Is Holy Cross the Notre Dame of FCS-level football?

[Sader87]

Just curious what others here think. I am by no means a big ND fan lol but I think HC sort of fits this description at the FCS-level.

We recruit at a national'level, are a private, Catholic school, have played inter-collegiate football for ovah a 120 years, have a long, rich history of college football etc.

I think we sort of fit that description.

You can definitely hate us like Notre Dame too lol.....Happy Holidays all!

[uofmman1122]

No offense, but you guys have not won nearly enough for people to hate you like they hate Notre Dame.

[MIBT]

Definitely a lot of parallels as you pointed out. But where they diverge is many people don't dislike Holy Cross like they do Notre Dame. They may recruit nationally, but they don't have a national following, even a relative FCS level following. I think of them as another private East Coast so that does well locally, but struggles when they run into other teams around the country. No different than Stony Brook, Lehigh, Fordham, or Colgate.

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[Sader87]

No offense, but you guys have not won nearly enough for people to hate you like they hate Notre Dame.

Fair point....though we could have won a lot in the late 80s and early 90s when we were scholarship but not allowed to participate in the FCS playoffs....

Most polls had HC the #1 team in the country in 1987

Holy Cross football was adrift as a non-scholarship program from 1992 to about 2015 when they re-established scholarships.

[Go...gate]

Just curious what others here think. I am by no means a big ND fan lol but I think HC sort of fits this description at the FCS-level.

We recruit at a national'level, are a private, Catholic school, have played inter-collegiate football for ovah a 120 years, have a long, rich history of college football etc.

I think we sort of fit that description.

You can definitely hate us like Notre Dame too lol.....Happy Holidays all!

In terms of academic prestige, yes.

[bonarae]

They are not that nationally known as ND, but HC deserves more recognition despite it not yet as formidable as MVFC teams...

Perhaps HC needs to play teams south of the Potomac and west of the Mississippi River to get even more recognition.

[Laker]

Reasons why Holy Cross football is much cooler than Notre Dame.

1. Holy Cross is in a conference instead of being an independent.
2. According to their site, they only have one color- purple.
3. Had Gordie Lockbaum as a true two way player.
4. They haven't caved and changed their name from the Crusaders as a number of other schools have (see Valpo).

No hatred here for Holy Cross.

[centraljerseycat]

No hatred for Holy Cross on my end. Big fan of your Head Coach and would love to see the Crusaders play Nova every year like we do Lehigh. You guys haven't had the ongoing success to be the ND of FCS. Heck Villanova has been the top Catholic FCS program of the past 25 years-(of course we had Coach Talley for the vast majority of that success.)

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, in the sense they have the most insufferable fans.

[clenz]

When you say recruit nationally, what exactly do you mean? Getting a couple random players from outside of the Northeast/east coast? If that's all it takes then I'd say UNI recruits nationally as well, and something like ~75% of our roster is from within 5-6 hours of Cedar Falls (I realize hours is different to the east coast than us here so I'll go with 300-400 miles)


By my count of the 94 players listed on your roster come from the same basic geographic footprint that any midwestern school would recruit from when translated to out here.

When you look at the kids from outside fo your area you have specific pipeline schools but not regions it seems

Both kids from California when to Archbishop Mitty
2 kids from Illinois went to Loyola Academy
2 of the 3 kids from Ohio went to St. Xavier in Cincinatti
Florida is the only state outside of the footprint where half, or more of the kids, don't come from one school. Outside of Florida about 60-65% of your "national" kids come from about 5 schools.

Heck, in general most of your roster comes from just a fairly small number of schools compared to anywhere else. Over 30% of your roster comes from just 10 schools nationally.

That's a fantastic private school pipeline, not exactly recruiting nationally compared to those of us in middle pulling kids from PA, FL, TX, GA, CA, AZ, CO, etc. one or two at a time from an entire state.

To answer the premise of the thread

In Holy Cross fans minds? You're absolutely ND'
To anyone else? No.

[JSUSoutherner]

No.

Holy Cross overachieves.

Notre Dame hardly even achieves anymore.

[DFW HOYA]

No. Not now, not close.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Stumbled into this highlight last night. I vaguely remember the 1987 Lehigh-HC game (Lockbaum) at Taylor Stadium due to the score. That is probably my earliest football memory.


The video should start a few seconds before the Crusaders/Eagles highlights from Fitton....

https://youtu.be/MPeVLoztFCw?t=271

[UNHWildcat18]

If anything, Villanova is probably the most well known Catholic school at the FCS level.. Honestly though no one cares about The Who is who at the FCS level….

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If anything, Villanova is probably the most well known Catholic school at the FCS level.. Honestly though no one cares about The Who is who at the FCS level….

It's absolutely Villanova. Not only athletically but academically. DFW is our resident Catholic school poster so I will ultimately defer to him. But I would say...

The Big 4....
1. Notre Dame
2. Georgetown
3. Boston College
4. Villanova
Then it would get interesting, Holy Cross? Fordham? St. Louis? Loyola Chicago? Loyola Marymount? Santa Clara?

I do find it interesting two Catholic schools, Fordham and Holy Cross, have separated themselves from the rest of the PL. The Rams will still be pretty good next year despite tons of key seniors departing and Conlin's so-so in game coaching acumen. There's always talent in the Bronx....

I should also note that I believe UIW and HC both deserve final Top 5 rankings......

[UAalum72]

I think of them as another private East Coast so that does well locally, but struggles when they run into other teams around the country. No different than Stony Brook, Lehigh, Fordham, or Colgate.

Sent from my SM-S906U using TapatalkThe State University of New York at Stony Brook is not private, nor have they ever done especially well even locally (one 9-win and two 10-win seasons in their entire history)

[KPSUL]

The State University of New York at Stony Brook is not private, nor have they ever done especially well even locally (one 9-win and two 10-win seasons in their entire history)

Which reinforces what we already knew - MBIT is delving into something he knows virtually nothing about.

[KPSUL]

Just curious what others here think. I am by no means a big ND fan lol but I think HC sort of fits this description at the FCS-level.

We recruit at a national'level, are a private, Catholic school, have played inter-collegiate football for ovah a 120 years, have a long, rich history of college football etc.

I think we sort of fit that description.

You can definitely hate us like Notre Dame too lol.....Happy Holidays all!

No one hates anything about Holy Cross beyond this sort of AGS post. Comparing Notre Dame and Holy Cross football makes about as much sense as comparing the USA to Belize or Montenegro.

[clenz]

It's absolutely Villanova. Not only athletically but academically. DFW is our resident Catholic school poster so I will ultimately defer to him. But I would say...

The Big 4....
1. Notre Dame
2. Georgetown
3. Boston College
4. Villanova
Then it would get interesting, Holy Cross? Fordham? St. Louis? Loyola Chicago? Loyola Marymount? Santa Clara?

I do find it interesting two Catholic schools, Fordham and Holy Cross, have separated themselves from the rest of the PL. The Rams will still be pretty good next year despite tons of key seniors departing and Conlin's so-so in game coaching acumen. There's always talent in the Bronx....

I should also note that I believe UIW and HC both deserve final Top 5 rankings......If we are talking most nationally known? Holy Cross isn't anywhere near the top 10 for Catholic schools. If you want to shoe horn other things in beyond "most known" then so be it but schools I'd put nationally ahead of Holy Cross for the average, or even above average, sports fan in America


Gonzaga
Creighton
Butler
Loyola-Chicago
St. Mary's
Xavier
Dayton
DePaul
St. Louis
Marquette
Siena
Seton Hall
St. John's
Loyola-Marymount
Fordham


I think there is a pretty strong case for San Diego as well. If you're super old school then there is San Francisco.



I guess if you want to go "Notre Dame of the FCS" and go with football-only schools and narrow it down to where you only have 13 total programs to try to rank then I guess keep making the criteria smaller and smaller until you get the answer you're looking for.

Even using "only FCS football schools" I don't know that Holy Cross is the runaway for it.

