Dayton to the PL?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I figured I'd start this thread before DF did.

My question is, would Dayton leave the Atlantic 10 in all sports to join the Patriot League along with another team (Fordham in all sports)?

Of course, the first question would be: Could Dayton live up to the Patriot League's impeccable academic requirements?

The second would be: Would they be willing to dole out dreaded athletic aid to their football players?

[DetroitFlyer]

Magic Eight Ball Says....

Highly unlikely!

The Patriot League MIGHT make some sense for Dayton football, but I just do not see ANYTHING that would motivate Dayton to move from the A10 to the PL for all sports.

As for academic profile: ( Football Schools Only ):

Dayton: ( 79% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 9,045 applied; 7,122 admitted; 1,738 enrolled
Average high school GPA: 3.48
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 83%
SAT math scores over 500 88%
ACT scores over 18 100%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 37%
SAT math scores over 600 47%
ACT scores over 24 69%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 6%
SAT math scores over 700 10%
ACT scores over 30 15%

Fordham: ( 47% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 18,161 applied; 8,449 admitted; 1,722 enrolled
Average high school GPA: 3.7
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 91%
SAT math scores over 500 92%
SAT writing scores over 500 87%
ACT scores over 18 99%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 57%
SAT math scores over 600 54%
SAT writing scores over 600 47%
ACT scores over 24 76%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 11%
SAT math scores over 700 8%
SAT writing scores over 700 8%
ACT scores over 30 12%

Lafayette: ( 37% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 5,875 applied; 2,169 admitted; 630 enrolled
Average high school GPA: 3.78
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 97%
SAT math scores over 500 99%
ACT scores over 18 100%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 66%
SAT math scores over 600 80%
ACT scores over 24 88%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 12%
SAT math scores over 700 24%
ACT scores over 30 20%

Holy Cross: ( 34% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 6,706 applied; 2,313 admitted; 751 enrolled
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 98%
SAT math scores over 500 97%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 75%
SAT math scores over 600 77%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 17%
SAT math scores over 700 20%




Colgate: ( 28% admitted )


Freshman
Admission: 7,873 applied; 2,217 admitted; 744 enrolled
Average high school GPA: 3.6
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 97%
SAT math scores over 500 98%
ACT scores over 18 100%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 86%
SAT math scores over 600 88%
ACT scores over 24 94%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 36%
SAT math scores over 700 41%
ACT scores over 30 61%

Lehigh: ( 39% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 10,689 applied; 4,182 admitted; 1,217 enrolled
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 97%
SAT math scores over 500 99%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 70%
SAT math scores over 600 88%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 13%
SAT math scores over 700 39%

Georgetown: ( 22% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 15,070 applied; 3,367 admitted; 1,588 enrolled
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 99%
SAT math scores over 500 99%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 87%
SAT math scores over 600 91%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 51%
SAT math scores over 700 52%

Bucknell: ( 33% admitted )

Freshman
Admission: 9,021 applied; 2,990 admitted; 923 enrolled
Test Scores:
SAT critical reading scores over 500 98%
SAT math scores over 500 99%
ACT scores over 18 99%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 76%
SAT math scores over 600 89%
ACT scores over 24 91%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 17%
SAT math scores over 700 36%
ACT scores over 30 39%

Dayton is not even close....

Still, at one time the PL admitted Towson for football, and Towson's profile is similar to Dayton's profile.

Dayton is a founding member of the PFL. The only "draw" I could see for football to move from the PFL to the PL would be the AQ. If the playoffs are expanded to 24 someday, and the PFL gets off its collective tushy and applies for an AQ, even that might vanish.

I would like to see more games against the PL for Dayton. Georgetown seems like an ideal match-up.... Oddly enough, however, not many PL teams want to spend the money to travel to Dayton.... Dayton does not play "money" games so unless a PL team is open to some kind of home/home deal, the games will not happen.

Frankly, I would love to see many more games between the Ivy, PL and PFL. The PFL teams are not afraid to travel, but just try getting Princeton to travel to Des Moine, IA for a game with Drake....

[Fordham]

odd phrasing of the options since (unfortunately imo) there is no way in he*l that Fordham would "accept" if "chosen" by the PL for all sports.

[aceinthehole]

DF - a very honest and valid assessment.

I agree and can’t see any reason for Dayton or Fordham to leave the A-10 for basketball. I also think Dayton would be a good fit (competitively, not academically) in the PL for football only. I would not hold out too much hope for the PFL asking for an AQ, your best bet may be sometime in the future with the PL or NEC.

As for non-conference schedule, why don’t you take “buy” games? I don’t like a schedule full of them, but as you can see teams like Delaware of Georgia Southern just aren’t traveling to a NEC/PFL school. If you want to challenge your team and play a top-25 team, you are going to have to do it on the road (and get paid for it). NEC teams have been doing its for years now.

