SWAC wanting to go FBS as a whole conference

[bonarae]

What do you think of this? It's part of their 10-15 year strategic plan.

https://twitter.com/DomMirandaTV/status/1550139213877837827?t=h91EW9x6yNvd1upFnrFaPg&s=04

[Laker]

Well, things could be different in 15 years. As a league, they aren't ready for it now. Jackson State has put them in the spotlight now because of Coach Sanders, not because of their win total.

[MR. CHICKEN]

....WHAA SWAC/MEAC.....DON'T BODE WELL.......WEALTH UH SKILL PLAYERS.......NO GOOD LINE PLAY....WHIFF FEW EXCEPTIONS......6' 1" 335 POUNDERS.....WHIFF LOVE HANDLES....LIKE SADDLE BAGS..........BRAWK!

[Panther88]

....WHAA SWAC/MEAC.....DON'T BODE WELL.......WEALTH UH SKILL PLAYERS.......NO GOOD LINE PLAY....WHIFF FEW EXCEPTIONS......6' 1" 335 POUNDERS.....WHIFF LOVE HANDLES....LIKE SADDLE BAGS..........BRAWK!

Truth. Traditional OLs and even DLs in the SWAC are/were horrrrrible!!!

Oddly, that's where games are lost and won.

[Panther88]

What do you think of this? It's part of their 10-15 year strategic plan.

https://twitter.com/DomMirandaTV/status/1550139213877837827?t=h91EW9x6yNvd1upFnrFaPg&s=04

Athletic budgets, facilities, campus population, investment potential, market interest, location, ... possible to achieve for the upper 30-40% of the current SWAC.

[Libertine]

Is Deion still going to be in the SWAC in 10-15 years?

[caribbeanhen]

Is Deion still going to be in the SWAC in 10-15 years?

Will Deion even be alive in 10 years ? He didn’t look well last year on that sideline scooter

[Professor Chaos]

I don't see how these SWAC athletic departments, many funded at the bottom of D1, could compete at the FBS level. It'll be incredibly difficult to get a cut of the CFP money for a new conference and, without that, where is the money going to come from? Seems like a pipe dream to me but the bar for an FBS athletic budget is getting lower all the time so who knows what that will look like in 10-15 years.

[nevadagriz]

Being HBCUs will help ESPN will do a TV contract if they moved up. I think that Sanders has gave some much needed attention to the SWAC however still think he has not proven himself as a coach.
The quality of play would really have to improve to compete in the FBS, I personally don't think the teams in Swac or MEAC could compete in Big Sky , MVFC, or CAA.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I think it's a great idea. I think they should have done it years ago. The HBCU traditional mission is better served in the larger classification. In the smaller classification, with scholly limits, they're underserving their traditional constituency. Going 1-A, they can recruit more atheletes, they can raise more money. I think it's a fantastic idea. If they get the right marketer and pursue the right corporate sponsorship, this is a no-brainer...

[JSUSoutherner]

They won't play in the playoffs, so if the money is there they may as well.

[katss07]

Being HBCUs will help ESPN will do a TV contract if they moved up. I think that Sanders has gave some much needed attention to the SWAC however still think he has not proven himself as a coach.
The quality of play would really have to improve to compete in the FBS, I personally don't think the teams in Swac or MEAC could compete in Big Sky , MVFC, or CAA.
The SWAC couldn’t compete in the MEAC

[NY Crusader 2010]

Actually sounds like a decent idea. Take it with a grain of salt, however. How did Florida A&M's FBS move work out? How long did it take their program to recover?

Just a reminder that HBCU => FBS isn't a new idea. Been tried once. And it failed. If FAMU couldn't cut it, can Mississippi Valley, Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Texas Southern make it in FBS. I have serious doubts.

From an individual program perspective, Jackson State right now absolutely could make FBS happen IMO, and possibly NC A&T.

[Panther88]

Being HBCUs will help ESPN will do a TV contract if they moved up. I think that Sanders has gave some much needed attention to the SWAC however still think he has not proven himself as a coach.
The quality of play would really have to improve to compete in the FBS, I personally don't think the teams in Swac or MEAC could compete in Big Sky , MVFC, or CAA.

I think the upper echelon of the SWAC could hold their own vs the contra-conferences.

W-Ls appear not to be a factor at the fbs level, gauging too many who graduated from then i-aa to i-a.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Actually sounds like a decent idea. Take it with a grain of salt, however. How did Florida A&M's FBS move work out? How long did it take their program to recover?

Just a reminder that HBCU => FBS isn't a new idea. Been tried once. And it failed. If FAMU couldn't cut it, can Mississippi Valley, Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Texas Southern make it in FBS. I have serious doubts.

From an individual program perspective, Jackson State right now absolutely could make FBS happen IMO, and possibly NC A&T.

FAMU tired it as an individual school, which meant they'd have to go the independent route and be the cupcake of the week.

If the entire SWAC moves up, they continue withe business as usual, except that they can sign more kids with more schollies, and Title IX means they'd have to sign more female athletes too....Their travel would remain the same, they'd just have find more corporate sponsorship and do more with the NIL thing, which opens up all sorts of sponsorship opportunities.. Looking at what FAMU did vs what the whole conference could do is an Apples to Oranges comparison, particularly in the modern era of diversity.

[NY Crusader 2010]

FAMU tired it as an individual school, which meant they'd have to go the independent route and be the cupcake of the week.

If the entire SWAC moves up, they continue withe business as usual, except that they can sign more kids with more schollies, and Title IX means they'd have to sign more female athletes too....Their travel would remain the same, they'd just have find more corporate sponsorship and do more with the NIL thing, which opens up all sorts of sponsorship opportunities.. Looking at what FAMU did vs what the whole conference could do is an Apples to Oranges comparison, particularly in the modern era of diversity.

What your describing is essentially the entire SWAC moving trivially up to FBS. Sure the whole league could move up together (if TPTB allowed that) and majority of schools would meet or come close to the ferkakta "attendance requirements". But I don't see the league as a whole being able to raise its level of play on the field to becoming equal with the current G5. As far as level of play is concerned, the HBCU leagues are MUCH closer to DII than they are to FBS. Sure, they'll get better recruits on average than they get now, because they're FBS, but that doesn't mean they'll be competitive at that level. The MEAC and SWAC are FCS now and they're top teams are nowhere near the top of our division. See FCS playoff results since 1999 if you need a measuring stick.

[Libertine]

I think it's a great idea. I think they should have done it years ago. The HBCU traditional mission is better served in the larger classification. In the smaller classification, with scholly limits, they're underserving their traditional constituency. Going 1-A, they can recruit more atheletes, they can raise more money. I think it's a fantastic idea. If they get the right marketer and pursue the right corporate sponsorship, this is a no-brainer...

I agree but, unfortunately, I think that "years ago" was specifically 1978 when D1 split into I-A/I-AA. By taking the cost containment option 44 years ago, the SWAC -- one of only two HBCU D1 conferences and easily the better managed one -- basically locked themselves long-term into a model that probably less suits their overall mission.

[NY Crusader 2010]

During the 1978 split, was the SWAC reasoning for dropping to I-AA similar to the Ivies? If I'm not mistaken, there were 3 or 4 Ivies at the time that would've met the I-A attendance and stadium size requirements but the rest of the league was nowhere close. I imagine a good chunk of the SWAC teams would've been eligible to remain I-A. Guessing they didn't want to leave their counterparts behind?

