NCAA denies JSU.

[Cocky]

http://www.gojaxstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4205

[MarkCCU]

Why are y'all wanting to move on up?

[Cap'n Cat]

xsmhx

[Cocky]

Why are y'all wanting to move on up?

Most BOT members are saying the cost of running a top FCS program are about the same as a bottom FBS program but you get more pub in the FBS. Also the general public assumes you have better academics.

[McNeese72]

Why are y'all wanting to move on up?

Because Troy did!! :)

Doc

[th0m]

Wow, that was quick! I'm banned from a forum without even posting, or even signing up! Broken linkage perhaps?

[henfan]

Wonder why JSU is pursuing legal action against the NCAA on this restrictive issue? I'd have to believe they'd have a case.

[Golden Eagle]

Guess you're stuck with us then.

[FargoBison]

Is the Sunbelt looking to add teams? If your going to the FBS you gotta have a conference otherwise there is no point in moving up.

[saluki_in_ohio]

Maybe if you talk nice to the MAC, they'll let ya in.:D

You have one thing going for you, at least you aren't another Ohio or directional Michigan school. They won't let Youngstown State in for that reason alone!

[Lionsrking]

Most BOT members are saying the cost of running a top FCS program are about the same as a bottom FBS program but you get more pub in the FBS. Also the general public assumes you have better academics.

I'm sure the general public will assume Jacksonville State has better academics than Harvard, Yale, or any other Ivy League school.

In all seriousness, there's some validity to your statement when it comes to BCS FBS schools versus FCS schools but not with the bottom rung which is where Jacksonville State will find itself. It's like being the equipment manager on an NFL team...you're there, you're around it, but you're not really IN the NFL. You're still the equipment manager and quite likely, no one knows who you are.

[Gamecocks99]

THE SNBLT WILL BE THE GAMECOCKS HOME ! HIDE AND WATCH !

[walliver]

Jacksonville State probably would beat the NCAA in court (restraint of trade, etc), but the case probably wouldn't make it through the courts until 2011 anyway.

What the NCAA does then is anybody's guess.

The more that I think about it, I have come to the conclusion that the only way the NCAA can structure divisions that will withstand legal (and congressional) scrutiny is to eliminate the Division I subdivisions, and all of Division 2 and just have a scholarship division and a non-scholarship division, or possibly just have one division and let individual teams and conferences decide how much financial emphasis they want to place on sports.

[saluki_in_ohio]

THE SNBLT WILL BE THE GAMECOCKS HOME ! HIDE AND WATCH !

Realistically, I don't think the Sun Belt will take any current OVC team. They might consider EIU, but they don't have the attendance draw to make it in FBS.

[Maroons]

I can't fault JSU for this. What is left for them in the OVC without Samford? This also tells me that the SoCon is not going to be calling. So why not join Troy?

The question is, will the SunBelt invite them in 2013? With WKU, the Belt has 9 football playing schools which makes for a nice 8 game conference schedule. They have 13 total schools in basketball however. That seems like a lot for a 1-bid conference. Unless some teams move out of the SunBelt, I'm not sure they'll be looking to add anyone. WKU fans do say, however, that someone might leave. Was it Denver?

At any rate, I don't blame the Cocks.

[BearsCountry]

Denver is suppose to be looking at the WCC. Which IMO, will expand with them and Seattle when Seattle becomes D1 in a few years.

[EKU05]

I can't fault JSU for this. What is left for them in the OVC without Samford? This also tells me that the SoCon is not going to be calling. So why not join Troy?

The question is, will the SunBelt invite them in 2013? With WKU, the Belt has 9 football playing schools which makes for a nice 8 game conference schedule. They have 13 total schools in basketball however. That seems like a lot for a 1-bid conference. Unless some teams move out of the SunBelt, I'm not sure they'll be looking to add anyone. WKU fans do say, however, that someone might leave. Was it Denver?

At any rate, I don't blame the Cocks.


The SBC and Denver are both quite open about the fact that both believe that Denever needs to find a home that makes more sense for it. SBC commish Wright Waters, however, has vowed that they will not be forced out and are as welcome as any other member for as long as their stay lasts. I actually think the SBC has handled that particular situation rather well.

As far as the SBC adding teams...don't count on it unless some teams leave. 12 and 9 is about as perfect as they could ever hope to have it and they've stated that many times.

[JohnStOnge]

Most BOT members are saying the cost of running a top FCS program are about the same as a bottom FBS program but you get more pub in the FBS. Also the general public assumes you have better academics.

I don't know about the second one but the first one is a myth. It's a myth that's been around for years but it just isn't true.

