LFN: What the Academic Index has wrought?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Folks are upset that I mentioned the following in my blog last night on my "Around The Horn" in the Patriot League:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com


Am I the only person that sees that the teams with the lowest "virtual floors" of the Academic Index - Fordham and Holy Cross - are now the dominant forces in football in the conference? Could that be in part why Lafayette and Colgate are fighting for their playoff lives, and Lehigh is eliminated? I can't say for sure, but it's one of those "Things that make you go, hmmmmm..."

The "anonymous" comments have been on fire, but I think they largely miss the point. They talk about the history of the league, and that I'm casting "aspersions" on the admissions standards of the rest of the league. Simply, they're wrong. Here's the piece I wrote about the AI in the offseason:

http://www.collegesportingnews.com/article.asp?articleid=85798


The Patriot League ... does have a "presumptive floor" below which an individual school could not realistically recruit. Using SAT scores as a simplistic example, let’s say a Patriot League school has an average incoming SAT score of 1350. In order to have the football team’s incoming class have the same average SAT score, you could recruit an athlete with an 1100 SAT – but you’d also have to have a kid with a 1600 SAT to balance him out. In this example, the "presumptive floor" for this student is an 1100 SAT score. (By definition, this number would be one standard deviation below the average AI score.) Although it would be extremely difficult, you could theoretically recruit him.

...

Private colleges and universities across the board have seen their academics profiles get, on average, better and better in recent years. This is making it even more challenging to find Division I athletes that fit this new academic mold in AI leagues. And although the Patriot League’s academic reputation is getting better, they still have a long way to go to get to the prestige of the Ivy League – if it’s even possible.

Lafayette head coach Frank Tavani was interviewed in February by The Morning Call about this subject, and his frustration is evident. "It's more difficult for us because we aren't cloaked in that magical Ivy League aura and reputation," Tavani said. "We're fighting for the same athletes and it's highly competitive. Quite frankly, there aren't that many players of this caliber that carry those kinds of credentials and academic standards. In the end, because the pool has gotten smaller because of the increased standards, we are diluting the talent level of the league."

Confirming this impression, "What used to be a 1200 board score is now a 1280 board score," one Patriot League official told me. "As a result, the qualified pool of athletes shrinks because your academic profile continues to increase – and the competition for these kids is higher than ever. Every institution in the country wants that scholar-athlete. Merit scholar, top athlete, and can play at the Division I level – everybody wants those kids."

...

No school has a smaller window for recruits in this system than Georgetown. In 2005, the freshman class averaged more than a 1450 SAT score – and had, by far, the toughest AI in the entire league. No wonder then that Georgetown has struggled to field football teams – and to reach the same number of football equivalencies as other schools -- that can compete for Patriot League titles. If all Patriot League schools are getting squeezed, no school is more squeezed than Georgetown due to the rising standards.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the teams which have the biggest pool of athletes to recruit from are now the dominant faces of the league - with juniors and sophomores highlighting their units.

Using average SAT as a general indicator of AI:

Holy Cross: 1280
Fordham: 1186

Lafayette: 1285

Lehigh: 1303
Colgate: 1347
Georgetown: N/A but over 1400
Bucknell: N/A but average ACT 28

Pools of athletes are not the only reason great programs get started, but Fordham and Holy Cross (and Lafayette) have an advantage over the rest of the league since they can target athletes that the rest of the league cannot. Discuss.

[crusader11]

Hmmmm, so because HC is 23 points below the Lehigh SAT average it makes it harder to get a kid into the school. Sounds like LFN is looking for reasons to explain why Lehigh is so bad this year. Plus, HC is SAT optional, so those statistics may be skewed.

[Franks Tanks]

Hmmmm, so because HC is 23 points below the Lehigh SAT average it makes it harder to get a kid into the school. Sounds like LFN is looking for reasons to explain why Lehigh is so bad this year. Plus, HC is SAT optional, so those statistics may be skewed.

Ya seriously LFN, another lets apoligize for why Lehigh is mediocre this year article. Wow Lehigh's SAT is 18 points higher than Lafayette and 23 over the Cross, that is like what 2-3 additional questions right. Such a smal difference should have no impact on the ability to recruit athletes. Bucknell's SAT's are probably slightly higher than Lafayette's and probbaly right about where Lehigh is. Not a stastically significant difference when it comes to admitting athletes. Whats next as essay about how recruits arent going to Lehigh because of the ugly brown uni's?

[LehighFan11]

Hmmmm, so because HC is 23 points below the Lehigh SAT average it makes it harder to get a kid into the school. Sounds like LFN is looking for reasons to explain why Lehigh is so bad this year. Plus, HC is SAT optional, so those statistics may be skewed.

Optional? Are you sure about that? All schools require SAT or ACT and since Holy Cross is not in the midwest or south i doubt they require ACT over SAT. Now 18 or 23 points are alot, it can easily decide if you get in or not if we are talkiing a jump from 1200 to 1225. Is this the main reason we see HC and Fordham winning? No. Is it a possibility it helped get 3-5 players accepted each year? Sure.

[Fordham]

There's no doubt the lower AI helps us in recruiting and it puts G-town at a disadvantage ... certainly moreso than any other PL school. Fortunately, by any academic measurement/ranking, we've been improving and I really believe Father McShane has us headed in the right direction.

That said, LFN - two seasons ago you guys were in the thick of things at the top of the conference and we were cellar dwellers. Tell me what has changed to both of our AI's relative to all the other schools in the PL that has so quickly put you guys at this disadvantage and made us able to exploit ours? It begs the question of why the AI wasn't as big an issue when Lehigh was coached by Pete Lembo but it has now become one when you're coached by Andy Coen?

I'm doing my best to understand the position Lehigh fans are in as you guys are clearly as disillusioned as I've seen any PL fans since I've been on here and I guess that's what's leading you to rip on us on your own board and now here. I guess if I look at things as a glass 1/2 full guy I should simply say that I truly am unbelievably impressed at the class and respect shown by pretty much every Colgate and Lafayette fan that I've interacted with following both of our surprise wins over their programs since they could be making the same types of comments/excuses but have chosen not to. "Kudos", Gate & Pard fans, 'kudos'. xbowx

[CrusaderBob]

Chuck,

Normally I like your stuff, and you don't say it but you certainly imply a lot with your comment about the AI.

It's not the AI. Sports go in cycles. The cycle was very long for the PL Big 3 to dominate in part because of fund raising. I can't speak to Fordham, but when HC hired Gilmore, they started to allocate more resources to football. With Gilmore's hiring, HC finally started athletics fund raising. Only in football at first and, starting in the '06-'07 academic year, all sports.

So …

Holy Cross hires it’s first head coach with a significant track record of recruiting non-scholarship football players (Vaas & Dan Allen didn't have that) and begins fundraising for football. The program improves every year over a 4 year period to the point of challenging for a league championship.

I can't say for sure, but it's one of those "Things that make you go, hmmmmm..."

[Franks Tanks]

Optional? Are you sure about that? All schools require SAT or ACT and since Holy Cross is not in the midwest or south i doubt they require ACT over SAT. Now 18 or 23 points are alot, it can easily decide if you get in or not if we are talkiing a jump from 1200 to 1225. Is this the main reason we see HC and Fordham winning? No. Is it a possibility it helped get 3-5 players accepted each year? Sure.

You are incorrect, many schools dont require a SAT--In fact Lafayette didnt in the late 90's but now do. Also 25 points may make a difference for a regular student but not an athlete who have specific admission slots. Lets put it this was in 1998 when I was being recruited I had a 1200. I was accepted or the coaches supported my admission at Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, Towson and Army. I was rejected by the Ivies and Georgetown, so I feel the only school in our legaue that can make the AI argument is G-town as I have went through the process with a 1200 score and these are real results.

[DetroitFlyer]

Fordham's success could not possibly be attributed to good coaching, good recruiting, and good execution.... There must be some reason that they have an advantage....

The real problem here is that LFN cannot stand the fact that Dayton defeated Fordham and his team could not....

Yeah, it must all those low academic performers that Dayton allows to pay their own way to Dayton that give us such an advantage over the PL, (LOL)!! By the way, which FCS team has the most Academic All Americans?

Here is some UD information that clearly shows the advantage we used in recruiting to defeat Fordham:

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/101207aaa.html

GREAT GRAD RATES UD's 96 scores in the 2006 GSR (Graduation Success Rate) is the fifth-best in NCAA Division I football. Fellow PFL member Davidson was atop the rankings with 100, followed by Navy and William & Mary (98), and Furman (97). Boston College and UD were next at 96. Other schools with APR's above 90 were Bucknell (95), Stanford (94), Air Force, Duke and Villanova (93). In the new individual GSR scores released this week, Flyer football scored a 94.

GOTTA PLAY SMART The University of Dayton placed a league-best 14 players on the 2006 Academic All-Pioneer Football League team. It was the fourth straight year UD had the most players on the PFL Academic team. Since the league's origin in 1993, over a quarter (138 of 509) of the PFL All-Academic selections have been Flyers. UD also had 64 players on the PFL Academic Honor Roll (3.0 GPA or better). That was 24 better than the next-best school.

