St. Thomas: Bring on Ivy & Patriot competition

[Baron Sardonicus]

Article on the current PFL leaders...
https://www.twincities.com/2022/10/21/st-thomas-football-teams-success-increases-profile-helps-beef-up-future-schedules/

Free of academic index chains (ha!), the Toms are #25 in the coaches poll. But will they stay in the PFL? The MVFC will probably encourage them to add $3-4M to their budget, so they can be one of the cool kids.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Look for St. Thomas to join the MVFC along with Augustana. Probably around the 1st of April...

[taper]

If St. Thomas goes to scholarship football, that brings the Summit to that magic number of 6 programs. I've got my eye on Lindenwood too, they have a lot of potential and if they outgrow the OVC the Summit could make a pitch.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Have to wonder why they stayed in D-III so long, with a former NDSU coach and unlimited money to spend on football

[atthewbon]

If St. Thomas goes to scholarship football, that brings the Summit to that magic number of 6 programs. I've got my eye on Lindenwood too, they have a lot of potential and if they outgrow the OVC the Summit could make a pitch.

This would actually be a very interesting conference. It could look something like this. 7 football members, 11 total members. Relatively regionally compact. With many universities in the regions big cities.
North Dakota
North Dakota State
St Thomas
South Dakota State
South Dakota
Omaha (no football)
UMKC (no football)
Oral Roberts (no football)
Lindenwood
Western Illinois
Denver (no football)

If they could convince Northern Iowa to join (I realize that is highly unlikely) this would be a very solid conference.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If St. Thomas goes to scholarship football, that brings the Summit to that magic number of 6 programs. I've got my eye on Lindenwood too, they have a lot of potential and if they outgrow the OVC the Summit could make a pitch.

IMO Summit League Football is about as likely to happen in the next 10 years as America East Football.

Would the 4 Dakota schools really want to leave the MVFC? Maybe it's time for the Missouri Valley to just bite the bullet and invite the quartet for all sports...

[NY Crusader 2010]

This would actually be a very interesting conference. It could look something like this. 8 football members, 11 total members. Relatively regionally compact. With many universities in the regions big cities.
North Dakota
North Dakota State
St Thomas
South Dakota State
South Dakota
Omaha
UMKC (no football)
Oral Roberts (no football)
Lindenwood
Western Illinois
Denver (no football)

If they could convince Northern Iowa to join (I realize that is highly unlikely) this would be a very solid conference.

Omaha also has no football. Zero shot UNI would jump ship for that in all sports.

[atthewbon]

Omaha also has no football. Zero shot UNI would jump ship for that in all sports.

Yea thanks for the correction idk how I missed that. I don't think this will ever happen but I think it would be interesting.

[Professor Chaos]

Summit League football has been discussed ad nauseum in the MVFC threads but I don't really see it having legs. The MVC schools will never pull their other sports out of that conference and YSU wouldn't be willing to leave the Horizon either. I think if push came to shove WIU would also rather keep their football team with the MVC schools in the MVFC and would probably leave the Summit League with their other sports (for the OVC perhaps???) if necessary. Even if they convinced WIU to come with I'm not a fan of a 6-team league that would require WIU to stick around and/or not fold their program to maintain the autobid. I also think St Thomas has eyes for bigger things for their basketball program (Big East would probably be their ultimate destination) so not sure they'd even want to sink money into the football program.

The only chance Summit League football would have is if they could convince some or all of the MVC football schools plus YSU to become affiliate members for football but you'd probably need all of them to get any of them and at that point is it really any different than the current MVFC setup?

[taper]

Summit League football has been discussed ad nauseum in the MVFC threads but I don't really see it having legs. The MVC schools will never pull their other sports out of that conference and YSU wouldn't be willing to leave the Horizon either. I think if push came to shove WIU would also rather keep their football team with the MVC schools in the MVFC and would probably leave the Summit League with their other sports (for the OVC perhaps???) if necessary. Even if they convinced WIU to come with I'm not a fan of a 6-team league that would require WIU to stick around and/or not fold their program to maintain the autobid. I also think St Thomas has eyes for bigger things for their basketball program (Big East would probably be their ultimate destination) so not sure they'd even want to sink money into the football program.