Take the situation in Louisiana. I think McNeese at least approaches the level of being a "top" FCS over the years and their last gender equity report indicated $1,712,873 football program expenses. Louisiana Lafayette and Louisiana Monroe certainly qualify as "bottom" level FBS programs. Louisiana Lafayette's last report indicated $2,747,293 in football expenses and Louisiana Monroe's indicated $2,538,063. That is not "about the same."

And it gets more "different" when you look at overall athletic department expenses. McNeese spent $4,984,626, Louisiana Lafayette spent $8,033,380, and Louisiana Monroe spent $7,191,179. Again, that is not, "about the same."

A lie is being told; just like it's been told for years.

[JohnStOnge]

THE SNBLT WILL BE THE GAMECOCKS HOME ! HIDE AND WATCH !

And you're excited about that?

[Cocky]

I don't know about the second one but the first one is a myth. It's a myth that's been around for years but it just isn't true.

Take the situation in Louisiana. I think McNeese at least approaches the level of being a "top" FCS over the years and their last gender equity report indicated $1,712,873 football program expenses. Louisiana Lafayette and Louisiana Monroe certainly qualify as "bottom" level FBS programs. Louisiana Lafayette's last report indicated $2,747,293 in football expenses and Louisiana Monroe's indicated $2,538,063. That is not "about the same."

And it gets more "different" when you look at overall athletic department expenses. McNeese spent $4,984,626, Louisiana Lafayette spent $8,033,380, and Louisiana Monroe spent $7,191,179. Again, that is not, "about the same."

A lie is being told; just like it's been told for years.

They are speaking of net money not gross.

[BDKJMU]

Most BOT members are saying the cost of running a top FCS program are about the same as a bottom FBS program but you get more pub in the FBS. Also the general public assumes you have better academics.

That makes no sense. The Ivy and the Patriot have higher academic standards than any I-A conference.

[BDKJMU]

Wonder why JSU is pursuing legal action against the NCAA on this restrictive issue? I'd have to believe they'd have a case.

That would be the typical American way when someone doesn't like something..sue. xrolleyesx

[JohnStOnge]

They are speaking of net money not gross.

That's a myth too. I went through a bunch of that several years ago. Used to talk about it on message boards all the time. I actually input all the revenues and expenses both for football programs only and overall athletic programs and I-AAs had a notably better "bottom line" (revenues minus expenditures) on average than non BCS I-As did.

Years ago the NCAA did a study and concluded that bottom 20 percent I-A programs lost about $1,000,000 more per year than top 20 percent I-AA programs did.

Yes, there's some chance a program won't lose ground financially by moving to FBS. Boise State is an example of a program that's doing lots better as a result of the move. At least for now while things are going well. But that's the exception, not the rule.

More probably than not, Jacksonville State would hurt itself financially by moving to FBS.

[BigApp]

but JSO, where you lose the argument on this is earnings potential.

You're a numbers guy. You know 'average' is not a good indicator, use the median (or mode)

[JaxSinfonian]

If the BOT believes the costs are the same they are either lying about it or woefully misinformed. The numbers are out there, publicly available at the Indianapolis Star's incredibly useful database, at http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_reports . JSU may wind up about the same amount in the red in the end, but the costs will be much, much more, between $600,000 and $2.7 million above our existing $1.7 million for football alone (from the indystar database, JSU & Sun Belt football expenses for 2004). That money will have to come from somewhere, and guarantee games with the big boys won't cover it all. No one has explained where these millions are supposed to come from.

Some BOT members have made comments implying they have some sort of inside info on impending conference shakeups that would lead the SunBelt to add a team. If they had such good sources, you'd think they might have seen the NCAA's moratorium coming.

If some trustees didn't appear to already have their minds made up, I'd credit them for keeping JSU in a position to move in the event the top teams in FCS all decide to bolt. Trouble is, we're already not stacking up well against those teams, and we don't seem to have a plan to become a top-notch FCS program. If the SunBelt were picking a new member tomorrow from among JSU, App State and Georgia Southern, why would they pick us? It'll take more than a big, empty stadium in J'ville to get us in.

Meanwhile, I'll be shocked if there aren't some significant changes to the FBS criteria at the end of this four-year moratorium; that bar is going to be moved. I suspect the SunBelt's recent move-ups will be looking to shut the door behind them.

To sum up, JSU was a few days late and several million dollars short to start talking about an FBS move when they did.

I just hope someone gets the idea that it's worth building a program that compete with the elite of the level we're on, something we haven't done in 15 years in DI.

[Gamecocks99]

but JSO, where you lose the argument on this is earnings potential.

You're a numbers guy. You know 'average' is not a good indicator, use the median (or mode)

HAS THERE BEEN A STUDY DONE ON EARNINGS POTENTIAL FCS VS FBS???????

I WOULD THINK FBS WINS UNLESS YOU WERE LOOKING AT A SCHOOL LIKE THE DEL BLUE HENS. WHERE THEY ARE THE BIGGEST SCHOOL IN THE STATE.

