Who made a mistake jumping to FBS?

[Smendy]

I had always wanted a see a list that noted which schools have made the leap from 1-aa to 1-a, over the the decade or so, but never bothered to follow up on it.

Yesterday, while surfing, I saw draftdaddy list 16 schools that have made the leap since 1992 in their thursday blog notes:

http://draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

Point? Out of the 16 schools draftdaddy listed, I felt the vast majority made a "great move" by jumping: Boise, Connecticut, South Florida, Marshall (pre-C-USA) and Nevada are the most notable....

Matter of fact, the only jumper that might regret the upward move is Idaho, who used to win games like crazy in 1-aa and have an electric atmosphere in the stands in the 1990's.


P.S: Being based in the Northeast, I'd love to see Hofstra and Massachusets follow Buffalo and make the leap.....the Minutemen might, but I doubt I'll ever see the Pride jump xeyebrowx

[GannonFan]

The Florida schools were never truly FCS schools - sure they were here, but even at the creation of their football teams FCS was known to have been a very short stop on the way to FBS-land.

I think the real winners, not counting the Florida schools, have been Boise and UConn, with Boise being the one that really did it based on just sheer grit and strength of program. UConn always had an advantage of instant-BCS conference affiliation that could not be replicated by anyone else.

As for everyone else, it's been a mixed bad. I'd even argue that for a school like Marshall it's been a net-zero move - their attendance hasn't increased since moving to FBS and the fanbase, as evidenced by that year of Marshall being stuck with tons of bowl tickets they couldn't sell, has tired a bit of the mediocre bowls they got invited to. Plus, while they got the WVU game because of their move, they also lost the yearly rivalries with their SoCon brethren. Marshall has not been the success story that some make it out to be.

[nwFL Griz]

Idaho enjoyed success for quite a few years after the jump....probably because they were in the Sun Belt conference. I think moving to the WAC (and better competetion) is what has caused their lack-of-success the last few years.

I don't think any of the current Sun Belt teams are completely content with their level of on-field of success, except maybe Troy. Obviously a team like FIU can say they are pleased....what with a new stadium coming and all, but on the field they are a perrenial FBS doormat.

Being a Griz fan there are times I want them to jump, but then reality sets in, and I'm not sure it would be worth trading the level of success we've enjoyed for a shot at a bowl and shared conference revenue.

[appstate38]

Middle Tenn. State comes to mind= Doormat
Marshall= initial success, now doormat
Western Ky = not a promising start...
Troy= Do they still play football????


Boise St. = Very successful
Using them as the measuring stick, all else kinda fall short IMO!

[89Hen]

Notre Dame :p

[UDBlueLotFan]

Without reading the link, Middle Tenn. comes to mind. Agree about Marshall..too bad they jumped up before everyone could pay them back for dominating those yrs.xsmashx

[appstate38]

Sometimes I wonder if those schools would reconsider and come back to the FCS and play real Championship football.

[89Hen]

Middle Tenn. State comes to mind= Doormat
xoopsx xnonox xoopsx Now you've done it... here comes the two resident idiots from MTSU... xoopsx wait for it, wait for it...

[McNeese_beat]

I had always wanted a see a list that noted which schools have made the leap from 1-aa to 1-a, over the the decade or so, but never bothered to follow up on it.

Yesterday, while surfing, I saw draftdaddy list 16 schools that have made the leap since 1992 in their thursday blog notes:

http://draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

Point? Out of the 16 schools draftdaddy listed, I felt the vast majority made a "great move" by jumping: Boise, Connecticut, South Florida, Marshall (pre-C-USA) and Nevada are the most notable....

Matter of fact, the only jumper that might regret the upward move is Idaho, who used to win games like crazy in 1-aa and have an electric atmosphere in the stands in the 1990's.


P.S: Being based in the Northeast, I'd love to see Hofstra and Massachusets follow Buffalo and make the leap.....the Minutemen might, but I doubt I'll ever see the Pride jump xeyebrowx
From his list:

Arkansas State Indians – Sun Belt (1992)
Never has made a bowl. Languishing in the Sun Belt

Nevada-Reno Wolfpack – Western Athletic Conference (1992)
If it wasn't for Boise giving them a chance to play a Sunday night TV game, would anyone even know they had a team?

Louisiana-Monroe Warhawks – Sun Belt (1994)
Just awful

North Texas Mean Green – Sun Belt (1995)
Enjoying giving up 79 to Oklahoma, 66 to Arkansas

Central Florida Golden Knights –Conference USA (1996)
It's I-AA existence should not even count. The program was created with a blueprint for going I-A that involved a brief stopover in I-AA.

Boise State Broncos – Western Athletic Conference (1996)
The rare exception

Alabama-Birmingham Blazers – Conference USA (1996)
Same as Central Florida

Idaho Vandals – Western Athletic Conference (1997)
I remember when they were good...back when they used to play McNeese in the I-AA playoffs.

Marshall Thundering Herd – Confrence USA (1997)
I remember when they were good...but I don't think many would begrudge their move. They had resources and they were able to land in a solid conference.

Buffalo Bulls – Mid American Conference (1999)
Why didn't they just drop to Division II?

