2022 Ivy and Patriot Leagues Megathread

[bonarae]

Since we are so few of us these days xsmhx, let's merge our separate threads and call it a megathread just to vibe with the MVFC, SoCon, SLC, WAC/ASun and CAA, who all have a large presence here.

Let's discuss these friend leagues in this thread.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Which Ivy and PL schools are not represented on Crossports?

I can't recall any posters recently from the following:

Bucknell
Cornell
Columbia
Penn
Princeton
Brown

We could probably include the NEC as that league is also underrepresented big time on here. CCSU has ace but aside from that it's pretty quiet.

[Go Green]

Not much news to discuss on the Ivy side.

The only thing I can possibly think of that would be of interest to the AGS community was that some of the guys on the Ivy Board think that the movement to "Super Conferences" will render the rest of the football classifications obsolete and the Ivy will return to playing Williams, Amherst and other NE academic-minded schools rather than the Valpos and San Diegos of the world.

I don't agree. So long as the NCAA controls the basketball tournament, the classifications (as well as the Dayton Rule) will be around for a while...

[NY Crusader 2010]

Not much news to discuss on the Ivy side.

The only thing I can possibly think of that would be of interest to the AGS community was that some of the guys on the Ivy Board think that the movement to "Super Conferences" will render the rest of the football classifications obsolete and the Ivy will return to playing Williams, Amherst and other NE academic-minded schools rather than the Valpos and San Diegos of the world.

I don't agree. So long as the NCAA controls the basketball tournament, the classifications (as well as the Dayton Rule) will be around for a while...

I think the P5 (maybe not even ALL of the P5) wind up taking their ball and go home to their own semi-pro league in football for sure. And everything else will fall into place. FCS will be FCS. The Ivies, Patriot, NEC and CAA will continue to play each other.

I wonder most about what happens to the schools at the bottom of the P5 as currently structured. Do private schools like BC, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Duke and Northwestern drop off from the big guys in football and create a "Magnolia League" of sorts? Some smaller state schools in the P5 will face challenges as well. Are Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Kansas State and Georgia Tech going to be able to compete with the likes of Alabama, Texas, Ohio State and Michigan when it comes to this new world of NIL?

[DFW HOYA]

FCS will be FCS. The Ivies, Patriot, NEC and CAA will continue to play each other.

Wearing purple glasses in Worcester suggests a very rosy view of all things PL. Try looking at it from Lewisburg or Washington, where there is considerably less.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Wearing purple glasses in Worcester suggests a very rosy view of all things PL. Try looking at it from Lewisburg or Washington, where there is considerably less.

Have you heard about how how our basketball team is doing in the PL lately? Trust me, the Chesney honeymoon is purely isolated to football.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I think the P5 (maybe not even ALL of the P5) wind up taking their ball and go home to their own semi-pro league in football for sure. And everything else will fall into place. FCS will be FCS. The Ivies, Patriot, NEC and CAA will continue to play each other.

I wonder most about what happens to the schools at the bottom of the P5 as currently structured. Do private schools like BC, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Duke and Northwestern drop off from the big guys in football and create a "Magnolia League" of sorts? Some smaller state schools in the P5 will face challenges as well. Are Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Kansas State and Georgia Tech going to be able to compete with the likes of Alabama, Texas, Ohio State and Michigan when it comes to this new world of NIL?

...... WEREN'T COMPETIN'.....B/4 ADDITIONS........'BAMA....WILL NEED UH SATURDAY OFF....FROM DUH LIKES UH GEORGIA/OKLAHOMA/SAMFORD/CITADEL........PLENTY UH TV SPACE ON TUESDAYS/WEDNESDAYS/FRIDAYS.........ANYBODY WHOM MISSED DUH MID 'MERICAN GAMES IN NOVEMBER...LAST SEASON.........MISSED SOME GREAT PIGGY......BRAWK!

[bonarae]

I think the P5 (maybe not even ALL of the P5) wind up taking their ball and go home to their own semi-pro league in football for sure. And everything else will fall into place. FCS will be FCS. The Ivies, Patriot, NEC and CAA will continue to play each other.

I wonder most about what happens to the schools at the bottom of the P5 as currently structured. Do private schools like BC, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Duke and Northwestern drop off from the big guys in football and create a "Magnolia League" of sorts? Some smaller state schools in the P5 will face challenges as well. Are Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Kansas State and Georgia Tech going to be able to compete with the likes of Alabama, Texas, Ohio State and Michigan when it comes to this new world of NIL?

The next few seasons will be challenging for us for sure. Diversifying our future schedules seems like a reach day after day... xbawlingx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Hopefully the PL, NEC, CAA and IL continue a close alliance that is based on "proper" ideology. I continue to enjoy the Ivy League games for Lehigh knowing if the Hawks ever get their act together, they can be big time battles.

As for Lehigh....

I can't think of a more depressing time to be a Lehigh football fan. There is simply so little hope with Gilmore at the helm that my emotional investment has never been lower heading into a season. With that said, if Lehigh goes 4-7 or worse I think he will be gone. Given the schedule I believe 2-9/3-8 is definitely on the table. There's simply a dearth of talent relative to Lehigh's ceiling. It's a damn shame honestly because the program SHOULD be far better.....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am currently watching Rutgers vs Virginia Tech from 1992 on the BTN. The game is being played at the "old" Rutgers Stadium which gives the atmosphere a very unique (?) feel; to say the least. Honestly, it really doesn't translate much different than a Lehigh-Delaware, Lehigh-Lafayette game from that era in terms of facilities, crowd, level of play etc. It's fascinating to see teams/programs evolve (in varying contexts) over the years while others tend to stagnate or remain uncertain of their purpose. In many ways Rutgers is a CAA team on roids at this point and it shows. The Scarlet Knights could have survived just fine playing a steady diet of Princeton, Lehigh, Delaware, Penn, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Colgate, Yale, Army etc. if the school committed to academics and regional athletics. I guess the same could be said for Temple, UMass, Uconn, Boston College and maybe Pitt and Syracuse?

The Northeast is one region of the country where the traditional college football model focused on geographical relevancy and the fundamental concept of the student-athlete has the capacity to catch on.

BTW, Rutgers wins on a prayer pass to the corner of the end zone on the last play of the game, no time left! The fans storm the field! What a day for Rutgers football!!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

2022 Record Predictions?

1. Holy Cross 10-1 (6-0)
2. Colgate 5-6 (4-2)
3. Fordham 5-6 (4-2)
4. Lafayette 4-7 (2-4)
5. Lehigh 3-8 (2-4)
6. Georgetown 2-9 (1-5)
7. Bucknell 1-10 (0-6)

[Go Green]

2022 Record Predictions?

1. Holy Cross 10-1 (6-0)


Who beats Holy Cross?

[bonarae]

Who beats Holy Cross?

Buffalo. But by how big? Scalp is likely for the Fitton Crusaders, though.

[Go Green]

Buffalo. But by how big? Scalp is likely for the Fitton Crusaders, though.

Fortunately for HC, the Merrimack game is before Buffalo. So there probably won't be a let-down if the Crusaders get the FBS win like last year. :)

[Southsider]

Hopefully the PL, NEC, CAA and IL continue a close alliance that is based on "proper" ideology. I continue to enjoy the Ivy League games for Lehigh knowing if the Hawks ever get their act together, they can be big time battles.

As for Lehigh....

I can't think of a more depressing time to be a Lehigh football fan. There is simply so little hope with Gilmore at the helm that my emotional investment has never been lower heading into a season. With that said, if Lehigh goes 4-7 or worse I think he will be gone. Given the schedule I believe 2-9/3-8 is definitely on the table. There's simply a dearth of talent relative to Lehigh's ceiling. It's a damn shame honestly because the program SHOULD be far better.....

Once again Owl, you nailed it! In the last 45 years I have missed less than 10 home games. Now I have to drag myself to Goodman and try to look interested. It's getting harder and harder to do so......

[Fordham]

2022 Record Predictions?

1. Holy Cross 10-1 (6-0)
2. Colgate 5-6 (4-2)
3. Fordham 5-6 (4-2)
4. Lafayette 4-7 (2-4)
5. Lehigh 3-8 (2-4)
6. Georgetown 2-9 (1-5)
7. Bucknell 1-10 (0-6)
It would be a VERY disappointing year imo if we aren't a clear second with a record that can get us an at large. We are absolutely loaded as much as any year I've been a Fordham fan. Only HC should be clear favorites over us (obviously) in the PL but our OOC skid is very strong and it will be interesting to see how we match up with Stony Brook, Monmouth and Albany.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It would be a VERY disappointing year imo if we aren't a clear second with a record that can get us an at large. We are absolutely loaded as much as any year I've been a Fordham fan. Only HC should be clear favorites over us (obviously) in the PL but our OOC skid is very strong and it will be interesting to see how we match up with Stony Brook, Monmouth and Albany.

Fordham was clearly the second best team in the league last year imo but finished third. Colgate, with a last minute coaching change, ultimately overcame their early season upheaval to push past the Rams at the finish line in Hamilton. I simply have no faith in a Conlin coached team to win games/moments that matter.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Who beats Holy Cross?

Likely Buffalo but Harvard and Yale definitely have a chance. Honestly, I think 9-2 is perhaps more likely than 10-1. However, I do think they will be better than last year thus the chance to improve from 9-2 to 10-1. Buffalo is much better than UConn was in 2021 and Harvard and Yale have just as much if not more talent than HC. With that said, the Crusaders have the edge at coach and experience/clout heading into the season...

[MR. CHICKEN]

Likely Buffalo but Harvard and Yale definitely have a chance. Honestly, I think 9-2 is perhaps more likely than 10-1. However, I do think they will be better than last year thus the chance to improve from 9-2 to 10-1. Buffalo is much better than UConn was in 2021 and Harvard and Yale have just as much if not more talent than HC. With that said, the Crusaders have the edge at coach and experience/clout heading into the season...

......YALE/COLGATE/HARVARD......DIRECTLAH AFTERAH...DUH BULLS......xeekx....BRYANT NEAR END UH SEASON......AWK!

[Doc QB]

Likely Buffalo but Harvard and Yale definitely have a chance. Honestly, I think 9-2 is perhaps more likely than 10-1. However, I do think they will be better than last year thus the chance to improve from 9-2 to 10-1. Buffalo is much better than UConn was in 2021 and Harvard and Yale have just as much if not more talent than HC. With that said, the Crusaders have the edge at coach and experience/clout heading into the season...

HC will drop a few OOC games. Yale beats HC. Check out their football alumni blog, with a report from Reno touting 23 fifth year seniors. Not sure how many actually contribute, but I doubt they bring back that many without them being relevant players on the two deep. How many 5th years does HC have? Probably could count them on one hand, have fingers to spare, like much of the rest of the PL.

While I am personally not ready to anoint the Chesney-Crusaders competitive nationally, they are likely the class of the PL. But that just doesnt say much these days (tallest midget?). Time for them to win all the OOC games, build on their successes last year, give them the crown they will have earned, show in the playoffs, and hope the rest of the league takes notice and ups their game, too.

The Lehigh board is as quiet as I have ever seen it. Most posts one response in thread, about a transfer. No juice, no enthusiasm, nothing. Not sure if its a Gilmore thing, smoldering apathy, something. While we have some decent players, no game changers on offense, and a fairly pedestrian staff with a fair amount of turnover. I share Southsider's lack of optimism, and I've been going to games since the late 70's as a kid, my dad a fb alum from late 60's, I played there in early 90's, been connected to program for several decades and this is as bad as its ever been in my time.

If the wealthy of the P5 create super conferences, you will just have a smaller true I-A/FBS/whatever, maybe some smaller P5 and G5 will become some type of I-AA/FCS, the I-AA/FCS stalwarts become a sort of D-II of pre-1978 I-AA...some move up, some dont. Some D-II move up, some dont. D3 stays the same. In the end, you'll still have four subdivisions just with some shuffling, and the superconf FBS being rich akin to the 60's with no scholarship caps.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth just announced a new president this morning. She's currently president at Barnard.

Happily, it appears that she enjoys sports and can be expected to support our athletic department.

Notes from the Field | Barnard Magazine (https://barnard.edu/magazine/summer-2019/notes-field)

We have had presidents in the past who--whatever other strengths they brought to the table--really did not view athletics as an important part of the college experience.

[caribbeanhen]

Likely Buffalo but Harvard and Yale definitely have a chance. Honestly, I think 9-2 is perhaps more likely than 10-1. However, I do think they will be better than last year thus the chance to improve from 9-2 to 10-1. Buffalo is much better than UConn was in 2021 and Harvard and Yale have just as much if not more talent than HC. With that said, the Crusaders have the edge at coach and experience/clout heading into the season...

Harvard crushed Holy Cross last year but ok, that was last year

[CHIP72]

Holy Cross finally announced the start times to its home games today, so all Patriot League teams have set start times for all of their games excluding any games against DI-A/FBS opponents after the first three weeks.

Most of the Ivy League teams announced start times for their games back in late June, though Cornell was a bit of a laggard and took an extra 1-2 weeks to post their home game start times. But I'm pretty sure all of the Ivies have set start times now.

[CHIP72]

Which Ivy and PL schools are not represented on Crossports?

I can't recall any posters recently from the following:

Bucknell
Cornell
Columbia
Penn
Princeton
Brown

We could probably include the NEC as that league is also underrepresented big time on here. CCSU has ace but aside from that it's pretty quiet.

The Quakers are one of the teams I follow, but I don't follow them super closely. Part of that is I refuse to pay ESPN twice for the right to watch games, once as part of my cable package and once for the standalone ESPN+ coverage, for something I used to get for paying once via cable and ESPN3. (This does mean I miss not only most Penn games, but also most Lehigh and Lafayette games, as well as at least a few Temple games, all of which sucks. But I REALLY don't like the idea of paying ESPN twice.)

[CHIP72]

In many ways Rutgers is a CAA team on roids at this point and it shows. The Scarlet Knights could have survived just fine playing a steady diet of Princeton, Lehigh, Delaware, Penn, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Colgate, Yale, Army etc. if the school committed to academics and regional athletics. I guess the same could be said for Temple, UMass, Uconn, Boston College and maybe Pitt and Syracuse?

The Northeast is one region of the country where the traditional college football model focused on geographical relevancy and the fundamental concept of the student-athlete has the capacity to catch on.

I have about a decade age-wise on you GLTUOwl (I started following sports in general in the 1981/1982 time frame), but in Eastern college football terms it is an important decade because the late 1970s and 1980s was probably the glory days of major Eastern college football, at least after World War II when college football started becoming more national. Back then, Penn State (who I rooted for back in the 1980s and early 1990s, with my fandom petering out within 5 years of the Nittany Lions joining the Big Ten, a move I hated) played six fellow major Eastern indies - Pitt, Syracuse, West Virginia, Boston College, Rutgers, and Temple - basically every year, and those other schools also tended to play most/all of that group of 7 schools every year too. Obviously it helped each of them fill their schedules, but many of these schools had significant rivalries with one another. As you likely know, it was a big deal to Bruce Arians when Temple knocked off Pitt in 1984, and the Owls' games with PSU and Rutgers always attracted interest. With Penn State, obviously their rivalry with Pitt was big, but they had that historical, Rip Engle (PSU) vs Ben Schwarzwalder (SU) rivalry in the 1950s and 1960s that started picking up steam again in the mid-1980s, and West Virginia, a perennially good team in the Don Nehlen years, was also a significant rival. Boston College injected themselves into the mix in the Doug Flutie years. It was a great time for Eastern college football.

Penn State was the axis of that universe, but if the 24-32 really big college programs leave everyone behind (and if that happens, it is possible only Penn State will be in the "big program" group from the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic), a conference with those teams, schools like Connecticut and maybe Massachusetts and/or Buffalo, and schools further south like Maryland, Virginia Tech, and (if they'd agreeable to moving) Virginia could work. That's the conference (plus Penn State) I would have loved to have seen form sometime in the last 20 years. And such a league probably would have a reasonably strong academic focus as well as a pretty strong regional cohesiveness.

[crusader11]

How many 5th years does HC have? Probably could count them on one hand, have fingers to spare, like much of the rest of the PL.

14.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Likely Buffalo but Harvard and Yale definitely have a chance. Honestly, I think 9-2 is perhaps more likely than 10-1. However, I do think they will be better than last year thus the chance to improve from 9-2 to 10-1. Buffalo is much better than UConn was in 2021 and Harvard and Yale have just as much if not more talent than HC. With that said, the Crusaders have the edge at coach and experience/clout heading into the season...

.....OVERAH TIM MURPHY.....??......YER KIDDIN' HUH......??.......BRAWK!

[Doc QB]

14.
That's a essentially a whole class, which is pretty significant.
And if HC separates itself from PL, wins the Ivy OOC match ups, gets a W beyond round one in playoffs, it will show a large 5th year class, can put a veteran PL squad closer to par with the CAA.
Now, if the PL could get their collective $h!t together and allow 5th years that are not just because of COVID years, that would be great for the league.
Otherwise, when we return to normal with no further COVID extended eligibility, the potential blip we see from HC this year, will disappear.

[The Boogie Down]

It would be a VERY disappointing year imo if we aren't a clear second with a record that can get us an at large. We are absolutely loaded as much as any year I've been a Fordham fan. Only HC should be clear favorites over us (obviously) in the PL but our OOC skid is very strong and it will be interesting to see how we match up with Stony Brook, Monmouth and Albany.

It's almost like you don't know Conlin can't coach. xchinscratchx

[NY Crusader 2010]

That's a essentially a whole class, which is pretty significant.
And if HC separates itself from PL, wins the Ivy OOC match ups, gets a W beyond round one in playoffs, it will show a large 5th year class, can put a veteran PL squad closer to par with the CAA.
Now, if the PL could get their collective $h!t together and allow 5th years that are not just because of COVID years, that would be great for the league.
Otherwise, when we return to normal with no further COVID extended eligibility, the potential blip we see from HC this year, will disappear.

I actually thought the COVID year rule would hurt us (both HC and the PL) because we don't have grad programs and most guys at an academically-forward school are going to jump at the opportunity to get a free year of grad school while continuing to play DI football elsewhere. Obviously, we had 14 individuals continue to go all in on what Chesney has built at Holy Cross. Let's see if we can 4-peat and beat Harvard and Yale. We haven't defeated the Crimson in Cambridge since 2000.

[caribbeanhen]

.....OVERAH TIM MURPHY.....??......YER KIDDIN' HUH......??.......BRAWK!

Chesney is the real deal Mr C, was in the running for the Hens job just as Murphy was 20 years ago but both got beat out by ex Hen players

I hope Ryan Carty can have the same success that KC Keeler did at Delaware

[MUHAWKS]

It would be a VERY disappointing year imo if we aren't a clear second with a record that can get us an at large. We are absolutely loaded as much as any year I've been a Fordham fan. Only HC should be clear favorites over us (obviously) in the PL but our OOC skid is very strong and it will be interesting to see how we match up with Stony Brook, Monmouth and Albany.

I am more nervous of the game against you guys than ANY of the CAA games. Not b/c I do not respect the CAA teams or think they are good but b/c now that we are CAA we are "expected" to beat you which is fair but I agree Fordham has a talented squad. Last year was a tough gage b/c it was so early in the year but I think we controlled that game and were the better team. I say that without bias. We had it first and goal on the 3 to go up 28-10 late in the 3rd and our QB threw what was the most shockingly bizarre pass directly to a Ram defender in the end zone! Talk about unforced error. Momentum changed next thing you know its 21-16 and we end up holding you off 26-23 but we ran for 200 yards and you guys were one dimensional. With that said your offense should be good, the QB ad WR's are scary and like I said the game worries me. IMO we will be much better than last year but I assume so will you. Home opener for us. a game we should win but like I said I see THIS game as one I am more worried about than most b/c no one really expects much from us anyway in the CAA this year..

[DFW HOYA]

This is my 22nd season watching Patriot League football and 2022 may be among the lowest I have in interest or in hope--not solely for Georgetown (more on that below) but the league in general.

A decade ago, the move to scholarships was seen as a means to elevate the PL to FCS prominence. "This is just one more tool, if used appropriately and strategically, to be more competitive (with other conferences) and to help our student-athletes succeed," said PL commissioner Carolyn Schlie Femovich in 2012, Unsaid, it was a means to keep Fordham in the league since they were already offering them anyway. Of course, the law of unintended consequences took hold--the Ivy upped their financial aid to match any full PL offer, the NEC has passed the PL by picking off the low band PL kids, and the PL's competitiveness outside league play has plummeted. In 2012, the last full season without scholarships, the PL was a combined .476 out of conference. In the last four seasons combined, it's just .239.

What's worse, perhaps, is that there is little guidance and schools are going in seven different directions. Good times, sure, at Holy Cross, at least until Tim Murphy retires at Harvard and someone places a call to Bob Chesney. Fordham, with a top-five FCS budget ($7.3 million in 2019-20), is still a combined 14-23 over the last four seasons. (Bob Chesney is the only PL coach above .500 at their current school.) Colgate is loading up on guarantee games (Stanford, Syracuse, Colorado), while averaging just 2,042 a game last season. Its last two home games drew 2,817 combined.

Lehigh and Lafayette are arguably in the worst collective rut for their programs in 60 years. Which is more sobering: Lafayette hasn't had a full winning season since 2009, or that Lehigh hasn't since 2016? Of course, the latter is more sobering, given that Lehigh is the bell cow of this league. Rivalry #157 didn't sell out in 2021, and may not this year, either.

Bucknell hasn't posted a full winning season since 2014, and its last four seasons are a combined 7-30. Did scholarships make any difference? No.

Georgetown takes it traditional seat at the bottom of the PL rankings at this week's media day call. Georgetown returns a handful of starters from a two win team--those two wins were Delaware State and Bucknell. (I don't know for sure who is returning because Georgetown lost a reported 16 players to the portal and hasn't even posted a 2022 roster...and it's late July.) It's getting tougher, not easier for Sgarlata to recruit, and that's compounded by Georgetown's inability to match Ivy financial aid and the lack of any on-field success to sell to recruits. (That, and no hope for scholarships.) He's won 23 games in seven years, his predecessor Kevin Kelly won just 24 in eight. But if Sgarlata can't win in this league given the roadblocks in his way, who can?

Where does this league find a common direction, or is the home office content that Colgate or Fordham hasn't called the CAA or Georgetown hasn't decided to go independent? The PL seems rudderless at this point, top to bottom. That's the league in 2022: 12 weeks, lots of losses, a ticket for Holy Cross to play at URI Thanksgiving weekend.

[Sader87]

URI at Fitton you mean....

[bonarae]

Georgetown takes it traditional seat at the bottom of the PL rankings at this week's media day call. Georgetown returns a handful of starters from a two win team--those two wins were Delaware State and Bucknell. (I don't know for sure who is returning because Georgetown lost a reported 16 players to the portal and hasn't even posted a 2022 roster...and it's late July.) It's getting tougher, not easier for Sgarlata to recruit, and that's compounded by Georgetown's inability to match Ivy financial aid and the lack of any on-field success to sell to recruits. (That, and no hope for scholarships.) He's won 23 games in seven years, his predecessor Kevin Kelly won just 24 in eight. But if Sgarlata can't win in this league given the roadblocks in his way, who can?

Where does this league find a common direction, or is the home office content that Colgate or Fordham hasn't called the CAA or Georgetown hasn't decided to go independent? The PL seems rudderless at this point, top to bottom. That's the league in 2022: 12 weeks, lots of losses, a ticket for Holy Cross to play at URI Thanksgiving weekend.