Ivy teams get just 3 non-conference games, and I’d guess travel based on alumni more than any other factor. Yale is will to go to USD because it helps for recruits/alumni. I just don’t think Dayton has that draw for a Princeton or Harvard to leave home. You should be able to get a home/home deals with some PL teams.

IMO - Dayton has to do what’s best for itself and not the PFL. That’s what Duquesne did by abandoning the MAAC and they will be better for it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

odd phrasing of the options since (unfortunately imo) there is no way in he*l that Fordham would "accept" if "chosen" by the PL for all sports.

I thought that at one time, but lately I'm not so sure anymore due to 1) the Atlantic 10 losing football to the CAA and 2) the general decline, across the board, of the Atlantic 10 in hoops. I am openly speculating that the Patriot League may be looking at one or more A-10 conference members for potential PL membership. Furthermore, hoops is no longer an issue since hoops allows scholarships.

It's a theory that fits the facts - and explains a lot of the interest in pursuing a Richmond, but not as an affiliate - as an all-sports member. Might Fordham jump to the PL if one or more A-10 schools jump in all sports?

[Go...gate]

No way Dayton gives up a nationally prominent BB program to join the PL as a Full Member. Associate Member for football, that is a different story.

[Franks Tanks]

No way Dayton gives up a nationally prominent BB program to join the PL as a Full Member. Associate Member for football, that is a different story.

Im not so sure there B-Ball team is all so prominent, when was the last time they won something? I would put them on par with a LaSalle or a St. Bonny basketball wise--they catch lightning in a bottle once in a while and make a run, but mostly they are supremely mediocre.

[Fordham]

I thought that at one time, but lately I'm not so sure anymore due to 1) the Atlantic 10 losing football to the CAA and 2) the general decline, across the board, of the Atlantic 10 in hoops. I am openly speculating that the Patriot League may be looking at one or more A-10 conference members for potential PL membership. Furthermore, hoops is no longer an issue since hoops allows scholarships.
There might have been a chance imo if not for our prior experience with the PL. With hoops as our marquee sport, the move to non-scholly basketball absolutely crushed the program and produced the uproar that sparked our move to the A10. That scenario, which as I understand it soften the league's anti-scholarship stance enough that when HC said they needed hoops in schollies they got 'em, is what has really damaged the PL brand in many Fordham fans' eyes. Again, it's unfortunate imo, but there's no denying it.


It's a theory that fits the facts - and explains a lot of the interest in pursuing a Richmond, but not as an affiliate - as an all-sports member. Might Fordham jump to the PL if one or more A-10 schools jump in all sports? It would certainly help if a school like Richmond were to make the leap, LFN.

Again, things change but imo it would take a tremendous amount of change for that to even be considered, at least seriously, at Fordham.

[ngineer]

The CAA (formerly A-10) schools thinking of switching would only do so if the PL goes scholarship in football. Then, you might see interest from Richmond or W&M or Villanova (though they'd never join in BBall). As noted before, I don't see Dayton or Duquesne joining as all-sport members, though associate membership in football is possible, though not highly likely given the experience with Towson, who didn't fit the profile.

[lizrdgizrd]

I would like to see more games against the PL for Dayton. Georgetown seems like an ideal match-up.... Oddly enough, however, not many PL teams want to spend the money to travel to Dayton.... Dayton does not play "money" games so unless a PL team is open to some kind of home/home deal, the games will not happen.
To get those games against the PL Dayton may have to change their tune about "money" games.

[DetroitFlyer]

Just a side note on academic profiles.... Percent admitted is a number that "elite" schools like to use to show how selective they are with their student bodies.... I have recently read where the Ivy League actually encourages students to apply, knowing full well that they will not be accepted, simply to drive the percent admitted number down....

One of the things that seems to be missing from most if not all rankings, is some way to measure the success of a schools graduates.... I suppose defining success is a challenge to start with, but it should at least be a component. The closest thing I have found to this item is alumni contributions. I suppose you can extrapolate that "successful" alumni are going to contribute more than unsuccessful alumni.... Still, it seems like kind of a stretch.

I mean, heck, Dayton produced the absolute best football message board poster of possibly all time, ( DetroitFlyer ).:D :D :D :D

Surely, US News & World Reports should take that into account for our next round of ratings.... LOL!!!!!

[Spoke]

Just a side note on academic profiles.... Percent admitted is a number that "elite" schools like to use to show how selective they are with their student bodies.... I have recently read where the Ivy League actually encourages students to apply, knowing full well that they will not be accepted, simply to drive the percent admitted number down....

One of the things that seems to be missing from most if not all rankings, is some way to measure the success of a schools graduates.... I suppose defining success is a challenge to start with, but it should at least be a component. The closest thing I have found to this item is alumni contributions. I suppose you can extrapolate that "successful" alumni are going to contribute more than unsuccessful alumni.... Still, it seems like kind of a stretch.