The only chance Summit League football would have is if they could convince some or all of the MVC football schools plus YSU to become affiliate members for football but you'd probably need all of them to get any of them and at that point is it really any different than the current MVFC setup?
I don't see any path to MVC teams joining the Summit unless there's a massive BB realignment that sends their privates to other conferences. If this happens it'll be with St. Thomas, OVC callups, and maybe Northern Colorado, SUU, etc. Our hand might be forced if Denver, Oral Roberts, and/or UMKC get other invites. Crazy things can happen with realignment.

[clenz]

This topic has quickly shifted to bait, and I'm not touching it because I can already hear the "you'rE JUst ScArED thE summiT IS GoiNG tO Pass tHE VALLeY. I KNow we'VE bEEN sAyinG ThAt fOR a DEaCdE Now And thE gap Is AS bIg as It's EVeR been wiTh no INdICiATIon It's GOiNg To ACTuAlLy cLOse but yOu're totaLlY sCarEd OF THE summIt LEAgUe pASSinG THe ValLeY!!!11!!1!!"

[Baron Sardonicus]

Sorry about the baiting.

For those who did not get my sarcasm, I don't believe St. Thomas plans to leave the PFL. Their boosters like to talk about it...but no.

My question would be whether UST can elevate the Pioneer in a meaningful way. Convince the membership to add scholarships? (Doubtful for now)

Bowl game v. the Ivy Leauge? That would be a home run worth swinging for.

[clenz]

Sorry about the baiting.

For those wh did not get my sarcasm, I don't believe St. Thomas plans to leave the PFL. Their boosters like to talk about it...but no.

My question would be whether UST can elevate the Pioneer in a meaningful way. Convince the membership to add scholarships? (Doubtful for now)

Bowl game v. the Ivy Leauge? That would be a home run worth swinging for.
Oh it wasn't you baiting. It was very much the twist into Summit League Football discussion that was turning it into the bait.


It was about time for this topic to come up again. It had been 6 or 7 months since the last time it was brought up. It was due.

[DFW HOYA]

My question would be whether UST can elevate the Pioneer in a meaningful way. Convince the membership to add scholarships? (Doubtful for now)
Bowl game v. the Ivy Leauge? That would be a home run worth swinging for.

Two thoughts:

1. The PFL is a collection of misfitted programs--a couple former D-I, some D-II callups, others former club/D-III schools. Four schools have fewer than 3,200 students. Some schools "could" justify scholarships (depends on the justification) while others just get by as-is. (There's a reason why Davidson isn't playing in the Southern Conference anymore.) As such, there are probably no more than three PFL teams to whom scholarship football is a realistic choice.

2. A bowl game with the Ivy League won't happen, especially if there are scholarships involved. The Ivy tends to look down on any league not their own, so I would seriously doubt Princeton wants to play UST in mid-December before 3,000 people in Bradenton, FL. Much is made about how the Harvard-Yale game is "The Game" and if the end of the season offer is Harvard vs. Stanford, that's one thing, but Harvard vs. Stetson is a non-starter.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Bowl contracts obviously take most/all FBS teams off the table. If the Ivies want to play a ranked FCS non-scholarship team, they'll do so whether the uniforms say Davidson, Stetson, or even Morehead State.

[Baron Sardonicus]

It would be easier to gin up hysteria about Morehead if they had ever won the PFL.

[nodak651]

I also think St Thomas has eyes for bigger things for their basketball program (Big East would probably be their ultimate destination) so not sure they'd even want to sink money into the football program.

The only chance Summit League football would have is if they could convince some or all of the MVC football schools plus YSU to become affiliate members for football but you'd probably need all of them to get any of them and at that point is it really any different than the current MVFC setup?

What makes you think they have eyes on the Big East? Obviously they would accept an offer, but pretty much anyone would. Are they building towards that as a goal? I don't see any evidence that indicates they are, as they have already chose to build a new hockey arena instead of a new basketball arena.

[nodak651]

If St. Thomas goes to scholarship football, that brings the Summit to that magic number of 6 programs. I've got my eye on Lindenwood too, they have a lot of potential and if they outgrow the OVC the Summit could make a pitch.
Lindenwood is a great fit IMO.

[nodak651]

Look for St. Thomas to join the MVFC along with Augustana. Probably around the 1st of April...
...

