MAAC / PFL Rumor

[DetroitFlyer]

Iona and LaSalle join the PFL, along with Campbell. Marist declines PFL invite.

What will Marist do?

[Go...gate]

Iona and LaSalle join the PFL, along with Campbell. Marist declines PFL invite.

What will Marist do?

Join the NEC or Patriot for Football-only.

[Seawolf97]

Is Lasalle really going to maintain their program ?

[maacfb]

if true, marist will hope that the young guys develop and that they can somehow become competitive in their Patriot league games in hopes of getting an all sports invite to the PL imo

[Model Citizen]

if true...

Ever email your athletic director? Is there a reason he/she wouldn't tell you whether it's true?

[Go...gate]

if true, marist will hope that the young guys develop and that they can somehow become competitive in their Patriot league games in hopes of getting an all sports invite to the PL imo


Who knows. The PL clearly has struggled with the issue of expansion. However, it is also entirely possible that the PL will resolve the scholarship issue before any expansion. If that is the case, Marist football has nowhere to go but the NEC, and they will have to give 30 FB scholarships.

[aceinthehole]

Join the NEC or Patriot for Football-only.

No chance they join the NEC. That ship has sailed.

They were asked more than once in previous years from what I have been told. They do not want to offer schollys and and they didn't want to join the NEC as an associate member.

The NEC has moved on and has no need for Marist with the addition of Duquesne and Bryant.

[footballer23]

No chance they join the NEC. That ship has sailed.

They were asked more than once in previous years from what I have been told. They do not want to offer schollys and and they didn't want to join the NEC as an associate member.

The NEC has moved on and has no need for Marist with the addition of Duquesne and Bryant.

Who's Bryant?

[aceinthehole]

Who's Bryant?

See here: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31253&highlight=bryant

[dgreco]

I dont think the NEC would move to 10 teams now to be honest with you. Unless an Iona came on for all sports I do not see it happening. 9 is ideal for football and the 12 teams is a decent thing for all sports.

[Dane96]

Marist screwed the pooch on this one!

[dgreco]

Iona and LaSalle join the PFL, along with Campbell. Marist declines PFL invite.

What will Marist do?

Solid rumor or just some floating thoughts that people hope happen from within?

[Seahawks Fan]

I doubt that the PL wants Marist. I still think the NEC would take them for football. A nine game schedule seems pretty good to me. Or you could always play an eight game conference schedule and rotate the competitiion. Again, Marist seems to have no interest in the NEC. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

What source is there for the Iona and LaSalle information? I, too, think LaSalle might be calling it quits for football.

[andy7171]

LaSalle in the PFL, great news for Valpo!

[DetroitFlyer]

Pure rumor and speculation at this point, as far as I know.... Like most rumors I have to think that something generated it.... Frankly, I would be very surprised to see Iona and LaSalle join the PFL and Marist doing something else. The only way this makes sense to me is if the PL has offered some hope to Marist. As I have mentioned before, the PL at one time admitted Towson for football, so admitting Marist does not seem like that much of a reach.... I suppose that Marist could play as an independent for a while to see how things shake out.... I mean playing in the MAAC is almost like being an independent team.... One thing about PFL expansion plans, the lid is kept pretty tight and information, if it is available at all, leaks out very slowly. I floated this here to see if any other AGS fans had any insight....

[dgreco]

Pure rumor and speculation at this point, as far as I know.... Like most rumors I have to think that something generated it.... Frankly, I would be very surprised to see Iona and LaSalle join the PFL and Marist doing something else. The only way this makes sense to me is if the PL has offered some hope to Marist. As I have mentioned before, the PL at one time admitted Towson for football, so admitting Marist does not seem like that much of a reach.... I suppose that Marist could play as an independent for a while to see how things shake out.... I mean playing in the MAAC is almost like being an independent team.... One thing about PFL expansion plans, the lid is kept pretty tight and information, if it is available at all, leaks out very slowly. I floated this here to see if any other AGS fans had any insight....

It seems like all 3 would have to go for this to work. They could travel together to cut costs, they would still be able to play each other. I can see all 3 or 2 of the teams taking the midwest trip and then busing it to save money. IDK where all 3 teams would fit? Iona has put a lot of effort into the program, would they go PFL by themselves? would they get into the NEC? Marist really has 3 options but seems to not want to budge on 2 of them, but will the PL throw that offer out? or will they just sit still. La Salle seems to have the least amount of hope. They are a glorified D3 team and a bad one at that. I think it would be best for them to just cut ties with the programs, unless all 3 go ot the PFL I don't see La Salle lasting.

[Franks Tanks]

It seems like all 3 would have to go for this to work. They could travel together to cut costs, they would still be able to play each other. I can see all 3 or 2 of the teams taking the midwest trip and then busing it to save money. IDK where all 3 teams would fit? Iona has put a lot of effort into the program, would they go PFL by themselves? would they get into the NEC? Marist really has 3 options but seems to not want to budge on 2 of them, but will the PL throw that offer out? or will they just sit still. La Salle seems to have the least amount of hope. They are a glorified D3 team and a bad one at that. I think it would be best for them to just cut ties with the programs, unless all 3 go ot the PFL I don't see La Salle lasting.

I dont know if you even call them a glorified anything, they are a D-III team period and D-I only in name. By far the worst FCS team in the nation

[DetroitFlyer]

LaSalle....

Well, someone has to be the worst in the nation, now don't they....

The way I see it, as long as a school still has a program, there is hope. We all know that once a program dies, bringing it back is almost impossible....

LaSalle has a better team than Marquette, Xavier, Detroit, Chicago, and the list goes on and on, ( unfortunately ). Those of you that come here and denigrate LaSalle's program are being very short sighted. If you want to rag on a team, go to the football graveyard website, ( http://www.geocities.com/football_graveyard/ ), pick one of MANY teams, and rag on them!

The PFL could be the best thing to ever happen to LaSalle football! Playing is a stable conference of good teams, with the possibility of an AQ in the future, would be far better than trying to survive in the slowly declining MAAC. LaSalle already has a natural connection to Dayton through the A-10, "traditional foes" Iona and Marist would still be around, and they would have a solid base conference wise in which to rebuild the program!

