Why did we add Samford to the SoCon?

[appstate38]

Just curious as to why we added them to the SoCon??? The location and travel seems to be a burden. I would have thought they would have looked to expand the league with somebody a little closer. The likes of Coastal or somebody like that. Either way, Welcome to the SoCon Samford.

[bodoyle]

I thought the reason the SoCon poo-pooed us was because academics and they kinda thougth our success was a flash-in-the-pan?

Maybe I'm totally wrong though?xeyebrowx

[WVAPPmountaineer]

My understanding is that the SoCon had promised UTC a travel partner (for most all sports other than football) to keep UTC from joining another conference - I don't know if that is fact only what I have perceived from reading articles and information

[appstate38]

My understanding is that the SoCon had promised UTC a travel partner (for most all sports other than football) to keep UTC from joining another conference - I don't know if that is fact only what I have perceived from reading articles and information

If that is true, it's not like they are way out in West Tennessee. Seem odd to me.xconfusedx

[bodoyle]

But why did they want UTC so bad? It's not like the SoCon is struggling for teams to join.

[OL FU]

If that is true, it's not like they are way out in West Tennessee. Seem odd to me.xconfusedx

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/land/ncrst/rastudyarea.gif

[OL FU]

But why did they want UTC so bad? It's not like the SoCon is struggling for teams to join.


xeyebrowx You mean why did we not want to lose UTC? I can't think of many conferences that want to lose members period much less to another conferense of similar stature ie the OVC.

[OL FU]

Just curious as to why we added them to the SoCon??? The location and travel seems to be a burden. I would have thought they would have looked to expand the league with somebody a little closer. The likes of Coastal or somebody like that. Either way, Welcome to the SoCon Samford.

Here are some guesses you can argue the merit I am just throwing it out there.

1. The SoCon has heard over and over the Carolina's Conference, so Stamford broadened the geographic area.
2. I can assure size and academics played a part. I know Furman wants to maintain some number of small highly rated academic schools in the conference and Stamford fit the mold.
3. Samford has recently showed an interest in upgrading its football program with new coach, etc.


I don't know why CCU was not invited. I know they did not fit 1 and 2 they certainly fit 3. Part of the problem may simply be that the schools in the conference are in close proximity and there may have been bad blood in the recruiting area. ( I have no clue if this is the case who did what to whom)

The above is all conjecture but I think the three reason given make sense.

[JDC325]

Because the power has shifted to the small no growth potential private or quasi private schools in this conference. They do not want anymore schools added with high growth potential.

It should have been Costal but if you want to play the we did not want to lose UTC card Jacksonville State would have made a better choice than Samford and Son....ya big dummy.

[citdog]

TO PISS ME OFF EVERY TIME A SAMFORDITE SAYS "GO 'DOGS".

[OL FU]

Because the power has shifted to the small no growth potential private or quasi private schools in this conference. They do not want anymore schools added with high growth potential.

It should have been Costal but if you want to play the we did not want to lose UTC card Jacksonville State would have made a better choice than Samford and Son....ya big dummy.

Growth potentialxeyebrowx What do you want plants, trees, stocks and mutual fundsxeyebrowx

The balance between small and large has existed in the SoCon long before we became gnat infested. The trend you see is just bringing that balance back. If we add additional schools the next will be public.

[citdog]

Growth potentialxeyebrowx What do you want plants, trees, stocks and mutual fundsxeyebrowx

The balance between small and large has existed in the SoCon long before we became gnat infested. The trend you see is just bringing that balance back. If we add additional schools the next will be public.


OL FU spaeks the truth. ****ING FURPLE that he is.

[Black and Gold Express]

Growth potentialxeyebrowx What do you want plants, trees, stocks and mutual fundsxeyebrowx

The balance between small and large has existed in the SoCon long before we became gnat infested. The trend you see is just bringing that balance back. If we add additional schools the next will be public.

God willing, the next SoCon addition will be to replace a departing ASU.

No offense meant, and I know this is a retread subject, but adding Samford is a clear sign that the interests of ASU and the SoCon are getting less and less alike. A conference simply cannot exist in this day and age and fully cater to the needs of this kind of mix of small institutions and larger ones. It's a nice idea in theory, but in practicality the conference needs to pick a school type and run with it. To me, that choice is more clearly the smaller institutions. Which I have no problem with, it's just time then for the rest of us to move on.

[Death Dealer]

Because the power has shifted to the small no growth potential private or quasi private schools in this conference. They do not want anymore schools added with high growth potential.

It should have been Costal but if you want to play the we did not want to lose UTC card Jacksonville State would have made a better choice than Samford and Son....ya big dummy.

We know who you think you are talking about, but you seem to forget is that we have been here from the very beginning. xrulesx We are a charter member of this conference, unlike you Johnny-Come-Lately's.xnodx

[OL FU]

God willing, the next SoCon addition will be to replace a departing ASU.

No offense meant, and I know this is a retread subject, but adding Samford is a clear sign that the interests of ASU and the SoCon are getting less and less alike. A conference simply cannot exist in this day and age and fully cater to the needs of this kind of mix of small institutions and larger ones. It's a nice idea in theory, but in practicality the conference needs to pick a school type and run with it. To me, that choice is more clearly the smaller institutions. Which I have no problem with, it's just time then for the rest of us to move on.

Best of luck to youxnodxxsmiley_wix

[UncleSam]

God willing, the next SoCon addition will be to replace a departing ASU.

No offense meant, and I know this is a retread subject, but adding Samford is a clear sign that the interests of ASU and the SoCon are getting less and less alike. A conference simply cannot exist in this day and age and fully cater to the needs of this kind of mix of small institutions and larger ones. It's a nice idea in theory, but in practicality the conference needs to pick a school type and run with it. To me, that choice is more clearly the smaller institutions. Which I have no problem with, it's just time then for the rest of us to move on.




Can you say... CAA

[OL FU]

God willing, the next SoCon addition will be to replace a departing ASU.

No offense meant, and I know this is a retread subject, but adding Samford is a clear sign that the interests of ASU and the SoCon are getting less and less alike. A conference simply cannot exist in this day and age and fully cater to the needs of this kind of mix of small institutions and larger ones. It's a nice idea in theory, but in practicality the conference needs to pick a school type and run with it. To me, that choice is more clearly the smaller institutions. Which I have no problem with, it's just time then for the rest of us to move on.


I think every school has to pick its path and do what it thinks is in its best interest. With that said, if ASU leaves I truly wish them the best.

However, I don't agree at all with your premisexnonono2x

[ButlerGSU]

God willing, the next SoCon addition will be to replace a departing ASU.

No offense meant, and I know this is a retread subject, but adding Samford is a clear sign that the interests of ASU and the SoCon are getting less and less alike. A conference simply cannot exist in this day and age and fully cater to the needs of this kind of mix of small institutions and larger ones. It's a nice idea in theory, but in practicality the conference needs to pick a school type and run with it. To me, that choice is more clearly the smaller institutions. Which I have no problem with, it's just time then for the rest of us to move on.

Amen. I hope ASU and GSU make moves together but we'll have to get rid of Sam Baker first. Hopefully he's in contact with AARP as we speak.

[citdog]

don't let the door hit you in your diploma mill asses on the way out!

[Death Dealer]

God willing, the next SoCon addition will be to replace a departing ASU.

No offense meant, and I know this is a retread subject, but adding Samford is a clear sign that the interests of ASU and the SoCon are getting less and less alike. A conference simply cannot exist in this day and age and fully cater to the needs of this kind of mix of small institutions and larger ones. It's a nice idea in theory, but in practicality the conference needs to pick a school type and run with it. To me, that choice is more clearly the smaller institutions. Which I have no problem with, it's just time then for the rest of us to move on.
I disagree with you, and I don't think there is an indication by the true powers that be at ASU that their thinking is line with yours either. But if it is, then don't let the door hit you on the way out.xthumbsupx

[citdog]

We know who you think you are talking about, but you seem to forget is that we have been here from the very beginning. xrulesx We are a charter member of this conference, unlike you Johnny-Come-Lately's.xnodx


AND SO IS THE CITADEL.





DEATH DEALER IS CORRECT AND IS A ****ING FURPLE ****!

[Black and Gold Express]

Can you say... CAA

That would be an awful fit from a financial standpoint, with all the various ASU teams having to make lots of trips by plane to get to many locales in the CAA.

As long as we remain I-AA in football, we will (and should) stay in the SoCon because it's the best fit for the rest of our programs. But I'm one of many ASU faithful that think our future 5-10 years from now is in the I-A football ranks. Which won't be cheap either if you look at the current conferences, but at least offers something more in return for it.

Then again, I still truly believe the day will come when the BCS conferences take off on their own, and that will open a lot of doors for the top I-AA teams to make some changes that could end up being more cost effective.

[OL FU]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx

[OL FU]

That would be an awful fit from a financial standpoint, with all the various ASU teams having to make lots of trips by plane to get to many locales in the CAA.

As long as we remain I-AA in football, we will (and should) stay in the SoCon because it's the best fit for the rest of our programs. But I'm one of many ASU faithful that think our future 5-10 years from now is in the I-A football ranks. Which won't be cheap either if you look at the current conferences, but at least offers something more in return for it.

Then again, I still truly believe the day will come when the BCS conferences take off on their own, and that will open a lot of doors for the top I-AA teams to make some changes that could end up being more cost effective.

xthumbsupx Good clarification. I think it is an important one to make that you think the future should be I-A for ASU. That makes all the difference in the world.

I usually get make hackles up when posters bash the composition of the conference when the composition has been like this before those fans' schools entered. The teams have shifted but it has been large and small since its inceptionxnodx

[citdog]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx


quit making sense this week will 'ya! it hurts to have to call you this but...






FURPLE ****STICK!

[AppChicago]

We know who you think you are talking about, but you seem to forget is that we have been here from the very beginning. xrulesx We are a charter member of this conference, unlike you Johnny-Come-Lately's.xnodx

Hi, AGS. Long time listener, first time caller.

Unless I'm missing something, this just isn't true. The SoCon was founded in 1921 by the teams that are now, mostly, SEC and ACC teams. Furman, The Citadel, and Davidson all joined in 1936, so they're the oldest we still have, but are not charter members in any non-revisionist sense.

I think the Samford addition certainly helps expand the SoCon's footprint to a new market. Beyond that, the only two football schools with more than 10k students have, in the eyes of some, one foot out the door, hoping to move to FBS within the next decade. Samford seems a wise addition.

[appstate38]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx

I for one am not in favor of the Apps moving up to 1-A. I happen to like competing for National Championships every year. Even when we did not have to teams to do it. There was always a shot once you made the playoffs. Don't see that if the Apps make the jump. Don't want to end up like Marshall, who went from a powerhouse to a door mat. Not that any of us are shedding tears for their situation. I would hate to see this program end up like that.

I for one don't understand, for other than money why any school who competes on this level every year would want to do that to their school. Can't be just so they can say that they are D1-A, can it?xnonox

[Black and Gold Express]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx

That is true. And until about 5 years ago, ASU had not shown much growth to separate themselves. But for much of the last 5+ years, ASU has been growing at an insane rate in all aspects. We're just starting to scratch the surface of what we could be, a school that is a dominant force in all areas (academics and athletics) to western NC in the same way that ECU is to the eastern part of the state.

It's not what the conference has done alone. It's a combination of changes not just to the SoCon, but to ASU as well. I think (like you) that each school needs to continually look at itself and choose the best path for it.

We're not ready for I-A yet, and that may be a blessing in disguise for the moratorium. The administration is saying all the right thigns, including downplaying any moving talk. But at the same time they are putting in place upgrades to all the facilities that, when completed, should be far and away the best in the conference and one of the best in all of I-AA for football. The fan base has grown and is now proving that this attendance bump is looking less and less like a flash in the pan. So the stadium will be upgraded in seating capacity, to what I don't know but 30,000 or more is not so much looking like an overestimation. You don't do that if your intention is to remain where you are, IMO.

It will take time and money, and time to raise that money. It's early, but I'm seeing signs that point to big changes coming.

And let me make it crystal clear that I in no way disparage schools that like where they are and want to stay there. What's right for one school may not be for another, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[PaladinFan]

This is one of those things that has just been flat beat into the ground. Samford brings a big media market, and a western footprint into Alabama. Furthermore, remember that a conference is not just about football. Samford will come in and be in the upper echelon with their basketball and baseball programs immediately.

[OL FU]

Hi, AGS. Long time listener, first time caller.

Unless I'm missing something, this just isn't true. The SoCon was founded in 1921 by the teams that are now, mostly, SEC and ACC teams. Furman, The Citadel, and Davidson all joined in 1936, so they're the oldest we still have, but are not charter members in any non-revisionist sense.

I think the Samford addition certainly helps expand the SoCon's footprint to a new market. Beyond that, the only two football schools with more than 10k students have, in the eyes of some, one foot out the door, hoping to move to FBS within the next decade. Samford seems a wise addition.


you are correct, we are not charter members.

Original members

Charter members included Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi State, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Tennessee, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Washington & Leexeyebrowx .

Of Course size was a little less impactful back then.

however, since the 30's the SoCon has been mixed.

and welcome to AGS

[Appaholic]

Why would we leave....we are the Southern Conference. My guess is that Samford was added in fear (or hopes) that Citadel would soon be joining it's Girl Scout sisters, VMI, in the Big South........xsmiley_wix

[citdog]

revisionist sense.




i am not familiar with that term

[appstate38]

BGE,

What upgrades are we making on the academic side to warrant such a move. We don't have a nursing or medical program the likes of UNC, UVA or ECU. No law program either. We do have an outstanding music and education and communication programs to go along with the business school. What do you see that could help ASU step up the next level on the academic side to match the athletics?

[citdog]

Why would we leave....we are the Southern Conference. My guess is that Samford was added in fear (or hopes) that Citadel would soon be joining it's Girl Scout sisters, VMI, in the Big South........xsmiley_wix


THE Citadel!



tuesday night......


PAIN!

[citdog]

BGE,

What upgrades are we making on the academic side to warrant such a move. We don't have a nursing or medical program the likes of UNC, UVA or ECU. No law program either. We do have an outstanding music and education and communication programs to go along with the business school. What do you see that could help ASU step up the next level on the academic side to match the athletics?


less hippies

[OL FU]

This is one of those things that has just been flat beat into the ground. Samford brings a big media market, and a western footprint into Alabama. Furthermore, remember that a conference is not just about football. Samford will come in and be in the upper echelon with their basketball and baseball programs immediately.

How long has Elon been in the conferencexeyebrowx you can use that as a gauge on how long this will get beat into the groundxnodx

Hell Wofford still gets "You are no Marshall" and for those of use who appreciate honestly and integrity we say " Thank God"

[appstate38]

less hippies

no argument from me!

[appheel]

I for one am not in favor of the Apps moving up to 1-A. I happen to like competing for National Championships every year. Even when we did not have to teams to do it. There was always a shot once you made the playoffs. Don't see that if the Apps make the jump. Don't want to end up like Marshall, who went from a powerhouse to a door mat. Not that any of us are shedding tears for their situation. I would hate to see this program end up like that.

I for one don't understand, for other than money why any school who competes on this level every year would want to do that to their school. Can't be just so they can say that they are D1-A, can it?xnonox

I completely agree. The idea of playing an entire season where the best possible result is the "Insert corporate sponser here" Bowl is just awful to me. I think the Marshall case is a good reality check for us. Long term success is never guaranteed.

[lizrdgizrd]

We know who you think you are talking about, but you seem to forget is that we have been here from the very beginning. xrulesx We are a charter member of this conference, unlike you Johnny-Come-Lately's.xnodx


AND SO IS THE CITADEL.





DEATH DEALER IS CORRECT AND IS A ****ING FURPLE ****!

Oops! You're both wrong! xoopsx


you are correct, we are not charter members.

Original members

Charter members included Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi State, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Tennessee, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Washington & Lee.

[AppChicago]

i am not familiar with that term

As in historical revisionism. The reevaluation of history using new information that can either lead to new truth or an unfair repainting of past events. In this case, referring to Furman as a charter member is only true in the sense that they have been around longer than any other current SoCon team, along with Davidson and the Citadel. Therefore, while they are among the oldest members still active, they are not an actual charter member.

...

The ol' undergrad major was in history...

[Death Dealer]

Hi, AGS. Long time listener, first time caller.

Unless I'm missing something, this just isn't true. The SoCon was founded in 1921 by the teams that are now, mostly, SEC and ACC teams. Furman, The Citadel, and Davidson all joined in 1936, so they're the oldest we still have, but are not charter members in any non-revisionist sense.