[caribbeanhen]

They will never get all the schools in the SWAC to agree on this but could sell the idea to some other schools looking to get into FBS.... by the way, FBS is not getting any better with all of this ... only more blah

[ElCid]

They will never get all the schools in the SWAC to agree on this but could sell the idea to some other schools looking to get into FBS.... by the way, FBS is not getting any better with all of this ... only more blah

There are a chunk of schools right now that have little business being FBS. I suppose it all depends on what one's perspective is on that. But from big picture view on fan support/attendence, school resources, and admitted, subjective, relevance, I could probably name 20-30 that are simply wannabes who reside there to fulfill some delusion or fantasy while they scratch at the crumbs thrown to them.

[FormerPokeCenter]

What your describing is essentially the entire SWAC moving trivially up to FBS. Sure the whole league could move up together (if TPTB allowed that) and majority of schools would meet or come close to the ferkakta "attendance requirements". But I don't see the league as a whole being able to raise its level of play on the field to becoming equal with the current G5. As far as level of play is concerned, the HBCU leagues are MUCH closer to DII than they are to FBS. Sure, they'll get better recruits on average than they get now, because they're FBS, but that doesn't mean they'll be competitive at that level. The MEAC and SWAC are FCS now and they're top teams are nowhere near the top of our division. See FCS playoff results since 1999 if you need a measuring stick.

What's the G5 got to do with anything? The SWAC's pretty full. They play a very limited OOC schedule. For them, moving up is really a no brainer. The ONLY thing that really changes is that they can recruit more kids. Again, for them it would be business as usual, with the caveat that the move would allow them to more fully fill their original mission by recruiting more athletes across the board. HBCU's aren't going to abandon classic games, nor should they. The only thing that might change is that - in theory - they could qualify for additional bowl games if they're not in a post season classic.

The SWAC's currently an FCS conference in name only.

[FormerPokeCenter]

The SWAC couldn’t compete in the MEAC

Except that the best part of the MEAC, historically, is currently playing in the SWAC.

[FUBeAR]

What's the G5 got to do with anything? The SWAC's pretty full. They play a very limited OOC schedule. For them, moving up is really a no brainer. The ONLY thing that really changes is that they can recruit more kids. Again, for them it would be business as usual, with the caveat that the move would allow them to more fully fill their original mission by recruiting more athletes across the board. HBCU's aren't going to abandon classic games, nor should they. The only thing that might change is that - in theory - they could qualify for additional bowl games if they're not in a post season classic.

The SWAC's currently an FCS conference in name only.You’re correct.

FUBeAR previously commented, regarding FAMU’s self-hype to get a Playoff bid last year, which included terms such as historical equity and access; that FAMU would receive an at-large bid (they did) and that this effort would be extended in future seasons to gain FCS HBCU’s access to existing FBS Post-Season Bowl Games. Moving to FBS (assuming it still exists) is a better, lower-friction way to accomplish this.

As you said, it’s really a “no-brainer.” FUBeAR would expect it to happen sooner rather than later, once ESPN expresses/guarantees their support for the move…and would expect the MEAC to follow suit. Also, will be interesting to see how this sort of move might impact, NC A&T, TennSt, and their current, respective FCS Conferences.

[NY Crusader 2010]

What's the G5 got to do with anything? The SWAC's pretty full. They play a very limited OOC schedule. For them, moving up is really a no brainer. The ONLY thing that really changes is that they can recruit more kids. Again, for them it would be business as usual, with the caveat that the move would allow them to more fully fill their original mission by recruiting more athletes across the board. HBCU's aren't going to abandon classic games, nor should they. The only thing that might change is that - in theory - they could qualify for additional bowl games if they're not in a post season classic.

The SWAC's currently an FCS conference in name only.

My point is essentially, yes, the SWAC could/arguably should be FBS based on attendance figures. But as far as quality of play on the field, they are nowhere near even the bottom of FBS. You're saying that moving to FBS would give these schools the opportunity to compete in bowl games....which would be against the G5. They would not be competitive.

And to your last point, you're right SWAC is FCS in name only. They're in an awkward spot where support and attendance are FBS-level but funding and quality of play are DII-level.

One point: if TPTB allowed the SWAC to move up as a conference and re-classify to FBS, wouldn't you have to allow the MVFC the same opportunity? Maybe they don't hit the attendance req. right now but I guarantee if you gave that group of schools the ultimatum: Average 15K for 2 straight seasons and your conference gets to move up, they could do it.

[POD Knows]

What's the G5 got to do with anything? The SWAC's pretty full. They play a very limited OOC schedule. For them, moving up is really a no brainer. The ONLY thing that really changes is that they can recruit more kids. Again, for them it would be business as usual, with the caveat that the move would allow them to more fully fill their original mission by recruiting more athletes across the board. HBCU's aren't going to abandon classic games, nor should they. The only thing that might change is that - in theory - they could qualify for additional bowl games if they're not in a post season classic.

The SWAC's currently an FCS conference in name only.Yea, they are D2 at best

[ElCid]

Looking at the bright side if they do move, even with more scholarships, they would afford FCS teams an even better chance at FBS scalps each year. If they played any that are half way decent that is. I've not been impressed with their quality of play for a long time. Seemed to drop off a lot the last 30+ years. Yes there have been good teams here and there, but I'm talking overall.

[FormerPokeCenter]

They would not be competitive.

Well, if competitiveness is the benchmark, we probably need to thin the bowl eligible herd...
Pinstripe Bowl - Maryland 54, Virginia Tech 10
LendingTree Bowl - Liberty 56, Eastern Michigan 20
Gator Bowl - No. 17 Wake Forest 38, Rutgers 10
Quick Lane Bowl - Western Michigan 52, Nevada 24
Camellia Bowl - Georgia State 51, Ball State 20:

[POD Knows]

Well, if competitiveness is the benchmark, we probably need to thin the bowl eligible herd...
Pinstripe Bowl - Maryland 54, Virginia Tech 10
LendingTree Bowl - Liberty 56, Eastern Michigan 20
Gator Bowl - No. 17 Wake Forest 38, Rutgers 10
Quick Lane Bowl - Western Michigan 52, Nevada 24
Camellia Bowl - Georgia State 51, Ball State 20:


Are you ****ing with us or do you actually think the SWAC is an FBS conference in the making. Of all the conferences in the FCS, YOU think this conference is primed and positioned to move to FBS because of what? I must be missing something here. Please enlighten me

[Bisonoline]

Are you ****ing with us or do you actually think the SWAC is an FBS conference in the making. Of all the conferences in the FCS, YOU think this conference is primed and positioned to move to FBS because of what? I must be missing something here. Please enlighten me

SWAC to FBS????? Ahhhh NFW!!!!!!

[walliver]

With the rapid changes in the NCAA, I suspect that FBS and FCS will not be real things in 5-10 years.

Since the Ivies only play with each other, it doesn't matter to me whether they are FCS, FBS, D2, D3 or NAIA.

I apply the same philosophy to the SWAC. Although I don't see any real benefit to the SWAC moving to FBS, they (as well as all conferences) should be free to choose where to play.

[bonarae]

Since the Ivies only play with each other, it doesn't matter to me whether they are FCS, FBS, D2, D3 or NAIA.

I apply the same philosophy to the SWAC. Although I don't see any real benefit to the SWAC moving to FBS, they (as well as all conferences) should be free to choose where to play.