Middle Tennessee State Blue Raiders – Sun Belt (1999)
A middle of the pack OVC team becomes a top of the pack Sun Belt team. What does that tell you?

Connecticut Huskies – Big East (2000)
If there is a blueprint for moving up this is it...you just sit back and have a BCS conference BEG you to move up and join.

South Florida Bulls – Big East (2001)
See Central Florida, UAB

Troy State Trojans – Sun Belt (2001)
When you cover McNeese, which is unbeaten all-time against the Sun Belt Conference, it's hard to get impressed by the team that is currently the best in the SBC.

Florida Atlantic Owls – Sun Belt (2006)

Florida International Panthers – Sun Belt (2006)

[McNeese_beat]

I had always wanted a see a list that noted which schools have made the leap from 1-aa to 1-a, over the the decade or so, but never bothered to follow up on it.

Yesterday, while surfing, I saw draftdaddy list 16 schools that have made the leap since 1992 in their thursday blog notes:

http://draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

Point? Out of the 16 schools draftdaddy listed, I felt the vast majority made a "great move" by jumping: Boise, Connecticut, South Florida, Marshall (pre-C-USA) and Nevada are the most notable....

Matter of fact, the only jumper that might regret the upward move is Idaho, who used to win games like crazy in 1-aa and have an electric atmosphere in the stands in the 1990's.


P.S: Being based in the Northeast, I'd love to see Hofstra and Massachusets follow Buffalo and make the leap.....the Minutemen might, but I doubt I'll ever see the Pride jump xeyebrowx
From his list:

Arkansas State Indians – Sun Belt (1992)
Languishing in the Sun Belt. Enjoying occasional trip to New Orleans Bowl

Nevada-Reno Wolfpack – Western Athletic Conference (1992)
If it wasn't for Boise giving them a chance to play a Sunday night TV game, would anyone even know they had a team?

Louisiana-Monroe Warhawks – Sun Belt (1994)
Just awful

North Texas Mean Green – Sun Belt (1995)
Enjoying giving up 79 to Oklahoma, 66 to Arkansas

Central Florida Golden Knights –Conference USA (1996)
It's I-AA existence should not even count. The program was created with a blueprint for going I-A that involved a brief stopover in I-AA.

Boise State Broncos – Western Athletic Conference (1996)
The rare exception

Alabama-Birmingham Blazers – Conference USA (1996)
Same as Central Florida

Idaho Vandals – Western Athletic Conference (1997)
I remember when they were good...back when they used to play McNeese in the I-AA playoffs.

Marshall Thundering Herd – Confrence USA (1997)
I remember when they were good...but I don't think many would begrudge their move. They had resources and they were able to land in a solid conference.

Buffalo Bulls – Mid American Conference (1999)
Why didn't they just drop to Division II?

Middle Tennessee State Blue Raiders – Sun Belt (1999)
A middle of the pack OVC team becomes a top of the pack Sun Belt team. What does that tell you?

Connecticut Huskies – Big East (2000)
If there is a blueprint for moving up this is it...you just sit back and have a BCS conference BEG you to move up and join.

South Florida Bulls – Big East (2001)
See Central Florida, UAB

Troy State Trojans – Sun Belt (2001)
When you cover McNeese, which is unbeaten all-time against the Sun Belt Conference, it's hard to get impressed by the team that is currently the best in the SBC.

Florida Atlantic Owls – Sun Belt (2006)

Florida International Panthers – Sun Belt (2006)

[AZGrizFan]

Matter of fact, the only jumper that might regret the upward move is Idaho, who used to win games like crazy in 1-aa and have an electric atmosphere in the stands in the 1990's.




Having had the...ahem....."pleasure"....of attending the University of Idaho in the late 80's, the atmosphere in the stands was anything but electric. Yeah, it was good while Dennis Erickson was there, but when Gilbertson took over, things went to hell in a handbasket pretty damned fast. They won games, and were competitive, but it wasn't the same....I'm sure the powers that be are STILL trying to figure out why they made the move....

I will say this though: I feel fortunate to have had the pleasure to watch Dennis Erickson-coached football teams and Tim Floyd-coached basketball teams while I was there. xnodx xnodx xnodx

[Smendy]

Middle Tenn. State comes to mind= Doormat
Marshall= initial success, now doormat
Western Ky = not a promising start...
Troy= Do they still play football????


Boise St. = Very successful
Using them as the measuring stick, all else kinda fall short IMO!

First of all, good points made by all, this thread is a good read....


Appstate, Troy's actually been real good in recent years -- they dismantled Oklahoma State this season on ESPN, they've beat some other BCS schools in recent years and usually make a Bowl game.........Troy is now a must stop for NFL scouts, too......Demarcus Ware, Brannon Condren, now with Leodis McKelvin, Haugabrook, ect....

West.Ky isn't I-A yet, but you are correct -- they have taking some mean beatings in there transition year..... I guess like a lot of these schools -- the fatter pay checks** will help sooth some pain for the Hilltoppers? xrulesx



**I believe wins over 1-aa (fcs) don't count towards reaching the needed 6 wins for Bowl eligibility, so even the schools that have jumped that are struggling --Buffalo, Idaho, North Texas-- are getting much fatter paychecks to play the Nebraska and Florida States (which now struggle to reach 7 wins) than the 1-aa schools.....