I think the Samford addition certainly helps expand the SoCon's footprint to a new market. Beyond that, the only two football schools with more than 10k students have, in the eyes of some, one foot out the door, hoping to move to FBS within the next decade. Samford seems a wise addition.
You and your blasted facts!xnonox O.K., you caught me, so we weren't "original" members, but we have been around for awhile, and OL's point still remains valid. This conference has been traditionally a mix of larger and smaller schools.xrulesx

I'll be honest with you, it cracks me up how some App fans are always talking down to the "small private" schools in the last couple of years as if it wasn't that long ago that we were kicking your @$$ on a fairly regular basis, and if you are smart enough to stick around in the BEST subdivision, we will be again. News to the I-A bandwagoners, you ain't all that, or did you miss that game in Sparklecity a few weeks ago? Those "no-growth" schools you talk about are very capable of competing with you no matter how big you get. Don't get ahead of yourselves.

Again, I'd hate to see you go, but if that's the way it goes, then so be it.

I also want to edit this post to say that I realize that most App fans are realistic about their recent dominance of the conference. I not wishing any bad luck on Appy.

[PaladinFan]

Furman still has an 8 or so game lead over App. State. In fact, though it doesn't seem like it, Furman holds the edge in games played in Boone too.

The only SoCon team Furman doesn't have a winning record over is GSU.

[lizrdgizrd]

Furman still has an 8 or so game lead over App. State. In fact, though it doesn't seem like it, Furman holds the edge in games played in Boone too.

The only SoCon team Furman doesn't have a winning record over is GSU.
How's that working for you this season? xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

How's that working for you this season? xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix

I'll let you know after we play you:p

[citdog]

As in historical revisionism. The reevaluation of history using new information that can either lead to new truth or an unfair repainting of past events. In this case, referring to Furman as a charter member is only true in the sense that they have been around longer than any other current SoCon team, along with Davidson and the Citadel. Therefore, while they are among the oldest members still active, they are not an actual charter member.

...

The ol' undergrad major was in history...

i forgot you were an AGS KNOB. stick around and you will see why that was funny coming from me.

[Death Dealer]

How's that working for you this season? xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix
That's the point I was trying to make. Every school goes through fluctuations, and App is no exception. The only way to avoid that is to play in a conference where your competition is routinely weak (you fill in that blank). Appy is in no way invincible. Noone is. And IMHO, a shot at the playoffs every year, and thus, the NC, is way better than a shot at one of the "Toilet" Bowls you'd get a shot at in whatever I-A conference you moved up to. I don't see the ACC or the SEC opening up a spot for you.

[lizrdgizrd]

That's the point I was trying to make. Every school goes through fluctuations, and App is no exception. The only way to avoid that is to play in a conference where your competition is routinely weak (BSC). Appy is in no way invincible. Noone is. And IMHO, a shot at the playoffs every year, and thus, the NC, is way better than a shot at one of the "Toilet" Bowls you'd get a shot at in whatever I-A conference you moved up to. I don't see the ACC or the SEC opening up a spot for you.
Yeah, don't count me as one of those who think we have to move up to FBS. I think it'll be problematic given the logistics of getting to Boone no matter how ready our facilities are. xpeacex

[asufan87]

Furman still has an 8 or so game lead over App. State. In fact, though it doesn't seem like it, Furman holds the edge in games played in Boone too.

The only SoCon team Furman doesn't have a winning record over is GSU.

Things are changing. ASU has won two consecutive national championships with student athletes who have trained and practiced using support facilities (weight room, training room, etc) that are among the worst in the Socon. That's about to change. Turf is going down in the indoor practice facility which will soon be open. Harsh winter weather will no longer impact off season training and conditioning. The new football tower will bring new and spacious weight and training facilities, locker rooms, player & coaches meeting rooms and so on. Several thousand seats to be added to KBS along with general improvements all around in the stadium. Recruiting with these facilities in place will only improve. I expect we'll be in the Socon a good bit longer than many of our opponents will want us to be. In that regard, maybe other conference members should be asking their respective administrations what plans they have to keep up.

[Saint3333]

Furman still has an 8 or so game lead over App. State. In fact, though it doesn't seem like it, Furman holds the edge in games played in Boone too.

The only SoCon team Furman doesn't have a winning record over is GSU.

7-3 ASU in the last ten years. http://www.diaafootball.com/vt000280000413.html

I can't tell home vs. away, but Furman hasn't won in Boone since 1996.

ASU is 8-3 vs. WC since they joined the SoCon.

[bobbythekidd]

7-3 ASU in the last ten years. http://www.diaafootball.com/vt000280000413.html

I can't tell home vs. away, but Furman hasn't won in Boone since 1996.

ASU is 8-3 vs. WC since they joined the SoCon.
Use this saint. It gives the locations and dates of games.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/southern/appalachian_state/index.php

[Appaholic]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx

Very good point. Count me in the ASU fans who DO NOT want to move up to the 1A ranks. How has it worked for Marshall? And they have beeter facilities and location to airports. It's not like we are going to be invited to jopin the SEC or ACC.....so we'll be up there with the ranks fo the mighty ECU's, Tulane's, & Southern Miss's of the football world......maybe an occassional good year to Meineke "Tidy" bowl, but overall mediocrity with no natural rivalries. Sounds like crap to me......I would miss pimp slapping the bellhops on a yearly basis......

[WVAPPmountaineer]

Personally, I am not a big advocate of APP moving up unless they can find an established conference to take them and I don't mean Conf USA or Sun-Belt - I enjoy the storied rivalries with FU, GSU, etc. - Who would really be excited about having UL-Wherever or Florida International or Rice or SMU coming to The Rock for a big game with the winner getting a bid to WhoCares Bowl in Little Rock???

[WUTNDITWAA]

Oh look, it's a rehash of every other thread.xreadx

[citdog]

I would miss pimp slapping the bellhops on a yearly basis......



forecast for tuesday night. right crosses, and left hooks

[OL FU]

Oh look, it's a rehash of every other thread.xreadx

Actually I think it is a good rehash because we seemed to have clarified a major point ( I know that everyone will not have this opinion). Most people's problem with the SoCon is less a problem with the SoCon and more a problem with the fact that they would prefer their team to be in another division.

Now, I know that is not the case for all people. For example why did we take Samford and not a bigger school like CCU. That is a legitimate question. But, in my opinion, it is not a legitimate to complain about being in a conference that has a combination of small and large when that conference had that same type of combination when most of the newer schools joined.( and, by the way, had that same combination 40 to to 50 years prior to their joining) xtwocentsx

[lizrdgizrd]

Actually I think it is a good rehash because we seemed to have clarified a major point ( I know that everyone will not have this opinion). Most people's problem with the SoCon is less a problem with the SoCon and more a problem with the fact that they would prefer their team to be in another division.

Now, I know that is not the case for all people. For example why did we take Samford and not a bigger school like CCU. That is a legitimate question. But, in my opinion, it is not a legitimate to complain about being in a conference that has a combination of small and large when that conference had that same type of combination when most of the newer schools joined.( and, by the way, had that same combination 40 to to 50 years prior to their joining) xtwocentsx
Who were the last 3 members admitted to the SoCon? Samford, Elon, and who?

[WUTNDITWAA]

Nope, it's still every other thread. With something about San Diego being the other, every other.

[GoldandBlack]

Who were the last 3 members admitted to the SoCon? Samford, Elon, and who?

College of Charleston- 1998

[PaladinFan]

App should be wary. Marshall, for instance, was absolutely dominant when they left the conference. App has been to the past two national championships, yes, but Marshall was in the NC game in 87, 91,92,93,95 and 96 winning twice. Fact is, Marshall was a more dominant team, IMO, then than App is now.

Now they are sporting an 0-5 record this year in CUSA and really haven't been that competitive in 12 years.


And yes, Furman hasn't won in Boone since 96. Good news is App has only one once in Greenville since 1995. Pretty much balances out right there.

[lizrdgizrd]

College of Charleston- 1998
That's right. I knew there was someone between UNCG/Wofford and Elon. xthumbsupx

[asu70]

Furman still has an 8 or so game lead over App. State. In fact, though it doesn't seem like it, Furman holds the edge in games played in Boone too.

The only SoCon team Furman doesn't have a winning record over is GSU.

The only SoCon team App doesn't have a winning record over is FU at 13-21-3 with 11 of those defeats coming in the first 15 years. Since that time, App has won 11 and lost 10.

[Black and Gold Express]

This is one of those things that has just been flat beat into the ground. Samford brings a big media market, and a western footprint into Alabama. Furthermore, remember that a conference is not just about football. Samford will come in and be in the upper echelon with their basketball and baseball programs immediately.

Birmingham, a big media market. That was a joke, right? Oooh, they were #39 a couple of years back. Big time!

In addition, they are, at best, the #4 team in Birmingham. Behind Bama, Auburn, and UAB. Yeah, can't wait to see all the extra publicity the SoCon gets there. LOL. xlolx If you're going to make an argument, at least try and get some accuracy out of it.

We will see how their hoops does immedaitely, but I don't picture them better than 4th behind Davidson, CoC, and UNCG.

This addition was made for UTC to stick around. That's fine. The rest of us will gain little to nothing from it I do believe. Except for a higher cost of travel down there and an easy W on the gridiron schedule.

[Saint3333]

Who were the last 3 members admitted to the SoCon? Samford, Elon, and who?

Football - from 1990:

GSU comes in, Marshall leaves, Wofford comes in, VMI leaves, Elon comes in, ETSU leaves, Samford comes in

mid 90's---2008:

ASU---ASU
Citadel---Citadel
ETSU---Samford (natural rival for ASU in exchange for small private 500 miles away)
Furman---Furman
GSU---GSU
Marshall---Wofford (Marshall huge fan base, winning tradition)
UTC---UTC
WCU---WCU
VMI---Elon (loss of tradition, finally an upgrade in football this year)

And people wonder why ASU fans aren't excited about the changes in the SoCon

[GoldandBlack]

Football - from 1990:

GSU comes in, Marshall leaves, Wofford comes in, VMI leaves, Elon comes in, ETSU leaves, Samford comes in

mid 90's---2008:

ASU---ASU
Citadel---Citadel
ETSU---Samford (natural rival for ASU in exchange for small private 500 miles away)
Furman---Furman
GSU---GSU
Marshall---Wofford (Marshall huge fan base, winning tradition)
UTC---UTC
WCU---WCU
VMI---Elon (loss of tradition, finally an upgrade in football this year)

And people wonder why ASU fans aren't excited about the changes in the SoCon

Note: If public institutions had been added instead of Wofford, Elon, and Samford, Furman would now be the only private institution in the SoCon.

If that were true, would there be a lobby to get rid of Furman, also? Seems to be the line of logic.xeyebrowx

[Saint3333]

Note: If public institutions had been added instead of Wofford, Elon, and Samford, Furman would now be the only private institution in the SoCon.

If that were true, would there be a lobby to get rid of Furman, also? Seems to be the line of logic.xeyebrowx

Not at all. There wasn't in the mid 90's when it was Furman, 2 service academies, and public schools.

[citdog]

If that were true, would there be a lobby to get rid of Furman, also? Seems to be the line of logic.xeyebrowx



get rid of Furman? ok with mexsmiley_wix

[citdog]

2 service academies,


i'll have to kick your ass for that

[GoldandBlack]

Not at all. There wasn't in the mid 90's when it was Furman, 2 service academies, and public schools.

So, if things had stayed the way they were in the mid '90's, then ASU and GSU would be happy with the SoCon and feel no need to discuss moving to I-A?

Just curious here, since it's all academic, anyway......xwhistlex

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

If Samford was added for the sake of UTC, then why not go with one of the OVC teams that are in Tennessee? I'm sure at least one of them is closer than Birmingham.

And another thing, why do we need a member that is close to UTC in the first place? I'd be willing to bet that on a given year UTC has to travel less than most teams in the CAA, Big Sky, Great West, SLC, and Gateway.

And while they will probably be one of the better teams in basketball, I don't think they are going to own the league by any means.

[Saint3333]

So, if things had stayed the way they were in the mid '90's, then ASU and GSU would be happy with the SoCon and feel no need to discuss moving to I-A?

Just curious here, since it's all academic, anyway......xwhistlex

Some ASU and GSU fans would still like to move to the FBS, but more fans would rather have our mid-90's SoCon than the 2008 version.

IMO Jacksonville St. was the best option available, UTC partner and better football.

[Death Dealer]

Football - from 1990:

GSU comes in, Marshall leaves, Wofford comes in, VMI leaves, Elon comes in, ETSU leaves, Samford comes in

mid 90's---2008:

ASU---ASU
Citadel---Citadel
ETSU---Samford (natural rival for ASU in exchange for small private 500 miles away)
Furman---Furman
GSU---GSU
Marshall---Wofford (Marshall huge fan base, winning tradition)
UTC---UTC
WCU---WCU
VMI---Elon (loss of tradition, finally an upgrade in football this year)

And people wonder why ASU fans aren't excited about the changes in the SoCon
Well then get the **** out already!!!! I so ****ing tired of hearing it over and over and over! xeekx If you're so unhappy, just go! xmadx OMFG!!!!! (as stated earlier, I don't think every ASU fan is so gung ho about going I-A. It's just that the more vocal ones overshadow the rest. Oy vey!!!!)xoopsx

[citdog]

Well then get the **** out already!!!! I so ****ing tired of hearing it over and over and over! xeekx If you're so unhappy, just go! xmadx OMFG!!!!! (as stated earlier, I don't think every ASU fan is so gung ho about going I-A. It's just that the more vocal ones overshadow the rest. Oy vey!!!!)xoopsx


and BRACE while you are doing it!

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Well then get the **** out already!!!! I so ****ing tired of hearing it over and over and over! xeekx If you're so unhappy, just go! xmadx OMFG!!!!! (as stated earlier, I don't think every ASU fan is so gung ho about going I-A. It's just that the more vocal ones overshadow the rest. Oy vey!!!!)xoopsx

One could argue that overall the Socon has improved since the early and mid-90s. GSU was bad in the early and mid nineties and App. and Furman weren't that great either. Since then we have all gotten better and now we have Wofford will probably add their second playoff appearance this year and what should be their third (were it not for the infamous "Woof" from 2002). Overall, I'd say the Socon of the 00's is better than that of the 90s, football wise.

[AppMan]

don't let the door hit you in your diploma mill asses on the way out!

Diploma Mill?? ASU a diploma mill! Now that's a good one! IMO, The Citadel can't be put into the same catagory as Furman, Wofford, Elon, and Samford. To begin with they are a state supported school and their fans are far more passionate about football than the other four. They have always been near the top of the conference in attendance and seem to have a different mentality when it comes to football. It is just hard to get kids to buy into the military thing in recruiting.

[AppMan]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx

I tend to agree. I have ranted about the direction of the conference a long time, but with the addition to Samford I have given up that idea. The conference is what it is and there is little ASU or GSU can do about it. ASU and GSU have outgron the SoCon and it is up to our respective institutions to find new homes. I've always wondered why Furman, Wofford, Elon, William & Mary, The Citadel, Davidson, Richmond, and VMI didn't form their own league. Seven for football and eight for everything else. It makes sense, probably the resson it'll never happen. Just like UNCA, UNCC, UNCG, UNCW, CofC, ETSU, VCU, & Winthrop should be in a league together.

[citdog]

I tend to agree. I have ranted about the direction of the conference a long time, but with the addition to Samford I have given up that idea. The conference is what it is and there is little ASU or GSU can do about it. ASU and GSU have outgron the SoCon and it is up to our respective institutions to find new homes. I've always wondered why Furman, Wofford, Elon, William & Mary, The Citadel, Davidson, Richmond, and VMI didn't form their own league. Seven for football and eight for everything else. It makes sense, probably the resson it'll never happen. Just like UNCA, UNCC, UNCG, UNCW, CofC, ETSU, VCU, & Winthrop should be in a league together.


there was a league like the one you mentioned but your, wcu, and marshall being subpar academic institutions entering it caused the VA schools to leave. this league was called THE SOUTHERN CONFERENCE!

[WUTNDITWAA]

One could argue that overall the Socon has improved since the early and mid-90s. GSU was bad in the early and mid nineties and App. and Furman weren't that great either. Since then we have all gotten better and now we have Wofford will probably add their second playoff appearance this year and what should be their third (were it not for the infamous "Woof" from 2002). Overall, I'd say the Socon of the 00's is better than that of the 90s, football wise.

WTF??? App has had one, ONE losing season in 22 years.

[Saint3333]

Well then get the **** out already!!!! I so ****ing tired of hearing it over and over and over! xeekx If you're so unhappy, just go! xmadx OMFG!!!!! (as stated earlier, I don't think every ASU fan is so gung ho about going I-A. It's just that the more vocal ones overshadow the rest. Oy vey!!!!)xoopsx

Where did I say I wanted ASU to leave? I don't want to right this very moment. Why can I not voice my opinion that I don't think the SoCon has strengthened its position in the past 10-15 years? If you don't want to hear it, put me and others on ignore or stop reading.

If you haven't noticed ASU has no where to go right now, so we'd like to make the best of what we have to work with. In recent history the SoCon hasn't been adding members to progress the conference athletically (especially football).

[citdog]

Where did I say I wanted ASU to leave? I don't want to right this very moment. Why can I not voice my opinion that I don't think the SoCon has strengthened its position in the past 10-15 years? If you don't want to hear it, put me and others on ignore or stop reading.