QUOTE: JaxSinfonian
If the BOT believes the costs are the same they are either lying about it or woefully misinformed. The numbers are out there, publicly available at the Indianapolis Star's incredibly useful database, at http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_reports . JSU may wind up about the same amount in the red in the end, but the costs will be much, much more, between $600,000 and $2.7 million above our existing $1.7 million for football alone (from the indystar database, JSU & Sun Belt football expenses for 2004). That money will have to come from somewhere, and guarantee games with the big boys won't cover it all. No one has explained where these millions are supposed to come from.

Some BOT members have made comments implying they have some sort of inside info on impending conference shakeups that would lead the SunBelt to add a team. If they had such good sources, you'd think they might have seen the NCAA's moratorium coming.

If some trustees didn't appear to already have their minds made up, I'd credit them for keeping JSU in a position to move in the event the top teams in FCS all decide to bolt. Trouble is, we're already not stacking up well against those teams, and we don't seem to have a plan to become a top-notch FCS program. If the SunBelt were picking a new member tomorrow from among JSU, App State and Georgia Southern, why would they pick us? It'll take more than a big, empty stadium in J'ville to get us in.

Meanwhile, I'll be shocked if there aren't some significant changes to the FBS criteria at the end of this four-year moratorium; that bar is going to be moved. I suspect the SunBelt's recent move-ups will be looking to shut the door behind them.

To sum up, JSU was a few days late and several million dollars short to start talking about an FBS move when they did.

I just hope someone gets the idea that it's worth building a program that compete with the elite of the level we're on, something we haven't done in 15 years in DI.
Yesterday 09:10 PM


SIMPLE ANSWER FROM GAMECOCKS99

JSU NEEDS MONEY = STUDENT ACTIVITY=10,000 STUDENTS X $100 PER STUDENT = $1,000,000.00 PER SEMESTER = FBS SNBLT DAYS FOR JSU

THIS FEE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN PLACE 20 YEARS AGO. I WOULD HAVE PAID IT AND 95% OR MORE OF THE STUDENTS WOULD NOT HAVE NOT HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE FEE.

JSU COMPETEING : GIVE JSU 85 SCHOLARSHIPS COMPARED TO THE 63 WE HAVE NOW AND THEY WILL COMPETE JUST AS TROY HAS. JSU HAS A VISION FOR THE FUTURE. WITHOUT A VISION FOR THE FUTURE YOU DIE.

THE JSU ADMIN. HAS HIRED CONSULTANTS TO MAKE SURE THINGS ARE DONE RIGHT IN THIS MOVE. I HAVE FAITH IN THEM. THEY ( ADMIN. & COACHES ETC.) GET ALONG AND WORK TOGETHER BETTER THAN THEY HAVE IN 20 YEARS TO SHARE A COMMON GOAL / VISION.

Also, I've been around since the days of Coach Pell (MID 1960'S.) I think we will be ok with our move up. Remember as we move up we must crawl before we walk or run. The Winning seasons will not come in a season or two. As an American culture we want things to come to us quickly like a microwave.

I know that we have learned from our past move up from DII. Now, we have a new A. D., Coach and President. I know it is easy to get on the Negative Band Wagon. But if possible Keep the Faith. Remember Southerns as far back as the Civil War have always had a hard time with change and don't always embrace it with open arms.

The move up will give Jacksonville State University a chance to have good smart growth not only just for the football program but for the university as a whole.

[TigerFan17]

Umm...if you can't compete all that well against 63 scholarship teams with your 63 scholarships, why is it a guarantee that you will be competitive when you have the FBS allotment?

While the earnings potential is greater (larger attendances due to FBS move...unless you're Eastern Michigan), consequently your potential to lose is also hightened.

See it this way...

Imagine an equilateral triangle, rotated so that one of the points is facing directly east. Now draw a line that bisects the triangle and intersects with the eastern most point. Are we all there? Okay, that line represents the median for net loss/net gain. Above the line is net gain, below the line is net loss. As you spend more overall money on your football program, move from left to right, and vice versa. The actual statistical representation of this triangle would be skewed to favor loss, but this is just to show you the general idea.

So yes, you can visually see now, potential net gain is larger. However, potential net loss is larger as well.

xwhistlex

[PMB4Life]

Imagine an equilateral triangle, rotated so that one of the points is facing directly east. Now draw a line that bisects the triangle and intersects with the eastern most point. Are we all there? Okay, that line represents the median for net loss/net gain. Above the line is net gain, below the line is net loss. As you spend more overall money on your football program, move from left to right, and vice versa. The actual statistical representation of this triangle would be skewed to favor loss, but this is just to show you the general idea.

So yes, you can visually see now, potential net gain is larger. However, potential net loss is larger as well.