Should either or both conferences be voted off or moved on from the FCS, which conference do you miss more from an overall standpoint? For NFL talent, I'd go with the Ivies. But for the attendance figures, SWAC keeps that afloat.

[MR. CHICKEN]

......HBCU CLASSICS.....DRAW.....ASTRO-NOMICALLY.......BUT AH'VE SPENT....MANY UH THURSDAY EVENIN'.......ON DUH DUECE....WHIFF JAY IN BOOTH......CROWDS ARE THINNER....DEN MICKEY D......BURGERS....AWK!

[Panther88]

It's amazing how those outside the community of supporters call HBCU football games "silly" classics when most of us simply view them as just a football game, remote or local. xlolx

What is the criteria for "fcs" graduation to FBS?

1. Attendance?
2. Notoriety? (history, legacy, gold jackets in Canton)
3. Athletic budget?
4. Facilities/venues?
5. Competitivity at the "fcs" level?

The SWAC has none of those. hahahaha xlolx

[SDFS]

It's amazing how those outside the community of supporters call HBCU football games "silly" classics when most of us simply view them as just a football game, remote or local. xlolx

What is the criteria for "fcs" graduation to FBS?

1. Attendance?
2. Notoriety? (history, legacy, gold jackets in Canton)
3. Athletic budget?
4. Facilities/venues?
5. Competitivity at the "fcs" level?

The SWAC has none of those. hahahaha xlolx

Talk to WAC, they might have a plan.

[DFW HOYA]

Talk to WAC, they might have a plan.

That said, would the SWAC and WAC consider a football merger as a fast-track for its schools to go FBS?

[Sader87]

The Ivy League is really the only current FCS league that could go FBS tomorrow if they wanted to given their resources, infrastucture (stadia, facilities in general), media markets etc...maybe the MVFC after the Ivies but that's really about it.

[Lumberjackfanbefore2012]

If it were the Big Sky or MVFC, I could believe it. However, both conferences would end up leaving a couple stragglers behind. I don't follow the MVFC as much, but I could see the larger Big Sky schools (Montana, Montana State, NAU, Sac State, Portland State, Weber State) move up. Maybe an FBS merger with some MVFC schools like NDSU, North Dakota, and maybe Illinois State and Missouri State. Most of these schools are already playing at a G5 level, have larger endowments, larger student populations, etc. Even then there would be a ton of hurdles. That would be one hell of a conference to watch though.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Oy vey....you guys are looking at this from the traditional FBS model. The SWAC competes in the FCS, and marginally schedules PWC schools for their very very limited OOC schedule. More often than not, they schedule their historical schedulilng partners like Langston, etc. They're not participating in the main thing that makes the FCS the FCS, intersectional play and the playoffs.

From that standpoint, it doesn't matter what division the SWAC plays in. If they moved to FBS as a conference, they could keep doing EXACTLY what they're doing now. There would be NO change whatsoever, EXCEPT that they'd have to raise more money to fund the extra schollies, but in the current woke era, that's probably easier for the SWAC to do than many would assume; and moving to a division that allows more schollies and then with the Title IX requiring an equal amount spent on women's sports, a move to FBS helps HBCUs more adequately fill their original mission parameters.

NDSU folks think "FBS" from the standpoint of competing with other conferences and trying to get to bowl cames. HBCUs and the SWAC already have that with what they're doing now....Look at it from a business perspective instead of a football product perspective.

They could, and should, be in FBS....

[FUBeAR]

Oy vey....you guys are looking at this from the traditional FBS model. The SWAC competes in the FCS, and marginally schedules PWC schools for their very very limited OOC schedule. More often than not, they schedule their historical schedulilng partners like Langston, etc. They're not participating in the main thing that makes the FCS the FCS, intersectional play and the playoffs.

From that standpoint, it doesn't matter what division the SWAC plays in. If they moved to FBS as a conference, they could keep doing EXACTLY what they're doing now. There would be NO change whatsoever, EXCEPT that they'd have to raise more money to fund the extra schollies, but in the current woke era, that's probably easier for the SWAC to do than many would assume; and moving to a division that allows more schollies and then with the Title IX requiring an equal amount spent on women's sports, a move to FBS helps HBCUs more adequately fill their original mission parameters.

NDSU folks think "FBS" from the standpoint of competing with other conferences and trying to get to bowl cames. HBCUs and the SWAC already have that with what they're doing now....Look at it from a business perspective instead of a football product perspective.

They could, and should, be in FBS....
Yep…and, as FBS Teams, they would have to be compensated equitably for their “money” games. So…about double….Let’s say $1.2 million vs. $600k for playing the same game with the same Teams…and the only difference being 1 letter to the left in the alphabet of their subdivisional assignation.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Oy vey....you guys are looking at this from the traditional FBS model. The SWAC competes in the FCS, and marginally schedules PWC schools for their very very limited OOC schedule. More often than not, they schedule their historical schedulilng partners like Langston, etc. They're not participating in the main thing that makes the FCS the FCS, intersectional play and the playoffs.

From that standpoint, it doesn't matter what division the SWAC plays in. If they moved to FBS as a conference, they could keep doing EXACTLY what they're doing now. There would be NO change whatsoever, EXCEPT that they'd have to raise more money to fund the extra schollies, but in the current woke era, that's probably easier for the SWAC to do than many would assume; and moving to a division that allows more schollies and then with the Title IX requiring an equal amount spent on women's sports, a move to FBS helps HBCUs more adequately fill their original mission parameters.

NDSU folks think "FBS" from the standpoint of competing with other conferences and trying to get to bowl cames. HBCUs and the SWAC already have that with what they're doing now....Look at it from a business perspective instead of a football product perspective.

They could, and should, be in FBS....

As far as fundraising, I'm not sure what supposedly being in the "woke era" has to do with anything. The question is, do HBCU alum and boosters have the dollars to up the ante in fundraising to support a move? The other question would be, what would the point be in raising such funds if the overall product (same schedule, marginal improvement in quality of play, same OOC games) stays the same? We know that HBCU athletic departments aren't as flush with cash as most others in our division, despite the revenue brought in from excellent football attendance, neutral site "classics" and the Celebration Bowl. Ever look at the non-conference hoops schedule for the members of the SWAC and MEAC? They all play about a dozen guarantee games on the road just so they can keep the lights on.

As you said, it doesn't really matter what division the SWAC participates in because ultimately they're going to play the same teams. No different than when the Ivy League was trivially still I-A during the first 5 or 6 years after the I-AA Division was created. They were still eschewing the postseason and playing their OOC games against the likes of Holy Cross, Northeastern, URI, UNH, Colgate and Lehigh. And if the Ivy League were reclassified as FBS tomorrow, they'd do the same. I don't blame the MEAC and SWAC for not sending their conference champ to the FCS playoffs -- the Celebration Bowl is the perfect ending to the season for that group. I'm sure FAMU fans wish they were there last year as opposed to attending a beat-down @ SE Louisiana in front of 8,000 fans (probably 5,000 on paper).