I mean, heck, Dayton produced the absolute best football message board poster of possibly all time, ( DetroitFlyer ).:D :D :D :D

Surely, US News & World Reports should take that into account for our next round of ratings.... LOL!!!!!

That's fine, Holy Cross has a 50%+ alumni giving rate xthumbsupx

[Model Citizen]

Patriot League football is the furthest from Dayton's mind. Where would they come up with the money for 50 scholarships? If any PFL school bolts for the Patriot, it would be Davidson. Alas, that didn't work well the first time.

It's more likely that Georgetown joins the PFL. xsmiley_wix

[Model Citizen]

If GU doesn't get some Ws, what is the chance they'll join St. Mary's football conference?

[Spoke]

Patriot League football is the furthest from Dayton's mind. Where would they come up with the money for 50 scholarships? If any PFL school bolts for the Patriot, it would be Davidson. Alas, that didn't work well the first time.

It's more likely that Georgetown joins the PFL. xsmiley_wix

Patriot League doesn't have football scholarships.

[Model Citizen]

Aren't you a brain washed little minion.

[Spoke]

With a Holy Cross education!

[JoltinJoe]

From what I've been told, Fordham has what amounts to standing invitation to return the PL in all sports. I've also been told Fordham would probably return all sports but basketball to the PL, but it cannot do that under NCAA regulations.

But the six of you who think the PL wouldn't "take" Fordham in all sports are misinformed. It would happen tomorrow if Fordham wanted it.

[DetroitFlyer]

According to the NCAA, whatever the PL does is considered "scholarship equivalents". That is what makes the "scholarship" arguments so funny to a PL outsider.... The PL already spends the money.... It is purely Ivy like stubbornness that prevents true, athletic scholarships.

In the PFL, aid provided to students that happen to play football is not counted as "scholarship equivalents" as defined by the NCAA.

So discounting Georgetown for the moment, the NCAA says the following:

PL - Approx. 50-55 scholarship equivalents depending on the school.

PFL - ZERO scholarship equivalents at all schools!

[carney2]

Hey, LFN, whatever in the world possessed you to begin this idiotic thread? Why Dayton? Why not Furman, or Northeastern, or Northwestern, or... They all make about as much sense, and are at about the same point in this decision process as Dayton. This is the kind of mindless lunacy that occupies this board in April or May. It's November, for God's sake.

As for the "vote," where is the choice that says "Stupid question. I don't give a rat's rear end?"

[TheValleyRaider]

From what I've been told, Fordham has what amounts to standing invitation to return the PL in all sports. I've also been told Fordham would probably return all sports but basketball to the PL, but it cannot do that under NCAA regulations.

But the six of you who think the PL wouldn't "take" Fordham in all sports are misinformed. It would happen tomorrow if Fordham wanted it.

You'd better believe it! xnodx

[Go...gate]

From what I've been told, Fordham has what amounts to standing invitation to return the PL in all sports. I've also been told Fordham would probably return all sports but basketball to the PL, but it cannot do that under NCAA regulations.

But the six of you who think the PL wouldn't "take" Fordham in all sports are misinformed. It would happen tomorrow if Fordham wanted it.

What Jolter has been told is correct. Femovich (among many others) would love to have Fordham back - it would save the whole PL a lot of heartache.

[Model Citizen]

Seriously, Georgetown moved into the mansion, and now they're house poor.

If the Hoyas can't afford the equivalencies that HC and Fordham offer...and if the AI is holding them back...isn't it time for them to reassess their situation? I know GU would lose face by withdrawing from the Patriot, but how many years have the Hoyas been in the league with no winning season?

DFW?

[Fordham]

i'm not going to look it up but I think their futility record is right around where ours was when we joined the league. They may even have a little ways to go before they get to our lousy start in PL play. It's for that reason that most Fordham fans believe that G-town can get there since it's viewed through our own experience.

G-town has unique issues to deal with, though, so DFW can comment on whether or not they seem to be close to turning any corners. My guess is 'no' based on the pessimism that he's developed (or has been thrust upon him).

[DetroitFlyer]

Fordham in the PL



Wow, I did not realize that Fordham struggled so badly. It looks like Fordham joined the PL in 1990.

1990: 1-9, win over Brown
1991: 2-8, wins over Columbia, Harvard
1992: 1-9, win over Bucknell, ( First PL win )
1993: 1-10, win over Colgate
1994: 0-11
1995: 4-6-1, wins over Marist, Harvard, Colgate, Holy Cross, tied Richmond
1996: 2-8, wins over Georgetown and Holy Cross
1997: 5-6, wins over Lafayette, Lehigh, Towson, Georgetown, Holy Cross
1998: 4-7, wins over Bucknell, Princeton, Holy Cross, Georgetown
1999: 0-11
2000: 3-8, wins over Fairfield, Georgetown, Lafayette
2001: 7-4
2002: 10-3, PL Co-Champions, won first round playoff game against Northeastern, lost in the second round to Villanova!!xeekx
2003: 9-3
2004: 5-6
2005: 2-9
2006: 3-8

So, Fordham's life in the PL has not been all peaches and cream to say the least. Makes this season even more special. Starting to feel like 2002 all over again Rams fans? Maybe this time, the "Co" will be removed from the Champion title!!!!!