[Sawtooth]

Idaho enjoyed success for quite a few years after the jump....probably because they were in the Sun Belt conference. I think moving to the WAC (and better competetion) is what has caused their lack-of-success the last few years.

Idaho has only had 3 winning seasons since becoming an FBS (I-A) school. Their first year in I-A (1996) saw them with a record of 6-5, but 4 of those wins came against I-AA schools. The other two seasons in which they had winning seasons (1998 & 1999) saw them with 2 wins against I-AA teams each of those seasons. I've always argued that one of the reasons those last two winning seasons occurred was because the teams were comprised of Juniors and Seniors who were recruited (at the time) to a very good I-AA team.

This will be their 8th straight losing season.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Time will tell if Boise State's cinderella season last year will get them anywhere. Other than them and UConn, the reward for most schools has been minimal at best.

[ButlerGSU]

Sometimes I wonder if those schools would reconsider and come back to the FCS and play real Championship football.

Nah, fans wouldn't allow it.

[Black and Gold Express]

Sometimes I wonder if those schools would reconsider and come back to the FCS and play real Championship football.

Really? You really think for more than one second they'd consider dropping down a level?

Talk about instant program suicide. From a PR standpoint, you've admitted defeat, and taken away just about every ounce of luster the program ever had. You'll have to start over to rebuild a fanbase, I guarantee you you will have alienated most of the casual fanbase by making the move, and since you no longer have the conference affiliation dollars coming in that all I-A conferences have, you've effectively wiped out your bankroll. Thirdly, if you are a school that competes with area I-A schools for talent, you just lost a lot of chances to even get in the door of the better recruits. That extra "A" makes a big difference because of perception.

The fact is most fans of I-A football don't give two ****s about the playoffs, in terms of being a reason to leave. It's about recognition, and sad as it is, being a doormat in I-A will get you more credibility on a national level than being the elite of I-AA ever will. That has been proven time and again.

So, in conclusion, I don't think we will ever see a program voluntarily drop down to I-AA.

[appstate38]

Really? You really think for more than one second they'd consider dropping down a level?

Talk about instant program suicide. From a PR standpoint, you've admitted defeat, and taken away just about every ounce of luster the program ever had. You'll have to start over to rebuild a fanbase, I guarantee you you will have alienated most of the casual fanbase by making the move, and since you no longer have the conference affiliation dollars coming in that all I-A conferences have, you've effectively wiped out your bankroll. Thirdly, if you are a school that competes with area I-A schools for talent, you just lost a lot of chances to even get in the door of the better recruits. That extra "A" makes a big difference because of perception.

The fact is most fans of I-A football don't give two ****s about the playoffs, in terms of being a reason to leave. It's about recognition, and sad as it is, being a doormat in I-A will get you more credibility on a national level than being the elite of I-AA ever will. That has been proven time and again.

So, in conclusion, I don't think we will ever see a program voluntarily drop down to I-AA.

What kind of casual fan base can you really have if you are constantly getting the crap kicked out of you on a weekly basis??? All I am saying is yeah the money maybe be great but who really wants to be a losing program every year. Only to hope for that one magical season where you catch lightening in a bottle.

That is not for me. Let me be a big fish in a lake than be bait in the ocean.

[nwFL Griz]

First of all, good points made by all, this thread is a good read....


Appstate, Troy's actually been real good in recent years -- they dismantled Oklahoma State this season on ESPN, they've beat some other BCS schools in recent years and usually make a Bowl game.........Troy is now a must stop for NFL scouts, too......Demarcus Ware, Brannon Condren, now with Leodis McKelvin, Haugabrook, ect....

West.Ky isn't I-A yet, but you are correct -- they have taking some mean beatings in there transition year..... I guess like a lot of these schools -- the fatter pay checks** will help sooth some pain for the Hilltoppers? xrulesx



**I believe wins over 1-aa (fcs) don't count towards reaching the needed 6 wins for Bowl eligibility, so even the schools that have jumped that are struggling --Buffalo, Idaho, North Texas-- are getting much fatter paychecks to play the Nebraska and Florida States (which now struggle to reach 7 wins) than the 1-aa schools.....


Actually, with the new rules, each FBS team can count one FCS win per year toward bowl eligibility. Used to be one every four years.

[BigApp]

I'd even argue that for a school like Marshall it's been a net-zero move - their attendance hasn't increased since moving to FBS...

Marshall University:
Last 5 years I-AA average attendance=21,283
Last 5 years I-A averaage attendance=25,977

That's a 22% difference, on average, for EACH home game.

Nope. no increase at all.

And let's not forget, they pick up a cool $60k from revenue sharing for each CUSA football game (including Rice vs. Houston) being televised.

Care to show me an FCS conference that can match that?

They're on ESPN primetime national TV this weekend against Southern Miss. You watching?

[BigApp]

Time will tell if Boise State's cinderella season last year will get them anywhere.

http://videogame2play.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ps3ncca08front.jpg

[GannonFan]

Marshall University:
Last 5 years I-AA average attendance=21,283
Last 5 years I-A averaage attendance=25,977

That's a 22% difference, on average, for EACH home game.