[nodak651]

Have to wonder why they stayed in D-III so long, with a former NDSU coach and unlimited money to spend on football

Because St. Johns

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/11/29/sports/27diii-leap2-print/27diii-leap4-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg?year=2019&h=1688&w=3000&e12413defd8588f95931e8a02adbdddc&k=ZQJBKqZ0VN&tw=1
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21374541/ows_150639423860649.jpg

[dbackjon]

...


They raise them pretty sharp up there in Southern Manitoba

[dbackjon]

Article on the current PFL leaders...
https://www.twincities.com/2022/10/21/st-thomas-football-teams-success-increases-profile-helps-beef-up-future-schedules/

Free of academic index chains (ha!), the Toms are #25 in the coaches poll. But will they stay in the PFL? The MVFC will probably encourage them to add $3-4M to their budget, so they can be one of the cool kids.


BTW - I am going to have to start following the Toreros a little closer - one of my cousins just committed to playing football there next year.

[clenz]

They raise them pretty sharp up there in Southern Manitoba
Did people really not get the massive amount of sarcasm/setting up the joke in that post about the date?

[bonarae]

Baron hasn't understood how we scholarship football fans view the PFL.

I think, however, that St. Thomas might become the next Campbell or even Mercer... if they add the 63 gradually...

[Laker]

Look for St. Thomas to join the MVFC along with Augustana. Probably around the 1st of April...

It would have to be on April 1. I was just at Augie when the Mavs put the hurt on them two Saturdays ago. The new hockey building is coming along quite well. When I asked a big Augie fan about it he said that was a face saving move after UST was invited to the Summit but they weren't.

[Professor Chaos]

What makes you think they have eyes on the Big East? Obviously they would accept an offer, but pretty much anyone would. Are they building towards that as a goal? I don't see any evidence that indicates they are, as they have already chose to build a new hockey arena instead of a new basketball arena.
Because if you want to make money at the D1 level men's basketball is the best sport to do it with in terms of return on investment, they're in a recruiting hot bed for D1 talent, and they fit the mold of a Big East school (private school from a metro area with no football conference membership that ties it down). They don't have the pedigree yet but I think if they wanted to throw their considerable resources behind it they'd be much more likely to see nationally recognized success in men's basketball than they would in hockey or football.

[clenz]

Because if you want to make money at the D1 level men's basketball is the best sport to do it with in terms of return on investment, they're in a recruiting hot bed for D1 talent, and they fit the mold of a Big East school (private schools from a metro area). They don't have the pedigree yet but I think if they wanted to throw their considerable resources behind they'd be much more likely to see nationally recognized success in men's basketball than they would in hockey or football.
You're getting dangerously close to supporting the Valley, and Valley schools, view on football vs basketball and REALLLLY angering the rest of the Dakota 4 fan bases. Tread carefully moving forward.

[SteelSD]

My big question is when does the PL get tired of St. Thomas winning and kick them out…?

[Baron Sardonicus]

My big question is when does the PL get tired of St. Thomas winning and kick them out…?
The Toreros have won at least a piece of the championship most of the past 15 years. They also enhanced an aid package or two, in violation of league rules. No one kicked them out.

Jacksonville cheated its way through the Kerwin Bell years. Amazingly, no one kicked them out.

St. Thomas, which has one less PFL title than Marist, has a clean program, as far as I know. They are welcome to stay for the foreseeable future.

[taper]

The Toreros have won at least a piece of the championship most of the past 15 years. They also enhanced an aid package or two, in violation of league rules. No one kicked them out.

Jacksonville cheated its way through the Kerwin Bell years. Amazingly, no one kicked them out.

St. Thomas, which has one less PFL title than Marist, has a clean program, as far as I know. They are welcome to stay for the foreseeable future.
You missed(understandably) the joke. St. Thomas went straight from D3 to D1 because their former D3 conference kicked them out for being too good. Really. That's not a rumor or speculation, their conference directly said so.

[atthewbon]

Because if you want to make money at the D1 level men's basketball is the best sport to do it with in terms of return on investment, they're in a recruiting hot bed for D1 talent, and they fit the mold of a Big East school (private school from a metro area with no football conference membership that ties it down). They don't have the pedigree yet but I think if they wanted to throw their considerable resources behind it they'd be much more likely to see nationally recognized success in men's basketball than they would in hockey or football.

No doubt they'd love to join the Big East but they'd need to become a basketball powerhouse, I just do not see that happening. But with NIL and the rate college sports are changing who knows.

