SLC Commish Not Sure Some Schools Deserve Playoff Access

[TexasTerror]

From an interview on SHSU football broadcast, halftime show...the SLC Commish does not feel the non and partial scholarships deserve same access, saying the Div IIs on SLC slate are much tougher than some of those schools and that it's a different brand of football. Says those schools do not play a national schedule.

(Expansion of playoffs) Talk to expand to 18 initially, expand to 24 eventually. Beyond 24, not sure. Not sure SLC is interested in 18. 18 is perhaps for some leagues that don't quite sponsor the sport at same level that SLC does. Partial or non-scholarship teams. Not sure they deserve same access that others that commit much differently. 24, more at-large spots. Not sold on just 18. Those schools don't play national schedule -- don't go to Dakotas, Montanas, etc. Some of Div IIs we play are tougher than some of those schools. They may only sponsor 30 scholarships, less than Div II programs in Texas. Different brand of football. There is pretty good reason they don't sponsor sport at same level we do.

Full paraphrased interview...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showpost.php?p=721434&postcount=57

[DFW HOYA]

It's a weak argument.

Would he say that the SLC does not deserve a spot in the NCAA basketball tournament because of its lack of a national schedule? Of course not.

[TexasTerror]

Would he say that the SLC does not deserve a spot in the NCAA basketball tournament because of its lack of a national schedule? Of course not.

Does the SLC teams offer the same allotment of scholarships in basketball? Isn't that why we have different football divisions, due to the issues of scholarship and financial commitment through such?

And honestly, most of the PFL schools play a rather weak schedule complete with Div III and NAIAs. The schools that would like to crack the playoffs have improved their schedules (i.e San Diego, Albany), but other schools are bringing them down.

[Dane96]

Actually, Texas Terror, the NEC has scheduled Nationally. Unlike teams in Texas...NEC teams can schedule nationally by not even leaving the East Coast/Mid-West Corridor due to the large number of NATIONAL PROGRAMS here.

As for your PFL argument, it is a moot point: THE PFL has yet to apply.

Both your argument and your Commissioners' lack vision and fact.

The most comical part of your argument- San Diego having a top caliber schedule; that could not be further from the truth.

As for the NEC, we don't play sub-DI teams. 'Nuff said.

As for hoops, are you kidding me? McNeese spends HALF the amount UT-SA spends. UT-SA spends around 1/8 of what Syracuse spends.

Don't hear your commish complaining about the Southland Basketball bid.

Shhhhhh....

[Hansel]

everyone has access- just not auto-access

easy answer= drop the autobid altogether

[TexasTerror]

The most comical part of your argument- San Diego having a top caliber schedule; that could not be further from the truth.

They have upgraded due to the issues they have faced in trying to get into the playoffs. They have responded and not rested on their laurels...


As for the NEC, we don't play sub-DI teams. 'Nuff said.

Sacred Heart vs Assumption. Wagner vs W Connecticut St. CCSU vs S Connecticut St. CCSU vs Merrimack.



As for hoops, are you kidding me? McNeese spends HALF the amount UT-SA spends. UT-SA spends around 1/8 of what Syracuse spends.

We're talking about scholarships. Full allotment versus none at all...

[McNeese_beat]

Actually, Texas Terror, the NEC has scheduled Nationally. Unlike teams in Texas...NEC teams can schedule nationally by not even leaving the East Coast/Mid-West Corridor due to the large number of NATIONAL PROGRAMS here.

As for your PFL argument, it is a moot point: THE PFL has yet to apply.

Both your argument and your Commissioners' lack vision and fact.

The most comical part of your argument- San Diego having a top caliber schedule; that could not be further from the truth.

As for the NEC, we don't play sub-DI teams. 'Nuff said.

As for hoops, are you kidding me? McNeese spends HALF the amount UT-SA spends. UT-SA spends around 1/8 of what Syracuse spends.

Don't hear your commish complaining about the Southland Basketball bid.

Shhhhhh....

You do have national programs. You can fail to offer scholarships to kids all over the nation.

The playoff teams are apples...you are oranges. Non-scholarship oranges.
xnodx

[FCS Preview]

The schools that would like to crack the playoffs have improved their schedules (i.e San Diego, Albany), but other schools are bringing them down.

San Diego improved their schedule??? How bad did it used to be if coming into this week their average FCS opponent was ranked 96 out of 122?

[TexasTerror]

San Diego improved their schedule??? How bad did it used to be if coming into this week their average FCS opponent was ranked 96 out of 122?

2005: Yale, Princeton - 3 Sub-Div I games
2006: Yale, UC-Davis - 2 Sub Div I Games
2007: Northern Colorado, UC-Davis - 1 Sub-Div I Game

Keep cutting those sub-Div I games...that's upgrade!

[DetroitFlyer]

Yeah, I suppose a team that is 9-1, currently 7-1 in FCS, with a win over the AQ team from the Patriot League, at that team's home field, and a win over the #24 team in the FCS coaches poll at the time, does not even deserve a sniff at the playoffs.... That commish needs to get her head out of her.... Well you know.

DAYTON FLYERS FOR AN AT LARGE BID IN 2007 BABY!!!!!!!!!

[FCSFAN]

Sounds like something the Southland Commissioner would say, maybe prompted by some of the Southland fans here. :p

[UAalum72]

Sacred Heart vs Assumption. Wagner vs W Connecticut St. CCSU vs S Connecticut St. CCSU vs Merrimack.

Three of those were late replacements when St. Peter's dropped football. CCSU is in the same system as SCSU, and they also played a BCS team.
What's the Southland's excuse for playing Angelo St., Henderson St., Tarleton St., Arkansas-Monticello, Abilene Christian, Kentucky Wesleyan, Azusa Pacific, and South Dakota?


We're talking about scholarships. Full allotment versus none at all...

