big time football in the early fifties. Everything I've read and heard from others was that Penn was given preference over Colgate solely because the Ivy League wanted that presence in Philadelphia to go along with Boston and New York.

[Go Green]

Penn was still trying to play big time football in the early fifties. Everything I've read and heard from others was that Penn was given preference over Colgate solely because the Ivy League wanted that presence in Philadelphia to go along with Boston and New York.

Hard to argue with that.

I'd also venture that the Powers that Be in the day viewed Colgate as redundant to Cornell.

[bulldog10jw]

Wow. Really? It is beautiful out there. Contrary to the urban locals of some of the other schools, or the congested travel, you have to go through some beautiful country to get there. Boring is in the eye of the beholder.

It is beautiful there. In September when the leaves are changing.

[UAalum72]

I'd have thought it was their undergrad enrollment (12K at Penn, 15K at Cornell vs. 9.5K and under for the rest) plus Cornell's status as the NY land-grant college and its state-sponsored statutory colleges (Ag, Vet, et al.) and athletes studying Hotel Management making it too declasse for the rest of the Ivy.

[ElCid]

I'd have thought it was their undergrad enrollment (12K at Penn, 15K at Cornell vs. 9.5K and under for the rest) plus Cornell's status as the NY land-grant college and its state-sponsored statutory colleges (Ag, Vet, et al.) and athletes studying Hotel Management making it too declasse for the rest of the Ivy.

This seems more likely than distance

[ngineer]

Though not an IL person, from being close to several Ivy schools, Cornell has long been viewed askance. A large percentage of their athletes have supposedly been admitted through the more “lenient” standards of their agriculture school, which is part of the SUNY system. So they are not a pure private school. Supposedly, this more reflected in their wrestling, football and ice hockey teams. Meanwhile, Penn has also been looked down upon for ‘excessive’ laxness in their admission standards for some of their sports, as well. I know for sure that we have lost some football recruits to Penn, because Lehigh’s admissions said no. Perhaps some of the IL guys on the Board know of other issues, but I heard some Princeton people criticize Penn for not being “ up to snuff”, with the one exception being their Wharton School of Business.

[FUBeAR]

Though not an IL person, from being close to several Ivy schools, Cornell has long been viewed askance. A large percentage of their athletes have supposedly been admitted through the more “lenient” standards of their agriculture school, which is part of the SUNY system. So they are not a pure private school. Supposedly, this more reflected in their wrestling, football and ice hockey teams. Meanwhile, Penn has also been looked down upon for ‘excessive’ laxness in their admission standards for some of their sports, as well. I know for sure that we have lost some football recruits to Penn, because Lehigh’s admissions said no. Perhaps some of the IL guys on the Board know of other issues, but I heard some Princeton people criticize Penn for not being “ up to snuff”, with the one exception being their Wharton School of Business.
Thought the Academic Index prevented these kinds of shenanigans. No?

[bulldog10jw]

Thought the Academic Index prevented these kinds of shenanigans. No?

Theoretically

[NY Crusader 2010]

While the Agricultural School and the Labor Relations schools at Cornell are indeed both SUNY, they are not by any means "easy" to get into, even for students at or near the top of their HS class. I believe the tuition is about 30-40% less though. I'm sure there are thousands of dreamers who think that this is the "cheat code" for getting into an Ivy school and try to apply every year to these programs.

I always thought the Hotel School was the so-called party school of Cornell, which is part of the private side, not SUNY.

I've always been a fan of Cornell. Easiest Ivy to get into (which is very relative) but during my time it had the rep of being the most academically rigorous and most difficult to graduate from.

[Go Green]

Thought the Academic Index prevented these kinds of shenanigans. No?

When the AI was proposed in 1981, Penn took the full five years to implement its AI levels, whereas Dartmouth and Yale did so immediately.

That's a big reason why Penn won five straight titles in the 1980s, whereas former league powers Dartmouth and Yale had a string of losing years. I strongly suspect that Columbia also implemented its AI immediate as well, and resulted in "The Streak I."

That's also a big reason why Penn got a reputation for being lax on admissions. Took them almost a generation to shake that rep.

[Ivytalk]

The players, coaches, and fans all agree. I, personally, would be happy with an 11th game and an earlier start to the season. One thing at a time.

Amen, bulldog!xthumbsupx

Now that the Ivies are starting to lose good players through the Portal (like Harvard’s WR Wimberly transferring to Delaware), the pressure for change will ratchet up.

[caribbeanhen]

Amen, bulldog!xthumbsupx

Now that the Ivies are starting to lose good players through the Portal (like Harvard’s WR Wimberly transferring to Delaware), the pressure for change will ratchet up.

Wimberly is impressive! Hope he’s 100% healthy

[Go...gate]

Though not an IL person, from being close to several Ivy schools, Cornell has long been viewed askance. A large percentage of their athletes have supposedly been admitted through the more “lenient” standards of their agriculture school, which is part of the SUNY system. So they are not a pure private school. Supposedly, this more reflected in their wrestling, football and ice hockey teams. Meanwhile, Penn has also been looked down upon for ‘excessive’ laxness in their admission standards for some of their sports, as well. I know for sure that we have lost some football recruits to Penn, because Lehigh’s admissions said no. Perhaps some of the IL guys on the Board know of other issues, but I heard some Princeton people criticize Penn for not being “ up to snuff”, with the one exception being their Wharton School of Business.