HITTING THE BOOKS The Dayton football program has produced 13 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-Americans since the 2000 season. That's most at any level of college football. Safety Brandon Cramer was named a First Team ESPN The Magazine Academic All-America in 2006, after being named to the second team in 2005. In the history of the Academic All-America program, UD has had 45 football Academic All-Americans. Among schools currently playing Division I football, only Nebraska (81) and Notre Dame (46) have had more. UD has had at least one football player named Academic All-American in 15 of the last 16 years. UD had five players named to the 2005 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-District Team, the most of any school in the district for the fifth straight year. Twelve Flyers were nominated for Academic All-America in each of the last four years.

THE CREAM DOES RISE TO THE TOP UD's 2007 football roster includes a number of what some might call "over-achievers." Forty-nine current Flyers were in the National Honor Society, and 99 were team captains in some sport. Twenty-six captained two different teams, and 13 were three-sport captains in high school.



Sounds like excuse making to me....

I'll admit, however, it is fun to see the PL folks arguing over SAT scores relative to football success....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Random thoughts:

* LehighFan11, yes, the SAT is optional now at Holy Cross. However, realistically most kids looking to be admitted at "most selective" schools already do take the SAT, so they do submit them anyway.

* There is zero doubt about the fact that it is easier to get a recruit into a school if their AI "bar" is lower. Teams with lower "virtual floors" can recruit more athletes than ones with higher floors. Therefore, their pool is larger.

Think of it this way. Any Patriot League school can recruit a kid with 1500 SAT's. Only a few can recruit a kid with 1100 SAT's. That's not to say that they're not smart or cannot excel at any Patriot League school - as a matter of fact, I'd argue that they absolutely can and should be admitted. But the way the AI is structured, some schools can recruit athletes that cannot be recruited at others.

* What happened with the AI's? The academic profile of every Patriot League school has risen sharply over the past 2-3 years. Coach Tavani and folks in the Patriot League office have admitted as much. The ones near the top have AI numbers that are close to Harvard. And all Ivy League schools, with their modified banding system, can get athletes that can't be recruited by Lehigh and Colgate due to the structure of the AI.

Raising the academic profile 100 points over two years can have a devastating effect on recruiting. I'd argue that we're seeing the results of that the past two years. And it's not just Lehigh: Colgate has also been devastated.

* Having said that, the AI is not the only reason why programs are good. Of course you need great coaches, good fundraising, good relationships with the admissions office, etc. Holy Cross and Fordham's success this year was not simply built on the AI, nor did I mean to imply that. But I do think it is a significant factor.

[The Historian]

I really think Lehigh's performance is getting to Chuck. The AI is an issue for OCC games, but much less so within the conference.

Lehigh's performance for practically the entire season has been poor and we (I am a 50 year supporter of the program) are luck to have three wins. I do not think that there is any question that we do not have players we did during the 1998-2001 period, but a lot of things have contributed to the decline. The difference in SATs is far down my list.

The coaching staff is not nearly as good or experienced as it was during Higgins' final years. He had on staff at one time or another Clawson, Lembo, Gilmore, Coen and Cecchini.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fordham's success could not possibly be attributed to good coaching, good recruiting, and good execution.... There must be some reason that they have an advantage....

The real problem here is that LFN cannot stand the fact that Dayton defeated Fordham and his team could not....

I am not denying that Fordham has a great coach, great recruiting (QB John Skelton is not the only one) and good execution (winning their league games). I've talked to coach Masella and coach Gilmore and they are great head coaches. Period.

But Fordham, Holy Cross and Lafayette do have a structural advantage in terms of the AI as well.

Glad to see that your thread hijacking ways haven't changed DF... :p

[TheValleyRaider]

But two years ago, even if numbers across the board were significantly lower, Fordham was a bottom-dweller in the League, HC was hovering around the middle, and Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette were dueling it out for the title.

And just talking averages, Holy Cross' avg. SAT is all of 5 points higher than Lafayette's, yet the Crusaders are the ones challenging for the title and just whipped the 'Pards. There's more to the story than just that, I think.

There's also the point that just last year, Lehigh was in position to win the League, even with their numbers I'm sure not being significantly different relative to everyone else's.

I do believe the different levels at which we recruit can have an effect on the quality of the teams, but not to the extreme you seem to be drawing in your first post. Holy Cross is the obvious example to me, whereby they were terrible all of 3-4 years ago. Did their numbers suddenly decrease, allowing them to recruit better? Were they treading academic water while the rest of us wanted to improve our standing? I don't buy either of those xtwocentsx

[DetroitFlyer]

Thread hijacking.... Hardly. You are worried about the AI differences between Lehigh and Fordham. I correctly pointed out that a school like Dayton, that does not offer anywhere near the aid of the PL, defeated Fordham, at Fordham no less. I also pointed out that at Dayton, the football players are good students and not thugs or ringers recruited with minimal academic credentials. Now I suppose you could argue that in Dayton we bring em in kinda stoopid and then smarten em up when they come to school....

The MINOR differences in the AI between schools in the PL have absolutely nothing to do with success on the field. Now, if you want to compare Lehigh to Youngstown State, I think you have an argument.

[crusader11]

Who invited you to the party Detroit? Please stop using a thread like this as an excuse to bring up Dayton.
Congratulations, you guys have had a nice year in a very mediocre conference playing lower than mediocre opponents. End of story.

[DetroitFlyer]

I have a formal invitation to join every PL thread on AGS. :D The last I checked, this is a PUBLIC forum is it not?xnodx Does the PL have it's own forum? If so, go and discuss items over there that you do not wish the public to chime in on here. Our "mediocre" league as you call it, does have it own board, and we do discuss things over there that we do not wish to discuss on AGS.

http://www.geocities.com/lurkingd/

If you do not have a board, surely one of you high SAT PL types, ( maybe even an HC grad ), could set one up.... Heck, if us local yokels from the PFL can do it, I'm almost certain you could pull it off!xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

I do think AI makes a difference, but not as much as LFN asserts. Based on my experience and talking to many other players in my situation I can confidently say that Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Colgate, and Bucknell all have extremely similar admission criteria for FB players. Any differences are minor and barely notworthy. The difference are in the cases of Fordham and Georgetown. Fordham is an excellent school but may be able to get a few guys in who the others may not. Georgetown suffers the most, I think they lose a lot of potential recruits to admissions. But overall the bottom line is that all of the schools can be successful with good coaches and proper funding and this is the real issue not AI.

[Franks Tanks]

I have a formal invitation to join every PL thread on AGS. :D The last I checked, this is a PUBLIC forum is it not?xnodx Does the PL have it's own forum? If so, go and discuss items over there that you do not wish the public to chime in on here. Our "mediocre" league as you call it, does have it own board, and we do discuss things over there that we do not wish to discuss on AGS.

http://www.geocities.com/lurkingd/

If you do not have a board, surely one of you high SAT PL types, ( maybe even an HC grad ), could set one up.... Heck, if us local yokels from the PFL can do it, I'm almost certain you could pull it off!xlolx

Man you really have an inferiority complex. Dayton is a fine school with a good FB program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do believe the different levels at which we recruit can have an effect on the quality of the teams, but not to the extreme you seem to be drawing in your first post. Holy Cross is the obvious example to me, whereby they were terrible all of 3-4 years ago. Did their numbers suddenly decrease, allowing them to recruit better? Were they treading academic water while the rest of us wanted to improve our standing? I don't buy either of those xtwocentsx

Holy Cross' resurgence (to me) has a lot to do with Tom Gilmore taking advantage of the resources that were available to him but not taken advantage by his predecessors. Gilmore has built that program up from the doldrums to being on the brink of a title and the playoffs. Tom Masella has done something similar at Fordham.

It's not really a matter of schools "wanting to improve their standing", but it's more a matter of "the standing is just getting higher". Across the board in the PL academic standards are going up due to factors not entirely under their control, and Holy Cross is not an exception at all in that matter. It's just that Holy Cross started at a lower point than Lehigh and Colgate. Now that teams like Lehigh and Colgate are getting tighter in the straightjacket, Holy Cross is a big beneficiary. They actually occupy the place Lehigh and Colgate used to occupy.

To me, this is eerily similar to what happened in the Ivy League with Dartmouth from 1996 to 1998, when higher academic standards (partially due to the AI, partially to a new admissions director). Those who argue that it can't affect a team almost immediately, I say:

1996: 10-0, Dartmouth Ivy League Champs
1997: 8-2
1998: 2-8

Let me reiterate that this doesn't mean that Holy Cross' and Fordham's success is solely due to the AI rules. It is just one piece of the puzzle, and Holy Cross and Fordham have gotten some great coaches to help them to get where they are now. But the AI, IMO, is a factor.

[BlueHen86]

Man you really have an inferiority complex. Dayton is a fine school with a good FB program.

xnodx

[The Historian]

Man you really have an inferiority complex. Dayton is a fine school with a good FB program.

His complex is OCD. I will spell it out for him, just in case, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.

Obsessive-compulsive disorder symptoms include both obsessions and compulsions. OCD symptoms can be severe and time-consuming. For instance, someone who feels that his or her hands have become contaminated by germs — an obsession — may spend hours washing them each day — a compulsion. The focus on hand washing may be so great that he or she can accomplish little else.