OK, but why wasn't Georgetown invited to the PFL after it left the MAAC? That could've changed the Hoyas football-wise. Or given their lack of an updated roster, are the Hoyas ready to suspend their 2022 season?

[DFW HOYA]

OK, but why wasn't Georgetown invited to the PFL after it left the MAAC? That could've changed the Hoyas football-wise.

They were not interested. What people don't realize is that the PFL schools may not offer athletic grants but offer merit aid via "academic" scholarships, which Georgetown strictly doesn't, so they would be in a mess competing with schools offering a free ride for a 3.5 GPA, where 3.5 doesn't get you near the door at Georgetown.

[Sader87]

GTown was never really ready to compete football-wise at the D1 level after they dropped major college football in 1950 or so. Just no "institutional history" of playing at this level of college football for about 50 years or so. The same could be said for Fordham but at least they are trying to get up to speed so to speak: offering scholarships, putting $$$ into the program etc.

Holy Cross may no longer play at the FBS/1-A/University division level etc....but it has continually played at the D1 level and having done so has more support both institutionally and from its alumni-base who have followed HC football from the early 20th Century to today. Georgetown really has nevah had that and I think the school really doesn't know how to support its football program. My $.02 on a hot July night anyway. xdrunkyx

[DFW HOYA]

GTown was never really ready to compete football-wise at the D1 level after they dropped major college football in 1950 or so. Just no "institutional history" of playing at this level of college football for about 50 years or so. The same could be said for Fordham but at least they are trying to get up to speed so to speak: offering scholarships, putting $$$ into the program etc.

Holy Cross may no longer play at the FBS/1-A/University division level etc....but it has continually played at the D1 level and having done so has more support both institutionally and from its alumni-base who have followed HC football from the early 20th Century to today. Georgetown really has nevah had that and I think the school really doesn't know how to support its football program. My $.02 on a hot July night anyway. xdrunkyx

Strange as it sounds, money is not the issue. The PL schools are plowing millions into FCS football and it has been, for most, a failure.

The issue is organizational--GU placed football on an aspirational "Ivy League" track despite the fact it can't compete for Ivy recruits, and does not have the admissions leverage to recruit within the PL model. Playing outside the PL/IL sphere requires a fundamental reboot on what the program has been built around since at least 1993 and arguably since 1970. Placing Georgetown in the Big South or MEAC is not even a consideration.

That said, unless someone really calls the question, the PL won't see a problem in changing anything. Had Fordham not threatened to leave in 2012, there would be no scholarships today.

[Sader87]

Strange as it sounds, money is not the issue. The PL schools are plowing millions into FCS football and it has been, for most, a failure.

The issue is organizational--GU places has football on an aspirational "Ivy League" track despite the fact it can't compete for Ivy recruits, and does not have the leverage to recruit within the PL model. Playing outside this PL/IL sphere requires a fundamental reboot on what the program has been built around since at least 1993 and arguably since 1970. That said, unless someone really threatens to go, they don't see a problem in changing anything. Had Fordham not threatened to leave in 2012, there would be no scholarships today.

Agreed, but my point stands....the Holy Cross community in totality "cares" about football and its success....even as much as we've shot ourselves in the foot athlectically ovah the years. I don't think you see that same commitment with Georgetown with regards to its football program. Most GTown alums above 40 years of age or so have no history of having gone to GTown and followed its football program like Holy Cross grads of the same age have of following HC football and playing BC, Army, Syracuse, the New England Ivies etc did. It becomes part of the fabric of the school....football weekends etc...GTown largely didn't have that from 1950-2000 and it's hard to establish that when most alumni have no experience of that.

[Sader87]

All this being said, a strong Georgetown football program would be great for the PL and FCS football in general.

You guys need to get your ***** together.

[bonarae]

All this being said, a strong Georgetown football program would be great for the PL and FCS football in general.

You guys need to get your ***** together.

Or they may end up being another Occidental, who literally fell short of the roster requirements in the program's last few years and eventually dropped the sport in 2019.

[Go Green]

Or they may end up being another Occidental, who literally fell short of the roster requirements in the program's last few years and eventually dropped the sport in 2019.

Georgetown just built a new football stadium. They aren't going anywhere...

[crusader11]

Georgetown just built a new football stadium. They aren't going anywhere...

They did?

[caribbeanhen]

This is my 22nd season watching Patriot League football and 2022 may be among the lowest I have in interest or in hope--not solely for Georgetown (more on that below) but the league in general.

A decade ago, the move to scholarships was seen as a means to elevate the PL to FCS prominence. "This is just one more tool, if used appropriately and strategically, to be more competitive (with other conferences) and to help our student-athletes succeed," said PL commissioner Carolyn Schlie Femovich in 2012, Unsaid, it was a means to keep Fordham in the league since they were already offering them anyway. Of course, the law of unintended consequences took hold--the Ivy upped their financial aid to match any full PL offer, the NEC has passed the PL by picking off the low band PL kids, and the PL's competitiveness outside league play has plummeted. In 2012, the last full season without scholarships, the PL was a combined .476 out of conference. In the last four seasons combined, it's just .239.

What's worse, perhaps, is that there is little guidance and schools are going in seven different directions. Good times, sure, at Holy Cross, at least until Tim Murphy retires at Harvard and someone places a call to Bob Chesney. Fordham, with a top-five FCS budget ($7.3 million in 2019-20), is still a combined 14-23 over the last four seasons. (Bob Chesney is the only PL coach above .500 at their current school.) Colgate is loading up on guarantee games (Stanford, Syracuse, Colorado), while averaging just 2,042 a game last season. Its last two home games drew 2,817 combined.

Lehigh and Lafayette are arguably in the worst collective rut for their programs in 60 years. Which is more sobering: Lafayette hasn't had a full winning season since 2009, or that Lehigh hasn't since 2016? Of course, the latter is more sobering, given that Lehigh is the bell cow of this league. Rivalry #157 didn't sell out in 2021, and may not this year, either.

Bucknell hasn't posted a full winning season since 2014, and its last four seasons are a combined 7-30. Did scholarships make any difference? No.

Georgetown takes it traditional seat at the bottom of the PL rankings at this week's media day call. Georgetown returns a handful of starters from a two win team--those two wins were Delaware State and Bucknell. (I don't know for sure who is returning because Georgetown lost a reported 16 players to the portal and hasn't even posted a 2022 roster...and it's late July.) It's getting tougher, not easier for Sgarlata to recruit, and that's compounded by Georgetown's inability to match Ivy financial aid and the lack of any on-field success to sell to recruits. (That, and no hope for scholarships.) He's won 23 games in seven years, his predecessor Kevin Kelly won just 24 in eight. But if Sgarlata can't win in this league given the roadblocks in his way, who can?

Where does this league find a common direction, or is the home office content that Colgate or Fordham hasn't called the CAA or Georgetown hasn't decided to go independent? The PL seems rudderless at this point, top to bottom. That's the league in 2022: 12 weeks, lots of losses, a ticket for Holy Cross to play at URI Thanksgiving weekend.

this is an excellent breakdown on the Plummeting Patriot League. The only thing that I don’t understand is how the NEC passed you by getting low band PL kids... how did this happen?

[Baron Sardonicus]

They were not interested. What people don't realize is that the PFL schools may not offer athletic grants but offer merit aid via "academic" scholarships, which Georgetown strictly doesn't, so they would be in a mess competing with schools offering a free ride for a 3.5 GPA, where 3.5 doesn't get you near the door at Georgetown.

Nonsense. The avg gpa for entering freshmen at three PFL schools is above a 3.9. Only Marist is below a 3.5. Most presidential scholarships are given for a combination of merit and need. They are not anywhere close to full rides, btw.

And which PFL school has no merit aid? The two-time defending champs.

[Doc QB]

Georgetown just built a new football stadium. They aren't going anywhere...
That stadium is for mens lacrosse, make no mistake.

[Doc QB]

I actually thought the COVID year rule would hurt us (both HC and the PL) because we don't have grad programs and most guys at an academically-forward school are going to jump at the opportunity to get a free year of grad school while continuing to play DI football elsewhere. Obviously, we had 14 individuals continue to go all in on what Chesney has built at Holy Cross. Let's see if we can 4-peat and beat Harvard and Yale. We haven't defeated the Crimson in Cambridge since 2000.
NYSader, I love this point. Grad programs are NOT necessary to have fifth year players. A willingness to allow students more than 8 semesters (are you listening Bucknell), double majors, minors, local internships, etc can extend academic careers beyond four years. A great majority of my Yankee conf friends from high school (now CAA obviously) all played five years, and really just stayed an extra semester, som needed to graduate in December, most just took classes to be eligible and strap it up one more season. Many of those guys had a degree, had graduated, stayed for one more shot on the field. It is not at all uncommon to take more than four years to graduate. Doing so at a PL school, really attack what those schools have to offer, maximize what that scholarship can afford one if you are a driven student athlete in 4-5 yrs.

A grad school does not give a school an unfair advantage to do this, but can make it more simple. Unless you consider, the same way one school may have an MBA program (obviously, a grad year) and another may not...the same way one may have engineering and another does not...one school is located in a city (DC, NYC) versus central PA...the same way one has an indoor facility and another (the rest really) does not...one has league titles another has none...they all go into the calculus of a college decision. They are not really advantages inherent to a school, they are the unique elements of a particular school. No school has all of those elements. Not having a grad school should not be a reason to not have fifth year players. Presidents and ADs just need to let it happen, watch the league improve, CAA type kids may not look down at us and choose us, see schools maybe now entertain us a expansion targets. The PL wont be at risk of becoming football factory, just as Yale wont with a massive fifth year class. Just takes the PL brass recognize this and evolve.

[DFW HOYA]

And which PFL school has no merit aid? The two-time defending champs.

https://www.sandiego.edu/one-stop/financial-aid/scholarships/university-scholarships.php

[Baron Sardonicus]

No, not USD. Playoff followers know I'm talking about the Davidson Wildcats . how'd they build success after 10 straight losing seasons...in a league full of dullards bought with merit aid?

Incidentally, I'm not saying Georgetown should be in the PFL. The Hoyas should continue on their own path. Whatever that is.

[DFW HOYA]

Certainly not all are in football, but it is a merit aid school.

https://www.davidson.edu/admission-and-financial-aid/financial-aid/scholarships

[FUBeAR]

Certainly not all are in football, but it is a merit aid school.

https://www.davidson.edu/admission-and-financial-aid/financial-aid/scholarshipsYes…Davidson’s “offer” to FUBeAR Jr. (a few years ago now) was going to make cost of attendance there comparable to in-state costs in University of Georgia (state) schools.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Certainly not any are in football, but it is a merit aid school.

Fixed it for you.

[CHIP72]

Lehigh and Lafayette are arguably in the worst collective rut for their programs in 60 years. Which is more sobering: Lafayette hasn't had a full winning season since 2009, or that Lehigh hasn't since 2016? Of course, the latter is more sobering, given that Lehigh is the bell cow of this league. Rivalry #157 didn't sell out in 2021, and may not this year, either.

Lehigh and Lafayette didn't come particularly close to selling out Rivalry #154 (at LC) or Rivalry #155 (at LU) either. (I attended both games.)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh and Lafayette didn't come particularly close to selling out Rivalry #154 (at LC) or Rivalry #155 (at LU) either. (I attended both games.)

I haven't attended a Lehigh-Lafayette game since 2016 which broke a 20 year streak dating back to missing the 1996 contest in Easton. In hindsight I should have went to Coen's last game in 2018. At best there's a 50/50 chance I will attend this year given how awful I anticipate the Hawks to be. Once Gilmore is gone my hope will once again blossom. Who knows....maybe I will be working at a PL institution in a year or two.....

With Lehigh and Temple being in the dumps and the state of "big time" college football (Notre Dame) heading down a road I have little interest in I have never felt so ho-hum entering a season in my life. Usually right now I am geeking out trying to immerse myself in all things college football. I use to wear out the preview magazines trying to gather as much info as I could when I was younger.....

[NY Crusader 2010]

I haven't attended a Lehigh-Lafayette game since 2016 which broke a 20 year streak dating back to missing the 1996 contest in Easton. In hindsight I should have went to Coen's last game in 2018. At best there's a 50/50 chance I will attend this year given how awful I anticipate the Hawks to be. Once Gilmore is gone my hope will once again blossom. Who knows....maybe I will be working at a PL institution in a year or two.....

With Lehigh and Temple being in the dumps and the state of "big time" college football (Notre Dame) heading down a road I have little interest in I have never felt so ho-hum entering a season in my life. Usually right now I am geeking out trying to immerse myself in all things college football. I use to wear out the preview magazines trying to gather as much info as I could when I was younger.....

I used to spend hours and hours during my summer vacations reading through Street & Smith and, later on, Phil Steele. I would have every DI team's schedule pretty much memorized by now. And I used to use the magazines to input player names into the team rosters in the NCAA Football EA Sports video game -- always a major August project.

Hopefully the Lehigh team we saw late October onward will be more predictive of the 2022 edition, as opposed to the team that scored 9 points in 6 games to start the season. I trust Gilmore to resurrect a dumpster job and get you guys competitive again. The reason Gilmore was a bad hire for LEHIGH is because when the bar is regularly winning championships, he's not the guy. Not a big game coach, unfortunately. And I mean that in the sense that he'll have his team ready to compete against heavily favored opponents. And he's proven he can get his teams to be competitive in those games, he just doesn't win them.

[Go Green]

Where does this league find a common direction, or is the home office content that Colgate or Fordham hasn't called the CAA or Georgetown hasn't decided to go independent? The PL seems rudderless at this point, top to bottom. That's the league in 2022: 12 weeks, lots of losses, a ticket for Holy Cross to play at URI Thanksgiving weekend.

Having gone through this thread again, I couldn't help but wonder. If there are issues with all the potential FCS leagues for Georgetown, what would possibly be gained by the Hoyas if they went independent?

I mean, they'd still be playing pretty much the same schools anyway....

[DFW HOYA]

Having gone through this thread again, I couldn't help but wonder. If there are issues with all the potential FCS leagues for Georgetown, what would possibly be gained by the Hoyas if they went independent?

I wrote about this extensively in 2012, excerpted below. At least three PL schools, maybe four, would drop Georgetown the moment the Hoyas went independent. Ivy interest would dwindle. Recruit-wise, they would have no streaming media (ESPN+ isn't picking up independents) and the November schedule would be a wasteland when everyone else is in league play.

Options in 2012 (net of the Big South, but use the NEC excerpt and replace it with "Big South" instead of NEC):

1. Stay in the Patriot League. "Georgetown could maintain a need-based or ultra-low scholarship team in a 60-scholarship PL. Over time, the attrition would erode recruiting, send coaches looking elsewhere, and just steamroll the schedule. In short, Georgetown football 2015 might look a lot like 2002 or 2003: a few non-conference games with a chance of winning, but little else...."

2. Join the NEC. "Many of the NEC programs are familiar to Georgetown fans (Duquesne, Wagner, Monmouth, St. Francis, Sacred Heart, etc.) but none carry much in the way of fan interest or peer institution relationships. The NEC offers a full schedule, no restrictions on recruiting (as does the Patriot) and an autobid to the tournament just like the Patriot. Longer term, however, the NEC will see the Patriot’s move to 60 and follow suit."

3. Join The Pioneer League. "Georgetown would have to drop all of its packaged aid to athletes and fly to games with such schools as San Diego, Jacksonville, Drake, and Butler. Outside Marist or Davidson , none would draw any interest from recruits or fans, and Georgetown football would further lapse into irrelevancy with a schedule of teams like Morehead State, Stetson, or Mercer. Because these schools are often in remote areas vis a vis the rest of the subdivision, the PFL is more a scheduling arrangement than a true conference, and it’s something Georgetown would do well to avoid as a long term home for its program."

4. Play as a Division I Independent: "By 2013, there will be just two eastern non-scholarship teams outside the Ivy League, and both of them will be in conference play by late October, leaving Georgetown to fill its November schedules with schools below Division I or needing to travel across the country to play one-off games with North Dakota State or Southeast Missouri, looking for an easy win. In fact, by 2013 there are scheduled to be no other independents in the subdivision, as the current five all have conference ties by then. If Georgetown doesn’t mind playing the minimum six I-AA games and filling up the rest of the slate with schools like Lock Haven, Ursinus or Gallaudet, future coaches and recruits will inevitably see the program as having no direction or purpose and a steep decline will follow."

5. Ivy+ 1: "Georgetown University and the Ivy Group [could] arrange a multi-year (10-15 year) agreement whereby Georgetown is an official “scheduling partner” in football without membership privileges or a place in the standings. The league, which traditionally plays ten straight games from weeks 3-12 in the season, agrees to begin play a week early and each Ivy school incorporates a game with Georgetown over the first eight weeks of the season, weeks 2-9, leaving the remaining three weeks reserved for traditional in-league rivalries like Harvard-Yale or Cornell-Penn...What does it buy the Ivies? An insurance policy against the decline of available Eastern opponents willing to compete at this level." (In hindsight, the IL has less than zero interest in this.)

The full column:
https://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2012/02/opportunity.html

[Fordham]

DFW - amazing that you wrote that in 2012 and the option to stay in the PL was the path chosen, yet you’ve arguably been more competitive now than you were then. Certainly says more about the rest of the PL than Gtown imo but still interesting

[DFW HOYA]

DFW - amazing that you wrote that in 2012 and the option to stay in the PL was the path chosen, yet you’ve arguably been more competitive now than you were then. Certainly says more about the rest of the PL than Gtown imo but still interesting

In the last eight years since scholarships were added, Georgetown is 25-62. In the previous eight seasons before 2013, it was 26-61.

Georgetown looks more competitive under Rob Sgarlata then they did under Kevin Kelly, where blowouts were more common, so the games are closer, but not the results.

[Go Green]

Georgetown looks more competitive under Rob Sgarlata then they did under Kevin Kelly, where blowouts were more common, so the games are closer, but not the results.

This pretty much describes current Dartmouth coach Buddy Teevens' tenure at Tulane as well. He had a lot of competitive losses too. Unfortunately, not enough wins....

[crusader11]

In the last eight years since scholarships were added, Georgetown is 25-62. In the previous eight seasons before 2013, it was 26-61.

Georgetown looks more competitive under Rob Sgarlata then they did under Kevin Kelly, where blowouts were more common, so the games are closer, but not the results.

Georgetown has one season above .500 this century, and Kelly owns it.

Under Sgarlata, Georgetown is an average of -9 points in 42 games in the PL. Under Kelly, it was -13.7. Kelly was 10-35 in the PL, while Sgarlata is currently 9-33. Very possible that through 45 games, Kelly has a better record.

The PL was better top-to-bottom when Kelly was coaching compared to Sgarlata.

[CenMEBlackBearFan]

Had to google Buddy Teevens knowing he coached at UMaine 85 and 86. Was surprised he went from Maine to Dartmouth to Tulane to Stanford back to Darmouth where he has beeen 9-1 for 3 years in a row. Looks to me like he is on quite a run now!!!

[Go Green]

Had to google Buddy Teevens knowing he coached at UMaine 85 and 86. Was surprised he went from Maine to Dartmouth to Tulane to Stanford back to Darmouth where he has beeen 9-1 for 3 years in a row. Looks to me like he is on quite a run now!!!

Fortunately for Dartmouth, he's 65 now and probably too old to get poached away again.

:)

[crusader11]

This may be a bit of a hot take, but Jim Yong Kim is just as responsible (if not more) for Dartmouth's football resurgence as Buddy Teevens.

[Go Green]

This may be a bit of a hot take, but Jim Yong Kim is just as responsible (if not more) for Dartmouth's football resurgence as Buddy Teevens.

Kim definitely helped. But he happened to show up pretty much at the time that Dartmouth football got its act together. Within a year (either way) of Kim's arrival, Dartmouth

(1) built a new football varsity house. The old one was very outdated. The new one rivaled or exceeded the locker/weight rooms of some BCS schools that were looking at the same recruits we were.

(2) hired two excellent assistant coaches who still are on staff and who have produced numerous All-Ivy players. Coaches Dobes and Clark were respectively let go in coaching shakeups at Princeton and Yale. Teevens was more than happy to offer them landing spots. The rest is history.

(3) got rid of a killer nonconference schedule that saw us go 0-3 or (at best) 1-2 out of conference every year. We signed 15-year deals with Colgate, Holy Cross, and UNH at a time when all three of them were highly competitive teams. For a team trying to get back on its feet, playing tough opponents to open the season every year was a recipe for disaster.

Kim was definitely a great cheerleader and that certainly makes a difference. But I'd put the above three as more impactful items for Dartmouth's turnaround.

[KPSUL]

I've tuned into this thread a few times, hoping to get some insight into strength of the Ivy teams for the upcoming season. So far all I've seen is rather vague statements indicating that Harvard may be weaker than the were in 2021, Yale stronger. So any thoughts on the following:

How does Princeton look? Were they hit hard by graduation or transfers?

I looked over Dartmouth's roster, the only Ivy league team I really know anything about. 5 or 6 guys found new homes through the portal - including perhaps their top defensive and offensive player. Did these guys jump ship, or had they exhausted Ivy eligibility with one year left of NCAA? What's the impact of losing these players?

So what are the factors impacting a possible Harvard decline and a possible Yale rise?

What's the possibility of a significant break-through year for Columbia or a return to prominence for Penn ?

Are Cornell and Brown as non-competitive as I blindly assume they are?

[KPSUL]

(3) got rid of a killer nonconference schedule that saw us go 0-3 or (at best) 1-2 out of conference every year. We signed 15-year deals with Colgate, Holy Cross, and UNH at a time when all three of them were highly competitive teams. For a team trying to get back on its feet, playing tough opponents to open the season every year was a recipe for disaster.



While it may have been discouraging at the start, I'm wondering if scheduling tougher OOC opponents wasn't a significant factor in the program improving?

[Go Green]

I've tuned into this thread a few times, hoping to get some insight into strength of the Ivy teams for the upcoming season. So far all I've seen is rather vague statements indicating that Harvard may be weaker than the were in 2021, Yale stronger. So any thoughts on the following:

How does Princeton look? Were they hit hard by graduation or transfers?

I looked over Dartmouth's roster, the only Ivy league team I really know anything about. 5 or 6 guys found new homes through the portal - including perhaps their top defensive and offensive player. Did these guys jump ship, or had they exhausted Ivy eligibility with one year left of NCAA? What's the impact of losing these players?

So what are the factors impacting a possible Harvard decline and a possible Yale rise?

What's the possibility of a significant break-through year for Columbia or a return to prominence for Penn ?

Are Cornell and Brown as non-competitive as I blindly assume they are?

if all of Dartmouth's eligible players were returning, we would likely have one of our best teams (or at least best defenses) ever. But... several guys opted to begin their graduate studies elsewhere. Hard to blame them.

For defense, the losses may be sustainable because we have talented guys coming up behind the guys we're losing. So I think we will be fine on defense.

On offense, two (interrelated) questions. First, are we going to play Nick Howard at QB full time, or try to platoon him again with another "throwing" QB? Much of that may depend on the second question--can the O-Line develop quickly? We had a lot of losses on O-Line and will likely be relying on inexperienced players this Fall.

I'm not as attuned to the other teams as I should be. My not-very-informed opinion is that

1) HYP will all be competitive as usual.

2) Penn is going nowhere until they find a quarterback who can scare people

3) Columbia will be decent, but probably end up being an also-ran in the race

4) Cornell is going nowhere and its hard to see any daylight coming.