My hat is off to LaSalle for having the intestinal fortitude to stick it out, unlike so many before them! GO EXPLORERS!!!!!

[LeopardFan04]

As bad as LaSalle has been, I still can't see them dropping the program that easily. Keep in mind that the program was just brought back about ten years ago (I think it had been dropped during WWII.), and I think they'd be hesitant to drop football again relatively so soon since they brought it back. They'd be admitting "failure."

[danefan]

Hey DetroitFlyer.....you do realize that if all these teams join the PFL your SOS is going to drop even further and you'll be ranked behind the NEC in the Sagarin rankings right????xthumbsupx xlolx

You still on board?xcoffeex



You know I'm kidding.

[DetroitFlyer]

Yeah, the additions of Marist and LaSalle are not looking like they will strengthen the PFL.... Still, I would rather see them come on board and keep their programs going rather than fold or try to play as independents. I think that the PFL will be an interesting conference over the years.... Detroit is still making noise about joining, maybe Lipscomb someday and who knows who might come out of the woodwork.... Of course teams like MSU, USD or maybe others might bolt someday for another conference.... Based on this year's results, Campbell, Marist and LaSalle will pull the PFL down, while Iona will pull the PFL up. Still, I believe that year in and year out, whatever team emerges from this group of 12 as the champion will be one of the best teams in all of FCS and worthy of an AQ.... Now, I just have to convince 12 AD's, 12 Presidents, 12 Boards of Trustees, and Patty....

[GannonFan]

Working only 5 minutes from LaSalle, and living in the Philly area my whole life, I think I've earned the ability to constructively and knowledgeably denigrate the LaSalle football program. Granted, having a football program is better than not having one, but let's be realistic about what LaSalle is putting on the field week in and week out - they are a bad, bad DIII football team. They lose to DIII teams right now that aren't even good DIII teams - heck, LaSalle actively ducks the real good DIII schools in the area (Wesley, Widener, Del Valley, Rowan) - LaSalle lost 28-0 to an Ursinus team that's not even a great DIII school - I shudder to think of the hurting the other schools would do if LaSalle played them. They might get 1000 to 2000 people per game, but putting that into perspective that would put them in at a little under half of the typical high school crowds in the area. And that's with opponents that are pretty local (within 30-45 minutes).

Joining the PFL, IMO, won't have much impact on the team. No offense to those in the PFL, but no one here in this area knows a whole lot about FCS football in general (CAA for instance), and they certainly won't know or care much about a conference that is a far flung and as distant as the PFL is. Philly isn't a college football town to begin with, so LaSalle is already at a disadvantage. It's not in the best part of the city, so people aren't going to seek it out if they even knew they were playing football there. And financially, LaSalle is not a very well to do school - the basketball program, a Big 5 team along with nova, Penn, Temple, and St Joes, has struggled for years because they operate on a shoe-string budget. Football operates the same way and that's not going to change. And LaSalle is also in the center of a really crowded football landscape - there are literally at least 50 schools, at all levels, in the general area that are better programs than LaSalle, and it's not like LaSalle is a great academic institution that can pull people in that way.

I like LaSalle (I'm a big Big 5 fan), and having a football team is great, but let's not get under any illusions that LaSalle is ever going to be much more than what they are right now - a bad football team. Just too many obstacles in the way, whether they join the PFL or not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What if the Explorers went to the Patriot League? LaSalle did at one time play in the "Middle Atlantic" conference in basketball with Delaware, Lehigh and Lafayette.

There would be an uproar from PL fans with big signs saying NONONONO, but the Patriot League might make the most sense for them... if they are willing to upgrade the spending on their athletics programs, a huge "if".

Marist, Iona and LaSalle may not be a good upgrade in football for the Patriot League, but if one or all joined the Patriot League in all-sports the PL could be a great mid-major basketball conference.

[GannonFan]

What if the Explorers went to the Patriot League? LaSalle did at one time play in the "Middle Atlantic" conference in basketball with Delaware, Lehigh and Lafayette.

There would be an uproar from PL fans with big signs saying NONONONO, but the Patriot League might make the most sense for them... if they are willing to upgrade the spending on their athletics programs, a huge "if".

Marist, Iona and LaSalle may not be a good upgrade in football for the Patriot League, but if one or all joined the Patriot League in all-sports the PL could be a great mid-major basketball conference.

What happens, then, to the appearance of academic rigor that the Patriot League likes to hang their hat on? Marist isn't bad, and I don't know about Iona, but LaSalle would seem to be a significant step down in that regard. And yes, the huge "if" is the willingness to upgrade spending - they let a nationally recognized basketball program fall into disarray, so it's hard to see how they would pump money they don't have into a football program that would only marginally increase their attractiveness.

[aceinthehole]

First, kudos to the PFL. Seriously. My impression is they want to be a premire academic league of D-I NON-SCHOLLY football teams. I don't think anyone can say that's a bad idea.

The biggest problem is the nationwide footprint is not ideal for running a FB team on a budget. If financially feasable, Iona and LaSalle to the PFL are a great idea. I don't think we want to see more programs fold. For the most part the PFL is small private DI schools that can't afford or don't want schollys. I do think some fans that think 63 schoolys or bust is the only way to go are being a little close minded. Although, I don't want to get into the AQ issue beacsue I'm not sure that a good fit - a PFL championship game may be a better idea.

Marist may want in th PL (I haven't seen it confirmed by a university or PL source), but it certainly apperas they don't want to join the PFL or NEC. Their plans are still a mystery to me.

---
Detroit - can you mock up an expanded 12-team PFL with 2 divisions? (Can you give me the location of each school and its UG enrollment)

[Seahawks Fan]

How about an east coast / west coast based PFL that meets in a playoff?

[aceinthehole]

What happens, then, to the appearance of academic rigor that the Patriot League likes to hang their hat on? Marist isn't bad, and I don't know about Iona, but LaSalle would seem to be a significant step down in that regard. And yes, the huge "if" is the willingness to upgrade spending - they let a nationally recognized basketball program fall into disarray, so it's hard to see how they would pump money they don't have into a football program that would only marginally increase their attractiveness.