No, the NEC is allowng about 1/2 the allotment

[Dallas Demon]

Yes, and Texas Tech, Ole Miss, Baylor, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, New Mexico State, Kansas, Tulane, Rice, Nevada, and Oklahoma State.

Compared to:

Ivy League: 0 FBS
Metro Atlantic: 0 FBS
Northeast: 1 FBS, Western Michigan
Patriot: 0 FBS
Pioneer: 1 FBS, Western Kentucky (transition)

Sorry, but for the mid-major programs a non mid-major FCS game IS your equivalent of the Southland's FBS games. xnodx

[Dallas Demon]

Three of those were late replacements when St. Peter's dropped football. CCSU is in the same system as SCSU, and they also played a BCS team.
What's the Southland's excuse for playing Angelo St., Henderson St., Tarleton St., Arkansas-Monticello, Abilene Christian, Kentucky Wesleyan, Azusa Pacific, and South Dakota?


No, the NEC is allowng about 1/2 the allotment

Western Michigan is far from being a BCS team.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, and Texas Tech, Ole Miss, Baylor, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, New Mexico State, Kansas, Tulane, Rice, Nevada, and Oklahoma State.

Compared to:

Ivy League: 0 FBS
Metro Atlantic: 0 FBS
Northeast: 1 FBS, Western Michigan
Patriot: 0 FBS
Pioneer: 1 FBS, Western Kentucky (transition)

Sorry, but for the mid-major programs a non mid-major FCS game IS your equivalent of the Southland's FBS games. xnodx

Hmm also the last time a team from the Patriot League made it to the National Championship game was 2003 in Colgate-- for the SLC it was McNeese in 2002. So the PL has had a team in NC game more recently that the SLC--and the only other time a SLC team made it recently was McNeese in 1997. The SLC doesnt exactly blow the doors off FCS competition now does it, you are a conference on McNeese and usually not much else.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, and Texas Tech, Ole Miss, Baylor, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, New Mexico State, Kansas, Tulane, Rice, Nevada, and Oklahoma State.

Compared to:

Ivy League: 0 FBS
Metro Atlantic: 0 FBS
Northeast: 1 FBS, Western Michigan
Patriot: 0 FBS
Pioneer: 1 FBS, Western Kentucky (transition)

Sorry, but for the mid-major programs a non mid-major FCS game IS your equivalent of the Southland's FBS games. xnodx

The highlighted schools are either not in BCS conferences, or at the absolute bottom of there BCS league

[Dallas Demon]

Hmm also the last time a team from the Patriot League made it to the National Championship game was 2003 in Colgate-- for the SLC it was McNeese in 2002. So the PL has had a team in NC game more recently that the SLC--and the only other time a SLC team made it recently was McNeese in 1997. The SLC doesnt exactly blow the doors off FCS competition now does it, you are a conference on McNeese and usually not much else.

OMG, you are funny! In the HISTORY of the Patriot, you have EXACTLY ONE team that has reached the FCS/I-AA semifinals or better - Colgate in 2003.

Contrast this with the Southland:

Texas St. - 2005 Semifinals
Sam Houston St. - 2004 Semifinals
McNeese St. - 2002 Finals
Northwestern St. - 1998 Semifinals
McNeese St. - 1997 Semifinals
Troy - 1996 Semifinals
McNeese St. - 1995 Semifinals
Stephen F. Austin - 1995 Semifinals
Stephen F. Austin - 1989 Finals
Louisiana-Monroe - 1987 Champions
Arkansas St. - 1986 Finals
Louisiana Tech - 1984 Finals

I suggest you do your homework before making bold statements comparing the Patriot vs. the Southland and strengths of the conferences over the years.

[Dallas Demon]

The highlighted schools are either not in BCS conferences, or at the absolute bottom of there BCS league

And your point? Are you saying that they are the equivalent of playing EXACTLY 0 FBS schools? These are schools in the Southeastern Conference (BCS), Big 12 Conference (BCS), WAC, and Conference USA along with a Sunbelt school (weakest of the bunch). Also, remember that we won some of these games. Your argument is lame, go back to the drawing board.xrulesx

[Dallas Demon]

Actually, Texas Terror, the NEC has scheduled Nationally. Unlike teams in Texas...NEC teams can schedule nationally by not even leaving the East Coast/Mid-West Corridor due to the large number of NATIONAL PROGRAMS here.

As for your PFL argument, it is a moot point: THE PFL has yet to apply.

Both your argument and your Commissioners' lack vision and fact.

The most comical part of your argument- San Diego having a top caliber schedule; that could not be further from the truth.

As for the NEC, we don't play sub-DI teams. 'Nuff said.

As for hoops, are you kidding me? McNeese spends HALF the amount UT-SA spends. UT-SA spends around 1/8 of what Syracuse spends.

Don't hear your commish complaining about the Southland Basketball bid.

Shhhhhh....

This is NOT a sub-par schedule (San Diego)????

Sat, Sep 1 at Azusa Pacific W 42-32 --
Sat, Sep 8 Marist W 38-17 --
Sat, Sep 15 Northern Colorado W 49-13 --
Sat, Sep 29 at Butler W 56-9 --
Sat, Oct 6 at Valparaiso W 41-27 --
Sat, Oct 13 Drake W 59-19 --
Sat, Oct 20 Jacksonville W 62-23 --
Sat, Oct 27 at Dayton L 16-35 --
Sat, Nov 3 Davidson W 52-49 --
Sat, Nov 10 at Morehead State 1:00 pm --
Sat, Nov 17 at California-Davis 4:30 pm --

This would be a laughable schedule for any team in the Southland, Southern, Gateway, Great West, Big Sky, or Colonial.

As far as Southland Basketball, Northwestern St. upset #3 seed and Big 10 champion Iowa in the 2006 NCAA tourney. In 2007, Texas A&M-Corpus Christi nearly beat #2 seed Wisconsin in the tourney. In 2005, Southeastern LA came close to knocking off #2 Oklahoma St. before losing in the end.