5) Brown is likely a year away. Brown's recruiting class last year and the current class (i.e., high school kids) appeared significantly better than past classes in terms of getting guys with other FBS/quality FCS offers. But they were heavily reliant on EJ Perry last season, and he's gone. So I'd expect Brown to finish at the bottom again in 2022 but better days may be head down the road.

[Go Green]

While it may have been discouraging at the start, I'm wondering if scheduling tougher OOC opponents wasn't a significant factor in the program improving?

Our first winning season of the century was 2010, which also was the first season that we didn't face the Colgate/UNH/Holy Cross run.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I've tuned into this thread a few times, hoping to get some insight into strength of the Ivy teams for the upcoming season. So far all I've seen is rather vague statements indicating that Harvard may be weaker than the were in 2021, Yale stronger. So any thoughts on the following:

How does Princeton look? Were they hit hard by graduation or transfers?

I looked over Dartmouth's roster, the only Ivy league team I really know anything about. 5 or 6 guys found new homes through the portal - including perhaps their top defensive and offensive player. Did these guys jump ship, or had they exhausted Ivy eligibility with one year left of NCAA? What's the impact of losing these players?

So what are the factors impacting a possible Harvard decline and a possible Yale rise?

What's the possibility of a significant break-through year for Columbia or a return to prominence for Penn ?

Are Cornell and Brown as non-competitive as I blindly assume they are?


PRINCETON.......IS 27-3...OVERAH LAST THREE IVY SEASONS!
YALE.................STOP LOSIN' DUH CLOSE ONES!
DARTMOUTH......MACKIE X-FERRED TA UMA$$.....FO' WHATEVERAH REASON!
COLUMBIA....... QB JOE GREEN.....WAS IVY ROOKIE..UH YEAR.......OWNLAH 3 INT's!
HARVAAD..........CHRIS SMITH....TA NOTRA DAMUS/SKYES....TA UCLA!.....DUH BIG BOYS....CHERRY PICKED DUH STARS!
PENN...............QUACKERS 3-7/1-6......GRADUATION CLEANED UP...DUH MESS!
BROWN.............IFIN' ONE TEAM..."DUH BEARS"...CAN BEAT......IT'S....CORNY!
CORNELL..........BIG RED EMBARRASSMENT....WAVY DAVEY ARCHER....GOIN' FO' 9th STRAIGHT LOSIN' SEASON......AWK!

[bonarae]

(3) got rid of a killer nonconference schedule that saw us go 0-3 or (at best) 1-2 out of conference every year. We signed 15-year deals with Colgate, Holy Cross, and UNH at a time when all three of them were highly competitive teams. For a team trying to get back on its feet, playing tough opponents to open the season every year was a recipe for disaster.

Why 15 years?! I prefer shorter-term schedule deals and more diverse schedules, see Big Sky, MVFC, and the Southern FCS teams... xcoffeex

[Go Green]

Why 15 years?! I prefer shorter-term schedule deals and more diverse schedules, see Big Sky, MVFC, and the Southern FCS teams... xcoffeex

The thinking was at the time that some good rivalries with those schools would develop.

Didn't work out that way. When all was said and done, Dartmouth ended up being something like 6-39 out of conference against those three schools over the years.

We've learned our lesson. We now sign short-term home-and-homes with a variety of schools like everyone else.

[Sader87]

]The thinking was at the time that some good rivalries with those schools would develop.[/B]

Didn't work out that way. When all was said and done, Dartmouth ended up being something like 6-39 out of conference against those three schools over the years.

We've learned our lesson. We now sign short-term home-and-homes with a variety of schools like everyone else.

Dartmouth and Holy Cross had a good football rivalry....they have played 80 times over the years, near annually fron 1942-2018. Big Green holds a 40-37-3 edge in the series.

Hope these two fine instituions start playing each other again soon.

https://dartmouthsports.com/sports/football/opponent-history/holy-cross/21

[Go Green]

Dartmouth and Holy Cross had a good football rivalry....they have played 80 times over the years, near annually fron 1942-2018. Big Green holds a 40-37-3 edge in the series.

Hope these two fine instituions start playing each other again soon.

https://dartmouthsports.com/sports/football/opponent-history/holy-cross/21

I like Holy Cross a lot, too. I know many agree with me.

The strange thing is that we have several different PL teams on future schedules. Why Holy Cross isn't one of them is a mystery to me....

[caribbeanhen]

I like Holy Cross a lot, too. I know many agree with me.

The strange thing is that we have several different PL teams on future schedules. Why Holy Cross isn't one of them is a mystery to me....

because winning is more important than entertaining us fans with good games

[Ivytalk]

It’s not in me, as a Harvard alumnus, to let a Dartmouth man monopolize an Ivy thread.;)

Harvard is also looking for a new President, as Larry Bacow is stepping down next June. Bacow has had his hands full with the pandemic, having had COVID twice himself, and has been occupied with issues like Harvard’s historical ties to slavery and the race-based admissions lawsuit that will be decided by SCOTUS next year. Athletics have taken a back seat, and most of Harvard’s programs have had middling success during Bacow’s five-year tenure. It remains to be seen whether the university will even seek a president who has an interest in Ivy sports, or whether athletics will be de-emphasized over time. My sense is that Harvard is self-satisfied enough with its 3.25% admissions rate and its status as an academic “opinion leader” that the school can expect continued athletic mediocrity in the near term.

As for Harvard football in ‘22, we’re likely seeing the winding down of Tim Murphy’s admirable career. His last Ivy title came in 2015 (co-champs with Penn and Dartmouth), and he doesn’t seem to have the “fire in the belly” that he once did (with the notable exception of his outburst after Harvard was hosed by the refs in last year’s Princeton game). Whoever follows in Murphy’s footsteps will have a difficult time. I think the Crimson will finish around 6-4: another middle-of-the-pack outcome.

- - - Updated - - -

[Tribe4SF]

It’s not in me, as a Harvard alumnus, to let a Dartmouth man monopolize an Ivy thread.;)

Harvard is also looking for a new President, as Larry Bacow is stepping down next June. Bacow has had his hands full with the pandemic, having had COVID twice himself, and has been occupied with issues like Harvard’s historical ties to slavery and the race-based admissions lawsuit that will be decided by SCOTUS next year. Athletics have taken a back seat, and most of Harvard’s programs have had middling success during Bacow’s five-year tenure. It remains to be seen whether the university will even seek a president who has an interest in Ivy sports, or whether athletics will be de-emphasized over time. My sense is that Harvard is self-satisfied enough with its 3.25% admissions rate and its status as an academic “opinion leader” that the school can expect continued athletic mediocrity in the near term.

As for Harvard football in ‘22, we’re likely seeing the winding down of Tim Murphy’s admirable career. His last Ivy title came in 2015 (co-champs with Penn and Dartmouth), and he doesn’t seem to have the “fire in the belly” that he once did (with the notable exception of his outburst after Harvard was hosed by the refs in last year’s Princeton game). Whoever follows in Murphy’s footsteps will have a difficult time. I think the Crimson will finish around 6-4: another middle-of-the-pack outcome.

- - - Updated - - -

Well just bring your butt back down to Williamsburg where the fire is burning bright again!

[Ivytalk]

Well just bring your butt back down to Williamsburg where the fire is burning bright again!

Hello, Triber! My aunt and uncle have both now passed on to the great Zable in the sky, but their spirits will still occupy those end zone seats. Best of luck to W&M this fall.

[Tribe4SF]

Hello, Triber! My aunt and uncle have both now passed on to the great Zable in the sky, but their spirits will still occupy those end zone seats. Best of luck to W&M this fall.

Sorry to hear they've moved on. Will toast them this season from the Tribe Tavern that now occupies the entire end zone where they used to sit.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I like Holy Cross a lot, too. I know many agree with me.

The strange thing is that we have several different PL teams on future schedules. Why Holy Cross isn't one of them is a mystery to me....

Holy Cross should play Dartmouth and Harvard every year, no exceptions.

[Ivytalk]

Sorry to hear they've moved on. Will toast them this season from the Tribe Tavern that now occupies the entire end zone where they used to sit.

We may find our way to a game anyway. Our daughter and SIL just bought a house in Newport News, so we’ll have plenty of opportunities to visit the area!xnodx

[caribbeanhen]

We may find our way to a game anyway. Our daughter and SIL just bought a house in Newport News, so we’ll have plenty of opportunities to visit the area!xnodx

Anywhere in vicinity of 93 Hopkins St ?

[bulldog10jw]

I like Holy Cross a lot, too. I know many agree with me.

The strange thing is that we have several different PL teams on future schedules. Why Holy Cross isn't one of them is a mystery to me....

Since HC is playing both Yale and Harvard every year until 2028, I believe, maybe they want their other OOC games to be non Ivy.

[Sader87]

Since HC is playing both Yale and Harvard every year until 2028, I believe, maybe they want their other OOC games to be non Ivy.

I have no inside-info, but that could be the case. HC has 5 OOC most years, 6 when 12 game skeds can be played (next in '24 and '25)...the calculus on how those games should be broken down has been debated on Crossports a fair amount. In a 5 game OOC season, I would go: 1 FBS, 2 Ivies, 1 CAA, 1 "wildcard" (NEC, MEAC, Pioneer). In 6 game OOC seasons, I could see a 3rd Ivy...but I think it might be a second FBS game.

[Go...gate]

I am currently watching Rutgers vs Virginia Tech from 1992 on the BTN. The game is being played at the "old" Rutgers Stadium which gives the atmosphere a very unique (?) feel; to say the least. Honestly, it really doesn't translate much different than a Lehigh-Delaware, Lehigh-Lafayette game from that era in terms of facilities, crowd, level of play etc. It's fascinating to see teams/programs evolve (in varying contexts) over the years while others tend to stagnate or remain uncertain of their purpose. In many ways Rutgers is a CAA team on roids at this point and it shows. The Scarlet Knights could have survived just fine playing a steady diet of Princeton, Lehigh, Delaware, Penn, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Colgate, Yale, Army etc. if the school committed to academics and regional athletics. I guess the same could be said for Temple, UMass, Uconn, Boston College and maybe Pitt and Syracuse?

The Northeast is one region of the country where the traditional college football model focused on geographical relevancy and the fundamental concept of the student-athlete has the capacity to catch on.

BTW, Rutgers wins on a prayer pass to the corner of the end zone on the last play of the game, no time left! The fans storm the field! What a day for Rutgers football!!

Excellent post! I was at Rutgers Stadium that day. Outstanding game!

[Ivytalk]

Anywhere in vicinity of 93 Hopkins St ?

Beats me. Is that your ancestral home?

And Harvard opens against Merrimack this year. Crashing the NEC for the first time.

[caribbeanhen]

Beats me. Is that your ancestral home?

And Harvard opens against Merrimack this year. Crashing the NEC for the first time.

Harvard hosting Merrimack is everything thats wrong with the Ivy OOC slate, you should be hosting North Dakota state or Montana...

On that Newport News address, just curious. We’ve met before like this. No family has lived there for about 80 years or so

[DFW HOYA]

And Harvard opens against Merrimack this year. Crashing the NEC for the first time.

Colgate opens the season versus Stanford. Harvard is content with Merrimack.

[bonarae]

Harvard hosting Merrimack is everything thats wrong with the Ivy OOC slate, you should be hosting North Dakota state or Montana...

NDSU is hosting quality scholarship FCS teams in 2023 and 2024 on the first Ivy open date (UCA and Towson). The Griz are filling the first Ivy open dates with a quality D-II in Ferris State in 2023 and a SoCon team in WCU in 2024. How about UC Davis? They are no easy pushover. Their first Ivy open dates in 2023 and 2024 are filled with home games against Utah FCS teams.

I believe the Ivies are left behind when it comes to scheduling in this generation of FCS football; the scholarship teams tend to focus on regional opponents and inter-regional money games. xsighx

[caribbeanhen]

NDSU is hosting quality scholarship FCS teams in 2023 and 2024 on the first Ivy open date (UCA and Towson). The Griz are filling the first Ivy open dates with a quality D-II in Ferris State in 2023 and a SoCon team in WCU in 2024. How about UC Davis? They are no easy pushover. Their first Ivy open dates in 2023 and 2024 are filled with home games against Utah FCS teams.

I believe the Ivies are left behind when it comes to scheduling in this generation of FCS football; the scholarship teams tend to focus on regional opponents and inter-regional money games. xsighx

You’re the scheduling expert, all I know is their OOC games generally lack appeal and don’t do much for FCS football

[Go Green]

Harvard hosting Merrimack is everything thats wrong with the Ivy OOC slate, you should be hosting North Dakota state or Montana...



This is (and has been for quite some time) a Harvard issue, not an Ivy issue.

Dartmouth, Yale, and Princeton have been scheduling reasonably decent OOC opponents. Sure, there's a cupcake here and there. But there are also challenging games, or at least games that were expected to be challenging at the time they were scheduled (Dartmouth ended up playing Colgate and UNH when both were in down seasons). They have also scheduled FBS games.

Harvard... not so much. At best, they'll catch Holy Cross or URI during an upswing. But they don't really intentionally schedule "up."

[bonarae]

You’re the scheduling expert, all I know is their OOC games generally lack appeal and don’t do much for FCS football

This deserves a thread of its own: how can we compare scheduling between: G5 FBS, scholarship FCS (including PL majority), PFL, Georgetown + Ivy League?

[DFW HOYA]

This deserves a thread of its own: how can we compare scheduling between: G5 FBS, scholarship FCS (including PL majority), PFL, Georgetown + Ivy League?

Out of conference...
G5 generally schedules one P5, one G5, one FCS.
Scholarship FCS: One or two FBS, one top level FCS, one mid tier scholarship FCS
Pioneer: One or two Div. II/III teams, one PL/Ivy
Patriot 6: One or two FBS, one top level FCS, 1-2 Ivy
Georgetown (literally its own category): Marist, 1 or 2 Ivy, 1-2 NEC/MEAC. Not a hard and fast rule, but no games beyond 5 hrs on bus.
Ivy: 1-2 Patriot, balance from either NEC or Pioneer

[NY Crusader 2010]

This is (and has been for quite some time) a Harvard issue, not an Ivy issue.

Dartmouth, Yale, and Princeton have been scheduling reasonably decent OOC opponents. Sure, there's a cupcake here and there. But there are also challenging games, or at least games that were expected to be challenging at the time they were scheduled (Dartmouth ended up playing Colgate and UNH when both were in down seasons). They have also scheduled FBS games.

Harvard... not so much. At best, they'll catch Holy Cross or URI during an upswing. But they don't really intentionally schedule "up."

Or San Diego. URI was supposed to be a cupcake for Harvard. Johnnies won the first 2 games somewhere in the ballpark 55-3. And then URI improved and won the last 2 games to split the series. Holy Cross still going for our first win in Cambridge since 2000.

[crusader11]

Georgetown (literally its own category): Marist, 1 or 2 Ivy, 1-2 NEC/MEAC. Not a hard and fast rule, but no games beyond 5 hrs on bus.


I'm here and ready for this pity party all season.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm here and ready for this pity party all season.

And yet Bucknell was picked to finish last, and rightfully so imo, by a relatively healthy margin. The folks in Lewisburg can't even muster up the energy to actually care let alone exhibit an emotion like pity.....

[caribbeanhen]

This is (and has been for quite some time) a Harvard issue, not an Ivy issue.

Dartmouth, Yale, and Princeton have been scheduling reasonably decent OOC opponents. Sure, there's a cupcake here and there. But there are also challenging games, or at least games that were expected to be challenging at the time they were scheduled (Dartmouth ended up playing Colgate and UNH when both were in down seasons). They have also scheduled FBS games.

Harvard... not so much. At best, they'll catch Holy Cross or URI during an upswing. But they don't really intentionally schedule "up."

Lets see what the Ivies have on the slate this year

Harvard plays
Merrimack - yuck
Holy Cross - ok good game
Howard - are you kidding me

Dartmouth plays
Valparaíso - ugh not again just horrible
Sacred Heart - meh ok a playoff team but not a game that stirs excitement
New Hampshire - I like this game

Princeton plays
Stetson - C’mon Man you gotta try hard to play these bad teams
Lehigh - 10 years gone... Is Robert Plant scheduling these games
Lafayette - Lucky it wasn’t Bucknell

Yale plays
Holy Cross - ok good but we've seen it before
Howard - 2 for 1 Howard hour
Bucknell - I spoke to soon on Bucknell

It can’t get much worse than that... So bad

[DFW HOYA]

I'm here and ready for this pity party all season.

It's not a sign of compassion to fairly reflect on schools that do not schedule to draw interest for recruits or its fan base. Marist, Monmouth, St. Francis, and two Ivies does not a rousing schedule make.

[crusader11]

Lets see what the Ivies have on the slate this year

Harvard plays
Merrimack - yuck
Holy Cross - ok good game
Howard - are you kidding me

Dartmouth plays
Valparaíso - ugh not again just horrible
Sacred Heart - meh ok a playoff team but not a game that stirs excitement
New Hampshire - I like this game

Princeton plays
Stetson - C’mon Man you gotta try hard to play these bad teams
Lehigh - 10 years gone... Is Robert Plant scheduling these games
Lafayette - Lucky it wasn’t Bucknell

Yale plays
Holy Cross - ok good but we've seen it before
Howard - 2 for 1 Howard hour
Bucknell - I spoke to soon on Bucknell

It can’t get much worse than that... So bad

The last interesting OOC game Harvard had that wasn't a PL school or URI was in 1993 against William & Mary, which -- ironically enough -- was the last year they were coached by Joe Restic. In the late 80s and early 90s, Harvard was playing W&M, UMass, Army, Northeastern, BU, etc. When Murphy became coach, the OOC became incredibly watered down (perhaps in an effort to get back to .500 plus seasons).

The OOC diet under Murphy has always been predominantly PL schools, mixed in with San Diego and URI/Northeastern. It sucks and it's boring.

Grow a pair and schedule a series with Maine (where Murphy had his first head coaching gig) or UNH.

It's pretty clear that the Ivy League only cares about themselves and schedules three OOC games out of necessity to merely round out their schedule. A damn shame because the top two or three Ivys in any given year would go toe-to-toe with just about anyone in the FCS.

[Sader87]

Merrimack getting very little love here....understandable since they're relatively new to FCS football, but they took it to Holy Cross last year at Fitton....which I sadly witnessed live instead of going to the beach or sailing. xdrunkyx

Agree in general with the sentiment here vis a vis Ivy OOC scheduling though. As a group they should get back to the types of OOC scheduling they once had in the 70s and 80s....Yale/UConn (which was played last year), Penn/Temple, Harvard/Army, Princeton/Rutgers etc as well as playing strong CAA programs more regularly. It would be bettah for college football in the East imo.

[bulldog10jw]

Lets see what the Ivies have on the slate this year

Harvard plays
Merrimack - yuck
Holy Cross - ok good game
Howard - are you kidding me

Dartmouth plays
Valparaíso - ugh not again just horrible
Sacred Heart - meh ok a playoff team but not a game that stirs excitement
New Hampshire - I like this game

Princeton plays
Stetson - C’mon Man you gotta try hard to play these bad teams
Lehigh - 10 years gone... Is Robert Plant scheduling these games
Lafayette - Lucky it wasn’t Bucknell

Yale plays
Holy Cross - ok good but we've seen it before
Howard - 2 for 1 Howard hour
Bucknell - I spoke to soon on Bucknell

It can’t get much worse than that... So bad

Yale had originally scheduled Mercer. Howard was a last minute substitute when the Mercer series was cancelled.

[caribbeanhen]

Yale had originally scheduled Mercer. Howard was a last minute substitute when the Mercer series was cancelled.

that’s too bad because that would’ve been a good game

What happened?

[bulldog10jw]

that’s too bad because that would’ve been a good game

What happened?

I never heard exactly what happened. I heard that Yale scheduling UConn caused the 2021 cancellation and also that Mercer had to rearrange some conference games. But that was 2021. Why the games in 2022 and 2023 were cancelled, ??????????

[bonarae]

Why are the SIDs of Ivy schools so secretive when it comes to scheduling xsmhx

[Go Green]

Princeton plays
Stetson - C’mon Man you gotta try hard to play these bad teams
Lehigh - 10 years gone... Is Robert Plant scheduling these games
Lafayette - Lucky it wasn’t Bucknell





Princeton was supposed to play Army in 2020. But... COVID.

[DFW HOYA]

Why are the SIDs of Ivy schools so secretive when it comes to scheduling xsmhx

Three factors:

1. At some schools, coaches drive scheduling and they don't like sharing schedules as a competitive hedge. It gives them options to move games around if better ones come along.

2. Many schedules are out 8-10 years, but as coaches and or conferences change, they need to adjust and prefer it be done in private. For example, there are a dozen or so schools that woke up this morning to find out Campbell is leaving the Big South for the CAA and their game in 2024 or 2028 isn't happening.

3. It doesn't stir up problems if a future game gets canceled.

[FUBeAR]

I never heard exactly what happened. I heard that Yale scheduling UConn caused the 2021 cancellation and also that Mercer had to rearrange some conference games. But that was 2021. Why the games in 2022 and 2023 were cancelled, ??????????
Not on the Politics Forum, so FUBeAR will not elaborate further, but, until proven otherwise, FUBeAR will believe that Yale, like MLB with its 2021 All-Star game, decided not to bring their (relatively high profile) Football Team to Macon, Georgia for the “owed” return game(s) @ Mercer for political reasons. We might see this series rescheduled after November of this year…or not.

[caribbeanhen]

Not on the Politics Forum, so FUBeAR will not elaborate further, but, until proven otherwise, FUBeAR will believe that Yale, like MLB with its 2021 All-Star game, decided not to bring their (relatively high profile) Football Team to Macon, Georgia for the “owed” return game(s) @ Mercer for political reasons. We might see this series rescheduled after November of this year…or not.

Well if major league baseball brought politics into their decisions, why can’t FuBeAR bring politics into this thread?

Because then we would have two wrongs and that don’t make it right

[bulldog10jw]

Not on the Politics Forum, so FUBeAR will not elaborate further, but, until proven otherwise, FUBeAR will believe that Yale, like MLB with its 2021 All-Star game, decided not to bring their (relatively high profile) Football Team to Macon, Georgia for the “owed” return game(s) @ Mercer for political reasons.

You may be right. What was unusual was that normally we would hear something through the grapevine, but in this case everyone has been very quiet. No announcement of the cancellation was ever made that I heard.

[The Boogie Down]

For example, there are a dozen or so schools that woke up this morning to find out Campbell is leaving the Big South for the CAA and their game in 2024 or 2028 isn't happening.

THE CAA has added sooo much Big South/MEAC junk lately that for the first time ever I actually prefer our Patsy lineup! No lie. The CAA's crap section has gotten so extensive, it's enough for me to sincerely say, "Yeeeah... Sooo, uhm, think I'd rather just stick to playing Bucknell some more." xeekx

[bonarae]

THE CAA has added sooo much Big South/MEAC junk lately that for the first time ever I actually prefer our Patsy lineup! No lie. The CAA's crap section has gotten so extensive, it's enough for me to sincerely say, "Yeeeah... Sooo, uhm, think I'd rather just stick to playing Bucknell some more." xeekx

Or maybe the PFL wakes up to reality and schedules PL and Ivies for their last OOC games of their seasons... xeyebrowx

[caribbeanhen]

THE CAA has added sooo much Big South/MEAC junk lately that for the first time ever I actually prefer our Patsy lineup! No lie. The CAA's crap section has gotten so extensive, it's enough for me to sincerely say, "Yeeeah... Sooo, uhm, think I'd rather just stick to playing Bucknell some more." xeekx

Maybe it’s the CAA doing some estate planning....