Academics aside (although that's what the PL values most), I think the problem with current and former MAAC schools is $$$$$. St. John's, Siena, Canisius, Siena, Fairfield, and St. Petes all dropped FB becasue of $$$$. FU wold have been an ideal member for the PL.

I agree with GF, I just don't see how team like LaSalle (with a history of being cheap) can afford a schollys or equivs. Any PL fan holding out the slimist of hope that LaSalle or Iona is going to spend a lot more $$$ to bring it up to the PL level of competativeness is kidding themselves. I'm not even sure Marist is willing to nearly double their FB expenditures.

Face it, if they can't afford the 30 schollys proposed by the NEC, they ain't joining the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What happens, then, to the appearance of academic rigor that the Patriot League likes to hang their hat on? Marist isn't bad, and I don't know about Iona, but LaSalle would seem to be a significant step down in that regard. And yes, the huge "if" is the willingness to upgrade spending - they let a nationally recognized basketball program fall into disarray, so it's hard to see how they would pump money they don't have into a football program that would only marginally increase their attractiveness.

A fair point, but the Patriot League also has American in basketball which doesn't fit the academic mold either. And I wonder if the Patriot League presidents might look the other way if they could get a piece of that "Big 5" action. I'm thinking more in terms of basketball here instead of football, because what does LaSalle get in the A-10 aside from basketball recognition?

[GannonFan]

A fair point, but the Patriot League also has American in basketball which doesn't fit the academic mold either. And I wonder if the Patriot League presidents might look the other way if they could get a piece of that "Big 5" action. I'm thinking more in terms of basketball here instead of football, because what does LaSalle get in the A-10 aside from basketball recognition?

Well, they do get 2 games versus Temple and 2 games versus St. Joes every year because of the conference affiliation. That would be cut in half if they moved basketball to the Patriot League.

[bluehenbillk]

I'll agree with GF on the state of LaSalle football, you have to be REALLY desperate to want to be associated with that level of football.

[DetroitFlyer]

That level of football.... As I said, go visit the football graveyard and then come talk to me about "that level of football".

Who is to say that LaSalle will not improve over the years if they get into a stable conference? One thing is absolutely certain, if they fold, they certainly will not get any better!

Apparently you just do not know what it is like to not have football on your campus, or worse yet be directly involved in trying to launch or bring back a program. I can assure you, the fledgling Xavier club football team would love to be playing at LaSalle's level! Same at Marquette!

I know things look bleak now, but who knows what the future holds....

[Franks Tanks]

That level of football.... As I said, go visit the football graveyard and then come talk to me about "that level of football".

Who is to say that LaSalle will not improve over the years if they get into a stable conference? One thing is absolutely certain, if they fold, they certainly will not get any better!

Apparently you just do not know what it is like to not have football on your campus, or worse yet be directly involved in trying to launch or bring back a program. I can assure you, the fledgling Xavier club football team would love to be playing at LaSalle's level! Same at Marquette!

I know things look bleak now, but who knows what the future holds....


Your right flyer, football-even poor football is better than no football at all. It just seems LaSalle has no financial commitment whatsoever for the team, and I cant see them improving no matter what conference they are in if they dont spend more that a cheap D-III team

[DetroitFlyer]

As for the rumored alignment:

East: Morehead State, Iona, LaSalle, Jacksonville, Davidson, Campbell

West: Dayton, San Diego, Valparaiso, Butler, Drake

A potential future west member might be UDM, ( University of Detroit Mercy ).

As for format, with 11 teams it might remain round robin, play 10 PFL teams and one OOC game.... Not sure how that would work at first as I know teams have scheduling committments out into the future....

As I said, all rumors at this point, but apparently there is some basis in fact.

I'll have to do some homework to pull together enrollment and location information.

[bluehenbillk]

Why would LaSalle want to incur those travel costs? Outside of Iona everything is quite a haul...

[GannonFan]

That level of football.... As I said, go visit the football graveyard and then come talk to me about "that level of football".

Who is to say that LaSalle will not improve over the years if they get into a stable conference? One thing is absolutely certain, if they fold, they certainly will not get any better!

Apparently you just do not know what it is like to not have football on your campus, or worse yet be directly involved in trying to launch or bring back a program. I can assure you, the fledgling Xavier club football team would love to be playing at LaSalle's level! Same at Marquette!

I know things look bleak now, but who knows what the future holds....

All I'm saying is that the view from 5 minutes away is that LaSalle has very few chips to play to make themselves better. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the details around LaSalle but I don't see how they make themselves into a good football program - heck, I think they're not likely to be an average PFL team - the PFL is a huge step up for LaSalle. And ultimately, money matters and LaSalle is not in a good position in that regards either.

[DetroitFlyer]

Committment to upgrading football has been a significant issue relative to the former MAAC teams joining the PFL.

For private schools like Iona, Marist and LaSalle, the additional expenses for travel are far less than the additional expenses for scholarships, ( NEC or PL ). Even so, joining the PFL is going to require each school to upgrade their financial committment to football. I have to believe that if they are admitted to the PFL, they will have agreed to the increased financial commitment.

I'll take a quick stab at locations:

Morehead State - Eastern Kentucky

Iona - New York

LaSalle - Philadelphia

Jacksonville - Florida

Davidson - Charlotte NC area

Campbell - Fayetteville NC area

Dayton - Ohio

San Diego - California

Valparaiso - Northern Indiana

Butler - Indianapolis, IN

Drake - Des Moine, IA

[Seahawks Fan]

Why would LaSalle want to incur those travel costs? Outside of Iona everything is quite a haul...


What are their alternatives? xconfusedx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What are their alternatives? xconfusedx

The Patriot League. xtwocentsx Not saying I agree, but I really wonder.

[aceinthehole]

Committment to upgrading football has been a significant issue relative to the former MAAC teams joining the PFL.

For private schools like Iona, Marist and LaSalle, the additional expenses for travel are far less than the additional expenses for scholarships, ( NEC or PL ). Even so, joining the PFL is going to require each school to upgrade their financial committment to football. I have to believe that if they are admitted to the PFL, they will have agreed to the increased financial commitment.


I don't belive that for a minute until I see some real analysis. That is just speculation on your part.

IMO - flying to 3 or more games in a season, with hotels, per diem, and transportations costs are likely to be more than 30 equivs.