If you haven't noticed ASU has no where to go right now, so we'd like to make the best of what we have to work with. In recent history the SoCon hasn't been adding members to progress the conference athletically (especially football).


who would you like to add? other schools that it only takes a pulse and the money to get into?

[GoldandBlack]

Where did I say I wanted ASU to leave? I don't want to right this very moment. Why can I not voice my opinion that I don't think the SoCon has strengthened its position in the past 10-15 years? If you don't want to hear it, put me and others on ignore or stop reading.

If you haven't noticed ASU has no where to go right now, so we'd like to make the best of what we have to work with. In recent history the SoCon hasn't been adding members to progress the conference athletically (especially football).

I guess we'll just have to be honored by your unwilling presence, then.xrolleyesx

[Saint3333]

who would you like to add? other schools that it only takes a pulse and the money to get into?

JSU, EKU would have been excellent choices instead of Elon and Samford, maybe wait for Georgia St's football program and add them. You may be surprised at Elon's entrance standards just 10 years ago (not bad, but they were low for a private SoCon school). I'm not sure who would have been available when WC joined.

This isn't your daddy's ASU citdog. Good SAT and avg. GPA for incoming students and a great undergrad business program. I don't think ASU is bringing down the conference's academic standards by any means.

GoldandBlack I guess so...

[terrierbob]

Some ASU and GSU fans would still like to move to the FBS, but more fans would rather have our mid-90's SoCon than the 2008 version.

IMO Jacksonville St. was the best option available, UTC partner and better football.

Shucks. You're stuck with us, though.xlolx

[terrierbob]

and BRACE while you are doing it!

Do you say that to a knob or your girlfriend? Or is it to remind her to brace your knob?

[lizrdgizrd]

there was a league like the one you mentioned but your, wcu, and marshall being subpar academic institutions entering it caused the VA schools to leave. this league was called THE SOUTHERN CONFERENCE!


who would you like to add? other schools that it only takes a pulse and the money to get into?
Just keep believing that ASU is a poor academic institution. xrolleyesx

[asufan87]

i'll have to kick your ass for that

Saint was confused. Service academies are places where young men go to be a soldier, not play soldier.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

WTF??? App has had one, ONE losing season in 22 years.

Up until 2006, GSU had had only one losing season in 22 seasons of football (we started in IAA/FCS in 1984). I'm talking bad by Socon standards. Socon teams have won four of the last eight national championships and have been represented in 5 of the last eight national championship games. We've had a rep in the semis in 7 of the last eight playoffs, too. Isn't that an improvement from the early and mid nineties with non-Marshall Socon teams?

[Maroons]

JSU, EKU would have been excellent choices instead of Elon and Samford, maybe wait for Georgia St's football program and add them.

Interesting that you should bring that up. SoCon offials have historically been interested in EKU. In the 80s and early 90s, the football program advocated internally for a move. Then Eastern President Hanley Funderburk wasn't interested in anything that would require a budget increase. Additionally, the SoCon was deemed to be too far afield and school officials didn't think that the SoCon members would be a bigger draw than the more local and historic rivals.

As recently as 2001, SoCon officials asked if EKU had interest in changing conferences. Because the school was in the midst of a major administrative overhaul (both academically and athletically), discussion of a move was deemed inappropriate. To my knowledge, the subject never came up again. I don't believe EKU has had a great deal of interest because of the increase in travel costs. Additionally, to my knowledge, the SoCon has never officially invited EKU... only tested for interest.

[SoCon48]

don't let the door hit you in your diploma mill asses on the way out!

Baloney. ASU is at least as good an academic institution as Citadel.

[JaxSinfonian]

I've been asking myself this question for awhile.

Thanks to those who think highly enough of Jax State to want to add us. I wish you'd lobbied your admins for it. In many ways, I think Jax State would have been a better fit, but there are a couple factors where Samford would have an edge:

1) Facilitates for everything but football are better than ours, or soon will be.

2) Men's basketball is strong. We have been committed to mediocrity in that sport for about five years now.

Also, they're an exclusive, expensive private college with a law school. If you think that makes them more attractive as a conference member, more power to you. Theoretically their alums will, on average, have more money than ours. As a public school with admittedly lower admission standards, we have a much larger base of alumni, many of whom actually come to the games and support the programs. (I don't judge a school by its incoming freshmen - people who've never attended a class. When it comes to what they do after graduation, JSU stacks up just fine).

That's really about it. In every other way, JSU looks as good or better.

1) If you think Samford "brings the Birmingham media market," then JSU probably does so a little better. We're an hour outside the city, but considered part of the B'ham TV market. We must have thousands more alumni in the area than Samford does. Plus, we're already on TV there and throughout the region on a regular basis. When the OVC failed to deliver a conference TV package, we went out and got our own, with all or most of our home games broadcast on CSS the last two years, and plenty of regional appearances before that. I can't say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure Samford can't claim the same.

2) While Samford is demonstrating a commitment to "improving the program" by hiring Pat Sullivan, JSU has a 100-year-plus winning tradition already in place, with D-II titles in football, men's basketball and baseball (twice). Our first 10 years in D-I were an anomaly for the football program, which has since started playing like a winner again (though not quite yet where we'd like to be). No one in Jacksonville is going to be satisfied until every sport is brining home titles in whatever conference we're in. The best measure of the relative strength of the programs: We're 9-3 against Samford since joining them in D-I, winning the last seven games in a row.

3) People actually come to our games. The crowds aren't as big as I'd like (especially this year), but they're certainly bigger than what you'll see in the stands at Samford. Our average home attendance last year was nearly double theirs.

I've said most of this here before, but as long as people keep bringing it up I'm happy to repeat it. And yes, it's just sour grapes on my part. The SoCon made its choice, and I look forward to seeing how that works out for all involved.

[Death Dealer]

Where did I say I wanted ASU to leave? I don't want to right this very moment. Why can I not voice my opinion that I don't think the SoCon has strengthened its position in the past 10-15 years? If you don't want to hear it, put me and others on ignore or stop reading.

If you haven't noticed ASU has no where to go right now, so we'd like to make the best of what we have to work with. In recent history the SoCon hasn't been adding members to progress the conference athletically (especially football).
Look, I wasn't very excited about Samfor either. I was in favor of Coastal or Jax St., but that's not what I have an issue with in your attitude. You act like being in a conference with Furman and Wofford has been a burden for you and somehow kept ASU from reaching some mysterious athletic goal. WTF? You only won the NC two times in a row. And don't ****ing lump us in with Samford and Elon! What a bunch of ****ing elitist pr**ks you guys are. I got news for you, 90% of your student body couldn't get on the waiting list to get into Furman, and we still consistently compete with you in most sports. Yeah, so we had a bad game last year, but before that our games were down to the wire. Who the **** do you think you are? Guess what? Your ***** stinks just like everybody elses.xnodx

Oh yeah, and yes you are entitled to express you opinion, but that doesn't mean you have to beat the ****ing thing into the ground and then dig it up and start all over again! Give it a rest! It's getting as bad as TERERO FEVER.xnonono2x xrolleyesx xcoffeex

[catdaddy2402]

If you look at the Southern Conference's history, this isn't a new debate.

Two very significant membership moves were due to schools feeling the smaller schools were keeping them down.

The SoCon started in 1922 with 21 members:

Alabama
Auburn
Clemson
Florida
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Kentucky
Louisiana St.
Maryland
Mississippi
Mississippi St.
North Carolina
North Carolina St.
Sewanee
South Carolina
Tennessee
Tulane
Vanderbilt
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Washington & Lee

A mix of public and private schools from the Tidewater of Virginia to the bayous of Louisiana.

In 1924 VMI was added.

In 1928 Duke was added.

In 1933 a significant portion split, forming the Southeastern Conference. The biggest reason for the split was because the larger schools felt that the smaller schools were keeping them down.
Members that left:

Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Kentucky
Louisiana St.
Mississippi
Mississippi St.
Sewanee
Tennessee
Tulane
Vanderbilt

1933 SoCon lineup:

Clemson
Duke
Maryland
North Carolina
North Carolina St
South Carolina
Virginia
Virginia Tech
VMI
Washington and Lee

In 1936 the ACC expanded by adding schools from the Carolinas and Virginia:

Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Richmond
Wake Forest
William & Mary

In 1938, in part because of the "little schools keeping them down" Virginia left for life as an Independent.

In 1941 George Washington was added.

In 1950 West Virginia was added.

In 1952 and 1953 due to a SoCon rule where only the league champion could participate in bow games, the bulk of the large publics along with a couple of allied privates left to create the Atlantic Coast Conference.

1952 departees
Clemson
Maryland

1953 departees

Duke
North Carolina
North Carolina St.
South Carolina
Wake Forest


No conference out there has had as much turnover as the SoCon has in it's history.

What does this little history lesson tell you?

1. It'll be 8 more years until Furman and The Citadel have more time in the SoCon than VMI had when they left in 2003.

2. There has always been strife between the smaller and larger schools, and the publics and privates.

3. When a group of schools from the SoCon decides to moveAS A GROUP they tend to be very, very successful as a group.

4. Each time the above mentioned group does make a move the SoCon as a whole tends to lose stature.

5. When a single school leaves the SoCon it historically has been a mixed bag. Some make it..some don't...some ate still to be determined.

6. In 10 years however the SoCon is made up membership-wise there will be members debating if the SoCon family tree hasn't started to max out and maybe needs a little self-pruning.

[HaveFunKc]

get rid of Furman? ok with mexsmiley_wix

I thought this was funny, but...


i'll have to kick your ass for that

But you had me on the floor here... xlolx

[OL FU]

Who were the last 3 members admitted to the SoCon? Samford, Elon, and who?

And over all we are now at 12 teams 6 small 6 large.

[OL FU]

Who were the last 3 members admitted to the SoCon? Samford, Elon, and who?

And over all we are now at 12 teams 6 small 6 large. and how does your comment refute anything I said

[OL FU]

Not at all. There wasn't in the mid 90's when it was Furman, 2 service academies, and public schools.

But the reason the 90's looked like that was due to the exit of Richmond and W&M. I think they had a problem with some of the public schools we were bringing in in the 70sxrolleyesx

[OL FU]

One could argue that overall the Socon has improved since the early and mid-90s. GSU was bad in the early and mid nineties and App. and Furman weren't that great either. Since then we have all gotten better and now we have Wofford will probably add their second playoff appearance this year and what should be their third (were it not for the infamous "Woof" from 2002). Overall, I'd say the Socon of the 00's is better than that of the 90s, football wise.

Nice point. ASU was pretty good in the mid 90s if I remember. Furman was not good during the mid 90s

[OL FU]

I tend to agree. I have ranted about the direction of the conference a long time, but with the addition to Samford I have given up that idea. The conference is what it is and there is little ASU or GSU can do about it. ASU and GSU have outgron the SoCon and it is up to our respective institutions to find new homes. I've always wondered why Furman, Wofford, Elon, William & Mary, The Citadel, Davidson, Richmond, and VMI didn't form their own league. Seven for football and eight for everything else. It makes sense, probably the resson it'll never happen. Just like UNCA, UNCC, UNCG, UNCW, CofC, ETSU, VCU, & Winthrop should be in a league together.


I would argue with the term outgrown and suggest it should be ASU and GSU have changed athletic directions. There is a purpose for all conferences and divisions. Some match individual schools and some don't. Because the SoCon might not be a fit for GSU and ASU now or at some time in the future, does not mean more than the purpose of the conferences no longer meets the goals of the the institutions. Outgrown sounds demeaning.

[OL FU]

Where did I say I wanted ASU to leave? I don't want to right this very moment. Why can I not voice my opinion that I don't think the SoCon has strengthened its position in the past 10-15 years? If you don't want to hear it, put me and others on ignore or stop reading.

If you haven't noticed ASU has no where to go right now, so we'd like to make the best of what we have to work with. In recent history the SoCon hasn't been adding members to progress the conference athletically (especially football).

Strangely enough I would say we have fallen most in basketball. In the 60s Davidson was a consistent top ten team. 70's Furman consistent top 20 and 80s Chatt was in the top twenty a few times. Of course basket ball has changed but that used to be our strength

[AppMan]

App should be wary. Marshall, for instance, was absolutely dominant when they left the conference. App has been to the past two national championships, yes, but Marshall was in the NC game in 87, 91,92,93,95 and 96 winning twice. Fact is, Marshall was a more dominant team, IMO, then than App is now.

Now they are sporting an 0-5 record this year in CUSA and really haven't been that competitive in 12 years.

Marshall's cumulative record during their non-competitive 12 years in 1-a is 105 - 38. Twenty of those losses have come in the past 3 years. Everyone has down periods and they are in one. A few years back nobody was using Marshall as an example of failure in moving up when they were winning and ranked. But, they have a couple of bad years and everyone starts piling on. Now nobody wants to talk about #5 ranked South Florida (who never was any good at the 1-aa level), Boise State, U Conn and other schools who made the jump and have been successful. Not every school making the move up to the FCS from D-II are world beaters either, but all those people get are praises for making that move. This is a FCS "feel good" site and I'd expect nothing less from the folks who hang out here. However, it would be good to see both sides of the issue and correct facts & figures used instead of personal opinions.

[OL FU]

If you look at the Southern Conference's history, this isn't a new debate.

Two very significant membership moves were due to schools feeling the smaller schools were keeping them down.

The SoCon started in 1922 with 21 members:

Alabama
Auburn
Clemson
Florida
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Kentucky
Louisiana St.
Maryland
Mississippi
Mississippi St.
North Carolina
North Carolina St.
Sewanee
South Carolina
Tennessee
Tulane
Vanderbilt
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Washington & Lee

A mix of public and private schools from the Tidewater of Virginia to the bayous of Louisiana.

In 1924 VMI was added.

In 1928 Duke was added.

In 1933 a significant portion split, forming the Southeastern Conference. The biggest reason for the split was because the larger schools felt that the smaller schools were keeping them down.
Members that left:

Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Kentucky
Louisiana St.
Mississippi
Mississippi St.
Sewanee
Tennessee
Tulane
Vanderbilt

1933 SoCon lineup:

Clemson
Duke
Maryland
North Carolina
North Carolina St
South Carolina
Virginia
Virginia Tech
VMI
Washington and Lee

In 1936 the ACC expanded by adding schools from the Carolinas and Virginia:

Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Richmond
Wake Forest
William & Mary

In 1938, in part because of the "little schools keeping them down" Virginia left for life as an Independent.

In 1941 George Washington was added.

In 1950 West Virginia was added.

In 1952 and 1953 due to a SoCon rule where only the league champion could participate in bow games, the bulk of the large publics along with a couple of allied privates left to create the Atlantic Coast Conference.

1952 departees
Clemson
Maryland

1953 departees

Duke
North Carolina
North Carolina St.
South Carolina
Wake Forest


No conference out there has had as much turnover as the SoCon has in it's history.

What does this little history lesson tell you?

1. It'll be 8 more years until Furman and The Citadel have more time in the SoCon than VMI had when they left in 2003.

2. There has always been strife between the smaller and larger schools, and the publics and privates.

3. When a group of schools from the SoCon decides to moveAS A GROUP they tend to be very, very successful as a group.

4. Each time the above mentioned group does make a move the SoCon as a whole tends to lose stature.

5. When a single school leaves the SoCon it historically has been a mixed bag. Some make it..some don't...some ate still to be determined.

6. In 10 years however the SoCon is made up membership-wise there will be members debating if the SoCon family tree hasn't started to max out and maybe needs a little self-pruning.

I am not an athletic conference historian so keep that in mind but the moves were appropriate. The conference at the time of the moves was absolutely huge. I think at one time the conference 20+ teams which is ridiculous. The evolution of bowls and the increasing importance of the NCAA basketball tournament ( remember at one time the NIT was the premier basketball tournament) made large conferences irrelevant. But the schools left the conference and went on to be premier conferences among the big boys. I think the SoCon has historically had something of an identity crises but what do you expect when you have 25 teams in a conference. From a football perspective, I think I-AA finally gave the conference an identity. However, I think it is unfair to think that the smaller longer term members should not have a substantial number of like minded schools in the conference. Everytime we add a larger ( growth ) school, we add them with the realization that they may move on. When we add a smaller school we add a permanent member. People should keep that in mind. I doubt seriously that any of the smaller schools have in mind adding only small schools ( it may eventually end up that way and if it does so be it). If the conferense had not added smaller schools after the departure of Richmond and W&M, my guess is that Furman would have chosen a different path and changed conferences. But I still say the same as I have said before, when ASU entered the conference it was a mixed bag of small and large. When GSU entered it was a mixed bag ( although a little less so at that point) If ASU, GSU and others no longer think that association is in their best interest they have every right to move on and God speed. However, the issue is with the individual schools, not the conference.