Let's not pretend Holy Cross has decades of dominating the FCS. A good run between 86-91 and then being the best out of the trash that is the Patriot since 2019. Between that? Holy Cross has been, for lack of a better word, trash between 91 and 19. They were 120-181. 18 losing seasons. Only 5 seasons with more than 6 wins, and 4 of those were 7 win seasons.

Even including the last 4 that is 5 playoff appearances since 1991 with a playoff record of 2-7 all time. The wins were a 5th place CAA team that probably shouldn't have even been in the playoffs and a NEC team in Sacred Heart

Though I will grant Holy Cross they are as addicted to the ancient football history as Notre Dame. Even that is largely a very small portion of their history.

In 53 years at the "high" level of football before they joined the FCS in 1982 only 5 times where they ranked in the final poll of the season. The most recent time was 1951. The final 20 seasons of football at that level saw just 6 winning seasons, and 2 of those were seasons 19 and 20 going backward. Only 11 times in those 53 years did they have at least 7 wins: 78, 61, 52, 51, 45, 39, 36, 38, 03, 01

That means in 93 seasons Holy Cross has 7+ wins just 13 times. That is an average of just ones every 7+ years.

Is this really the "Notre Dame" of smaller school Catholic schools?

I think what Sader is confusing for "a national hate/dislike of Holy Cross" is a hatred of the **** he posts in regards to "Are we Notre Dame" "1987!!!!!!!!" "The FCS sucks and playoffs suck!!!" and his droopy dog negativity about everything FCS related.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If we are talking most nationally known? Holy Cross isn't anywhere near the top 10 for Catholic schools. If you want to shoe horn other things in beyond "most known" then so be it but schools I'd put nationally ahead of Holy Cross for the average, or even above average, sports fan in America


Gonzaga
Creighton
Butler
Loyola-Chicago
St. Mary's
Xavier
Dayton
DePaul
St. Louis
Marquette
Siena
Seton Hall
St. John's
Loyola-Marymount
Fordham


I think there is a pretty strong case for San Diego as well. If you're super old school then there is San Francisco.



I guess if you want to go "Notre Dame of the FCS" and go with football-only schools and narrow it down to where you only have 13 total programs to try to rank then I guess keep making the criteria smaller and smaller until you get the answer you're looking for.

Even using "only FCS football schools" I don't know that Holy Cross is the runaway for it.

Let's not pretend Holy Cross has decades of dominating the FCS. A good run between 86-91 and then being the best out of the trash that is the Patriot since 2019. Between that? Holy Cross has been, for lack of a better word, trash between 91 and 19. They were 120-181. 18 losing seasons. Only 5 seasons with more than 6 wins, and 4 of those were 7 win seasons.

Even including the last 4 that is 5 playoff appearances since 1991 with a playoff record of 2-7 all time. The wins were a 5th place CAA team that probably shouldn't have even been in the playoffs and a NEC team in Sacred Heart

Though I will grant Holy Cross they are as addicted to the ancient football history as Notre Dame. Even that is largely a very small portion of their history.

In 53 years at the "high" level of football before they joined the FCS in 1982 only 5 times where they ranked in the final poll of the season. The most recent time was 1951. The final 20 seasons of football at that level saw just 6 winning seasons, and 2 of those were seasons 19 and 20 going backward. Only 11 times in those 53 years did they have at least 7 wins: 78, 61, 52, 51, 45, 39, 36, 38, 03, 01

That means in 93 seasons Holy Cross has 7+ wins just 13 times. That is an average of just ones every 7+ years.

Is this really the "Notre Dame" of smaller school Catholic schools?

I think what Sader is confusing for "a national hate/dislike of Holy Cross" is a hatred of the **** he posts in regards to "Are we Notre Dame" "1987!!!!!!!!" "The FCS sucks and playoffs suck!!!" and his droopy dog negativity about everything FCS related.

Trust me, Sader87 and overzealous go hand in hand.

I was looking at it from a holistic "prestige" perspective; academics, athletic reputation, location, peer applicant pool, ebbs and flows. Holy Cross is no question a hot school here in the Northeast. My ties to prominent country clubs here in Northeast PA opens the door for some fascinating insight into the college decision making process for families with higher socioeconomic status. Scranton Preparatory High School, a Jesuit HS, has a long history of sending students to Notre Dame, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Fordham and Boston College. When I was in high school very little separated Villanova from the University of Scranton or Loyola MD. Heck, St. Joe's was the "cooler" Catholic school in the Philly area up until a decade or so ago; Hawk Hill, City Line Ave, Martelli, #1 hoops team, etc. La Salle started to take on water around the turn of the century.

There is usually a strong legacy influence as well. My neighbor/club colleague's family was pushing hard for his granddaughter to pick Brown (the parents and my neighbor are Brownies) over the University of Chicago. She picked UChicago and rightfully so imo...

St. John's and DePaul (lesser extent Marquette) are very similar. Solid, but somewhat unspectacular undergrad programs given cost but very good graduate options. Attend Fordham/Loyola Chicago for undergrad then St. John's or DePaul for grad school for a change of scenery....

[MIBT]

Which reinforces what we already knew - MBIT is delving into something he knows virtually nothing about.My mistake shows how even more irrelevant those schools are in the FCS football world. Very good regional schools with random names that give no geography clues. Most people outside the northeast have no idea where these schools are. Schools like Villanova, Temple, St. John's are more well-known nationally thanks to the men's basketball tournament.

Holy Cross is a great school with some old tradition. They hadn't done anything for years until 2019. They've made 4 straight playoffs going 2-4. They played very admirably against SDSU on the road a couple weeks ago. If they can build on that,they can separate from the other schools I listed. They are all great schools with generally decent football programs but have been unable to separate themselves.

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[clenz]

Trust me, Sader87 and overzealous go hand in hand.

I was looking at it from a holistic "prestige" perspective; academics, athletic reputation, location, peer applicant pool, ebbs and flows. Holy Cross is no question a hot school here in the Northeast. My ties to prominent country clubs here in Northeast PA opens the door for some fascinating insight into the college decision making process for families with higher socioeconomic status. Scranton Preparatory High School, a Jesuit HS, has a long history of sending students to Notre Dame, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Fordham and Boston College. When I was in high school very little separated Villanova from the University of Scranton or Loyola MD. Heck, St. Joe's was the "cooler" Catholic school in the Philly area up until a decade or so ago; Hawk Hill, City Line Ave, Martelli, #1 hoops team, etc. La Salle started to take on water around the turn of the century.

There is usually a strong legacy influence as well. My neighbor/club colleague's family was pushing hard for his granddaughter to pick Brown (the parents and my neighbor are Brownies) over the University of Chicago. She picked UChicago and rightfully so imo...

St. John's and DePaul (lesser extent Marquette) are very similar. Solid, but somewhat unspectacular undergrad programs given cost but very good graduate options. Attend Fordham/Loyola Chicago for undergrad then St. John's or DePaul for grad school for a change of scenery....
Right. That's why I wasn't about to include anything about academic prestige or any other things that one may add into such rankings. I went from a strictly "As an average (well above average if we are honest, as most here would be) fan nationally that isn't tied to any school nationally through myself, family, etc. where would I view Holy Cross", which would give a fairly good indication of where most would. I'd even state I "overvalue" Holy Cross more than 95% of general sports fans nationally in that I've actually heard of Holy Cros.

The private, especially Jesuit, setup is entirely different than anything anyone outside of it can really start to grasp as far as legacy and thinking about rivals in certain ways. We had Creighton in the MVC forever and the fan arguments they had with Drake were different than anyone else in the conference because they just didn't exist there. Now that I mention Drake - ****ing LUL that I wouldn't even put D+ ahead of Holy Cross on a list I made when it comes to Jesuit institutions I am more familiar with. They are such nothing to me that I don't even remember to include them.


I view the Jesuit school rankings and rivalries when really getting drilled into, quite similar to the HBCU (or Ivy) world. It's a small, niche, community that is tied to that world in ways most that aren't in it can't understand. Many times it crosses the D1/D2/D3 lines, just as the HBCU world will. Especially at the D1/FCS level it is concentrated so heavily to the NE. We have some schools out here but we don't have nearly the same concentration and overlap. Especially now with Creighton, Marquette, and Butler in the Big East and Loyola Duquesne, Dayton, etc. in the A10, etc. In the Valley we have Drake, Evansville, Valpo, and Bradley who will trash talk differently than the public schools, but still not the same way that the other schools that have moved on do.