Big South sure didn’t do any

What I mean by that is they are just ensuring the future of the CAA as about five or six teams are getting ready to step out and do something else....Maybe you will be invited

[MR. CHICKEN]

THE CAA has added sooo much Big South/MEAC junk lately that for the first time ever I actually prefer our Patsy lineup! No lie. The CAA's crap section has gotten so extensive, it's enough for me to sincerely say, "Yeeeah... Sooo, uhm, think I'd rather just stick to playing Bucknell some more." xeekx

...SOME UH DAT CAA JUNK....WOOD.....CART MOS'...YER LEAGUE.....TA DUH DUMP........BRAWK!

[The Boogie Down]

...SOME UH DAT CAA JUNK....WOOD.....CART MOS'...YER LEAGUE.....TA DUH DUMP........BRAWK!

Sorry Foggy, Campbell ain't beating too many PL teams. Hampton and NC A&T is quite a drop from Holy Cross and Fordham. Don't get me started on the one that got away, Howard. The one that didn't, Elon, ain't much to brag about either. Seriously, deez Rams would moidah the whole lot of 'em! Oh and despite some previous nice moments, I wouldn't count on either Albany or Monmouth having enough "legs" to last the long haul.

So yeah... If I gotta pick between Nell/Laffy and all that newbie junk above, I'm sticking w/those ol' time Patsies. Easily. Otoh... That other hen, the Caribbean one, now that has me quite interested... xhypedx

[The Boogie Down]

What I mean by that is they are just ensuring the future of the CAA as about five or six teams are getting ready to step out and do something else....Maybe you will be invited


Wait, what? Boricua, what are you saying?

Are you saying the Tribe is gonna join the A-10 as the conference's 16th member? And that with 5 of those members having scholarship football programs (Fordham, Rhode Island, Duquesne, Richmond and the aforementioned W&M), the A-10 would suddenly become very close to again sponsoring football? And that they’d look to break the threshold by adding Villanova and Delaware to the mix as football associates? And that one last spot could be open to Towson, but preferably Georgetown, if the Hoyas agree to 63 scholarships? And that w/a revamped Georgetown we’d have teams in bigger markets (NYC, Philly, DC, Pittsburgh and Richmond), than even some P-5 conferences? And that with our tight geographical footprint, mostly small stadiums but still a rich history for most, we'd be part of the single coolest, funnest, most thrilling conference of ‘em all? Is that what you’re hinting at, Wings fan??? If so then alright-alright-alright...

Forget the Bucknell games and SIGN-ME-UP to some A-10 Football,,, baby!!! xhypedxxbeerchugxxhurrayx

[DFW HOYA]

And that one last spot could be open to Towson, but preferably Georgetown, if the Hoyas agree to 63 scholarships?

Explain how Georgetown is going to double the number of total men's scholarships its now offers and place it in one sport with no revenue potential?

[The Boogie Down]

Explain how Georgetown is going to double the number of total men's scholarships its now offers and place it in one sport with no revenue potential?


Welp, for starters, I think there can be revenue potential going forward. In fact, there's way more revenue potential with a legit FCS Georgetown playing Villanova and Richmond than what you have now. I mean, what do you even have now? Georgetown as a puffed up D-III getting smacked around by a bunch of Patsies on a year-in/year-out basis. How is that sustainable? Why is it sustainable?

In a "if this happens and if that happens" sorta way, I can explain how, as bigtime college football breaks away in the near future, a smaller, trimmed down version of the game can attract a niche fan base. Especially one in the Northeast that includes a scholarship Georgetown out there, actually trying to win. Can you explain how the non-scholarship, last place Patsy Georgetown of the past can in any way be successful in the future?

So yeah, in a brave new world, one after the P-5 (P-2?) break, I can see a certain segment of viewers genuinely interested in some genuine college football. If so, then A-10 football makes for a cool li'l regional lineup. Better than the PL. Better than the new CAA too.

First take the current A-10 four of Rhode Island, Fordham, Duquesne and Richmond and add a fifth, like William & Mary. This first part is very possible since the A-10 already announced that they're open to a further expansion. Then add an associate, like Villanova. This second part could be a strong possibility as well since my point here is that an A-10 conference is more attractive than the PL. More attractive than the Big South/MEAC monster that was once the CAA too.

Then, who knows? Maybe get another associate like a scholarship Georgetown team? Or, maybe not? Either way, A-10 football would just be a few tweaks away from forming a solid FCS league.

[caribbeanhen]

Sorry Foggy, Campbell ain't beating too many PL teams. Hampton and NC A&T is quite a drop from Holy Cross and Fordham. Don't get me started on the one that got away, Howard. The one that didn't, Elon, ain't much to brag about either. Seriously, deez Rams would moidah the whole lot of 'em! Oh and despite some previous nice moments, I wouldn't count on either Albany or Monmouth having enough "legs" to last the long haul.

So yeah... If I gotta pick between Nell/Laffy and all that newbie junk above, I'm sticking w/those ol' time Patsies. Easily. Otoh... That other hen, the Caribbean one, now that has me quite interested... xhypedx

Campbells beating every Patriot league team except Holy Cross and maybe Fordham ...what the heck are you talking about?

Oh and you should probably never mention Hampton and North Carolina A&T and the same sentence

[The Boogie Down]

Campbells beating every Patriot league team except Holy Cross and maybe Fordham ...what the heck are you talking about?

Oh and you should probably never mention Hampton and North Carolina A&T and the same sentence

Hang out, Señor Hen… Campbell only “maybe” loses to Fordham this season? Are we watching the same sport? Thankfully football starts in a few weeks and we can trade notes as the season progresses.

As for previous seasons. Here’s what I know about Campbell… Actually, no wait. Here’s what I know about Campbell and Hampton and NC A&T (I know, don’t put those two together but for this one point I kinda hafta) and Monmouth too. Actually, scratch that, let’s go back a bit and add Albany and Elon to the mix as well. So,,, what I know about all these CAA newbies is that Fordham has as many FCS playoff wins as all of them. Combined!!! Yes, one Fordham = all those CAA newbies combined, in terms of playoff wins! Now, imagine if I was comparing those newbies to say Lehigh or Colgate?

I remember 10-15 yrs ago when the CAA had a MAC-level Saragin rating and most Patsy fans out there could only dream about being as good. Now? Now you guys are poaching a bunch of stiffs with worse playoff resumes than our own! Seriously? That was done on purpose? Like, instead of the old UConn-UMass rivalry the old Yankee used to enjoy, we now have the Campbell-Elon showdown? Yikes!

So that’s why I originally mentioned, for the first time ever, I actually prefer the Patsy lineup to the new CAA one.

All that said, whatever hint you were dropping about some future CAA breakup… Man, would I love it if the A-10 came back to pick up the CAA pieces. Well, the good pieces I mean. Not the newbie junk.

[UNHWildcat18]

Wait, what? Boricua, what are you saying?

Are you saying the Tribe is gonna join the A-10 as the conference's 16th member? And that with 5 of those members having scholarship football programs (Fordham, Rhode Island, Duquesne, Richmond and the aforementioned W&M), the A-10 would suddenly become very close to again sponsoring football? And that they’d look to break the threshold by adding Villanova and Delaware to the mix as football associates? And that one last spot could be open to Towson, but preferably Georgetown, if the Hoyas agree to 63 scholarships? And that w/a revamped Georgetown we’d have teams in bigger markets (NYC, Philly, DC, Pittsburgh and Richmond), than even some P-5 conferences? And that with our tight geographical footprint, mostly small stadiums but still a rich history for most, we'd be part of the single coolest, funnest, most thrilling conference of ‘em all? Is that what you’re hinting at, Wings fan??? If so then alright-alright-alright...

Forget the Bucknell games and SIGN-ME-UP to some A-10 Football,,, baby!!! xhypedxxbeerchugxxhurrayx

A-10 isn't going to spend money to sponsor FCS football... Also those teams don't want to be in a league with Duquesne and their 2k attempt at a "stadium"

[caribbeanhen]

Wait, what? Boricua, what are you saying?

Are you saying the Tribe is gonna join the A-10 as the conference's 16th member? And that with 5 of those members having scholarship football programs (Fordham, Rhode Island, Duquesne, Richmond and the aforementioned W&M), the A-10 would suddenly become very close to again sponsoring football? And that they’d look to break the threshold by adding Villanova and Delaware to the mix as football associates? And that one last spot could be open to Towson, but preferably Georgetown, if the Hoyas agree to 63 scholarships? And that w/a revamped Georgetown we’d have teams in bigger markets (NYC, Philly, DC, Pittsburgh and Richmond), than even some P-5 conferences? And that with our tight geographical footprint, mostly small stadiums but still a rich history for most, we'd be part of the single coolest, funnest, most thrilling conference of ‘em all? Is that what you’re hinting at, Wings fan??? If so then alright-alright-alright...

Forget the Bucknell games and SIGN-ME-UP to some A-10 Football,,, baby!!! xhypedxxbeerchugxxhurrayx


anyone using the term Boricua is ok by me... reminds me I need to get up the Chuchi Fritos again

I don’t have any inside information on the CAA and what their long-term plans are, but I would think these people that are making the decisions are smart enough and are getting paid enough not to screw it up. I’m just hopeful that there is an ulterior motive behind all these additions like they’re trying to preserve the future of the CAA for when an unnamed four or five teams decide to depart for something else.

What they are accomplishing so far is making the older fan base shake their heads and remembering the good old days while at the same time doing nothing to attract the younger fan base

[KPSUL]

Campbells beating every Patriot league team except Holy Cross and maybe Fordham ...what the heck are you talking about?

Oh and you should probably never mention Hampton and North Carolina A&T and the same sentence

Hampton beat NC A&T last season 30-9.

[caribbeanhen]

Hampton beat NC A&T last season 30-9.

holy smokes your right...

[KPSUL]

holy smokes your right...

Yep, and they had the exact same conference and overall record as NC A&T; 3-4 and 5-6. Hampton could come into the @ Delaware game 3-0, after Howard, Tuskegee and Norfolk. This should raise the pucker factor, at least a little, for Hens fans.

[caribbeanhen]

Yep, and they had the exact same conference and overall record as NC A&T; 3-4 and 5-6. Hampton could come into the @ Delaware game 3-0, after Howard, Tuskegee and Norfolk. This should raise the pucker factor, at least a little, for Hens fans.

I don’t disagree, Hampton is going to get a closer look. I know they have an NFL prospect at wide receiver but not much else

[MR. CHICKEN]

I don’t disagree, Hampton is going to get a closer look. I know they have an NFL prospect at wide receiver but not much else


.....WE'VE BEEN IN DUH DARK....ON PIRATES......DEY'RE POSTERS ARE IN.....SHORT SUPPLY.....BRAWK!

[Bill]

Welp, for starters, I think there can be revenue potential going forward. In fact, there's way more revenue potential with a legit FCS Georgetown playing Villanova and Richmond than what you have now. I mean, what do you even have now? Georgetown as a puffed up D-III getting smacked around by a bunch of Patsies on a year-in/year-out basis. How is that sustainable? Why is it sustainable?

In a "if this happens and if that happens" sorta way, I can explain how, as bigtime college football breaks away in the near future, a smaller, trimmed down version of the game can attract a niche fan base. Especially one in the Northeast that includes a scholarship Georgetown out there, actually trying to win. Can you explain how the non-scholarship, last place Patsy Georgetown of the past can in any way be successful in the future?

So yeah, in a brave new world, one after the P-5 (P-2?) break, I can see a certain segment of viewers genuinely interested in some genuine college football. If so, then A-10 football makes for a cool li'l regional lineup. Better than the PL. Better than the new CAA too.

First take the current A-10 four of Rhode Island, Fordham, Duquesne and Richmond and add a fifth, like William & Mary. This first part is very possible since the A-10 already announced that they're open to a further expansion. Then add an associate, like Villanova. This second part could be a strong possibility as well since my point here is that an A-10 conference is more attractive than the PL. More attractive than the Big South/MEAC monster that was once the CAA too.

Then, who knows? Maybe get another associate like a scholarship Georgetown team? Or, maybe not? Either way, A-10 football would just be a few tweaks away from forming a solid FCS league.

BDP,
I like your spunk....but be careful there. Almost NO FCS team turns a profit. As DFW pointed out, there is zero revenue potential for GTown. In fact, most of FCS schools sponsor football without any prayer of direct positive revenue production (there are other reasons, development included, but that's for another post).

[Go...gate]

The last interesting OOC game Harvard had that wasn't a PL school or URI was in 1993 against William & Mary, which -- ironically enough -- was the last year they were coached by Joe Restic. In the late 80s and early 90s, Harvard was playing W&M, UMass, Army, Northeastern, BU, etc. When Murphy became coach, the OOC became incredibly watered down (perhaps in an effort to get back to .500 plus seasons).

The OOC diet under Murphy has always been predominantly PL schools, mixed in with San Diego and URI/Northeastern. It sucks and it's boring.

Grow a pair and schedule a series with Maine (where Murphy had his first head coaching gig) or UNH.

It's pretty clear that the Ivy League only cares about themselves and schedules three OOC games out of necessity to merely round out their schedule. A damn shame because the top two or three Ivys in any given year would go toe-to-toe with just about anyone in the FCS.

At least Cornell and Penn play Colgate.

[bonarae]

The last interesting OOC game Harvard had that wasn't a PL school or URI was in 1993 against William & Mary, which -- ironically enough -- was the last year they were coached by Joe Restic. In the late 80s and early 90s, Harvard was playing W&M, UMass, Army, Northeastern, BU, etc. When Murphy became coach, the OOC became incredibly watered down (perhaps in an effort to get back to .500 plus seasons).

The OOC diet under Murphy has always been predominantly PL schools, mixed in with San Diego and URI/Northeastern. It sucks and it's boring.

Grow a pair and schedule a series with Maine (where Murphy had his first head coaching gig) or UNH.

It's pretty clear that the Ivy League only cares about themselves and schedules three OOC games out of necessity to merely round out their schedule. A damn shame because the top two or three Ivys in any given year would go toe-to-toe with just about anyone in the FCS.

I am afraid Murphy will retire before we get a glance of any improvement on Harvard's schedule. xsighx

[Sitting Bull]

Hang out, Señor Hen… Campbell only “maybe” loses to Fordham this season? Are we watching the same sport? Thankfully football starts in a few weeks and we can trade notes as the season progresses.

As for previous seasons. Here’s what I know about Campbell… Actually, no wait. Here’s what I know about Campbell and Hampton and NC A&T (I know, don’t put those two together but for this one point I kinda hafta) and Monmouth too. Actually, scratch that, let’s go back a bit and add Albany and Elon to the mix as well. So,,, what I know about all these CAA newbies is that Fordham has as many FCS playoff wins as all of them. Combined!!! Yes, one Fordham = all those CAA newbies combined, in terms of playoff wins! Now, imagine if I was comparing those newbies to say Lehigh or Colgate?

I remember 10-15 yrs ago when the CAA had a MAC-level Saragin rating and most Patsy fans out there could only dream about being as good. Now? Now you guys are poaching a bunch of stiffs with worse playoff resumes than our own! Seriously? That was done on purpose? Like, instead of the old UConn-UMass rivalry the old Yankee used to enjoy, we now have the Campbell-Elon showdown? Yikes!

So that’s why I originally mentioned, for the first time ever, I actually prefer the Patsy lineup to the new CAA one.

All that said, whatever hint you were dropping about some future CAA breakup… Man, would I love it if the A-10 came back to pick up the CAA pieces. Well, the good pieces I mean. Not the newbie junk.

A Campbell/Elon showdown would probably draw more fans than the combined annual attendance of most PL teams.

[KPSUL]

A Campbell/Elon showdown would probably draw more fans than the combined annual attendance of most PL teams.

If you're in the mood for a moderate distance road trip, take the drive up to Lafayette when the Tribe visits this season. I went there last year when UNH played the Leopards. They have a nice stadium and there was a good size crowd.

[MR. CHICKEN]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sitting Bull https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3065424#post3065424)
A Campbell/Elon showdown would probably draw more fans than the combined annual attendance of most PL teams.



If you're in the mood for a moderate distance road trip, take the drive up to Lafayette when the Tribe visits this season. I went there last year when UNH played the Leopards. They have a nice stadium and there was a good size crowd.

FROM HERO SPORTS PUBLISHES FCS ATTENDANCE FOR 2021 THREAD

AVERAGE ATTENDANCES:




Rank
School
Avg


1
Jackson St.
42,293


2
Montana
24,584


3
James Madison
19,631


4
Montana St.
19,176


5
Southern Univ.
18,698


6
Florida A&M
16,967


7
Jacksonville St.
16,809


8
North Dakota St.
15,101


9
Yale
13,263


10
Delaware
12,844


11
South Dakota St.
12,668


12
N.C. A&T
12,437


13
New Hampshire
11,576


14
Eastern Ky.
11,539


15
Harvard
11,201


16
Alabama St.
10,881


17
Youngstown St.
10,512


18
UC Davis
10,422


19
Alabama A&M
10,241


20
Missouri St.
10,156


21
The Citadel
9,982


22
Norfolk St.
9,965


23
Western Caro.
9,824


24
North Dakota
9,661


25
Furman
9,577


26
ETSU
9,508


27
Tarleton St.
9,204


28
Mercer
8,908


29
Illinois St.
8,574


30
SFA
8,349


31
Elon
8,254


32
South Carolina St.
8,206


33
Cal Poly
7,952


34
McNeese
7,903


35
Murray St.
7,844


36
Southern Ill.
7,742


37
Northern Ariz.
7,620


38
Sacramento St.
7,615


39
Ark.-Pine Bluff
7,567


40
Central Ark.
7,560


41
Grambling
7,532


42
William & Mary
7,511


43
Chattanooga
7,482


44
Abilene Christian
7,415


45
Sam Houston
7,283


46
North Ala.
7,175


47
Holy Cross
7,156


48
N.C. Central
7,022


49
Princeton
7,019


50
Richmond
6,940


51
Nicholls
6,855


52
Stony Brook
6,777


53
UNI
6,757


54
Texas Southern
6,710


55
Morehead St.
6,707


56
Northwestern St.
6,566


57
Howard
6,529


58
Villanova
6,513


59
Weber St.
6,404


60
South Dakota
5,816


61
Kennesaw St.
5,803


62
Tennessee Tech
5,756


63
Eastern Wash.
5,725


64
Lamar University
5,716


65
Lehigh
5,639


66
Austin Peay
5,617


67
Towson
5,561


68
Columbia
5,549


69
Dartmouth
5,480


70
Mississippi Val.
5,440


71
Bethune-Cookman
5,323


72
VMI
5,217


73
Southeastern La.
5,215


74
Northern Colo.
5,168


75
Campbell
5,164


76
Maine
5,051


77
Indiana St.
4,976


78
Penn
4,971


79
Rhode Island
4,892


80
Idaho
4,878


81
Merrimack
4,860


82
Sacred Heart
4,854


83
Alcorn
4,833


84
St. Thomas (MN)
4,739


85
Dixie St.
4,728


86
Wofford
4,686


87
Albany (NY)
4,684


88
Southern Utah
4,591


89
Eastern Ill.
4,441


90
Davidson
4,225


91
UT Martin
4,208


92
Gardner-Webb
4,142


93
Morgan St.
4,049


94
Tennessee St.
4,023


95
Samford
3,949


96
Prairie View
3,827


97
Brown
3,752


98
Southeast Mo. St.
3,729


99
Cornell
3,682


100
Hampton
3,680


101
Idaho St.
3,674


102
Fordham
3,668


103
Butler
3,352


104
Portland St.
3,329


105
Western Ill.
3,282


106
Drake
3,176


107
Charleston So.
3,102


108
Monmouth
3,093


109
Central Conn. St.
2,926


110
Bryant
2,883


111
Lafayette
2,861


112
Dayton
2,692


113
Delaware St.
2,649


114
UIW
2,483


115
Valparaiso
2,480


116
Bucknell
2,415


117
Marist
2,362


118
Presbyterian
2,351


119
Georgetown
2,265


120
Robert Morris
2,150


121
Houston Baptist
2,148


122
Colgate
2,042


123
San Diego
1,987


124
Wagner
1,921


125
Duquesne
1,616


126
Stetson
1,221


127
Saint Francis (PA)
1,216


128
LIU
943




YOU SHOOD HAVE UH GOOD IDEAR UH CROWD SIZE...........WAS IT FREE $100 DOLLAR BILL DAY....IN LAFFY.....??..........BRAWK!

[crusader11]

Five PL schools worse than 100. Yikes.

[MR. CHICKEN]

.......GOT ME TA THINKIN'....WHAA FAN PROMOS....DOES YER SKOOL DO.....TA FILL SEATS....???.....LIKE.....MONTANA STATE....."FREE ELK RIDES TA KIDS 12 & UNDER......O' MAYBEAH......BOBBIN' FO' FRUIT [email protected] DIEGO......WHOSE TRACTOR HAS MOS' MILES....@ ILLINOIS STATE?.............LOBSTER [email protected] ISLAND.......O'......WHICH CHEERLEADER......GETS PREGNANT.....B/4 HOMECOMIN'[email protected]' ME....IT'S HI-SKOOL BAND DAY @ UD......FUN TA LISTEN TA KIDS WHO VAPE......TRYIN' TA PUSH DUH HONK.....THRU DEM BIG TUBAS........BRAWK!

[Tribal]

Villanova is in a populated area and consistently fields a very competitive team, yet always near the bottom of the CAA in attendance. Nova deserves better.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Villanova is in a populated area and consistently fields a very competitive team, yet always near the bottom of the CAA in attendance. Nova deserves better.

.........xsmhx.......................BRAWK!

[KPSUL]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sitting Bull https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3065424#post3065424)
A Campbell/Elon showdown would probably draw more fans than the combined annual attendance of most PL teams.



If you're in the mood for a moderate distance road trip, take the drive up to Lafayette when the Tribe visits this season. I went there last year when UNH played the Leopards. They have a nice stadium and there was a good size crowd.

FROM HERO SPORTS PUBLISHES FCS ATTENDANCE FOR 2021 THREAD

AVERAGE ATTENDANCES:




Rank
School
Avg


1
Jackson St.
42,293


2
Montana
24,584


3
James Madison
19,631


4
Montana St.
19,176


5
Southern Univ.
18,698


6
Florida A&M
16,967


7
Jacksonville St.
16,809


8
North Dakota St.
15,101


9
Yale
13,263


10
Delaware
12,844


11
South Dakota St.
12,668


12
N.C. A&T
12,437


13
New Hampshire
11,576









I believe this makes UNH #1 for Attendance per season wins last year!!!! xnodxxnodxxdrunkyx

good size = almost as many of us as them

[MR. CHICKEN]

THINGS TA DO IN NEW HAMPSHIRE:

DRIVE TA VERMONT

[DFW HOYA]

Five PL schools worse than 100. Yikes.

Georgetown outdrew Colgate. Think about that one for a moment.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Georgetown outdrew Colgate. Think about that one for a moment.

.....WELL AH DID.........BUT LEHIGH....TAKIN' 2 MONTHS TA FIND END ZONE....BLOCKED MAH THOUGHT PROCESS.....xrotatehx......BRAWK!