Northwestern St. regularly plays top basketball competition for its OOC schedule, many times winning including teams from the Southeastern, Big 12, Pac 10, etc.

[TheValleyRaider]

OMG, you are funny! In the HISTORY of the Patriot, you have EXACTLY ONE team that has reached the FCS/I-AA semifinals or better - Colgate in 2003.

Your commissioner tries to say that a conference like the Patriot League shouldn't deserve to get in when our rep has been to a Championship game more recently than yours, but somehow us mentioning that point is laughable? xeyebrowx

It's about Championships. Neither one of us has one recently, and neither of us has been in position to get one since 2002/3. But we're the ones who don't belong?


And your point? Are you saying that they are the equivalent of playing EXACTLY 0 FBS schools? These are schools in the Southeastern Conference (BCS), Big 12 Conference (BCS), WAC, and Conference USA along with a Sunbelt school (weakest of the bunch). Also, remember that we won some of these games. Your argument is lame, go back to the drawing board.xrulesx

The Patriot League hasn't played FBS opponents, this is true. What the Patriot League also does not do is play sub D-Is. The Patriot League as a whole conference plays only Division I-FCS opponents.

[TexasTerror]

I do not think our Commish said anything against the Patriot League. That's a different process there and not comparable to the NEC, Pioneer, MAAC and such...so I am not sure why there name is in the mix...

[McTailGator]

It's a weak argument.

Would he say that the SLC does not deserve a spot in the NCAA basketball tournament because of its lack of a national schedule? Of course not.

SLC DOES INDEED PLAY A NATIONAL BASKETBALL SCHEDULE,

Recent wins over Big 12 teams (NSU over OSU and Iowa) will show that.

We typically have MULTIPLE SEC and Big 12 teams on our schedules as we are right in the middle of these two conferences geographically. McNeese plays Texas A&M and LSU this year, and we had Texas and Miss. St. on our recent schedules.


I agree, and even mentioned in the past that not only the SLC would take that stance, but so will members of the BSC, SoCon, Gateway, CAA, and Ohio Valley.

Expansion beyond 16 will NEVER happen.

[TexasTerror]

Recent wins over Big 12 teams (NSU over OSU and Iowa) will show that.

Don't forget SHSU handing Bobby Knight his first loss at Tech, pushing UCLA to the extremes last year when they were #1 in the land and the big win over Missouri in the Preseason NIT...


We typically have MULTIPLE SEC and Big 12 teams on our schedules as we are right in the middle of these two conferences geographically. McNeese plays Texas A&M and LSU this year, and we had Texas and Miss. St. on our recent schedules.

SELA beat Penn State last year. That's a Big Ten squad last I checked. :)


I agree, and even mentioned in the past that not only the SLC would take that stance, but so will members of the BSC, SoCon, Gateway, CAA, and Ohio Valley.

You better believe it -- the SLC Commish is just willing to speak up and say something. He's a pretty straight forward individual...

[Franks Tanks]

OMG, you are funny! In the HISTORY of the Patriot, you have EXACTLY ONE team that has reached the FCS/I-AA semifinals or better - Colgate in 2003.

Contrast this with the Southland:

Texas St. - 2005 Semifinals
Sam Houston St. - 2004 Semifinals
McNeese St. - 2002 Finals
Northwestern St. - 1998 Semifinals
McNeese St. - 1997 Semifinals
Troy - 1996 Semifinals
McNeese St. - 1995 Semifinals
Stephen F. Austin - 1995 Semifinals
Stephen F. Austin - 1989 Finals
Louisiana-Monroe - 1987 Champions
Arkansas St. - 1986 Finals
Louisiana Tech - 1984 Finals

I suggest you do your homework before making bold statements comparing the Patriot vs. the Southland and strengths of the conferences over the years.

I said recently--- half of those teams havent been in the Southland in over a decade--but if yo wanna go so far back we have Lehigh in 1979 xlolx

[danefan]

I do not think our Commish said anything against the Patriot League. That's a different process there and not comparable to the NEC, Pioneer, MAAC and such...so I am not sure why there name is in the mix...

Here's the deal....from now on when you talk about the quality of play in the NEC and PFL you are talking about the quality of play in the patriot league also. There is no way around it.

The NEC and Patriot League are pretty much the same thing right now. You can't argue with that anymore by virtue of pure on-field competition.

You can believe whatever you want about the NEC, but its clear yuor belief is based on nothing more then speculation and unfounded assumptions.

And frankly, it sounds like you have an agenda.

[TexasTerror]

I said recently--- half of those teams havent been in the Southland in over a decade--but if yo wanna go so far back we have Lehigh in 1979 xlolx

Eight of 12...seems like 2/3rds of them...

Guess some people just can't do math on this board, even if you'd think their institution that they root for had some sort of academic prestige...xnodx

[TheValleyRaider]

Eight of 12...seems like 2/3rds of them...

Guess some people just can't do math on this board, even if you'd think their institution that they root for had some sort of academic prestige...xnodx

Since we're being math-picky here, it's actually 9 teams:
Texas St.
Sam Houston St.
McNeese St.
Northwestern St.
Troy
Stephen F. Austin
Louisiana-Monroe
Arkansas St.
Louisiana Tech
with 4 of them (italics) who have since moved on from the Southland xrulesx xnodx

[Franks Tanks]

Eight of 12...seems like 2/3rds of them...

Guess some people just can't do math on this board, even if you'd think their institution that they root for had some sort of academic prestige...xnodx

If you again want to get picky Stepen F. Austin's run in 1989 was expunged due to NCAA rules violations I understand. Dont forget that the PL was not allowed to go to the playoffs for years, and in this time Holy Cross had some of the best teams in I-AA

[Dallas Demon]

I said recently--- half of those teams havent been in the Southland in over a decade--but if yo wanna go so far back we have Lehigh in 1979 xlolx

Again, you failed to do your research. Lehigh made it to the quarterfinals in 1979, not the semifinals. If we included a comparision of Southland teams that made it to the quarterfinals, I'd be typing for some time. The point is that the 2003 Colgate team is the ONLY elite Patriot team in the history of the conference. How that translates into the Patriot being just as strong as the Southland is beyond me.