[Go...gate]

Fordham in the PL



Wow, I did not realize that Fordham struggled so badly. It looks like Fordham joined the PL in 1990.

1990: 1-9, win over Brown
1991: 2-8, wins over Columbia, Harvard
1992: 1-9, win over Bucknell, ( First PL win )
1993: 1-10, win over Colgate
1994: 0-11
1995: 4-6-1, wins over Marist, Harvard, Colgate, Holy Cross, tied Richmond
1996: 2-8, wins over Georgetown and Holy Cross
1997: 5-6, wins over Lafayette, Lehigh, Towson, Georgetown, Holy Cross
1998: 4-7, wins over Bucknell, Princeton, Holy Cross, Georgetown
1999: 0-11
2000: 3-8, wins over Fairfield, Georgetown, Lafayette
2001: 7-4
2002: 10-3, PL Co-Champions, won first round playoff game against Northeastern, lost in the second round to Villanova!!xeekx
2003: 9-3
2004: 5-6
2005: 2-9
2006: 3-8

So, Fordham's life in the PL has not been all peaches and cream to say the least. Makes this season even more special. Starting to feel like 2002 all over again Rams fans? Maybe this time, the "Co" will be removed from the Champion title!!!!!


Fordham joined the PL football league in 1989 (2-6 that year against an abbreviated schedule). They were Co-Champions of the PL in '02 with Colgate, but beat us head-to-head in a great game in NYC.

This is why Georgetown should not get down on themselves, either. It takes time when you upgrade from D-III, as Fordham did, or FCS Non-Scholarship, as Georgetown is doing (and Duquesne, Marist, Dayton and others may or will do in the future)

[Model Citizen]

It takes time when you upgrade from ... FCS Non-Scholarship... as Dayton and others may or will do in the future

Whatever. How long will it take Fordham to upgrade to Dayton's level?

[crusader11]

Are you being serious Model Citizen?

[Go...gate]

Whatever. How long will it take Fordham to upgrade to Dayton's level?

Dayton has beaten Fordham ONCE. May I suggest we may be a tad early to concede that Dayton has a better or stronger program.

[DetroitFlyer]

All time, Dayton is something like 3-0 against Fordham. We played twice in maybe 1978 and 1979 and won both times if my memory serves me right.

Next year's game in Dayton will be interesting. Fordham will bring a more experienced team, while Dayton will have a bunch of new faces, not the least of which will be a new QB.

I think that this year's Dayton team could take anyone in the PL. We'll see next year if we can maintain the same level of play....

[Go...gate]

All time, Dayton is something like 3-0 against Fordham. We played twice in maybe 1978 and 1979 and won both times if my memory serves me right.

Next year's game in Dayton will be interesting. Fordham will bring a more experienced team, while Dayton will have a bunch of new faces, not the least of which will be a new QB.

I think that this year's Dayton team could take anyone in the PL. We'll see next year if we can maintain the same level of play....

I'm not counting D-III play and should have clarified. My point remains the same, however. I'll add that if you have to play 11-12 games against teams of superior depth (in and out of conference) each week, the deficiencies of transitional programs become very obvious.

I have nothing against Dayton whatsoever; as you know, I have suggested them as a possible FB member for the PL from time to time. But no way would any PFL team, IMO, walk into the PL and dominate it.

[flyenhigh]

Patriot League football is the furthest from Dayton's mind. Where would they come up with the money for 50 scholarships? If any PFL school bolts for the Patriot, it would be Davidson. Alas, that didn't work well the first time.

It's more likely that Georgetown joins the PFL. xsmiley_wix


I would love to have Dayton join the PL for football bc that would mean us going to the playoffsxsmiley_wix

[flyenhigh]

Hey, LFN, whatever in the world possessed you to begin this idiotic thread? Why Dayton? Why not Furman, or Northeastern, or Northwestern, or... They all make about as much sense, and are at about the same point in this decision process as Dayton. This is the kind of mindless lunacy that occupies this board in April or May. It's November, for God's sake.

As for the "vote," where is the choice that says "Stupid question. I don't give a rat's rear end?"


Your so smart did you go to Harvard? Give up your hatred toward Dayton. Good God.

[ngineer]

I'm not counting D-III play and should have clarified. My point remains the same, however. I'll add that if you have to play 11-12 games against teams of superior depth (in and out of conference) each week, the deficiencies of transitional programs become very obvious.
I have nothing against Dayton whatsoever; as you know, I have suggested them as a possible FB member for the PL from time to time. But no way would any PFL team, IMO, walk into the PL and dominate it.