We have a TON of private schools around these parts - Iowa has something like 25 private schools at the D3/NAIA level that play football, plus all the schools in Minnesota, Illinois, Nebraska and Dakota's in that mold. The vast majority (I'd guess 90%+) are tiny (<1500 kids) and Methodist or Lutheran and even those are a different world than anything we see at the public level. I spent time in that world playing at one of those D3s and being recruited by dozens of them out of HS and getting to see and hear al lthe takes about how one school is better than the other for reasons that a public school never pitched to me.

[Kramden]

Even if we limit the discussion to Football; not even a close comparison. HC has had a few good runs over the decades but has not been anywhere near as consistently prominent at the FCS level as ND has been at the FBS Level. Plus, the Patriot League is like winning the MAC or C-USA in FBS; which I doubt ND would consider something to brag about.

[DFW HOYA]

Even if we limit the discussion to Football; not even a close comparison. HC has had a few good runs over the decades but has not been anywhere near as consistently prominent at the FCS level as ND has been at the FBS Level. Plus, the Patriot League is like winning the MAC or C-USA in FBS; which I doubt ND would consider something to brag about.

Holy Cross is the Boston College of the FCS: a school with New England roots but less relevance outside it, one whose football programs dwarf their now-invisible basketball teams, and only brief stretches of national contention.

Yes, Holy Cross had a very good team this year, but they're playing in the weakest FCS conference (by far) not named the Pioneer. Outside of Holy Cross and Fordham, the remaining schools had a combined mark of 4-21 out of conference (and two of those wins were from Marist).

[crusader11]

To answer the question, Holy Cross is not to FCS as Notre Dame is to FBS.

BC a more apt parallel.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

To answer the question, Holy Cross is not to FCS as Notre Dame is to FBS.

BC a more apt parallel.

This thread got me thinking about the time Holy Cross and Fordham played in Ireland in 1991. The Rams nearly pulled off a historic upset. It takes resources and energy to pull off a game like that.

To be fair, the Northeast 1-AA programs maintained a unique relationship with the major media outlets until the late 90s. The Big East, Ivy, Patriot, Yankee/A10 all had their relevant niche....

[Fordham]

Omg, this thread should be a total embarrassment to all HC fans. I’ve rooted harder than anyone for them through these last playoff runs than anyone but I wish you guys would have realized that you need to show it’s actually the program and not the coach. Until you show this level of success across multiple staffs, please spare me the ND comparisons.

Seriously, so embarrassing

[bonarae]

Omg, this thread should be a total embarrassment to all HC fans. I’ve rooted harder than anyone for them through these last playoff runs than anyone but I wish you guys would have realized that you need to show it’s actually the program and not the coach. Until you show this level of success across multiple staffs, please spare me the ND comparisons.

Seriously, so embarrassing

Oh my. What program shall we compare them to next? xdontknowx

[crusader11]

Omg, this thread should be a total embarrassment to all HC fans. I’ve rooted harder than anyone for them through these last playoff runs than anyone but I wish you guys would have realized that you need to show it’s actually the program and not the coach. Until you show this level of success across multiple staffs, please spare me the ND comparisons.

Seriously, so embarrassing

Totally agree. Been cringeworthy reading through some of this thread.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If we are talking most nationally known? Holy Cross isn't anywhere near the top 10 for Catholic schools. If you want to shoe horn other things in beyond "most known" then so be it but schools I'd put nationally ahead of Holy Cross for the average, or even above average, sports fan in America


Gonzaga
Creighton
Butler
Loyola-Chicago
St. Mary's
Xavier
Dayton
DePaul
St. Louis
Marquette
Siena
Seton Hall
St. John's
Loyola-Marymount
Fordham


I think there is a pretty strong case for San Diego as well. If you're super old school then there is San Francisco.



I guess if you want to go "Notre Dame of the FCS" and go with football-only schools and narrow it down to where you only have 13 total programs to try to rank then I guess keep making the criteria smaller and smaller until you get the answer you're looking for.

Even using "only FCS football schools" I don't know that Holy Cross is the runaway for it.

Let's not pretend Holy Cross has decades of dominating the FCS. A good run between 86-91 and then being the best out of the trash that is the Patriot since 2019. Between that? Holy Cross has been, for lack of a better word, trash between 91 and 19. They were 120-181. 18 losing seasons. Only 5 seasons with more than 6 wins, and 4 of those were 7 win seasons.

Even including the last 4 that is 5 playoff appearances since 1991 with a playoff record of 2-7 all time. The wins were a 5th place CAA team that probably shouldn't have even been in the playoffs and a NEC team in Sacred Heart

Though I will grant Holy Cross they are as addicted to the ancient football history as Notre Dame. Even that is largely a very small portion of their history.

In 53 years at the "high" level of football before they joined the FCS in 1982 only 5 times where they ranked in the final poll of the season. The most recent time was 1951. The final 20 seasons of football at that level saw just 6 winning seasons, and 2 of those were seasons 19 and 20 going backward. Only 11 times in those 53 years did they have at least 7 wins: 78, 61, 52, 51, 45, 39, 36, 38, 03, 01

That means in 93 seasons Holy Cross has 7+ wins just 13 times. That is an average of just ones every 7+ years.

Is this really the "Notre Dame" of smaller school Catholic schools?

I think what Sader is confusing for "a national hate/dislike of Holy Cross" is a hatred of the **** he posts in regards to "Are we Notre Dame" "1987!!!!!!!!" "The FCS sucks and playoffs suck!!!" and his droopy dog negativity about everything FCS related.

You're generally not wrong about anything you posted here except UNH was the co-champion of the CAA this year, not the "5th place team".

[NY Crusader 2010]

Omg, this thread should be a total embarrassment to all HC fans. I’ve rooted harder than anyone for them through these last playoff runs than anyone but I wish you guys would have realized that you need to show it’s actually the program and not the coach. Until you show this level of success across multiple staffs, please spare me the ND comparisons.

Seriously, so embarrassing

Look at the time the thread was started. 1230AM in the middle of a holiday week.

[NY Crusader 2010]

[QUOTE=clenz;3106178]When you say recruit nationally, what exactly do you mean? Getting a couple random players from outside of the Northeast/east coast? If that's all it takes then I'd say UNI recruits nationally as well, and something like ~75% of our roster is from within 5-6 hours of Cedar Falls (I realize hours is different to the east coast than us here so I'll go with 300-400 miles)


By my count of the 94 players listed on your roster come from the same basic geographic footprint that any midwestern school would recruit from when translated to out here.

When you look at the kids from outside fo your area you have specific pipeline schools but not regions it seems

Both kids from California when to Archbishop Mitty
2 kids from Illinois went to Loyola Academy
2 of the 3 kids from Ohio went to St. Xavier in Cincinatti
Florida is the only state outside of the footprint where half, or more of the kids, don't come from one school. Outside of Florida about 60-65% of your "national" kids come from about 5 schools.

Heck, in general most of your roster comes from just a fairly small number of schools compared to anywhere else. Over 30% of your roster comes from just 10 schools nationally.

That's a fantastic private school pipeline, not exactly recruiting nationally compared to those of us in middle pulling kids from PA, FL, TX, GA, CA, AZ, CO, etc. one or two at a time from an entire state.

To answer the premise of the thread

In Holy Cross fans minds? You're absolutely ND'
To anyone else? No.[/QU

You've put together a pretty good breakdown of our current roster, in terms of where everyone's from. Historically (as in the time since I've been involved with the program), Holy Cross roster makeup is not too much different than most in the Patriot-Ivy group. The Ivies of course recruit a little bit more "nationally", with their roster truly coming together from all over the map. Over the last 20 years, Holy Cross has recruited well in OH, MI, IL (mainly Chicago area), DC area/northern VA, KY, AZ, metro Philly, NJ/NYC/LI (primarily the Catholic school leagus) + obviously MA and CT. When I was in school, we had the "Mr. Football" of both MA and CT on the team -- both were running backs. We've always recruited in California but very rarely, for whatever reason, have most of our CA recruits ever worked out as far as success at the college level.