An interesting point mentioned by the EKU poster, the SoCon has informally expressed an interest in EKU but for whatever reason (timing, etc. ) EKU did not appear ready to make the move. He mentioned the last time was 2001. I think that shows that EKU has been in the sites of the SoCon and of course EKU is not a small school. Let's face it. I don't think the SoCon is going to announce officially they are interested in a school unless there is some degree of certainty that school will move. Look at how the OVC looked in the courting of UTC last year after UTC's rejection. Personally, I think UTC was using the possible move to get some concessions from the other SoCon schools ( just a guess ).


Regarding Jacksonville State who would have been my first choice. I now think the SoCon made the correct decision based on JSU's now public intention of moving to I-A. I have heard some posters say they thought the decision was made because they weren't offered by the SoCon and their only close neighbor, Samford, was changing conferences. Whatever the reason, my guess is that the SoCon understood that Jacksonville State might make that move so an offer to Jacksonville State would have been a mistake and possibly an embarrassment. Offerring JSU and then an announcement that they were moving to I-A a year later would have made the conference look ridiculous.

[AppMan]

there was a league like the one you mentioned but your, wcu, and marshall being subpar academic institutions entering it caused the VA schools to leave. this league was called THE SOUTHERN CONFERENCE!

If the league took such a bad hit academically after ASU joined why didn't you guys, VMI, Furman and Davidson go with them?

[OL FU]

Marshall's cumulative record during their non-competitive 12 years in 1-a is 105 - 38. Twenty of those losses have come in the past 3 years. Everyone has down periods and they are in one. A few years back nobody was using Marshall as an example of failure in moving up when they were winning and ranked. But, they have a couple of bad years and everyone starts piling on. Now nobody wants to talk about #5 ranked South Florida (who never was any good at the 1-aa level), Boise State, U Conn and other schools who made the jump and have been successful. Not every school making the move up to the FCS from D-II are world beaters either, but all those people get are praises for making that move. This is a FCS "feel good" site and I'd expect nothing less from the folks who hang out here. However, it would be good to see both sides of the issue and correct facts & figures used instead of personal opinions.


I agree. I don't really keep up with I-A but I am no I-A hater. We debate all day about whether teams should stay or go but it is really what is in the best interest of the schools. A school whose fan base is ready to move and contribute financially to such move and would be happy after the move is done whether they play in a bowl or not, more power to them and I wish them luck. I want say many good things about Marshall, but I have no doubt their fans are happier in I-A. So from a fan perspective, good move or not for other reasons, the move is a success.

Sometimes we confuse our own schools goals with what is right or wrong. Furman will never move to I-A and we shouldn't. School size, fan base, monetary issues ( even though we have quite an endowment, it is for academics first and it should be) will keep us in I-AA. I am quite happy with our place in the division. xnodx

[OL FU]

I've been asking myself this question for awhile.

Thanks to those who think highly enough of Jax State to want to add us. I wish you'd lobbied your admins for it. In many ways, I think Jax State would have been a better fit, but there are a couple factors where Samford would have an edge:

1) Facilitates for everything but football are better than ours, or soon will be.

2) Men's basketball is strong. We have been committed to mediocrity in that sport for about five years now.

Also, they're an exclusive, expensive private college with a law school. If you think that makes them more attractive as a conference member, more power to you. Theoretically their alums will, on average, have more money than ours. As a public school with admittedly lower admission standards, we have a much larger base of alumni, many of whom actually come to the games and support the programs. (I don't judge a school by its incoming freshmen - people who've never attended a class. When it comes to what they do after graduation, JSU stacks up just fine).

That's really about it. In every other way, JSU looks as good or better.

1) If you think Samford "brings the Birmingham media market," then JSU probably does so a little better. We're an hour outside the city, but considered part of the B'ham TV market. We must have thousands more alumni in the area than Samford does. Plus, we're already on TV there and throughout the region on a regular basis. When the OVC failed to deliver a conference TV package, we went out and got our own, with all or most of our home games broadcast on CSS the last two years, and plenty of regional appearances before that. I can't say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure Samford can't claim the same.

2) While Samford is demonstrating a commitment to "improving the program" by hiring Pat Sullivan, JSU has a 100-year-plus winning tradition already in place, with D-II titles in football, men's basketball and baseball (twice). Our first 10 years in D-I were an anomaly for the football program, which has since started playing like a winner again (though not quite yet where we'd like to be). No one in Jacksonville is going to be satisfied until every sport is brining home titles in whatever conference we're in. The best measure of the relative strength of the programs: We're 9-3 against Samford since joining them in D-I, winning the last seven games in a row.

3) People actually come to our games. The crowds aren't as big as I'd like (especially this year), but they're certainly bigger than what you'll see in the stands at Samford. Our average home attendance last year was nearly double theirs.

I've said most of this here before, but as long as people keep bringing it up I'm happy to repeat it. And yes, it's just sour grapes on my part. The SoCon made its choice, and I look forward to seeing how that works out for all involved.

AS I said in another post. I know you had not announced at the time of the Samford announcement,but don't you think that the possibility of you guys moving to the FBS was in the back of the Socon's mind when considering JSU. You guys were my first choice. But I think we made the right decision considering your announcement to move up xnodx

[JaxSinfonian]

AS I said in another post. I know you had not announced at the time of the Samford announcement,but don't you think that the possibility of you guys moving to the FBS was in the back of the Socon's mind when considering JSU. You guys were my first choice. But I think we made the right decision considering your announcement to move up xnodx

JSU hasn't announced it's moving up. It's said it's studying the feasibility of such a move. Obviously there are some members of the board of trustees who want this to happen. But we're still gonna need a conference and a few million dollars. No one advocating a jump has yet produced either.

Had the SoCon invited JSU in Samford's place, I do not think we would be pursuing FBS.

[citdog]

If the league took such a bad hit academically after ASU joined why didn't you guys, VMI, Furman and Davidson go with them?

let you run us out of OUR league? don't think so

[Saint3333]

Look, I wasn't very excited about Samfor either. I was in favor of Coastal or Jax St., but that's not what I have an issue with in your attitude. You act like being in a conference with Furman and Wofford has been a burden for you and somehow kept ASU from reaching some mysterious athletic goal. WTF? You only won the NC two times in a row. And don't ****ing lump us in with Samford and Elon! What a bunch of ****ing elitist pr**ks you guys are. I got news for you, 90% of your student body couldn't get on the waiting list to get into Furman, and we still consistently compete with you in most sports. Yeah, so we had a bad game last year, but before that our games were down to the wire. Who the **** do you think you are? Guess what? Your ***** stinks just like everybody elses.xnodx

Oh yeah, and yes you are entitled to express you opinion, but that doesn't mean you have to beat the ****ing thing into the ground and then dig it up and start all over again! Give it a rest! It's getting as bad as TERERO FEVER.xnonono2x xrolleyesx xcoffeex

DD just don't not respond then...

Read my posts, have I ever complained about being in a conference with Furman, unlike the others you have football tradition and bring fans.

As for 90% of the ASU students couldn't get on the waiting list to Furman (which is a load of BS given the AVERAGE SAT score of 1140 and GPA of 3.7) and WE are the elistist pricks. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[OL FU]

JSU hasn't announced it's moving up. It's said it's studying the feasibility of such a move. Obviously there are some members of the board of trustees who want this to happen. But we're still gonna need a conference and a few million dollars. No one advocating a jump has yet produced either.

Had the SoCon invited JSU in Samford's place, I do not think we would be pursuing FBS.

Well it is certainly seems to be moving in that direction which in my opinion is enough of a reason to not consider JSU. xtwocentsx

[Cocky]

I can't understand how hiring Pat Sullivan is considered such an upgrade. If your whole world is Samford maybe yes it is, but he wouldn't be an upgrade at most schools. The guy has not won longer term anywhere. The media in Alabama love him and give him a pass on most things but he isn't a great coach.

[Appaholic]

App should be wary. Marshall, for instance, was absolutely dominant when they left the conference. App has been to the past two national championships, yes, but Marshall was in the NC game in 87, 91,92,93,95 and 96 winning twice. Fact is, Marshall was a more dominant team, IMO, then than App is now.
Now they are sporting an 0-5 record this year in CUSA and really haven't been that competitive in 12 years.


And yes, Furman hasn't won in Boone since 96. Good news is App has only one once in Greenville since 1995. Pretty much balances out right there.

Agreed xthumbsupx

[Appaholic]

Saint was confused. Service academies are places where young men go to be a soldier, not play soldier.

And Citadel is where young boys go who can't get in the service academies and like to play soldier.......or bell hop, uniform is versatile...





Good Morning Citdog

[gophoenix]

Football - from 1990:

GSU comes in, Marshall leaves, Wofford comes in, VMI leaves, Elon comes in, ETSU leaves, Samford comes in

mid 90's---2008:

ASU---ASU
Citadel---Citadel
ETSU---Samford (natural rival for ASU in exchange for small private 500 miles away)
Furman---Furman
GSU---GSU
Marshall---Wofford (Marshall huge fan base, winning tradition)
UTC---UTC
WCU---WCU
VMI---Elon (loss of tradition, finally an upgrade in football this year)

And people wonder why ASU fans aren't excited about the changes in the SoCon


Here, I fixed it for you without the spin, let's go back and look at it in the modern era (post 1970s-ish):

Virginia Tech leaves, ECU comes in (ECU was a recent NAIA moveup)
West Virginia leaves
George Washington leaves App comes in (App was a recent NAIA moveup)
Richmond Leaves and ETSU comes in (D-II moveup)
William & Mary Leaves and Western Carolina comes in (recent NAIA moveup, D-II moveup)
Marshall comes in (established D-I school)
ECU Leaves and UTC Comes in (D-II moveup)
Davidson Leaves, GSU comes in (established I-AA school)
Marshall leaves and Wofford comes in (D-II moveup)
VMI is kicked out and Elon comes in (recent D-II moveup)
ETSU is kicked out and Samford comes in (established I-AA school)

So the recap... The 1970s saw all the private schools leaving because the public schools came in and tainted the conference, for better or worse but is up for debate. So mark that, from 1967 to early 1980s, mark that, 4 private/public institutions (Davidson, Richmond and GW/W&M act like private in many ways) for 1 smaller public D-II schools move-ups (UTC/ETSU) and a smaller NAIA school in Western Carolina. And a large public university left for a recent NAIA moveup in App State.

And now in the past ten years, 1 SoCon school has basically voluntarily left while two (ETSU and VMI) were dismissed. Out of this, 1 D-II moveup was admitted. One recent D-II moveup was admitted in Elon. And one established I-AA school (for better or worse) was admitted in Samford. All three were private.

So as I can tell. The establish SoCon of the 70s era lost 4 private-like schools to admit a bunch of lower division moveups. And now, the 90s era SoCon has seen public schools stop football at the SoCon level, and admit private schools.

Essentially, since 1966 the SoCon has admitted 3 schools who were not recent moveups to the division being played: Samford, Marshall and Georgia Southern. Everyone else was a recent moveup from a lower division.

So as much as you public school types want to keep this high and mightly attitude and this chip on your shoulder, give me a break. Admitting Wofford and Elon was no different than accepting App, ETSU, UTC and others back in the day. And the change in SoCon makeup caused by the public schools in the 70s is different than now, so far, you guys are just complaining, Elon/Wofford/Samford has not caused the SoCon to fall apart like admitting other schools did in the 1970s.

If anyone has a right to complain, it is Furman and The Citadel. They've lasted through more moveups, private schools, bad publics schools that got better, large regional universities, loads of schools leaving. Whatever.... they've been through more than anything App fans sit and complain about.

[citdog]

And Citadel is where young boys go who can't get in the service academies and like to play soldier.......or bell hop, uniform is versatile...


The Citadel is where MEN who have a pair betwixt their legs go through a system that the federal schools can't match in intensity or cruelty.

[citdog]

Saint was confused. Service academies are places where young men go to be a soldier, not play soldier.


play soldier my ass. i was a soldier. two wars for me, you?

[bodoyle]

xeyebrowx You mean why did we not want to lose UTC? I can't think of many conferences that want to lose members period much less to another conferense of similar stature ie the OVC.

My bad OL.

[appheel]

Look, I wasn't very excited about Samfor either. I was in favor of Coastal or Jax St., but that's not what I have an issue with in your attitude. You act like being in a conference with Furman and Wofford has been a burden for you and somehow kept ASU from reaching some mysterious athletic goal. WTF? You only won the NC two times in a row. And don't ****ing lump us in with Samford and Elon! What a bunch of ****ing elitist pr**ks you guys are. I got news for you, 90% of your student body couldn't get on the waiting list to get into Furman, and we still consistently compete with you in most sports. Yeah, so we had a bad game last year, but before that our games were down to the wire. Who the **** do you think you are? Guess what? Your ***** stinks just like everybody elses.xnodx

Oh yeah, and yes you are entitled to express you opinion, but that doesn't mean you have to beat the ****ing thing into the ground and then dig it up and start all over again! Give it a rest! It's getting as bad as TERERO FEVER.xnonono2x xrolleyesx xcoffeex

Okay...whose the elitist pr**k again? Get off your high horse, you're starting to sound like a dookie.

[tke504oa]

Just wanted to add Apps incoming freshman average GPA is 3.7 and average sat is 1133 does not seem to shabby to me. I do not know what it is at FU but App has some good numbers there.

[terrierbob]

Y'all must be bored.

[OL FU]

Just wanted to add Apps incoming freshman average GPA is 3.7 and average sat is 1133 does not seem to shabby to me. I do not know what it is at FU but App has some good numbers there.

I am fairly certain I read the average was 1300 for 2006 incoming freshman.

In other words, I would not have been admitted to Furman in 2006:o xsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

Y'all must be bored.

We are defending Wofford's honor which is more than you have ever done - - - to paraphrase my favorite marxistxsmiley_wix xlolx

[tke504oa]

I did kinnda cheat on the research for my info the Chancellor just sent us an e-mail last night about it. hehe.xsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

Here, I fixed it for you without the spin, let's go back and look at it in the modern era (post 1970s-ish):

Virginia Tech leaves, ECU comes in (ECU was a recent NAIA moveup)
West Virginia leaves
George Washington leaves App comes in (App was a recent NAIA moveup)
Richmond Leaves and ETSU comes in (D-II moveup)
William & Mary Leaves and Western Carolina comes in (recent NAIA moveup, D-II moveup)
Marshall comes in (established D-I school)
ECU Leaves and UTC Comes in (D-II moveup)
Davidson Leaves, GSU comes in (established I-AA school)
Marshall leaves and Wofford comes in (D-II moveup)
VMI is kicked out and Elon comes in (recent D-II moveup)
ETSU is kicked out and Samford comes in (established I-AA school)

So the recap... The 1970s saw all the private schools leaving because the public schools came in and tainted the conference, for better or worse but is up for debate. So mark that, from 1967 to early 1980s, mark that, 4 private/public institutions (Davidson, Richmond and GW/W&M act like private in many ways) for 1 smaller public D-II schools move-ups (UTC/ETSU) and a smaller NAIA school in Western Carolina. And a large public university left for a recent NAIA moveup in App State.

And now in the past ten years, 1 SoCon school has basically voluntarily left while two (ETSU and VMI) were dismissed. Out of this, 1 D-II moveup was admitted. One recent D-II moveup was admitted in Elon. And one established I-AA school (for better or worse) was admitted in Samford. All three were private.

So as I can tell. The establish SoCon of the 70s era lost 4 private-like schools to admit a bunch of lower division moveups. And now, the 90s era SoCon has seen public schools stop football at the SoCon level, and admit private schools.

Essentially, since 1966 the SoCon has admitted 3 schools who were not recent moveups to the division being played: Samford, Marshall and Georgia Southern. Everyone else was a recent moveup from a lower division.

So as much as you public school types want to keep this high and mightly attitude and this chip on your shoulder, give me a break. Admitting Wofford and Elon was no different than accepting App, ETSU, UTC and others back in the day. And the change in SoCon makeup caused by the public schools in the 70s is different than now, so far, you guys are just complaining, Elon/Wofford/Samford has not caused the SoCon to fall apart like admitting other schools did in the 1970s.

If anyone has a right to complain, it is Furman and The Citadel. They've lasted through more moveups, private schools, bad publics schools that got better, large regional universities, loads of schools leaving. Whatever.... they've been through more than anything App fans sit and complain about.


A good perspective on historical additions to the SoCon pointing out that most of your recent additions have been transitioning programsxnodx

[Appaholic]

The Citadel is where MEN who have a pair betwixt their legs go through a system that the federal schools can't match in intensity or cruelty.

Obviously......

[mountaineertider]

Wow some of the Furman folks are sounding like Carolina/ NC State people now..."App's where you go when you can't get in anywhere else" or "App is academically lower than (insert school here)"

In fact, I know at least one person at Appalachian that was recruited to go visit Furman for academic reasons. ;)

[Saint3333]

No spin from the mid 90's until today, facts are facts.

I'm not sure VMI was "kicked out", it was there decision to play at a lower level.

Are you guys suggesting the SoCon a slippery slope conference?