[Franks Tanks]

Again, you failed to do your research. Lehigh made it to the quarterfinals in 1979, not the semifinals. If we included a comparision of Southland teams that made it to the quarterfinals, I'd be typing for some time. The point is that the 2003 Colgate team is the ONLY elite Patriot team in the history of the conference. How that translates into the Patriot being just as strong as the Southland is beyond me.

Where do I say the Patriot is as strong as the Southland??? Its not, and thats not up for debate, but the SLC is far from the strongest FCS conference so you are in no poistion to talk smack. Only McNeese fans can talk smack

[FormerPokeCenter]

I said recently--- half of those teams havent been in the Southland in over a decade--but if yo wanna go so far back we have Lehigh in 1979 xlolx

Well, if we're going to go back to 1979, I feel it prudent to point out that the Southland wasn't a 1-AA league then. McNeese won the league, appeared in the AP and UPI top 20 polls and played Syracuse in the Independence Bowl that year, when the Orangemen had Art Monk and Joe Morris...xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Well, if we're going to go back to 1979, I feel it prudent to point out that the Southland wasn't a 1-AA league then. McNeese won the league, appeared in the AP and UPI top 20 polls and played Syracuse in the Independence Bowl that year, when the Orangemen had Art Monk and Joe Morris...xlolx


Patriot teams also played at the highest level pre-1978

[aust42]

From an interview on SHSU football broadcast, halftime show...the SLC Commish does not feel the non and partial scholarships deserve same access, saying the Div IIs on SLC slate are much tougher than some of those schools and that it's a different brand of football. Says those schools do not play a national schedule.

(Expansion of playoffs) Talk to expand to 18 initially, expand to 24 eventually. Beyond 24, not sure. Not sure SLC is interested in 18. 18 is perhaps for some leagues that don't quite sponsor the sport at same level that SLC does. Partial or non-scholarship teams. Not sure they deserve same access that others that commit much differently. 24, more at-large spots. Not sold on just 18. Those schools don't play national schedule -- don't go to Dakotas, Montanas, etc. Some of Div IIs we play are tougher than some of those schools. They may only sponsor 30 scholarships, less than Div II programs in Texas. Different brand of football. There is pretty good reason they don't sponsor sport at same level we do.

Full paraphrased interview...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showpost.php?p=721434&postcount=57

I don't think playoff expansion is gonna happen. Expanding the playoffs would only ensure more CAA, Gateway, SoCon, Big Sky teams would make the playoffs. 3/4's of the teams from the power conferences would be making the playoff's each year. Those power conference bubble schools will get in over the schools crying about not having access. There is a huge drop in talent after the top 16 teams IMO. 16 teams is perfect, I believe the powers that be recognize this and will leave it be.

[McTailGator]

Don't forget SHSU handing Bobby Knight his first loss at Tech, pushing UCLA to the extremes last year when they were #1 in the land and the big win over Missouri in the Preseason NIT...



SELA beat Penn State last year. That's a Big Ten squad last I checked. :)



You better believe it -- the SLC Commish is just willing to speak up and say something. He's a pretty straight forward individual...


Yea,

I forgot about the Texas Tech thing.

And the SLC Commish is doing a great job of representing the majority opinion of the SLC Presidents. The SLC want's a 12th game regular season as the norm and will not allow anything to stand it the way of that potential revenue.

Also, we've lost too many members to FBS due to the division being precieved as "PeeWee". A watered down expanded playoff season would make it worse.

I really believe McNeese would bolt for the FBS if the division was watered down with low quality teams not willing to do what it takes to field a quality product.

[McTailGator]

Hmm also the last time a team from the Patriot League made it to the National Championship game was 2003 in Colgate-- for the SLC it was McNeese in 2002. So the PL has had a team in NC game more recently that the SLC--and the only other time a SLC team made it recently was McNeese in 1997. The SLC doesnt exactly blow the doors off FCS competition now does it, you are a conference on McNeese and usually not much else.


SLC teams have been in 3 of the last 5 Final 4's.

If you want inclusion...

CALL OUR AD'S GET ON OUR SCHEDULES AND BEAT US.

CONSISTANTLY...

[TexasTerror]

I don't think playoff expansion is gonna happen. Expanding the playoffs would only ensure more CAA, Gateway, SoCon, Big Sky teams would make the playoffs. 3/4's of the teams from the power conferences would be making the playoff's each year. Those power conference bubble schools will get in over the schools crying about not having access. There is a huge drop in talent after the top 16 teams IMO. 16 teams is perfect, I believe the powers that be recognize this and will leave it be.

Agreed. It's like college basketball where we see more .500 teams from the ACC, SEC, Pac 10, Big Ten and such get in over mid-majors that have 20+ wins...

The NEC and Pioneer may get AQs, but it just means a watered down field and more teams that do not deserve being in...

[Syntax Error]

Basketball is that game you play indoors in shorts and no pads with a bouncy orange ball. We talk football here and the Patriot League should not be denigrated. Their teams are part of the bedrock of all college football. Take a look at the AGS sponsors this month! Lehigh was in the second championship game the FCS ever had! Five of their seven current teams have been in the playoffs and as recently as four years ago in the championship game. I don't think Tom Burnett was talking about the PL.

[TexasTerror]

Basketball is that game you play indoors in shorts and no pads with a bouncy orange ball. We talk football here and the Patriot League should not be denigrated. Their teams are part of the bedrock of all college football. Take a look at the AGS sponsors this month! Lehigh was in the second championship game the FCS ever had! Five of their seven current teams have been in the playoffs and as recently as four years ago in the championship game. I don't think Tom Burnett was talking about the PL.