[Seahawks Fan]

The Patriot League. xtwocentsx Not saying I agree, but I really wonder.



The Patriot League would take LaSalle?

[DetroitFlyer]

Man, I have done this so many times....

30 scholarships at a typical private school: 30 X $35,000 = $1,050,000/yr.

I have been told that a plane trip for a football team runs around $60,000 per, ( including plane, hotel, meals, etc. ). If you have a better number, please let me know....

Say you make six plane trips a year: 6 X $60,000 = $360,000. MUCH less expensive than scholarships.

Oh you say, that is the list price for scholarships, it is not a "real" price....

OK, assume that the real price is 50% of the list price.... You are still looking at $525,000.00 per year versus $360,000.00 per year. So even a conservative estimate is still $165,000.00 more per year.

Scholarships at private schools are expensive, period. Travel is a bit expensive, but it is less than scholarships. Now, throw in the rumblings that the NEC wants to go to 45 scholarships or that the PL is at 50-55 scholarships and the math gets even more compelling!

[Dane96]

I don't belive that for a minute until I see some real analysis. That is just speculation on your part.

IMO - flying to 3 or more games in a season, with hotels, per diem, and transportations costs are likely to be more than 30 equivs.

Ahhh...come on ACE; I posited this argument in the past and got ZERO response from Detroit.

He seems to forget that Port Authority airport fees, transportation to the airport, etc...are additional expenses. Support staff...etc.

Additionally, we all know it doesn't cost the school the ACTUAL cost of a scholarship to give a ride. It is just money rotated around.

Bottom line- Except for the ON-FIELD success this year of IONA, none of three teams remotely support the program in a way to make NEC or PFL football a WINNING proposition for them.

This sounds a lot like St. John's when they joined the NEC...and we all know what happpened there. Marist needs to wake up and get its snobby nose out of the air and take what is offered to them. Waiting on the PL isn't helping the program up in Poughespsie.

The real bottom line: ALL THREE OF THESE TEAMS NEED TO START FUNDING THERE PROGRAM IF THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL. Marist and Iona have shots...I dont see the same for LaSalle.

[DFW HOYA]

Now, throw in the rumblings that ...the PL is at 50-55 scholarships and the math gets even more compelling!

Well, five of them, anyway.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The real bottom line: ALL THREE OF THESE TEAMS NEED TO START FUNDING THERE PROGRAM IF THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL. Marist and Iona have shots...I dont see the same for LaSalle.

You miss the crucial point about basketball. What if these league don't give an isht about football, but may want to get a piece of the "Big 5" in basketball instead? Do you bring LaSalle in all sports, and leave the football team in? LaSalle currently has close to zero appeal as a football school as has been mentioned before (no MAAC titles, scheduling D-III's, funding football on the cheap, etc). Where they do have *considerable* appeal is in basketball, and playing in the Patriot League would cut down their travel costs for all sports considerably.

[aceinthehole]

Man, I have done this so many times....

30 scholarships at a typical private school: 30 X $35,000 = $1,050,000/yr.

I have been told that a plane trip for a football team runs around $60,000 per, ( including plane, hotel, meals, etc. ). If you have a better number, please let me know....

Say you make six plane trips a year: 6 X $60,000 = $360,000. MUCH less expensive than scholarships.

Oh you say, that is the list price for scholarships, it is not a "real" price....

OK, assume that the real price is 50% of the list price.... You are still looking at $525,000.00 per year versus $360,000.00 per year. So even a conservative estimate is still $165,000.00 more per year.

Scholarships at private schools are expensive, period. Travel is a bit expensive, but it is less than scholarships. Now, throw in the rumblings that the NEC wants to go to 45 scholarships or that the PL is at 50-55 scholarships and the math gets even more compelling!

Scholarships are really a "revenue loss" on their balance sheet, they are not direct cash outlays.

For example, if Joe Blow goes to LaSalle and plays football right now he pays about $25k in tuition. If LaSalle gives him a scholarship, they don't pay themselves, they lose out on Joe's tuition.

So unless the university owns a airline and hotel chain, then transportation and loding cost are direct cash expenses.

[aceinthehole]

You miss the crucial point about basketball. What if these league don't give an isht about football, but may want to get a piece of the "Big 5" in basketball instead? Do you bring LaSalle in all sports, and leave the football team in? LaSalle currently has close to zero appeal as a football school as has been mentioned before (no MAAC titles, scheduling D-III's, funding football on the cheap, etc). Where they do have *considerable* appeal is in basketball, and playing in the Patriot League would cut down their travel costs for all sports considerably.

Sorry, wile the PL hoops is improving and the A-10 is on the decline, its a no brainer for LaSalle. If that's the case why doesn't Fordham play all sporst in the PL?

No way the Explorers give up a home games with Temple, St. Joes, X, Charlotte, GW, Dayton for American, Army and Navy. The exposure and revenue of the A-10 far outways any savings of the PL. LaSalle is a hoops school and they aren't going to the PL to save football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorry, wile the PL hoops is improving and the A-10 is on the decline, its a no brainer for LaSalle. If that's the case why doesn't Fordham play all sporst in the PL?

No way the Explorers give up a home games with Temple, St. Joes, X, Charlotte, GW, Dayton for American, Army and Navy. The exposure and revenue of the A-10 far outways any savings of the PL. LaSalle is a hoops school and they aren't going to the PL to save football.

As a "Big 5" school, they'd still have one game with Temple & St Joe's a year, and wouldn't have to travel to North Carolina and central Ohio every year. And don't count out the possibility of Fordham getting their arm twisted to join the Patriot League again.

The decline of the A-10 is something I'm watching with great interest. I'm not saying that LaSalle and Fordham would join the PL in all sports, but I am wondering if that's what gets people excited in the Patriot League office these days.

[Go...gate]

As a "Big 5" school, they'd still have one game with Temple & St Joe's a year, and wouldn't have to travel to North Carolina and central Ohio every year. And don't count out the possibility of Fordham getting their arm twisted to join the Patriot League again.

The decline of the A-10 is something I'm watching with great interest. I'm not saying that LaSalle and Fordham would join the PL in all sports, but I am wondering if that's what gets people excited in the Patriot League office these days.