[PaladinFan]

Wow some of the Furman folks are sounding like Carolina/ NC State people now..."App's where you go when you can't get in anywhere else" or "App is academically lower than (insert school here)"

In fact, I know at least one person at Appalachian that was recruited to go visit Furman for academic reasons. ;)

I think most of the people ridiculing your academics were the Citadel folks. Academically the numbers speak for themselves. There is no reason to get into a pissing match.

[citdog]

There is no reason to get into a pissing match.


because we have bigger schmeckles than you do!xnodx

[OL FU]

No spin from the mid 90's until today, facts are facts.

I'm not sure VMI was "kicked out", it was there decision to play at a lower level.

Are you guys suggesting the SoCon a slippery slope conference?

I believe VMI wanted to change conferences for football only and they were told they could not do so. Either stay in the Socon for football or leave. Which to change subjects one more time, is why so many have hard feelings to ETSU since they supposedly were a main proponent of VMI having to play football in the SoCon in order to remain in the conferencexrotatehx xrolleyesx xlolx

Oh well what goes around comes aroundxnodx

[mountaineertider]

oh whoops.

I won't get in a pissing match with anyone from The Citadel, I have the utmost respect for them and the only time I'll bad talk them is when they are on the other side of Kidd Brewer Stadium.

[OL FU]

oh whoops.

I won't get in a pissing match with anyone from The Citadel, I have the utmost respect for them and the only time I'll bad talk them is when they are on the other side of Kidd Brewer Stadium.


You don't know many of them, do youxconfusedx xsmiley_wix

[citdog]

oh whoops.

I won't get in a pissing match with anyone from The Citadel, I have the utmost respect for them and the only time I'll bad talk them is when they are on the other side of Kidd Brewer Stadium.



smart kid!

[citdog]

You don't know many of them, do youxconfusedx xsmiley_wix



OL FU and I are good friends, except for this week. this week he's a nutless Vermin ****STICK!xnodx

[OL FU]

OL FU and I are good friends, except for this week. this week he's a nutless Vermin ****STICK!xnodx

And citdog is a tipless bell hopxsmiley_wix

PS, if any of you think that citdog maybe different in person, he his.









He is 10X worsexlolx

Tuesdayxprost2x
http://home.earthlink.net/~mikerider/webpics/GuinnessBeer.jpg

[WVAPPmountaineer]

OK - I have read all the back and forth but back to the original question that was posed - Why was Samford added to the SoCon? - Again, my understanding was it was done to keep UTC from jumping - it gave them a "travel partner" for many sports, etc. - I don't think the SoCon wanted to lose another member and be down to 7 football playing teams - If anyone has info regarding what they heard as to why this move was made I would like to hear it - I also heard that the other SoCon members in South Carolina did not want Coastal ---

[citdog]

And citdog is a tipless bell hopxsmiley_wix

PS, if any of you think that citdog maybe different in person, he his.









He is 10X worsexlolx

Tuesdayxprost2x
http://home.earthlink.net/~mikerider/webpics/GuinnessBeer.jpg


i am that! and getting THIRSTY!

[lizrdgizrd]

because we have bigger schmeckles than you do!xnodx
Who did you steal them from? xeyebrowx

[citdog]

Who did you steal them from? xeyebrowx


GIFTS FROM JEHOVAH!xnodx xreadx

[OL FU]

OK - I have read all the back and forth but back to the original question that was posed - Why was Samford added to the SoCon? - Again, my understanding was it was done to keep UTC from jumping - it gave them a "travel partner" for many sports, etc. - I don't think the SoCon wanted to lose another member and be down to 7 football playing teams - If anyone has info regarding what they heard as to why this move was made I would like to hear it - I also heard that the other SoCon members in South Carolina did not want Coastal ---

Why did we want Samford, because we didn't want Presbyterianxeyebrowx

[terrierbob]

We are defending Wofford's honor which is more than you have ever done - - - to paraphrase my favorite marxistxsmiley_wix xlolx
Which one is that?

[citdog]

Why did we want Samford, because we didn't want Presbyterianxeyebrowx


we already have the Baptists and the Anglicans and the Calvinists would have been one, well three, too many!xwhistlex

[gophoenix]

No spin from the mid 90's until today, facts are facts.

I'm not sure VMI was "kicked out", it was there decision to play at a lower level.

Are you guys suggesting the SoCon a slippery slope conference?

No, you made it sound like only the last three additions were moveups. When in truth, nearly every school admitted since the 1960s have been moveups.

VMI was basically kicked out. It is like letting a coach resign rather than being fired. VMI made the decision to play football elsewhere, thus the conference telling them being in the SoCon was an all or nothing deal.

Not sure what you mean by the SoCon being slippery slope. I think the SoCon has made very few bad additions over the course of it's history, even now. As most schools, including Marshall, started out slow and worked their way to be good.

[Death Dealer]

DD just don't not respond then...

Read my posts, have I ever complained about being in a conference with Furman, unlike the others you have football tradition and bring fans.

As for 90% of the ASU students couldn't get on the waiting list to Furman (which is a load of BS given the AVERAGE SAT score of 1140 and GPA of 3.7) and WE are the elistist pricks. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I apologize for the tirade last night. I blame it on too much sake at the Sushi Hana. xoopsx And I get a little ruffled when someone plays the small private school card on us.

But I stand by the basic premise of my post. App St. has benefited from their membership in the SOCON and would be smart to continue to do so. Their departure would be a loss for both parties.

The SOCON will bring in more schools and when they do, I'm convinced it will have to be a larger public school or two.

As for the academic side of things, I don't care about Apps academics. That is your business. Appy and FU are two very different schools in many ways, academics is one of those. I was making a point that it is possible to be a small private with very high academic standards and still be very competitive in athletics. It was your side of the argument that formented the "small private and quasi-private schools are ruining the SOCON" argument.

The elitist comment was out of line and I apologize. It just comes across that way when after one year of dominance, suddenly several of your fans (and I know it's not all, but there are a lot) seem to think they are so above the rest of the conference. I was just pointing out that it wasn't that long ago that you had to struggle to beat us and even lost a few. And it is a very short trip back to that spot.

Yes, we have smaller facilities than Appy. That's because we are a smaller institution and smaller definitely does not imply lesser. I don't think we need to "keep up" as one of your brood seems to think. We have always kept up and will continue to do so in the future. But for Furman or Wofford to build a stadium that can house 30,000 people would be absolutely insane. We have a student body of 2600! Do the math, we don't have that many living alumni! Even if you divided that 2600 evenly among all four years, assume that every one of those graduated and all of them lived to the age of 80 (of course the SB has grown significantly in the last 60 years, but lets assume it hasn't), then that's 650 grads a year, for the last 60 years. That's 39,000 living alumni. xeekx Of course, we don't have nearly that many and never will. xnonono2x And show me a school that has 100% alumni involvement in athletics. xrolleyesx Add to that the fact that we are smack dab between Clemson and USC, which means that there are two very high profile programs to draw off the fans that didn't go to college , or at least not in this area, but want to go to a college football game, and I think our attendence is pretty good. We put a lot of resources into our program for a school our size, and so does Wofford. And remember, Wofford is much smaller than Furman.xnodx Contrary to Citdogs opinion, size really doesn't matter that much if the institution is committed to fielding a quality team. I am reserving judgement on whether Samford fits that bill.

Again, my frustration with the tone of this thread hasn't been the dislike of the decision to bring in Samford over some other possible choices. I share that dislike for the most part, but that die is cast. What got me all twitterpated was the general tone of superiority and the air of condescension towards all us poor "smallies".

[Death Dealer]

Wow some of the Furman folks are sounding like Carolina/ NC State people now..."App's where you go when you can't get in anywhere else" or "App is academically lower than (insert school here)"

In fact, I know at least one person at Appalachian that was recruited to go visit Furman for academic reasons. ;)
I wasn't so much ridiculing your academics as pointing out that high academics and small size does not translate into lesser quality in athletics. I don't care what you do with academics, it isn't an issue with us. It only seems to be an issue from your side of the argument. I love having Appy in the SOCON and have never once wanted to see them leave or for FU to leave. I would like to see all the teams that are currently members stay and add a few more high quality programs (note, I said high quality, not large or small)

[Death Dealer]

OK - I have read all the back and forth but back to the original question that was posed - Why was Samford added to the SoCon? - Again, my understanding was it was done to keep UTC from jumping - it gave them a "travel partner" for many sports, etc. - I don't think the SoCon wanted to lose another member and be down to 7 football playing teams - If anyone has info regarding what they heard as to why this move was made I would like to hear it - I also heard that the other SoCon members in South Carolina did not want Coastal ---I think one thing that worked against Coastal was geography. Too far East of Chattanooga and in South Carolina. Honestly, the SOCON teams in S.C. could pull out, pick up SC state, Coastal, Presby., and Winthrop (when they get a program going, which if the rumor mill around Rock Hill is right will be very soon and very impressive as to amount of money they are willing to spend) and form our own football conference. I think the general consensus is that we were a little top heavy in S.C. schools in the SOCON right now. Maybe that's just misinformation that has been spread around, but it sure seems to be a prevalent reason put forward.

[Saint3333]

No, you made it sound like only the last three additions were moveups. When in truth, nearly every school admitted since the 1960s have been moveups.

VMI was basically kicked out. It is like letting a coach resign rather than being fired. VMI made the decision to play football elsewhere, thus the conference telling them being in the SoCon was an all or nothing deal.

Not sure what you mean by the SoCon being slippery slope. I think the SoCon has made very few bad additions over the course of it's history, even now. As most schools, including Marshall, started out slow and worked their way to be good.

Did a little research:

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/southern/membership.php

It appears that ECU, Richmond, and W&M didn't leave until 5 years after ASU joined when Marshall, UTC, and WCU joined.

Looks like ASU replaced WVU (I bet the SoCon was pissed)

It seems like the SoCon is a jumpstart conference now unlike the other major FCS conferences (CAA & Gateway).

These conferences don't take transitional programs they start out in other conferences, build a reputation and then move "up", i.e. NDSU & SDSU to the Gateway.

Before joining the SoCon - WC, Elon, and Samford hadn't proven they could win at the FCS level.

The truth is WVU might have started this whole trend in 1950 as before they joined the SoCon they were an average football program.

Which led to other average programs (at their respective time) joining later: ECU, ASU, Marshall, UTC, WCU.

The SoCon is responsible for building up a lot of programs.

Back to the point, why can't we just go after established programs?

[OL FU]

Which one is that?

Groucho

[Saint3333]

The elitist comment was out of line and I apologize. It just comes across that way when after one year of dominance, suddenly several of your fans (and I know it's not all, but there are a lot) seem to think they are so above the rest of the conference. I was just pointing out that it wasn't that long ago that you had to struggle to beat us and even lost a few. And it is a very short trip back to that spot.


Thank you. BTW I've been a fan since the mid 80's and been on this board and two before it, but I do understand your comments about the "new" posters.

It's never been about small or private schools. I've never had a problem with ASU playing Furman, DC, or Wake.

[chattanoogamocs]

OK - I have read all the back and forth but back to the original question that was posed - Why was Samford added to the SoCon? - Again, my understanding was it was done to keep UTC from jumping - it gave them a "travel partner" for many sports, etc. - I don't think the SoCon wanted to lose another member and be down to 7 football playing teams - If anyone has info regarding what they heard as to why this move was made I would like to hear it - I also heard that the other SoCon members in South Carolina did not want Coastal ---

Samford wasn't added to keep UC from leaving because UC never seriously considered leaving in the first place. Just because we happen to be the closest team to them doesn't automatically mean it was done "just for Chattanooga". If the SoCon was really worried about how UC felt, they would have not dumped ETSU.

Sure, having a travel partner for Chattanooga is a perfectly good reason for the addition of Samford, but it is "a reason", not the only reason.

BTW, the SoCon and Samford had already begun to talk before the OVC approached Chattanooga. One could just as easily assume that the OVC went after UC to try and keep Samford from leaving. :)

[WVAPPmountaineer]

Thanks for your info - have you heard other reasons as to why? - I do believe the ETSU move was made because of them dropping football which has thrown the conference football scheduling out of balance since they left (3home-4away or reversed). My slant is a positive to UTC - not only do I feel they didn't want to lose UTC, they didn't want to lose the attractive destination city of Chattanooga

[youwouldno]

Academics were a big reason. App fans in particular seem mostly oblivious to the academics aspect, which might explain why App St's administration supposedly favored Samford over CCU (whereas the fans saw it quite differently).

The SoCon for instance has 4 of the top 10 'Master's Colleges' in the South region- Elon, CoC, Citadel, and App St. UTC and WCU are in the same category but are lower in the top tier. Davidson and Furman are ranked highly in the National Liberal Arts category (9th and 37th respectively). Football fans think exclusively in athletic terms, but conference affiliation is usually more than that.

Interestingly, Samford is categorized as a 'National University,' which I do not think is the case with any other SoCon programs. The categorization itself is not that important of course, but I was surprised to see it.

[gophoenix]

Did a little research:

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/southern/membership.php

It appears that ECU, Richmond, and W&M didn't leave until 5 years after ASU joined when Marshall, UTC, and WCU joined.

Looks like ASU replaced WVU (I bet the SoCon was pissed)

It seems like the SoCon is a jumpstart conference now unlike the other major FCS conferences (CAA & Gateway).

These conferences don't take transitional programs they start out in other conferences, build a reputation and then move "up", i.e. NDSU & SDSU to the Gateway.

Before joining the SoCon - WC, Elon, and Samford hadn't proven they could win at the FCS level.

The truth is WVU might have started this whole trend in 1950 as before they joined the SoCon they were an average football program.

Which led to other average programs (at their respective time) joining later: ECU, ASU, Marshall, UTC, WCU.

The SoCon is responsible for building up a lot of programs.

Back to the point, why can't we just go after established programs?

That contradicts some of the other information on their site, but this was the page I was looking for when I made the original post. Thanks for finding it.

Before joining the SoCon; UTC, ETSU and Western Carolina had not proven they could win at this level either. This is my complaint, this is about Elon, Wofford and Samford now for some reason when it seems hypocritical because of the history of almost all the schools added since the 1960s shows that most all of the new additions hadn't proven themselves at the SoCon level.

Define what an established program is? Samford has been in I-AA since 1989, that's nearly 20 years. I know you're a fan of James Madison, so, how is James Madison any more proven? They had a pretty roller coaster history until recently. You're also a fan of Eastern Kentucky, who with a smaller athletics budget than most SoCon schools had lots of success early on, but have been fairly average by most comparisons lately. Jacksonville State moved up to I-AA in 1995, until very recently they've been either average or bad; but you're a fan of them in the SoCon too.

Wofford was unproven. Elon had two good seasons and then turned abysmal. Samford had some descent teams early on and have been roughly pretty bad lately. So.... waht is the real difference other than some are a "bigger" name to some than others?

So, what defines an established program?

[PaladinFan]

I also wish we wouldn't think just in terms of football. A well rounded conference means a lot of different things.

App State, while great in football doesn't really produce a championship team in any other sport but track. Western, by contrast, while not recently successful in football has been making up for it in baseball. Furman's football team is struggling this year, but they have one of the top soccer teams in the country. Davidson and Charletson don't do much for our football, but they certainly have helped put basketball on the map.

Don't be so one dimensional with your view of athletics. This is a well rounded conference where every school produces a perennial contender in at least one, often more, sports.

[OL FU]

That contradicts some of the other information on their site, but this was the page I was looking for when I made the original post. Thanks for finding it.

Before joining the SoCon; UTC, ETSU and Western Carolina had not proven they could win at this level either. This is my complaint, this is about Elon, Wofford and Samford now for some reason when it seems hypocritical because of the history of almost all the schools added since the 1960s shows that most all of the new additions hadn't proven themselves at the SoCon level.

Define what an established program is? Samford has been in I-AA since 1989, that's nearly 20 years. I know you're a fan of James Madison, so, how is James Madison any more proven? They had a pretty roller coaster history until recently. You're also a fan of Eastern Kentucky, who with a smaller athletics budget than most SoCon schools had lots of success early on, but have been fairly average by most comparisons lately. Jacksonville State moved up to I-AA in 1995, until very recently they've been either average or bad; but you're a fan of them in the SoCon too.

Wofford was unproven. Elon had two good seasons and then turned abysmal. Samford had some descent teams early on and have been roughly pretty bad lately. So.... waht is the real difference other than some are a "bigger" name to some than others?

So, what defines an established program?


And the other issue is you can only expand with the teams that are willing to join. The Eastern Kentucky fan made fairly clear that EKU has not been totally positive about an invitation. I would argue that Coastal (while I would have like their entry) didn't expand the footprint and JSU's (while their fans might not agree) flirtation with I-A is enough to disqualify them.

So where to you go to expand (but not too far) the footprint? In Virginia, I don't think any of the CAA teams are going to change conferences. Tennessee, you could rob more OVC teams but I am not sure any of those have the football qualifications. Alabama, Jacksonville State is it. As far as large schools, JSU and EKU are the best choices, but they have to be willing to move or or in JSUs case be willing to stay in FCS for 20 years or more. xsmiley_wix

[Saint3333]

I also wish we wouldn't think just in terms of football. A well rounded conference means a lot of different things.