Nope. no increase at all.

And let's not forget, they pick up a cool $60k from revenue sharing for each CUSA football game (including Rice vs. Houston) being televised.

Care to show me an FCS conference that can match that?

They're on ESPN primetime national TV this weekend against Southern Miss. You watching?

I'd actually like to see the increase in attendance in terms of stadium capacity as well - they did bulk the place up in the move to IA and they don't fill it now. In addition, the attendance jumped up when they first joined the I-A ranks and has been slipping of late. And how do you explain the steep dropoff in bowl ticket purchases that has been a steady plunge since the novelty of it wore off after the first season or two? Hey, no doubt they make a little more money being in FBS than FCS, but it's not a goldmine either. Plus Marshall's move to FBS hurt most of their non-revenue sports too. And then, competitively, where have they gone? They aren't any better than a top FCS team right now so they haven't really improved "on the field" since their hey days. They get the once a year big game against WVU and another once a year "big game" against a Kansas St or someone like that, but no one would say they've "really made it".

As for watching Marshall on TV against Southern Miss, no, I probably won't be watching. Seeing how the game is on Sunday at 8PM, it will be going up against the Steeler/Bronco game (I have Big Ben and Najeh Davenport on my fantasy team plus I'm going up against Willie Parker this week), it will be the last football game after a weekend's worth of football (I do tend to tire after 3-4 days straight of watching), my wife has the TiVo set for Desperate Housewives, and oh, yes, Game 7 of the Red Sox/Indians ALCS may be on as well. Seeing how the Marshall game will be lucky to approach a 1 rating, I'm going to guess that most people aren't going to be watching it either.

[FCS Go!]

I'd actually like to see the increase in attendance in terms of stadium capacity as well - they did bulk the place up in the move to IA and they don't fill it now. In addition, the attendance jumped up when they first joined the I-A ranks and has been slipping of late. And how do you explain the steep dropoff in bowl ticket purchases that has been a steady plunge since the novelty of it wore off after the first season or two? Hey, no doubt they make a little more money being in FBS than FCS, but it's not a goldmine either. Plus Marshall's move to FBS hurt most of their non-revenue sports too. And then, competitively, where have they gone? They aren't any better than a top FCS team right now so they haven't really improved "on the field" since their hey days. They get the once a year big game against WVU and another once a year "big game" against a Kansas St or someone like that, but no one would say they've "really made it".

As for watching Marshall on TV against Southern Miss, no, I probably won't be watching. Seeing how the game is on Sunday at 8PM, it will be going up against the Steeler/Bronco game (I have Big Ben and Najeh Davenport on my fantasy team plus I'm going up against Willie Parker this week), it will be the last football game after a weekend's worth of football (I do tend to tire after 3-4 days straight of watching), my wife has the TiVo set for Desperate Housewives, and oh, yes, Game 7 of the Red Sox/Indians ALCS may be on as well. Seeing how the Marshall game will be lucky to approach a 1 rating, I'm going to guess that most people aren't going to be watching it either.

+1xthumbsupx

[Smendy]

Actually, with the new rules, each FBS team can count one FCS win per year toward bowl eligibility. Used to be one every four years.

Thank you for the clarification Griz, it's a big help for me....

I guess this new imformation makes my theory that jumping to the FBS makes great finanacial sense (based on the games counting towards bowl eligibilty) is way off base.....xnonox

This means the FCS schools get the same amount of cash for the "wood-shed games", as Buffalo, Temple, Duke, Eastern Michigan, Idaho and the other I-A bottom feeders?

[bkrownd]

NE La St is the real big loser. Oh wait, it's Louisiana-Somewhere now. Oh, and Middle Tennessee State at the moment.

Nevertheless, even when they're sucking like Idaho - they still get to recruit kids by saying "we're going to play U$C in the Colesium", "we're going to play Washington in Seattle", "we're going to play Hawai'i in Honolulu", etc. Far more impressive to easily impressed youngsters than "we're going to play Idaho State in a barn in Pocatello, and Southern Utah in the middle of the desert, and if we're lucky we get to play in Chattanooooga!" "Uh...coach? Poca-what, chatta-who, coach?"

[Syntax Error]

West.Ky isn't I-A yet, but you are correct -- they have taking some mean beatings in there transition year..... I guess like a lot of these schools -- the fatter pay checks** will help sooth some pain for the Hilltoppers?...Don't forget they have to pay fatter paychecks to FBS visitors too. Oh yeah, they only have one this year.

Sat, Sep 1 at Florida, Gainesville, Fla. L, 49-3
Thu, Sep 20 at Middle Tenn., Murfreesboro, Tenn. W, 20-17
Sat, Sep 29 at Bowling Green, Bowling Green, Ohio L, 41-21
Sat, Oct 13 at Ball State, Muncie, Ind. L, 35-12
Sat, Nov 10 Troy, (Hc) Bowling Green, Ky. 4 pm
Sat, Nov 24 at North Texas, Denton, Texas 3 pm

[Blue Hen Nation]

Three that come to mind are Buffalo, Florida Atlantic and Western Kentucky.

[WWII]

Buffalo seems to be improving.