The PL would be very happy if Fordham ever re-joined for all sports. Beyond that, the only MAAC member that appears to have a shot is Marist, which picked a great time to build a new stadium but a bad time to have a sub-par season.

Note on American: They were accepted because of their assurances they would stop JUCO transfers and would follow the Academic Index. Also, AU saw membership in the PL as a part of their own long-term strategic plan to raise their academic profile and selectivity while reducing their overall undergraduate population. They have raised a lot of money with this in mind. Marist would be expected to do the same thing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL would be very happy if Fordham ever re-joined for all sports. Beyond that, the only MAAC member that appears to have a shot is Marist, which picked a great time to build a new stadium but a bad time to have a sub-par season.

Note on American: They were accepted because of their assurances they would stop JUCO transfers and would follow the Academic Index. Also, AU saw membership in the PL as a part of their own long-term strategic plan to raise their academic profile and selectivity while reducing their overall undergraduate population. They have raised a lot of money with this in mind. Marist would be expected to do the same thing.

Think that Fordham and LaSalle could defect from the A-10 in all sports as a package deal? I understand that LaSalle football would only be a small consideration in the deal, but in basketball you'd have a potentially powerful mid-major conference with Holy Cross, Bucknell, LaSalle and Fordham. Think of the TV possibilities, too.

Of course, this doesn't really help football at all, which would make football be a very second consideration in the expansion plans... xsmhx

[Dane96]

You miss the crucial point about basketball. What if these league don't give an isht about football, but may want to get a piece of the "Big 5" in basketball instead? Do you bring LaSalle in all sports, and leave the football team in? LaSalle currently has close to zero appeal as a football school as has been mentioned before (no MAAC titles, scheduling D-III's, funding football on the cheap, etc). Where they do have *considerable* appeal is in basketball, and playing in the Patriot League would cut down their travel costs for all sports considerably.

Come on now- You are stepping into my wheelhouse when you are talking college hoops. Name me the last year that LASALLE was relevant in hoops. Dr. Giannani is a great guy...but he can't turn that program around either.

Believe me, aside from tradition, LaSalle has nothing in common with the Big 5. In fact it is sad that Drexel can't get in...much better team than LaSalle.

LaSalle's days of being an eastern mid-major power have long...long passed. I would argue that most teams in the PL are better off than LaSalle. In fact, the rumblings out of the A-Ten last year were that Fordham, Duquense, LaSalle, St. Bonaventure...and another (I can't remember), were put on "un-official" notice to step it up. The Dukes get a rogue coach...nice job there (sarcasm). St. Bonaventure...bless them...they are trying. LaSalle...not sure what they are going to do.

Where I do agree it to be a win-win all the way around is FORDHAM.

I do think the A-Ten as we know it is bye-bye in a few years. This goes back to the monster re-shuffles. I see Bing, BU, UVM, UMBC, and others as candidates to a new hoop-centric conference.

But we are getting beyond the scope of the argument here. Bottom line: LaSalle isn't an attractive school right now.

LaSalle would be lucky to get into the PL...not vice-versa. Here is all you need to know about the state of LaSalle hoops:
Explorers Picked 13th in A-10 Pre-Season Poll

[seahawkfan2007]

The MAAC is obviously over and the Pioneer Conference logistically has never made alot of sense. I don't see Marist or LaSalle as a fit for the PL. A potential opportunity for the NEC (the MAAC schools and Pioneeer schools) would be an expansion to 16 teams (for Football) with East and West divisions.

East
Albany
Bryant
CCSU
Marist
Monmouth
Iona
Sacred Heart
Wagner

West
Butler
Dayton
Duquesne
Drake
Morehead St.
St. Francis (Pa)
Robert Morris
Valpo

East and West teams would play everyone in their division and play two teams from the other division allowing for two other OOC games. The two division winners would play for the conference championship with an auto bid on the line.

To account for the others:
San Diego to the Great West Conference
Davidson and Jacksonville to the Big South
LaSalle-Independent

[mainejeff]

Husson College of Bangor, Maine beat LaSalle last season......'nuff said.

[Seawolf97]

I suspect Lasalle will go the way of St Peters sooner rather than laterxnodx

[Dane96]

The MAAC is obviously over and the Pioneer Conference logistically has never made alot of sense. I don't see Marist or LaSalle as a fit for the PL. A potential opportunity for the NEC (the MAAC schools and Pioneeer schools) would be an expansion to 16 teams (for Football) with East and West divisions.

East
Albany
Bryant
CCSU
Marist
Monmouth
Iona
Sacred Heart
Wagner

West
Butler
Dayton
Duquesne
Drake
Morehead St.
St. Francis (Pa)
Robert Morris
Valpo

East and West teams would play everyone in their division and play two teams from the other division allowing for two other OOC games. The two division winners would play for the conference championship with an auto bid on the line.

To account for the others:
San Diego to the Great West Conference
Davidson and Jacksonville to the Big South
LaSalle-Independent

You forget about that little thing known as scholarships? More than half of your 16 won't, or can't, afford scholarships.xeyebrowx

[dgreco]

As for the rumored alignment:

East: Morehead State, Iona, LaSalle, Jacksonville, Davidson, Campbell

West: Dayton, San Diego, Valparaiso, Butler, Drake
information.
EAST
Iona
La Salle
Marist
Jacksonville
Davidson
Campbell

WEST
Dayton
Morehead State
San Diego
Valpo
Butler
Drake

and this is the map. It is tough with the midwest teams, really USD should just go schollie, but yea this is how I see it working...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v354/grecodg3/PioneerFootballLeagueMap.jpg


I don't belive that for a minute until I see some real analysis. That is just speculation on your part.

IMO - flying to 3 or more games in a season, with hotels, per diem, and transportations costs are likely to be more than 30 equivs.
It has been said, but schollies are revenue loses on a balance sheet, they do not effect the school really. Most likely the schools tuition will go up to cover those numbers anyway, now travel is a key expense because it needs to be paid it can be written off.


You miss the crucial point about basketball. What if these league don't give an isht about football, but may want to get a piece of the "Big 5" in basketball instead? Do you bring LaSalle in all sports, and leave the football team in? LaSalle currently has close to zero appeal as a football school as has been mentioned before (no MAAC titles, scheduling D-III's, funding football on the cheap, etc). Where they do have *considerable* appeal is in basketball, and playing in the Patriot League would cut down their travel costs for all sports considerably.