App State, while great in football doesn't really produce a championship team in any other sport but track. Western, by contrast, while not recently successful in football has been making up for it in baseball. Furman's football team is struggling this year, but they have one of the top soccer teams in the country. Davidson and Charletson don't do much for our football, but they certainly have helped put basketball on the map.

Don't be so one dimensional with your view of athletics. This is a well rounded conference where every school produces a perennial contender in at least one, often more, sports.

ASU won the cup for both men's and women's overall athletic program in 2005 and 2006. SoCon football, north division basketball champs/NIT bid, always solid in men's and women's indoor, outdoor, and cross country. While our baseball, soccer, and tennis programs are middle of the road.

ASU is the only team in SoCon history to defeat every other conference member in football, basketball, and baseball in the same season ('06-'07). You don't get any more well rounded than ASU in the SoCon.

[citdog]

ASU won the cup for both men's and women's overall athletic program in 2005 and 2006. SoCon football, north division basketball champs/NIT bid, always solid in men's and women's indoor, outdoor, and cross country. While our baseball, soccer, and tennis programs are middle of the road.

ASU is the only team in SoCon history to defeat every other conference member in football, basketball, and baseball in the same season ('06-'07). You don't get any more well rounded than ASU in the SoCon.


you SUCK in baseball. have you EVER won the SoCon?

[Saint3333]

And the other issue is you can only expand with the teams that are willing to join. The Eastern Kentucky fan made fairly clear that EKU has not been totally positive about an invitation. I would argue that Coastal (while I would have like their entry) didn't expand the footprint and JSU's (while their fans might not agree) flirtation with I-A is enough to disqualify them.

So where to you go to expand (but not too far) the footprint? In Virginia, I don't think any of the CAA teams are going to change conferences. Tennessee, you could rob more OVC teams but I am not sure any of those have the football qualifications. Alabama, Jacksonville State is it. As far as large schools, JSU and EKU are the best choices, but they have to be willing to move or or in JSUs case be willing to stay in FCS for 20 years or more. xsmiley_wix

You never know if you don't try, it seems like the SoCon takes the easy way. It's like asking the average looking girl to dance, because you're afraid the good looking will say no.

JSU (good baseball and been to the playoffs twice), EKU (multiple playoffs), and any VA school (good schools, good sports, good name) were established programs at the time the SoCon was looking. Would we have gotten these programs maybe/probably/probably not. We'll never know.

[OL FU]

you SUCK in baseball. have you EVER won the SoCon?


Aren't you suppose to be a carxrolleyesx

[Saint3333]

you SUCK in baseball. have you EVER won the SoCon?

try reading citdog, I claimed ASU was an average SoCon team, 4th last year maybe. I believe ASU won a couple in the 80's.

Coach Pollard is improving this team each year and will be in the top 4 again this year. Guess Citadel won't be able to beat ASU in any sport in a couple years.

[citdog]

Aren't you suppose to be a carxrolleyesx


no, i'm a DOG!xlolx





leaving at 5

[OL FU]

You never know if you don't try, it seems like the SoCon takes the easy way. It's like asking the average looking girl to dance, because you're afraid the good looking will say no.

JSU (good baseball and been to the playoffs twice), EKU (multiple playoffs), and any VA school (good schools, good sports, good name) were established programs at the time the SoCon was looking. Would we have gotten these programs maybe/probably/probably not. We'll never know.


Sounds to me like they tried with EKU. You know you ask 'em out to dinner, ply them with wine, start to give them a kiss, grab their ass, and when they tell you no, you call up the one you are sure will give it to youxnodx

[OL FU]

no, i'm a DOG!xlolx





leaving at 5


Another truthful statement:p

[citdog]

try reading citdog, I claimed ASU was an average SoCon team, 4th last year maybe. I believe ASU won a couple in the 80's.

Coach Pollard is improving this team each year and will be in the top 4 again this year. Guess The Citadel won't be able to beat ASU in any sport in a couple years.


19 Socon Baseball Championships since 1980 is ALL we have done.

[WUTNDITWAA]

Sounds to me like they tried with EKU. You know you ask 'em out to dinner, ply them with wine, start to give them a kiss, grab their ass, and when they tell you no, you call up the one you are sure will give it to youxnodx

Yeah, but now we're on the hook for child support to some snot-nosed brat, and we're not even sure it's ours. xoopsx

[WUTNDITWAA]

19 Socon Baseball Championships since 1980 is ALL we have done.

Add in the 1992 football championship and that about sums it ALL up. :D

[OL FU]

Yeah, but now we're on the hook for child support to some snot-nosed brat, and we're not even sure it's ours. xoopsx

Leave my personal life out of this will yaxrolleyesx



xlolx xlolx

[Jiggs]

I can't understand how hiring Pat Sullivan is considered such an upgrade. If your whole world is Samford maybe yes it is, but he wouldn't be an upgrade at most schools. The guy has not won longer term anywhere. The media in Alabama love him and give him a pass on most things but he isn't a great coach.

Let's see.....a coach that won the Heisman trophy or a coach that didn't play college football....hmmmm

[OL FU]

Let's see.....a coach that won the Heisman trophy or a coach that didn't play college football....hmmmm

Hey Jiggs you know the old saying:

It doesn't matter what people say when talking about you, as long as they keep talking about youxnodx

[Jiggs]

Hey Jiggs you know the old saying:

It doesn't matter what people say when talking about you, as long as they keep talking about youxnodx


That's right! Regardless of the varying opinions, Samford is proud to be joining the SoCon and is counting down the days.:)

[gophoenix]

You never know if you don't try, it seems like the SoCon takes the easy way. It's like asking the average looking girl to dance, because you're afraid the good looking will say no.

JSU (good baseball and been to the playoffs twice), EKU (multiple playoffs), and any VA school (good schools, good sports, good name) were established programs at the time the SoCon was looking. Would we have gotten these programs maybe/probably/probably not. We'll never know.

Do we have any information that the SoCon hasn't contacted some of these other schools? Maybe EKU really wasn't interested. Maybe Tenn Tech wanted to stay put.

Heck, both Elon and Liberty told the CAA no back in 2000 when the CAA came to talk about possibilities.

Maybe some of the more attractive people we could ask to dance have some real mental issues underneath (ie Coastal and others).

There are too many unknowns.

And that is untrue about App beating every conference member in Football, Basketball and Baseball. UTC doesn't play baseball.

[Saint3333]

And that is untrue about App beating every conference member in Football, Basketball and Baseball. UTC doesn't play baseball.

What no smiley face? We didn't beat CofC or UNCG in football either, but I think you know what I mean.

Pretty impressive stat though xthumbsupx.

[citdog]

Add in the 1992 football championship and that about sums it ALL up. :D

don't forget 1961!xnodx

[Cocky]

Let's see.....a coach that won the Heisman trophy or a coach that didn't play college football....hmmmm

I was talking about his coaching ability not his playing ability. Sullivan was a very decorated college football player, but that doesn't make you a great coach.

I'm not sure Jack even played high school and I wouldn't call his coaching an upgrade at most FCS schools. But, our coach has won a conference championship. Your coach was 24-42-1 going into this year as a head coach.

[Jiggs]

I was talking about his coaching ability not his playing ability. Sullivan was a very decorated college football player, but that doesn't make you a great coach.

I'm not sure Jack even played high school and I wouldn't call his coaching an upgrade at most FCS schools. But, our coach has won a conference championship. Your coach was 24-42-1 going into this year as a head coach.

Keep wallerin' in the OVC with your Troy envy, while Samford moves on.

[Cocky]

Keep wallerin' in the OVC with your Troy envy, while Samford moves on.

It's hard to waller when at the top. At least in the SOCON you will be wallerin' in the middle.

[chattanoogamocs]

Thanks for your info - have you heard other reasons as to why? - I do believe the ETSU move was made because of them dropping football which has thrown the conference football scheduling out of balance since they left (3home-4away or reversed). My slant is a positive to UTC - not only do I feel they didn't want to lose UTC, they didn't want to lose the attractive destination city of Chattanooga

Reasons for picking Samford (in no particular order...and not all are necessarily "actual" reasons, but they are at least of note)

1) The wanted to be in the SoCon (obviously, just because we think another team is a good fit doesn't mean they are interested in us)
2) They were willing to come early (paying a $200K exit fee)
3) It extends the footprint (the great majority of SoCon fans complain about it being a Carolina conference)
4) Academics (and this is not just a private school issue, the SoCon has good public institutions too and I think a strong academic school is in everyone's best interest)
5) Chattanooga travel partner (so when schools have to make the long drive to Tennessee, they, on the same weekend, can pick up another game less then 2 hours away)
6) Someone closer than 4 hours to Chattanooga (to try and help Chattanooga at least have one rival)
7) Facility enhancements (namely $32 million basketball complex, it shows they are truly interested in progressing)
8) Football history (they have had some great coaches go through the program and they have had more playoffs appearances than half of the SoCon's current programs and they have also made the "final four" in the playoffs)
9) Balanced program (they are good in a number of Olympic programs too)

[PaladinFan]

Reasons for picking Samford (in no particular order...and not all are necessarily "actual" reasons, but they are at least of note)

1) The wanted to be in the SoCon (obviously, just because we think another team is a good fit doesn't mean they are interested in us)
2) They were willing to come early (paying a $200K exit fee)
3) It extends the footprint (the great majority of SoCon fans complain about it being a Carolina conference)
4) Academics (and this is not just a private school issue, the SoCon has good public institutions too and I think a strong academic school is in everyone's best interest)
5) Chattanooga travel partner (so when schools have to make the long drive to Tennessee, they, on the same weekend, can pick up another game less then 2 hours away)
6) Someone closer than 4 hours to Chattanooga (to try and help Chattanooga at least have one rival)
7) Facility enhancements (namely $32 million basketball complex, it shows they are truly interested in progressing)
8) Football history (they have had some great coaches go through the program and they have had more playoffs appearances than half of the SoCon's current programs and they have also made the "final four" in the playoffs)
9) Balanced program (they are good in a number of Olympic programs too)

someone who actually seems to have a clue. xthumbsupx

[chattanoogamocs]

BTW, we were talking about SoCon and the playoffs on Mocfans recently and I put together this little history lesson, thought it might be interesting to copy here (if I made any mistakes, please let me know), I have added Samford to the list too...

Georgia Southern 15*
(last appearance: 2005)
38-10, 6 titles (6-2 in title game)

Furman 15
(last appearance: 2006)
15-11, 1 title, (1-3 in title game)

Appalachian State 14
(last appearance: 2006)
16-10, 2 titles (2-0 in title game)

Marshall 8
(last appearance: 1996)
23-6, 2 titles (2-4 in title game)

The Citadel 3
(last appearance: 1990)
1-3 (1-2 in 1st round, 0-1 in quarters)

Samford 2
(last appearance: 1992)
2-2 (1-1 in 1st round, 1-0 in quarters, 0-1 in semifinals)

Wofford 1
(last appearance: 2003)
2-1 (lost in semifinals)

East Tennessee State 1
(last appearance: 1996)
1-1 (lost in quarters)

Chattanooga 1
(last appearance: 1984)
0-1

Western Carolina 1
(last appearance: 1983)
3-1 (0-1 in title games)

Elon N/A


(*5 as an independent, 10 as a member of the SoCon)

Note: The Division I championship has been played 29 times...20 of them have been hosted in a SoCon stadium:

10 Chattanooga, 5 Huntington, 3 Statesboro (granted, they were an independent at the time), 2 Charleston.

[JaxSinfonian]

Let's see.....a coach that won the Heisman trophy or a coach that didn't play college football....hmmmm

Or, to put it another way, a coach who is 0-0 against Jax State or a coach who is 7-0 against Samford.

I don't know if Sullivan's a lousy coach or a savior yet. But it seemed a little odd to me to have touted him so highly as proof of the program's improvement before he'd ever coached a down. A minor case of Sabanitis, one might say.

Nice to see a Samford fan finally check in to this debate, Jiggs. Quite a rabid following you guys have.

[gophoenix]

What no smiley face? We didn't beat CofC or UNCG in football either, but I think you know what I mean.

Pretty impressive stat though xthumbsupx.

It is an impressive stat, and you have to forgive the lack of a smiley...was at work at the time.

[ekufbfan]

I know this EKU fan would love to get out of the OVC !

Why we never pursued/acted upon an invitation from the So Conf is pretty complicated.

In the late 80's and 90's we had President that was bent on heading EKU to the outhouse if he could have managed it. Fortunately we had Coach Kidd who was able to head that off. However, all our athletic teams suffered becauce he had a strangle hold on any money coming into athletics, especially football. (He was fired/asked to resign at Auburn U for the exact reasons....he hated athletics). We have had two more Presidents since then and currently are looking for third to replace the Prez that left in late August. With turn overs like that, it is hard to make something like a conference move happen. I know that a lot of EKU fans hate the OVC, see it as stagnet and suffering from the same growing pains that the So Conf has (i.e. bringing on board former DII schools with little or nothing to offer... UT-Martin, SEMO, and I am sorry if this offends, but IMO that included Samford, yes it is a pretty little private school with a lot of rich kids, but athletically, well, you know the answer there).

I do think that money is an issue at EKU (as it is everywhere unless you are an Ohio State of the FBS world). IF we ever make a move, the powers that be will have to believe it will bring in more money, more fans in the stands and that we can be successful. IMO, getting out of the OVC and playing better competition would go along way in making two of the three a reality. Succcess of course depends on all things we need to do no matter what conference we are in.

Would the SO CO be a good fit? Perhaps, I know it would have been in the late 1990's. Now, I am really not sure with all the changes going on in FCS what would be best, I just know the OVC does not hold much interest for us anymore and just reading on here, I know the OVC has little if any respect.

[zilla]

Any word about the SoCon expanding to 14 teams? Or, did that theory get erased when ETSU announced they would not re-start their football program?

[asufan87]

I sure hope they don't expand to 14. That would almost guarantee a spot for Presbyterian. xrolleyesx

[JaxSinfonian]

I know that a lot of EKU fans hate the OVC, see it as stagnet and suffering from the same growing pains that the So Conf has (i.e. bringing on board former DII schools with little or nothing to offer... UT-Martin, SEMO, and I am sorry if this offends, but IMO that included Samford, yes it is a pretty little private school with a lot of rich kids, but athletically, well, you know the answer there).

Ouch. Do you include Jax State in that group, ekufbfan?

[walliver]

Any word about the SoCon expanding to 14 teams? Or, did that theory get erased when ETSU announced they would not re-start their football program?


I think the a SoCon that large would be very unstable, and would probably split in two.

[gophoenix]

Any word about the SoCon expanding to 14 teams? Or, did that theory get erased when ETSU announced they would not re-start their football program?

From what I understand, it is still there. ESPN printed a story last year with Georgia St and Coastal being the other two later. But who knows. UNCW has the smallest athletics budget in the CAA, so you'd have to think that if they start football that it would dent their budget more with travel costs. Maybe they'd be a target. There's still SC State. Perhaps Kennesaw St. Perhaps Winthrop. Perhaps any number of schools. My guess is that the next two schools are going to be public, no doubt.

[Maroons]

Sounds to me like they tried with EKU. You know you ask 'em out to dinner, ply them with wine, start to give them a kiss, grab their ass, and when they tell you no, you call up the one you are sure will give it to youxnodx

xlolx xlolx

[SoCon48]

This is one of those things that has just been flat beat into the ground. Samford brings a big media market, and a western footprint into Alabama. Furthermore, remember that a conference is not just about football. Samford will come in and be in the upper echelon with their basketball and baseball programs immediately.

Saying Samford brings a media market is like saying Johnson C Smith brings the Charlotte media market to a prospective conference. Just being located in the Birmingham market does not bring the market to the rest of the conf.

[SoCon48]

I think the a SoCon that large would be very unstable, and would probably split in two.

EXACTLY!!!!
Too, it would bring about an inequity in football schedules in a given year.

[SoCon48]

I sure hope they don't expand to 14. That would almost guarantee a spot for Presbyterian. xrolleyesx

And Wingate.xbawlingx xbawlingx

[AppMan]

let you run us out of OUR league? don't think so

Didn't realize you guys owned the SoCon. Who sounds elitist now?

[Death Dealer]

And Wingate.xbawlingx xbawlingx
Wingate has a football team? xeekx Will wonders never cease? xlolx xsmiley_wix

[AppMan]

I also wish we wouldn't think just in terms of football. A well rounded conference means a lot of different things.

App State, while great in football doesn't really produce a championship team in any other sport but track. Don't be so one dimensional with your view of athletics. This is a well rounded conference where every school produces a perennial contender in at least one, often more, sports.

In winning 28 SoCon Commisioner's Cups (23 out of the last 24 years) we must be picking up a few W's here and there.

[AppMan]

I would argue with the term outgrown and suggest it should be ASU and GSU have changed athletic directions. There is a purpose for all conferences and divisions. Some match individual schools and some don't. Because the SoCon might not be a fit for GSU and ASU now or at some time in the future, does not mean more than the purpose of the conferences no longer meets the goals of the the institutions. Outgrown sounds demeaning.