[OhioHen]

Rather than trying to equate Holy Cross as the Notre Dame of FCS, a more appropriate comparison would stay much closer to home. Holy Cross may well be the Boston College of FCS.

[MIBT]

You've put together a pretty good breakdown of our current roster, in terms of where everyone's from. Historically (as in the time since I've been involved with the program), Holy Cross roster makeup is not too much different than most in the Patriot-Ivy group. The Ivies of course recruit a little bit more "nationally", with their roster truly coming together from all over the map. Over the last 20 years, Holy Cross has recruited well in OH, MI, IL (mainly Chicago area), DC area/northern VA, KY, AZ, metro Philly, NJ/NYC/LI (primarily the Catholic school leagus) + obviously MA and CT. When I was in school, we had the "Mr. Football" of both MA and CT on the team -- both were running backs. We've always recruited in California but very rarely, for whatever reason, have most of our CA recruits ever worked out as far as success at the college level.

This clarifies your definition of "nationally". That is a fairly small footprint. I met a guy in Boston several years ago who said he had been out west before (I was from the western US at the time). When I asked where he went, he replied "Pittsburgh." Perspective is interesting. Both Ohio and Nebraska consider themselves Midwest. Cleveland is much closer to Boston (650 miles) than Omaha (800 miles).

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[KPSUL]

My mistake shows how even more irrelevant those schools are in the FCS football world. Very good regional schools with random names that give no geography clues. Most people outside the northeast have no idea where these schools are. Schools like Villanova, Temple, St. John's are more well-known nationally thanks to the men's basketball tournament.

Holy Cross is a great school with some old tradition. They hadn't done anything for years until 2019. They've made 4 straight playoffs going 2-4. They played very admirably against SDSU on the road a couple weeks ago. If they can build on that,they can separate from the other schools I listed. They are all great schools with generally decent football programs but have been unable to separate themselves.

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It was probably unfair to single out your post in this thread, the whole thing is ridiculous to include the first post which is nothing more than baiting. DFW Hoya provides the only response needed: Holy Cross is the Boston College of FCS.

[MIBT]

.

It was probably unfair to single out your post in this thread, the whole thing is ridiculous to include the first post which is nothing more than baiting. DFW Hoya provides the only response needed: Holy Cross is the Boston College of FCS.

I get it. Fans like to inflate their own team's worth, and his comparisons were relevant. I agree he missed a few big ones that I pointed out. Notre Dame has a special place in college football that is very unique. Duke kind of has that in men's basketball, but their history is much more recent relatively. And all tied to Coach K. Time will tell if it continues. I agree a better comparison is Boston College. Still a very good school.

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[Bill]

I get it. Fans like to inflate their own team's worth, and his comparisons were relevant. I agree he missed a few big ones that I pointed out. Notre Dame has a special place in college football that is very unique. Duke kind of has that in men's basketball, but their history is much more recent relatively. And all tied to Coach K. Time will tell if it continues. I agree a better comparison is Boston College. Still a very good school.

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MBIT,
I understand the point you are trying to make...but Duke basketball may not be a good example of that. Yes, Coach K's success was incredible, and no Duke coach had done as much before him, but Duke was a legitimate basketball school before he got there - heck, Duke hoops was near the tops of program wins BEFORE he arrived (almost 1200). Here's a link to the coaches database where you can see things like three final fours back in the 1960's....

https://www.coachesdatabase.com/duke-blue-devils-basketball/

Cheers!xdrunkyx

[Laker]

MBIT,
I understand the point you are trying to make...but Duke basketball may not be a good example of that. Yes, Coach K's success was incredible, and no Duke coach had done as much before him, but Duke was a legitimate basketball school before he got there - heck, Duke hoops was near the tops of program wins BEFORE he arrived (almost 1200). Here's a link to the coaches database where you can see things like three final fours back in the 1960's....

https://www.coachesdatabase.com/duke-blue-devils-basketball/

Cheers!xdrunkyx

Spot on. I remember Duke in the Final Four pre Coach K- 1963, 1964, 1966, 1978

[MR. CHICKEN]

...UMMM!........WHEN THEY MAKE UH MOVIE.....'BOUT CHESNEY......THEN MAYBE YA'LL WILL..... HAVE ARRIVED..........BRAWK!

[KPSUL]

...UMMM!........WHEN THEY MAKE UH MOVIE.....'BOUT CHESNEY......THEN MAYBE YA'LL WILL..... HAVE ARRIVED..........BRAWK!

No, they'd also need a movie about a Scout Team player as well.

[Fordham]

Look at the time the thread was started. 1230AM in the middle of a holiday week.

point taken. I've done worse at that hour

[DFW HOYA]

If Patriot League teams were FCS schools...

Holy Cross...Boston College
Fordham...Cincinnati
Colgate...Syracuse
Lehigh and Lafayette...North Carolina and Duke
Bucknell...Oregon State
Georgetown...Rice (without the stadium)

[NY Crusader 2010]

This clarifies your definition of "nationally". That is a fairly small footprint. I met a guy in Boston several years ago who said he had been out west before (I was from the western US at the time). When I asked where he went, he replied "Pittsburgh." Perspective is interesting. Both Ohio and Nebraska consider themselves Midwest. Cleveland is much closer to Boston (650 miles) than Omaha (800 miles).

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I actually would consider Pittsburgh and Erie to be the Midwest. But of course, considering anything east of that in PA to also be the mid-west would be absurd.

You could even make a case for Buffalo but then it's a slippery slope so I would say no, Buffalo is mid-Atlantic. Because if Buffalo is the mid-west, then wouldn't Rochester also be mid-west? And if Rochester is, then Syracuse? Then Albany?

Never been to Wheeling, WV but it's possible you could make a case that it's the loan "mid-western" portion of West Virginia.

[clenz]

I actually would consider Pittsburgh and Erie to be the Midwest. But of course, considering anything east of that in PA to also be the mid-west would be absurd.

You could even make a case for Buffalo but then it's a slippery slope so I would say no, Buffalo is mid-Atlantic. Because if Buffalo is the mid-west, then wouldn't Rochester also be mid-west? And if Rochester is, then Syracuse? Then Albany?

Never been to Wheeling, WV but it's possible you could make a case that it's the loan "mid-western" portion of West Virginia.
Ohio, western NY and western PA are their own geographic region.

I, in no way, can fathom Ohio (especially east of Columbus) as Midwest. Anyone trying to tell me Pittsburg is Midwest is just silly.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Ohio, western NY and western PA are their own geographic region.

I, in no way, can fathom Ohio (especially east of Columbus) as Midwest. Anyone trying to tell me Pittsburg is Midwest is just silly.

Understood. So there's the answer. I'll consider Buffalo area, Erie, Pittsburgh and the state of Ohio as it's own region. Not sure what that would be called.

[clenz]

Understood. So there's the answer. I'll consider Buffalo area, Erie, Pittsburgh and the state of Ohio as it's own region. Not sure what that would be called.
I'm by no means the expert as it seems I'm in the minority. However, I just hate that people try to use like 3 or 4 "regions" for the US. I use a ton of them.

I know the rust belt is a lot larger than that area, but I call it the rust belt. I know that goes into most of Michigan, large parts of Indiana, NE Illinois to SE Wisconsin, but I just narrow it down to the Ohio, northern WV, Western PA, and Western NY region.

I also refuse to use state border as the cut-off for regions, which makes it more nuanced for me and puts me in the minority for most of these topics.

Rather than just going with Northeast, South, Midwest, West like most I go with things like Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, Southeast, Rust Belt, South, Southwest, Midwest (even this can get into plains vs prairie vs northwoods), Big Sky, Pacific NW, West Coast and it ends up little a bunch of states in half or thirds.

[Go...gate]

If Patriot League teams were FBS schools...