[major095]

It's going to happen. I don't expect it to take 10 years either. the only thing that troy/s.alabama/mtsu have to offer over a swac school is the opportunity to play fbs football. you level that and they'll out recruit G5 programs pretty easily and some P5 as Jackson State has already illustrated.
In terms of money, they'll have to pay for more scholarships, but the universities will grow w/ fbs membership. they'll also be able to get better corporate sponsorship, presumably a better tv payout, they'll get a 12 regular season game and larger payout against p5 (umass got 1.9 million to play auburn 2 years ago but they only paid 515k to alabama state last season).
there are some facility upgrades to make. everyone needs an indoor practice facility (except jsu who's getting one now) but stadiums are pretty good w/ only 2 needing to expand, but they don't have to go out and immediately beat g5 facilities. I think just being fbs will allow them to recruit plenty well enough.
for those saying they can't compete well, the record isn't good, but were only talking about 3 ooc games. alcorn had south alabama beat last year. Jackson should have beaten ulm as well. 2 years ago bama state competed well for 2 1/2 quarters against fsu and though they got blown out by auburn, if you watched that game you know the final score had more to do with bad coaching/preparation than overall talent (auburn was a bad football team too in my estimation).
lastly as there are limited opportunities in fbs coaching for black men, having the swac there will presumably give them more of an opportunity at that level. alcorn proved hbcus will hire white coaches. it's my understanding that bama state tried to hire hobson this time around but they couldn't agree on money.
to me there just aren't a lot of reasons to be in fcs if you're not participating in the playoffs and being in the fbs does allow them to provide more scholarships and better serve the communities they exist in.

[Libertine]

It's going to happen. I don't expect it to take 10 years either. the only thing that troy/s.alabama/mtsu have to offer over a swac school is the opportunity to play fbs football. you level that and they'll out recruit G5 programs pretty easily and some P5 as Jackson State has already illustrated.
In terms of money, they'll have to pay for more scholarships, but the universities will grow w/ fbs membership. they'll also be able to get better corporate sponsorship, presumably a better tv payout, they'll get a 12 regular season game and larger payout against p5 (umass got 1.9 million to play auburn 2 years ago but they only paid 515k to alabama state last season).
there are some facility upgrades to make. everyone needs an indoor practice facility (except jsu who's getting one now) but stadiums are pretty good w/ only 2 needing to expand, but they don't have to go out and immediately beat g5 facilities. I think just being fbs will allow them to recruit plenty well enough.


I'm sorry -- I really am -- but this is just not grounded in reality.

* Every potential student and each school is different so it's not fair to say that the only things that Troy/USA/MTSU have over SWAC schools is FBS membership. It's also not accurate to imply that Jackson State is out-recruiting P5 schools right now just because they're Jackson State; Deion Sanders is out-recruiting P5 schools. If it were JSU landing these kids just because of they're being JSU, they would have been landing them all along. It's great for them now but what happens -- and it inevitably will -- when Deion Sanders moves on?

* Half of the problem with any plan that involves moving the entire SWAC to FBS is the lack of the necessary funding across the board. Moving to FBS is crazy expensive -- not because of practice facilities and stadium upgrades -- but because of the cost of adding all the necessary administrative infrastructure to manage academic support, gameday logistics, new federal Title IX obligations, NCAA compliance obligations, medical support, etc,. Having to do all that without an existing FBS conference to help absorb or delay some of those costs is prohibitively expensive for most FCS schools and SWAC members are currently among the most poorly funded football programs in the nation. In fact, not only does MVSU have the smallest football budget of any school in D1 but, in April, Deion made a public appeal to help improve the conditions at MVSU. I'm just going to point out here that, in terms of institutional funding, the football budget at Jackson State -- for all the visibility that Sanders has brought them -- isn't all that far up the ladder from MVSU, so this isn't a case of the Have's trying to help Have Not's; this is the Haven't Much's trying to help the Have None At All's.

* The other half of the problem with a bulk SWAC move-up is poor management. Alabama A&M is currently on probation because, for half a decade, they improperly certified the eligibility of 100+ athletes across 14 sports. In fact, SWAC schools consistently seem to struggle with meeting NCAA APR requirements, including six schools being on the APR penalty list at one time in 2016 which was obviously before frequent APR-risk FAMU joined the conference; none of this necessarily reflects on the quality of academics at SWAC schools but it does illustrate a pattern of SWAC athletic departments being either unwilling or unable to properly manage the real-life academic requirements of student-athletes. Alabama State has been a running soap opera of scandal and intrigue for at least the last two decades. Just last year, Bethune-Cookman took a federal bailout to get out of a dormitory construction deal that very nearly bankrupted the school. Besides the APR disaster that is FAMU, they're just a few years removed from a hazing scandal that saw 12 band members charged with manslaughter and cost the university president his job. It wasn't long after that that the Grambling football team boycotted their own games over the crumbling and outright dangerous state of their facilities. Jackson State is obviously riding high right now but they're also on NCAA probation for academic and recruiting violations that occurred before Sanders got there.

This is all just stuff I remember off the top of my head from the last ten years.

I suppose this looks like I'm just trying to beat up on SWAC schools and I kind of am, but only to illustrate that there is a long and conference-wide pattern of mismanagement, negligence and, overall, terrible leadership in SWAC school administrations and SWAC athletic departments. Unfortunately, if the SWAC wants to move up to FBS any time soon, the people responsible for making this move will be the same people who have been dragging the conference down and/or holding it back. Not only that, but anyone who comes into money -- not me, of course, but I know a guy -- will tell you that money is nice but it doesn't really solve your problems; in fact, it amplifies them. If you wasted money before you had it, you find yourself wasting a lot more of it. If you trusted the wrong people with your money before you had it, you'll suddenly have a lot more of those wrong people around you who want you to trust them with it. My point is that having FBS facilities and budgets won't solve the leadership problem in the SWAC but it could very well make it worse. The SWAC -- as a conference but, more importantly, as individual schools -- need to have people in charge who can make hard choices that benefit the mission of their institution and, at the same time, have people in place (ie., boosters, board members, admin) that will consistently support them. I've said it earlier in this thread, the mission of the SWAC is probably best served at the FBS level; however, just because that's where the SWAC probably should be does not mean that's where it will necessarily end up, not without some major house cleaning and not within the next ten years.

[NY Crusader 2010]

It's going to happen. I don't expect it to take 10 years either. the only thing that troy/s.alabama/mtsu have to offer over a swac school is the opportunity to play fbs football. you level that and they'll out recruit G5 programs pretty easily and some P5 as Jackson State has already illustrated.
In terms of money, they'll have to pay for more scholarships, but the universities will grow w/ fbs membership. they'll also be able to get better corporate sponsorship, presumably a better tv payout, they'll get a 12 regular season game and larger payout against p5 (umass got 1.9 million to play auburn 2 years ago but they only paid 515k to alabama state last season).
there are some facility upgrades to make. everyone needs an indoor practice facility (except jsu who's getting one now) but stadiums are pretty good w/ only 2 needing to expand, but they don't have to go out and immediately beat g5 facilities. I think just being fbs will allow them to recruit plenty well enough.
for those saying they can't compete well, the record isn't good, but were only talking about 3 ooc games. alcorn had south alabama beat last year. Jackson should have beaten ulm as well. 2 years ago bama state competed well for 2 1/2 quarters against fsu and though they got blown out by auburn, if you watched that game you know the final score had more to do with bad coaching/preparation than overall talent (auburn was a bad football team too in my estimation).
lastly as there are limited opportunities in fbs coaching for black men, having the swac there will presumably give them more of an opportunity at that level. alcorn proved hbcus will hire white coaches. it's my understanding that bama state tried to hire hobson this time around but they couldn't agree on money.
to me there just aren't a lot of reasons to be in fcs if you're not participating in the playoffs and being in the fbs does allow them to provide more scholarships and better serve the communities they exist in.