Is it worth really losing academic reputation to admit lasalle to get in on the big 5. Marist barely fits the mold, clearly bryant didnt. I could never see the PL adding lasalle, I doubt they will even add marist. It seems to me the PL is hoping a team like fordham jumps ship. With all the URI rumblings and some other teams going through tough times. Charlotte looking to move, Richmond possibly moving etc.. It seems that PL wants that to shake out and fordham fall into their laps.

[BobbyMo]

The MAAC is obviously over and the Pioneer Conference logistically has never made alot of sense. I don't see Marist or LaSalle as a fit for the PL. A potential opportunity for the NEC (the MAAC schools and Pioneeer schools) would be an expansion to 16 teams (for Football) with East and West divisions.

East
Albany
Bryant
CCSU
Marist
Monmouth
Iona
Sacred Heart
Wagner

West
Butler
Dayton
Duquesne
Drake
Morehead St.
St. Francis (Pa)
Robert Morris
Valpo

East and West teams would play everyone in their division and play two teams from the other division allowing for two other OOC games. The two division winners would play for the conference championship with an auto bid on the line.

To account for the others:
San Diego to the Great West Conference
Davidson and Jacksonville to the Big South
LaSalle-Independent

Though it is doubtful, I think that it is a great solution. xthumbsupx

[seahawkfan2007]

Regarding scholly's, it's really only an issue of shifting grants to scholarships. Financially, it's not much more than a wash for any of these institutions.

[Seawolf97]

I think the NEC would distance itself from Iona and Marist unless they commit to scholarship football. You picked up two good programs with Duquesne and Bryant who maybe willing to go to the 45 scholarship level once they get their feet on the ground in D1 . I dont think you would see that from Iona or Marist anytime soon. As for Lasalle I dont know-they cant drop down to D2 because of basketball and as an FCS independent I dont think they cut it.

[Dane96]

Regarding scholly's, it's really only an issue of shifting grants to scholarships. Financially, it's not much more than a wash for any of these institutions.

This would be true except for one problem: these schools do not offer grants--- not one!

[DFW HOYA]

I really don't see why people are dumping on LaSalle. It's got the smallest budget in I-AA, so if it can build that budget, success can follow.

[danefan]

Why can't Lasalle play an independent schedule and schedule all DIII teams. They would basically be a DIII school that wasn't eligible for the playoffs. I don't think there is any NCAA regulation against that is there?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is it worth really losing academic reputation to admit lasalle to get in on the big 5. Marist barely fits the mold, clearly bryant didnt. I could never see the PL adding lasalle, I doubt they will even add marist. It seems to me the PL is hoping a team like fordham jumps ship. With all the URI rumblings and some other teams going through tough times. Charlotte looking to move, Richmond possibly moving etc.. It seems that PL wants that to shake out and fordham fall into their laps.

Boy, does THAT ever have the ring of truth to it. Of course, the PL has been waiting for that for years. The key word his is waiting... not being proactive in adding new members or aggressively pursuing them.

There is precedent for taking a school that isn't top 1% academically: the whole "American experiment" in hoops where we took American University in order to stabilize the league. American says they are trying to get to where the rest of the league is academically, but they're not close yet.

But wouldn't it make sense for Fordham to jump ship to the PL with another school for basketball? And wouldn't LaSalle be a logical choice? Don't underestimate the cachet "Big 5"..l. It still holds a lot of sway in the Philadelphia area, even if the times of the "L" train and Penn basketball dominance on the national scene are very much in the past.

[dgreco]

Boy, does THAT ever have the ring of truth to it. Of course, the PL has been waiting for that for years. The key word his is waiting... not being proactive in adding new members or aggressively pursuing them.

There is precedent for taking a school that isn't top 1% academically: the whole "American experiment" in hoops where we took American University in order to stabilize the league. American says they are trying to get to where the rest of the league is academically, but they're not close yet.

But wouldn't it make sense for Fordham to jump ship to the PL with another school for basketball? And wouldn't LaSalle be a logical choice? Don't underestimate the cachet "Big 5"..l. It still holds a lot of sway in the Philadelphia area, even if the times of the "L" train and Penn basketball dominance on the national scene are very much in the past.

If they could land another from the Big 5, while La Salle would make sense from a football standpoint I do not completely see it. I think Fordham should make the move, I do not think the A10 offers that much more to tham for staying.

[rmutv]

The Northeast Conference will not be merging, abandoning, or reshaping football other than MAYBE Albany bolting for a different fit.

CCSU, Monmouth, Robert Morris, etc all are in as full members, and it is doubtful that a full member would be allowed to leave for just one sport like football. Maybe the smaller sports, but not the money-makers.

[blur2005]

This is all great news for San Diego and Dayton - hey, if your conference strength isn't terribly crappy already, add these teams and debate adding LaSalle.

[Dane96]

AWESOME POST.

At least the NEC is adding the #24 ranked DII team. Heck, they haven't even offered scholarships yet and Bryant is that good.

NEC adds: Duquense and Byrant
PFL adds: Iona, LaSalle, Marist

SOS goes up in the NEC...and way down in the PFL.

[BearsCountry]

I wouldnt be suprised in a few years to see the PFL split, with Atlantic Sun taking over as the non-scholly league of the South.

[UAalum72]

Why can't Lasalle play an independent schedule and schedule all DIII teams. They would basically be a DIII school that wasn't eligible for the playoffs. I don't think there is any NCAA regulation against that is there?
Yes there is. A Division I football program must play a minimum of nine games with at least half against other D-I opponents.

I don't know what action the NCAA could take, except that their games wouldn't count as D-I for their opponents, possibly not for D-III opponents either. It might have to operate as a club program.

Possible exception if there aren't enough opponents within 500 miles, but that doesn't apply to Philadelphia. Also doesn't apply during the first year a program is established.

[DetroitFlyer]

Iona is certainly a decent program, on a par with Bryant. Campbell is an unknown, but as a first year program I would not expect them to be all that competitive. LaSalle, well they are not so good....