Nope -- not at all. Someone else brought the Patriot into this one...xrolleyesx

[Dallas Demon]

Where do I say the Patriot is as strong as the Southland??? Its not, and thats not up for debate, but the SLC is far from the strongest FCS conference so you are in no poistion to talk smack. Only McNeese fans can talk smack

I'm not talking smack, I'm talking facts. I never mentioned comparing the Southland against the other strongest FCS conferences. Furthermore, McNeese is not the only school in the Southland that has had success on the football field. For example, Northwestern St. has been to the playoffs 5 times out of the last 10 years, including a semifinals appearance. The Southland has appeared in 3 of the last 5 final fours. Sam Houston also has been to the playoffs a few times over the last few years. It appears you're trying to get the McNeese guys to jump on your side - you're running out of cards to play here.

[Franks Tanks]

Basketball is that game you play indoors in shorts and no pads with a bouncy orange ball. We talk football here and the Patriot League should not be denigrated. Their teams are part of the bedrock of all college football. Take a look at the AGS sponsors this month! Lehigh was in the second championship game the FCS ever had! Five of their seven current teams have been in the playoffs and as recently as four years ago in the championship game. I don't think Tom Burnett was talking about the PL.


I hear ya SE, but with the NEC getting dangerously close to fielding similar quality teams to Patriot and Ivy schools- the old slippery slope effect comes into play and before you know it the PL auto is in jeopardy.

[UAalum72]

I hear ya SE, but with the NEC getting dangerously close to fielding similar quality teams to Patriot and Ivy schools- the old slippery slope effect comes into play and before you know it the PL auto is in jeopardy.
Why 'dangerously' close, Frank? You make that sound like a bad thing.

[DetroitFlyer]

Hey, Dayton beat the first place team in the PL and potential future PFL team Marist beat the last place team in the PL, so I guess the PFL is there already.... LOL.

I do not think that top to bottom the NEC or PFL is on a par with the PL, but the top teams in both leagues certainly are today. I think that Dayton, San Diego and Morehead State would all have done well in the PL this year. Albany and CCSU as well. Wagner and Davidson would probably both be better than GT.

The fact that both Albany and Dayton beat Fordham this year, and both are not considered for the playoffs by most on this board, is a great argument for expansion, access and inclusion relative to the FCS playoffs.

[Dane96]

They have upgraded due to the issues they have faced in trying to get into the playoffs. They have responded and not rested on their laurels...



Sacred Heart vs Assumption. Wagner vs W Connecticut St. CCSU vs S Connecticut St. CCSU vs Merrimack.




We're talking about scholarships. Full allotment versus none at all...

Again, do research. These games are because ST PETER's dropped their program.

Next.

[Dane96]

You do have national programs. You can fail to offer scholarships to kids all over the nation.

The playoff teams are apples...you are oranges. Non-scholarship oranges.
xnodx

We give 30 scholarships (after this recruiting cycle).

Next.

[Dane96]

This is NOT a sub-par schedule (San Diego)????

Sat, Sep 1 at Azusa Pacific W 42-32 --
Sat, Sep 8 Marist W 38-17 --
Sat, Sep 15 Northern Colorado W 49-13 --
Sat, Sep 29 at Butler W 56-9 --
Sat, Oct 6 at Valparaiso W 41-27 --
Sat, Oct 13 Drake W 59-19 --
Sat, Oct 20 Jacksonville W 62-23 --
Sat, Oct 27 at Dayton L 16-35 --
Sat, Nov 3 Davidson W 52-49 --
Sat, Nov 10 at Morehead State 1:00 pm --
Sat, Nov 17 at California-Davis 4:30 pm --

This would be a laughable schedule for any team in the Southland, Southern, Gateway, Great West, Big Sky, or Colonial.

As far as Southland Basketball, Northwestern St. upset #3 seed and Big 10 champion Iowa in the 2006 NCAA tourney. In 2007, Texas A&M-Corpus Christi nearly beat #2 seed Wisconsin in the tourney. In 2005, Southeastern LA came close to knocking off #2 Oklahoma St. before losing in the end.

Northwestern St. regularly plays top basketball competition for its OOC schedule, many times winning including teams from the Southeastern, Big 12, Pac 10, etc.

Reading must not be fundamental at MACNEESE.

I said San Diego had a horrible schedule and your boy Texas Terror was off putting them in the same category as Albany who played Fordham, Colgate, Montana, and Hofstra...and has UMass, UNH, Delaware, Hofstra, and others on the schedule next season.

As for top competition...buddy...Albany has been in the NCAA's two straight years, almost took down UCONN...and has been nationally televised for TWO straight bracketbusters, along with facing DUKE on ESPN this Dec.

Oh...and we have only been D1 for 8 years.

Next.

[Dane96]

Well, if we're going to go back to 1979, I feel it prudent to point out that the Southland wasn't a 1-AA league then. McNeese won the league, appeared in the AP and UPI top 20 polls and played Syracuse in the Independence Bowl that year, when the Orangemen had Art Monk and Joe Morris...xlolx

You want to go historical...I suggest researching a school known as HOLY CROSS.

[TexasTerror]

Again, do research. These games are because ST PETER's dropped their program.

You said there were no sub-Div I games. Does not matter the reason. You didn't throw out that exception when you first stated it...NEXT! xrulesx

[Dane96]

Well gee, I guess I didnt realize that having to FILL your schedule about a month before the reason started doesn't allow for an exception.

How about you counter my OTHER arguments...the ones with meat.

Furthermore, I love how the Southland fans point out the Northwestern basketball victories and near misses-- RIGHTLY SO!

Why do I say I love it? Because it proves the point we are trying to make: Following the "rules" as your Presidents and Commish would like, NW State would never have that opportunity to play those games because they are WOEFULLY underfunded compared to that of the Syracuse's or even SIENA's of the world.