Holy Cross...Boston College
Fordham...Cincinnati
Colgate...Syracuse
Lehigh and Lafayette...North Carolina and Duke
Bucknell...Oregon State
Georgetown...Rice (without the stadium)

FIFY and I like your choices, though I might select Rutgers instead of Cincinnati as Fordham's "comparable" (far better academics).

Vanderbilt would be a better peer for Bucknell.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Patriot League teams were FCS schools...

Holy Cross...Boston College
Fordham...Cincinnati
Colgate...Syracuse
Lehigh and Lafayette...North Carolina and Duke
Bucknell...Oregon State
Georgetown...Rice (without the stadium)

Lehigh comes across as more "Michigan State"; Good history overall but some true peaks and valleys, every now and again the best team in the state/region (even among the best in the country) but more often than not playing catch-up, solid fan support but others have better, academically very good but once again, others are better....

Holy Cross/TCU - wealthy, historically significant, have disappeared for decades at a time, trust-funds, purple, located in a second-fiddle city

[DFW HOYA]

FIFY and I like your choices, though I might select Rutgers instead of Cincinnati as Fordham's "comparable" (far better academics).
Vanderbilt would be a better peer for Bucknell.

Lewisburg has more in common with Corvallis than Nashville.

[Sader87]

Stand by my statement. No Catholic FCS program has had the continous history and success more than Holy Cross ovah the last 100+ years.

Have we had the success that ND has had at the FBS level? Obviously no, but we continue to have the best football following among Catholic FCS schools as many other Catholic FCS schools (GTown, Villanova, Fordham etc) look to hoop as their primary sport not football.

Just sayin'...if there were to be an ND at the FCS-level...HC fits the bill more than any other Catholic school at the FCS-level.

[clenz]

Continuous success?

My brother, outside of 8 total seasons since the boomers the Eisenhower administration you’ve been a dog water program.


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[DFW HOYA]

Stand by my statement. No Catholic FCS program has had the continous history and success more than Holy Cross ovah the last 100+ years.


Villanova says, "Hold my beer."

VU: Five bowl games, 13 FCS playoff appearances, 2009 NCAA FCS title. Overall record 637–492–41 (.562)
HC: One bowl game, 6 FCS playoff appearances. Overall record 632–515–55 (.549)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Villanova clearly has been the better program over the last 30 years. It's not even close. I mean the Wildcats dominance over the PL is a great place to start. Then there's the national title, numerous playoff appearances, Walter Payton winners, players with NFL success, FBS wins, Andy Talley, etc....

Villanova's support is better than people think. Is it in-line with the school's basketball fandom or name recognition? No....but it's still respectable. In fact, I bet Villanova's average attendance holds its own, maybe even surpasses Holy Cross's over the last 30 years....

[Franks Tanks]

Villanova clearly has been the better program over the last 30 years. It's not even close. I mean the Wildcats dominance over the PL is a great place to start. Then there's the national title, numerous playoff appearances, Walter Payton winners, players with NFL success, FBS wins, Andy Talley, etc....

Villanova's support is better than people think. Is it in align with the school's basketball fandom or name recognition? No....but it's still respectable. In fact, I bet Villanova's average attendance holds its own, maybe even surpasses Holy Cross's over the last 30 years....

Agree, and Nova was a major college Indy prior to dropping football in I think 1981. Look at their schedules from that era prior to dropping: BC, Maryland, Temple, Rutgers even Ole Miss one year. Oh, they beat Holy Cross more often than not in those days. They are clearly the best Catholic FCS program, and arguably the private school with the most consistent success at the FCS level, period.

So that again brings us back to Holy Cross equals BC, aka second fiddle.

I like Holy Cross. Like many Catholic colleges they care about sports, have a great tradition and have a unique niche as a Jesuit liberal arts college. I very well may have went to Holy Cross if I wasn’t already exhausted by 12 years of Catholic education. No hate on the Saders, but our guy is wearing purple colored glasses.

[Sader87]

HC>Villanova when both schools have football scholarships....it will be that way moving forward too.

[DFW HOYA]

Of 38 Northeast schools in I-AA/FCS since 2001, Villanova ranks 3rd in winning percentage over that time, Holy Cross is 21st.

Of 102 Northeast schools in I-AA/FCS since 2001, Villanova ranks 12th in winning percentage, Holy Cross is 39th.

[Libertine]

Jeez, did FUGamebreaker trade one purple jersey for another? That's the only reason I can imagine for why this thread exists.

For the record, there are no FCS equivalents of any FBS schools or vice-versa. Be what you are or be a better version of same, but don't try to glom onto a more famous school's public image just to bathe in the reflected glimmer of of that school's imagined glory. It just makes you look like a cheap version of it.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross is the gold-standard of Catholic football programs at the FCS-level and it's really not close.....look at the history, the following HC has compared to other Catholic FCS programs.

[Sader87]

HC, with scholarships, is a very dangerous program....much of the FCS has't seen this as we've been non-scholarship for much of the last 30 years....with scholarships, HC is very very formidable.

[centraljerseycat]

I look forward to a competitive Patriot League opponent so I hope the scholarships do make Holy Cross really good ongoing. I've already said how much I like your coach and hope he sticks around but you are delusional if you think Holy Cross has been or will ever be the best Catholic FCS program.

[clenz]

Holy Cross is the Deon Sanders-coached Jackson State of the PWC universe.

[Sitting Bull]

I’ve always said UVA is the William & Mary of FBS.

[JacksFan40]

What is this thread? Norte Dame is one of the most recognizable brands in CFB, and is as important to its history as any other program. The brand is amplified with famous classic movies like Rudy. Notre Dame also has 11 titles, and while not as dominant as they once were, are still a consistently successful program over the last 10 years.

The only similarity between Holy Cross and Notre Dame is that they are catholic universities, the similarities end there.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I look forward to a competitive Patriot League opponent so I hope the scholarships do make Holy Cross really good ongoing. I've already said how much I like your coach and hope he sticks around but you are delusional if you think Holy Cross has been or will ever be the best Catholic FCS program.

Maybe we should follow the path set by the Celebration Bowl and have a "Catholic national championship" -- this year would've been Incarnate Word v. Holy Cross. I guess last year our Round of 16 NCAA game was the de facto "Catholic League" championship game.

Final 2022 FCS Catholic Rankings:

1) Incarnate Word
2) Holy Cross
3) Fordham
4) St. Francis (PA)
5) Villanova
6) St. Thomas MN
7) Merrimack
8) Dayton
9) Sacred Heart
10) Duquesne
11) San Diego
12) Stonehill
13) Georgetown
14) Valpo
15) Marist
16) Wagner

[DFW HOYA]

Valparaiso, Marist and Wagner are not Catholic schools.

[caribbeanhen]

Maybe we should follow the path set by the Celebration Bowl and have a "Catholic national championship" -- this year would've been Incarnate Word v. Holy Cross. I guess last year our Round of 16 NCAA game was the de facto "Catholic League" championship game.

Final 2022 FCS Catholic Rankings:

1) Incarnate Word
2) Holy Cross
3) Fordham
4) St. Francis (PA)
5) Villanova
6) St. Thomas MN
7) Merrimack
8) Dayton
9) Sacred Heart
10) Duquesne
11) San Diego
12) Stonehill
13) Georgetown
14) Valpo
15) Marist
16) Wagner

The last 4 teams on that list have been so bad they can never make it out of the confessional

[NY Crusader 2010]

Valparaiso, Marist and Wagner are not Catholic schools.

You're absolutely right. Will take into account when I put together my 2023 end of season Catholic rankings next December.

Apparently Marist became a secular institution in 2003.

I just assumed all these years that Wagner was Catholic. I guess because everyone I went to HS with that was from Staten Island was both very Italian and very Catholic. I guess I thought Valpo was too because of the Crusader nickname.

[ysubigred]

What is this thread? Norte Dame is one of the most recognizable brands in CFB, and is as important to its history as any other program. The brand is amplified with famous classic movies like Rudy. Notre Dame also has 11 titles, and while not as dominant as they once were, are still a consistently successful program over the last 10 years.

The only similarity between Holy Cross and Notre Dame is that they are catholic universities, the similarities end there.Yup and the old ambulance company plays a weak schedule in a weaker conference that gets in the watered-down playoffs via auto-bid. So to compare that to Norte Dame storied history is far fetched.