Didn't intend it as demeaning. However, a look at what is going on at ASU vs the direction of the SoCon and you will see what I mean.

When ASU's athletics enhancement campaign is finished, no one in the SoCon will be close to matching ASU's OVERALL athletic facilities. Not an opinion, a fact. New athletics center with coaches & administrative offices & meeting rooms, 10,000 sq ft state-of-the-art weight room and training facilities, press box, Yosef Club room with club level seating , and 18 luxury suites (all but 1 or 2 are sold), concession and restroom facilities for game days. New softball facility, NEW 80 yard indoor practice facility, NEW state-of-the-art field turf 2,000 seat baseball stadium (with indoor hitting & pitching facility and team club house), the nicest basketball arena in the conference, soccer field & tennis courts are only three years old, and a New Field Hockey/Lacross facility on the board.

ASU's football attendance figures are dwarfing everyone else in the league and our basketball & baseball programs are getting better by the year. Basketball has made a long, difficult journey back to respectability and has played in the tournament semi-finals the past three years. Chris Pollard has done a remarakable job of rebuilding the baseball program basically from scratch. The '08 Diamond Apps will be his best team yet. Track & CC have been the best in the conference for a long time. All the credit for the gains being made at ASU is due to our chancellor and director of athletics. Back in the late 70's Pat Dye called ASU a sleeping giant and with the right leadership and support could become something special in athletics. Finally, after 30 years Appalachian has the type of dynamic leadership that realizes what a highly visable and successful athletics program can do for the overall health of the university. ASU is developing a totally different mentality in its approach to athletics from the rest of the SoCon that goes far beyond W's & L's. This is not demeaning to anyone in the league, but the signs are obvious.

I was involved with a conference publication back in the 80's (fact is - patting self on back - I coined the phrase SoCon) and saw a remarkable division in the league. VMI, Davidson, Furman, & The Citadel rulled the conference and opposed almost everything the public schools wanted. It is still that way today. Since 1932 institutions have come into this league, built up their programs and left for what they considered greener pastures. However, the core group of Furman, Davidson, and The Citadel hold steadfast to the past and embraces it. They see the league as "their conference" and have a great desire a return to the "Ivy League of the South" that existed from 1953 until the late 70's. The remake of the league began with the withdrawal of Marshall and admittance of Wofford. Adding Elon and now Samford has brought the conference more inline with days of old. It is a direction that will continue down the same path.

It all begins with the conference commissioneer and the powers that be have just what they want in John Iamarino. Following the tenure of Danny Morrison - by way of Wofford & Elon - Iamarino came to the SoCon via the Northeast Conference. He is just what the Dr (or should I say Furman, Davidson, The Citadel, Wofford, and Elon) ordered. He has continued the remake the SoCon by adding Samford to the fold. Please don't get the wrong impression here. By no means am I bitter or angry about all this. Like I said before, the SoCon is what it is and it is up to ASU to decide what conference or division is the best fit for the university. IMO, the athletic enhancements you see happening at ASU are a clear signal to what direction that will be.

Sorry to be so long.

[ekufbfan]

I am certainly no expert on the So Co, but I can tell you EKU fans have a lot of respect for what App State has done, both on the field (hard to trump a WIN over Michigan in their house, regardless of WHO you are and two straight Nat. Championships!) and the plans for improvement they have in place. I wish EKU had plans in the making like App's! In addition, a beautiful campus and a great place to visit. The ONLY drawback for you guys that I see, it sure is not an easy place to get to, however, it is beautiful if somewhat harrowing drive up the mountain! We always like playing you guys, hope we get you back on our schedule.

[Cap'n Cat]

Send 'em to the OVC. Take Youngstown with ya.

xrolleyesx

[gophoenix]

When ASU's athletics enhancement campaign is finished, no one in the SoCon will be close to matching ASU's OVERALL athletic facilities. Not an opinion, a fact. New athletics center with coaches & administrative offices & meeting rooms, 10,000 sq ft state-of-the-art weight room and training facilities, press box, Yosef Club room with club level seating , and 18 luxury suites (all but 1 or 2 are sold), concession and restroom facilities for game days. New softball facility, NEW 80 yard indoor practice facility, NEW state-of-the-art field turf 2,000 seat baseball stadium (with indoor hitting & pitching facility and team club house), the nicest basketball arena in the conference, soccer field & tennis courts are only three years old, and a New Field Hockey/Lacross facility on the board.


Who is paying for all of this????

And a lacrosse facility? I know Western and Elon were pushing for the conference to sponsor M&W Lacrosse, was App involved with that too?

As for the SoCon adding Samford, if App or GSU didn't want it to happen, then they should have voted against it. App didn't vote for Elon after all, though GSU did. And App was one of the naysayers for Coastal when it came down to it too.

Whatever the direction is, App is going along with it for now. Which is why all this complaining just gets old. Complain to your own admins if you have an issue.

[Saint3333]

Who is paying for all of this????


Half of the $32M comes from students fees with the other half coming from private donations, including multiple $500K - $1M gifts. See overview, projected pics, virtual tour, etc. here: http://www.goasu.com/page/176/

In addition the east stands expansion announcement will come out in December BOT meeting with at least 4K new permanent seats, but I'm hoping for about 8K more. Once the club, boxes, and east side is expanded KBS could have 25K permanent seats. The east stands (with restrooms and concessions) could be ready as early as 2008, which is great news for Elon, Furman, etc. fans.

[Eyes of Old Main]

don't let the door hit you in your diploma mill asses on the way out!

xthumbsupx

[gophoenix]

Half of the $32M comes from students fees with the other half coming from private donations, including multiple $500K - $1M gifts. See overview, projected pics, virtual tour, etc. here: http://www.goasu.com/page/176/

They no doubt look great. I was just wondering if these were taxpayer funded projects or 100% funded privately. Sounds like the latter, which is good. That was one of my big issues with UNC when I worked there, they had facilities that the taxpayers paid for and the taxpayers paid to maintain.

[Eyes of Old Main]

I sure hope they don't expand to 14. That would almost guarantee a spot for Presbyterian. xrolleyesx

I'd rather see Savannah State AND Johnson C. Smith get in than let PC in.

[AppMan]

Half of the $32M comes from students fees with the other half coming from private donations, including multiple $500K - $1M gifts. See overview, projected pics, virtual tour, etc. here: http://www.goasu.com/page/176/

In addition the east stands expansion announcement will come out in December BOT meeting with at least 4K new permanent seats, but I'm hoping for about 8K more. Once the club, boxes, and east side is expanded KBS could have 25K permanent seats. The east stands (with restrooms and concessions) could be ready as early as 2008, which is great news for Elon, Furman, etc. fans.

I am hearing the new seating will be a cantilevered deck with the first row located over the top of the first row of the existing lower level. It will be raised so additional luxury boxes can be added between the levels as needed. Number of seats in the 6-7,000 range. Since Cobb has said he wants KBS to eventually seat 30,000 I'm thinking there might be something up with more seating in the North endzone. Earlier in the year I was in Reno and sent him some pictures of Nevada's stadium that had endzone seating going up and over the track. It looked pretty cool and would get us close to 30,000.

[AppMan]

I am certainly no expert on the So Co, but I can tell you EKU fans have a lot of respect for what App State has done, both on the field (hard to trump a WIN over Michigan in their house, regardless of WHO you are and two straight Nat. Championships!) and the plans for improvement they have in place. I wish EKU had plans in the making like App's! In addition, a beautiful campus and a great place to visit. The ONLY drawback for you guys that I see, it sure is not an easy place to get to, however, it is beautiful if somewhat harrowing drive up the mountain! We always like playing you guys, hope we get you back on our schedule.

Thanks for the kind words. I've enjoyed our trips to Richmond as well. Easy trip to Boone for you guys these days. Hwy 421 is now a 4 lane divided highway and easy 45 minute drive up from I-77. Likewise HWY 321 is now being widened to 4 lanes and a lot of the curves are being taken out. I often wonder how different this conference might look if Alfred White had been commish before Wright "Muddy" Waters took over. I know Mr White wanted you guys and JMU in the league.

[OL FU]

Didn't intend it as demeaning. However, a look at what is going on at ASU vs the direction of the SoCon and you will see what I mean.

When ASU's athletics enhancement campaign is finished, no one in the SoCon will be close to matching ASU's OVERALL athletic facilities. Not an opinion, a fact. New athletics center with coaches & administrative offices & meeting rooms, 10,000 sq ft state-of-the-art weight room and training facilities, press box, Yosef Club room with club level seating , and 18 luxury suites (all but 1 or 2 are sold), concession and restroom facilities for game days. New softball facility, NEW 80 yard indoor practice facility, NEW state-of-the-art field turf 2,000 seat baseball stadium (with indoor hitting & pitching facility and team club house), the nicest basketball arena in the conference, soccer field & tennis courts are only three years old, and a New Field Hockey/Lacross facility on the board.

ASU's football attendance figures are dwarfing everyone else in the league and our basketball & baseball programs are getting better by the year. Basketball has made a long, difficult journey back to respectability and has played in the tournament semi-finals the past three years. Chris Pollard has done a remarakable job of rebuilding the baseball program basically from scratch. The '08 Diamond Apps will be his best team yet. Track & CC have been the best in the conference for a long time. All the credit for the gains being made at ASU is due to our chancellor and director of athletics. Back in the late 70's Pat Dye called ASU a sleeping giant and with the right leadership and support could become something special in athletics. Finally, after 30 years Appalachian has the type of dynamic leadership that realizes what a highly visable and successful athletics program can do for the overall health of the university. ASU is developing a totally different mentality in its approach to athletics from the rest of the SoCon that goes far beyond W's & L's. This is not demeaning to anyone in the league, but the signs are obvious.

I was involved with a conference publication back in the 80's (fact is - patting self on back - I coined the phrase SoCon) and saw a remarkable division in the league. VMI, Davidson, Furman, & The Citadel rulled the conference and opposed almost everything the public schools wanted. It is still that way today. Since 1932 institutions have come into this league, built up their programs and left for what they considered greener pastures. However, the core group of Furman, Davidson, and The Citadel hold steadfast to the past and embraces it. They see the league as "their conference" and have a great desire a return to the "Ivy League of the South" that existed from 1953 until the late 70's. The remake of the league began with the withdrawal of Marshall and admittance of Wofford. Adding Elon and now Samford has brought the conference more inline with days of old. It is a direction that will continue down the same path.

It all begins with the conference commissioneer and the powers that be have just what they want in John Iamarino. Following the tenure of Danny Morrison - by way of Wofford & Elon - Iamarino came to the SoCon via the Northeast Conference. He is just what the Dr (or should I say Furman, Davidson, The Citadel, Wofford, and Elon) ordered. He has continued the remake the SoCon by adding Samford to the fold. Please don't get the wrong impression here. By no means am I bitter or angry about all this. Like I said before, the SoCon is what it is and it is up to ASU to decide what conference or division is the best fit for the university. IMO, the athletic enhancements you see happening at ASU are a clear signal to what direction that will be.

Sorry to be so long.


Nice post. I really can't argue with you. You seem to know of which you speak. However, we have admitted non-Ivy league types so are we really trying to recreate the conference in that manner or maintain the balance. Maybe we trying to recreate the conference and can't because the larger schools won't let us. I really don't know

[asufan87]

I'd rather see Savannah State AND Johnson C. Smith get in than let PC in.

Don't know why you would be opposed to Presbyterian since they'e almost a mirror image of you guys. I figured you guys would be huge advocates for a future Socon with PC included.

[PaladinFan]

Don't know why you would be opposed to Presbyterian since they'e almost a mirror image of you guys. I figured you guys would be huge advocates for a future Socon with PC included.

I really don't think the SoCon private schools have some hidden agenda to let in just like minded schools. If the conference wants to expand and PC is the best available option, then look into it.

[appfan2008]

I wish we had added a much better football program and samford sure as heck aint that

[gophoenix]

I really don't think the SoCon private schools have some hidden agenda to let in just like minded schools. If the conference wants to expand and PC is the best available option, then look into it.

Ditto, though some other fans would really make it seem otherwise.


I wish we had added a much better football program and samford sure as heck aint that

Samford has a more storied I-AA program than 4 SoCon members. And comments like this are crap too. You people will always find something to complain about. Right now, it is football. But if they were good in football but basketball lagged, then it would be about basketball. If that lagged, then it would be about baseball. If that was fine, then it would be facilities. If that was fine it would be attendance. And if that was fine it would be about how many people travel to your game from Birmingham. And if that was fine, it would be something else their media coverage, the size of their airport, how hard it is to get there, their buildings are made our of red brick, they're a christian school.

That's the ultimate issue. It's all about image with some of you people. It's not about level of play, academics, graduating, running a clean program, facilities, fans traveling, numbered of sponsored sports, number of wins, money, etc. It is all about some fantasy image you think you have. And about how you think the rest of us hurt this image.

Truths:
Bigger isn't better
Money doesn't mean wins
Private vs public means nothing
Number of fans doesn't equate to wins
Running a clean program is always better than sanctions
Facilities mean nothing outside of some recruiting
Size of a school doesn't mean better programs

[proasu89]

Truths:
Bigger isn't better In most cases, regarding athletics, bigger is better
Money doesn't mean wins Sure doesn't hurt
Private vs public means nothing In the SoCon no it doesn't
Number of fans doesn't equate to wins Correct, but you can't argue that wins = fans
Running a clean program is always better than sanctions Always
Facilities mean nothing outside of some recruiting Better facilities also ='s better training and conditioning which ='s wins. Better coaches are more attracted to a school with better facilities.
Size of a school doesn't mean better programs[/QUOTE] Wofford and Furman

[AppMan]

However, we have admitted non-Ivy league types so are we really trying to recreate the conference in that manner or maintain the balance. Maybe we trying to recreate the conference and can't because the larger schools won't let us. I really don't know

In 2000 the league had 7 public institutions (I know The Citadel is actually a public school) and 5 privates. The thought was Elon's admittance would almost bring the league into balance, but VMI's departure messed that up. IMO, when ETSU was booted out the addition of Samford became the league's #1 priority. As the UTC folks have clearly stated, it had nothing to do with appeasing the Mocs into staying. The trend towards private institutions, as three have been admitted even with the loss of a public school, seems obvious. I've long maintained there is far too much diversity within the SoCon. There are 1100 student schools and 16,000 student schools trying to find some common ground. That is a tall order to accomplish. Contrary to popular belief I do not have a problem with private schools, fact is I admire them. I simply believe there are far too many differences in the wants and needs - at this level - to make for a cohesive alliance. I believe the entire conference needs an extreme makeover. First and foremost, get rid of the schools who do not play football. IMO, Davidson, CofC, and UNCG should be made to ante up or find another home.

[Appdad]

There are 1100 student schools and 16,000 student schools trying to find some common ground. That is a tall order to accomplish.

That is very true. I will say this though that if Lembo stays at Elon they will be more than competitive in football. That being said I don't understand how the Socan can accept the small football facilities at Samford.

Their football stadium rivals (almost) Mercer's old Porter Gym for basketball.

[terrierbob]

Why can't we just all get along?xlolx

[bigred]

Go Phoenix, call me when the shuttle lands brother. VMI wanted to leave for football only and the SOCON said no. VMI could have made the decision to stay in, but they made a choice (IMO a bad one) to depart from our traditional home. Had this never happened the fightin' Christians would probably still be in the Big South.

[WVAPPmountaineer]

Regarding Elon and the SoCon - Look, I am a true APP fan and have been since our daughter was accepted there in 1998 but as an OLD Elon grad I must say I thought Elon was a perfect addition to the SoCon. Remember the old days of the Carolinas Conference when Elon was there with APP and Western? - Elon has a football tradition and a good one - Back to back National Championships in the early 80s when they were clearly a dominant team in the country in their classification - they went through some tough times when they moved to the NCAA and then up to D-1 with no conference alliances, etc. Lembo seems to be the perfect coach to get Elon back in good football graces (as this season has shown) - As for Samford, I just don't know enough to make an argument - Personally I would have liked to see the SoCon go back into VA and try to entice someone like JMU for the last addition - Living in the Piedmont I can say that Elon in the SoCon has helped bring attention in this area to the conference and especially APP - Before that time one could barely find an article much less a writer actually attending a SoCon game

[OL FU]

Why can't we just all get along?xlolx

It ain't funxcoolx

[JDC325]

I think the problem here is not so much the type of school that is in the conference but the type of conference. I think the truth of the matter is that many ASU and GSU fans want to be I-A. And if that is so then fine, I have no problem with that. But I think the appropriate approach those fans should take is to lobby the admins to move up, not to complain about the composition of the conference. The conference had small privates when you joined. xtwocentsx

HAD SOME private schools...and we also had Marshall. The trend is not favorable for teams like ASU and GSU to keep growing like we have especially the last ten years. Win or lose playing schools with no real football history and 5000 in the stands is not helping the conference or the growing schools like ASU and GSU period. Adding Samford was taking a huge step back athletically for the conference.