[UNHWildcat18]

THINGS TA DO IN NEW HAMPSHIRE:

DRIVE TA VERMONT

respectfully Mr.Foghorn you have to be joking…. I refuse to believe a man of your stature is that delusional..

[KPSUL]

THINGS TA DO IN NEW HAMPSHIRE:

DRIVE TA VERMONT

Thanks for the opening to post this video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooz7LdiUQkc


And it doesn't even mention 40 minutes to Skiing and Snowboarding and 2 hours to the best mountain hiking, as well as rock and ice climbing in the East.

[The Boogie Down]

anyone using the term Boricua is ok by me... reminds me I need to get up the Chuchi Fritos again

I don’t have any inside information on the CAA and what their long-term plans are, but I would think these people that are making the decisions are smart enough and are getting paid enough not to screw it up. I’m just hopeful that there is an ulterior motive behind all these additions like they’re trying to preserve the future of the CAA for when an unnamed four or five teams decide to depart for something else.

What they are accomplishing so far is making the older fan base shake their heads and remembering the good old days while at the same time doing nothing to attract the younger fan base

Back in my school days, Fat Joe, a Boricua who knew a thing or two about chuchifriots, would come to check out our hoops team. I used to feel bad b/c he'd always walk in looking more excited about our guys than we were. After about 2/3 seasons of steady losing, he got the hint and stopped showing up. That was the end of our celebrity row but as I said in another thread there are some good Puerto Rican eats on or just off Fordham Road. Just don't forget the Italian stuff on Arthur Ave.

Bringing it back to football... I think if-IF the A-10 sponsored football again, or if the AE tried doing the same, or if both happened, then I guess the new CAA editions make sense as a means of survival. But jeez, what a drop from James Madison!!!



A-10 isn't going to spend money to sponsor FCS football... Also those teams don't want to be in a league with Duquesne and their 2k attempt at a "stadium"

Duquesne not only has what I believe to be the smallest "stadium" in all of D-I, but also what I know to be the ugliest. No argument there. That said, they play good football. Recently (historically too for that matter), better football than any of the CAA newbies. Dukes almost beat W&M in the 2015 playoffs. A few years later in the playoffs they then beat down a very good Towson team. Wasn't just squeaking by, or flukey, or anything weird. Dukes just slowly wore them down and put a second half hurting on the Tigers. As for "those teams" not wanting to be in a league with Duquesne... If you mean Fordham and Villanova, think again. I mean, for starters, unlike say Hampton, we've actually heard of Duquesne.

As for the A-10 spending money, that'll be up to the member institutions. If they expand, and they've already announced they're open to it, and if they pick up a 5th FCS playing team, then that could be something those 5 will want to do. Throw in an associate and that's enough. If Villanova was asked to be that associate, I'm guessing they'd pick a new A-10 over the new Big South/MEAC we're seeing from the CAA.



BDP,
I like your spunk....but be careful there. Almost NO FCS team turns a profit. As DFW pointed out, there is zero revenue potential for GTown. In fact, most of FCS schools sponsor football without any prayer of direct positive revenue production (there are other reasons, development included, but that's for another post).

Very true but pretty much every school not named ND State (maybe SD State, Montana and a couple of others here-and-there) is in the red when it comes to FCS football. But what I was trying to get across to DFW (one of the best posters here) is that maybe/maybe that won't be the case after the Power Cons break. Maybe they leave and the rest of us, from the Sunbelt to the PFL, are all simply known as Division I. Maybe that'll allow the rest of us to rebrand and build an audience that is less interested in NFL-Light and more interested in a purer version of the college game. No comment on being spunky, or what former standout HS tackle, Lou Grant, thought about people w/spunk!



A Campbell/Elon showdown would probably draw more fans than the combined annual attendance of most PL teams.

HS football in Texas outdraws the PL too. Doesn't mean those 16/17 yr olds can beat the PL. My point hasn't been that Campbell can't outdraw most of the PL, but that they can't beat most of the PL. Like I've said from the beginning, that list of newbies is somehow a worse collection of teams than what the PL currently has. But I dunno, maybe you're psyched about Campbell and have your fingers crossed about Howard coming around too. xdontknowx

[Sader87]

Holy Cross outdrew Richmond, Princeton and many other Ivy and CAA schools last year. Just sayin', the PL isn't a complete graveyard for attendance.

[Gater]

In terms of attendance, different places responded to Covid differently in 2020.

Colgate averaged 4860 over the five years before. Not great, but it's a rural school with 3,000 students and Syracuse 30 miles away. 25% of Colgate students play a varsity sport and 98% of them graduate. Just not that many people around to watch football games.

The upside for Colgate in all of this is that the current Colgate president was the Notre Dame's scholar athlete of the year and stresses Colgate's niche as a small school playing Division 1 athletics during fundraising and any future plans for the school. Colgate has had a down couple of years in football. This year is a bit of a question mark but it's for sure trending in a good direction.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2015.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2016.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2018.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2019.pdf

[NY Crusader 2010]

Holy Cross outdrew Richmond, Princeton and many other Ivy and CAA schools last year. Just sayin', the PL isn't a complete graveyard for attendance.

And Lehigh and Lafayette's attendance figures will get stronger whenever those schools start producing good teams again.

[caribbeanhen]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sitting Bull https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3065424#post3065424)
A Campbell/Elon showdown would probably draw more fans than the combined annual attendance of most PL teams.



If you're in the mood for a moderate distance road trip, take the drive up to Lafayette when the Tribe visits this season. I went there last year when UNH played the Leopards. They have a nice stadium and there was a good size crowd.

FROM HERO SPORTS PUBLISHES FCS ATTENDANCE FOR 2021 THREAD

AVERAGE ATTENDANCES:




Rank
School
Avg


1
Jackson St.
42,293


2
Montana
24,584


3
James Madison
19,631


4
Montana St.
19,176


5
Southern Univ.
18,698


6
Florida A&M
16,967


7
Jacksonville St.
16,809


8
North Dakota St.
15,101


9
Yale
13,263


10
Delaware
12,844


11
South Dakota St.
12,668


12
N.C. A&T
12,437


13
New Hampshire
11,576


14
Eastern Ky.
11,539


15
Harvard
11,201


16
Alabama St.
10,881


17
Youngstown St.
10,512


18
UC Davis
10,422


19
Alabama A&M
10,241


20
Missouri St.
10,156


21
The Citadel
9,982


22
Norfolk St.
9,965


23
Western Caro.
9,824


24
North Dakota
9,661


25
Furman
9,577


26
ETSU
9,508


27
Tarleton St.
9,204


28
Mercer
8,908


29
Illinois St.
8,574


30
SFA
8,349


31
Elon
8,254


32
South Carolina St.
8,206


33
Cal Poly
7,952


34
McNeese
7,903


35
Murray St.
7,844


36
Southern Ill.
7,742


37
Northern Ariz.
7,620


38
Sacramento St.
7,615


39
Ark.-Pine Bluff
7,567


40
Central Ark.
7,560


41
Grambling
7,532


42
William & Mary
7,511


43
Chattanooga
7,482


44
Abilene Christian
7,415


45
Sam Houston
7,283


46
North Ala.
7,175


47
Holy Cross
7,156


48
N.C. Central
7,022


49
Princeton
7,019


50
Richmond
6,940


51
Nicholls
6,855


52
Stony Brook
6,777


53
UNI
6,757


54
Texas Southern
6,710


55
Morehead St.
6,707


56
Northwestern St.
6,566


57
Howard
6,529


58
Villanova
6,513


59
Weber St.
6,404


60
South Dakota
5,816


61
Kennesaw St.
5,803


62
Tennessee Tech
5,756


63
Eastern Wash.
5,725


64
Lamar University
5,716


65
Lehigh
5,639


66
Austin Peay
5,617


67
Towson
5,561


68
Columbia
5,549


69
Dartmouth
5,480


70
Mississippi Val.
5,440


71
Bethune-Cookman
5,323


72
VMI
5,217


73
Southeastern La.
5,215


74
Northern Colo.
5,168


75
Campbell
5,164


76
Maine
5,051


77
Indiana St.
4,976


78
Penn
4,971


79
Rhode Island
4,892


80
Idaho
4,878


81
Merrimack
4,860


82
Sacred Heart
4,854


83
Alcorn
4,833


84
St. Thomas (MN)
4,739


85
Dixie St.
4,728


86
Wofford
4,686


87
Albany (NY)
4,684


88
Southern Utah
4,591


89
Eastern Ill.
4,441


90
Davidson
4,225


91
UT Martin
4,208


92
Gardner-Webb
4,142


93
Morgan St.
4,049


94
Tennessee St.
4,023


95
Samford
3,949


96
Prairie View
3,827


97
Brown
3,752


98
Southeast Mo. St.
3,729


99
Cornell
3,682


100
Hampton
3,680


101
Idaho St.
3,674


102
Fordham
3,668


103
Butler
3,352


104
Portland St.
3,329


105
Western Ill.
3,282


106
Drake
3,176


107
Charleston So.
3,102


108
Monmouth
3,093


109
Central Conn. St.
2,926


110
Bryant
2,883


111
Lafayette
2,861


112
Dayton
2,692


113
Delaware St.
2,649


114
UIW
2,483


115
Valparaiso
2,480


116
Bucknell
2,415


117
Marist
2,362


118
Presbyterian
2,351


119
Georgetown
2,265


120
Robert Morris
2,150


121
Houston Baptist
2,148


122
Colgate
2,042


123
San Diego
1,987


124
Wagner
1,921


125
Duquesne
1,616


126
Stetson
1,221


127
Saint Francis (PA)
1,216


128
LIU
943




YOU SHOOD HAVE UH GOOD IDEAR UH CROWD SIZE...........WAS IT FREE $100 DOLLAR BILL DAY....IN LAFFY.....??..........BRAWK!


Very interesting Mr C

do you have one of these for actual butts in seats? Haha

Robert Morris visits Hampton last fall, it was a blustery rainy day
at halftime I had an associate at the game and he reported he counted 200 people in the stadium...

So I ask you, do Hampton fans really exist?

[DFW HOYA]

Welp, for starters, I think there can be revenue potential going forward. In fact, there's way more revenue potential with a legit FCS Georgetown playing Villanova and Richmond than what you have now. I mean, what do you even have now? Georgetown as a puffed up D-III getting smacked around by a bunch of Patsies on a year-in/year-out basis. How is that sustainable? Why is it sustainable?

In a "if this happens and if that happens" sorta way, I can explain how, as bigtime college football breaks away in the near future, a smaller, trimmed down version of the game can attract a niche fan base. Especially one in the Northeast that includes a scholarship Georgetown out there, actually trying to win. Can you explain how the non-scholarship, last place Patsy Georgetown of the past can in any way be successful in the future?


A scholarship, at its core, is a three part instrument: 1) it's a partial or full tuition payment based on skill, be it academic, athletic, music, etc., 2) it's a tool to attract competitive candidates to a college, and most importantly, 3) it's an offer of admission.

Football at Georgetown is held back by a lack of scholarship support, but they're not alone. The school offers about 60 men's scholarships across 14 sports, of which 48 or so are locked in with basketball, soccer, lacrosse, and track. Because enrollment is fixed by DC statute, an extra scholarship is literally taking the space of a paying customer, so there's no groundswell to add more scholarships.

Plenty of Georgetown sports don't have full scholarship but with an offer of admission can nonetheless be competitive, with one exception: football. Why? Because football is the only team where admission is determined by the rules of the Patriot League, which sets a floor for admission to Georgetown that is not only arbitrary, but higher than the other schools. A linebacker that is a cinch for Fordham may not even be permissible for Georgetown to recruit.

If Georgetown wanted to take a kid with a lower SAT in baseball or swimming, it's the school's decision. In football, it's the league's decision. Georgetown signs kids from NEPSAC schools not because Deerfield or Choate are football hotbeds but they are more likely to be admitted under the rules of the league. But those are spaces in the entering class that go to high SAT kids versus others that could succeed at Georgetown but are de facto disqualified by the league for an SAT score below ~1240, which is acceptable at most other PL schools given their SAT ranges.

Let's put aside the relevance of judging someone by a standardized test for a moment. With 63 scholarships, Georgetown would be the peer of Villanova on the gridiron. But even with generous need based aid, it could still be competitive in an A-10 or another Eastern conference if it was allowed to exercise its own discretion on admissions like 107 FCS schools already do. But as long as Georgetown is in the Patriot League, that's not going to happen.

[Go...gate]

.......GOT ME TA THINKIN'....WHAA FAN PROMOS....DOES YER SKOOL DO.....TA FILL SEATS....???.....LIKE.....MONTANA STATE....."FREE ELK RIDES TA KIDS 12 & UNDER......O' MAYBEAH......BOBBIN' FO' FRUIT [email protected] DIEGO......WHOSE TRACTOR HAS MOS' MILES....@ ILLINOIS STATE?.............LOBSTER [email protected] ISLAND.......O'......WHICH CHEERLEADER......GETS PREGNANT.....B/4 HOMECOMIN'[email protected]' ME....IT'S HI-SKOOL BAND DAY @ UD......FUN TA LISTEN TA KIDS WHO VAPE......TRYIN' TA PUSH DUH HONK.....THRU DEM BIG TUBAS........BRAWK!

My goodness, Princeton at a just a shade over 7,000 per home game. I am old enough to recall the Tigers routinely drawing three times that much in the 1960s and 1970s, not to mention crowds for Harvard, Yale, Pennsylvania and Rutgers that were usually even larger.

[Go...gate]

In terms of attendance, different places responded to Covid differently in 2020.

Colgate averaged 4860 over the five years before. Not great, but it's a rural school with 3,000 students and Syracuse 30 miles away. 25% of Colgate students play a varsity sport and 98% of them graduate. Just not that many people around to watch football games.

The upside for Colgate in all of this is that the current Colgate president was the Notre Dame's scholar athlete of the year and stresses Colgate's niche as a small school playing Division 1 athletics during fundraising and any future plans for the school. Colgate has had a down couple of years in football. This year is a bit of a question mark but it's for sure trending in a good direction.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2015.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2016.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2018.pdf
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2019.pdf

Amen.

[The Boogie Down]

My goodness, Princeton at a just a shade over 7,000 per home game. I am old enough to recall the Tigers routinely drawing three times that much in the 1960s and 1970s, not to mention crowds for Harvard, Yale, Pennsylvania and Rutgers that were usually even larger.

Great to have you back, GG! I think part of your point can be explained by the thinking that back in 1970, the football culture at Princeton was about three times bigger than it is now. Today's student body, young alumni population, even the casual fans just don't care as much. To me however the second biggest factor has more to do w/basic branding. I think a case can be made that (top to bottom), the league's on-field product is stronger today than it was in say, 1980. Yet, because the Ivies were still classified as D-I back then, where as now they're in the FCS subdivision, people simply believe it's an inferior product to begin with. If/when the Power Cons break, all the G-5's and the FCS will have an opportunity to rebrand as simply D-I again.



A scholarship, at its core, is a three part instrument: 1) it's a partial or full tuition payment based on skill, be it academic, athletic, music, etc., 2) it's a tool to attract competitive candidates to a college, and most importantly, 3) it's an offer of admission.

Football at Georgetown is held back by a lack of scholarship support, but they're not alone. The school offers about 60 men's scholarships across 14 sports, of which 48 or so are locked in with basketball, soccer, lacrosse, and track. Because enrollment is fixed by DC statute, an extra scholarship is literally taking the space of a paying customer, so there's no groundswell to add more scholarships.

Plenty of Georgetown sports don't have full scholarship but with an offer of admission can nonetheless be competitive, with one exception: football. Why? Because football is the only team where admission is determined by the rules of the Patriot League, which sets a floor for admission to Georgetown that is not only arbitrary, but higher than the other schools. A linebacker that is a cinch for Fordham may not even be permissible for Georgetown to recruit.

If Georgetown wanted to take a kid with a lower SAT in baseball or swimming, it's the school's decision. In football, it's the league's decision. Georgetown signs kids from NEPSAC schools not because Deerfield or Choate are football hotbeds but they are more likely to be admitted under the rules of the league. But those are spaces in the entering class that go to high SAT kids versus others that could succeed at Georgetown but are de facto disqualified by the league for an SAT score below ~1240, which is acceptable at most other PL schools given their SAT ranges.

Let's put aside the relevance of judging someone by a standardized test for a moment. With 63 scholarships, Georgetown would be the peer of Villanova on the gridiron. But even with generous need based aid, it could still be competitive in an A-10 or another Eastern conference if it was allowed to exercise its own discretion on admissions like 107 FCS schools already do. But as long as Georgetown is in the Patriot League, that's not going to happen.


I think if W&M ever gets into the A-10 and the five scholarship FCS schools (Rhode Island, Fordham, Duquesne, Richmond and W&M) start fishing for associates, then those associates would have to answer some Q’s. Would Villanova want to remain in whatever's left of the CAA? Would Georgetown want to remain, whether it be via scholarship or need based aid, hindered by the PL’s academic index?

[DFW HOYA]

Great to have you back, GG! I think part of your point can be explained by the thinking that back in 1970, the football culture at Princeton was about three times bigger than it is now. Today's student body, young alumni population, even the casual fans just don't care as much. To me however the second biggest factor has more to do w/basic branding. I think a case can be made that (top to bottom), the league's on-field product is stronger today than it was in say, 1980. Yet, because the Ivies were still classified as D-I back then, where as now they're in the FCS subdivision, people simply believe it's an inferior product to begin with. If/when the Power Cons break, all the G-5's and the FCS will have an opportunity to rebrand as simply D-I again.
I think if W&M ever gets into the A-10 and the five scholarship FCS schools (Rhode Island, Fordham, Duquesne, Richmond and W&M) start fishing for associates, then those associates would have to answer some Q’s. Would Villanova want to remain in whatever's left of the CAA? Would Georgetown want to remain, whether it be via scholarship or need based aid, hindered by the PL’s academic index?

A few thoughts.

1. Like the Big Ten, both the A-10 and CAA are not done with expansion. Unlike past years, when the A-10 added teams in preparation of losing schools to the Big East, it's going to continue adding schools as a means of securing at-large NCAA tournament bids. That's not a winning formula for W&M, given its place among four original schools that have never made the NCAA basketball tournament (along with Army, The Citadel, and St. Francis NY) W&M was 5-27 last year, with one of those wins versus a D-III team, so they would have to step up in basketball to be a future A-10 prospect. At 15, the CAA will still look at schools, although I wonder who's left at this point outside the MEAC.

2. An A-10 with Fordham puts the viability of the Patriot League at danger with six schools. An A-10 with Fordham and Georgetown renders it defunct. The PL seems ill-equipped to consider a contingency plan in this case, since they look down on the Bryants and Merrimacks of the world and would gain little with Marist. An A-10 without Villanova would probably fail at the start.

3. Three A-10 schools play club football: George Mason, VCU, and Loyola-Chicago. Would A-10 football be an opportunity any would see to move up?

[Go...gate]

A few thoughts.

1. Like the Big Ten, both the A-10 and CAA are not done with expansion. Unlike past years, when the A-10 added teams in preparation of losing schools to the Big East, it's going to continue adding schools as a means of securing at-large NCAA tournament bids. That's not a winning formula for W&M, given its place among four original schools that have never made the NCAA basketball tournament (along with Army, The Citadel, and St. Francis NY) W&M was 5-27 last year, with one of those wins versus a D-III team, so they would have to step up in basketball to be a future A-10 prospect. At 15, the CAA will still look at schools, although I wonder who's left at this point outside the MEAC.

2. An A-10 with Fordham puts the viability of the Patriot League at danger with six schools. An A-10 with Fordham and Georgetown renders it defunct. The PL seems ill-equipped to consider a contingency plan in this case, since they look down on the Bryants and Merrimacks of the world and would gain little with Marist. An A-10 without Villanova would probably fail at the start.

3. Three A-10 schools play club football: George Mason, VCU, and Loyola-Chicago. Would A-10 football be an opportunity any would see to move up?


Fordham may leave, but can they compete in the CAA?

As to Georgetown, they display no signs of adopting scholarship football. that is a non-starter in the CAA.

Finally, with regard to Marist, my understanding is that they don't want the PL (their mistake, IMO).

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham may leave, but can they compete in the CAA?

As to Georgetown, they display no signs of adopting scholarship football. that is a non-starter in the CAA.

Finally, with regard to Marist, my understanding is that they don't want the PL (their mistake, IMO).

1. Fordham can compete anywhere they want to.
2. If Georgetown can get talent admitted, it doesn't matter how many formal "scholarships" are available.
3. Without Marist, who's left for the PL? Assumption? Bryant?

[Sader87]

Holy Cross can be the best FCS program in the Northeast regardless of what league they are in...not sure what all the squabbling is about

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

With the admission of a blatant "historical" and "fundamental" agenda used to create such an alignment; this would be my hope for a strong, well rounded, forward thinking Northeast/Mid-Atlantic athletic conference. Sorry Bucknell, Georgetown, Stony Brook, Towson etc. Richmond and W&M imo should be part of the SoCon although both clearly "fit" the PL/high-end CAA academic profile....

Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Holy Cross
Villanova
Fordham
Delaware
UNH
Maine
Rhode Island

Flagship, traditional New England institutions, elite privates and Delaware (:p) is the type of balance, "diversity", needed imo moving forward in order to keep everyone as honest as possible when it comes to "success". This would be a damn good "all but hoops" athletic conference imo. Honestly, add Vermont for hoops....maybe Bucknell too xsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

1. Fordham can compete anywhere they want to.
2. If Georgetown can get talent admitted, it doesn't matter how many formal "scholarships" are available.
3. Without Marist, who's left for the PL? Assumption? Bryant?

1. Disagree. The A-10 remains a far stronger conference, top to bottom, than the Patriot League.

2. How does Georgetown plan on getting "talent admitted" without scholarships?

3. Assumption and Bryant are out of the question based upon academic profile.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross can be the best FCS program in the Northeast regardless of what league they are in...not sure what all the squabbling is about

It certainly appears that Holy Cross has returned to their Carter/Duffner era power.

[UNHWildcat18]

I also just don't see the A-10 starting football, even if FCS. Also I know the Dukes have fielded a good team over the years but their 2.2k stadium is embarrassing and no CAA team is going to want to play there, even if a big shift happened in the north east. There is a reason the dukes are happy in the NEC and never tried to join the CAA like their A-10 bretheren(that I know of).

The PL should have pushed harder to get Fordham to be an all sports member as its apparent the A-10 isn't a good for for them.

Personally I think that UD is going to keep spending money on athletics for an A-10 spot if a team leaves next year. I think they will remain FCS as no FBS conference has interest in them. CAA could easily just make them an associate but if they wanted more wiggle room I believe they could work to convince other teams to start a new league. Especially if the CAA adds another southern team like Norfolk state or NC Central.

[RichH2]

It certainly appears that Holy Cross has returned to their Carter/Duffner era power.
As with the Duffner Era,the issue for HC is how much longer does Chesney stay.

[Go Green]

As with the Duffner Era,the issue for HC is how much longer does Chesney stay.

What really killed HC was that they stopped giving scholarships when Vaas took over. They were beating a lot of teams that were not offering scholarships (or in the Ivies' case, not giving generous financial aid packages).

I always wondered whether Vaas signed on knowing that scholarships were going to be taken away, or if he got blindsided.

[crusader11]

I always wondered whether Vaas signed on knowing that scholarships were going to be taken away, or if he got blindsided.