In his case, substitute posts on any Patriot League thread for hand washing.

[Franks Tanks]

Holy Cross' resurgence (to me) has a lot to do with Tom Gilmore taking advantage of the resources that were available to him but not taken advantage by his predecessors. Gilmore has built that program up from the doldrums to being on the brink of a title and the playoffs. Tom Masella has done something similar at Fordham.

It's not really a matter of schools "wanting to improve their standing", but it's more a matter of "the standing is just getting higher". Across the board in the PL academic standards are going up due to factors not entirely under their control, and Holy Cross is not an exception at all in that matter. It's just that Holy Cross started at a lower point than Lehigh and Colgate. Now that teams like Lehigh and Colgate are getting tighter in the straightjacket, Holy Cross is a big beneficiary. They actually occupy the place Lehigh and Colgate used to occupy.

To me, this is eerily similar to what happened in the Ivy League with Dartmouth from 1996 to 1998, when higher academic standards (partially due to the AI, partially to a new admissions director). Those who argue that it can't affect a team almost immediately, I say:

1996: 10-0, Dartmouth Ivy League Champs
1997: 8-2
1998: 2-8

Let me reiterate that this doesn't mean that Holy Cross' and Fordham's success is solely due to the AI rules. It is just one piece of the puzzle, and Holy Cross and Fordham have gotten some great coaches to help them to get where they are now. But the AI, IMO, is a factor.


I agree it is a factor. But a 100 point SAT differential can be a factor-- a 23 point spread- such as the one between Lehigh and Holy Cross is not a factor. The only factor here is your coach and his staff isnt as good as the one at HC. Lehigh doesnt have the players because maybe Coen cant recruit..period.

[BlueHen86]

What was actually typed:

His complex is OCD. I will spell it out for him, just in case, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.

Obsessive-compulsive disorder symptoms include both obsessions and compulsions. OCD symptoms can be severe and time-consuming. For instance, someone who feels that his or her hands have become contaminated by germs — an obsession — may spend hours washing them each day — a compulsion. The focus on hand washing may be so great that he or she can accomplish little else.

In his case, substitute posts on any Patriot League thread for hand washing.

What DetroitFlyer sees when he reads it:

Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton
Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton
Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton
Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton
Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton
Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton Dayton

[DFW HOYA]

It's not the AI. Sports go in cycles..."

Not for Georgetown.

Yes, the AI is a problem--not the only one, but a contributing factor. Outside the the LFN blog, most PL schools have been careful to avoid this issue and simply parrot the "Georgetown is getting better and is just around the corner" line from Center Valley rather than deal with the issue head-on.

How many readers out there are ready to claim Georgetown is "just around the corner" to compete for the playoff bid?

[bison137]

Folks are upset that I mentioned the following in my blog last night on my "Around The Horn" in the Patriot League:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com



The "anonymous" comments have been on fire, but I think they largely miss the point. They talk about the history of the league, and that I'm casting "aspersions" on the admissions standards of the rest of the league. Simply, they're wrong. Here's the piece I wrote about the AI in the offseason:

http://www.collegesportingnews.com/article.asp?articleid=85798



I don't think it's a coincidence that the teams which have the biggest pool of athletes to recruit from are now the dominant faces of the league - with juniors and sophomores highlighting their units.

Using average SAT as a general indicator of AI:

Holy Cross: 1280
Fordham: 1186

Lafayette: 1285

Lehigh: 1303
Colgate: 1347
Georgetown: N/A but over 1400
Bucknell: N/A but average ACT 28

Pools of athletes are not the only reason great programs get started, but Fordham and Holy Cross (and Lafayette) have an advantage over the rest of the league since they can target athletes that the rest of the league cannot. Discuss.


1. Bucknell average SAT is about 1310. ACT is actually 29 for enrolled students, not 28.

2. Georgetown's average entering SAT has never been anywhere near 1450 for enrolled students. Is very likely slightly below 1400 for the most recent class.

3. Per USNews here are the self-reported median SAT's (average of 25th to 75th percentile) for the previous year. Note that this number will be slightly higher than the mean for high-level schools:

Bucknell 1310
Colgate 1345
Fordham 1195
Georgetown 1390
Holy Cross 1280
Lafayette 1290
Lehigh 1310

[bison137]

Random thoughts:

* LehighFan11, yes, the SAT is optional now at Holy Cross. However, realistically most kids looking to be admitted at "most selective" schools already do take the SAT, so they do submit them anyway.

.



Actually Holy Cross had a huge number of applicants who did not submit the SAT the first year they eliminated it as a requirement. I suspect that a lot of them did not get in however.

[OL FU]

I am going out on a limb because I am not that familiar with the subject we are talking about. But I assume it all boils down to the ability ( in the PL) or willingness (in scholarship conferences) of some schools to admit students with lower academic qualifications than other schools. If that is the case and if the argument were totally true, then one would conclude that Furman and Wofford should never be able to compete in the SoCon. While Furman is down this year, both schools have been more than competitive in a conference where I am quite certain the difference in academic requirements is more significant than in the Patriot League.

If I don't understand then I apologize.

[Fordham]

Boy, the further this thing has gone on the more it's ticked me off. We have our 3rd successful season in 20 years and Lehigh fans (yes, they're the only ones) can't let us enjoy it.

LFN, I asked you earlier in the thread "It begs the question of why the AI wasn't as big an issue when Lehigh was coached by Pete Lembo but it has now become one when you're coached by Andy Coen?" and you replied with "Having said that, the AI is not the only reason why programs are good. Of course you need great coaches, good fundraising, good relationships with the admissions office, etc." That's a heckuva disingenious dodge. So, again, tell us why the AI wasn't a problem for Lembo when the same AI relationship existed between PL schools when he was here.

Further, what is more important - AI or coaching? Which one has had the bigger role, in your opinion, in Lehigh's demise?

Seriously, I'd love to see you answer those 2 questions.

Finally, after each big win I get to come to AGS to see threads started by Lehigh fans titled "Lehigh Turns Over to Fordham" and "What happened at Lafayette?" all providing a healthy disrespect to my Rams v. instead of anything positive about Fordham ... then I get to go to the Lehigh boards and see them start to rip us on the AI before telling us that they rule the PL and kicked us out of it and are only allowing us to stay in football until they find a better school to replace us ... and now I get to see what I thought was a higher character guy than this try to shift the focus of his program's coaching failings onto us having an unfair advantage over a program we have beaten two times in the last 19 years.

And before you or anyone else goes on about whether or not this is a topic that's worthy of discussion, to me it's all about timing and context. Is it appropriate to ask your buddy for the $100 he lent to you? Absolutely. Is it appropriate to ask him in the middle of his wedding ceremony - I think not. The AI is absolutely a topic worthy of discussion. It's just more than curious and really reflects poorly on LFN for bringing it to light now imo, particularly when I have yet to see any article that focuses on Coen and his staff's failures. Is it easier to maintain a cozy relationship with Coach Coen and his staff when you write articles that divert attention away from their performance? Hey, I'm no faux-journalist, but my guess would be that it is.

(Some) Lehigh fans need to take a trip up to Easton and see if at least a little bit of class rubs off on you.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, I asked you earlier in the thread "It begs the question of why the AI wasn't as big an issue when Lehigh was coached by Pete Lembo but it has now become one when you're coached by Andy Coen?"

What I meant to say here is that the dramatic upwards shift in academic requirements is a very recent development. You can't go back and compare to even the Kevin Eakin teams since the academic profile has increased over that time. "What used to be a 1200 board score is now a 1280 board score," I quoted in my article. That's a recent phenomenon. In comparing recruiting from Lembo's days and Coen's days, you have to take into account the change in AI numbers, and all you can really say at this point is that the numbers are more difficult now.

Having said all that, does that mean coaching can cure all these ills? Opinions vary. Ask Georgetown fans that question, and you'll hear the answer: NO.

Regarding the AI at Georgetown: Is it the only factor? NO. Is it A factor? Yes. The same can be said of Fordham. Is it the only factor for their resurgence? NO. Is it A factor? Yes, IMO. I can see it working both ways: I do NOT see this as a dodge.


The AI is absolutely a topic worthy of discussion. It's just more than curious and really reflects poorly on LFN for bringing it to light now imo, particularly when I have yet to see any article that focuses on Coen and his staff's failures. Is it easier to maintain a cozy relationship with Coach Coen and his staff when you write articles that divert attention away from their performance? Hey, I'm no faux-journalist, but my guess would be that it is.

Come on, you don't think this is on people's minds? It has been a topic since the offseason. The Patriot League presidents just talked about the subject less than a week ago. And if you read some of my stuff over the last few weeks, I think it's pretty clear that one bullet point talking about the AI doesn't take away posts like this (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2007/10/lehigh-10-holy-cross-59-final.html) or this (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2007/10/sundays-word-emotion.html) about Lehigh's performance last week - and the staff, for that matter. Think those were written to "maintain a cozy relationship"?

I think you're overreating when you say that I have "ripped" Fordham. Didn't I also post this as well on the same post?