[lizrdgizrd]

Buffalo seems to be improving.
That's tough not to do. xrolleyesx

[Russ B]

Nevada-Reno Wolfpack – Western Athletic Conference (1992)
If it wasn't for Boise giving them a chance to play a Sunday night TV game, would anyone even know they had a team?

Yes.

But they are "local" to us. :)

They had a hell of a game against Northwestern last year, too. Fun team to watch. xcoolx

[AppMan]

Marshall University:
Last 5 years I-AA average attendance=21,283
Last 5 years I-A averaage attendance=25,977

That's a 22% difference, on average, for EACH home game.

Nope. no increase at all.

And let's not forget, they pick up a cool $60k from revenue sharing for each CUSA football game (including Rice vs. Houston) being televised.

Care to show me an FCS conference that can match that?

They're on ESPN primetime national TV this weekend against Southern Miss. You watching?

There you go again debunking opinion with facts! Will you never learn?

[elkmcc]

Boise St. = Very successful
Using them as the measuring stick, all else kinda fall short IMO!

I think you may be forgetting USF. Has any of the above teams ever been ranked as high as USF is this week at #2? Even though So. Florida lost to Rutgers last night they looked tough.

[JDC325]

Marshall University:
Last 5 years I-AA average attendance=21,283
Last 5 years I-A averaage attendance=25,977

That's a 22% difference, on average, for EACH home game.

Nope. no increase at all.

And let's not forget, they pick up a cool $60k from revenue sharing for each CUSA football game (including Rice vs. Houston) being televised.

Care to show me an FCS conference that can match that?

They're on ESPN primetime national TV this weekend against Southern Miss. You watching?


Winning or not most are doing alot better than they would be in the FCS today.

[lizrdgizrd]

I think you may be forgetting USF. Has any of the above teams ever been ranked as high as USF is this week at #2? Even though So. Florida lost to Rutgers last night they looked tough.
USF doesn't really count since their plan only included FCS as a short stop before going FBS. xpeacex

[SO ILLmatic]

Nevada-Reno Wolfpack – Western Athletic Conference (1992)
If it wasn't for Boise giving them a chance to play a Sunday night TV game, would anyone even know they had a team?


If you don't know that Nevada has a football team, then you probably have not been following college football very long and/or your oblivious to schools outside of your local region

[TroyTrojan]

First of all, good points made by all, this thread is a good read....


Appstate, Troy's actually been real good in recent years -- they dismantled Oklahoma State this season on ESPN, they've beat some other BCS schools in recent years and usually make a Bowl game.........Troy is now a must stop for NFL scouts, too......Demarcus Ware, Brannon Condren, now with Leodis McKelvin, Haugabrook, ect....

West.Ky isn't I-A yet, but you are correct -- they have taking some mean beatings in there transition year..... I guess like a lot of these schools -- the fatter pay checks** will help sooth some pain for the Hilltoppers? xrulesx

**I believe wins over 1-aa (fcs) don't count towards reaching the needed 6 wins for Bowl eligibility, so even the schools that have jumped that are struggling --Buffalo, Idaho, North Texas-- are getting much fatter paychecks to play the Nebraska and Florida States (which now struggle to reach 7 wins) than the 1-aa schools.....

Currently, most mid majors receive app. $750,000 per game. In fact, Ohio State will pay Troy $800k (2008); + South Carolina; $800k (2010).

NFL scouts visiting Troy: Sep. 2007: "Several NFL scouts were on hand in Troy Wednesday afternoon, observing as the Trojans practiced in shoulder pads, helmets and shorts. A quick count revealed scouts from Green Bay, Denver, Washington, Dallas and New Orleans.", Troy Messenger

[McNeese_beat]

If you don't know that Nevada has a football team, then you probably have not been following college football very long and/or your oblivious to schools outside of your local region

But one of the main reasons to move to I-A/FBS, and bringing in the additional expenses, is to increase exposure. In other words, if Nevada is not a known commodity to a passive fan, what point is it to play at the highest level?

I would argue that Nevada is, at best, marginally less obscure than it was when it was in the Big Sky Conference.

Also, I should point out to those who make an argument based on increased revenue that playing with 22 more football scholarships and 40-something more additional scholarships overall brings in significantly higher costs as well. And costs in the form of additional NON-REVENUE producing sports.

The difference in revenue produced has to be PROFOUND for the move to be cost-effective, IMO. Marshall's move was wise because it had a realistic chance at becoming a member of conferences that generate TV money, NCAA basketball tournament money (beyond the first round) and attractive bowl money. The same is true of UConn.

But in most cases, programs move up with little realistic prospect of any serious bowl, TV or NCAA tournament money.

[Mr. Tiger]

Idaho, Louisiana-Monroe, and Florida International. Middle Tennessee State is close, but I would give them a little more time. Idaho and Louisiana-Monroe haven't gone to bowl games or had winning seasons. Florida International made the move too soon.

Troy and Marshall have had some success and big wins in the past, so I wouldn't say they made a mistake.

[blur2005]

The fact that Nevada used to be known as Nevada-Reno makes me think that it was probably a good move for the Wolf Pack.