Vaas knew that HC was transitioning into a non-scholarship program when he was hired. Quote from him below --

Needless to say, the years there, I felt they were frustrating. At that point in time, I went into it with my eyes wide open, knowing they were transitioning from a scholarship program to a non-scholarship program, and it was just frustrating because I didn’t feel as though they really knew what they were doing or how they were going to do it.

[Go Green]

Vaas knew that HC was transitioning into a non-scholarship program when he was hired. Quote from him below --

Needless to say, the years there, I felt they were frustrating. At that point in time, I went into it with my eyes wide open, knowing they were transitioning from a scholarship program to a non-scholarship program, and it was just frustrating because I didn’t feel as though they really knew what they were doing or how they were going to do it.

Thanks so much!

What was he expecting, though? More support for the program in other forms (new weight room, stadium upgrades, etc.)?

[The Boogie Down]

I also just don't see the A-10 starting football, even if FCS. Also I know the Dukes have fielded a good team over the years but their 2.2k stadium is embarrassing and no CAA team is going to want to play there, even if a big shift happened in the north east. There is a reason the dukes are happy in the NEC and never tried to join the CAA like their A-10 bretheren(that I know of).

The PL should have pushed harder to get Fordham to be an all sports member as its apparent the A-10 isn't a good for for them.

Personally I think that UD is going to keep spending money on athletics for an A-10 spot if a team leaves next year. I think they will remain FCS as no FBS conference has interest in them. CAA could easily just make them an associate but if they wanted more wiggle room I believe they could work to convince other teams to start a new league. Especially if the CAA adds another southern team like Norfolk state or NC Central.

Dukes were a solid non scholarship MAAC team (won a couple of ECAC Bowls as the region's best minnow) that became a solid scholarship NEC team. They got their first FBS scalp last year so nothing on the field says they couldn't handle a new A-10. But yeah, the field itself is an embarrassment so that would hafta be addressed.

Fordham sucks in men's hoops. That's kinda important in the A-10. But, they've shown some improvement last year w/Klyle Neptune and with the recruits he left behind before taking over at Villanova. We'll see...

Until then let's not forget that Fordham is a legit A-10 player in most other sports. Over the past 6-7 years the Rams have won multiple league titles in women's hoops, softball and men's soccer where they reached the NCAA's Elite 8 in 2017. Again, that's multiple league titles in each sport. The baseball team adds one league title to the mix while even less successful sports, like women's soccer, women's volleyball, and women's tennis team have all reached the A-10 Finals over the past 2-3 seasons. Theres is no going back to the PL.

The fact that you're talking about NC Central and Norfolk State proves my point about how far the CAA is dropping.

[The Boogie Down]

A few thoughts.

1. Like the Big Ten, both the A-10 and CAA are not done with expansion. Unlike past years, when the A-10 added teams in preparation of losing schools to the Big East, it's going to continue adding schools as a means of securing at-large NCAA tournament bids. That's not a winning formula for W&M, given its place among four original schools that have never made the NCAA basketball tournament (along with Army, The Citadel, and St. Francis NY) W&M was 5-27 last year, with one of those wins versus a D-III team, so they would have to step up in basketball to be a future A-10 prospect. At 15, the CAA will still look at schools, although I wonder who's left at this point outside the MEAC.

2. An A-10 with Fordham puts the viability of the Patriot League at danger with six schools. An A-10 with Fordham and Georgetown renders it defunct. The PL seems ill-equipped to consider a contingency plan in this case, since they look down on the Bryants and Merrimacks of the world and would gain little with Marist. An A-10 without Villanova would probably fail at the start.

3. Three A-10 schools play club football: George Mason, VCU, and Loyola-Chicago. Would A-10 football be an opportunity any would see to move up?

I agree with most of this. I'm also aware of W&M’s standing within the “Futile Four” (used to be five until NW finally got into the dance) and think it would be hard for the A-10 to justify allowing a 5-27 (4-27 when not counting D-III games) team into their ranks. But we’re talking about William & Mary here! America’s second oldest college; Thomas Jefferson’s alma mater; billion dollar endowment that I bet doctors Turk and Dorian contribute to! Aside from all that, W&M has “potential” on its side. And yes, I see how rich that is coming from a Fordham fan.

But, if we look at what Richmond has done and use that as blueprint for W&M, then an upside exists. That’s clearly a higher ceiling than other teams being talked about for an A-10 expansion spot, like say, Iona. Also, I don’t think the Big East is quite done with picking from the old A-10 tree. If Gonzaga doesn’t happen, then one more from the familiar stash should do the trick. Saint Louis, Dayton, Loyola (no matter what DePaul says) are all candidates and since sometimes conferences don’t really think long term (Butler to the Big East; GMU to the A-10), I think the first of those three to make some future deep run in the NCAA's lands a spot as the Big East’s 12th member.

Anyways, although this isn’t the best time to be playing horrific basketball, there could be multiple openings for W&M. Holy Cross, free falling on the hardwood since the Ralph Willard days, seems happy in the PL but I’d be shocked if the A-10 didn’t reach out. Delaware would be more of a stretch but they too would get a look if their hoops team can add to last year’s CAA chip.

In short, lots of different vehicles can bring the A-10 back into sponsoring football again. And, aside from the club football teams mentioned above, there’s also Dayton and Davidson as well. Davidson in particular seems intriguing since they’ve been the single worst program in 1-AA/FCS history and yet are coming off two straight playoffs appearance. Either way, I do think the day could come when east coast football is represented by not just the Ivies, CAA, PL and MEAC but the A-10 and AE as well. In that scenario, and w/my own bias aside noted, I do like the A-10’s lineup of Rhode Island, Fordham, Duquesne, Villanova, Georgetown, Richmond, W&M (or HC or UD) best.

As for the PL… Ehhh, even without Fordham and Georgetown, they'd survive. If Marist doesn't want in, as GG earlier claimed, then that would be tough. But gaining the Red Foxes would add more than just a “little” as it would get the PL back to six teams. A safer six if Marist went in full-time. Again though, does Marist even want in? Either way Howard (a horrible fit for the CAA, once the top football conference in all the FCS, but a coup for the PL as one of the country's top HBCU’s), would not only give the PL a 6th or 7th (depending on Marist), but it would put the PL back in the DC market.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Atlantic 10 already sponsored football from 1997-2006. It took over stewardship of the old Yankee Conference and the CAA took over the banner in 2007.

America East still much more likely to sponsor football than an A-10 football conference starting up. Did someone really bring up the idea of VCU and Loyola (Chicago) football? LMAO

[NY Crusader 2010]

I agree with most of this. I'm also aware of W&M’s standing within the “Futile Four” (used to be five until NW finally got into the dance) and think it would be hard for the A-10 to justify allowing a 5-27 (4-27 when not counting D-III games) team into their ranks. But we’re talking about William & Mary here! America’s second oldest college; Thomas Jefferson’s alma mater; billion dollar endowment that I bet doctors Turk and Dorian contribute to! Aside from all that, W&M has “potential” on its side. And yes, I see how rich that is coming from a Fordham fan.

But, if we look at what Richmond has done and use that as blueprint for W&M, then an upside exists. That’s clearly a higher ceiling than other teams being talked about for an A-10 expansion spot, like say, Iona. Also, I don’t think the Big East is quite done with picking from the old A-10 tree. If Gonzaga doesn’t happen, then one more from the familiar stash should do the trick. Saint Louis, Dayton, Loyola (no matter what DePaul says) are all candidates and since sometimes conferences don’t really think long term (Butler to the Big East; GMU to the A-10), I think the first of those three to make some future deep run in the NCAA's lands a spot as the Big East’s 12th member.

Anyways, although this isn’t the best time to be playing horrific basketball, there could be multiple openings for W&M. Holy Cross, free falling on the hardwood since the Ralph Willard days, seems happy in the PL but I’d be shocked if the A-10 didn’t reach out. Delaware would be more of a stretch but they too would get a look if their hoops team can add to last year’s CAA chip.

In short, lots of different vehicles can bring the A-10 back into sponsoring football again. And, aside from the club football teams mentioned above, there’s also Dayton and Davidson as well. Davidson in particular seems intriguing since they’ve been the single worst program in 1-AA/FCS history and yet are coming off two straight playoffs appearance. Either way, I do think the day could come when east coast football is represented by not just the Ivies, CAA, PL and MEAC but the A-10 and AE as well. In that scenario, and w/my own bias aside noted, I do like the A-10’s lineup of Rhode Island, Fordham, Duquesne, Villanova, Georgetown, Richmond, W&M (or HC or UD) best.

As for the PL… Ehhh, even without Fordham and Georgetown, they'd survive. If Marist doesn't want in, as GG earlier claimed, then that would be tough. But gaining the Red Foxes would add more than just a “little” as it would get the PL back to six teams. A safer six if Marist went in full-time. Again though, does Marist even want in? Either way Howard (a horrible fit for the CAA, once the top football conference in all the FCS, but a coup for the PL as one of the country's top HBCU’s), would not only give the PL a 6th or 7th (depending on Marist), but it would put the PL back in the DC market.

Holy Cross to the A-10 => I guess we can dream. Saying our basketball program is in total shambles would be a great disrespect to shambles.

Howard to the PL => First, there's no way Howard (the flagship HBCU nationally from an institutional perspective) leaves the MEAC until it officially collapses, if/when that happens. They'll go down with that ship. As far as the Patriot League, I'd love to have them on board but I'm not sure how much difficulty they'd have recruiting with the AI. Howard, because of its reputation as the top HBCU and DC location, attracts a lot of high-achieving students who turn down top schools to attend there. But at the same time, the acceptance rate is fairly high. It wouldn't surprise me if they have the widest middle-50% SAT range of any college or university in the country. I'm not an AI expert but that could potentially create difficulties in recruiting.

[DFW HOYA]

Howard to the PL => First, there's no way Howard (the flagship HBCU nationally from an institutional perspective) leaves the MEAC until it officially collapses, if/when that happens. They'll go down with that ship. As far as the Patriot League, I'd love to have them on board but I'm not sure how much difficulty they'd have recruiting with the AI. Howard, because of its reputation as the top HBCU and DC location, attracts a lot of high-achieving students who turn down top schools to attend there. But at the same time, the acceptance rate is fairly high. It wouldn't surprise me if they have the widest middle-50% SAT range of any college or university in the country. I'm not an AI expert but that could potentially create difficulties in recruiting.

Howard's middle-50 percent SAT range is 1130–1280. Accept rate is 36%, yield rate is 26%.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-profile/howard-university/admissions

[NY Crusader 2010]

Howard's middle-50 percent SAT range is 1130–1280. Accept rate is 36%, yield rate is 26%.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-profile/howard-university/admissions

Great info. I would've thought the 75 percentile SAT score at Howard was higher -- my guess would have been closer to 1400. Perhaps it was when I was last glancing at such metrics regularly (fall 2005). Maybe a function of more robust outreach by other strong private and public universities when it comes to recruiting students of color.

[DFW HOYA]

Great info. I would've thought the 75 percentile SAT score at Howard was higher -- my guess would have been closer to 1400. Perhaps it was when I was last glancing at such metrics regularly (fall 2005). Maybe a function of more robust outreach by other strong private and public universities when it comes to recruiting students of color.

Howard likes to position itself as the HBCU Harvard but they do not back it up in admissions or financial aid.

Despite a $220 million subsidy from the federal government, "the average need-based self-help aid awarded to first-year students was $3,174," writes US News. "The average non-need-based scholarship or grant awarded to first-year students at Howard University – excluding any athletic scholarships, if applicable – was $8,787." Ninety five percent of applicants applied for need, but just 20 percent received full need. A top POC candidate out of a high school will have a lot more options, especially at Ivy and nationally competitive programs with diverse populations. A full ride at Princeton beats Howard ten times out of ten.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/howard-university-1448/paying

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Great info. I would've thought the 75 percentile SAT score at Howard was higher -- my guess would have been closer to 1400. Perhaps it was when I was last glancing at such metrics regularly (fall 2005). Maybe a function of more robust outreach by other strong private and public universities when it comes to recruiting students of color.

Temple has a long history of attracting and accepting student's who come from disadvantaged backgrounds; generally, and unfortunately, black applicants from the urban areas of Philly, North Jersey, Wilmington, Trenton, the Lehigh Valley, DC and Baltimore. I would love to know Temple's metrics (academic and financial) for black student's of varying qualifications compared to those at Howard.

Out of curiosity I checked out Towson's demographics (Temple and Towson have developed a mutual applicant pool the last 10-15 years) given the school's growth and general historical positioning; 51% white and 24% Black/African American.

While Howard has a very specific mission there are numerous institutions that are able to attract student's of color via quality academics and a diverse student body. Wayne State has always intrigued me for this reason. Great school when considering its mission relative to Big Blue and Sparty.....

[centraljerseycat]

Dukes were a solid non scholarship MAAC team (won a couple of ECAC Bowls as the region's best minnow) that became a solid scholarship NEC team. They got their first FBS scalp last year so nothing on the field says they couldn't handle a new A-10. But yeah, the field itself is an embarrassment so that would hafta be addressed.

Fordham sucks in men's hoops. That's kinda important in the A-10. But, they've shown some improvement last year w/Klyle Neptune and with the recruits he left behind before taking over at Villanova. We'll see...

Until then let's not forget that Fordham is a legit A-10 player in most other sports. Over the past 6-7 years the Rams have won multiple league titles in women's hoops, softball and men's soccer where they reached the NCAA's Elite 8 in 2017. Again, that's multiple league titles in each sport. The baseball team adds one league title to the mix while even less successful sports, like women's soccer, women's volleyball, and women's tennis team have all reached the A-10 Finals over the past 2-3 seasons. Theres is no going back to the PL.

The fact that you're talking about NC Central and Norfolk State proves my point about how far the CAA is dropping.

Mr Boogie I like the way you think. Anyway you slice it, the new CAA (without JMU, with Monmouth, NC A&T and Hampton) is inferior to the CAA of years past. I also think Delaware is better served moving to the A-10, especially if Ingelsby continues improving Hen Hoops. Then they will have no issues leaving with Nova, Richmond, UNH, Maine and URI to a new Eastern FCS conference. It doesn't matter if Albany comes along or not and I don't care what conference sponsors it. Just need 2 or 3 add'l schools from the Patriot who are tired of the archaic AI and redshirt rules...my preference would be Lehigh or my Catholic brethren at Holy Cross & Fordham rather than Georgetown, Bucknell or Lafayette.

[DFW HOYA]

Mr Boogie I like the way you think. Anyway you slice it, the new CAA (without JMU, with Monmouth, NC A&T and Hampton) is inferior to the CAA of years past. I also think Delaware is better served moving to the A-10, especially if Ingelsby continues improving Hen Hoops. Then they will have no issues leaving with Nova, Richmond, UNH, Maine and URI to a new Eastern FCS conference. It doesn't matter if Albany comes along or not and I don't care what conference sponsors it. Just need 2 or 3 add'l schools from the Patriot who are tired of the archaic AI and redshirt rules...my preference would be Lehigh or my Catholic brethren at Holy Cross & Fordham rather than Georgetown, Bucknell or Lafayette.

Villanova really doesn't want to play Georgetown. It's the only PL school they've never scheduled.

[WestCoastAggie]

Howard likes to position itself as the HBCU Harvard but they do not back it up in admissions or financial aid.

Despite a $220 million subsidy from the federal government, "the average need-based self-help aid awarded to first-year students was $3,174," writes US News. "The average non-need-based scholarship or grant awarded to first-year students at Howard University – excluding any athletic scholarships, if applicable – was $8,787." Ninety five percent of applicants applied for need, but just 20 percent received full need. A top POC candidate out of a high school will have a lot more options, especially at Ivy and nationally competitive programs with diverse populations. A full ride at Princeton beats Howard ten times out of ten.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/howard-university-1448/paying

Howard does have that HBCU experience going for it. Not to mention, students don't necessarily have to worry about being that "token" student in classes and the dorms which could add to anxiety as they learn their way in the world.

[KPSUL]

Mr Boogie I like the way you think. Anyway you slice it, the new CAA (without JMU, with Monmouth, NC A&T and Hampton) is inferior to the CAA of years past. I also think Delaware is better served moving to the A-10, especially if Ingelsby continues improving Hen Hoops. Then they will have no issues leaving with Nova, Richmond, UNH, Maine and URI to a new Eastern FCS conference. It doesn't matter if Albany comes along or not and I don't care what conference sponsors it. Just need 2 or 3 add'l schools from the Patriot who are tired of the archaic AI and redshirt rules...my preference would be Lehigh or my Catholic brethren at Holy Cross & Fordham rather than Georgetown, Bucknell or Lafayette.

This assessment is right on point. Most speculation found here and other AGS Threads concerning the future of football only CAAF members is a lot of nonsense. All I could add is that another possibility would include UMass or UConn transitioning to this new alignment.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Mr Boogie I like the way you think. Anyway you slice it, the new CAA (without JMU, with Monmouth, NC A&T and Hampton) is inferior to the CAA of years past. I also think Delaware is better served moving to the A-10, especially if Ingelsby continues improving Hen Hoops. Then they will have no issues leaving with Nova, Richmond, UNH, Maine and URI to a new Eastern FCS conference. It doesn't matter if Albany comes along or not and I don't care what conference sponsors it. Just need 2 or 3 add'l schools from the Patriot who are tired of the archaic AI and redshirt rules...my preference would be Lehigh or my Catholic brethren at Holy Cross & Fordham rather than Georgetown, Bucknell or Lafayette.

There is no question the CAA's strength as a FCS conference has been diminished considerably because of attrition. Then you have the PL which continues to exist adrift in a self-absorbed sea of archaic policies rooted in "Ivy Envy". I would love nothing more than for Lehigh to finally "outgrow" its tweener status by committing to being a truly encompassing research institution (ala Northwestern and Duke) while remaining committed to the student-athlete. Keeping company with quality, public schools like Delaware/UNH/Maine/URI along with traditional mates in Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross and maybe Lafayette is a better place moving forward imo. The Northeast has the foundation for 2, maybe 3, high-quality somewhat nationally relevant FCS/mid-major hoops conferences. I will always consider the Ivy League as nationally relevant given the power of its brand.

Heck, Stony Brook is an AAU institution which was granted "flagship" status, along with UB, this past winter. They would be a great get for any academically/athletically minded conference....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Excluding the Ivies you could have two quality "second tier" conferences in the Northeast(ish) depending on how things unfold.

Tier 2
Temple
UConn
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Pitt
Navy (football)
Buffalo
UMass (?)

Tier 3
Lehigh
Colgate
Lafayette
Holy Cross
Fordham
Villanova (football)
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Stony Brook
Delaware

[NY Crusader 2010]

Excluding the Ivies you could have two quality "second tier" conferences in the Northeast(ish) depending on how things unfold.

Tier 2
Temple
UConn
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Pitt
Navy (football)
Buffalo
UMass (?)

Tier 3
Lehigh
Colgate
Lafayette
Holy Cross
Fordham
Villanova (football)
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Stony Brook
Delaware

In the new NIL world, the Tier 2 group could definitely happen (minus Virginia Tech, who I think will raise the funds needed to stay in whatever the highest level is). As far as the Tier 3 group, I don't see it. Conference memberships at this level revolve more around all-sports than they do FCS football specifically. Maybe America East football happens but as far as the Atlantic 10 resurrecting football to try and compete with the CAA in that sport, I don't see it.

My selfish wish list would be to see the AI and redshirt rules get dropped and Delaware and W&M join PL in all sports and Richmond and Villanova join in football. That's nowhere near happening though.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Villanova really doesn't want to play Georgetown. It's the only PL school they've never scheduled.

They also haven't SCHEDULED Holy Cross since the 1980's. Our two meetings since then were NCAA playoff games. I think Villanova just likes to play OOC games with minimal travel since their CAA schedule involves a number of flights and long bus trips. So the Pennsylvania schools and Fordham are a nice option for then. Of course Philly to DC would probably also meet the definition of "minimal travel".

[bonarae]

When shall we start the PL pick'em for week 1 2022? Next week or so?

[Go...gate]

IMO, were Colgate to move, it would have to be with Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross. Some awfully old rivalries there. Also, I believe the Patriot League has been a great home for Colgate. If Fordham and Georgetown see greener pastures elsewhere, that is their decision.

[The Boogie Down]

America East still much more likely to sponsor football than an A-10 football conference starting up. Did someone really bring up the idea of VCU and Loyola (Chicago) football? LMAO


Conference memberships at this level revolve more around all-sports than they do FCS football specifically. Maybe America East football happens but as far as the Atlantic 10 resurrecting football to try and compete with the CAA in that sport, I don't see it.

NY Crusader, I've enjoyed your posts for years and even just now, between these two separate quotes, appreciated the back-and-forth you had w/DFW re: Howard. Informative stuff as usual. But thinking the AE is much more likely to add football than the A-10? Or that a resurrected A-10 conference couldn't compete against the CAA in football? Ehhh... That part, as well as the needless shot on Sister Jean's school, lost me!

First of all, the Ramblers rock!
Second of all, I do think that one day down the line both the AE and A-10 will sponsor football. Here's my breakdown:

As of now, America East has four members (Maine, UNH, Bryant, Albany) playing scholarship FCS. And that's about it.

As of now, A-10 has four members (URI, Fordham, Duquesne, Richmond) playing scholarship FCS. And the A-10 has three members playing club ball, two members in the PFL and one member in the FBS. Not that I'm saying any of those other schools would ever be part of a new A-10 league. In fact I’ve already suggested the 6, 7 or 8 members that could conceivably be part of a new A-10 FCS lineup and none came from the club/PFL/FBS ranks. Simply saying those other schools are out there too. That’s just a fact is all. It’s also a fact that the A-10 has already announced it’s looking for a 16th member. My hope is that 16th member is an FCS scholarship school. If not, then my hope is the Big East takes a non-football school and a future A-10 opening goes to an FCS scholarship school.

Whether it be W&M, or your Crusaders, or the Blue Hens, I’d be happy with any of them getting a future invite. But, certain MAAC and MVC hoop schools are out there too, so we’ll see…

However it all plays itself out, I do think one day A-10 football and AE football, most like with the help of some NE10 teams out of D-II, will both happen. To me at least, only one of the two would come with fewer hurdles, far more teams wanting to join and an ability to blow a weakening CAA out of the water. Once the A-10 makes that next expansion move, then we'll see where this is going (or not) but I have my fingers "crossed."

[Sitting Bull]

NY Crusader, I've enjoyed your posts for years and even just now, between these two separate quotes, appreciated the back-and-forth you had w/DFW re: Howard. Informative stuff as usual. But thinking the AE is much more likely to add football than the A-10? Or that a resurrected A-10 conference couldn't compete against the CAA in football? Ehhh... That part, as well as the needless shot on Sister Jean's school, lost me!

First of all, the Ramblers rock!
Second of all, I do think that one day down the line both the AE and A-10 will sponsor football. Here's my breakdown:

As of now, America East has four members (Maine, UNH, Bryant, Albany) playing scholarship FCS. And that's about it.

As of now, A-10 has four members (URI, Fordham, Duquesne, Richmond) playing scholarship FCS. And the A-10 has three members playing club ball, two members in the PFL and one member in the FBS. Not that I'm saying any of those other schools would ever be part of a new A-10 league. In fact IÂ’ve already suggested the 6, 7 or 8 members that could conceivably be part of a new A-10 FCS lineup and none came from the club/PFL/FBS ranks. Simply saying those other schools are out there too. ThatÂ’s just a fact is all. ItÂ’s also a fact that the A-10 has already announced itÂ’s looking for a 16th member. My hope is that 16th member is an FCS scholarship school. If not, then my hope is the Big East takes a non-football school and a future A-10 opening goes to an FCS scholarship school.