St Thomas will never be directly making money for the university from athletics only P5 football programs and a select few basketball program make significant money (though like you said they are way more likely to be a national brand in basketball as opposed to football). However if the goal is joining the Big East it is to improve the brand of the school. Being associated with all other Big East schools will do wonders for the school as a whole and attract way more students. This is the same reason the Big Ten cares so much about academics and "cultural fit" in its additions. You have to remember these moves are made by the presidents and have much more to do with the school as a whole than simply the athletic teams. This is also why playing Ivy and Patriot teams may be so attractive, it can help associated St Thomas with those schools.

While I may like to see it and find it fun to hypothesize about what future conference may look like it just does not make since from either sides perspective for anything to change for the Dakota schools. The only reason a FBS conference would want any of them is for stability, and if that's the case is it really something they should join anyway. I still think there could be a scenario where the P5 or a sub-section of it breaks off, opening the doors for a G5 FCS merger of some sorts but if it happens it appears it will be years from now. You can never be too sure with college sports. I was realigning the Big Ten divisions with some Pac 12 teams in them for fun and a year later USC and UCLA are joining so who knows.

[Baron Sardonicus]

You missed(understandably) the joke. St. Thomas went straight from D3 to D1 because their former D3 conference kicked them out for being too good. Really. That's not a rumor or speculation, their conference directly said so.

Bit-O-St. Olaf humor? Got it.

I appreciated another opportunity to rant...

[Baron Sardonicus]

Regarding the content of the article...I predict Dartmouth will get on the Tommie train after Harvard.

[taper]

Is there a private school in the whole country that wouldn't love to join the Big East? Who would blame a school for taking such an invite? The problem is those invites are very rare and only given for good reason. There's a definite chance the Summit could lose St. Thomas, Oral Roberts, or Denver, but probably not to BE.

[JacksFan40]

You're getting dangerously close to supporting the Valley, and Valley schools, view on football vs basketball and REALLLLY angering the rest of the Dakota 4 fan bases. Tread carefully moving forward.
Anyone with a brain knows being a mid major basketball powerhouse is far more profitable than being an FCS powerhouse. NDSU got as much publicity for their tournament win over the Sooners years ago as they got for some of their FCS titles. I’m going to assume UNI has also gotten more publicity from basketball success than it has football.

[JacksFan40]

St. Thomas could move to scholarship football eventually, there’s really no rush since they’re not playoff eligible yet though. Their football program has a really good thing going for now in the PFL, they get to play D1 competition and travel across the US essentially to expand their brand. Much more profitable than playing D3 football almost exclusively in Minnesota.

[clenz]

Anyone with a brain knows being a mid major basketball powerhouse is far more profitable than being an FCS powerhouse. NDSU got as much publicity for their tournament win over the Sooners years ago as they got for some of their FCS titles. I’m going to assume UNI has also gotten more publicity from basketball success than it has football.

Multiple covers of sports illustrated, ESPY awards, multiple top 20 rankings, etc.

The ROI on basketball, and ability to make it into a household name, is so much higher as a MM basketball school than FCS, or even G5, football school.

It’s not even close on a national level if you’re able to built a respectable MM program in basketball.

Valpo is a prime example - as is Drake to an extent. Valpo still gets talked about non stop, and everyone knows who they are, because of one magic **** from Bruce Drew in 1998. At this point they are a bad basketball program in the Valley yet the name will carry as much weight nationally as any FCS football school to the average sports fan.

St. Thomas’s best path to growth and return on investment isn’t dumping 4 million dollars to be in the MVFC or Summit Football League. It would be to do what Drake has, Valpo has. Get the name as a basketball school, grow through there because that is where the schools they want to be peers with are. The Valley, A10 and Big East. Give it 5 more years and watch what they do. If they start to grow watch the Valley come for them. Either to get to 14 or to replace someone that moved on (please be Evansville leaving for the OVC or Horizon)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sader87]

Holy Cross turned down a Big East invite, twice...true story xdrunkyx

[NY Crusader 2010]

Sorry about the baiting.

For those who did not get my sarcasm, I don't believe St. Thomas plans to leave the PFL. Their boosters like to talk about it...but no.

My question would be whether UST can elevate the Pioneer in a meaningful way. Convince the membership to add scholarships? (Doubtful for now)

Bowl game v. the Ivy Leauge? That would be a home run worth swinging for.