If it makes folks feel better doing it then go for it xsalutex

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[NY Crusader 2010]

Yup and the old ambulance company plays a weak schedule in a weaker conference that gets in the watered-down playoffs via auto-bid. So to compare that to Norte Dame storied history is far fetched.

If it makes folks feel better doing it then go for it xsalutex

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

You don't think Holy Cross would've been an at-large this year? Because we would've been had we not won the Patriot League.

[Bisonoline]

Just curious what others here think. I am by no means a big ND fan lol but I think HC sort of fits this description at the FCS-level.

We recruit at a national'level, are a private, Catholic school, have played inter-collegiate football for ovah a 120 years, have a long, rich history of college football etc.

I think we sort of fit that description.

You can definitely hate us like Notre Dame too lol.....Happy Holidays all!

https://i.imgur.com/mCKIW71.gif

[ysubigred]

You don't think Holy Cross would've been an at-large this year? Because we would've been had we not won the Patriot League.Hard to say. The W over Buffalo looks great after their bowl win now. No lack of respect from me for HC, you all are the old Lehigh in respect to fielding a quality team from a 1 team league.

Like I've been saying for years now.. the auto bids need to cease and the playoffs should consist of the 16-24 best teams.



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[ngineer]

What is this thread? Norte Dame is one of the most recognizable brands in CFB, and is as important to its history as any other program. The brand is amplified with famous classic movies like Rudy. Notre Dame also has 11 titles, and while not as dominant as they once were, are still a consistently successful program over the last 10 years.

The only similarity between Holy Cross and Notre Dame is that they are catholic universities, the similarities end there.

….and Norte Dame ain’t Jesuit!!😉😁

[ngineer]

You're absolutely right. Will take into account when I put together my 2023 end of season Catholic rankings next December.

Apparently Marist became a secular institution in 2003.

I just assumed all these years that Wagner was Catholic. I guess because everyone I went to HS with that was from Staten Island was both very Italian and very Catholic. I guess I thought Valpo was too because of the Crusader nickname.

Nail your List to the church door…..Valpo is affiliated with the Lutherans!!😉😁

[Sader87]

I'll say this, what non-public (playoff participating) FCS program has a bettah following, has bettah facilities, has a bettah football history/tradition etc than Holy Cross?

No one.

[Bisonoline]

I'll say this, what non-public FCS program has a bettah following, has bettah facilities, has a bettah football history/tradition etc than Holy Cross?

No one.

If you use enough qualifiers in a question you can get what ever result you are touting.

[Sader87]

If you use enough qualifiers in a question you can get what ever result you are touting.

Basically goes back to my original statement/thesis....that Holy Cross is the most supported, best non-public FCS program in the country.

Why I made the analogy to ND at the FBS-level.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

What am I reading at this point? Sadly, I feel dumber....xrotatehx

This thread may live in infamy....

Does the same logic that makes Holy Cross a better football program than Villanova also work to validate Temple basketball as historically superior to Wildcat hoops? The Owls did win the 1938 Helms Title. Bob Cousy remembers...

[Bisonoline]

What am I reading at this point? Sadly, I feel dumber....xrotatehx

This thread may live in infamy....

Does the same logic that makes Holy Cross a better football program than Villanova also work to validate Temple basketball as historically superior to Wildcats hoops? The Owls did win the 1938 Helms Title. Bob Cousy remembers...

Gotta admit its been a great troll.

[Sader87]

No troll....name a non-public FCS program that has bettah support, a more active football alumni etc. than Holy Cross has at the FCS-level?

You won't find one.

[Bisonoline]

No troll....name a non-public FCS program that has bettah support, a more active football alumni etc. than Holy Cross has at the FCS-level?

You won't find one.

https://i.imgur.com/9wf6uj4.gif

[Bill]

No troll....name a non-public FCS program that has bettah support, a more active football alumni etc. than Holy Cross has at the FCS-level?

You won't find one.

Well, the folks at Colgate can certainly make an argument there....and I know a few Princeton alumni who can probably make that same claim.

[DFW HOYA]

No troll....name a non-public FCS program that has bettah support, a more active football alumni etc. than Holy Cross has at the FCS-level?
You won't find one.

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Villanova
Lehigh
Richmond
Dartmouth (maybe)

[MIBT]

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Villanova
Lehigh
Richmond
Dartmouth (maybe)That's a pretty good list. This is only one person's perspective and completely unscientific, but when I was watching the HC-SDSU game I thought it was a great effort by a team that didn't have much playoff experience. I did not realize they had been in the playoffs the last 3 years. And this is someone who pays fairly close attention to FCS football. They blend in with all the other NE schools that make the playoffs but usually lose in the first or second round. Hardly a ringing endorsement for a comparison to the most loved/most hated school in FBS.

When you are in the middle of something it can seem like it's a bigger deal than it is. Look at college hockey fans. But outside of that bubble, it doesn't have the same value.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Sader87]

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Villanova
Lehigh
Richmond
Dartmouth (maybe)

Holy Cross has bettah overall fan support and travels much bettah than all those schools.

[Kramden]

No comparison between Villanova and Holy Cross over the past 50 years, Nova by a wide margin. I'm glad HC had a good season ahd has had a nice run the past few years, but your comparisons are a reach IMO.

[UNHWildcat18]

Holy Cross has bettah overall fan support and travels much bettah than all those schools.

over what time frame? I apologize Sader but until Chesney HC hasn't had a great fansbase or been relevant since the 80s......

[Sader87]

A scholarship Holy Cross football has been has been as good or bettah than Villanova ovah the last 50 years. HC football was in the hinterlands during the non-scholarship PL era of 1992 to about 2015. With scholarships back, HC has returned to football relevancy.

Holy Cross football has a much bettah fan following than Villanova today and it's really not close. Villanova is understangly a "hoop school" first....their football fan support isn't that great, particularly for a program that has had the success it has had at the FCS-level.

[Bill]

A scholarship Holy Cross football has been has been as good or bettah than Villanova ovah the last 50 years. HC football was in the hinterlands during the non-scholarship PL era of 1992 to about 2015. With scholarships back, HC has returned to football relevancy.

Holy Cross football has a much bettah fan following than Villanova today and it's really not close. Villanova is understangly a "hoop school" first....their football fan support isn't that great, particularly for a program that has had the success it has had at the FCS-level.

Sader - have you hit the New Year’s Rebel Yell a bit early?


If I’m following your logic, you are now comparing “scholarship Holy Cross” with Villanova. You used 2015 as the date for recent scholarships, so 50 years: 1972 - 1992, and 2015- present vs. 1972 - present for Villanova. Your parameters, not mine.




Holy Cross: 1972 -1981 :2 seasons above .500
1982 - 1992: 95 - 19 - 3


2015 - 2022: 51 - 42.
(Total - that’s 146 - 61, 6 playoff berths)




Villanova, 1972 - 2022: 305 - 212. (14 playoff berths, 1 NATIONAL title)


This comparison is ridiculous.


1982 - 1992: (and there were no 82-84 seasons) 56-24


2015 - 2022: 52 - 35


So yes, HC was a better scholarship program than Villanova for 10 years, from 1982 - 1992, keeping in mind Villanova dropped football for three of those seasons.

[Go...gate]

But Holy Cross could have been in the Big East! xthumbsupx

[UNHWildcat18]

But Holy Cross could have been in the Big East! xthumbsupx


AND DON’T YOU EVER FORGET IT!

[NY Crusader 2010]

Well, the folks at Colgate can certainly make an argument there....and I know a few Princeton alumni who can probably make that same claim.

Holy Cross definitely has a much more active fan base than both Colgate and Princeton. We travel better than any of the Ivies, especially when you account for the relative size of those schools compared to HC. This may be the one claim on this thread that 87 is right about.

To answer the question of which FCS programs have as strong or a stronger fan base and alumni support network than Holy Cross => Furman and Richmond. Villanova close, maybe a notch behind but right there.