Whether it be W&M, or your Crusaders, or the Blue Hens, IÂ’d be happy with any of them getting a future invite. But, certain MAAC and MVC hoop schools are out there too, so weÂ’ll seeÂ…

However it all plays itself out, I do think one day A-10 football and AE football, most like with the help of some NE10 teams out of D-II, will both happen. To me at least, only one of the two would come with fewer hurdles, far more teams wanting to join and an ability to blow a weakening CAA out of the water. Once the A-10 makes that next expansion move, then we'll see where this is going (or not) but I have my fingers "crossed."

LOL, “A weakening CAA”. How many prognostications keep flowing on the CAAs demise.

Keep thinking (or hoping I guess) but the CAA just solidified a core now of 9 members, all sports including football. If UAlbany comes aboard as expected, that makes 10. Before the expansion started this January, there were only 5 all sports/football members. That was a vulnerable spot. The CAA executed a solution.

The wind is blowing the other way. You may not like some of the new members, may not like a footprint NY to NC - but no question, the CAA just strengthened its position, not weakened. There was a strategy and execution, something youÂ’re not seeing in the AE and PL. And these ongoing comments of W&M, Delaware, Richmond and Villanova departing for arguably lower athletic leagues is a fantasy. W&M and Delaware have built as core members a league that works for the goals and mindset of both. Villanova and Richmond are sucker fish in football with no loyalty other than to be in the best FCS league they can. ThatÂ’s in the CAA with their biggest respective rival.

if there is a New England breakaway in football, perhaps they can merge with the NEC (Maine, UNH). I think Rhode Island would actually take the approach of Villanova and Richmond and stick in the CAA - or just drop football altogether. The A10 is a basketball league, period. There are no serious football aspirations there that a couple canÂ’t just better off stay hooked with the CAA.

[The Boogie Down]

IMO, were Colgate to move, it would have to be with Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross. Some awfully old rivalries there. Also, I believe the Patriot League has been a great home for Colgate. If Fordham and Georgetown see greener pastures elsewhere, that is their decision.

Fordham and Georgetown do not see greener pastures elsewhere but that's only by default. No way the insulated bubble that is the Ivy League is ever expanding. The CAA lost JMU, panicked and created a mess in raiding the Big South and MEAC. Those conferences have been weakened in the process. The NEC is still only a couple of nice pieces and a bunch of minnows. So what's left? A PL that, according to Sagarin's conference ratings, has tumbled over the past 4/5 years. Not that it was ever that high to begin with. A PL that seems okay with teams playing by different rules. A PL that seems to be looking the other way while Bucknell basically stops even trying. The Patsies are Patsier than ever. For the first time ever, three out of the "Core Four" members are simultaneously going through different levels of futility. But thanks to the state of Northeast/Mid-Atlantic FCS football as a whole (the region's FBS facsimile hasn't been too hot over the last few decades either), there really are no greener pastures elsewhere anymore. The only "greener pasture" I see would be in another conference stepping in and resurrecting football....

[The Boogie Down]

LOL, “A weakening CAA”. How many prognostications keep flowing on the CAAs demise.

Keep thinking (or hoping I guess) but the CAA just solidified a core now of 9 members, all sports including football. If UAlbany comes aboard as expected, that makes 10. Before the expansion started this January, there were only 5 all sports/football members. That was a vulnerable spot. The CAA executed a solution.

The wind is blowing the other way. You may not like some of the new members, may not like a footprint NY to NC - but no question, the CAA just strengthened its position, not weakened. There was a strategy and execution, something youÂ’re not seeing in the AE and PL. And these ongoing comments of W&M, Delaware, Richmond and Villanova departing for arguably lower athletic leagues is a fantasy. W&M and Delaware have built as core members a league that works for the goals and mindset of both. Villanova and Richmond are sucker fish in football with no loyalty other than to be in the best FCS league they can. ThatÂ’s in the CAA with their biggest respective rival.

if there is a New England breakaway in football, perhaps they can merge with the NEC (Maine, UNH). I think Rhode Island would actually take the approach of Villanova and Richmond and stick in the CAA - or just drop football altogether. The A10 is a basketball league, period. There are no serious football aspirations there that a couple canÂ’t just better off stay hooked with the CAA.


Lemme know when you want to compare CAA conference ratings to what it was 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. To be fair, I'm not expecting powerhouses like Campbell/Hampton to kill it on day one. We don't hafta track things for this season or next, but lemme know when you think the CAA is ready for any comparisons.

[Sitting Bull]

Lemme know when you want to compare CAA conference ratings to what it was 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. To be fair, I'm not expecting powerhouses like Campbell/Hampton to kill it on day one. We don't hafta track things for this season or next, but lemme know when you think the CAA is ready for any comparisons.

So you’re changing the subject to basketball? Or are we still talking your mythical collapse of the CAA.

Everyone gets there is a pecking order in realignment. When the CAA gets plucked, they pull in new members from the AE, So Con, MAAC and Big South among others. I don’t think that’s making your point.

So if we’re talking basketball and league comparisons vs other leagues, is the CAA any different than the A10 in that regard? Do you think the A10 hasn’t dropped as well? They have lost Xavier, Butler, Charlotte and Temple among others. They backfilled with the CAA and So Con - VCU the big pluck. Mason is actually weaker than they were back in the CAA.

The CAA still ranks in the higher tier of mid majors in bbl, well above the PL and AE. So if there’s been a drop, it’s certainly not to AE, MAAC or PL levels.

Or are you referencing football? Sure, let’s compare how the CAA has fared vs the PL over the last 20 years. I’d be willing to bet the PL has slid substantially more than the CAA. The CAA is still among the top three leagues in FCS - that’s after seeing UMass, UConn, ODU and JMU try FBS. That’s not going to plummet by adding Monmouth, NC A&T and Campbell. Just because you aren’t familiar with these schools doesn’t mean they aren’t smart adds. I heard the same comments when Elon came aboard.

The CAA is in arguably the strongest shape it’s been possibly since it was created. You can keep your fingers crossed though, to what end, not sure.

[The Boogie Down]

So you’re changing the subject to basketball?

No, I'm not.

Except to briefly mention in passing that Mason wasn't a good get for the A-10 (and good to see you come to the same conclusion), my points have been pretty clear. On the field, CAA football is a much weaker product than it's ever been. Much-much weaker to be more exact. Oh, and it's only gonna go down. Not sure where your general b-ball talk, or specific A-10 b-ball talk, or your football comparison to the Patsies, all came from but my point is clear. CAA football is waaaay weaker on the field than it's ever been. And, it's only going to get worse.

But don't worry.

If-if-IF W&M is lucky enough to receive an A-10 invite then your Tribe will celebrate. Soon later your Tribe will also wonder why are they stuck playing Big South/MEAC football when they can instead be part of an A-10 football conference. Good luck xpeacex

[Sitting Bull]

No, I'm not.

Except to briefly mention in passing that Mason wasn't a good get for the A-10 (and good to see you come to the same conclusion), my points have been pretty clear. On the field, CAA football is a much weaker product than it's ever been. Much-much weaker to be more exact. Oh, and it's only gonna go down. Not sure where your general b-ball talk, or specific A-10 b-ball talk, or your football comparison to the Patsies, all came from but my point is clear. CAA football is waaaay weaker on the field than it's ever been. And, it's only going to get worse.

But don't worry.

If-if-IF W&M is lucky enough to receive an A-10 invite then your Tribe will celebrate. Soon later your Tribe will also wonder why are they stuck playing Big South/MEAC football when they can instead be part of an A-10 football conference. Good luck xpeacex

I don’t have any issues with W&M, the CAA as a home or any other FCS league. If you do, can’t help that.

You’re the one that seems to have your pants in a knot but not sure why. Anyway, good luck to Fordham.

[DFW HOYA]

So what's left? A PL that, according to Sagarin's conference ratings, has tumbled over the past 4/5 years. Not that it was ever that high to begin with. A PL that seems okay with teams playing by different rules. A PL that seems to be looking the other way while Bucknell basically stops even trying. The Patsies are Patsier than ever.

Few conferences have seven teams on four distinct tracks:

Spend more money, schedule tough opponents, compete for the playoffs (Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross)
Spend money, schedule old friends, but playoffs are no longer important (Lehigh, Lafayette)
Spend a little less money, schedule one tough opponent, but no hope for playoffs (Bucknell)
Spend a lot less money, no tough opponents, and still no hope for playoffs (Georgetown)

[Go...gate]

Few conferences have seven teams on four distinct tracks:

Spend more money, schedule tough opponents, compete for the playoffs (Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross)
Spend money, schedule old friends, but playoffs are no longer important (Lehigh, Lafayette)
Spend a little less money, schedule one tough opponent, but no hope for playoffs (Bucknell)
Spend a lot less money, no tough opponents, and still no hope for playoffs (Georgetown)

The heart went out of Bucknell's program - as well as the school's commitment to its success - when Tom Gadd died.

IMO, Georgetown is simply an enigma.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If Colgate basketball can become a winning program, Bucknell football can do it with the right leadership.

[KPSUL]

When discussing CAA and CAAFB expansion and the advantages and disadvantages of adding the newest members, it is important to understand that they are two distinct entities. Here is a link to an official page of the CAA website that offers a concise explanation of the CAA and CAAFB:

https://caasports.com/sports/2014/5/16/caabio.aspx

[Doc QB]

Well, the athletic facility arms race has hit Lehigh and the Goodman campus with an anonymous gift providing an indoor football field, renovated weight room, and locker rooms.
Football alums got this email this morning. First good news out of LU with regard to football in awhile.
Holy Cross wont be the only PL school with such a football facility. We can take bets on which happens first, the indoor facility opens or Chesney moves on.xthumbsupx
Apologies of the link doesn't work.

https://lehighsports.com/news/2022/8/16/general-8-million-gift-launches-athletics-capital-renovations-and-expansion.aspx

[RichH2]

Few conferences have seven teams on four distinct tracks:

Spend more money, schedule tough opponents, compete for the playoffs (Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross)
Spend money, schedule old friends, but playoffs are no longer important (Lehigh, Lafayette)
Spend a little less money, schedule one tough opponent, but no hope for playoffs (Bucknell)
Spend a lot less money, no tough opponents, and still no hope for playoffs (Georgetown)
Not far off my current view of the PL. Pards bet the house on a name coach. Lost. rebuild now with an actual HC. Results TBD
Lehigh vastly underestimated the impact of Andy's last 3 yrs. As did I honestly. Any new coach faced a total rebuild in culture,coaches and players. Gilmore ,not my choice,but he has done a good job rebuilding the culture. Recruiting has done well raising the overall talent level. Problem is most of the talent is underclassmen.
The major issue has been and remains the OL
Yeah,I know the OC has been a huge Factor. He was once very good. Can he be again?

[Gater]

That's great news on the Lehigh upgrades. Colgate is doing something similar. 25 mil from one donor really helping to move this forward quickly.

https://thirdcenturycampaign.colgate.edu/funding-initiatives/reid-athletic-center-renovation

Agreed on the comparison between Bucknell football and Colgate basketball. Colgate currently plays in (basically) a high school gym. But they have a ridiculously good coach who has them winning 20 games a year. Not sure if Colgate gets such a gigantic gift towards a new basketball arena, football suites, training center, etc. without him.

[Bill]

Well, the athletic facility arms race has hit Lehigh and the Goodman campus with an anonymous gift providing an indoor football field, renovated weight room, and locker rooms.
Football alums got this email this morning. First good news out of LU with regard to football in awhile.
Holy Cross wont be the only PL school with such a football facility. We can take bets on which happens first, the indoor facility opens or Chesney moves on.xthumbsupx
Apologies of the link doesn't work.

https://lehighsports.com/news/2022/8/16/general-8-million-gift-launches-athletics-capital-renovations-and-expansion.aspx

WOW....it's about time. Also impressed by the "94,000 sq. feet of turf" comment....a football field is about 58,000 sq feet..which means even if baseball is taken into account, this place is going to be big.

[centraljerseycat]

Well, the athletic facility arms race has hit Lehigh and the Goodman campus with an anonymous gift providing an indoor football field, renovated weight room, and locker rooms.
Football alums got this email this morning. First good news out of LU with regard to football in awhile.
Holy Cross wont be the only PL school with such a football facility. We can take bets on which happens first, the indoor facility opens or Chesney moves on.xthumbsupx
Apologies of the link doesn't work.

https://lehighsports.com/news/2022/8/16/general-8-million-gift-launches-athletics-capital-renovations-and-expansion.aspx

Wow that's impressive! Certainly doesn't sound like a school that will continue to accept mediocrity. A competitive Lehigh is good for East Coast FCS football

[Go...gate]

That's great news on the Lehigh upgrades. Colgate is doing something similar. 25 mil from one donor really helping to move this forward quickly.

https://thirdcenturycampaign.colgate.edu/funding-initiatives/reid-athletic-center-renovation

Agreed on the comparison between Bucknell football and Colgate basketball. Colgate currently plays in (basically) a high school gym. But they have a ridiculously good coach who has them winning 20 games a year. Not sure if Colgate gets such a gigantic gift towards a new basketball arena, football suites, training center, etc. without him.

That $25M gift really helps! And Cotterell will finally get some significant attention, too.

[bonarae]

Do we need to wait until next week to have one of us release a separate pick'em for the PL week 1?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Just watched Notre Dame vs Navy game from 1993 which was an ABC national broadcast. ND was #2 and this was the game before the showdown against #1 FSU. With that context....

At halftime John Saunders has a special Ivy League scoreboard update with little tidbits for each of the 4 games that day. ABC shows very few lower division scores but the ones they do highlight, Boston U vs UNH (Saunders makes it point to mention BU is undefeated and ranked #10 in 1-AA), Lehigh vs Holy Cross, W&M vs JMU and eventual national champ Youngstown State vs Buffalo....

[Go...gate]

Just watched Notre Dame vs Navy game from 1993 which was an ABC national broadcast. ND was #2 and this was the game before the showdown against #1 FSU. With that context....

At halftime John Saunders has a special Ivy League scoreboard update with little tidbits for each of the 4 games that day. ABC shows very few lower division scores but the ones they do highlight, Boston U vs UNH (Saunders makes it point to mention BU is undefeated and ranked #10 in 1-AA), Lehigh vs Holy Cross, W&M vs JMU and eventual national champ Youngstown State vs Buffalo....

A rough period for Colgate, but a good one for Princeton.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

A rough period for Colgate, but a good one for Princeton.

Keith Elias was a great RB. I had the privilege of being a young kid and watching him run over and around Lehigh at Palmer Stadium in 1993. I was curious as to just how good Princeton was in 1993, finished 8-2 were ranked #24 when they beat Lehigh mid-October and spent the entire second half of the season ranked before losing the season finale to Jay Fiedler and Dartmouth. They got as high as #16 but lost to #21 Penn 30-14 at Franklin Field. The Quakers would finish the season 10-0 and ranked 16th. Lehigh finished 7-4 and claimed their first PL Title. Also notched their first ever win over HC this day (day of ND vs Navy). They were 0-7-1 prior to 1993 against the Crusaders....

[Go Green]

Keith Elias was a great RB. I had the privilege of being a young kid and watching him run over and around Lehigh at Palmer Stadium in 1993. I was curious as to just how good Princeton was in 1993, finished 8-2 were ranked #24 when they beat Lehigh mid-October and spent the entire second half of the season ranked before losing the season finale to Jay Fiedler and Dartmouth. They got as high as #16 but lost to #21 Penn 30-14 at Franklin Field. The Quakers would finish the season 10-0 and ranked 16th. Lehigh finished 7-4 and claimed their first PL Title. Also notched their first ever win over HC this day (day of ND vs Navy). They were 0-7-1 prior to 1993 against the Crusaders....

Elias didn't help himself by giving Penn a lot of bulletin board material that week.

Penn and Needles - Sports Illustrated Vault | SI.com (https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/11/15/penn-and-needles-their-academics-belittled-the-quakers-came-up-big-against-princeton-in-the-ivy-leagues-showcase-game)

[DFW HOYA]

Question to the group: how does SAT-optional affect football recruiting and admissions at your school?

Among the 15 Ivy and Patriot schools, 14 are test optional through at least 2023, and some indefinitely. Harvard is test optional through 2026. How is this affecting recruiting, banding, and/or admission if SAT/ACT scores aren't required? I can't see a lot of coaches encouraging recruits to send in scores if they don't have to.

The only school that stands contradictory to this is Georgetown--SAT's are required, no Common Application, no Questbridge. Its inbound recruiting class took a real downturn this year and an uptick in prep school kids with limited football experience, which I think is a result of higher SAT scores still required for admission.

Meanwhile, this preview predicts more of the same for the PL, where hope is a four letter word.

https://theanalyst.com/na/2022/08/fcs-college-football-preview-patriot-league/

[RichH2]

Question to the group: how does SAT-optional affect football recruiting and admissions at your school?

Among the 15 Ivy and Patriot schools, 14 are test optional through at least 2023, and some indefinitely. Harvard is test optional through 2026. How is this affecting recruiting, banding, and/or admission if SAT/ACT scores aren't required? I can't see a lot of coaches encouraging recruits to send in scores if they don't have to.

The only school that stands contradictory to this is Georgetown--SAT's are required, no Common Application, no Questbridge. Its inbound recruiting class took a real downturn this year and an uptick in prep school kids with limited football experience, which I think is a result of higher SAT scores still required for admission.

Meanwhile, this preview predicts more of the same for the PL, where hope is a four letter word.

https://theanalyst.com/na/2022/08/fcs-college-football-preview-patriot-league/

Hard to quantify the actual impact yet. LU has had 2 excellent classes. Albeit lost 3 prime recruits to transfer. The current frosh class more of a mixed bag. Fewer top level kids,more projects. Why? Most likely a schollie squeeze after a string of large classes.
Little doubt that tests optional decision gives coaches a bigger pool of prospects.
Not sure how much a test optional approach would help Hoyas given the higher admission standards. A more flexible Admissions Dept and more funding remain as the keys.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure how much a test optional approach would help Hoyas given the higher admission standards. A more flexible Admissions Dept and more funding remain as the keys.

Georgetown has zero plans to ever go test optional, but consider this scenario. Two applicants come before Georgetown admissions:

3.8 GPA, 1510 SAT, Deerfield, second team all-NEPSAC
3.8 GPA, 1110 SAT, Bergen Catholic, second team all state

The Deerfield kid gets admitted...maybe. Now, the same two applicants come before a test-optional PL school:

3.8 GPA, Deerfield, second team all-NEPSAC
3.8 GPA, Bergen Catholic, second team all state

Both get admitted.

[RichH2]

Georgetown has zero plans to ever go test optional, but consider this scenario. Two applicants come before Georgetown admissions:

3.8 GPA, 1510 SAT, Deerfield, second team all-NEPSAC
3.8 GPA, 1110 SAT, Bergen Catholic, second team all state

The Deerfield kid gets admitted...maybe. Now, the same two applicants come before a test-optional PL school:

3.8 GPA, Deerfield, second team all-NEPSAC
3.8 GPA, Bergen Catholic, second team all state

Both get admitted.

Good point. Admittedly that would help but how much would GU allow?
Given test optional at least for a few years,I wonder what the PL is doing now with the AI and banding?

[ngineer]

HC will drop a few OOC games. Yale beats HC. Check out their football alumni blog, with a report from Reno touting 23 fifth year seniors. Not sure how many actually contribute, but I doubt they bring back that many without them being relevant players on the two deep. How many 5th years does HC have? Probably could count them on one hand, have fingers to spare, like much of the rest of the PL.

While I am personally not ready to anoint the Chesney-Crusaders competitive nationally, they are likely the class of the PL. But that just doesnt say much these days (tallest midget?). Time for them to win all the OOC games, build on their successes last year, give them the crown they will have earned, show in the playoffs, and hope the rest of the league takes notice and ups their game, too.

The Lehigh board is as quiet as I have ever seen it. Most posts one response in thread, about a transfer. No juice, no enthusiasm, nothing. Not sure if its a Gilmore thing, smoldering apathy, something. While we have some decent players, no game changers on offense, and a fairly pedestrian staff with a fair amount of turnover. I share Southsider's lack of optimism, and I've been going to games since the late 70's as a kid, my dad a fb alum from late 60's, I played there in early 90's, been connected to program for several decades and this is as bad as its ever been in my time.

If the wealthy of the P5 create super conferences, you will just have a smaller true I-A/FBS/whatever, maybe some smaller P5 and G5 will become some type of I-AA/FCS, the I-AA/FCS stalwarts become a sort of D-II of pre-1978 I-AA...some move up, some dont. Some D-II move up, some dont. D3 stays the same. In the end, you'll still have four subdivisions just with some shuffling, and the superconf FBS being rich akin to the 60's with no scholarship caps.


I agree that there has been a sense of 'letdown' since the problems associated with Coen's demise and the pandemic. However, I sense a general sense of 'malaise' throughout the PL, and not just in football. Students just aren't that "into it" anymore as there has been a big cultural/social change. The games are now on TV/iPads etc., so those with casual interest can watch and drink in the comfort of their frats/dorms/apts. Same goes to some alums. However, I have been out to see the scrimmages and Lehigh does have some decent skill players that have been recruited the past three years. The frosh QB from AZ has a very nice arm and accurate. Perri will start at QB and shows increased confidence and leadership. There are several very good RBs, along with the return of Gaige Garcia who can be a force, now healed. There is some depth and speed at WR. Defense rose last year and really showed signs of continued growth. Secondary and DL is experienced. The key will be the OL. Very thin last year, injuries caused a lot of disruption to the unit. They've added some beef, but the depth will be young. The TE Snyder showed great hands and the ability to get open, and by using him effectively can really open the options on offense. There is a good competition going for P/PK. The frosh from ND-Green Pond has a heck of a leg >50yds, though needs to develop consistency. Last year, the team visibly grew in the second half of the season. They gave Holy Cross a tough game and beat Fordham on the field, but lost on the scoreboard. Granted, the final three wins were not against upper echelon teams, but they did help establish a new mentality within the team. I am not picking Lehigh to win the PL, but I will not be surprised if they win four games in the league and possibly pull off an upset or two. With a lot of youth, I won't be surprised if they stub their toes and lose to someone they should beat. Regarding the OOC schedule, I see a couple games that could be in the win column: Richmond, Cornell, and Monmouth. I will be pleased if we can finish 7-4/6-5 and 4-2 in the PL.

[ngineer]

IMO, were Colgate to move, it would have to be with Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross. Some awfully old rivalries there. Also, I believe the Patriot League has been a great home for Colgate. If Fordham and Georgetown see greener pastures elsewhere, that is their decision.


Agreed.

[Go...gate]

Georgetown has zero plans to ever go test optional, but consider this scenario. Two applicants come before Georgetown admissions:

3.8 GPA, 1510 SAT, Deerfield, second team all-NEPSAC
3.8 GPA, 1110 SAT, Bergen Catholic, second team all state

The Deerfield kid gets admitted...maybe. Now, the same two applicants come before a test-optional PL school:

3.8 GPA, Deerfield, second team all-NEPSAC
3.8 GPA, Bergen Catholic, second team all state

Both get admitted.

Sounds like you have a major problem in your Admissions Office.

[ngineer]

Villanova is in a populated area and consistently fields a very competitive team, yet always near the bottom of the CAA in attendance. Nova deserves better.