I'm really starting to like coach Tom Masella of Fordham. He goes out and coaches a huge win for Fordham by pretty much dominating Lafayette 34-23, and then he turns around and says, "I'd say we're officially in the mix for a Patriot League championship." Um, coach? If you beat Bucknell, who's winless in the league, and beat Holy Cross at home, you ARE the championship... that, sir, is not "in the mix". That's "in the driver's seat". Sophomore QB Josh Skelton is just getting stronger and stronger, completing his first 11 passes on the day on his way to a 323 yard passing day with 2 touchdowns passing and one running. He says how they kept Lafayette on their back foot: "We knew they'd blitz a lot and I think our first three of four passes were all screen passes and that helped us get them off balance. Then once we were able to figure out their blitz we were able to get it downfield." Here's something else: they're the first team to have figured out Lafayette's blitz all season. Two weeks from now, Fordham will in all likelihood be facing Holy Cross in the Bronx for the championship, and I think they have a great chance to do it.

[LehighFan11]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;705749] Lehigh doesnt have the players because maybe Coen cant recruit..period.

No, we are just seeing Coen's recruits this year. So far I'm impressed with his recuirting. Lehigh has used the most freshman they have used in a long time. Recruiting issues still date back to Lembo's horrible job.

[HIU 93]

Using average SAT as a general indicator of AI:

Holy Cross: 1280
Fordham: 1186

Lafayette: 1285

Lehigh: 1303
Colgate: 1347
Georgetown: N/A but over 1400

Are these scores on the old SAT scale or the new one?

[danefan]

Are these scores on the old SAT scale or the new one?

That has to be the old scale.

[HIU 93]

That has to be the old scale.

It doesn't "have" to be. I just want to know before I give my answer. it matters.

[LehighFan11]

Are these scores on the old SAT scale or the new one?

old one, thank god.

[HIU 93]

old one, thank god.

If those scores are on the old 1600 point scale, then none of you have anything to worry about. All of those scores are very high, even with the current easier version of the test.

[Franks Tanks]

xwhistlex xwhistlex
[QUOTE=Franks Tanks;705761]

No, we are just seeing Coen's recruits this year. So far I'm impressed with his recuirting. Lehigh has used the most freshman they have used in a long time. Recruiting issues still date back to Lembo's horrible job.

Lembo seems to be doing pretty well at Elon now xwhistlex

[carney2]

The AI is a non-starter here. The success of Holy Cross and Fordham is not that difficult to figure out. They have, for the moment, found a way to outfox their primary football competitors - Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh, in particular - who they have, quite frankly, not been able to out-recruit. I know that the Buffalo supporters are gearing up for basketball and will little note nor long remember what I say here, but I do fear the inevitable verbal retribution from DFW as I leave the herd from Lewisburg and the DC Stonewalls out of this discussion. Oh well, here goes.

With Andy Coen in charge at Lehigh and stating that the Squawks will henceforth run a "balanced offense" (I have called this a mistake in other posts and continue to hold that opinion), the FeatherHeads join their cousins from Easton and the NY tundra as just so many peas in a pod. The "winner" amongst these three will, in the long run, be the most able recruiter, with the Lehigh Valley schools holding, in my opinion, slight advantages of location and facilities. All three are looking for the exact same players: large people who like to get both bloody and dirty down in the trenches; running backs with enough size and skill to follow the behemoths down the field; receivers who like to block; and some people with speed to give you some semblance of a pass defense. (We all know however, that a "balanced offense" devotee feels that his "three yards and a cloud of dust" offense is probably good enough as a defender because it will keep the other guy's offense off the field and "run the clock.") If they pick up a strong armed guy to play quarterback along the way, well, so much the better. They need numbers - large numbers - to pull this off. In the end however, these three run first, last and always. They are - or soon will be when Coen completes his makeover - three smash mouth teams with coaches who really believe in that rugby scrum along the line of scrimmage.

Enter the two Toms, Gilmore and Masella. They do not have the "talent" up and down the roster to play smash mouth with the "Big 3." On the whole they are smaller, with less "depth." They have been, and continue to be, at a recruiting disadvantage vis a vis the big kids. (The "disadvantages" vary between these two schools, but if you don't believe that they exist, you are in dreamland.) At the very least it is unlikely that they will be able to come up with both the quantity and quality of smash mouth bodies to be consistently in the hunt. What we have then, are two programs that cannot now, and possibly never will, beat the Big 3 at their own game.

The answer is to create a new game, which Holy Cross and Fordham, each in its own way, has done. I would like to congratulate Messrs. Gilmore and Masella on their foresight and creativity, but I think that they were the benefactors of good fortune as much as clear thinking. They each landed strong armed quarterbacks and large, competent wide receivers that allowed them to implement a spread offense that does not require all of those huge bodies in the scrum, does not require large, skilled running backs, and does not require quality replacement after quality replacement. They have become their own versions of those Air Lehigh teams that were able to rise above their station and go toe to toe with JMU and soundly trounce Southern (do I have the right one? There are so many of them) Illinois in the I-AA playoffs.

The AI is not a factor. You could only make that argument if these two schools were burying their Patriot League opponents with hordes of superior talent. That is not the case. They are doing it with creativity and vastly superior talent in a few key places.

[UncleSam]

Question for you Pat League guys, does Georgetown apply the same lofty academic standards to their basketball recruting as they apparently do in their football program?

I can't believe that they do and if they don't, why don't they apply similar (lower) academic standars relative to their potential football recruits???

[HIU 93]

Question for you Pat Leagues guys, does Georgetown apply the same lofty academic standards to their basketball recruting as they apparently do in their football program?

I can't believe that they do and if they don't, why don't they apply similar (lower) academic standars relative to their potential football recruits???

Because football doesn't bring tens of millions of dollars into the coffers on 37th St. NW.

[UncleSam]

Because football doesn't bring tens of millions of dollars into the coffers on 37th St. NW.

Sounds like discrimination to me, time for some "affirmative action" for the football program. ;)

[Franks Tanks]

Question for you Pat League guys, does Georgetown apply the same lofty academic standards to their basketball recruting as they apparently do in their football program?

I can't believe that they do and if they don't, why don't they apply similar (lower) academic standars relative to their potential football recruits???

Wow thats funny xlolx. No Patrick Ewing and that Bumch-Bumcha guy from a few years ago didnt have 1400 SAT's. They choose to lower there standards for those 12 or so basketball players, as 12 people has a minimal effect on academic numbers. They answer as to why they dont let in kids with lower SAT's for football is simple---they dont want to. Notre Dame and USC are excellent schools, but they want to compete at the highest level so they bend.

[HIU 93]

Sounds like discrimination to me, time for some "affirmative action" for the football program. ;)

What the heck does this discussion have to do with affirmative action?

[HIU 93]

Wow thats funny xlolx. No Patrick Ewing and that Bumch-Bumcha guy from a few years ago didnt have 1400 SAT's.

Actually, both of them DID have excellent academic records.

[UncleSam]

What the heck does this discussion have to do with affirmative action?

apparently the 'joke' went over your head........... xrolleyesx

[Spoke]

Question for you Pat League guys, does Georgetown apply the same lofty academic standards to their basketball recruting as they apparently do in their football program?

I can't believe that they do and if they don't, why don't they apply similar (lower) academic standars relative to their potential football recruits???

Because basketball is in the Big East. The Big East doesn't have an AI, the Patriot League (in which GTown's football team competes), does.

Additionally, even though the SAT is optional at Holy Cross, athletes still must contribute SAT/ACT scores as per NCAA regulations, regardless of a school's admissions requirements.

[Fordham]

What I meant to say here is that the dramatic upwards shift in academic requirements is a very recent development. You can't go back and compare to even the Kevin Eakin teams since the academic profile has increased over that time. "What used to be a 1200 board score is now a 1280 board score," I quoted in my article. That's a recent phenomenon.

You're the (faux) journalist, yet you don't tell us what the SAT for each school was 5 years ago and what it is now. The fact that Lehigh's has gone up 80 points doesn't mean squat if every other PL school's has also gone up. Or are you claiming that only Lehigh has increased the academic profile of its incoming classes?

Again, that's why I referenced the AI in terms of the rankings of all PL schools (hint: it's risen for all of us). Was Lehigh at the bottom of the PL in the Lembo days and he had an advantage over other PL schools and that's why he did well? Or was it basically the same for the past 5 - 10 years where we've been at the bottom, G-town has been at the top and the rest of the PL has been in between? If the latter is the case, then relative to all other PL schools the only thing that changed for Lehigh is that Andy Coen is coaching your team and Pete Lembo is not.


In comparing recruiting from Lembo's days and Coen's days, you have to take into account the change in AI numbers, and all you can really say at this point is that the numbers are more difficult now.
No kidding, but they're more difficult for all of us as every PL school has increased it's academic standing. As I stated above, Lehigh was likely in the middle of the PL from an AI standpoint and so it is for Coen. What's killing me about this AI argument is that the only way it's not completely Coen's fault is if Lehigh has been the only school to increase its academic profile (and therefore its AI) in the past few years.