Since the Florida schools don't count in the equation (yet, for FIU, FAU), I'm going to say Boise State and Nevada have been the only two true winners, particularly Boise State, who had their QB on the cover of the best-selling college sports game, as shown earlier in this thread. Aside from those two, Marshall has had a slight net gain out of their move but the decline in attendance and the poor play makes me think they will slowly regress to "zero net yards," to make a football analogy. Most of the Sun Belt schools were foolish to make the move, even with increased exposure. When UL-Lafayette is 1-5 on the year, but 1-0 in conference, as they were earlier this season, that just makes all the McNeese fans laugh (along with the rest of the FCS).

EDIT: I forgot about Troy (State), a team that is about to dominate the Sun Belt for years to come (one could ask how imipressive that is) and have beaten legitimate teams at the FBS level, unlike their fellow Sun Belt brethren.

[Smendy]

I'd agree, to a degree, with the poster that mentioned Florida Atlantic as being a school that could regret jumping, but they've made some progress -- beat a rebuilding Minnesota team and there quarterback (Rusty Smith) has garnered some national attention....also, Howard Schnellenberger brings instant recognition by his name alone.

Still, it's weird to watch them them in that 1970's era pro soccer stadium with few fans in the seats..even for the ESPN games....:o

[BigApp]

I'd actually like to see the increase in attendance in terms of stadium capacity as well - they did bulk the place up in the move to IA and they don't fill it now. In addition, the attendance jumped up when they first joined the I-A ranks and has been slipping of late.

And how do you explain the steep dropoff in bowl ticket purchases that has been a steady plunge since the novelty of it wore off after the first season or two? Hey, no doubt they make a little more money being in FBS than FCS, but it's not a goldmine either. Plus Marshall's move to FBS hurt most of their non-revenue sports too. And then, competitively, where have they gone? They aren't any better than a top FCS team right now so they haven't really improved "on the field" since their hey days. They get the once a year big game against WVU and another once a year "big game" against a Kansas St or someone like that, but no one would say they've "really made it".

As for watching Marshall on TV against Southern Miss, no, I probably won't be watching. Seeing how the game is on Sunday at 8PM, it will be going up against the Steeler/Bronco game (I have Big Ben and Najeh Davenport on my fantasy team plus I'm going up against Willie Parker this week), it will be the last football game after a weekend's worth of football (I do tend to tire after 3-4 days straight of watching), my wife has the TiVo set for Desperate Housewives, and oh, yes, Game 7 of the Red Sox/Indians ALCS may be on as well. Seeing how the Marshall game will be lucky to approach a 1 rating, I'm going to guess that most people aren't going to be watching it either.

GF, wtf are you talking about? xeyebrowx are you drinking? xlolx

Marshall:
Last 2 years in I-AA average attendance=20,675
First 2 years in I-A average attendance = 25,593
Last 2 seasons average attendance = 26,271

the USM/Marsha game might get a 1.0 rating, but IIRC our championship ratings don't get much higher than that. (Could be wrong about that though)

[BigApp]

Winning or not most are doing alot better than they would be in the FCS today.

http://www.msquadvpd.com/resources/_wsb_151x191_Jack+Webb+2.jpg

[JALMOND]

In reading these posts, I still lean to Idaho. I can remember following the Big Sky in the 80's and Idaho was back then in the Big Sky what Montana is now in the Big Sky, the team everyone loved to beat and the team everyone came out gunning for. You knew you'd always have a great game with the Vandals. Then they left, hoping to follow Boise State. Problem was Boise did not want them to follow the Broncos. Idaho found themselves with no takers and ended up with a group of Gulf Coast schools in the Sun Belt (try getting from Moscow to Miami sometime). Plus the renovations required for the move to DI forced them to play their home games at Washington State. They finally made it to the WAC, but time will tell at what cost.

A stay in the Big Sky for Idaho? A natural rival in EWU, as well as the perfect foe for Montana and Montana State. In state more of a rivalry exists between Northern Idaho (Moscow) and Southern Idaho (Pocatello) than either one had with Boise (the city, not the school). Idaho also was a charter member of the Big Sky and is the only one of those schools to leave the conference and still play football (the only other charter school to leave was Gonzaga).

Time will tell if Idaho can be as big a player in the FBS as they were in the old I-AA. Based on this thread, I'd have to say Idaho made the biggest mistake leaving the Big Sky.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'd agree, to a degree, with the poster that mentioned Florida Atlantic as being a school that could regret jumping, but they've made some progress -- beat a rebuilding Minnesota team and there quarterback (Rusty Smith) has garnered some national attention....also, Howard Schnellenberger brings instant recognition by his name alone.

Still, it's weird to watch them them in that 1970's era pro soccer stadium with few fans in the seats..even for the ESPN games....:o

Both FAU and FIU were born with the immediate intention of going FBS (I-A at the time). They lasted in our division for all of 4 years, and of their 8 total seasons, only FAU's last was worthwhile. The Owls went 11-1, got an at-large bid to the playoffs, and advanced to the Semis, where they were unceremoniously kicked out of then I-AA for good by the mighty Raiders of Colgate :D

FIU has always stunk, and they only thing they've succeeded in doing since going FBS is get their name all over SportsCenter for brawling with Miami last year.

[813Jag]

The fact that Nevada used to be known as Nevada-Reno makes me think that it was probably a good move for the Wolf Pack.