The issue with this argument is that the SWAC as a whole isn't competitive relative to the division they're in now (FCS). So there's no logic in the presumption that they will be more competitive at the FBS level. Remember, to bridge the funding gap, the likes of App State and JMU are having to jack up student fees to pay for cost increases. Could/would SWAC universities do this? It's almost the same argument made by Holy Cross alum who blame our recent Men's Basketball ineptitude on being in the Patriot League. Sure, we'd get better recruits and have stronger teams if we somehow got into the Big East or A-10 tomorrow. But that doesn't mean our institution is in a position to be competitive in those leagues year over year.

That being said, I do think 1 or 2 HBCU programs could make the jump to play at the next level. Jackson State for one. Relative to the region, the state of Mississippi isn't oversaturated with FBS programs -- only Ole Miss, Miss State and Southern Miss. Jackson would be the 4th FBS school and 2nd G5 school in the state. North Carolina A&T is the other I would say could make the move. FAMU if we hadn't watched that movie already. Their failed attempt to move up to I-A in the early 2000's set in motion a chain of events that literally set their program back 20 years.

[FUBeAR]

Oy vey....you guys are looking at this from the traditional FBS model.

Look at it from a business perspective instead of a football product perspective.

They could, and should, be in FBS....Thinking, possibly, living in the South gives some of us a different perspective on this topic…

If FBS is still a ‘thing’ in the next 3 years or so and the SWAC and/or MEAC decide they want to petition to be an FBS Conference, they will attain the equitable access they desire to compete at that level; a level from which these schools have, historically, been excluded by those in power in college athletics for so many years.

Each school, initially, will still only play 1 (2 at the most) CURRENT FBS Team each season (just as many of these schools do now, but for 2x-4x the $$$’s they get now) with the remainder of games being Conference games, SWAC/MEAC Intra-Conference games, 1 or 2 OOC FCS games, and the end of season championships and the Celebration Bowl, which will become an FBS ‘certified’ Bowl with ‘Conference tie-in’s’ to the SWAC / MEAC. As they will be ‘now’ be FBS, ESPN will provide this/these Conference(s) with a lucrative TV contract.

Best case, these schools will be able to leverage this transition and the financial upgrades via getting paid 2-4x more for “money” games, TV contracts, and increased Corporate contributions to improve their on-the-field Football competitiveness and, maybe, eventually, accept bids to other Bowls or even to the FBS Championships games/playoffs. BUT, that doesn’t have to happen for this to be a successful move. They can mostly remain insulated from having to ‘prove it on the field’ OOC.

If they are bold enough to pursue this path, their current level of Football competitiveness and/or Financial preparedness is, essentially, irrelevant.

Y’all get it yet…or nah?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Oy vey....you guys are looking at this from the traditional FBS model. The SWAC competes in the FCS, and marginally schedules PWC schools for their very very limited OOC schedule. More often than not, they schedule their historical schedulilng partners like Langston, etc. They're not participating in the main thing that makes the FCS the FCS, intersectional play and the playoffs.

From that standpoint, it doesn't matter what division the SWAC plays in. If they moved to FBS as a conference, they could keep doing EXACTLY what they're doing now. There would be NO change whatsoever, EXCEPT that they'd have to raise more money to fund the extra schollies, but in the current woke era, that's probably easier for the SWAC to do than many would assume; and moving to a division that allows more schollies and then with the Title IX requiring an equal amount spent on women's sports, a move to FBS helps HBCUs more adequately fill their original mission parameters.

NDSU folks think "FBS" from the standpoint of competing with other conferences and trying to get to bowl cames. HBCUs and the SWAC already have that with what they're doing now....Look at it from a business perspective instead of a football product perspective.

They could, and should, be in FBS....

This is a good point. People don't follow and attend HBCU football games because of the quality of play on the field. It's about the paegentry, tradition and the bands. And while their teams aren't as well rounded and deep as top-flight FCS competition, they do continue to have a strong legacy of NFL alum. IMO, HBCU football probably merits more national TV attention. Perhaps reclassifying to FBS would assist with this. But if TPTB allowed the SWAC to "move up" as a conference, I think they'd also have to allow The Valley to do the same. G5 and FCS may end up being the same division in 10 years anyway, let's see.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Thinking, possibly, living in the South gives some of us a different perspective on this topic…

If FBS is still a ‘thing’ in the next 3 years or so and the SWAC and/or MEAC decide they want to petition to be an FBS Conference, they will attain the equitable access they desire to compete at that level; a level from which these schools have, historically, been excluded by those in power in college athletics for so many years.

Each school, initially, will still only play 1 (2 at the most) CURRENT FBS Team each season (just as many of these schools do now, but for 2x-4x the $$$’s they get now) with the remainder of games being Conference games, SWAC/MEAC Intra-Conference games, 1 or 2 OOC FCS games, and the end of season championships and the Celebration Bowl, which will become an FBS ‘certified’ Bowl with ‘Conference tie-in’s’ to the SWAC / MEAC. As they will be ‘now’ be FBS, ESPN will provide this/these Conference(s) with a lucrative TV contract.

Best case, these schools will be able to leverage this transition and the financial upgrades via getting paid 2-4x more for “money” games, TV contracts, and increased Corporate contributions to improve their on-the-field Football competitiveness and, maybe, eventually, accept bids to other Bowls or even to the FBS Championships games/playoffs. BUT, that doesn’t have to happen for this to be a successful move. They can mostly remain insulated from having to ‘prove it on the field’ OOC.

If they are bold enough to pursue this path, their current level of Football competitiveness and/or Financial preparedness is, essentially, irrelevant.

Y’all get it yet…or nah?


NAH...........LIBERTINE NAILED IT.........SCANDAL/MISMANAGEMENT......UNQUALIFIED IN HIGH POSITIONS......THROW ALL DUH DUCATS YA CAN DRUM UP.........AT IT............AH DON'T CARE ONE WAY/OTHERAH.......BUT THOSE REASONS HE POINTS OUT....HAD UH LOT TA DO WHIFF.....WHAA.......DELAWARE/DELAWARE STATE......TOOK SO LONG........AN' NOW WE......RUN DUH BALL..ALL 4th Q......TA NOT EMBARRASS 'EM..........BRAWK!

[FormerPokeCenter]

As far as fundraising, I'm not sure what supposedly being in the "woke era" has to do with anything.

Corporations are bending over backwards to appear woke. Donations to HBCUs is one way to do that...and any HBCU out there in a fundraising crunch needs to be exploiting that....


I'm sure FAMU fans wish they were there last year as opposed to attending a beat-down @ SE Louisiana in front of 8,000 fans (probably 5,000 on paper).

We're in lockstep unison on this. There's NEVER any legitimate reason to go to Hammond, unless you're strugling for a legitimate reason to feel better about yourself ;)

[crusader11]

A conference which routinely ranks at the bottom of the FCS wants to go FBS? Yeah, okay.

[Herder]

Does the SWAC have a 15 year plan to compete at the FCS level? Pretty sure they are not doing that today.