Doubtful forever. The only reason the PFL exists is because a bunch of basketball schools decided they could create a model where they could feasibly sponsor low-level DI football in an airplane league without allocating the funding on scholarships. If any given PFL member decided to add scholarships tomorrow, they'd immediately have a geographically sensible league they could join.

Marist => NEC
Davidson => Big South or SoCon
San Diego => Big Sky
Dayton => Patriot (maybe) or OVC if it continues to exist
Stetson => Big South or Southland or A-SUN if it continues to exist
Morehead => Whichever league survives between OVC and ASUN
Valpo => Missouri Valley
Drake => Missouri Valley
Presbyterian => Big South (again)
St. Thomas => Missouri Valley
Butler => I guess the Missouri Valley or OVC if it continues to exist

[NY Crusader 2010]

Regarding the content of the article...I predict Dartmouth will get on the Tommie train after Harvard.

No Ivy League team will schedule St. Thomas if they legitimately get good at football and prove themselves over the next 3-4 years.

Telling you now they will beat Harvard once out of those 2 games scheduled. You heard it here first.

[WestCoastAggie]

This would actually be a very interesting conference. It could look something like this. 7 football members, 11 total members. Relatively regionally compact. With many universities in the regions big cities.
North Dakota
North Dakota State
St Thomas
South Dakota State
South Dakota
Omaha (no football)
UMKC (no football)
Oral Roberts (no football)
Lindenwood
Western Illinois
Denver (no football)

If they could convince Northern Iowa to join (I realize that is highly unlikely) this would be a very solid conference.
Are are other relevant options for the Summit other than Lindenwood? The travel may be a bit of a stretch for them and they do have many more sports than the Summit offers, IIRC.

[NY Crusader 2010]

St. Thomas could be a fit for the Big East....25 years down the road. Given that that league has shown extremely limited interest in expansion, my guess is St. Thomas has a lot of work to do before the premier Catholic basketball league in the country gets on its knees and begs them to join. St. Louis and Dayton are waiting in the wings right now and not even a hint of a rumor that they might get in. Not to mention you already have ready-to-go private A-10 programs in solid college sports markets (Davidson and Richmond) ahead of them in line.

[Baron Sardonicus]

No Ivy League team will schedule St. Thomas if they legitimately get good at football and prove themselves over the next 3-4 years.



That's what happened to USD. No more Ivy League games.

[NY Crusader 2010]

That's what happened to USD. No more Ivy League games.

USD was Harvard's favorite non-scholly toy for a while. That ended when the Toreros beat them. Same thing will happen when they get knocked around by St. Thomas at least once out of the two meetings. Then the Harvard-Davidson series will start cranking up....

[bonarae]

No Ivy League team will schedule St. Thomas if they legitimately get good at football and prove themselves over the next 3-4 years.

Telling you now they will beat Harvard once out of those 2 games scheduled. You heard it here first.

What kind of opponents will the Tommies fill in on their schedules, then? xchinscratchx

[taper]

Are are other relevant options for the Summit other than Lindenwood? The travel may be a bit of a stretch for them and they do have many more sports than the Summit offers, IIRC.
All kinds of things can happen in realignment so take this with a grain of salt. Lindenwood and SEMO as a pair might be great adds if we can get them. Northern Colorado has 50+ years of history with the 4 Dakotas and would be an excellent travel partner with Denver. Southern Utah and Utah Tech currently have other plans but if the WAC collapses again we might take a look. That's 5 teams + St. Thomas of varying possibility, and it only takes 1 more to get a Summit Football autobid.

[SteelSD]

The Toreros have won at least a piece of the championship most of the past 15 years. They also enhanced an aid package or two, in violation of league rules. No one kicked them out.

Jacksonville cheated its way through the Kerwin Bell years. Amazingly, no one kicked them out.

St. Thomas, which has one less PFL title than Marist, has a clean program, as far as I know. They are welcome to stay for the foreseeable future.
Sorry, I assumed that others outside the Summit League knew the history of why St. Thomas made the jump. Totally understandable you didn’t and wasn’t a good joke anyway!

[JacksFan40]

Multiple covers of sports illustrated, ESPY awards, multiple top 20 rankings, etc.

The ROI on basketball, and ability to make it into a household name, is so much higher as a MM basketball school than FCS, or even G5, football school.