Since the Florida schools don't count in the equation (yet, for FIU, FAU), I'm going to say Boise State and Nevada have been the only two true winners, particularly Boise State, who had their QB on the cover of the best-selling college sports game, as shown earlier in this thread. Aside from those two, Marshall has had a slight net gain out of their move but the decline in attendance and the poor play makes me think they will slowly regress to "zero net yards," to make a football analogy. Most of the Sun Belt schools were foolish to make the move, even with increased exposure. When UL-Lafayette is 1-5 on the year, but 1-0 in conference, as they were earlier this season, that just makes all the McNeese fans laugh (along with the rest of the FCS).

EDIT: I forgot about Troy (State), a team that is about to dominate the Sun Belt for years to come (one could ask how imipressive that is) and have beaten legitimate teams at the FBS level, unlike their fellow Sun Belt brethren.
ULL has been DI-A/FBS since 1978 (Which makes their situation even more sad). Louisiana-Monroe moved up from the Southland.

[FormerPokeCenter]

What really makes USL's situation sad is that they've been playing football for over 100 years....

And still nothing worthy of celebration....

[blukeys]

I think Temple made a mistake going to D-1 and they did that before the creation of I-AA.

[dbackjon]

I think Temple made a mistake going to D-1 and they did that before the creation of I-AA.

Don't look now, but Temple just won their third straight game...

[Mountain Panther]

Middle Tenn. State comes to mind= Doormat
Marshall= initial success, now doormat
Western Ky = not a promising start...
Troy= Do they still play football????


Boise St. = Very successful
Using them as the measuring stick, all else kinda fall short IMO!

Waaaaaay too early to put WKU in the failure category.

[Smendy]

Both FAU and FIU were born with the immediate intention of going FBS (I-A at the time). They lasted in our division for all of 4 years, and of their 8 total seasons, only FAU's last was worthwhile. The Owls went 11-1, got an at-large bid to the playoffs, and advanced to the Semis, where they were unceremoniously kicked out of then I-AA for good by the mighty Raiders of Colgate :D

FIU has always stunk, and they only thing they've succeeded in doing since going FBS is get their name all over SportsCenter for brawling with Miami last year.

Thank you Valley Raider.....I was watching FAU on ESPN U a for a few minutes and you can tell the program is looking up a bit, as the roster has some recognizable names (too ardent fans) and the players "look the part of being 1-a"....

Excellent point on FIU, who's really struggled.

[slycat]

Don't look now, but Temple just won their third straight game...

halfway to a bowl game xrotatehx

[Killtoppers90]

Waaaaaay too early to put WKU in the failure category.

Thank you for that. We are in our first of two year transitions and not even a full FBS member yet. So that decision is WAY to premature.

[TexasTerror]

From the BeltBoard (Sun Belt fan site)...

Year to date (*= # of home games played)

22,087 - Troy (***)
21,160 - ASU (***)
19,726 - UNT (**)
18,372 - ULL (*****)
18,352 - Muts (****)
14,421 - FAU (***)
14,308 - ULM (***)
8.962 - FIU (**)

17,532 - WKU (**)

[aust42]

Every team in the Sunbelt. Currently ranked behind two 1AA conferences (Colonial, Gateway) per the Saragin ratings. Their conference champion plays the 3rd place team from Conference USA in the New Orleans bowl. Only two out of eight Sunbelt schools currently have a winning record. Attendance figures never met the NCAA's old attendance requirement for 1A. Etc, etc, etc. Might as well have stayed in 1AA.

[Smendy]

From the BeltBoard (Sun Belt fan site)...

Year to date (*= # of home games played)

22,087 - Troy (***)
21,160 - ASU (***)
19,726 - UNT (**)
18,372 - ULL (*****)
18,352 - Muts (****)
14,421 - FAU (***)
14,308 - ULM (***)
8.962 - FIU (**)

17,532 - WKU (**)

Thanks for the figures Terror.

It's weird, I was reading an article about Eastern Michigan's "attendence woes" last year and the writer brought up the fact that the Eagles could be bounced from 1-A football at any time due to poor attendence (kind of like Temple was bounced from the Big East).

But it looks like the powers that be are not seriously enforcing the attendence requirments to stay in 1-a xcoffeex

[GeauxColonels]

Idaho enjoyed success for quite a few years after the jump....probably because they were in the Sun Belt conference. I think moving to the WAC (and better competetion) is what has caused their lack-of-success the last few years.

I don't think any of the current Sun Belt teams are completely content with their level of on-field of success, except maybe Troy. Obviously a team like FIU can say they are pleased....what with a new stadium coming and all, but on the field they are a perrenial FBS doormat.

Being a Griz fan there are times I want them to jump, but then reality sets in, and I'm not sure it would be worth trading the level of success we've enjoyed for a shot at a bowl and shared conference revenue.
Not quite. Idaho made the jump in 1997 and was in the Big West conference from then until 2000. In 2001, the Sun Belt started football and Idaho was in that conference through 2004. The Vandals then moved into the WAC in 2005. Here are the yearly records from 1997 through the present:

Big West Conference
1997: 5-6
1998: 9-3; Big West Champions; Defeated Southern Miss in the Humanitarian Bowl.
1999: 7-4
2000: 5-6

Sun Belt Conference
2001: 1-10; Only win @ home against ULM, 42-38; Loss to Montana in Missoula, 33-27
2002: 2-10
2003: 3-9
2004: 3-9

Western Athletic Conference
2005: 2-9
2006: 4-8


One conference title, one bowl game (in Idaho) and two winning seasons since making the move up. While in the Sun Belt, the team never won more than 3 games.