Not sure if they "deserve" better, but they do have a lot of other competition between professional sports, other nearby colleges and a lot of high schools. It's a pain in rear going to a game there in terms of convenient parking. I think a lot of schools face the same competition with high school sports scheduling at the same time. 'Nova's student body is about 6,500 and few teams bring a lot of and along. Plus, I forgot about the competition from TV/Internet access to the games and all the other distractions on our gizmos. We have become a society of participating from afar. People do not go to such social gatherings as they did decades ago. Times they are a changin'...

[DFW HOYA]

I think it's easier to blame the students than blame the product. Students are attracted to quality and will show up for a good product--Texas A&M announced it has sold over 37,000 student season tickets this fall. Repeat: 37,000 student season tickets. Why? Because the SEC is a big deal and they don't want to be experiencing it at a TV set.

The Patriot League football experience is woefully lacking: just two schools even bother to invest in a marching band. There's very little for fans to do at most games and students see this and vote by going elsewhere. Put a better (read=winning) product out there and people will come.

[ngineer]

With the admission of a blatant "historical" and "fundamental" agenda used to create such an alignment; this would be my hope for a strong, well rounded, forward thinking Northeast/Mid-Atlantic athletic conference. Sorry Bucknell, Georgetown, Stony Brook, Towson etc. Richmond and W&M imo should be part of the SoCon although both clearly "fit" the PL/high-end CAA academic profile....

Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Holy Cross
Villanova
Fordham
Delaware
UNH
Maine
Rhode Island

Flagship, traditional New England institutions, elite privates and Delaware (:p) is the type of balance, "diversity", needed imo moving forward in order to keep everyone as honest as possible when it comes to "success". This would be a damn good "all but hoops" athletic conference imo. Honestly, add Vermont for hoops....maybe Bucknell too xsmiley_wix

While Bucknell has seriously struggled in football the past 25 years, they have an excellent athletic program and won the PL President's trophy more than any other school. Academically, it belongs with all listed.

[Bill]

I think it's easier to blame the students than blame the product. Students are attracted to quality and will show up for a good product--Texas A&M announced it has sold over 37,000 student season tickets this fall. Repeat: 37,000 student season tickets. Why? Because the SEC is a big deal and they don't want to be experiencing it at a TV set.

The Patriot League football experience is woefully lacking: just two schools even bother to invest in a marching band. There's very little for fans to do at most games and students see this and vote by going elsewhere. Put a better (read=winning) product out there and people will come.
DFW,
While you make several good points - and I agree with you - I think A&M (or ANY SEC school other than Vandy) is a tough comparison, because the enrollments of ALL the PL combined don't equal one of the SEC schools....

[ngineer]

I think it's easier to blame the students than blame the product. Students are attracted to quality and will show up for a good product--Texas A&M announced it has sold over 37,000 student season tickets this fall. Repeat: 37,000 student season tickets. Why? Because the SEC is a big deal and they don't want to be experiencing it at a TV set.

The Patriot League football experience is woefully lacking: just two schools even bother to invest in a marching band. There's very little for fans to do at most games and students see this and vote by going elsewhere. Put a better (read=winning) product out there and people will come.

You forget you are comparing two different cultures. No question winning will attract more people, but the nature of the social interaction is night and day.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW,
While you make several good points - and I agree with you - I think A&M (or ANY SEC school other than Vandy) is a tough comparison, because the enrollments of ALL the PL combined don't equal one of the SEC schools....

It's less about enrollment and more about demand. Lehigh football is arguably at a 60 year low. Students realize this, so why should they get excited about it? Georgetown students routinely no-show football and volleyball each fall for soccer. Why? Because they are nationally ranked. If they were 2-8 the students would walk past it and do something else.

Where are the thousands of UConn students knocking down the door to see the Huskies in 2022? In 2010, they averaged 38,248 fans overall per game, 95 percent attendance at Rentschler Field, and sold out three of six home games en route to the Fiesta Bowl. After losing to Utah State, the home opener with Central Connecticut figures to be sparse.

[Bill]

It's less about enrollment and more about demand. Lehigh football is arguably at a 60 year low. Students realize this, so why should they get excited about it? Georgetown students routinely no-show football and volleyball each fall for soccer. Why? Because they are nationally ranked. If they were 2-8 the students would walk past it and do something else.

Where are the thousands of UConn students knocking down the door to see the Huskies in 2022? In 2010, they averaged 38,248 fans overall per game, 95 percent attendance at Rentschler Field, and sold out three of six home games en route to the Fiesta Bowl. After losing to Utah State, the home opener with Central Connecticut figures to be sparse.
Well...let's agree to disagree . UConn is also a tough choice, because their field is nowhere near campus...which is an issue for me. Lehigh is at a low...but I don't think the days of 100% student attendance at football games at PL schools ever existed...and even if all 5,000 students showed up, there would be 11,000 more seats to fill. Winning and competitive product is very important to put fannies in the seats - but even when Lehigh was rolling in the late 90's - early 00's, the only games near sell out was Lafayette.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well...let's agree to disagree . UConn is also a tough choice, because their field is nowhere near campus...which is an issue for me. Lehigh is at a low...but I don't think the days of 100% student attendance at football games at PL schools ever existed...and even if all 5,000 students showed up, there would be 11,000 more seats to fill. Winning and competitive product is very important to put fannies in the seats - but even when Lehigh was rolling in the late 90's - early 00's, the only games near sell out was Lafayette.

Not true about the late 1990s and early 2000s attendance figures....

The 2000 game against Bucknell was an official sellout, 16,000 plus. (16,906)
1998 (13,432), 2000 (13,316), 2002 (15,023) and 2004 (13,929) Colgate games were all in the 13k, 14k and 15k range.

There were numerous other games in the 12k to 14k range in that period too. Towson 1999, Penn 2000, Princeton and Harvard in 2002 also stand out as big crowds....

Lehigh also drew VERY well for road games. The crowd they brought down to Delaware in 1999 for the regular season win had to be in the 5k-7k range. Same with the support at Bucknell and Colgate back then. Those games in Hamilton were rocking in large part to the amount of fans Lehigh brought.

Holy Cross is on a nice 4-peat run but doing so with undefeated seasons in 3/4 of them is a feat that will NEVER be duplicated. One of the more incredible runs in FCS history imo.....

https://img.newspapers.com/img/img?institutionId=0&user=0&id=278784882&clippingId=59558556&width=557&height=371&crop=0_996_3825_2598&rotation=0

From 20000

This may be heresy, but a growing number of Lehigh fans and players think Lehigh-Colgate is as important as, or perhaps more important than, the ancient tug-of-war with Lafayette.


Lehigh attracted nearly 17,000 fans to a showdown against Bucknell two weeks ago, the largest non-Lafayette crowd ever at Goodman Stadium, and expects about 13,000 fans Saturday for the 12:35 kickoff.

https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-2000-11-03-3334416-story.html

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I found this really intersting...

Lehigh's 1999 attendance home and away. This is rather impressive imo...

@ Fordham 4,177
Monmouth 10,477 (people had no idea who Monmouth was in 1999)
@ Princeton 20,941
Columbia 10,829 (the definition of a cupcake in 1999)
@ Dartmouth 6,109
@ Delaware 22,032
Holy Cross 13,181
@ Colgate 6,228
@ Bucknell 3,849
Lafayette 16,000

[RichH2]

Agreed.


Sounds like you have a major problem in your Admissions Office.


I found this really intersting...

Lehigh's 1999 attendance home and away. This is rather impressive imo...

@ Fordham 4,177
Monmouth 10,477 (people had no idea who Monmouth was in 1999)
@ Princeton 20,941
Columbia 10,829 (the definition of a cupcake in 1999)
@ Dartmouth 6,109
@ Delaware 22,032
Holy Cross 13,181
@ Colgate 6,228
@ Bucknell 3,849
Lafayette 16,000

Malaise is an apt caption for LU fans. Why? We have had horrendous results since the last 2 yrs of Andy's time.Not only bad but boring with Os that couldn't score. A beautiful but inconvenient Stadium. Draconian tailgating rules. A trifecta of obstacles for attendance. And it's on TV anyway.
Hank Small's teams weren't that good overall but AirLehigh scored bunches and made games exciting. A different time true but fans will come for that excitement.
This year.O has the skills to score. WR TE and RB are all deep and talented.. QB ? Perri can be that guy. Make his reads and get the ball to his talent.
An OL? Perhaps. 4 starters but virtually no experienced depth.
First few games can make or break this squad. Don't expect many Ws in first 6 games. Perhaps 3 but Ls must be competitive.

[Sader87]

FCS level (and even non P5 FBS) football is a tough sell for in-game attendance these days for many of the reasons we've stated here and on other threads the last decade or so. Holy Cross being a smallish D1 school, has always needed the support of "subway alums" in the Greater Woo region to push attendance into the 15-20K for games at Fitton. The current admin recognizes this and has tried to improve the game-day experience at Fitton, having games at Polar Park (Red Sox AAA venue in Woo) etc etc. to engage that population.

That being said, outside of "special occasion" games: Homecoming, Family Weekend, games at Yankee, Polar or Fenway etc having an actual winning/exciting program is the biggest draw to actually attend games in person, agreed.

[DFW HOYA]

That being said, outside of "special occasion" games: Homecoming, Family Weekend, games at Yankee, Polar or Fenway etc having an actual winning/exciting program is the biggest draw to actually attend games in person, agreed.

That's fine if you're Holy Cross, but the bulk of the league can't sell a winning/exciting program. How do you fix this?

Lehigh: Last winning season: 2016, 15-33 since
Bucknell: Last winning season: 2014, 20-50 since
Georgetown: Last winning season: 2011, 26-68 since
Lafayette: Last full winning season: 2009, 39-87 since

[Baron Sardonicus]

That's fine if you're Holy Cross, but the bulk of the league can't sell a winning/exciting program. How do you fix this?

Lehigh: Last winning season: 2016, 15-33 since
Bucknell: Last winning season: 2014, 20-50 since
Georgetown: Last winning season: 2011, 26-68 since
Lafayette: Last full winning season: 2009, 39-87 since

You just demonstrated Sader's point. The "bulk" of the league hasn't had winning seasons lately. They can't attract flies.

[RichH2]

You just demonstrated Sader's point. The "bulk" of the league hasn't had winning seasons lately. They can't attract flies.


That's fine if you're Holy Cross, but the bulk of the league can't sell a winning/exciting program. How do you fix this?

Lehigh: Last winning season: 2016, 15-33 since
Bucknell: Last winning season: 2014, 20-50 since
Georgetown: Last winning season: 2011, 26-68 since
Lafayette: Last full winning season: 2009, 39-87 since

Yup. The " What did schollies do to football" threads abound. Winning teams draw support and fans. Losing teams don't. Each school has its varying causes. All but GU are in various stages of rebuilding. If any are successful,we'll see what it does for attendance.
Wasn't that long ago,the PL was a factor on the national scene. NEC is more of a factor now than the PL.

[Bill]

Not true about the late 1990s and early 2000s attendance figures....

The 2000 game against Bucknell was an official sellout, 16,000 plus. (16,906)
1998 (13,432), 2000 (13,316), 2002 (15,023) and 2004 (13,929) Colgate games were all in the 13k, 14k and 15k range.

There were numerous other games in the 12k to 14k range in that period too. Towson 1999, Penn 2000, Princeton and Harvard in 2002 also stand out as big crowds....

Lehigh also drew VERY well for road games. The crowd they brought down to Delaware in 1999 for the regular season win had to be in the 5k-7k range. Same with the support at Bucknell and Colgate back then. Those games in Hamilton were rocking in large part to the amount of fans Lehigh brought.

Holy Cross is on a nice 4-peat run but doing so with undefeated seasons in 3/4 of them is a feat that will NEVER be duplicated. One of the more incredible runs in FCS history imo.....

https://img.newspapers.com/img/img?institutionId=0&user=0&id=278784882&clippingId=59558556&width=557&height=371&crop=0_996_3825_2598&rotation=0

From 20000




https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-2000-11-03-3334416-story.html

Go Lehigh TU Owl,
I don't dispute your attendance figures....heck, I was on the staff for two of those games!

Yes, 13,000 is impressive - but it's still really not close to a sell out. That's only about 81% full:D

[ngineer]

From 1998-2004 Lehigh had a juggernaut. Arguably the best period of Lehigh football since 1884 and attendance averaged 10-12,000. Even in the 'revival era' of 1971-1980, attendance was generally in the 8-10,000 range in 17,000+ Taylor Stadium, on campus and an easy roll down the Hill. Lehigh still travels the best of all PL teams, due to a strong alumni base. However, the base is aging and what is concerning is that the new classes have not experienced the bonding experience those games provided for the student body. Not only has the culture changed on campuses, but the culture within the student body changes. There seems to be less 'cross-pollination' between the general student body and the athletes. Many now live separately in off-campus arts. While I am not aware of any PL schools having "athletic dorms", I sense a segregation that has lead to greater disengagement between the general student body and athletes. Back in the 60's and 70's and I am sure prior to that, many students were in the stands cheering for their friends who they knew from classes and living together all week. Now, I think a good number of students do not know many of the athletes and in combination with the other hurdles to attendance, there is less incentive to attend. I don't disagree that putting a successful team on the field is an important element, but I don't know if it is the most important. Heck, when Lehigh had it's great basketball team with CJ McCollum, the only time Stabler Arena was full (5,800 cap.) was when Lafayette was home. The other games drew between 2,000-3,500. Lehigh's winningest sports program, wrestling, wrestles all but a few matches in cozy Grace Hall (1,900 cap). Rarely a sell out anymore, and student attendance is hardly more than a few hundred. So it's not just football. It's the culture.

[bonarae]

Meanwhile... just for some additional discussion...

How will you compare HBCUs' and Ivy/PL teams' commitments to football? xchinscratchx

[aceinthehole]

Where are the thousands of UConn students knocking down the door to see the Huskies in 2022? In 2010, they averaged 38,248 fans overall per game, 95 percent attendance at Rentschler Field, and sold out three of six home games en route to the Fiesta Bowl. After losing to Utah State, the home opener with Central Connecticut figures to be sparse.

Simple, the freshness and buzz of a new product wore off. And if course because they sucked.

With a new coach and some hope this year, they may get to 20k for CCSU this weekend. However, the number of free tickets floating out there is amazing. They are bleeding money like crazy. The finances are unsustainable without 2 guarantee games per season.

[caribbeanhen]

Simple, the freshness and buzz of a new product wore off. And if course because they sucked.

With a new coach and some hope this year, they may get to 20k for CCSU this weekend. However, the number of free tickets floating out there is amazing. They are bleeding money like crazy. The finances are unsustainable without 2 guarantee games per season.

Crazy RB Will Knight announced He had left UConn and re-enter the transfer portal.... again

[Franks Tanks]

Crazy RB Will Knight announced He had left UConn and re-enter the transfer portal.... again

I had to google, but holy cow!

ODU to Delaware to Garden City CC to UCONN to ?

Who would touch this kid at this point?

[caribbeanhen]

I had to google, but holy cow!

ODU to Delaware to Garden City CC to UCONN to ?

Who would touch this kid at this point?

He played one year at Delaware and was the best running back they have had since Omar Cuff

He is a talent and talent always gets a second and third chance but at this point, I don’t think anybody’s going to mess with him again

[crusader11]

Why'd he transfer from UD? I presume to get to an FBS school...why'd no one bite on him?

[DFW HOYA]

Meanwhile... just for some additional discussion...
How will you compare HBCUs' and Ivy/PL teams' commitments to football? xchinscratchx

HBCU's see football as essential to enrollment and engagement. With few exceptions, HBCU's get more media attention for football and halftime shows than any faculty or academic endeavors. In an era of declining college-age enrollment and fewer POC attending HBCU's, the football experience drives admissions (where schools like Jackson State and NC A&T continue to grow) and alumni engagement in the absence of annual giving (which is often 10% or less.)

The Ivies and five PL schools (absent the two below) see football as vestigial. It doesn't drive admissions, has limited alumni appeal outside one or two big games (H-Y, Leh/Laf) and probably wouldn't be something they would add if they had to today. The teams serve as a ties to better days in the past and one which is seen to be part of the shared legacy of their respective peers.

Fordham and Georgetown are neither of these and view football as a form of networking. Having severed their major college ties and wandering across decades of indifferent, small-college football prior to the PL, football doesn't bind them to peers and lacks any single event which is cross-generational. The lack of a gameday experience at these schools is stark even compared to the PL, much less the SWAC. No Fordham or Georgetown alumnus "identifies" with the PL the way a Lehigh or Princeton alumnus identifies with their leagues. Its selling point to the players and families is a form of enhanced networking for roles in certain industries (Wall Street, for one) where former players will be supportive resources for careers, and will be seen as likely donors in the future. Funding wise, the two schools are mirror opposites: Fordham spends too much on football for what it gets, and not enough on elevating basketball, while Georgetown spends too much on basketball for what it gets, and not enough on elevating football.

[ngineer]

Why'd he transfer from UD? I presume to get to an FBS school...why'd no one bite on him?

With this history, it's apparent that he's too high risk and high maintenance.

[ngineer]

HBCU's see football as essential to enrollment and engagement. With few exceptions, HBCU's get more media attention for football and halftime shows than any faculty or academic endeavors. In an era of declining college-age enrollment and fewer POC attending HBCU's, the football experience drives admissions (where schools like Jackson State and NC A&T continue to grow) and alumni engagement in the absence of annual giving (which is often 10% or less.)

The Ivies and five PL schools (absent the two below) see football as vestigial. It doesn't drive admissions, has limited alumni appeal outside one or two big games (H-Y, Leh/Laf) and probably wouldn't be something they would add if they had to today. The teams serve as a ties to better days in the past and one which is seen to be part of the shared legacy of their respective peers.

Fordham and Georgetown are neither of these and view football as a form of networking. Having severed their major college ties and wandering across decades of indifferent, small-college football prior to the PL, football doesn't bind them to peers and lacks any single event which is cross-generational. The lack of a gameday experience at these schools is stark even compared to the PL, much less the SWAC. No Fordham or Georgetown alumnus "identifies" with the PL the way a Lehigh or Princeton alumnus identifies with their leagues. Its selling point to the players and families is a form of enhanced networking for roles in certain industries (Wall Street, for one) where former players will be supportive resources for careers, and will be seen as likely donors in the future. Funding wise, the two schools are mirror opposites: Fordham spends too much on football for what it gets, and not enough on elevating basketball, while Georgetown spends too much on basketball for what it gets, and not enough on elevating football.

Can't speak to the HBCU experience, but as to the PL/IVY and Fordam/Gtown comparisons, I think you have it pretty good.

[caribbeanhen]

Why'd he transfer from UD? I presume to get to an FBS school...why'd no one bite on him?

I don’t know

but out of nowhere before the 2021 spring season he announced he was entering the transfer portal

Sources say it was because he flunked out basically

[Sader87]

From 1998-2004 Lehigh had a juggernaut. Arguably the best period of Lehigh football since 1884 and attendance averaged 10-12,000. Even in the 'revival era' of 1971-1980, attendance was generally in the 8-10,000 range in 17,000+ Taylor Stadium, on campus and an easy roll down the Hill. Lehigh still travels the best of all PL teams, due to a strong alumni base. However, the base is aging and what is concerning is that the new classes have not experienced the bonding experience those games provided for the student body. Not only has the culture changed on campuses, but the culture within the student body changes. There seems to be less 'cross-pollination' between the general student body and the athletes. Many now live separately in off-campus arts. While I am not aware of any PL schools having "athletic dorms", I sense a segregation that has lead to greater disengagement between the general student body and athletes. Back in the 60's and 70's and I am sure prior to that, many students were in the stands cheering for their friends who they knew from classes and living together all week. Now, I think a good number of students do not know many of the athletes and in combination with the other hurdles to attendance, there is less incentive to attend. I don't disagree that putting a successful team on the field is an important element, but I don't know if it is the most important. Heck, when Lehigh had it's great basketball team with CJ McCollum, the only time Stabler Arena was full (5,800 cap.) was when Lafayette was home. The other games drew between 2,000-3,500. Lehigh's winningest sports program, wrestling, wrestles all but a few matches in cozy Grace Hall (1,900 cap). Rarely a sell out anymore, and student attendance is hardly more than a few hundred. So it's not just football. It's the culture.

While I agree with your general thesis, I would argue with the bolded (mine) statement. Holy Cross travels very well, even today...particularly for a school its size. Holy Cross often has as many fans at away games like Yale, Harvard, Monmouth etc as the school hosting.

One does wonder if that will continue on though....HC does have one of the older fan bases around as many who attend games at Fitton or on the road are in the 45+ age range.

[ngineer]

While I agree with your general thesis, I would argue with the bolded (mine) statement. Holy Cross travels very well, even today...particularly for a school its size. Holy Cross often has as many fans at away games like Yale, Harvard, Monmouth etc as the school hosting.

One does wonder if that will continue on though....HC does have one of the older fan bases around as many who attend games at Fitton or on the road are in the 45+ age range.

I would agree that the 'saders have a very good alumni following that shows up at away games, and next to Laughyette (just 10 miles down the road) they bring the second biggest contingent of fans to Goodman. I would argue they had more in the visitor stands last year than Villanova, a whole 60 miles away. I travel to most Lehigh away games and was up at Fitton the last time we visited (2018 I think), and I estimated we had about 1/3 of the attendance that day. Was hoping to make the trip this year, but things up the air as my third granddaughter is due in late September and we may be visiting her in North Carolina. Thankfully, ESPN+ should have it.

[CHIP72]

I travel to most Lehigh away games and was up at Fitton the last time we visited (2018 I think), and I estimated we had about 1/3 of the attendance that day. Was hoping to make the trip this year, but things up the air as my third granddaughter is due in late September and we may be visiting her in North Carolina. Thankfully, ESPN+ should have it.

I've attended Lehigh/Georgetown games at Multi-Sport/Cooper Field where LU had more fans there than the Hoyas did. (I probably will not be at this season's game though because I plan to attend Lafayette/Temple instead.)

[bonarae]

Bumping this thread for the PL fans who signed on this late into the season.

[Go Green]

I've attended Lehigh/Georgetown games at Multi-Sport/Cooper Field where LU had more fans there than the Hoyas did.

Such was not the case last weekend.

I didn't see official attendance numbers, but Georgetown's stadium was nearly full. And most of it were Hoya fans.

[bonarae]

With the way I see H playing against a transitional team in the 1st half, I don't think I could see them in the running for the Ivy title. xsighx

[crusader11]

Charlie Dean - not good.

[bulldog10jw]

With the way I see H playing against a transitional team in the 1st half, I don't think I could see them in the running for the Ivy title. xsighx

The first half of the first game in a season is a little early to make any conclusions about how the rest of the season will play out.

[crusader11]

This is the supposed best team in the Ivy?

Big time yikes.

[bonarae]

This is the supposed best team in the Ivy?

Big time yikes.

Ugly prediction made by the coaches at the time. xsighx

[Ivytalk]

Will take an ugly win. It builds character.

[bulldog10jw]

Will take an ugly win. It builds character.

It's certainly better than an ugly loss

[Ivytalk]

It's certainly better than an ugly loss

Yeah, you don’t win many by losing the turnover battle 3-0. But our stud RB Borguet came through for us.

[caribbeanhen]

Yeah, you don’t win many by losing the turnover battle 3-0. But our stud RB Borguet came through for us.

Having only seen the last six minutes of the game, Harvard looked outstanding and they completely dominated Merrimack.. glad I missed most of it