Now THAT'S what a Towson education can get you. My head hurts. Damn Arts Degree.

[JohnStOnge]

but JSO, where you lose the argument on this is earnings potential.

You're a numbers guy. You know 'average' is not a good indicator, use the median (or mode)

Whether the average is a good indicator or not depends on the distribution. I usually do look at both the median and mean but I don't say anything about the median unless there's a notable difference because, if I use the median, I feel like I have to explain what it is.

I can't find my stuff from back when I did the comparisons but I'm pretty sure I did medians too and there wasn't much difference from the means in that case. The NCAA did their study based on the mean so that's what I have to go with when I talk about their study.

As far as potential...yes, I think the possible net associated with going FBS is greater than that associated with staying FCS. But the question involves likelihood. I think that, if you decide to go FBS, you need to realize that, more probably than not, it's going to worsen rather than improve the school's financial situation.

Kind of like gambling. There is potential that you can make a lot of money doing it and come out ahead over your lifetime. But, before you make the decision to begin, the odds are that you're going to come out behind.

[JohnStOnge]

JSU COMPETEING : GIVE JSU 85 SCHOLARSHIPS COMPARED TO THE 63 WE HAVE NOW AND THEY WILL COMPETE JUST AS TROY HAS.

On an overall basis, Troy has been able to compete with other FCS bottom feeders...not with the mainstream of I-A/FBS.

Since Troy has joined the Sun Belt, it's been 4 - 12 in non conference I-A/FBS games.

Since Troy joined I-A, it's gone 18 - 12 against other former I-AAs but 9-25 against I-As that have been I-A all along. And that's 4 -22 if you leave out woeful I-As who are or have been in the Sun Belt (Louisiana Lafayette, Utah State, New Mexico State).

By FBS standards, Troy is a weak program with consistently bad teams. It has a reasonably good record because it plays a lot of games against teams in its own situation...other former I-AAs and/or teams from the weakest FBS programs.

[Gamecocks99]

On an overall basis, Troy has been able to compete with other FCS bottom feeders...not with the mainstream of I-A/FBS.

Since Troy has joined the Sun Belt, it's been 4 - 12 in non conference I-A/FBS games.

Since Troy joined I-A, it's gone 18 - 12 against other former I-AAs but 9-25 against I-As that have been I-A all along. And that's 4 -22 if you leave out woeful I-As who are or have been in the Sun Belt (Louisiana Lafayette, Utah State, New Mexico State).

By FBS standards, Troy is a weak program with consistently bad teams. It has a reasonably good record because it plays a lot of games against teams in its own situation...other former I-AAs and/or teams from the weakest FBS programs.


xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx
NOT ACCORDING TO ESPN CBS & FOX ANALYST THAT HAVE COVERED TROY'S GAMES AND ALSO ASK ANY SEC COACH THAT HAS PLAYED THEM. THEY ARE SINGING OFF A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHEET OF MUSIC THAN YOU.

[Timpdude]

Not to mention those two Big XII teams that have visited Troy over the past few years and both went home with Ls. Oklahoma State isn't a bad team this year.. Missouri wasn't that great when Troy beat them a few years back, but at the time they were ranked and many think that the Troy game put them in a slide that they never got out of that year.

I would imagine that Florida was happy that the game ended when it did this year as if Troy had played the first half like they did the second UF would have had 1 loss going into the Auburn game... Don't think UF played their second and third teamers in the 2nd half either.. Tebow didnt' come out until less than 1 minute to play.

Mississippi State lost to Troy... Of course they lost to Maine too, but still.. Troy isn't a bottom dwelling FBS team. They are a mid-major team. Given time I think they will be a very respectible mid-major.

[Gamecocks99]

Because Troy did!! :)

Doc

WORKS FOR ME !xcoolx IT IS ONLY 20 YEARS LATE BUT IT WORKS FOR ME !

[JohnStOnge]

[/I][/B]


xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx
NOT ACCORDING TO ESPN CBS & FOX ANALYST THAT HAVE COVERED TROY'S GAMES AND ALSO ASK ANY SEC COACH THAT HAS PLAYED THEM. THEY ARE SINGING OFF A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHEET OF MUSIC THAN YOU.

They do that. They're paid to promote games and pump teams. The record against each group is what it is. Again, their record against I-A/FBS teams other than other former I-AAs and weak programs that have been in the Sun Belt at one time or another is horrible. There's no getting around the reality when you really look at it.

Another thing you can do is look at Sagarin ratings just to get an idea of where Troy's stood at the end of each season while taking who they've played and who they've beaten into account. Troy has never finished higher than 77th and has finished as low as 141st. There have only been 120 some-odd I-A/FBS teams each time. Their schedule strength ratings have ranged from 117th to 91st.