We have seen the same argument with regard to PL power teams being compared the CAA teams..We make forays into the CAA and win every so often, but the question is could we survive week in/week out without upgrading to 63 scholarships? On a regular basis doubtful. The primary difference being superior depth. Hence, the reason over recent memory Lehigh came up a little short against Delaware, Villanova and JMU (though we beat VU in 2006). That's why Colgate's run of the gauntlet in 2003 was so neat. But by the time they reached Delaware, the superior depth of Delaware was evident--especially since the Hens were so talented. Being able to substitute without noticeable dropoff in skill is the key in keeping people fresh in the fourth quarter (as well as good strength and conditioning, which I think PL schools have improved in over the years, but are still behind in comparison to the CAA and SoCon conferences.)

[LeopardFan04]

Your so smart did you go to Harvard? Give up your hatred toward Dayton. Good God.



I don't think it's hatred. I agree that right now I don't think Dayton to the PL is a realistic move. Unless there is some great change in the way the league presidents/schools view things, the numbers that DF posted show that it's not going to happen anytime soon.

[colgate13]

Fordham's not coming back unless hoops got MUCH better - across the board. If CU and LC start playing hoops at the level that HC, BU and at times American/Lehigh have, we might have something to talk about. Until then, the majority of the Fordham faithful have very little love for the PL.

Dayton? We will have to get desperate to invite them for football. There is absolutely no hate/disrespect meant there. The reality is we tried a Towson with a similar academic profile and it didn't work. Then, there would be issues of having another Georgetown in terms of significantly less football spending with basketball being the marquee sport. Wins/losses against PL teams aside, that is a big hurdle that causes tension in the league.

IMO the PL is biding time until football scholarships can open up the potential list of members, because until then, there just aren't any great fits left out there.

[LUHawker]

IMO the PL is biding time until football scholarships can open up the potential list of members, because until then, there just aren't any great fits left out there.

I agree with this point of view, and, in fact, have been advocating such a posture. LFN and I have gone head to head on this many a time. Still, even with scholarships there may not be great fits out there. Too bad Boston University dropped football, because to me, they would be a near perfect fit.

In a perfect world, Fordham would re-join in all sports and the PL would add Richmond as well. That would be a great conference.

[DetroitFlyer]

PFL Depth.... There is certainly some validity to the depth question. I will say this, however, this year's Dayton team has more depth than I can ever remember. On the offensive line, we are small by Division I standards. The spread offense has helped to counter that a bit, but having some depth has helped as well.... Being able to rotate in fresh players had been huge this year. Our defensive line is not really small, but being able to rotate in fresh players has greatly contributed to our sack total and tackles for loss! We are essentially as good in the fourth quarter as we are in the first most of the time, because we have the ability to rotate players in when needed.

This is the first year in a while that I have not heard Mike Kelly really talking much about depth concerns.

We are a bit thin at some other positions, but overall, our depth has improved.

I will also say this, the Dayton team this year would rule the PL! I have little doubt that we would be sitting right where Fordham is today if we played in the PL this year. Part of that is having a very experienced, senior laden team. The failures that this group lived through last season allowed them to improve immensely for 2007.

Now, if we talk about year in and year out, Dayton is probably not going to rule the PL. But neither has Fordham. I have no doubt that if Dayton played in the PL, we would probably be middle of the pack with an occasional up year when things came together like they have in 2007. What I have seen in the PFL, is that virtually every season there is a "Dayton". Recently it has been San Diego. Drake has had "up" years. Morehead State is capable as well. Davidson might even get there under Tripp Merritt. Even Valpo and Butler have had great seasons in the past....

In spite of what the powers that be in the PFL think, I am certain that year in and year out, whatever team emerges as the PFL champion could compete very well in the FCS playoffs. I'm not saying that we would win the championship, but I do think our champion could make some noise, win a first round game and maybe even more some years....

Do not discount Dayton because we are a "non-scholarship" program. We have the best coach in FCS BAR NONE! We attract very talented and intelligent players. Combine the two, and you begin to understand the success that the Mike Kelly era has brought to Dayton. Among that long string of success, every once in a while a truly special team is going to come along.... 2007 may be one of those teams. Check back with me in two weeks to be sure....

GO DAYTON FLYERS!!!!

Oh yeah, Go Fordham, beat Holy Cross!!!!!xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

Then, there would be issues of having another Georgetown in terms of significantly less football spending with basketball being the marquee sport. Wins/losses against PL teams aside, that is a big hurdle that causes tension in the league.

Tension isn't the right word...more like indifference. Does the PL leadership really give this much thought?

The phrase "significantly less football spending" is probably a misnomer at this point. Compared to Fordham, yes. Compared to Bucknell, less so.