But, by virtue of the autobid, we are blessed to watch the Demons take on teams and nearly beat them.

So, compare that to a, let's say ALBANY, who comparatively (to the hoop analogy) gives out less money than NW State-- Why is the hoop/football argument different.

The financial argument, as stated ad nauseum, does not make much sense. THE COST OF THE TOURNEY, THE TIME FRAME, ETC...have more of a shot.

[TexasTerror]

Not seeing how the SLC teams are underfunded compared to Syracuse and Siena. They have just as many scholarships. It's not like your comparing FBS to fully-funded FCS. Your comparing teams with the same amount of scholarships...

There's a huge difference between equally scholarshiped baseball and basketball teams compared to fully-funded FCS to non-scholly FCS.

You know PVA&M got their record losing streak when they lacked scholarships while playing against fully-scholarshiped SWAC teams. When they actually got scholarships, they could compete.

Go back to the drawing board...

[Franks Tanks]

Why 'dangerously' close, Frank? You make that sound like a bad thing.


It is a bad thing for the PL, you guys are stealing our recruits!! But I am overall happy the NEC is improving.

[Dane96]

Not seeing how the SLC teams are underfunded compared to Syracuse and Siena. They have just as many scholarships. It's not like your comparing FBS to fully-funded FCS. Your comparing teams with the same amount of scholarships...

There's a huge difference between equally scholarshiped baseball and basketball teams compared to fully-funded FCS to non-scholly FCS.

You know PVA&M got their record losing streak when they lacked scholarships while playing against fully-scholarshiped SWAC teams. When they actually got scholarships, they could compete.

Go back to the drawing board...

You cannot be serious with this argument?! First, not every school (and I am not talking Southland here because quite frankly, I don't know) in March Madness eligible conferences give out full allotments.

THAT'S a fact!!! Vermont, the year they beat Syracuse-- had just given their full allotment. They were at 8 of 13 available rides.

Second, the amount of $$$ spent at Syracuse (or even Siena) does make a difference because of the amenities a program and its players receive, such as recruiting budgets, asst. salaries, lockerooms, etc. These all entice kids to come to school.

Now, if you look at the conferences and schools that spend $$$ you will find a that they equate to the "RANKING" of the conference (e.g. Southland and America East are well below that of Conference USA or the A-Ten).

You may give 13 rides...but you are not getting the 13 best players.

All that being said, Southland (and America East and IVY teams, as examples) have shown they are worthy of hoop bids despite disparate spending.

In football, the PL has proven it has belonged once they go their auto-bid. The NEC, as an example, has shown it can hang and beat the FCS big boys with much less $$. Unlike PVAM, the Albany's, Monmouth's, and CCSU's have beaten the big boys with NO SCHOLARSHIPS!

Now, they want to prove it, like the PL, in the playoffs.

It is no different than hoop.

[Syntax Error]

... In football, the PL has proven it has belonged once they go their auto-bid...You mean the PL teams proved it BEFORE they got the AQ. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before in the FCS. And even before the FCS existed. Way before the other conferences existed. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before.

[Dane96]

Wait, SE, are you now going against what you wrote stating it would be good for the NEC to get the auto-bid?! I believe that was the case...or am I wrong. If so, I apologize.

And thanks SE, unlike what you may believe, some of us around here were FCS fans WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY before we read you, Mr. C and others. You know...kind like....WAAYYYYY back in the days when there was no FCS. Point: I don't need a lesson on when the PL proved its point.

What I would like is an honest discussion on how the Southland, a low-major hoop conference by most standards, should be allowed to participate in March Madness and, further, how this can be applied to the football equation.

Argument for: Equal footing regarding scholarships.

Argument against: Scholarship equality does not translate to successful National Title aspirations.

As for the argument for, I posted that it is FACT that not all Conferences (and teams) give the full 13 allotment of scholarships. One conference, the Patriot League, did not give scholarships at all until a few years ago (hence the rise of John Feinstein's fabulous book). One league still does not (if you want to believe it)-- The IVY.

Additionally, a team who upset a major conference foe, VERMONT, did not have scholarship allotments filled to the max at any time in there 100 year history until 3 or 4 years ago.

So, equal footing is not a great argument.

Turning to the argument against why a conference, such as the Southland, should be in the tourney, we have the FACT that the amount of $$$ spent by conferences and schools directly translates into LEGIT national title hopes.

Additionally, one cannot argue the Gonzaga card. The MVC and the WCC are far from non-spending conferences. In fact, the coaches at Gonzaga and Wichita State make nearly 1 million a year in salary and play in huge arenas (or fancy new ones). There spending budgets are in the multi-millions.

Whereas, schools in the Southland spend 400k (some).

So again, we have:

1. The Southland Commish having met pot-kettle-black; and
2. A pretty comparative analogy between football tourneys and hoop tourneys (but for the time frame, which is not part of this argument-- this was strictly a $$ argument as stated by the Southland Commish).

Getting more direct, the Southland Commish argues that because we don't play a National schedule and because we dont spend more than 30 rides, the NEC is not deserving.

Well, for one thing, the NEC does play a National schedule because the East Coast is filled with National teams. Yes, some teams in the league don't hold up their end of the bargain-- But that occurs in the OVC, the MEAC, the PL, etc. Finally, without rides the NEC is beating and playing close with National teams. The impact of 30 rides will not be felt until 2009 and will only increase the NEC's competitiveness with those National teams they already play tight.

Please respond with well-thought out responses that speak to what I posit here-- Refrain from rehashing tired old arguments.

[joecooll6]

Hasnt anyone ever thought of making a third tier of Division I football for non-fully funded teams that can play for their own national title? It makes sense to me. Scholarship and non scholarship teams arent the same thing just like 63 scholarship and 85 scholarship teams arent the same thing. I know it would never happen, but maybe that WOULD be the best alternative.

[Syntax Error]

Wait, SE, are you now going against the article you wrote stating it would be good for the NEC to get the auto-bid?