So the NCAA bi-laws require a team to join an existing FBS conference in order to move the FBS level. So, do they just make an exception for the SWAC? An exception that no other conference would have available to them? Why would the SWAC have a special privilege that no other conference has? Oh, that's why

[katss07]

Would’ve liked to see CUSA take a chance on an HBCU as opposed to taking Sam like they did. Think JSU or FAMU or A&T would’ve been great for that conference, and offer great upside for any G5 conference in terms of fan engagement, viewership and attendance. It’s not 2003 anymore, seems like these programs are doing what they can to reverse the narrative. Might not be a better time to try than now.

Also wouldn’t look too deep into what SWAC teams are doing at the FCS as some sort of barometer for what they’d do in FBS. Things would obviously change once the label is simply attached.

[major095]

Does the SWAC have a 15 year plan to compete at the FCS level? Pretty sure they are not doing that today.

So the NCAA bi-laws require a team to join an existing FBS conference in order to move the FBS level. So, do they just make an exception for the SWAC? An exception that no other conference would have available to them? Why would the SWAC have a special privilege that no other conference has? Oh, that's why
https://www.liberty.edu/news/2017/02/16/ncaa-approves-libertys-waiver-request-for-fbs-reclassification-process/

[unknown-swac]

I like the swac but I think a lot of these folks are delusional lol. 75% of the conference wouldn't be able to afford it. JSU, SU and FAMU are probably the only schools in the conference that could actually pull this off. It sounds good when you don't really have to explain how you're going to actually finance it though. Most will have to add more sports programs when they can't afford the ones they already have outside of football and basketball. It would be silly.

[unknown-swac]

https://www.liberty.edu/news/2017/02/16/ncaa-approves-libertys-waiver-request-for-fbs-reclassification-process/

This isn't a good example. Liberty is a diploma mill with an amount of money to spend on leverage that's more than every school in the SWAC put together. It's not a coincidence that they are able to pay P5 teams to come to their stadium without any issues. If that's the method you're hoping for, no one in the SWAC would be able to afford it. And, that waiver they got is not going to given to a whole conference. Plus, I don't get what this move even gains you. It won't get you a better media deal, you'll spend far more money to move up, only to play the same schools with 1 or 2 out of conference games here and there? I don't really get the point. You'll get more for payouts from the few money games, but outside of that what are you gaining?

[FUBeAR]

This isn't a good example. Liberty is a diploma mill with an amount of money to spend on leverage that's more than every school in the SWAC put together. It's not a coincidence that they are able to pay P5 teams to come to their stadium without any issues. If that's the method you're hoping for, no one in the SWAC would be able to afford it. And, that waiver they got is not going to given to a whole conference. Plus, I don't get what this move even gains you. It won't get you a better media deal, you'll spend far more money to move up, only to play the same schools with 1 or 2 out of conference games here and there? I don't really get the point. You'll get more for payouts from the few money games, but outside of that what are you gaining?
It is a good example of a school getting what they wanted because they had a reasonable assertion that they were being unfairly discriminated against based upon Title VI criteria - religious discrimination in Liberty’s case. SWAC/MEAC/HBCU schools can reasonably make that same assertion based upon racial discrimination. The NCAA initially acted like they were willing to fight Liberty until they realized LU was willing to outspend them in legal fees. Doubtful the NCAA would put up any kind of ‘fight’ if these schools decide this is what they want to do. To the contrary, FUBeAR thinks the NCAA would make a big ‘show’ and some investment in enabling such a transition.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I like the swac but I think a lot of these folks are delusional lol. 75% of the conference wouldn't be able to afford it. JSU, SU and FAMU are probably the only schools in the conference that could actually pull this off. It sounds good when you don't really have to explain how you're going to actually finance it though. Most will have to add more sports programs when they can't afford the ones they already have outside of football and basketball. It would be silly.

And one of those three has already tried to pull it off, and failed.

I do think it would be cool to see a HBCU successfully make it in FBS. I almost think that NCAT and Jackson State should make a push to join CUSA.

[NY Crusader 2010]

https://www.liberty.edu/news/2017/02/16/ncaa-approves-libertys-waiver-request-for-fbs-reclassification-process/

Liberty probably has more $$$ at its disposal than at least the SWAC schools put together. They definitely paid someone off to make the move.

[Libertine]

Wow.

You know, over the years, I've gotten used to a certain amount of hate and ignorance when it comes to Liberty. The hate doesn't bother me anymore and I've tried to help educate the ignorant where I could. Still, the amount of both on this page alone in a thread about the SWAC... <deep breath> ...back to work, I guess.


Liberty is a diploma mill with an amount of money to spend on leverage that's more than every school in the SWAC put together. It's not a coincidence that they are able to pay P5 teams to come to their stadium without any issues.

If your definition of a diploma mill is an academic campus where students spend four years living in dorms, going to classes five days a week, taking exams, getting grades commensurate with their abilities and effort then, sure, it's a diploma mill. You should take that up with SACS which you may recognize as the same accrediting agency that verifies the educational veracity of 11/12ths of the SWAC. If it's the online program -- also accredited through SACS, incidentally -- that has you ruffled, please bear in mind that Liberty was involved in distance learning well before the internet existed, back when taking a class remotely involved watching lectures on VHS tape and dropping exams in the mail. Because that infrastructure was already in place even in analog form, LU was already way ahead of the game and got a jump on the digital education marketplace long before most schools realized it even existed.

As for "paying P5 schools" for home games, that hasn't happened...yet. Yes, LU has hosted Syracuse, will host BYU and Virginia Tech this year, and are scheduled to host several P5's in the future. ALL of those are part of home-and-home deals; actually, most have been 2-for-1 deals where Liberty travels twice and gets the P5 at home once. The vast majority of LU's football scheduling has been done using the home-and-home model and, in fact, the only FBS game that Liberty has ever outright bought was the FBS opener vs. ODU in 2018. That got some press at the time because LU gave ODU a crazy amount of money to lock in the game but the reality was that Liberty essentially just signed over to ODU the game check they received from Auburn later in the year.


It is a good example of a school getting what they wanted because they had a reasonable assertion that they were being unfairly discriminated against based upon Title VI criteria - religious discrimination in Liberty’s case.
Religious discrimination had nothing to do with any of it. The NCAA's rule about requiring an FBS invitation may arguably be anti-competitive but it's not arbitrary. It exists specifically because of FAMU's poorly-planned, not at all executed and, ultimately, abandoned attempt to jump to FBS in 2004. As mentioned before, moving to FBS requires an absurd amount of work on the part of a university and LU began around the end of the 2000's to make a concerted effort to be "FBS-ready". By 2016, the FBS mechanisms were mostly in place and all LU had to do was get a visit from the NCAA leadership to show that the only thing keeping them from being competitive at the FBS level was the NCAA's designation; the NCAA's committee unanimously approved a waiver. There were no legal threats or posturing, it was unnecessary.


Liberty probably has more $$$ at its disposal than at least the SWAC schools put together. They definitely paid someone off to make the move.
You are alleging flat-out bribery. I've already pointed out above why Liberty was in an easily understandable position to make the move to FBS but, if you're so convinced that a federal crime took place, name names.

Back to the topic at hand, major095's suggestion that the SWAC could do as a group what Liberty did as an individual school is not necessarily out-of-context but it is wildly unrealistic. As I said above, LU was already prepared for FBS before getting the waiver and, in theory, the SWAC schools could go that same route. However, the odds that all twelve member schools would be able to simultaneously manage this effort while also dealing with their existing challenges are, at best, overwhelmingly staggering.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Wow.