Troy as "good" in the context of FBS is an illusion based on failing to look at the entire picture in a balanced way. They've never had, by FBS standards, a "good" (i.e., better than or even at average) team.

[JohnStOnge]

Not to mention those two Big XII teams that have visited Troy over the past few years and both went home with Ls. Oklahoma State isn't a bad team this year.. Missouri wasn't that great when Troy beat them a few years back, but at the time they were ranked and many think that the Troy game put them in a slide that they never got out of that year. .

When you look at how Troy's done against BCS league teams you need to look at the whole picture and not just games in which they've been successful. And the whole picture is that they've gone 3-21 (0.125) as a I-A/FBS in such games. The average score has been 34-14 BCS league team. That's comparable to what I-AA/FCS playoff teams did against BCS league competition during the same period through 2006...as they went 5 - 38 (0.117) with the average score being BCS league team 37-17.

And I-AA/FCS playoff teams never got to play BCS league teams at home.

We'll see about Oklahoma State. But Missouri and Mississippi State both finished with losing records. I think an alternative view to the Missouri "slide" theory is that Missouri was way overrated when Troy played them. The Tigers were nowhere close to a top 25 caliber I-A team. And one might say that Oklahoma State losing to Troy may mean that Oklahoma State's in for a long year. We'll see. They caught a break a couple of weeks ago when Texas Tech's wide receiver dropped what would've been the winning TD pass at the end of the game. But I think that right now you'd have to make them the underdog in at least 5 of their last 7 games and maybe 6.

[JohnStOnge]

I would imagine that Florida was happy that the game ended when it did this year as if Troy had played the first half like they did the second UF would have had 1 loss going into the Auburn game... Don't think UF played their second and third teamers in the 2nd half either.. Tebow didnt' come out until less than 1 minute to play. .

You can't be serious. Florida led 49-7 at halftime against a team that later gave up over 500 yards of offense...including 345 yards rushing at 7.5 yards per carry... to Louisiana-Lafayette and now ranks 99th in total defense, 96th in scoring defense, and 119th (dead last) in rushing defense. Do you seriously believe Florida couldn't have scored if it needed to? Do you think maybe a 49-7 halftime lead might've cut the intensity a little?

[JohnStOnge]

[/I][/B]


xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx
NOT ACCORDING TO ESPN CBS & FOX ANALYST THAT HAVE COVERED TROY'S GAMES AND ALSO ASK ANY SEC COACH THAT HAS PLAYED THEM. THEY ARE SINGING OFF A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHEET OF MUSIC THAN YOU.

Troy is now 1-7 vs. the SEC and the one team it beat finished the season 3-8. If you were to seriously ask SEC coaches, "Do you think Troy, as compared to everybody in I-A/FBS has had teams that are stronger than average, average, or below average in strength?" they'd have to say "below average."

People get caught up when "mid majors" (actually, the better term is "minor FBS") beat BCS league teams and forget how frequently they lose. It's kind of like I remember a few years back an ESPN guy saying "Who's your MAC daddy" because there were a couple of MAC wins over Big 10 teams. But the reality is that, since the BCS started in 1998 through the 2006 season, the MAC was 10-87 against the Big 10.

[Maroons]

John... I am impressed. You certainly have your facts in front of you and your arguments are sound.

[TigerFan17]

You guys can't be serious! You're telling me the media doesn't tell facts and is paid money to over-emphasize games that really mean just as much as Montana-Montana State, if not less?!?!?!? You show me the sportscaster who says that!! He wouldn't last a day!








xcoffeex

[JohnStOnge]

John... I am impressed. You certainly have your facts in front of you and your arguments are sound.

Making databbases of "inter-level" competition in order to write articles for the I-AA (now FCS) preview mag paid off! I've got databases updated through 2006 for nonbcs I-A/FBS vs. both I-AA/FCS and BCS, for BCS vs. I-AA/FCS, and playoff I-AA/FCS vs. FBS. The first two cover games from the start of the BCS in 1998 on. The last covers games from the start of the I-AA playoffs in 1998.

Anyway, it means I can quickly look at various teams' records against the other groups and calclulate the average (or median, App State guy) scores, etc. So it's not a lot of effort. The effort came in preparing to write those articles.

[Timpdude]

Very well done on the stats... You definitely have your stuff together on that one, but stats are just that.. Stats. You obviously haven't watched Troy this year (or most years for that matter). Yes.. UF was winning 49-7 at halftime, but I assure you that they didn't call off the dogs in the 2nd half. They didn't put in a pine boy until there was less than a minute left. Troy had already screwed themselves in that game, but had they played the first half just about half as good as they did the second then we would be talking 4 wins for Troy against BCS schools.