I believe that was the case...or am I wrong.I wrote no article. You are mixed up. I said in my post
the PL teams proved it BEFORE they got the AQ. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before in the FCS. And even before the FCS existed. Way before the other conferences existed. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before.

[Syntax Error]

Hasnt anyone ever thought of making a third tier of Division I football for non-fully funded teams that can play for their own national title? It makes sense to me. Scholarship and non scholarship teams arent the same thing just like 63 scholarship and 85 scholarship teams arent the same thing. I know it would never happen, but maybe that WOULD be the best alternative.The PFL Commish has been pushing this for years, the NCAA members won't go for it.

[TexasTerror]

The PFL Commish has been pushing this for years, the NCAA members won't go for it.

The PFL Commish is a realist...she can see the light. Unfortunately, the NCAA does not know how to handle this bunch. Don't want them in Div III, do not give them true access in Div I. Don't know where to put them...

[Dane96]

I wrote no article. You are mixed up. I said in my post

Yep...I checked...and for that I say I was wrong.

And that question was not just for you...but all!

[joecooll6]

It would be fun I think. And it would give the non schollies something to play for- a real national champion among teams from their level. As a relatively big Drake fan, I think it would be fun seeing Drake play for a National Championship some year.

Im seeing something like this
Dayton, San Diego, Morehead State, Albany, CCSU, Wagner, Davidson and Iona in an 8 team bracket playing for the NC!

[Dane96]

Agreed, one thing:

THE NEC IS not a non-scholly league..we need to separate the league from the NON-SCHOLLY ARGUMENT! The NEC is not a part of that.

However, there is talk of more schools adding non-scholly football. IF that was the case...then have that tourney.

The NCAA wants to have its cake and eat it...but they cannot do so anymore. Either let the non-scholly's have their own NC GAME...or give them a legit (read auto-bid) shot at the playoffs...or allow them to participate in DIII.

The DIII argument is tough...because the DIII schools would go nuts on the NCAA and threaten a move out. They carry some considerable clout as was found in the DIII/DI one-sport vote.

[joecooll6]

Something like this!

Iona @ San Diego
Davidson @ Albany
Morehead State @ CCSU
Wagner @ Dayton

[joecooll6]

But it isnt a full FCS league either. It isnt realistic to think that an NEC team will ever win the national championship.

[Dane96]

And therein lies the argument:

1. Most years the Big South (right now...not future), the OVC, the PL, and the MEAC won't win National titles. Why are they getting auto-bids. Yeah, yeah...they proved it (Colgate...FAMU). Old news. Fine...then let the NCAA institute a 5 year "watch-period" to compile the NEC's stats against the big boys. If it equals that to what those leagues above did...then get a bid. At least it would be palatable.

2. The March Madness tourney, most years only 6-7 leagues out of 32 have LEGIT national title hopes. Yes, we have the CAA's and other mid-majors making some noise...but if they get to the Final Game it is considered a major story. Why do we allow 24-26 leagues autobids in hoops.

Same can be said for every auto-bid sport, especially baseball.

Come on guys....

I would love to discuss this with the Southland Commish...because maybe I am REALLY missing it. More likely: people hate change and will cling to any small argument in hopes to derail the change.

[McNeese_beat]

We give 30 scholarships (after this recruiting cycle).

Next.

Oh sorry. The playoff leagues are 63 scholarships apples to your 30-scholarships scholarship oranges. woxcoffeex

I don't think the Vermont basketball example is a good example for you to use unless Vermont were in a conference of teams that, as a general practice, did not fully fund 13 scholarships. For example, Tennessee-Martin used to not fund all 63 football scholarships (it does now, I believe), but nobody was screaming to take away the OVC's autobid because the mainstream of the conference does fund 63 scholarships.

That's completely different from "mid-major" FCS football.

It is not only legitimate for the FCS to look at such leagues and say "no," it's the smart thing to do to maintain some sense of standards within your division.

[joecooll6]

Because in football we already have two seperate divisions for two seperate levels of football. FBS is for teams that have 85 scholarships, FCS is for teams that have 63 scholarships. Those teams from the NEC and PFL and MAAC dont really fit that category. It makes sense to give them their own level.

I understand your arguement, and I believe that every conference with 63 scholly teams that has 6 members should get an auto bid. And really, IF youre going to lump those other schools into FCS they should get autobids too (along with expansion). I just think that those schools shouldnt be in the FCS.

[McNeese_beat]

Well gee, I guess I didnt realize that having to FILL your schedule about a month before the reason started doesn't allow for an exception.

How about you counter my OTHER arguments...the ones with meat.

Furthermore, I love how the Southland fans point out the Northwestern basketball victories and near misses-- RIGHTLY SO!

Why do I say I love it? Because it proves the point we are trying to make: Following the "rules" as your Presidents and Commish would like, NW State would never have that opportunity to play those games because they are WOEFULLY underfunded compared to that of the Syracuse's or even SIENA's of the world.

But, by virtue of the autobid, we are blessed to watch the Demons take on teams and nearly beat them.

So, compare that to a, let's say ALBANY, who comparatively (to the hoop analogy) gives out less money than NW State-- Why is the hoop/football argument different.

The financial argument, as stated ad nauseum, does not make much sense. THE COST OF THE TOURNEY, THE TIME FRAME, ETC...have more of a shot.

Northwestern State and the SLC meet all the funding requirements to maintain an autobid to the NCAA tournament.

You don't just get an autobid for putting together 6 schools and saying "we're a conference, we're D-I and we want in!"

Similarly, the FCS has set standards for teams to receive an automatic berth to its football playoff. The NEC and PFL do not meet those standards. Now, if Albany wants to get involved in the FCS post-season, apply for membership in the Colonial (where you can't compete athletically) or the Patriot (where you, as a SUNY, share little in common with the institutions in general). The mainstream of those conferences do fully fund scholarships.