You know, over the years, I've gotten used to a certain amount of hate and ignorance when it comes to Liberty. The hate doesn't bother me anymore and I've tried to help educate the ignorant where I could. Still, the amount of both on this page alone in a thread about the SWAC... <deep breath> ...back to work, I guess.



If your definition of a diploma mill is an academic campus where students spend four years living in dorms, going to classes five days a week, taking exams, getting grades commensurate with their abilities and effort then, sure, it's a diploma mill. You should take that up with SACS which you may recognize as the same accrediting agency that verifies the educational veracity of 11/12ths of the SWAC. If it's the online program -- also accredited through SACS, incidentally -- that has you ruffled, please bear in mind that Liberty was involved in distance learning well before the internet existed, back when taking a class remotely involved watching lectures on VHS tape and dropping exams in the mail. Because that infrastructure was already in place even in analog form, LU was already way ahead of the game and got a jump on the digital education marketplace long before most schools realized it even existed.

As for "paying P5 schools" for home games, that hasn't happened...yet. Yes, LU has hosted Syracuse, will host BYU and Virginia Tech this year, and are scheduled to host several P5's in the future. ALL of those are part of home-and-home deals; actually, most have been 2-for-1 deals where Liberty travels twice and gets the P5 at home once. The vast majority of LU's football scheduling has been done using the home-and-home model and, in fact, the only FBS game that Liberty has ever outright bought was the FBS opener vs. ODU in 2018. That got some press at the time because LU gave ODU a crazy amount of money to lock in the game but the reality was that Liberty essentially just signed over to ODU the game check they received from Auburn later in the year.


Religious discrimination had nothing to do with any of it. The NCAA's rule about requiring an FBS invitation may arguably be anti-competitive but it's not arbitrary. It exists specifically because of FAMU's poorly-planned, not at all executed and, ultimately, abandoned attempt to jump to FBS in 2004. As mentioned before, moving to FBS requires an absurd amount of work on the part of a university and LU began around the end of the 2000's to make a concerted effort to be "FBS-ready". By 2016, the FBS mechanisms were mostly in place and all LU had to do was get a visit from the NCAA leadership to show that the only thing keeping them from being competitive at the FBS level was the NCAA's designation; the NCAA's committee unanimously approved a waiver. There were no legal threats or posturing, it was unnecessary.


You are alleging flat-out bribery. I've already pointed out above why Liberty was in an easily understandable position to make the move to FBS but, if you're so convinced that a federal crime took place, name names.

Back to the topic at hand, major095's suggestion that the SWAC could do as a group what Liberty did as an individual school is not necessarily out-of-context but it is wildly unrealistic. As I said above, LU was already prepared for FBS before getting the waiver and, in theory, the SWAC schools could go that same route. However, the odds that all twelve member schools would be able to simultaneously manage this effort while also dealing with their existing challenges are, at best, overwhelmingly staggering.

Great info across the board. Sounds like you're pretty in the know on this topic.

Question: I seem to recall that when FAMU announced in 2002 or 2003 that they were transitioning to I-A that they had a conditional invite from Conference USA once they successfully completed the transition (which they didn't). Do you know if that's accurate? And this was the Conference USA that included at the time the likes of Louisville, Memphis, South Florida, East Carolina, Houston, Tulane, etc.

Looking back, that seems like a bit of a stretch and that if FAMU did successfully transition to I-A that the Sun Belt would've been the most logical landing spot at the time (ULL, ULM, MTSU, North Texas, Arkansas State, Troy, New Mexico State, etc. with FAU and FIU also rapidly ramping up at the time to move up).

[unknown-swac]

It is a good example of a school getting what they wanted because they had a reasonable assertion that they were being unfairly discriminated against based upon Title VI criteria - religious discrimination in Liberty’s case. SWAC/MEAC/HBCU schools can reasonably make that same assertion based upon racial discrimination. The NCAA initially acted like they were willing to fight Liberty until they realized LU was willing to outspend them in legal fees. Doubtful the NCAA would put up any kind of ‘fight’ if these schools decide this is what they want to do. To the contrary, FUBeAR thinks the NCAA would make a big ‘show’ and some investment in enabling such a transition.

No one in the swac has even close to Liberty money. You can petition all you want but you still have to be able to actually fund it when it's said and done.

[unknown-swac]

Also, diploma mill as in the online programs are about as difficult as 10th grade AP courses. Ask me how I know? Regardless, it's two totally different situations.

[Libertine]

Great info across the board. Sounds like you're pretty in the know on this topic.

Question: I seem to recall that when FAMU announced in 2002 or 2003 that they were transitioning to I-A that they had a conditional invite from Conference USA once they successfully completed the transition (which they didn't). Do you know if that's accurate?

I worked in college athletics for two decades and had a front row seat for Liberty's move. Aside from general banter and some occasional history, "moving from FCS->FBS" is really my only area of expertise on an FCS board anymore. ;)

FAMU tried to go up as an Independent, largely because they rushed the move. The process back then was supposed to take 5-6 years but FAMU tried to get it done in just two. If they had taken more time, it might actually have worked out and the NCAA might not have changed the rules to put a damper on later move-ups. There's a couple of articles about what happend here (https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/5/4/11429522/florida-am-football-history-billy-joe-jake-gaither) and here (https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/09/sports/ncaafootball/florida-am-tries-to-recover-from-failed-bid.html).

[walliver]

I can’t remember when was the last tkmd the NCAA actually won an anti-trust lawsuit. At this point, just about any school of conference that threatens a lawsuit will get what they want.

[FUBeAR]

Wow.

You know, over the years…when it comes to Liberty…I've tried to help educate the ignorant where I could. <deep breath> ...back to work, I guess.
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/2BB984zUTwTyJYdEyHMEgE-1200-80.jpg

Religious discrimination had nothing to do with any of it…the NCAA's committee unanimously approved a waiver. There were no legal threats or posturing, it was unnecessary.

Thank you for your effort to ameliorate FUBeAR’s ignorance. He feels honored to have you bother to help him despite his unwashed state.

However, FUBeAR received an earlier education at a liberal arts school where he was taught to consider issues from all sides, seek multiple sources of knowledge, combine that knowledge with his life experiences, and think deeply about something before he determined what is truth and how he feels about that truth.