One thing about our fan base: it's one of the oldest in FCS...let's see how well supported we are in 15 years, especially when we hit leaner times. Holy Cross isn't Alabama or North Dakota State -- we're not going to win double-digit games every year. And the Patriot League won't always be as bad as it's been the last 4-5 years.

[DFW HOYA]

Holy Cross definitely has a much more active fan base than both Colgate and Princeton. We travel better than any of the Ivies, especially when you account for the relative size of those schools compared to HC.

It's easy to travel when most games are within an hour of where your students and alumni are. Given the turnouts over the years in Washington, HC does not travel south.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh's 2011 team was right there imo as well. They finished ranked #5/#6 iirc, had the Payton runner-up, beat the CAA Champ on the road and were the first team to really deal with the Fargo Dome. Plus, not only did they lose Spadola heading into the game they also had to deal with a national media event. At that point, no college player had really been made an example of by their actions on social media. Lehigh was in that game until the mid to late 3Q thanks to an excellent defensive performance. The faked FG attempt then led to an early, patented 8-minute dagger TD drive iirc.

The only caveat is they didn't go undefeated in the regular season. Even 2004 was damn good. Lost to the eventual champ by 1 point after stopping JMU on 7 downs from inside the 5. The PL was really good from 2001-2005 imo. Lehigh, Fordham, Colgate and Lafayette provided legit in conference competition. Even Towson, Holy Cross and Bucknell were respectable. In today's FCS I think that era of PL football gets another title game rep and perhaps a championship.

[taper]

This thread is like asking who's the tallest midget. HC has a great QB currently but not much else. That showed when they collapsed in 4Q at SDSU.
2011 Lehigh was a good east coast team, but remember no PL team has EVER scored a point against NDSU. Not one point, not even a garbage time FG. The next year last place MVFC USD beat the PL champ for their only win of the season.
Until the PL shows otherwise I'll consider them trash. You want my respect? Schedule teams west of the Appalachians, and most importantly, win those games. Until then you're just another self-segregating team that can't handle real competition.

[bonarae]

Until the PL shows otherwise I'll consider them trash. You want my respect? Schedule teams west of the Appalachians, and most importantly, win those games. Until then you're just another self-segregating team that can't handle real competition.

Agree 100%.... xcoffeex

[NY Crusader 2010]

This thread is like asking who's the tallest midget. HC has a great QB currently but not much else. That showed when they collapsed in 4Q at SDSU.
2011 Lehigh was a good east coast team, but remember no PL team has EVER scored a point against NDSU. Not one point, not even a garbage time FG. The next year last place MVFC USD beat the PL champ for their only win of the season.
Until the PL shows otherwise I'll consider them trash. You want my respect? Schedule teams west of the Appalachians, and most importantly, win those games. Until then you're just another self-segregating team that can't handle real competition.

I would disagree with this description. We had a pretty complete team this year. What's allowed HC to be competitive with FBS and upper-level FCS competition the past 2 years has been our point of attack. A Patriot League team should in general get manhandled on the lines against a Valley team, especially one that's ranked #1 and according to one fellow NDSU fan "possibly the best FCS team since 2013". That did not take place. But the 4th quarter of our quarterfinal game, we were worn down like you said and the better team won.

[clenz]

I would disagree with this description. We had a pretty complete team this year. What's allowed HC to be competitive with FBS and upper-level FCS competition the past 2 years has been our point of attack. A Patriot League team should in general get manhandled on the lines against a Valley team, especially one that's ranked #1 and according to one fellow NDSU fan "possibly the best FCS team since 2013". That did not take place. But the 4th quarter of our quarterfinal game, we were worn down like you said and the better team won.
A key thing you have to remember is you had to do that for one game.

SDSU has had to do it every week this year sans Butler in the OOC and WIU in conference play.

I'm not going to take a shot and say HC is bad and wouldn't be good in the Valley. I will say, however, it takes an entirely different beast of a program to play in a conference where you see that type of game/style every week. Getting up for it for one week and then falling apart in the second half doesn't put you on par with the other team or that conference as far as being able to compete all season long. We see it all the time in FBS/FCS games. They are close for a half or three quarters and then the dept just causes it to fall apart. That doesn't mean those FCS teams can step into the MWC, B10, B12, Pac 12 and go 9-3. Over the season, having to do the same thing every single week would more than drain the depth.

It's been pointed out, and I don't know how much it's worth, but it's fairly common for the worst Valley teams to play OVC, Patriot, PFL, SLC, etc. teams that are 8+ win teams and to talk away from those games with a fairly comfortable win, or even if it's a loss it's their closest loss of the season.

Holy Cross had a good team **** season, no question. The part that makes the difference is the top to bottom quality of your team and opponent. UNI was 6-5 and not great and they averaged more yards per play and had 2 running backs with more yards than anyone not named Sluka had rushing. Defensively UNI gave up half the yards per carry that HC did, and by UNI standards the UNI defense was BAAD this year. Probably as bad as it's been in 15 years.

I think SDSU did absolutely destroy HC on the LOS. Don't let Sluka scrambling around hide the fact that outside of him HC had
48 total yards rushing on 17 carries - 2.8 YYPC - and 18 of those were 1 play. So less than 2 YPC on the other 16 carries. Meanwhile SDSU had 6.2 YPC and their RB averaged 7.7 YPC. SDSU also had 7 TFL for 42 yards to Holy Cross's 3 for 8 yards

Sluka is a great player that carried HC all year long. I don't know that Sluka carrying the team makes the program top to bottom as some HC fans seem to think based on this year.

[NY Crusader 2010]

A key thing you have to remember is you had to do that for one game.

SDSU has had to do it every week this year sans Butler in the OOC and WIU in conference play.

I'm not going to take a shot and say HC is bad and wouldn't be good in the Valley. I will say, however, it takes an entirely different beast of a program to play in a conference where you see that type of game/style every week. Getting up for it for one week and then falling apart in the second half doesn't put you on par with the other team or that conference as far as being able to compete all season long. We see it all the time in FBS/FCS games. They are close for a half or three quarters and then the dept just causes it to fall apart. That doesn't mean those FCS teams can step into the MWC, B10, B12, Pac 12 and go 9-3. Over the season, having to do the same thing every single week would more than drain the depth.

It's been pointed out, and I don't know how much it's worth, but it's fairly common for the worst Valley teams to play OVC, Patriot, PFL, SLC, etc. teams that are 8+ win teams and to talk away from those games with a fairly comfortable win, or even if it's a loss it's their closest loss of the season.

Holy Cross had a good team **** season, no question. The part that makes the difference is the top to bottom quality of your team and opponent. UNI was 6-5 and not great and they averaged more yards per play and had 2 running backs with more yards than anyone not named Sluka had rushing. Defensively UNI gave up half the yards per carry that HC did, and by UNI standards the UNI defense was BAAD this year. Probably as bad as it's been in 15 years.

I think SDSU did absolutely destroy HC on the LOS. Don't let Sluka scrambling around hide the fact that outside of him HC had
48 total yards rushing on 17 carries - 2.8 YYPC - and 18 of those were 1 play. So less than 2 YPC on the other 16 carries. Meanwhile SDSU had 6.2 YPC and their RB averaged 7.7 YPC. SDSU also had 7 TFL for 42 yards to Holy Cross's 3 for 8 yards

Sluka is a great player that carried HC all year long. I don't know that Sluka carrying the team makes the program top to bottom as some HC fans seem to think based on this year.

Overall, as usual, your post is rooted in facts and sound analysis. However, Holy Cross is by no means a one-man show. Maybe we wouldn't be a "top to bottom" great team in the Valley, but we're without a doubt a very good and very well rounded FCS team. We're by no means a rag-tag team surrounding Sluka, who by the way ran for double as many yards as any TEAM gained against SDSU this year. Holes had to be opened up for him to gain those yards. I know you probably didn't watch many, or any, of our games this year but there were teams that shut Sluka down on the ground. And we obviously won those games. The week prior to SDSU, we manhandled CAA co-champ UNH in the trenches as if we were playing Marist.