[JohnStOnge]

What the heck. While I'm at it I'll just mention that...after the McNeese/ULL game this year...the Sun Belt is now 4 - 8 against the nearby FCS Southland. Teams from the Sun Belt...or teams that have been in the Sun Belt at one time or another...account for the overwhelming majority of Troy's wins as a I-A/FBS against other teams in that subdivision.

Ii'm not saying that the Southland is stronger top to bottom than the Sun Belt. I don't think it is. But, clearly, a FBS conference that goes 4-8 against what's maybe the 5th or 6th strongest FCS conference regardless of what the matchups were is pretty darned weak by FBS standards. And there's been a case in which a team that tied for 3rd in the Southland beat a team that tied for the Sun Belt championship (2005, when Northwestern State beat Louisiana Monroe).

Another breakdown (I had to just do this one manually, database not set up for this one): Troy as a I-A is 20 - 11 against I-A teams that have been in the Sun Belt at one time or another, but the Trojans are 7 - 26 against I-A/FBS teams outside of that group. Since the Trojans joined the Sun Belt (so as to leave out the early transition years), it's 16 - 7 and 4 - 12.

That's if I counted right just now. If I didn't, I was close. When Troy has stepped out of the world of Sun Belt type teams in the I-A/FBS world, the Trojans have lost a lot more often than they've won. Troy has not had "good" I-A/FBS teams. The Trojans have had one of the better "bad" I-A/FBS teams at times. Sometimes not even that.

[Timpdude]

Offensively I will give you that Troy hasn't had a 'good' team yet, but other than South Florida and UConn who else has made a transition and done anything worthwhile. Troy made a bowl game in their first year eligible... They have only had an eligible FBS team for 4 years now. Give them a little bit of time and I assure you that Troy will move up and start winning games. Troy is at least on track to have a successful Offense now that Tony Franklin is the OC. If they can somehow find a fix for the horrendous rushing defense they might run the table the rest of the year (including at UGA)

[TroyTrojan]

That's if I counted right just now. If I didn't, I was close. When Troy has stepped out of the world of Sun Belt type teams in the I-A/FBS world, the Trojans have lost a lot more often than they've won.

Yes, but the world outside of the Sun Belt looks like this to Troy:

- 10 "Top 25" Teams (20 BCS teams)

2002: #9 Nebraska, #21 Iowa State, Missouri, Mississippi State, Arkansas
2003: #7 Kansas State, Minnesota, #12 Nebraska, Virginia
2004: #19 Missouri, South Carolina, #18 LSU
2005: Missouri, South Carolina
2006: #9 FSU, Georgia Tech, #23 Nebraska
2007: #18 Arkansas, #5 Florida, Oklahoma State

Boise State has played following BCS teams since 2002:
-> Arkansas, Oregon State (4x), Georgia, Washington + Oklahoma (Fiesta Bowl)

Troy hardly plays mid majors from other conferences:

Since 2002, Troy has played following mid majors (non Sun Belt teams): UAB (L), Marshall (L), UAB (W), Marshall (W), Marshall, (W), UAB (L), UAB (L) + Northern Illinois (L, Silicon Valley Classic) and Rice (W, New Orleans Bowl).

Since 2001, Troy has defeated 3 BCS teams and played in 2 Bowl games + another Bowl game is likely.

Boise State, Louisiana Tech, and Marshall after 7 years in 1A:

Boise State (1996-2002): 3 Bowl games, zero wins vs. BCS teams.
Louisiana Tech (1989-1995): 1 Bowl game, zero wins vs. BCS teams.
Marshall (1996-2002): 6 Bowl games (!), 1 win vs. BCS teams.

[TroyTrojan]

That's if I counted right just now. If I didn't, I was close. When Troy has stepped out of the world of Sun Belt type teams in the I-A/FBS world, the Trojans have lost a lot more often than they've won.

Yes, but the world outside of the Sun Belt looks like this to Troy:

-> 10 "Top 25 Teams" (20 BCS teams):

2002: #9 Nebraska, #21 Iowa State, Missouri, Mississippi State, Arkansas
2003: #7 Kansas State, Minnesota, #12 Nebraska, Virginia
2004: #19 Missouri, South Carolina, #18 LSU
2005: Missouri, South Carolina
2006: #9 FSU, Georgia Tech, #23 Nebraska
2007: #23 Arkansas, #4 Florida, Oklahoma State

Boise State has played following BCS teams since 2002:
-> Arkansas, Oregon State (4x), Georgia, Washington + Oklahoma (Fiesta Bowl)

Troy hardly plays mid majors from other conferences:

Since 2002, Troy has played following mid majors (non Sun Belt teams): UAB (L), UAB (W), Marshall (L), Marshall (W), Marshall, (W), UAB (L), UAB (L) + Northern Illinois (L, Silicon Valley Classic) and Rice (W, New Orleans Bowl).