Come on, you don't think this is on people's minds? It has been a topic since the offseason. The Patriot League presidents just talked about the subject less than a week ago. And if you read some of my stuff over the last few weeks, I think it's pretty clear that one bullet point talking about the AI doesn't take away posts like this (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2007/10/lehigh-10-holy-cross-59-final.html) or this (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2007/10/sundays-word-emotion.html) about Lehigh's performance last week - and the staff, for that matter. Think those were written to "maintain a cozy relationship"?


LFN, just because you write about the despair in how the team has performed doesn't mean that you've addressed whether or not Coen has been the primary cause of your program's demise. <as an aside, I'm not claiming that he is since I think he needs to have at least 3 full classes of 'his guys' on his team before deciding if he's the guy but his performance so far is eerily reminiscent of Foley's tenure at Fordham>. When I read those 2 articles I see lines that Coach Coen could not argue with after your team's performance. Thus, I really don't see where you've ever written anything that would cause any friction for your next meeting with Coach Coen. Like I said before, it's all timing and context and your AI thread here smacks way too much of someone who's both afraid to admit that there's something wrong with his buddy in the corner office and prefers instead to offer up the 'red herring' so that Lehigh fans can console themselves with the fact that they're getting beaten by ringers who have an unfair advantage instead of being outcoached and outperformed. It's a very sad statement on you and Lehigh fans in general in my opinion. Write the article about the impact Coach Coen has had on the program and then have the biscuits to go in and still look him in the eye and ask him questions for your next article. Again, AI = red herring.


I think you're overreating when you say that I have "ripped" Fordham. Didn't I also post this as well on the same post? Are you freaking kidding me? I didn't say that you thought our team was poor at playing football, which is what all of your positive comments are directed towards. What you've done is say that these great, "praise-worthy" football players could have never gotten into an elite institution like Lehigh and the only praise that they should get is for their football ability while giving a wink and nod about it while saying. Yet, you still have yet to focus on how with the same AI-spread (in relationship with other PL schools), Coach Coen has decimated your program. Write that article first, then the AI one, and you'd help to start repairing the reputation of Lehigh fans, which imo has sunk to a new low now that your team is not in the mix for the league title for the first time in years.

[The Historian]

Discussions of admission standards among league members are rarely enlighting and always brought up the the losing schools. This thread is a perfect example.

LFN spends much time and effort in writing his blog, but lately he seems to have lost his way. As a Lehigh fan, I would find most interesting a careful analysis of why the program has been declining and particularly why it went off a cliff last Saturday.

Many reasons have been offered -- Lembo, Coen, poor game plans, bad recruiting, poor coaching, lack of player development, global warming, George Bush (well leave out the last two).

Okay Chuck, how about it. Give Joe Sterrett a call and see what he thinks.

[LehighFan11]

xwhistlex xwhistlex [QUOTE=LehighFan11;705992]

Lembo seems to be doing pretty well at Elon now xwhistlex

I understand that and thats great for him. But, its still mostly his players on Lehigh's team now. Great example is Miami in 2000. Coach Coker came in and they destroyed everyone and won the national championship game and took the team to the national championship game the next year. Those teams were more of a product of Davis's recruiting than Coker's coach. Same applies for Lehigh right now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You're the (faux) journalist, yet you don't tell us what the SAT for each school was 5 years ago and what it is now. The fact that Lehigh's has gone up 80 points doesn't mean squat if every other PL school's has also gone up. Or are you claiming that only Lehigh has increased the academic profile of its incoming classes?

That is categorically false. Fordham is competing for recruits in a space that Lehigh and Colgate used to occupy. Lehigh and Colgate are competing for recruits in a space that Harvard and Yale occupies. There is a difference. I never said that the AI didn't go up for everybody. It clearly did.


Again, that's why I referenced the AI in terms of the rankings of all PL schools (hint: it's risen for all of us). Was Lehigh at the bottom of the PL in the Lembo days and he had and advantage over other PL schools and that's why he did well? Or was it basically the same for the past 5 - 10 years where we've been at the bottom, G-town has been at the top and the rest of the PL has been in between? If the latter is the case, then relative to all other PL schools the only thing that changed for Lehigh is that Andy Coen is coaching your team and Pete Lembo is not.

No, what has changed is that Fordham are competing for recruits that Lehigh and Colgate used to be able to get. And Lehigh's and Colgate's pools have shrunk considerably more than the amount of shrinkage for Fordham.


No kidding, but they're more difficult for all of us as every PL school has increased it's academic standing. As I stated above, Lehigh was likely in the middle of the PL from an AI standpoint and so is Coen. What's killing me about this AI argument is that the only way it's not completely Coen's fault is if Lehigh has been the only school to increase its academic profile (and therefore its AI) in the past few years.

I continually bring up Colgate as another example of a school that has experienced this, but you continually ignore it. And they've had the same coach for the last 10 years. In 2003, they were in the championship game. In 2006, they were 4-7.

[Franks Tanks]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;706070]That is categorically false. Fordham and Holy Cross are competing for recruits in a space that Lehigh and Colgate used to occupy. Lehigh and Colgate are competing for recruits in a space that Harvard and Yale occupies. There is a difference. I never said that the AI didn't go up for everybody. It clearly did.



No, what has changed is that Fordham and Holy Cross are competing for recruits that Lehigh and Colgate used to be able to get. And Lehigh's and Colgate's pools have shrunk considerably more than the amount of shrinkage for Holy Cross and Fordham.


Your are really stretching LFN--again Lehigh's avergae Sat score is 25 points over Holy Cross, you make is sound that beause of that small difference Holy Cross gets guys who didnt get into Miami. You whole argument is laughable and terrible. Perhaps Lehigh's administration made a conscious effort to raise the academic standing of football recruits, because even though you will refuse to believe this Lehigh let in kids who were very borderline in your glory years. If there has been a change in the caliber of students it has nothing to do with the AI and everything to do with an institutional decision to do so. That is really where the distinction lies I cant believe you miss this. 25 Sat points is NOTHING!! It is all about what the admission office is accepting, and thats an institutional decision.

[LehighFan11]

Listen us Lehigh fans are not trying to bash Fordham and Holy Cross for their success this year. The AI is a contributing factor for Lehigh's fall but it is a much less important reason than changes in coaching, player development, recruiting, and passion. Lehigh can only look at themselves for their failures. Even if Lehigh had the AI of Fordham, are we talking maybe 1 more win in the last 2 years? Even if it had brought in a few extra players, the coach staff still sucks and wouldn't be able to develope the players. All of Lehigh's problems come back to coaching and the organization.

[Go...gate]

Not for Georgetown.

Yes, the AI is a problem--not the only one, but a contributing factor. Outside the the LFN blog, most PL schools have been careful to avoid this issue and simply parrot the "Georgetown is getting better and is just around the corner" line from Center Valley rather than deal with the issue head-on.

How many readers out there are ready to claim Georgetown is "just around the corner" to compete for the playoff bid?

I still am. I remember it took Fordham a long time to truly get its program up to speed after it joined the PL in 1989. It realy did not break through until 2001. Now, Georgetown is the building program. I'm very glad you guys are in the fold.

I concur with those posters that see this as a cyclical thing. Not long ago, Lafayette was threatening to go DIII. Now they are defending champion. Similarly, Colgate struggled mightily from 1986 to 1995, posting only two winning seasons and an 0-11 stinker in 1995. It subsequently became championship caliber again. The same thing can be said for Holy Cross, Bucknell, and Lehigh. That, IMO, is one of the great things about the PL.

[Go...gate]

If those scores are on the old 1600 point scale, then none of you have anything to worry about. All of those scores are very high, even with the current easier version of the test.

I'm embarrassed to sound so ignorant, but is the test now easier? I did not realize this.

[LehighFan11]

I'm embarrassed to sound so ignorant, but is the test now easier? I did not realize this.

No, the test is easier in October rather than Dec, April, June.

[LeopardFan04]

No, the test is easier in October rather than Dec, April, June.

xconfusedx Are you serious, or joking? Serious question.

[LehighFan11]

I dont have an statistical evidence to back it up but I have heard from alot of people including teachers that say it is easier in October. All of my friends that took the test in october did atleast 50-100 points better in october than other times. I could be mistaken.

[JoltinJoe]

I hated it when we were stupid and we sucked.

Now that we're just stupid, I can live with it.xwhistlex

No wonder folks from other leagues think that we're snooty.

[LeopardFan04]

Are these scores on the old SAT scale or the new one?


Those are still on the old scale. Even with the 600-2400 scale now, most stats are still based on the 1600 scale. Many of the schools are still not fully considering the essay aspect of the current format of the SAT. I work for an test prep company, and we were just discussing this at our meeting on Saturday. (A meeting that caused me to have to watch the Fordham game on TV, which might have been better.)

Anyway, I think that soon we will see more 2400-scale scores appear in stats, since the test has been around over 2 years now. Also, the ACT has an optional essay, which may be suggested for submission by more schools now that the schools are becoming more accustomed to the SAT essay. The schools have been hesitant to consider it. First of all, because its new, and it hasn't been tested long term to see if it is truly a good indicator of a student's writing schools. Second, most of the schools are likely reluctant to a change in how they do things.

[LeopardFan04]

I dont have an statistical evidence to back it up but I have heard from alot of people including teachers that say it is easier in October. All of my friends that took the test in october did atleast 50-100 points better in october than other times. I could be mistaken.