But you're right about Valley teams having to go out and do it every week while HC had the luxury of knowing which games we had to "get up" for. We beat Buffalo this year (only FCS team who beat a bowl WINNER I believe) but if we had to play a full MAC schedule, I'm not sure we'd sniff .500. I respect the level of play of the top FCS conferences like the BSC and the MVFC tremendously. Put it this way -- if Holy Cross had played 6-5 Northern Iowa this year, I'd have been elated with a 1-pt win. Home or away.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This thread is like asking who's the tallest midget. HC has a great QB currently but not much else. That showed when they collapsed in 4Q at SDSU.
2011 Lehigh was a good east coast team, but remember no PL team has EVER scored a point against NDSU. Not one point, not even a garbage time FG. The next year last place MVFC USD beat the PL champ for their only win of the season.
Until the PL shows otherwise I'll consider them trash. You want my respect? Schedule teams west of the Appalachians, and most importantly, win those games. Until then you're just another self-segregating team that can't handle real competition.

Lehigh did beat the MVFC Champ in 2010 playoffs by being more physical than UNI, won 14-7. That is why I think they could have put up a better effort against NDSU had they not had to deal with the NCAA nonsense. That game was not lost in the trenches.

Colgate had the line play too imo but their offense was extremely limited. That was always going to be a problem. Granted, I think their defense was good enough to beat/compete for 60 with most teams not named NDSU that year.

Coaching wise, Chesney>Coen>Hunt.....

[clenz]

Overall, as usual, your post is rooted in facts and sound analysis. However, Holy Cross is by no means a one-man show. Maybe we wouldn't be a "top to bottom" great team in the Valley, but we're without a doubt a very good and very well rounded FCS team. We're by no means a rag-tag team surrounding Sluka, who by the way ran for double as many yards as any TEAM gained against SDSU this year. Holes had to be opened up for him to gain those yards. I know you probably didn't watch many, or any, of our games this year but there were teams that shut Sluka down on the ground. And we obviously won those games. The week prior to SDSU, we manhandled CAA co-champ UNH in the trenches as if we were playing Marist.

But you're right about Valley teams having to go out and do it every week while HC had the luxury of knowing which games we had to "get up" for. We beat Buffalo this year (only FCS team who beat a bowl WINNER I believe) but if we had to play a full MAC schedule, I'm not sure we'd sniff .500. I respect the level of play of the top FCS conferences like the BSC and the MVFC tremendously. Put it this way -- if Holy Cross had played 6-5 Northern Iowa this year, I'd have been elated with a 1-pt win. Home or away.Massey is massey and has pretty significant flaws but for the sake of fun talking points it has it's uses

I ran 100 sim games between Holy Cross and UNI - UNI won 68 of them. Who knows, but that was interesting to see. I wouldn't expect that kind of heavy one-way swing in that given UNI is 11 and HC is 14th. Though I guess the key metrics would be the offensive and defensive strength rating being heavy in UNI's favor - 12th vs 25th in offense and 10 vs 27th in defense and then 7th in SOS VS 65TH. The total "power" ranking is 7th for UNI and 25th for HC.

Sadly UNI's new system took a couple weeks to actually gel and we lost 3 FCS games in the first 4 weeks - with 2 of those by 5 points - and the other to Sac State which was a 1 score game with 4 minutes left

I'm not trying to dimmish anything HC did this year, by any stretch. More so add some backing data and points to some of the things I've read. I think HC would have done well in the Valley. They probably finish 4-4 or 5-3 much like UNI did this year.

[Southsider]

Guys, this is not FBS. Take a chill pill. Just go out and enjoy a nice Saturday afternoon watching your team. Like so many here often say, "nobody cares"

[Leopard Loyalist]

This thread is like asking who's the tallest midget. HC has a great QB currently but not much else. That showed when they collapsed in 4Q at SDSU.
2011 Lehigh was a good east coast team, but remember no PL team has EVER scored a point against NDSU. Not one point, not even a garbage time FG. The next year last place MVFC USD beat the PL champ for their only win of the season.
Until the PL shows otherwise I'll consider them trash. You want my respect? Schedule teams west of the Appalachians, and most importantly, win those games. Until then you're just another self-segregating team that can't handle real competition.

September 3, 2011: North Dakota State 42 Lafayette 6

[caribbeanhen]

A key thing you have to remember is you had to do that for one game.

SDSU has had to do it every week this year sans Butler in the OOC and WIU in conference play.

I'm not going to take a shot and say HC is bad and wouldn't be good in the Valley. I will say, however, it takes an entirely different beast of a program to play in a conference where you see that type of game/style every week. Getting up for it for one week and then falling apart in the second half doesn't put you on par with the other team or that conference as far as being able to compete all season long. We see it all the time in FBS/FCS games. They are close for a half or three quarters and then the dept just causes it to fall apart. That doesn't mean those FCS teams can step into the MWC, B10, B12, Pac 12 and go 9-3. Over the season, having to do the same thing every single week would more than drain the depth.

It's been pointed out, and I don't know how much it's worth, but it's fairly common for the worst Valley teams to play OVC, Patriot, PFL, SLC, etc. teams that are 8+ win teams and to talk away from those games with a fairly comfortable win, or even if it's a loss it's their closest loss of the season.

Holy Cross had a good team **** season, no question. The part that makes the difference is the top to bottom quality of your team and opponent. UNI was 6-5 and not great and they averaged more yards per play and had 2 running backs with more yards than anyone not named Sluka had rushing. Defensively UNI gave up half the yards per carry that HC did, and by UNI standards the UNI defense was BAAD this year. Probably as bad as it's been in 15 years.

I think SDSU did absolutely destroy HC on the LOS. Don't let Sluka scrambling around hide the fact that outside of him HC had
48 total yards rushing on 17 carries - 2.8 YYPC - and 18 of those were 1 play. So less than 2 YPC on the other 16 carries. Meanwhile SDSU had 6.2 YPC and their RB averaged 7.7 YPC. SDSU also had 7 TFL for 42 yards to Holy Cross's 3 for 8 yards

Sluka is a great player that carried HC all year long. I don't know that Sluka carrying the team makes the program top to bottom as some HC fans seem to think based on this year.


Still waiting for McCartney to get knocked off the stage, without him, The Wings of the Valley have been grounded for over a decade dwelling in obscurity backing up the legend

South Dakota State is that someone who’s been knocking on the door...

singing Do me a favor, open the door and Let us in

[Ridge1982]

Saint Louis is where the forward pass was created, were the first to be ranked number one in the AP Poll, are the oldest institution west of the Mississippi (1818), and also are the Yankees of men’s soccer.

[MR. CHICKEN]

"St. Louis is where the forward pass was created"........(REPLY WITH QUOTE NOW NOT WORKING FOR ME)............FIRST ONE.....WAS INCOMPLETE...........BRAWK!

[SDFS]

Massey is massey and has pretty significant flaws but for the sake of fun talking points it has it's uses

I ran 100 sim games between Holy Cross and UNI - UNI won 68 of them. Who knows, but that was interesting to see. I wouldn't expect that kind of heavy one-way swing in that given UNI is 11 and HC is 14th. Though I guess the key metrics would be the offensive and defensive strength rating being heavy in UNI's favor - 12th vs 25th in offense and 10 vs 27th in defense and then 7th in SOS VS 65TH. The total "power" ranking is 7th for UNI and 25th for HC.

Sadly UNI's new system took a couple weeks to actually gel and we lost 3 FCS games in the first 4 weeks - with 2 of those by 5 points - and the other to Sac State which was a 1 score game with 4 minutes left

I'm not trying to dimmish anything HC did this year, by any stretch. More so add some backing data and points to some of the things I've read. I think HC would have done well in the Valley. They probably finish 4-4 or 5-3 much like UNI did this year.

You forgot to add - on the bubble and more than likely out of the playoffs. Only three teams in MVFC this year and the 3rd Valley team in was one of the last ones in per comments from the committee.

[DFW HOYA]

"Saint Louis is where the forward pass was created, were the first to be ranked number one in the AP Poll, are the oldest institution west of the Mississippi (1818), and also are the Yankees of men’s soccer."

The first number one in the original 1936 AP poll was Minnesota.
St. Louis' last NCAA soccer title was 1973.