No doubt that with Josh Johnson leaving USD, Scotty P leaving Drake, Kevin Hoyng leaving Dayton, and the addition of the new teams, the PFL will probably take a step back next season. I'm not worried longer term, however. Butler, Valparaiso, and Jacksonville will all be stronger next year. Davidson has become a very solid PFL team. Dayton, Drake and San Diego will be allright. I think longer term, the PFL is going to be OK.

[Franks Tanks]

Iona is certainly a decent program, on a par with Bryant. Campbell is an unknown, but as a first year program I would not expect them to be all that competitive. LaSalle, well they are not so good....

No doubt that with Josh Johnson leaving USD, Scotty P leaving Drake, Kevin Hoyng leaving Dayton, and the addition of the new teams, the PFL will probably take a step back next season. I'm not worried longer term, however. Butler, Valparaiso, and Jacksonville will all be stronger next year. Davidson has become a very solid PFL team. Dayton, Drake and San Diego will be allright. I think longer term, the PFL is going to be OK.

Actually Bryant is probably better than Iona. A top 25 D-II program is better than a absolute bottom of the barrell FCS team like Iona.

[lizrdgizrd]

It has been said, but schollies are revenue loses on a balance sheet, they do not effect the school really. Most likely the schools tuition will go up to cover those numbers anyway, now travel is a key expense because it needs to be paid it can be written off.
But what, really is the marginal cost for 30 additional students (assuming 30 scholarships)? If they live on campus that's the cost of 30 beds and whatever food they eat. It doesn't actually cost anything to add them to classes (unless you're really concerned over student/teacher ratio) and you've already got training facilities, so you're not looking at a whole lot of true cost.

[gophoenix]

But what, really is the marginal cost for 30 additional students (assuming 30 scholarships)? If they live on campus that's the cost of 30 beds and whatever food they eat. It doesn't actually cost anything to add them to classes (unless you're really concerned over student/teacher ratio) and you've already got training facilities, so you're not looking at a whole lot of true cost.

It costs for Title IX though....

[DFW HOYA]

But what, really is the marginal cost for 30 additional students (assuming 30 scholarships)? If they live on campus that's the cost of 30 beds and whatever food they eat. It doesn't actually cost anything to add them to classes (unless you're really concerned over student/teacher ratio) and you've already got training facilities, so you're not looking at a whole lot of true cost.

That doesn't work at all schools. Many private schools charge the full cost of a scholarship against the atheltic program budget based on its accounting policies.

Other schools have enrollment caps where adding 30 students may not be as easy as it is with a school using a more open enrollment system.

[lizrdgizrd]

It costs for Title IX though....
Mostly more marginal costs for more athletes unless you're forced to start whole new programs. xnodx

[lizrdgizrd]

That doesn't work at all schools. Many private schools charge the full cost of a scholarship against the atheltic program budget based on its accounting policies.

Other schools have enrollment caps where adding 30 students may not be as easy as it is with a school using a more open enrollment system.
That's just more accounting, the actual cost to the school is the marginal cost of the additional students.

[dgreco]

That's just more accounting, the actual cost to the school is the marginal cost of the additional students.

I agree it's all marginal. The teachers are in contracts, so it doesn't matter. The school has the seats and plans for overfill (transfers happen often). Title IX. Look at how many schools comply? Not many, the ones who do are schools that do not offer football or at least scholarship football. All it does it make the ledger a little longer and "suspicious" if you want to say that. Really it doesn't effect the school. The schools make enough revenue through advertising to cover most sports. The reason schools use the excuse to drop football with title ix and to much money for schollies is BS. Schools have endowments for a worst case scenario, and most schools drop because of lack of interest. No programs really pull a profit for the actual sport, but it makes up in other places. If you do not have interest that is where you are really hurt. Thats why I think a lasalle will drop the program and won't get the PL invite.

[Maverick]

"I agree it's all marginal. The teachers are in contracts, so it doesn't matter. The school has the seats and plans for overfill (transfers happen often). Title IX. Look at how many schools comply? Not many, the ones who do are schools that do not offer football or at least scholarship football. All it does it make the ledger a little longer and "suspicious" if you want to say that. Really it doesn't effect the school. The schools make enough revenue through advertising to cover most sports. The reason schools use the excuse to drop football with title ix and to much money for schollies is BS. Schools have endowments for a worst case scenario, and most schools drop because of lack of interest. No programs really pull a profit for the actual sport, but it makes up in other places. If you do not have interest that is where you are really hurt. Thats why I think a lasalle will drop the program and won't get the PL invite."

dgreco,
Please be so kind as to list those schools you are aware of that do not comply with Title IX. What is the basis for such an idiotic comment? Is it because you think so little of Title IX? It is a federal civil rights law that has quite a bit of power. Obviously you have never worked in college athletics or been around athletic administration who understand the law and the impact of failing to comply. Add to that your simple brilliance in a statement that "schools make enough revenue through advertising to cover most sports" is based on your experience working where or study of college athletic finance. Hence the equally stupid, "No programs really pull a profit for the actual sport, but it makes up in other places." shows that the sports don't make money but that they make money elsewhere so as to generate the revenue. How many programs actually cover the cost of the sport of football or actually generate revenue to share with other sports at the FCS level? From that vast knowledge you seem to profess, enlighten us!

As an old coach of mine once said to a "fan" who was waxing eloquent on how the team could be better coached, "Mister, you must be talking out of your ass because your mouth should know better than to say such things".

[dgreco]

"I agree it's all marginal. The teachers are in contracts, so it doesn't matter. The school has the seats and plans for overfill (transfers happen often). Title IX. Look at how many schools comply? Not many, the ones who do are schools that do not offer football or at least scholarship football. All it does it make the ledger a little longer and "suspicious" if you want to say that. Really it doesn't effect the school. The schools make enough revenue through advertising to cover most sports. The reason schools use the excuse to drop football with title ix and to much money for schollies is BS. Schools have endowments for a worst case scenario, and most schools drop because of lack of interest. No programs really pull a profit for the actual sport, but it makes up in other places. If you do not have interest that is where you are really hurt. Thats why I think a lasalle will drop the program and won't get the PL invite."

dgreco,
Please be so kind as to list those schools you are aware of that do not comply with Title IX. What is the basis for such an idiotic comment? Is it because you think so little of Title IX? It is a federal civil rights law that has quite a bit of power. Obviously you have never worked in college athletics or been around athletic administration who understand the law and the impact of failing to comply. Add to that your simple brilliance in a statement that "schools make enough revenue through advertising to cover most sports" is based on your experience working where or study of college athletic finance. Hence the equally stupid, "No programs really pull a profit for the actual sport, but it makes up in other places." shows that the sports don't make money but that they make money elsewhere so as to generate the revenue. How many programs actually cover the cost of the sport of football or actually generate revenue to share with other sports at the FCS level? From that vast knowledge you seem to profess, enlighten us!