[OL FU]

HAD SOME private schools...and we also had Marshall. The trend is not favorable for teams like ASU and GSU to keep growing like we have especially the last ten years. Win or lose playing schools with no real football history and 5000 in the stands is not helping the conference or the growing schools like ASU and GSU period. Adding Samford was taking a huge step back athletically for the conference.

That number varied over the years and I don't have time to see what an average mix would be. Remember with the last influx of large schools two small schools left ( and I think VMI considered leaving also but stayed because of the Citadel) which skewed the average Maybe GSU didn't do its due diligence work when it joined. Maybe the conference lied to GSU. But I imagine the balance between large and small was discussed prior to entrance and if it wasn't then shame on who ever forgot to discuss it. But the point is the same. The conference has always been a mix. I will say in a different way what I said before, if GSU doesn't like the mix it is GSU's issue not the conference ( and that is said with no dis-respect to GSU)

[CID1990]

HAD SOME private schools...and we also had Marshall. The trend is not favorable for teams like ASU and GSU to keep growing like we have especially the last ten years. Win or lose playing schools with no real football history and 5000 in the stands is not helping the conference or the growing schools like ASU and GSU period. Adding Samford was taking a huge step back athletically for the conference.

It seems that factors in Statesboro are much more responsible for GSU's lack of growth over the last couple years than the presence of smaller schools in the SoCon.

Marshall grew and developed nicely in the SoCon, and the conference make-up wasn't all that different from today. The reason Marshall grew, developed and ultimately moved up is because they had a "let's get better and put ourselves in a position to get back into I-A" attitude, instead of a cop out "the rest of the conference is dragging us down" attitude.

Win football games and then move up and out. If ASU and GSU want to grow, then that must mean that they want to go FBS, right? Because by my reckoning, ASU has two back-to-back FCS NC's, and GSU has 6 overall. I don't see how "growing" when referring to those two programs can mean anything other than going to FBS, because in spite of all the little schools holding you guys down, the SoCon is very competitive within FCS, if not traditionally the best FCS conference, and that is not just because of the presence of ASU and GSU.

[gophoenix]

Go Phoenix, call me when the shuttle lands brother. VMI wanted to leave for football only and the SOCON said no. VMI could have made the decision to stay in, but they made a choice (IMO a bad one) to depart from our traditional home. Had this never happened the fightin' Christians would probably still be in the Big South.

Bad decision or not, it happened because the SoCon wouldn't allow you to play football elsewhere.

How about this, don't knock the school willing to put forth a full effort in football while your school wanted to take the easy way out.

[gophoenix]

It seems that factors in Statesboro are much more responsible for GSU's lack of growth over the last couple years than the presence of smaller schools in the SoCon.

Marshall grew and developed nicely in the SoCon, and the conference make-up wasn't all that different from today. The reason Marshall grew, developed and ultimately moved up is because they had a "let's get better and put ourselves in a position to get back into I-A" attitude, instead of a cop out "the rest of the conference is dragging us down" attitude.

Win football games and then move up and out. If ASU and GSU want to grow, then that must mean that they want to go FBS, right? Because by my reckoning, ASU has two back-to-back FCS NC's, and GSU has 6 overall. I don't see how "growing" when referring to those two programs can mean anything other than going to FBS, because in spite of all the little schools holding you guys down, the SoCon is very competitive within FCS, if not traditionally the best FCS conference, and that is not just because of the presence of ASU and GSU.

The talk like MR GSU you responded to is just a bunch of whining. There's always some excuse. Ask Florida State and there 70,000 fans how Wake and their 15,000 or Duke and their 15,000 or less hurt them.

Wanting the best for you schools and teams is one thing, but to make yourself feel better by being some loud mouthed bully hiding behind a computer screen for 10 years is just pathetic.

[The Moody1]

The talk like MR GSU you responded to is just a bunch of whining. There's always some excuse. Ask Florida State and there 70,000 fans how Wake and their 15,000 or Duke and their 15,000 or less hurt them.

Wanting the best for you schools and teams is one thing, but to make yourself feel better by being some loud mouthed bully hiding behind a computer screen for 10 years is just pathetic.


FYI- Wake is averaging 32k in attendance this year. Duke is averaging a little over 20k.

[gophoenix]

FYI- Wake is averaging 32k in attendance this year. Duke is averaging a little over 20k.

UNC/Duke/Wake is to FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/VT in attendance what Elon/Wofford/WCU is to GSU and App.

[walliver]

UNC/Duke/Wake is to FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/VT in attendance what Elon/Wofford/WCU is to GSU and App.

I'm offended by being grouped with UNC and Duke on a football forum.xnonox

[terrierbob]

OK. I've had a few. Regardless of GPAs and SATs, all of you now sound (to my fevered brain) like football policy wonks. Well-structured, cogent arguments, complex sentence structure, fine tooth analysis.... I'm going to bed.

[bigred]

Bad decision or not, it happened because the SoCon wouldn't allow you to play football elsewhere.

How about this, don't knock the school willing to put forth a full effort in football while your school wanted to take the easy way out.

Believe me...if there has ever been an easy way out, it would be to go to Elon. xthumbsupx

[bobbythekidd]

Bad decision or not, it happened because the SoCon wouldn't allow you to play football elsewhere.

How about this, don't knock the school willing to put forth a full effort in football while your school wanted to take the easy way out.
Doesn't Davidson play football in the PFL even though they are a SoCon school?

[OL FU]

Doesn't Davidson play football in the PFL even though they are a SoCon school?

Yes, and I think Davidson left in the early 90's which is not a good reason but apparently the view of the conference were different back then. However, I recall that they left the conference for a short time and then was re-invited.


They are also good a basketballxnodx

[walliver]

Yes, and I think Davidson left in the early 90's which is not a good reason but apparently the view of the conference were different back then. However, I recall that they left the conference for a short time and then was re-invited.


They are also good a basketballxnodx

I think they raised the GPA of the Big South for two years and then came back. They were allowed back in because they had a football team, which the SoCon then required. I don't know why VMI wasn't allowed the same courtesy, especially since the conference rules had been changed allowing non-football schools.

Of course, I never bought VMI's argument that they were stepping down a level temporarily in order to rebuild their program. It obviously hasn't worked. The old SoCon VMI could have beaten Presbyterian. Maybe they thought they couldn't compete against ASU and GSU and were going to lay low in the Big South until the large state schools left for FBS?

I had heard that there was some interest in inviting them back after ETSU left, but I don't know how far along that got.

[chattanoogamocs]

Yes, and I think Davidson left in the early 90's which is not a good reason but apparently the view of the conference were different back then. However, I recall that they left the conference for a short time and then was re-invited.


They are also good a basketballxnodx


At the time Davidson was re-admitted, they were the only SoCon school not playing SoCon football...the SoCon had a full compliment of teams, so it did not seem to be an issue.

Davidson football has always been a bit of an enigma in the SoCon.

For this discussion, I will start in 1969...the year Davidson won its only SoCon football championship (they tied at 5-1 with Richmond).

From 1970-1973 they played the full compliment of SoCon games (though if you look back into the early 60's and back, the SoCon seemed more of a loose confederation of football because very few played a full schedule...some schools played 3 or 4 SoCon games...some played 5...some played 6 or 7).

In 1974 and 1975, Davidson only played 3 SoCon games.

Then, for 7 seasons, they quit playing SoCon games altogether (1976-1982). During this time, I am not sure if they had joined another league or if they just played as an independent.

They reappeared for SoCon football, playing a full or nearly full line-up, from 1983 to 1986 (playing at least 5 SoCon games each season).

In 1987 they finally quit SoCon football all together and from 1989-1992 they left the SoCon for all sports (playing independent for 2 seasons and Big South for 2 more).

They returned to the SoCon for all (other) sports in 1993.

[Zoo]

The SOCON added Samford so all teams can get an easy conference win.

[AppMan]

Remember the old days of the Carolinas Conference when Elon was there with APP and Western?

That is the rub for most ASU fans, which admittedly is aimed at our previous 3 administrations fpr letting ASU flounder for the past 25 years. We left the Carolinas Conference behind in the late 60's and and were on a fast track up, but those former administrations stalled any progress by the department of athletics and left us stagnant while some of our peers (most noteably ECU & Marshall) left us behind.



Living in the Piedmont I can say that Elon in the SoCon has helped bring attention in this area to the conference and especially APP - Before that time one could barely find an article much less a writer actually attending a SoCon game

ASU winning back to back national championships and beating Michigan has had far more to do with the increased publicity than simply playing Elon. I lived in the WS area 20 years and the vast majority of ink on the SoCon from the Greensboro News & Record are game day articles.

[gophoenix]

ASU winning back to back national championships and beating Michigan has had far more to do with the increased publicity than simply playing Elon. I lived in the WS area 20 years and the vast majority of ink on the SoCon from the Greensboro News & Record are game day articles.

Blah blah blah. AppMan must say, so that's the way it is. xcoffeex Same old stuff, new thread.

How about I reverse that logic. Elon fans were pissed for 30 years because our true peers for the 30 years prior (like ECU, Western and App) moved up to where we should have been? Same logic applies. We were your peers for longer than Marshall was.

And considering there is almost a weekly article in the News & Record devoted solely to Elon pregame and local players from Elon shows you don't read the News & Record much. Heck, we even get focus articles in the App paper, the Winston-Salem Journal.

[woffordgrad94]

Speaking on the Davidson situation, I just don't understand it. To me, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. VMI wasn't allowed to stay in the conference except for football, and neither was East Tennessee when they discontinued football. But Davidson is allowed to do exactly what those other two schools were not. It seems somewhat unfair and hypocritical. And don't give me any of that "well, their basketball team is good for the SoCon" crap. I don't buy it, and I don't think something like that should make any difference. The main reason they are good at basketball is because they budget it heavy and they can do that because they get away with not playing scholorship football, yet still being in the SoCon. If Davidson is going to stay in the conference, they should have to play football in it, and if they still choose to spend all their money on basketball and ignore football and have their asses handed to them on a weekly basis in the fall, so be it.

And getting back to ETSU, I still don't understand why they were kicked out. That is some more hypocrisy. College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro are in the conference, and they've never had football at all. If they can do it, why can't ETSU?

[gophoenix]

And getting back to ETSU, I still don't understand why they were kicked out. That is some more hypocrisy. College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro are in the conference, and they've never had football at all. If they can do it, why can't ETSU?

While I agree with you on Davidson, play football here or leave... let's go back over ETSU one more time.

#1 - They were one of the major opponents of the VMI waiver.
#2 - They dropped football without even telling conference members this was even on the table
#3 - Conference members and the conference found out about it through the media
#4 - I can't find the source, but it was the JC newspaper, but ETSU apparently faxed confirmation of this to the conference offices, didn't even bother with a call.

It was basically ETSU doing all this and keeping everyone else in the dark. Really bad for business when you are so tied to other schools like you are in a conference.

So when waiver vote time came, UNCG and CoC abstained because they saw it as a football issue. This is typical. App, UTC, Western and Elon were in favor while the others (with GSU and Furman being major opponents) were against it.

Overall, ETSU's admins dicked the conference and members over and blind sided everyone with this.

That's ultimately why.

As far as the conference goes. I say to the basketball schools, play football or get out. Davidson, play in the conference or get out.

And for the record, when Davidson left the SoCon they went to the Patriot League for a while and then ended up in the Big South back when UMBC, Campbell and Towson were also Big South schools.

[woffordgrad94]

Yep, I can see why everyone was mad at ETSU now. I think at the time they wanted VMI football to stay in the SoCon because that's about the only in-conference team they could beat! :)

[Eyes of Old Main]

I though Davidson was kicked out when they left. But maybe that's be being a revolutionary again and wishing we could boot Davidson, Charleston and Greensboro. It's very easy, PLAY FOOTBALL OR GET OUT. If Wofford can afford to play, then any of those schools can too.

[chattanoogamocs]

I guess I am in the minority that doesn't care that UNCG, CofC and Davidson are in the conference with no football.

I guess maybe is it because Chattanooga is known more for basketball and these schools make the SoCon a better basketball league.

(Being a fan of both, I also enjoy all the football fans claiming the SoCon caters to basketball...and only the basketball only fans claim the SoCon caters to FCS football...but that is another debate for another day :))

I especially don't have a problem with Davidson because they had de-emphasised their football program decades ago. They are one of the older members of the conference, I pay my respect to them to have them here schollie football or not.

BTW...I am pretty sure that Davidson wasn't kicked out...they left on their own accord due to bad decisions by the leadership at DC (trying to do sports on the cheap)...it only took a couple of years for them to realize their mistake...and with their past history with the SoCon, they were re-admitted. (I will ask the DC fans what exactly happened on their board and will post the answer here).

[gophoenix]

I guess I am in the minority that doesn't care that UNCG, CofC and Davidson are in the conference with no football.

Nah, ask me again in a few months and I won't care either.

Really, I don't mind UNCG and CofC. Davidson does bother me because they do have football.

[CID1990]

The SOCON added Samford so all teams can get an easy conference win.

If that's all we were looking for, then we could just tell CofC and UNCG to get football or get out. They can take Davidson with them.

[Eyes of Old Main]

I'm all for SoCon basketball too. I just think you are in or you are out. I'd rather have weaker basketball as a whole with a group of teams that are committed, than have a few stronger teams that aren't totally committed.

Besides, why do you think they are better in basketball? Because they aren't having to support football too. Any school can devote more time and resources to create a successful basketball program if they don't have to worry with football.

[lizrdgizrd]

Count me as one of the folks who think you either play football in the SoCon or you don't play football at all. I've got no gripes with CofC and UNCG not playing football at all but Davidson needs to step up or get out. xnodx

[mountaineertider]

Davidson can stay in the SoCon under one condition....

they let App have Stephen Curry until he goes to the NBA.

[AppMan]

Blah blah blah. AppMan must say, so that's the way it is. xcoffeex Same old stuff, new thread.

How about I reverse that logic. Elon fans were pissed for 30 years because our true peers for the 30 years prior (like ECU, Western and App) moved up to where we should have been? Same logic applies. We were your peers for longer than Marshall was.

And considering there is almost a weekly article in the News & Record devoted solely to Elon pregame and local players from Elon shows you don't read the News & Record much. Heck, we even get focus articles in the App paper, the Winston-Salem Journal.

If you would take the time to actually read my post you wouldn't make such foolish statements. I said I LIVED in WS almost 20 years. LIVED is the past tense of LIVE, so it must mean I don't live there any longer. Since I don't live there any longer it makes it hard to read the Greensboro News, but since you say there is "almost a weekly article" in the News & Record about Elon I've bookmarked the paper and will check each day from here on out to see for myself. But just to check you out I did a little search of the News & Record . It shows a grand total of 10 articles on Elon Football from 8-30 through 10-18. That's 7 weeks and 7 game articles, leaving 3 additional stories (one of which 1 was about the ASU game being a sellout - even though according to Elon fans ASU had nothing to do with the sellout), so Elon has received TWO additional articles about their storied program in 7 weeks. Although I'm not a math major I can figure out that's not exactly "almost one per week."

BTW, your reverse logic is illogical. Had ASU been fortunate enough to have our current leadership over the past 35 years we would be nowhere in sight of the SoCon, or Elon, today.

[gophoenix]

If you would take the time to actually read my post you wouldn't make such foolish statements. I said I LIVED in WS almost 20 years. LIVED is the past tense of LIVE, so it must mean I don't live there any longer. Since I don't live there any longer it makes it hard to read the Greensboro News, but since you say there is "almost a weekly article" in the News & Record about Elon I've bookmarked the paper and will check each day from here on out to see for myself. But just to check you out I did a little search of the News & Record . It shows a grand total of 10 articles on Elon Football from 8-30 through 10-18. That's 7 weeks and 7 game articles, leaving 3 additional stories (one of which 1 was about the ASU game being a sellout - even though according to Elon fans ASU had nothing to do with the sellout), so Elon has received TWO additional articles about their storied program in 7 weeks. Although I'm not a math major I can figure out that's not exactly "almost one per week."

BTW, your reverse logic is illogical. Had ASU been fortunate enough to have our current leadership over the past 35 years we would be nowhere in sight of the SoCon, or Elon, today.

It's also foolish to make assumptions about a newspaper in an area you don't currently live if you do not check for content daily, yet comment on the content. Bookmark that paper as you will, the entire print edition is not available on the website.

My logic is nowhere illogical in theirs. The exact argument you use for everything about App State can be applied to any school that you shared the conference with for 30 years; whether Elon, Catawba, Guilford, Western or ECU.

Let me fix that last comment for you:
BTW, your reverse logic is illogical. Had Elon been fortunate enough to have our current leadership over the past 35 years we would be nowhere in sight of the SoCon, or App, today.

See how easy it is. And it makes just as much sense as anything you say.

And BigApp, why do you frequent the I-AA board when all you do is dump on it and the members?