[lizrdgizrd]

In spite of what the powers that be in the PFL think, I am certain that year in and year out, whatever team emerges as the PFL champion could compete very well in the FCS playoffs. I'm not saying that we would win the championship, but I do think our champion could make some noise, win a first round game and maybe even more some years....
If you think Dayton would only "make some noise" in the playoffs then why bother? The point of getting into the playoffs is to win them. If you don't think Dayton can do that then why bother trying to get there?

[Franks Tanks]

PFL Depth.... There is certainly some validity to the depth question. I will say this, however, this year's Dayton team has more depth than I can ever remember. On the offensive line, we are small by Division I standards. The spread offense has helped to counter that a bit, but having some depth has helped as well.... Being able to rotate in fresh players had been huge this year. Our defensive line is not really small, but being able to rotate in fresh players has greatly contributed to our sack total and tackles for loss! We are essentially as good in the fourth quarter as we are in the first most of the time, because we have the ability to rotate players in when needed.

This is the first year in a while that I have not heard Mike Kelly really talking much about depth concerns.

We are a bit thin at some other positions, but overall, our depth has improved.

I will also say this, the Dayton team this year would rule the PL! I have little doubt that we would be sitting right where Fordham is today if we played in the PL this year. Part of that is having a very experienced, senior laden team. The failures that this group lived through last season allowed them to improve immensely for 2007.

Now, if we talk about year in and year out, Dayton is probably not going to rule the PL. But neither has Fordham. I have no doubt that if Dayton played in the PL, we would probably be middle of the pack with an occasional up year when things came together like they have in 2007. What I have seen in the PFL, is that virtually every season there is a "Dayton". Recently it has been San Diego. Drake has had "up" years. Morehead State is capable as well. Davidson might even get there under Tripp Merritt. Even Valpo and Butler have had great seasons in the past....

In spite of what the powers that be in the PFL think, I am certain that year in and year out, whatever team emerges as the PFL champion could compete very well in the FCS playoffs. I'm not saying that we would win the championship, but I do think our champion could make some noise, win a first round game and maybe even more some years....

Do not discount Dayton because we are a "non-scholarship" program. We have the best coach in FCS BAR NONE! We attract very talented and intelligent players. Combine the two, and you begin to understand the success that the Mike Kelly era has brought to Dayton. Among that long string of success, every once in a while a truly special team is going to come along.... 2007 may be one of those teams. Check back with me in two weeks to be sure....

GO DAYTON FLYERS!!!!

Oh yeah, Go Fordham, beat Holy Cross!!!!!xthumbsupx


That is laughable, there is no evidence that you would "rule" the PL this year. I still think Holy Cross will blow Fordhams doors off and make you look foolish, but if this doesnt happen I will eat a whole big heaping of crow and you can call me an idiot all you want. But I think its the Cross by 3 TD's, as they are clearly the class of the PL this year. Also the Fordham team you played at the beginning of the season is not the same Fordham team you see now, they are young and gelled a whole lot since the Dayton game. Did Dayton improve greatly as well since then? Perhaps not as you said they are experiended and senior laden, and thereore not as capale as making such large leaps.

[DetroitFlyer]

Beginning of the season? Fordham was the fourth game in for both teams.... More like the middle of the season. Has Fordham improved since the Dayton game? Probably a bit. Has Dayton improved? Well, we lost to Morehead State the week following Fordham, but we defeated San Diego last week, so we have probably improved a bit as well.

If Holy Cross hammers Fordham, then worst case, Dayton would rule the PL except for Holy Cross.

Interestingly enough, some of the playoff bracket predictions I have seen have Fordham with the AQ, and HC being considered as an at large.... This interest me because even now, in what some have called a "down year" for the PL, the second place team is still in the discussion for a playoff bid. I do not think it will happen, but at least there is some consideration. In the PFL, a league that has never been invited to the playoffs in 15 years of existance, our first place team, ( Dayton ), is not even in anybody's discussion, except for the discussions I start....:D

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fordham's not coming back unless hoops got MUCH better - across the board. If CU and LC start playing hoops at the level that HC, BU and at times American/Lehigh have, we might have something to talk about. Until then, the majority of the Fordham faithful have very little love for the PL.

Then, there would be issues of having another Georgetown in terms of significantly less football spending with basketball being the marquee sport. Wins/losses against PL teams aside, that is a big hurdle that causes tension in the league.

IMO the PL is biding time until football scholarships can open up the potential list of members, because until then, there just aren't any great fits left out there.


I agree with this point of view, and, in fact, have been advocating such a posture. LFN and I have gone head to head on this many a time. Still, even with scholarships there may not be great fits out there. Too bad Boston University dropped football, because to me, they would be a near perfect fit.

In a perfect world, Fordham would re-join in all sports and the PL would add Richmond as well. That would be a great conference.


Tension isn't the right word...more like indifference. Does the PL leadership really give this much thought?