As an old coach of mine once said to a "fan" who was waxing eloquent on how the team could be better coached, "Mister, you must be talking out of your ass because your mouth should know better than to say such things".

It is not because I think little of it t all. Bryant is actually an A rated Title IX school. I will give you the link and look at how many schools have failing grades for title IX. So don't make an idiotic statement and accuse me before asking for evidence.

The research has to do with who is playing, who is following the Title IX restrictions and change ratios in participation etc. Trends and causal relationships make this interesting.

http://wsf-staging.mediapolis.com/cgi-bin/iowa/issues/disc/reportcard.html

[Dane96]

Maverick--

dgreco is correct. Many schools do not comply to the letter of the law with Title IX-- Way too many loopholes. For example, schools start a "separate" athletics department for women, run solely by itself. Example- Tennessee. Now, with the amount of money Tennessee spends on football, do you actually think the $$ for $$ value equates to the same?! In short, no, it does not.

However, the "appearance" of compliance (e.g. the separate dept.) gives huge credibility. Who is investigating a school who sets up an "equal" dept?

Additionally, schools often fund fringe club sports under the athletic dept auspices instead of the recreation dept, to comply. Finally, schools are actually looking at MARCHING BANDS as a form of compliance. The basis for this is cheerleading...an both have yet to be challenged in a court as non-compliant.

While I disagree with the rest of dgreco's statements, the Title IX is pretty much dead on.

[blur2005]

Maverick--

dgreco is correct. Many schools do not comply to the letter of the law with Title IX-- Way too many loopholes. For example, schools start a "separate" athletics department for women, run solely by itself. Example- Tennessee. Now, with the amount of money Tennessee spends on football, do you actually think the $$ for $$ value equates to the same?! In short, no, it does not.

However, the "appearance" of compliance (e.g. the separate dept.) gives huge credibility. Who is investigating a school who sets up an "equal" dept?

Additionally, schools often fund fringe club sports under the athletic dept auspices instead of the recreation dept, to comply. Finally, schools are actually looking at MARCHING BANDS as a form of compliance. The basis for this is cheerleading...an both have yet to be challenged in a court as non-compliant.

While I disagree with the rest of dgreco's statements, the Title IX is pretty much dead on.
Hmm, Plessy v. Ferguson seems to apply here, "separate but equal."

[Dane96]

Look at you Blur-- Nice! If you are of Rehnquist mold, you believe that the majority will always determine the rights of the minority-- He agreed with the Plessy decision.

Ironically, Brown vs. Board of Ed is under fire now...being used in reverse by the Supreme Court. Just read some "lawyer porn" on it; really interesting the direction the court is going (5-4-- Guess who the 5th vote was).

[DFW HOYA]

Title IX is bad law, period. It is arbitrarily applied to athletics when the law itself has nothing to do with athletics, only educational institutions in general receiving federal aid.

Does a school violate Title IX if its marching band is disproportionate? How about its cheerleaders? Its training staff?

Or how about its faculty? THERE's where the fireworks would fly upon the first legitimate court challenge. xreadx

[danefan]

Title IX is bad law, period. It is arbitrarily applied to athletics when the law itself has nothing to do with athletics, only educational institutions in general receiving federal aid.

Does a school violate Title IX if its marching band is disproportionate? How about its cheerleaders? Its training staff?

Or how about its faculty? THERE's where the fireworks would fly upon the first legitimate court challenge. xreadx

Title IX is the Viagra of laws......xcoffeex

Explanation: Title IX is applied "off label"....Title IX is intended to provide equal access to education. It is now applied to provide equal access to athletics as well as used to prevent and punish sexual harrasment in educational settings. Viagra was devloped to help men suffering chest pains from heart disease and is now applied to....well you know what its used for.

Moral of the story....find a law and make it work for what you need it to work for.

[blur2005]

Look at you Blur-- Nice! If you are of Rehnquist mold, you believe that the majority will always determine the rights of the minority-- He agreed with the Plessy decision.

Ironically, Brown vs. Board of Ed is under fire now...being used in reverse by the Supreme Court. Just read some "lawyer porn" on it; really interesting the direction the court is going (5-4-- Guess who the 5th vote was).
I might go to law school but that had nothing to do with the post; it was just a pretty obvious analogy.

I'm also not of the Rehnquist mold. I like Earl Warren.

[Dane96]

I know it was obvious...just having fun my friend!

[Husky Alum]

That doesn't work at all schools. Many private schools charge the full cost of a scholarship against the atheltic program budget based on its accounting policies.

Other schools have enrollment caps where adding 30 students may not be as easy as it is with a school using a more open enrollment system.

Finally someone who gets it. DFW, you a CPA? ;-)

Northeastern charges the athletic department full fare for every scholarship. That's not an accounting policy, it's a budgetary policy, accounting for NFP's say you record gross revenue, less scholarships to get net revenue on an incoe statement.

Northeastern has a quasi hard cap on enrollment, and a bed shortage on campus, so football scholarships are a true "cost".

Now I debate with our AD all the time that the Athletic Department gets charged full fare for a scholarship, while the average cost of that scholarship to the school is only 60%, as the average student gets 40% of their tuition off in some form of scholarship, or aid.

So NU's 63 FB scholarships cost the Athletic Department roughly $3 million, when if you took those 63 scholarships and "sold" them to "regular" students, NU would only collect $2.0 million in tuition.

Interesting, no?

I should write a dissertation on the true "cost" of athletic scholarships at a school - because I explain it on these boards like twice a year.