Since 2001, Troy has defeated 3 BCS teams and played in 2 Bowl games + another Bowl game is likely.

Boise State (1996-2002): 3 Bowl games, zero wins vs. BCS teams.
Louisiana Tech (1989-1995): 1 Bowl game, zero wins vs. BCS teams.
Marshall (1996-2002): 6 Bowl games (!), 3 wins vs. BCS teams.

[Gamecocks99]

What the heck. While I'm at it I'll just mention that...after the McNeese/ULL game this year...the Sun Belt is now 4 - 8 against the nearby FCS Southland. Teams from the Sun Belt...or teams that have been in the Sun Belt at one time or another...account for the overwhelming majority of Troy's wins as a I-A/FBS against other teams in that subdivision.

Ii'm not saying that the Southland is stronger top to bottom than the Sun Belt. I don't think it is. But, clearly, a FBS conference that goes 4-8 against what's maybe the 5th or 6th strongest FCS conference regardless of what the matchups were is pretty darned weak by FBS standards. And there's been a case in which a team that tied for 3rd in the Southland beat a team that tied for the Sun Belt championship (2005, when Northwestern State beat Louisiana Monroe).

Another breakdown (I had to just do this one manually, database not set up for this one): Troy as a I-A is 20 - 11 against I-A teams that have been in the Sun Belt at one time or another, but the Trojans are 7 - 26 against I-A/FBS teams outside of that group. Since the Trojans joined the Sun Belt (so as to leave out the early transition years), it's 16 - 7 and 4 - 12.

That's if I counted right just now. If I didn't, I was close. When Troy has stepped out of the world of Sun Belt type teams in the I-A/FBS world, the Trojans have lost a lot more often than they've won. Troy has not had "good" I-A/FBS teams. The Trojans have had one of the better "bad" I-A/FBS teams at times. Sometimes not even that.

How long has troy been a Full 1A team 7 years ? maybe ?

and these teams below

10 "Top 25 Teams" (20 BCS teams):

2002: #9 Nebraska, #21 Iowa State, Missouri, Mississippi State, Arkansas
2003: #7 Kansas State, Minnesota, #12 Nebraska, Virginia
2004: #19 Missouri, South Carolina, #18 LSU
2005: Missouri, South Carolina
2006: #9 FSU, Georgia Tech, #23 Nebraska
2007: #23 Arkansas, #4 Florida, Oklahoma State

How long has all of these other schools which are the largest schools in their states been a IA team. How much $ has been sunk in to these schools over what? 100 or more years compared to 7 years?
You are not comparing apples to apples.

Heck if Troy came in and blew everyone out of the water in a 4 or 5 or even 10 year period of time, then that would not be normal. Blakney is a great coach But he is not the Good Lord himself or some mircle worker.

As a culture Americans want thinks to come quickly like a microwave or the drive thru. If things do not come quick then as Americans we raise Hell.

I can tell you this much as a Jacksonville State Alum & someone who has watched their program all of my life. Troy want stop until they have a program that will be able to play & beat anyone in the nation.

[TigerFan17]

I can tell you this much as a Jacksonville State Alum & someone who has watched their program all of my life. Troy want stop until they have a program that will be able to play & beat anyone in the nation.

Coaches will be recruiting cyborgs by that time.

[dbackjon]

None of the numbers mean a thing to the JSU BOT. The only thing that matters is that Troy is having some success, and publicity in FBS. Therefore, JSU has to become FBS.

No rational argument needed.

[youwouldno]

Well, Troy isn't great but they have had some success. That really isn't the issue, because JSU is nowhere close to being as ready to move up as Troy was. JSU would be a perennial bottom feeder with minimal potential; Troy doesn't have great potential, but they can get a nice win here and there. JSU won't even do that.

[walliver]

My feeling is that I-AA to I-A (FCS to FBS) moves are rarely if ever based on competitive or financial incentives.

There are teams (like USF, UCF, FAU, and FIU) who played I-AA because the NCAA made them before they moved to I-A where they wanted to be all along. UConn had a sweetheart deal no rational school could turn down.

The rest of the movers, IMHO, moved because being a "I-A school" is more prestigious. "Real Universities" are I-A ,and I-AA is for the "small colleges". JSU seems to have a case of "Troy envy", although many of us see nothing to envy in Troy.

I personally believe any school should be allowed to play at any level they want. If JSU wants to play FBS then that's fine with me.

[Cocky]

I don't think it is all Troy envy. We would have moved a few years ago. This subject has been bannered around for sometime. Troy officials have encouraged JSU to make the move as only saying positive things about moving to FBS. The publicity thing is probably more of a reason than anything.