That's the first I've ever heard that. The test should be as even as possible across the board. The scaled score is also adjusted based on the test's difficulty to try to even this sort of thing out.

EDIT: Extra question. When they were taking it in October, were they seniors rather than juniors as it the spring? Scores often go up, since more material has been covered in school. Also, taking it a second time can help scores (especially if you don't do a great deal of preparation on your own) since you'll be more used to the format/structure of the test.

[Franks Tanks]

Listen us Lehigh fans are not trying to bash Fordham and Holy Cross for their success this year. The AI is a contributing factor for Lehigh's fall but it is a much less important reason than changes in coaching, player development, recruiting, and passion. Lehigh can only look at themselves for their failures. Even if Lehigh had the AI of Fordham, are we talking maybe 1 more win in the last 2 years? Even if it had brought in a few extra players, the coach staff still sucks and wouldn't be able to develope the players. All of Lehigh's problems come back to coaching and the organization.

I thought you were arguing before that Coen is a good coach but you suck now because of Lembo's recruits? Now you are saying the current staff is doing a poor job. Which is it or both? Also again its no the stinkin AI, wouldnt your AI still have been compartievely the same in reattion to the other PL schools in 2000? I think Lehigh's administration made a conscious effort to raise the bar on football recruits, thats what I will believe until someone can make a logical argument otherwise.. Im still waiting

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I took down the comment in my blog posting. It was the right thing to do.

The AI means that the standards have been ratcheted up for everybody. But some have managed the new standards better than others. They deserve credit for that, and not have some schmuck saying they only got there because their AI is (marginally) lower. So this schmuck apologizes.

Truth is, increasing AI can have an immediate and dramatic difference in the fortunes of a team - and so can admissions offices.

[Fordham]

That is categorically false. Fordham and Holy Cross are competing for recruits in a space that Lehigh and Colgate used to occupy. Lehigh and Colgate are competing for recruits in a space that Harvard and Yale occupies. There is a difference. I never said that the AI didn't go up for everybody. It clearly did.

If it went up for everyone, then recruits that we used to be able to get are no longer options as well, just as it did for all other PL schools. Again, it's your Lehigh-myopia that's killing this for me. It seems that you've decided that since Lehigh's average SAT's went up by 80 points, we must be not only stealing your recruits but also able to still recruit athletes that we could have gotten several years ago as well ... and that's only true if Lehigh's been the only one that increased their academic standing in the past few years, which you admitted above is not true.

Again, if what you just stated is true, then we were recruiting athletes several years ago that couldnt' get into Lehigh, et. al. and now that all of our academic profiles have gone up, we are therefore no longer eligible to recruit kids that could have gotten into Fordham just a few years back. Again, the tide has lifted and we are all comparitively in the same spot we were in a few years back, the key difference being the coaching changes.


No, what has changed is that Fordham and Holy Cross are competing for recruits that Lehigh and Colgate used to be able to get. And Lehigh's and Colgate's pools have shrunk considerably more than the amount of shrinkage for Holy Cross and Fordham.

Fill us in on some details since you're the journalist then and defend your statement that your profile has increased "considerably more" than at HC or Fordham. Also, which recruits have you lost out on that Lehigh has passed up on since they couldn't get into the school?


I continually bring up Colgate as another example of a school that has experienced this, but you continually ignore it. And they've had the same coach for the last 10 years. In 2003, they were in the championship game. In 2006, they were 4-7. NONSENSE! You have not given any impression that your focus has been on Colgate as opposed to the drop in your own program. I don't have much doubt whatsoever that Colgate is a clear example of a school that is simply on a down cycle. Read their boards and talk to their fans and they've been elated at the recruiting classes that have brought them guys like Scott and Babb and I have no doubt that they'll be right back in the thick of things since they have a stellar coach like Biddle at the reigns. Again, I guess, anything to try to get everyone to focus on something other than Coen and his staff as being the main (not sole) culprit in your demise, I guess. xrolleyesx

Again, write the article that questions the performance of your staff and its impact on Lehigh's demise first and I might be more than willing to agree that the AI as it relates to Fordham's unfair advantage versus the rest of the league is the right topic to be bringing up at this time.

Timing and context, LFN. Timing and context. Why now if the impact of AI has been around for so long?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Post #60, Fordham. Battle over.

[Go...gate]

How much does Lehigh's slight leveling out have to do with the fact that Lafayette is again a viable program with comparable, if not better, physical facilities?

I still see this as the ebb and flow of collegiate athletics which, at the FCS level, is still primarily the province of the true student-athlete. Sounds like some of you guys in Bethlehem (who have and will go on having a fine program with great kids), are overreacting a bit. Everybody has a disappointing season from time to time.

[Franks Tanks]

I took down the comment in my blog posting. It was the right thing to do.

The AI means that the standards have been ratcheted up for everybody. But some have managed the new standards better than others. They deserve credit for that, and not have some schmuck saying they only got there because their AI is (marginally) lower. So this schmuck apologizes.

Truth is, increasing AI can have an immediate and dramatic difference in the fortunes of a team - and so can admissions offices.

Mostly this one---no matter how high the AI may be, the individual school still decides who to let in.

[DFW HOYA]

Question for you Pat League guys, does Georgetown apply the same lofty academic standards to their basketball recruting as they apparently do in their football program?

I can't believe that they do and if they don't, why don't they apply similar (lower) academic standars relative to their potential football recruits???

First, the comparison between football and basketball (or any
scholarship sport at Georgetown) is not a comparable one. Football is
required to follow the rules of the Patriot League which has strictly
defined parameters (the so-called "bands" of the AI) in which to
recruit. The Big East does not maintain any AI range and teams must
recruit a range of scores as a competitive necessity. In theory,
Georgetown could simply recruit 1400 SAT players in men's basketball
and find themselves in the same predicament as football--underfunded,
out-recruited and stuck in last place. It's the same reason Lehigh
offers scholarships in wrestling--the competitive environment dictates
it.

Here is my point with the AI and the use of SAT's within it--it is
designed for an Ivy League model that does not fit the PL. The
Ivy AI rests on the assumption that schools at the high end of the AI
(H-Y-P) have a distinct advantage over Dartmouth, Cornell and Penn.
The AI was an attempt to level the field that would otherwise
gravitate to H-Y-P every time. But the Patriot recruiting base does
not automatically gravitate to Georgetown and Colgate as it would to
Harvard and Yale.

I'm not resentful of Fordham's success nor their AI gap versus
Georgetown. Instead, I would argue that the PL needs to create a level
playing field--an AI that applies equally to all schools at all times.
Fordham should have the same range as Lehigh, Lafayette, or
Georgetown, so that a student athlete choosing between the schools
gets a fair chance across the board and vice versa.

And what happens as Holy Cross drops the SAT as an admission tool
altogether? Do a lot of otherwise good kids that would never get in
before suddenly appear on the HC signee lists, and how will that play
with recruiting lists in Easton and Bethlehem?

But this is all whistling past the graveyard. The scholarship issue is
coming, and if the presidents pretend it's not there, the PL will lose
schools who will eventually want to be more competitive in football
and not see their prospect base increasingly limited as SAT scores
rise and NEC schools inevitably begin to pick off the better talent
with full rides.

And by then it'll be too late.

PS: For the poster earlier ragging on Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje ('01), check your facts. He was the valedictorian of Archbishop Carroll HS in Washington, graduated Georgetown with a double major in math and biology, becoming the first pre-med on the men's team since 1968. Oh, and he was Big East scholar athlete of the year in 2001.

[Fordham]

Post #60, Fordham. Battle over. Fair enough. Too bad this thread took place at all, imo.

[ngineer]

How much does Lehigh's slight leveling out have to do with the fact that Lafayette is again a viable program with comparable, if not better, physical facilities?

I still see this as the ebb and flow of collegiate athletics which, at the FCS level, is still primarily the province of the true student-athlete. Sounds like some of you guys in Bethlehem (who have and will go on having a fine program with great kids), are overreacting a bit. Everybody has a disappointing season from time to time.

Exactly right. Just look in the back of our media guide and you'll see every season going back to 1884. Programs go through cycles. I note a power named Georgia Southern has 'fallen' on hard times with 'mediocre' seasons of 7-4, 9-3, 8-4 and 3-8 the past four seasons--somewhat similar to Lehigh's 'drop off' during the same period: 8-3, 9-3, 8-3 and 6-5. IF Lehigh can get turned around, it can still go 7-4 or 6-5--resulting in a winning season for the TENTH year in a row, which would be a school record. Lehigh is in a bit of transition with new coaches and shift in philosophy. There will likely be some personnel changes after this year, but overall until this year plays out everything is up for grabs. I competitive leagues, it doesn't take much for a shift to occur. Gilmore now in his third year has been able to recruit 'his type' and install 'his way'. Massella has a little jump due to being a HC elsewhere. Having worn the Brown & White, I am quite chagrinned about what has happened the past three weeks. However, having grown up with a football coach and played many years, I have seen these cycles revolve with most programs. It's learning how to deal with the choppy seas that determines whether a program starts to sink or learns to bail together and right the ship. IF a 'down year' for us is going 6-5, again, with the expectation that Coen is following a plan with what we believe to be some very good youngster waiting in the wings, then most can accept that. I do not see this period of Lehigh football being attributable to the AI at all..the differences are not significant enough to make a difference between what I see are comparable athletes.
The SAT's have nothing to do with the flat emotional approach Lehigh has shown.
I would have the Lehigh team all in attendance this Friday at the funeral for past HC and AD Bill Leckonby. Soak up what 'Being Lehigh' is all about while sitting in Packer Chapel and ponder the tradition of excellence the "Leck" created during his tenure.