[BearsCountry]

None of those teams made a mistake. They might not see major winning on the field but off it is where they reap the benefits. Face it for Middle Tennesse is being in the Sun Belt better than the OVC. Duh. Is Troy better off in the Sun Belt than Atlantic Sun. Yeah. The WAC is better conference than the Big Sky, so Idaho made a good choice. Heck Buffalo went from the Mid-Con to the MAC.

Also its freaking hilarious that WKU is a flop even though its their first year. As soon as they get into full status they will become the top choice for expansion in the MAC or CUSA. I still thought it was dumb the MVC didnt add them to our league and bc of that is why they moved up.

[rufus]

BearsCountry makes a good point. Moving to FBS isn't always just about the football program. In those cases he mentioned the schools all experienced a basketball conference upgrade as well. The benefit of jumping to FBS is less clear for FCS schools that play all sports in the MVC or even CAA. I'm sure CUSA would love to add a school like Southern Illinois if the Salukis moved to FBS, but it would be a move in the wrong direction for their basketball program. At this point, the MVC and probably the CAA are both stronger basketball conferences than CUSA, MAC, WAC, or Sun Belt. Unless a MVC or CAA team is able to jump to a BCS conference or find a football only FBS conference, their basketball program is going to take a step backward.

If you're a Jacksonville State in the OVC or Texas State in the SLC, a move to FBS carries much less risk.

[BearsCountry]

I would take CUSA over the MVC, other than basketball its a stronger league in all-sports and even then its got the potential to be just as good.

[blukeys]

Don't look now, but Temple just won their third straight game...

Correct dback, but for the most part their long history in D-I has had more downs than ups. Even when they had some very competitive teams they still could not put fannies in the seats.

[saluki_in_ohio]

I'm sure CUSA would love to add a school like Southern Illinois if the Salukis moved to FBS, but it would be a move in the wrong direction for their basketball program. At this point, the MVC and probably the CAA are both stronger basketball conferences than CUSA, MAC, WAC, or Sun Belt. Unless a MVC or CAA team is able to jump to a BCS conference or find a football only FBS conference, their basketball program is going to take a step backward.

Agree that CUSA would be a step down in hoops, but I don't see CUSA inviting us (SIU) to their conference. Currently they are emphasizing football over basketball and we just don't have the football attendance to be attractive to them.

SIU is already an associate member of the Sun Belt in Swimming and Diving, only because the MVC doesn't offer it. Moving to the Sun Belt in all other sports would not enhance our athletics programs, and would prove very unpopular.

A more logical move would be SIU joining the MAC, but that would be a major step down in basketball, and would be at best a lateral move in football. However, SIU joining the MAC would not prove popular among the Saluki faithful.

If for some reason, SIU wanted to return to FBS status, the most logical scenario(albeit not likely!) would be as follows:

1. Wichita State restarts their football program

2. As 6 MVC schools would now have scholarship FCS football (SIU, WSU, InSU, IlSU, MSU, UNI), the MVC has to add football per NCAA rules. The Gateway would cease to exist, and YSU, WIU, NDSU, and SDSU would be offered associate membership for MVC football only. Drake remains in the Pioneer, but retains associate membership in the MVC for other sports.

3. In the next 2-3 years, some of the the non-basketball MVC schools (WIU, YSU, NDSU, and SDSU) improve their basketball programs sufficiently over time so that they are competitive with the other MVC schools, and are offered full MVC membership. Drake remains an associate member and stays in the Pioneer.

4. MVC basketball continues on its winning ways, with SIU and Creighton going to the Final Four, combined with MSU finally making the NCAA tournament and getting to the Sweet Sixteen. Flush with success in basketball, during a MVC meeting, the members decide to capitalize on this success by moving as a conference to FBS football as a means to enhance MVC basketball. Creighton, Drake, and Evansville remain as associate members for basketball. Indiana State leaves the MVC for the OVC.

IOW, SIU isn't going to FBS anytime soon.

[bcrawf]

Saluki in Ohio just put together the only situation where most of the Gateway would go FBS. It would have to turn into a 16 team super conference and go as a whole with 8-10 football members and 6 or so non football members...

[catdaddy2402]

I would argue that Nevada is, at best, marginally less obscure than it was when it was in the Big Sky Conference.

Would the Boise St/Nevada game been on national television if Nevada were in the Big Sky Conference?

[BearsCountry]

3. In the next 2-3 years, some of the the non-basketball MVC schools (WIU, YSU, NDSU, and SDSU) improve their basketball programs sufficiently over time so that they are competitive with the other MVC schools, and are offered full MVC membership. Drake remains an associate member and stays in the Pioneer.


I could see NDSU and SDSU getting an invite to the MVC in the future. They are similar to the rest of the MVC schools and I think they will blow the Summit League out. xtwocentsx