So, while FUBeAR appreciates you expressing your opinion of how Liberty made the transition from FCS to FBS without having an invitation to join from an FBS conference, he remains unconvinced that the NCAA’s aversion to entering into a protracted public legal wrangling over the issue of religious discrimination did not play a significant part in the granting of the waiver that Liberty received.

https://www.midmajormadness.com/2015/8/31/9228117/double-bonus-realignment-potential-liberty-lawsuit-poetic-justice-for
“A commentary this week from our friends over a Liberty Flames Nation (http://www.libertyflamesnation.com/the-heat-the-sun-belt-shows-its-hand/) really caught my eye. Frustration has reached a fever pitch from Flames fan and it's turning to anger being directly at the Sun Belt. Is the anger warranted? Maybe. Here is Duke Cueno's theory:
Liberty University is being discriminated against on the basis of religious beliefs. I have been very hesitant to say this, but at this point, it is plainly obvious…”

”…it may end up in a lawsuit with the conference or NCAA if the Flames do not find a home soon or become an FBS Independent.”

https://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2017/february/16/liberty-granted-waiver-move-fbs-independent (https://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2017/february/16/liberty-granted-waiver-move-fbs-independent)
“…the NCAA knew a prolonged legal battle over the conference invitation requirement would be a risk. And Liberty has the resources to fight the battle.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2017/09/28/jerry-falwell-jr-believes-religious-bias-kept-liberty-out-conference/713957001/
“Though Falwell says he’s happy with the outcome of joining FBS as an independent, pointing out the attractiveness of Liberty’s schedule, he’s still clearly unhappy with the way discussions played out with the Sun Belt in 2014 and C-USA more recently, where he claims a small number of presidents in each league objected based “purely” on religious grounds.
“We were told by people who were in the meetings the reasons they gave were all related to Liberty’s Christian evangelical mission and one of them brought up something my dad said in 2001 after the 9-11 attacks as a reason,” Falwell said. “When three presidents said we weren’t gong to support Liberty, no matter how qualified or how good they’d be for the league, they canceled a visit and we complained. For a public college president to (deny) a school as a member of a conference based on religious mission is illegal. It would be like opposing a school because it’s a historically black institution. We called governors and attorney generals and various states where these schools were located.”


Many additional sources discussing Liberty’s move from FCS to FBS, associated alleged religious discrimination, and possible legal action are available…um, despite FUBeAR’s ignorance.

[caribbeanhen]

Also, diploma mill as in the online programs are about as difficult as 10th grade AP courses. Ask me how I know? Regardless, it's two totally different situations.


Right but it’s so much tougher to profit off high school kids

college = scam

[Libertine]

Many additional sources discussing Liberty’s move from FCS to FBS, associated alleged religious discrimination, and possible legal action are available…um, despite FUBeAR’s ignorance.

I apologize for implying that FUBeAR is ignorant -- based on prior posts, you're obviously not -- and I kind of knew this response was coming after I re-read my own post. I should have done better at parsing my frustration. In this case, I would describe yours as "informed ignorance" in that you've been informed by people who were themselves ignorant.

* Duke Cuneo was an undergrad student writing for a free fan blog -- as were most of the contributors to (the now defunct) Liberty Flames Nation site -- and, as such, was absolutely clueless about the workings of LU's reclassification efforts. That the blog you quoted picked up on his comments and ran with them as actual journalism should be embarrassing for them.
* TheKeyPlay.com is also a fan site for Virginia Tech fans, many of whom were not thrilled to have another FBS program an hour and change from their front door.
* I'll give you the Falwell quote about religious discrimination from after things went south with the Sun Belt but I'll PM you as to why that's not accurate either. But, aside from the guy at the top, there was zero serious discussion in-house of religious bias keeping LU out of FBS.

[FUBeAR]

Falwell…aside from the guy at the top, there was zero serious discussion in-house of religious bias keeping LU out of FBS.
Those discussions didn’t need to be held at LU, publicly or privately. The NCAA only had to fear that LU possessed ‘nuclear weapons’ (reasonable evidence of religious discrimination, which existed) and was not afraid to use them. The NCAA knew that LU had been involved in many, many, many lawsuits over the years, had an ‘army’ of lawyers at their disposal, and had the financial resources to match and exceed the NCAA’s.

As this was not even a situation of assured mutual destruction, the NCAA decided to, as become their habit, cave in like a JiffyPop container, and die on another hill on another day.

Back to the point - the NCAA, if the SWAC or MEAC decided to petition to move to FBS, would roll out the red carpet and open the wallets of their corporate sycophants to them.

[caribbeanhen]

I apologize for implying that FUBeAR is ignorant -- based on prior posts, you're obviously not -- and I kind of knew this response was coming after I re-read my own post. I should have done better at parsing my frustration. In this case, I would describe yours as "informed ignorance" in that you've been informed by people who were themselves ignorant.

* Duke Cuneo was an undergrad student writing for a free fan blog -- as were most of the contributors to (the now defunct) Liberty Flames Nation site -- and, as such, was absolutely clueless about the workings of LU's reclassification efforts. That the blog you quoted picked up on his comments and ran with them as actual journalism should be embarrassing for them.
* TheKeyPlay.com is also a fan site for Virginia Tech fans, many of whom were not thrilled to have another FBS program an hour and change from their front door.
* I'll give you the Falwell quote about religious discrimination from after things went south with the Sun Belt but I'll PM you as to why that's not accurate either. But, aside from the guy at the top, there was zero serious discussion in-house of religious bias keeping LU out of FBS.


your post was one the best on here all summer and besides, FuBeARs flattering image of you educating us was just as I imagined you look like, no insult intended

[NY Crusader 2010]

I apologize for implying that FUBeAR is ignorant -- based on prior posts, you're obviously not -- and I kind of knew this response was coming after I re-read my own post. I should have done better at parsing my frustration. In this case, I would describe yours as "informed ignorance" in that you've been informed by people who were themselves ignorant.

* Duke Cuneo was an undergrad student writing for a free fan blog -- as were most of the contributors to (the now defunct) Liberty Flames Nation site -- and, as such, was absolutely clueless about the workings of LU's reclassification efforts. That the blog you quoted picked up on his comments and ran with them as actual journalism should be embarrassing for them.
* TheKeyPlay.com is also a fan site for Virginia Tech fans, many of whom were not thrilled to have another FBS program an hour and change from their front door.
* I'll give you the Falwell quote about religious discrimination from after things went south with the Sun Belt but I'll PM you as to why that's not accurate either. But, aside from the guy at the top, there was zero serious discussion in-house of religious bias keeping LU out of FBS.

As of the first of this month, they have another.

[Libertine]

Those discussions didn’t need to be held at LU, publicly or privately. The NCAA only had to fear that LU possessed ‘nuclear weapons’ (reasonable evidence of religious discrimination, which existed) and was not afraid to use them. The NCAA knew that LU had been involved in many, many, many lawsuits over the years, had an ‘army’ of lawyers at their disposal, and had the financial resources to match and exceed the NCAA’s.

As this was not even a situation of assured mutual destruction, the NCAA decided to, as become their habit, cave in like a JiffyPop container, and die on another hill on another day.


I disagree with the facts of your argument but I accept the logic of it.

[Anthony215]

With the current progression the only SWAC schools I see who could move up and be successful as a G5 program would be JSU, FAMU, Southern, Grambling, ASU, Alabama A&M and PVSU. Texas Southern, Bethune Cookman, Alcorn, & APB all aren't in position to be able to succeed at that level.

[NY Crusader 2010]

With the current progression the only SWAC schools I see who could move up and be successful as a G5 program would be JSU, FAMU, Southern, Grambling, ASU, Alabama A&M and PVSU. Texas Southern, Bethune Cookman, Alcorn, & APB all aren't in position to be able to succeed at that level.

The 3 highlighted plus NCAT would have the best chance to make it work. As discussed in this thread, FAMU tried it already and the fallout from the failed move set the program back 20 years.

[taper]

The 3 highlighted plus NCAT would have the best chance to make it work. As discussed in this thread, FAMU tried it already and the fallout from the failed move set the program back 20 years.
Grambling boycotted a game in 2013 and last year wrote a letter of no confidence in the university administration. That program is no condition to go FBS. Based on past history and current budgets I have serious doubts any of the SWAC could do it. I'd be very glad to be proven wrong and see a top to bottom institutional and administration change at these schools, because that's what it's going to take.