[Syntax Error]

Oh sorry. The playoff leagues are 63 scholarships apples to your 30-scholarships scholarship oranges. woxcoffeex
I don't think the Vermont basketball example is a good example for you to use unless Vermont were in a conference of teams that, as a general practice, did not fully fund 13 scholarships. For example, Tennessee-Martin used to not fund all 63 football scholarships (it does now, I believe), but nobody was screaming to take away the OVC's autobid because the mainstream of the conference does fund 63 scholarships.
That's completely different from "mid-major" FCS football.
It is not only legitimate for the FCS to look at such leagues and say "no," it's the smart thing to do to maintain some sense of standards within your division.Hold off now Mbeat. FCS includes "such leagues" including the SLC and say yes. Start redefining and maybe the redefining may hit too close to home. This ain't baskeetball and can never be compared to it in these discussions. Sure, the NEC has not proven all that competitively but the order of the day now is eligibility and the NEC fills that bill. So does the PFL which regularly tops the NEC in rankings etc.

[Syntax Error]

You don't just get an autobid for putting together 6 schools and saying "we're a conference, we're D-I and we want in!"You sure do, welcome to 2007!

http://www.collegesportingnews.com/article.asp?articleid=87791

I also listened to WAVES this week and John Hardt who sat on both committees.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/iaawaves/20071030CSNWAVESfinal.mp3

[Dane96]

Because in football we already have two seperate divisions for two seperate levels of football. FBS is for teams that have 85 scholarships, FCS is for teams that have 63 scholarships. Those teams from the NEC and PFL and MAAC dont really fit that category. It makes sense to give them their own level.

I understand your arguement, and I believe that every conference with 63 scholly teams that has 6 members should get an auto bid. And really, IF youre going to lump those other schools into FCS they should get autobids too (along with expansion). I just think that those schools shouldnt be in the FCS.

I do agree with you to an extent. However, the NCAA has yet to institute standards. If they did, bet your bottom $$ that the NEC would come up to that number or the teams, such as ALBANY, would leave if the NEC did not.

When the NCAA comes up with a number...then we have black and white. Right now we have a whole lotta grey!

[Dane96]

Northwestern State and the SLC meet all the funding requirements to maintain an autobid to the NCAA tournament.

You don't just get an autobid for putting together 6 schools and saying "we're a conference, we're D-I and we want in!"

Similarly, the FCS has set standards for teams to receive an automatic berth to its football playoff. The NEC and PFL do not meet those standards. Now, if Albany wants to get involved in the FCS post-season, apply for membership in the Colonial (where you can't compete athletically) or the Patriot (where you, as a SUNY, share little in common with the institutions in general). The mainstream of those conferences do fully fund scholarships.

Huh? Ummm...there are no funding requirements I am aware of. There are no minimum requirements of scholarship allotments. If that were the case, the IVY would not be getting a bid, nor would the PL because until a few years ago, they to did not offer scholarships. Additionally, the PIG was instituted because that exact thing happened; a new conference, Mountain West, was formed and they needed room. The PIG now gets a new bonus of 200k for the winning team.

Furthermore, the America East did not offer, as a full conference, full allotments of rides until a few years ago. Additionally, teams in the Atlantic Sun and Sun-Belt were also (some still are) underfunded in hoops.

Albany can apply for membership...however the CAA is not accepting. What we do is play New Hampshire, Maine, Hofstra, Fordham, Northeastern, Delaware, Montana, Brown, Lehigh, Colgate, UMASS, etc.

If that is not a national schedule...I am not sure what is.

As for the PL, Albany applied in 1999 and was denied. It is not a a public school league, sans the Towson experiment/marriage of convienence.

That being said-- I point to Georgetown (not a shot at the Hoyas...sorry guys) as an under-funded program.

[hebmskebm]

the NEC, Big South, and (eventually) Great West are all now or will soon be banging at the door to get an AQ into the playoffs

all three have teams that can and have beaten elite teams from the AQ conferences. the nec far more closely resembles a traditional fcs conference than they do the pioneer/maac.

face it, the 16 team playoff will soon go the way of the buffalo....

[Syntax Error]

... face it, the 16 team playoff will soon go the way of the buffalo....I think that has been established.

[Dane96]

Well, the memo did not get to the SLC Commish.

[Syntax Error]

Well, the memo did not get to the SLC Commish.Or some of the SLC members here. xlolx

[Syntax Error]

McNeese State vs. Dayton in the opening round?

[DetroitFlyer]

McNeese State vs. Dayton in the opening round?

Bring em on or any other FCS team baby!!!!!

Dayton Flyers for an at large bid in 2007 baby!!!!!!!!!

By the way, the PFL has been ranked above the NEC almost all season. Good thing the NEC looks much more like a traditional FCS conference....

[McNeese_beat]

Bring em on or any other FCS team baby!!!!!

Dayton Flyers for an at large bid in 2007 baby!!!!!!!!!

By the way, the PFL has been ranked above the NEC almost all season. Good thing the NEC looks much more like a traditional FCS conference....

Hey, Dayton doesn't want any part of McNeese. Last time the Flyers came slumming down here was the...(was it 1985?) NIT and McNeese blew them out of the Civic Center...

xrotatehx xrotatehx

[McTailGator]

Hey, Dayton doesn't want any part of McNeese. Last time the Flyers came slumming down here was the...(was it 1985?) NIT and McNeese blew them out of the Civic Center...

xrotatehx xrotatehx



They did play football down in Lake Charles in the 70's or 80's during a Hurricane too. I think.

[MSU_77]

They did play football down in Lake Charles in the 70's or 80's during a Hurricane too. I think.

Yes, it was 1975 and I was there. There was a tropical storm blowing in and the game was played in horizontal rain and 50MPH wind. It was the only McNeese game I was ever able to watch from the student side and not the bandstand, although I spent most of the game huddling under one of the entryways. Dayton won the Mud Bowl 17-12.