[blukeys]

I took down the comment in my blog posting. It was the right thing to do.

The AI means that the standards have been ratcheted up for everybody. But some have managed the new standards better than others. They deserve credit for that, and not have some schmuck saying they only got there because their AI is (marginally) lower. So this schmuck apologizes.

Truth is, increasing AI can have an immediate and dramatic difference in the fortunes of a team - and so can admissions offices.

classy decision Chuck. xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[JoltinJoe]

1. Bucknell average SAT is about 1310. ACT is actually 29 for enrolled students, not 28.

2. Georgetown's average entering SAT has never been anywhere near 1450 for enrolled students. Is very likely slightly below 1400 for the most recent class.

3. Per USNews here are the self-reported median SAT's (average of 25th to 75th percentile) for the previous year. Note that this number will be slightly higher than the mean for high-level schools:

Bucknell 1310
Colgate 1345
Fordham 1195
Georgetown 1390
Holy Cross 1280
Lafayette 1290
Lehigh 1310

The US News data is old. I know that the current average SAT at Fordham is 1230.

Father McShane Highlights Fordham’s Vitality
During Address at Annual Faculty Convocation (http://www.fordham.edu/campus_resources/public_affairs/inside_fordham/october_9_2007/father_mcshane_highl_27149.asp)

[JoltinJoe]

I've also heard that on the heels of being named by Newsweek as one of the 25 "Hottest Colleges in America," Fordham will probably receive in the area of 25,000 applications during this admission cycle and will ultimately report an acceptance rate in the higher 30 percent range with at least another 20 points higher on its average SATs.

So there is no school in the PL whose AI is increasing at a faster rate than Fordham. And yet Fordham football is also rapidly improving.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham will probably receive in the area of 25,000 applications during this admission cycle and will ultimately report an acceptance rate in the higher 30 percent range with at least another 20 points higher on its average SATs. So there is no school in the PL whose AI is increasing at a faster rate than Fordham. And yet Fordham football is also rapidly improving.

That's faulty logic. Every PL school's AI is increasing.

So Fordham is getting 60% more apps than Georgertown and double that of Notre Dame. I'm not sure that is a useful number, esp. if Fordham is using the Common Application which inflates the numbers at schools which use it. (Neither Georgetown nor ND accept the Common Application).

The issue should be how many students are "yielding" (accepting Fordham's offer) and that is still a low number; otherwise, Fordham would have 6,000 freshmen coming in next fall.

[JoltinJoe]

That's faulty logic. Every PL school's AI is increasing.

So Fordham is getting 60% more apps than Georgertown and double that of Notre Dame. I'm not sure that is a useful number, esp. if Fordham is using the Common Application which inflates the numbers at schools which use it. (Neither Georgetown nor ND accept the Common Application).

The issue should be how many students are "yielding" (accepting Fordham's offer) and that is still a low number; otherwise, Fordham would have 6,000 freshmen coming in next fall.

What's faulty logic? My point is simply that Fordham's average SAT is rising and the same time its football fortunes are rising.

I never said other schools in the PL don't have AIs that are increasing. I simply trying to point out that you can't use a rising AI as an excuse for a once lofty program falling to the middle of the pack when other programs have seen an increase in AI and have not fallen on hard times.

As for Fordham's yield, it too will continue to increase as misperceptions of its Bronx neighborhood are corrected. I don't understand your response. I think as a graduate of a fellow Jesuit school you'd be happy to see Fordham receive the acclaim that we both know has been overdue. It was less then 30 years ago that it was feared Fordham would have to shut down its operations in the Bronx if it was going to survive. And today it is thriving.

It is a testament to Fordham's strength as an institution that it stuck it out in the Bronx and is now thriving. Schools of lesser strength or notoriety may not have survived (take a look at the fate of Upsala College, once a competitive school in East Orange, New Jersey forced to close due to its location in a troubled neighborhood).

Don't think that the threat to Fordham wasn't real or is being exaggerated in retrospect. NYU abandoned its flagship campus location in the Bronx and centralized its operations in Greenwich Village under a similar fear of bankruptcy in the early 1970s.

I would think a proud graduate of a great Jesuit school would be pleased to see Fordham, the Jesuit presence in the greatest city in the world, achieve stature as a first-tier university. New Yorkers have long known about Fordham but now the rest of the country is discovering Fordham too.

I am well aware that as Fordham battled to survive in the 1970s, the fortunes of Georgetown increased dramatically. Ask yourself, however, if Georgetown would have prospered so if it were commonly said that the "worst neighborhoods in America were directly south of 'Georgetown Road.'" Or if Charlotte Street were merely a few blocks away from your campus and President Carter stood on the corner there one day and declared it the worst ghetto in the country.

PS-- You may want to read this article from the New York Times which ran recently on the 30th anniversary of President Carter's visit to Charlotte Street:

In the Bronx, Blight Gave Way to Renewal (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/nyregion/05charlotte.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

[Fordham]

That's faulty logic. Every PL school's AI is increasing.

Not to start this out again but doesn't your statement make the logic for this entire thread faulty to begin with?

[bison137]

SAT Facts:

1. The average score for the SAT in October may be a bit higher BUT ONLY because many of those taking it in October are taking it for the second time. The average score goes up for second-time test-takers regardless of what the test date is.

2. The test has not gotten any easier. However the score was recalibrated some years ago to bring the average score back to approximately 1000. The average score had shrunk over the years, largely due to many more students, many with poorer educations, taking the exam than did so years ago.

3. All scores that are shown relative to the NCAA or the PL AI will be for the traditional two-part SAT since only that score is used by the NCAA and the PL. The two-part score is still used for National Merit Scholarship competitions and some other similar scholarship programs as well.


4. Here's an example of what pct of the general population that various schools might be able to recruit. Since we know that all schools can admit football players with reasonable grades at signficantly lower SAT scores than the schools' average SAT's, here is what pct of the general H.S. population falls within 200 points and 250 points of each PL school's average (with the pct of the H.S. population that meets the school's average SAT in parentheses):

bucknell - 35% / 44% (15.5%)
colgate - 29% / 38% (13%)
fordham - 57% / 66% (24%)
georgetown - 23% / 29% (10%)
holy cross - 40% / 48% (17%)
lafayette - 39% / 47% (16.5%)
lehigh - 36% / 45% (16%)

BTW, the pool for the average football powerhouse is around 90%.

Of course, there are two other factors that cannot be measured here: (1) it is very likely that the average SAT score of very good football players is lower than that of the overall H.S. population; and (2) GPA's are also part of the AI and they do not correlate perfectly with SAT scores.


PS: For those looking for perfection, .02% of the overall student body get a 1600.

[HIU 93]

I'm embarrassed to sound so ignorant, but is the test now easier? I did not realize this.

All analogies were taken out of the test, students are allowed to use calculators, the verbage has been changed to ask more direct questions, the number of distractors have been lowered, etc. This was done in the mid 90s, and it continues until today. The only thing different today is that there is a writing portion that is also worth 800 points, bringing the total points possible to 2400.

Most universities have not set standards on how they are going to measure the writing portion yet, so they continue to use the old scale based on the verbal and math scores.

[HIU 93]

SAT Facts:

2. The test has not gotten any easier.

Your research missed several key points- the removal of analogies, the allowed use of calculators by students, the lessening of the number of distractors, etc., etc.

Those things have all contributed to make the test easier.

[Doc QB]

Carney, you hit the nail on the head with all of Coen's "balanced" offense BS. Instead of blaming Lembo, Hank Small, new SAT scores, our horrible uniforms, or the AI, Lehigh fans should really focus on the field. We have no standouts. Period. We have good athletes. Fordham and Holy Cross have better talent. You can drum it up to a spread attack if you want, but at present they have better gameplans and better athletes. That wins games.

If Lehigh wants to separate themselves again, the need to field a unique product. Coen doesn't listen to one of his own best quotes..."tradition never graduates..." Well, that tradition is lighting up the skies with big arms and quick receivers. Balance just ain't it. The best Lehigh teams threw the ball and threw it well, and NEVER missed a beat when the number one QB or WR went down, because we had more in line. Why would a top I-AA type QB pick Lehigh over any PL team right now? They certainly won't be putting it up 40 times a game (unless they are down by 20). I'd see a guy like Dominic Randolph play, and as a high school guy, no question.

In my mind, if they get a real quality BIG arm it is because they won't have to wait in line as Lehigh does not have a clear stud waiting, and the new guy may play early. Hope we get so lucky.