It’s not even close on a national level if you’re able to built a respectable MM program in basketball.

Valpo is a prime example - as is Drake to an extent. Valpo still gets talked about non stop, and everyone knows who they are, because of one magic **** from Bruce Drew in 1998. At this point they are a bad basketball program in the Valley yet the name will carry as much weight nationally as any FCS football school to the average sports fan.

St. Thomas’s best path to growth and return on investment isn’t dumping 4 million dollars to be in the MVFC or Summit Football League. It would be to do what Drake has, Valpo has. Get the name as a basketball school, grow through there because that is where the schools they want to be peers with are. The Valley, A10 and Big East. Give it 5 more years and watch what they do. If they start to grow watch the Valley come for them. Either to get to 14 or to replace someone that moved on (please be Evansville leaving for the OVC or Horizon)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tommies had the top Summit League recruiting class this past year, and I believe a Top 60 overall class. It won’t take them very long to get going. Once they get a full roster of D1 recruits they will be something to watch. They went 10-20 with a D3 roster, which is actually fairly impressive. The sky is the limit right now for them. I’d also bet that as a PFL member, they’ll achieve more than even San Diego could. They’ll be something to watch over the next decade.

[nodak651]

Because if you want to make money at the D1 level men's basketball is the best sport to do it with in terms of return on investment, they're in a recruiting hot bed for D1 talent, and they fit the mold of a Big East school (private school from a metro area with no football conference membership that ties it down). They don't have the pedigree yet but I think if they wanted to throw their considerable resources behind it they'd be much more likely to see nationally recognized success in men's basketball than they would in hockey or football.

I agree with you, but they are building a dedicated hockey arena, not a basketball arena, and not a multipurpose arena. I don't think we've either seen evidence or heard them say anything to suggest that Big East aspirations are on their radar. Given the school's location and the demographical make-up of the students and alumni base, paired with a lack of plans to significantly improve their basketball arena in the near future, it seems the school has chosen to prioritize hockey. I'm guessing that for St. Thomas, they likely feel the ROI on hockey is more predictable than basketball, where significant investment may be more akin to a lottery ticket.

[DFW HOYA]

Holy Cross turned down a Big East invite, twice...true story xdrunkyx

Once.

[Gil Dobie]

Note their address, Suumit League was in the scripture. Money is no problem for the St Thomas mafia. ;)

University of St. Thomas, Minnesota
2115 Summit Avenue
St. Paul, Minnesota 55105 USA

Our three campuses in St. Paul, downtown Minneapolis and Rome, Italy

[Go Green]

USD was Harvard's favorite non-scholly toy for a while. That ended when the Toreros beat them. Same thing will happen when they get knocked around by St. Thomas at least once out of the two meetings. Then the Harvard-Davidson series will start cranking up....

USD also beat Princeton.

[Laker]

Note their address, Suumit League was in the scripture. Money is no problem for the St Thomas mafia. ;)

University of St. Thomas, Minnesota
2115 Summit Avenue
St. Paul, Minnesota 55105 USA

Our three campuses in St. Paul, downtown Minneapolis and Rome, Italy

Too bad that UST and St John's didn't play a game in Rome. That would have been epic.

[DFW HOYA]

Note their address, Summit League was in the scripture. Money is no problem for the St Thomas mafia. ;)


UST is 191st overall in endowment, behind San Diego but ahead of UC Davis.

[SDFS]

I agree with you, but they are building a dedicated hockey arena, not a basketball arena, and not a multipurpose arena. I don't think we've either seen evidence or heard them say anything to suggest that Big East aspirations are on their radar. Given the school's location and the demographical make-up of the students and alumni base, paired with a lack of plans to significantly improve their basketball arena in the near future, it seems the school has chosen to prioritize hockey. I'm guessing that for St. Thomas, they likely feel the ROI on hockey is more predictable than basketball, where significant investment may be more akin to a lottery ticket.

The Big East is known for playing in Professional venues for basketball. St. Thomas would have two available (Target Center or Xcel Center) to them. So, building an on-campus arena might not be as critical for basketball versus hockey.

[Gil Dobie]

UST is 191st overall in endowment, behind San Diego but ahead of UC Davis.

Mafia jokingly implies what isn't in the books.

[bulldog10jw]

USD also beat Princeton.