The phrase "siginficantly" is probably a misnomer. Compared to Fordham, yes. Compared to Bucknell, less so.

All interesting stuff. I admit that before I thought that there was no shot at prying away an Atlantic 10 team in all sports, but interestingly, I think the landscape has changed significantly. The A-10 really isn't the same league it was when Temple was gunning for the Final Four every year, and the CAA seems to be taking over the space where the A-10 used to be, literally (in football) and figuratively (in hoops).

Having said that, I get the impression that big basketball dreams would drive any expansion plans, NOT football. If football gets some fringe benefit, that would only be a bonus. This is why I feel Fordham rejoining the league in all sports would be seen as such a coup, even though it would have zero net effect in football.

Movement among hoops leagues might be a good thing for a Fordham or LaSalle, who could compete for a league championship and an autobid the first year they're in the league, whereas if they stay in the A-10 they could continue to struggle. With scholarships in hoops, and athletes that are up to academic standards, why not? Fordham for sure would have no problem with that.

Dayton is another case of a team that could be interested in the Patriot League in hoops. Why not? What is the A-10 giving them? Certainly no football. Name recognition? Runs to the Final Four? Not really.

[UAalum72]

Why would a new member not get an autobid in football, as long as it had completed a Division I transition? Is that a league rule?

[RAMS83]

Fordham would not go back to the PL for all sports. FU wants basketball to be the premier sport and has made strides in having a good program. At this point the A-10 gets more respect and better exposure. FU was 18-12 last year and should be even better this year. Coach Derek Whittenberg has also landed a much heralded HS senior PG (jio Fontan) for the '08 season. Fordham enjoys playing in the PL in football and likes to be affliated with good academic schools in that league. I also believe the admin likes the general proximity of the schools in this conference.

We are however dying for the PL to go full scholly in ftbl. I dont know how accurate it is-- but the grid club @ FU is under the impression Lehigh-Bucknell-GTown and us are for "scholly ftbl." Lafayette is against it and Colgate is on the fence.This way year in and out we are on the same level as the CAA as far as recruting ( I realize the CAA is better and more talented top to bottom). However, with scholly's every few years Fordham can have a shot at the PL title and hopefully make a run in the 1aa playoffs.

[Franks Tanks]

Fordham would not go back to the PL for all sports. FU wants basketball to be the premier sport and has made strides in having a good program. At this point the A-10 gets more respect and better exposure. FU was 18-12 last year and should be even better this year. Coach Derek Whittenberg has also landed a much heralded HS senior PG (jio Fontan) for the '08 season. Fordham enjoys playing in the PL in football and likes to be affliated with good academic schools in that league. I also believe the admin likes the general proximity of the schools in this conference.

We are however dying for the PL to go full scholly in ftbl. I dont know how accurate it is-- but the grid club @ FU is under the impression Lehigh-Bucknell-GTown and us are for "scholly ftbl." Lafayette is against it and Colgate is on the fence.This way year in and out we are on the same level as the CAA as far as recruting ( I realize the CAA is better and more talented top to bottom). However, with scholly's every few years Fordham can have a shot at the PL title and hopefully make a run in the 1aa playoffs.


This information is opposed to what everyone has heard on this issue up to this point. If anything Lafayette is leading the scholly charge along with Fordham, Colgate, and Lehigh I undertsand. Lafayette just sunk 30 million into the football facility and are the ones craving greater success the most after the taste we got the last 3 years. Our president seems to be for FB scholly's as he understand it can attract better athletes and students, which is HUGE. IF anything the rumor has been the "basketball schools' like Holy Cross, Bucknell, and G-twon have been opposing chnage.

[UAalum72]

Would the affiliates get a vote?

[Go...gate]

Tension isn't the right word...more like indifference. Does the PL leadership really give this much thought?

The phrase "significantly less football spending" is probably a misnomer at this point. Compared to Fordham, yes. Compared to Bucknell, less so.

What is Bucknell spending? Is it closer to 2 million?

[bostonspider]

The A-10 really isn't the same league it was when Temple was gunning for the Final Four every year, and the CAA seems to be taking over the space where the A-10 used to be, literally (in football) and figuratively (in hoops).

Dayton is another case of a team that could be interested in the Patriot League in hoops. Why not? What is the A-10 giving them? Certainly no football. Name recognition? Runs to the Final Four? Not really.

I think you a bit off on this one, The A10 has had two teams in the Big Dance the last two years, and 4 teams in 2004, with two making it to the Elite 8. The Conference is still leaps and bounds stronger than the PL in basketball. And in general it is still stonger than the CAA as well. As well, I have to say that most A10 fans couldn't have cared less that league sponsored a football league. While as a UR fan, I wish the league had stayed the A10, objectively, I can see that it should be the CAA, with 6 member schools already in the all sport CAA. It is interesting that of the CAA schools that are making the most noise this year in football, more than half are associate members, UNH, UMass, UR, VU vs. HU, JMU and UD.