Coen, THROW THE DAMN BALL. Your boss is a former LU-Lafayette MVP QB...you think he enoys this sh@t? He does not. I stood with him during the first half outside his usual post by the pressbox, had a nice chat. Second half, he threw is laptop into the locker room and stormed to the sideline and stared down Coen the entire, ugly second half. Throw the ball, or throw you job.

[LBPop]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the academic standards at Georgetown drastically affect its ability to recruit football players. Consider the following:

Unlike everyone else, Georgetown's recruits are smart enough to go on line or visit the campus and realize that the football facilities are horrible. From the field, to the locker room, to the weight room the facilities are the worst in the PL. And unfortunately the kids recruited by Georgetown are smart enough to figure that out.
Georgetown recruits have to be excellent at math. They are, therefore, able to count to 10. That happens to be the total number of victories that the Hoyas have achieved in football in nearly four years.I rest my case. Georgetown's poor performance in the Patriot League is 100% due to their academic standards in recruiting.

xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[bison137]

Your research missed several key points- the removal of analogies, the allowed use of calculators by students, the lessening of the number of distractors, etc., etc.

Those things have all contributed to make the test easier.


Not easier - just different. I taught test prep for years for Kaplan as a part-time job, and I don't think there is any real difference in difficulty between the test now and the test 20 years ago.

[Go...gate]

Exactly right. Just look in the back of our media guide and you'll see every season going back to 1884. Programs go through cycles. I note a power named Georgia Southern has 'fallen' on hard times with 'mediocre' seasons of 7-4, 9-3, 8-4 and 3-8 the past four seasons--somewhat similar to Lehigh's 'drop off' during the same period: 8-3, 9-3, 8-3 and 6-5. IF Lehigh can get turned around, it can still go 7-4 or 6-5--resulting in a winning season for the TENTH year in a row, which would be a school record. Lehigh is in a bit of transition with new coaches and shift in philosophy. There will likely be some personnel changes after this year, but overall until this year plays out everything is up for grabs. I competitive leagues, it doesn't take much for a shift to occur. Gilmore now in his third year has been able to recruit 'his type' and install 'his way'. Massella has a little jump due to being a HC elsewhere. Having worn the Brown & White, I am quite chagrinned about what has happened the past three weeks. However, having grown up with a football coach and played many years, I have seen these cycles revolve with most programs. It's learning how to deal with the choppy seas that determines whether a program starts to sink or learns to bail together and right the ship. IF a 'down year' for us is going 6-5, again, with the expectation that Coen is following a plan with what we believe to be some very good youngster waiting in the wings, then most can accept that. I do not see this period of Lehigh football being attributable to the AI at all..the differences are not significant enough to make a difference between what I see are comparable athletes.
The SAT's have nothing to do with the flat emotional approach Lehigh has shown.
I would have the Lehigh team all in attendance this Friday at the funeral for past HC and AD Bill Leckonby. Soak up what 'Being Lehigh' is all about while sitting in Packer Chapel and ponder the tradition of excellence the "Leck" created during his tenure.

Condolences to the Lehigh family on the death of Leckonby. From what I understand and have read, he was a class act all the way.

[Go...gate]

I've also heard that on the heels of being named by Newsweek as one of the 25 "Hottest Colleges in America," Fordham will probably receive in the area of 25,000 applications during this admission cycle and will ultimately report an acceptance rate in the higher 30 percent range with at least another 20 points higher on its average SATs.

So there is no school in the PL whose AI is increasing at a faster rate than Fordham. And yet Fordham football is also rapidly improving.

No question as to your calculations regarding the benefit to Fordham (which, by the way, it richly deserves). Colgate experienced a similar bump, not yet reflected in the numbers, as a result of being a named a "New Ivy" last year.

[Franks Tanks]

What's faulty logic? My point is simply that Fordham's average SAT is rising and the same time its football fortunes are rising.

I never said other schools in the PL don't have AIs that are increasing. I simply trying to point out that you can't use a rising AI as an excuse for a once lofty program falling to the middle of the pack when other programs have seen an increase in AI and have not fallen on hard times.

As for Fordham's yield, it too will continue to increase as misperceptions of its Bronx neighborhood are corrected. I don't understand your response. I think as a graduate of a fellow Jesuit school you'd be happy to see Fordham receive the acclaim that we both know has been overdue. It was less then 30 years ago that it was feared Fordham would have to shut down its operations in the Bronx if it was going to survive. And today it is thriving.

It is a testament to Fordham's strength as an institution that it stuck it out in the Bronx and is now thriving. Schools of lesser strength or notoriety may not have survived (take a look at the fate of Upsala College, once a competitive school in East Orange, New Jersey forced to close due to its location in a troubled neighborhood).

Don't think that the threat to Fordham wasn't real or is being exaggerated in retrospect. NYU abandoned its flagship campus location in the Bronx and centralized its operations in Greenwich Village under a similar fear of bankruptcy in the early 1970s.

I would think a proud graduate of a great Jesuit school would be pleased to see Fordham, the Jesuit presence in the greatest city in the world, achieve stature as a first-tier university. New Yorkers have long known about Fordham but now the rest of the country is discovering Fordham too.

I am well aware that as Fordham battled to survive in the 1970s, the fortunes of Georgetown increased dramatically. Ask yourself, however, if Georgetown would have prospered so if it were commonly said that the "worst neighborhoods in America were directly south of 'Georgetown Road.'" Or if Charlotte Street were merely a few blocks away from your campus and President Carter stood on the corner there one day and declared it the worst ghetto in the country.

PS-- You may want to read this article from the New York Times which ran recently on the 30th anniversary of President Carter's visit to Charlotte Street:

In the Bronx, Blight Gave Way to Renewal (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/nyregion/05charlotte.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

Joe this is interesting stuff--as a socioligy minor in college I was and am deeply interesed in class issues--especially the makeup of majopr cities and urban blight and renewal. Do you know where I can find additional stories about the struggles of The Bronx and Fordham's issues in coping? Also had no idea about NYU --

[DFW HOYA]

As for Fordham's yield, it too will continue to increase as misperceptions of its Bronx neighborhood are corrected. I don't understand your response. I think as a graduate of a fellow Jesuit school you'd be happy to see Fordham receive the acclaim that we both know has been overdue. It was less then 30 years ago that it was feared Fordham would have to shut down its operations in the Bronx if it was going to survive. And today it is thriving.

No issue with acclaim due Fordham, just that application growth in the Internet age is not the first reflection of a university's stature.



Don't think that the threat to Fordham wasn't real or is being exaggerated in retrospect. NYU abandoned its flagship campus location in the Bronx and centralized its operations in Greenwich Village under a similar fear of bankruptcy in the early 1970s.

This has faced a lot of schools, but it's not always based on location. BC nearly went insolvent in the early 1970's, and Georgetown was twice put on a D&B "credit watch" list earlier this decade.



I would think a proud graduate of a great Jesuit school would be pleased to see Fordham, the Jesuit presence in the greatest city in the world, achieve stature as a first-tier university. New Yorkers have long known about Fordham but now the rest of the country is discovering Fordham too.

For Fordham to join a "first-tier", begins with endowment. Catholic schools are traditionally endowment-poor and need to be at a much higher level to give it the standing other schools enjoy.



I am well aware that as Fordham battled to survive in the 1970s, the fortunes of Georgetown increased dramatically. Ask yourself, however, if Georgetown would have prospered so if it were commonly said that the "worst neighborhoods in America were directly south of 'Georgetown Road.'"

Well, it did. In the years prior to World War II, Georgetown was considered a slum in Washington, an abandoned river port. "Georgetown was home to a lumber yard, a cement works, the Washington Flour mill, and a meat rendering plant, and its skyline was dominated by the smokestacks of a garbage incinerator and the twin stacks of the power generating plant for the D.C. Transit streetcar system, located at the foot of Wisconsin Avenue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown,_Washington,_D.C.

[carney2]

LFN, are you going to wear your "Kick Me" sign to THE Game? You obviously haven't been pummeled enough.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, are you going to wear your "Kick Me" sign to THE Game? You obviously haven't been pummeled enough.

xlolx xlolx xlolx

[JoltinJoe]

No issue with acclaim due Fordham, just that application growth in the Internet age is not the first reflection of a university's stature.



This has faced a lot of schools, but it's not always based on location. BC nearly went insolvent in the early 1970's, and Georgetown was twice put on a D&B "credit watch" list earlier this decade.



For Fordham to join a "first-tier", begins with endowment. Catholic schools are traditionally endowment-poor and need to be at a much higher level to give it the standing other schools enjoy.



Well, it did. In the years prior to World War II, Georgetown was considered a slum in Washington, an abandoned river port. "Georgetown was home to a lumber yard, a cement works, the Washington Flour mill, and a meat rendering plant, and its skyline was dominated by the smokestacks of a garbage incinerator and the twin stacks of the power generating plant for the D.C. Transit streetcar system, located at the foot of Wisconsin Avenue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown,_Washington,_D.C.

You protest too much. But now I get it. I should be impressed that a Georgetown grad is feeling concerned about Fordham.xlolx

Update: Fordham endowment at $514 M and anticipated to be at least $1B by 2011. Within the next year or so, Fordham will receive $250 M from the sale of a Lincoln Center property, which brings this goal easily within reach.