USD split four games with Yale

[nodak651]

The Big East is known for playing in Professional venues for basketball. St. Thomas would have two available (Target Center or Xcel Center) to them. So, building an on-campus arena might not be as critical for basketball versus hockey.

Highly doubt they can generate the fan support to justify that. Highland park, their own community, pretty much hates them. Casual fans can also go to gopher games like a mile away from the Target Center. The excel energy center is a hockey arena that would have bad site lines and it's unlikely they would want to deal with the hassle of changing the court over for 2k fans.

[Dane96]

Because if you want to make money at the D1 level men's basketball is the best sport to do it with in terms of return on investment, they're in a recruiting hot bed for D1 talent, and they fit the mold of a Big East school (private school from a metro area with no football conference membership that ties it down). They don't have the pedigree yet but I think if they wanted to throw their considerable resources behind it they'd be much more likely to see nationally recognized success in men's basketball than they would in hockey or football.

All may be true but St. Thomas has ZERO chance at going to the Big East in the next 20 years. Zero. The list of teams ahead of them is long and distinguished.

[Bisonoline]

All may be true but St. Thomas has ZERO chance at going to the Big East in the next 20 years. Zero. The list of teams ahead of them is long and distinguished.

All depends on how big of a splash they make.

[SDFS]

All depends on how big of a splash they make.

Twin Cities produces basketball talent. A group of 3 stay home for St. Thomas, you can get good really fast. NIL money, lots of St. Thomas grads working in corporate offices.

[Go...gate]

I would welcome a home and home for Colgate with St. Thomas or USD.

I believe Vince Lombardi's son, Vincent Jr., played FB for St. Thomas before he went on to law school.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Is it coincidental that as FCS newbie St. Thomas enters the rankings, Xavier University's Board of Trustees has decided to discuss adding a PFL program?

[Dane96]

All depends on how big of a splash they make.

No, it doesn't. They have a list, they've checked it twice and, while open to modification, they know their Top 10 candidates. St. Thomas isn't even an after thought at this time. Some of those candidates have been mentioned in this thread. Some have not.

[Dane96]

Is it coincidental that as FCS newbie St. Thomas enters the rankings, Xavier University's Board of Trustees has decided to discuss adding a PFL program?

My understanding is this is not because of St. Thomas. This has been talked about for years but COVID has actually pushed this forward. It is a way to increase paying, male enrollment. Male enrollment is just under 21% less than Female enrollment (Undergraduate). Total undergraduate enrollment has decreased by something near 6%. With a PFL roster size of about 115 players and an average cost of attendance (without Room and Board) at 35k, that is a cool $4 million in revenue that helps cover the close to $10 million deficit that has been incurred due to reduced enrollment.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Consider me a little bit surprised that Xavier is having that much of an enrollment problem.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Funny how this approach takes hold some places, but not others. Is the Xavier situation much different than what Saint Louis is facing? What about Bradley and its multimillion dollar deficit spending?

[DFW HOYA]

Consider me a little bit surprised that Xavier is having that much of an enrollment problem.

Not surprised given the enrollment trends - as has been said, you can't change demographics. Ohio is scheduled to reduce by 11 percent its annual high school graduates over the next 12 years. That's a lot of kids that are not going to end up at Xavier, Dayton, Marietta, Tiffin, etc., or simply taking the better priced offer at a state school instead.

Xavier is not a competitive school for admission--its current accept rate is 84 percent and SAT/ACT's are not required.


Funny how this approach takes hold some places, but not others. Is the Xavier situation much different than what Saint Louis is facing? What about Bradley and its multimillion dollar deficit spending?

SLU has over 8,000 undergraduates with a $1.5 billion endowment. Bradley has 4,600 students and a $400 million endowment. Xavier has a $259 million endowment.

Put another way: on average. SLU's endowment turns out $75 million in cash returns every year. Xavier returns $13 million.

[Laker]

Is it coincidental that as FCS newbie St. Thomas enters the rankings, Xavier University's Board of Trustees has decided to discuss adding a PFL program?

I hadn't heard about this. I think it would be a good move considering where most of the other schools are located.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Xavier has a $259 million endowment.

Afternoon update: Xavier's piggy bank just grew by about 20 percent. They may do a football team anyway.

[BisonFan02]

Did somebody say Summit League Football? xlolx Lets ****ing go!