Cornell has been cited from time to time as a reason or example for the Patriot League adding William & Mary, as W & M possesses a comparable "state" affiliation. At Colgate, Cornell is periodically referred to as as "SUNY Ithaca".- - - Updated - - -

[Pard4Life]

Penn was still trying to play big time football in the early fifties. Everything I've read and heard from others was that Penn was given preference over Colgate solely because the Ivy League wanted that presence in Philadelphia to go along with Boston and New York.

Penn had always been associated with the Ivy group in some form through scheduling from the beginning. Lafayette was supposedly a candidate member of the Ivy but a nasty game against Penn - where our students charged the field and beat-up the team - nixed that. However we were are apart of the "Group of 3 association" Big 3: HYP, Middle 3: Lafayette-Lehigh-Rutgers, Little 3: Amherst-Williams-Wesleyan ... and look what Rutgers has become.

[Ivytalk]

... and look what Rutgers has become.

The newest rest stop on the NJ Turnpike.

[Sader87]

I think the Ivies will go "11 game seasons" soon but I don't see the FCS playoffs anytime soon

[Franks Tanks]

When the AI was proposed in 1981, Penn took the full five years to implement its AI levels, whereas Dartmouth and Yale did so immediately.

That's a big reason why Penn won five straight titles in the 1980s, whereas former league powers Dartmouth and Yale had a string of losing years. I strongly suspect that Columbia also implemented its AI immediate as well, and resulted in "The Streak I."

That's also a big reason why Penn got a reputation for being lax on admissions. Took them almost a generation to shake that rep.

That must explain how Tom Gilmore ended up at Penn

[caribbeanhen]

The newest rest stop on the NJ Turnpike.

what exit?

[NY Crusader 2010]

That must explain how Tom Gilmore ended up at Penn

I know this was tongue in cheek (and also hilarious) but believe it or not TG may have been one of the smartest guys not just on the football team but in his class as a whole. He was a computer science major and actually had a job offer lined up to work on nuclear submarines coming out of undergrad. Obviously, he chose the coaching route instead.

[Franks Tanks]

I know this was tongue in cheek (and also hilarious) but believe it or not TG may have been one of the smartest guys not just on the football team but in his class as a whole. He was a computer science major and actually had a job offer lined up to work on nuclear submarines coming out of undergrad. Obviously, he chose the coaching route instead.

For sure, I know his grades at Penn were outstanding, and far superior to mine!

[Ivytalk]

what exit?

8 3/4 ;)

[Go Green]

I know this was tongue in cheek (and also hilarious) but believe it or not TG may have been one of the smartest guys not just on the football team but in his class as a whole. He was a computer science major and actually had a job offer lined up to work on nuclear submarines coming out of undergrad. Obviously, he chose the coaching route instead.

I didn't know about Gilmore's academic record, but I'm not surprised. Having played for him at Dartmouth, he did indeed come across as an intelligent guy (and yes, super-intense).

But the wisecrack was pretty typical of the fallout from Penn's decision not to implement the AI until the last minute. Penn had to put up with that sort of stuff for pretty much a generation--a lot of it coming from Princeton.

Penn and Needles - Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com (https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/11/15/penn-and-needles-their-academics-belittled-the-quakers-came-up-big-against-princeton-in-the-ivy-leagues-showcase-game)

[Southsider]

That must explain how Tom Gilmore ended up at Penn
When the AI was proposed in 1981, Penn took the full five years to implement its AI levels, whereas Dartmouth and Yale did so immediately.

Well, it didn't help them in the early 80's

1980 - LU 38 Penn 10
1981 - LU 58 - Penn 0

xcoffeex

[bulldog10jw]

When the AI was proposed in 1981, Penn took the full five years to implement its AI levels, whereas Dartmouth and Yale did so immediately.

Well, it didn't help them in the early 80's

1980 - LU 38 Penn 10
1981 - LU 58 - Penn 0

xcoffeex

They did pretty well the rest of the decade with those marginal (academically) players, including 5 straight years with at least a piece of the Ivy title.

[Go Green]

They did pretty well the rest of the decade with those marginal (academically) players, including 5 straight years with at least a piece of the Ivy title.

And given that the Ivy was still playing freshmen football in those days, the earliest that the "delayed-AI-implementation-guys" would have suited up for the Penn varsity was the 1982 season.

Incidentally, does anyone want to guess how Penn did against Lehigh in 1982?

:)

[Son of Eli]

And given that the Ivy was still playing freshmen football in those days, the earliest that the "delayed-AI-implementation-guys" would have suited up for the Penn varsity was the 1982 season.

Incidentally, does anyone want to guess how Penn did against Lehigh in 1982?

:)
Penn 20 Lehigh 17.