[colorless raider]

Fordham would not go back to the PL for all sports. FU wants basketball to be the premier sport and has made strides in having a good program. At this point the A-10 gets more respect and better exposure. FU was 18-12 last year and should be even better this year. Coach Derek Whittenberg has also landed a much heralded HS senior PG (jio Fontan) for the '08 season. Fordham enjoys playing in the PL in football and likes to be affliated with good academic schools in that league. I also believe the admin likes the general proximity of the schools in this conference.

We are however dying for the PL to go full scholly in ftbl. I dont know how accurate it is-- but the grid club @ FU is under the impression Lehigh-Bucknell-GTown and us are for "scholly ftbl." Lafayette is against it and Colgate is on the fence.This way year in and out we are on the same level as the CAA as far as recruting ( I realize the CAA is better and more talented top to bottom). However, with scholly's every few years Fordham can have a shot at the PL title and hopefully make a run in the 1aa playoffs.

Colgate is NOT on the fence, they are 100% for it. I don't think Bucknell or HC or G'town are for it however.

[flyenhigh]

That is laughable, there is no evidence that you would "rule" the PL this year. I still think Holy Cross will blow Fordhams doors off and make you look foolish, but if this doesnt happen I will eat a whole big heaping of crow and you can call me an idiot all you want. But I think its the Cross by 3 TD's, as they are clearly the class of the PL this year. Also the Fordham team you played at the beginning of the season is not the same Fordham team you see now, they are young and gelled a whole lot since the Dayton game. Did Dayton improve greatly as well since then? Perhaps not as you said they are experiended and senior laden, and thereore not as capale as making such large leaps.

What is laughable is you claiming the infamous "they are a way better team now" that saying is for losers. Dayton won get over it. It is funny you don't think Dayton is a better team today than they were in the beginning of the season. WHAT IS THE DEAL OMG.

[Franks Tanks]

What is laughable is you claiming the infamous "they are a way better team now" that saying is for losers. Dayton won get over it. It is funny you don't think Dayton is a better team today than they were in the beginning of the season. WHAT IS THE DEAL OMG.

Your boy Detroit Flyer said himself that Dayton is a very senior laden team while Fordham is pretty young. A young team has more potential and therefore can improve more during a season that an experienced team can. Thats all

[flyenhigh]

If you think Dayton would only "make some noise" in the playoffs then why bother? The point of getting into the playoffs is to win them. If you don't think Dayton can do that then why bother trying to get there?

Thank you mister obvious. No comment.

[DFW HOYA]

If the Hoyas can't afford the equivalencies that HC and Fordham offer...and if the AI is holding them back...isn't it time for them to reassess their situation? I know GU would lose face by withdrawing from the Patriot, but how many years have the Hoyas been in the league with no winning season?

Georgetown's last winning season was in 1999. They joined the PL in 2001.

The PL is a safe harbor for Georgetown. It's not like other conferences are knocking down their door with offers, and the peer institutions are more appropriate to where they are right now than the days of St. Peter's and Iona.

Personally speaking, I think the league could do more to bolster associate membership, not only with Fordham and Georgetown, but attract teams like VMI, Richmond, Villanova, or even a Rhode Island or Northeastern that might opt for something outside the 63 scholarship model. The Brooksian model that suggests that some schools aren't prestigious enough off the field to compete in the PL severely limits the pool of potential candidates, much less interested ones like Dayton or others.

[flyenhigh]

That is laughable, there is no evidence that you would "rule" the PL this year. I still think Holy Cross will blow Fordhams doors off and make you look foolish, but if this doesnt happen I will eat a whole big heaping of crow and you can call me an idiot all you want. But I think its the Cross by 3 TD's, as they are clearly the class of the PL this year. Also the Fordham team you played at the beginning of the season is not the same Fordham team you see now, they are young and gelled a whole lot since the Dayton game. Did Dayton improve greatly as well since then? Perhaps not as you said they are experiended and senior laden, and thereore not as capale as making such large leaps.


xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xnonox xnonox xnonox xnonox

What happened man?? Fordham won so what do you have to say about that??

[danefan]

I have to tell you, I was waiting for the "this is a different team then the one you beat in the beginning of the season" argument to surface, but I didn't think it would be the Patriot League guys that brought it out.....xnonono2x

[Model Citizen]

The Brooksian model that suggests that some schools aren't prestigious enough off the field to compete in the PL severely limits the pool of potential candidates, much less interested ones like Dayton or others

Dayton's interested? Says who?

[igo4uni]

Dayton Sux.

[flyenhigh]

Dayton Sux.

You could not handle Dayton..u scared??xbabycryx

[Seawolf97]

You could not handle Dayton..u scared??xbabycryx


Must be a missprint- UNI cant handle Daytonxlolx