[BisonFan02]

Summit League Football (and the subsequent increase in dedicated/quality of all sports conference members) is the only thing that should keep NDSU in the FCS. Otherwise, they need to parlay their football program to move everything up to a more stable situation if at all possible.

[katss07]

Man, I can think of a few Bison fans who might be a tad upset if NDSU’s next conference move is into a summit football league

[BisonFan02]

Man, I can think of a few Bison fans who might be a tad upset if NDSU’s next conference move is into a summit football league

I mean....it's the MVFC without the chaff. Also allows for more all sports rivals. Nothing carries over to the other sports with the MVC schools. Having an all sports Summit would also at least try to keep from having a revolving door of non-football schools like UMKC...IUPUI...IP-Fort Wayne...etc.

[DFW HOYA]

Afternoon update: Xavier's piggy bank just grew by about 20 percent. They may do a football team anyway.

A $50 million gift is not an endowment gift--if it were, they wouldn't spend it.

This is why schools can have a $500 million capital campaign and their endowment goes up by only $100 million or so--when it's spent, it's not endowment.

[katss07]

I mean....it's the MVFC without the chaff. Also allows for more all sports rivals. Nothing carries over to the other sports with the MVC schools. Having an all sports Summit would also at least try to keep from having a revolving door of non-football schools like UMKC...IUPUI...IP-Fort Wayne...etc.
I get that, from an all-sports standpoint, especially basketball (in terms of opponent consistency), it makes a ton of sense and would probably be the right move within the FCS. But still. From a football centric prospective. That’s a worse conference.

[BisonFan02]

I get that, from an all-sports standpoint, especially basketball (in terms of opponent consistency), it makes a ton of sense and would probably be the right move within the FCS. But still. From a football centric prospective. That’s a worse conference.

Yes and no. There's a good chunk of the MVC schools that feel like they may as well have one foot into the Pioneer level rather than scholly football. If pushed, there isn't a single one of them that wouldn't trade men's bball moves/success at the expense of their football program. Not a single one of them...

I'm not even saying I blame them...its just a different mission.

[Sader87]

Once.

It was actually twice....initially when the league was first formed and then when Pitt and Villanova were added a couple years later. Edward Bennett Williams, Ron Perry and George Blaney pleaded with Fr Brooks to have HC join the league, they were once again spurned by the good Father....one of the few negotiations EBW evah lost. xdrunkyx

[DFW HOYA]

It was actually twice....initially when the league was first formed and then when Pitt and Villanova were added a couple years later. Edward Bennett Williams, Ron Perry and George Blaney pleaded with Fr Brooks to have HC join the league, they were once again spurned by the good Father....one of the few negotiations EBW evah lost. xdrunkyx

I've read Brooks may have had some contempt for Georgetown. Did he not get along with Tim Healy when Healy was at Fordham?

[Sader87]

I've read Brooks may have had some contempt for Georgetown. Did he not get along with Tim Healy when Healy was at Fordham?

From what I've gathered ovah the years, the real friction was with what Fr Brooks thought Georgetown and John Thompson were establishing at Georgetown i.e. what he perceived as a "win at all costs" attitude etc...

[DFW HOYA]

From what I've gathered ovah the years, the real friction was with what Fr Brooks thought Georgetown and John Thompson were establishing at Georgetown i.e. what he perceived as a "win at all costs" attitude etc...

Not the case--one call to Healy would have settled this issue, but Brooks does not sound like someone who always listened to others.

[Go Green]

From what I've gathered ovah the years, the real friction was with what Fr Brooks thought Georgetown and John Thompson were establishing at Georgetown i.e. what he perceived as a "win at all costs" attitude etc...

I also read that following the BC point-shaving scandal, Brooks felt vindicated that he kept Holy Cross out of "big-time" basketball.

[Pards Rule]

Hey I would love to travel out to MSP area. Ready for an invite from St Thomas! I went to Fargo to watch Lafayette in 2011 - it was a great time. Never have been in MSP (did do the crossover to Moorhead from Fargo to hit MN as part of my 50 states - I know cheap shot but it was there for the taking lol, but want to do more MN) but my dad was a Philly based Graco employee for many years - loved the company! They wanted him to move to MSP but he kept dodging it. He was tempted to do DTW in early 80s as Graco Robotics wanted to post him there to just do the Big 3 accounts. My mom vetoed it. I couldnt get tickets to the Super Bowl even - go Eagles!