[JohnStOnge]

Very well done on the stats... You definitely have your stuff together on that one, but stats are just that.. Stats. You obviously haven't watched Troy this year (or most years for that matter). Yes.. UF was winning 49-7 at halftime, but I assure you that they didn't call off the dogs in the 2nd half. They didn't put in a pine boy until there was less than a minute left. Troy had already screwed themselves in that game, but had they played the first half just about half as good as they did the second then we would be talking 4 wins for Troy against BCS schools.

What I listed are results. And the results say that Troy has lost a lot more than it's won against I-A/FBS teams outside of the Sun Belt level. As far as what it means to outscore Florida 17-0 in the third quarter after being down 49-7 at halftime; I'll let others judge if they think that means much or if whether or not Florida altered its normal substitution pattern means anything. If you think being up 49-7 at halftime doesn't affect the way a team approaches the game at the start of the third quarter, go ahead and think it.

And I have watched Troy a number of times on TV. In fact I watched the Marshall and Missouri games back in 2004 as well as the Oklahoma State game this year. My own opinion is that those were much bigger games for Troy than they were for their opponents. Like the OSU game this year. Troy came on the field all pumped up, jumping up and down, etc. OSU looked very "ho hum," and they played very sloppily, I thought.

But that doesn't matter, really. That's just an opinion. The fact is that Troy...when stepping outside of the world of the Louisiana Lafayettes, Idahos, and Middle Tennessees...has lost a lot more often than it's won. It has not had "good" I-A/FBS teams unless you think it's possible to be weaker than average yet be "good" in that context.

[JohnStOnge]

I don't think it is all Troy envy. We would have moved a few years ago. This subject has been bannered around for sometime. Troy officials have encouraged JSU to make the move as only saying positive things about moving to FBS. The publicity thing is probably more of a reason than anything.


Yes. I would not argue with the assertion that teams that move from I-AA/FCS to I-A/FBS get more publicity. However, be aware that sometimes it's not good publicity. Sometimes it's publicity like being in the "bottom 10" rankings and such. But, I know that there's an "any publicity is good publicity" argument.

[JohnStOnge]

-> 10 "Top 25 Teams" (20 BCS teams):

2002: #9 Nebraska, #21 Iowa State, Missouri, Mississippi State, Arkansas
2003: #7 Kansas State, Minnesota, #12 Nebraska, Virginia
2004: #19 Missouri, South Carolina, #18 LSU
2005: Missouri, South Carolina
2006: #9 FSU, Georgia Tech, #23 Nebraska
2007: #23 Arkansas, #4 Florida, Oklahoma State

.

The BCS is the mainstream of the FBS. Also, you need to look at where teams finished rather than where they were ranked when Troy played them. In 2002, for example, Nebraska finished 7-7 and unranked. In 2004, Missouri finished 5-6.

Besides, when you're talking about whether or not Troy is "good" relative to the FBS world, you have to realize that the majority of the teams in the FCS world are BCS leagues schools. They're part of the consideration.

In my opinion, and I think anybody else who really thinks about it rationally and objectively would reach the same conclusion, every I-A/FBS team Troy has had so far hs been in the lower half of I-A/FBS teams. The Trojans have been below average (or below median, App guy) in caliber. I don't know how you can call a team that's below average "good" in the context of that group.

[JaxSinfonian]

Troy officials have encouraged JSU to make the move as only saying positive things about moving to FBS.

They just want a chance to even the all-time record in the series. Currently 33-29-2 in Jax State's favor. :D

I do think Troy envy has at least a bit to do with it. Or at least some reasoning along the lines of "Troy's doing it, why can't we?"

I think we ought to try to replicate the success Troy had when they were still in I-AA before we try following them again. If we can't figure out how to run a successful program in FCS, there's little hope we can become even a mediocre team in the Sun Belt or whatever league we talk into taking us.


None of the numbers mean a thing to the JSU BOT. The only thing that matters is that Troy is having some success, and publicity in FBS. Therefore, JSU has to become FBS.

No rational argument needed.

I'm curious. Just how did you become so learned about the Battle for the Ol' School Bell?

[Maroons]

I think we ought to try to replicate the success Troy had when they were still in I-AA before we try following them again. If we can't figure out how to run a successful program in FCS, there's little hope we can become even a mediocre team in the Sun Belt or whatever league we talk into taking us.

I'm not even sure this is as neccessary as some might have you believe. Middle Tennessee had a strong but not dominating I-AA program before they made the jump in 2000 or whenever. It wasn't a case of them dominating I-AA (because they weren't) but a case of their fans and administration saying "This is something we can and will do." And they have made it happen and had about as much success as a school like theirs or ours can reasonably expect. I think they did a decent job of drumming up the support and it carried over into facility renovations and other areas. It doesn't hurt that they have a large student body. WKU wasn't exactly dominating I-AA either before they left.

The determining factor in making the jump is not football quality as much as it is a prepared administration and the appropriate financial base. This is all IMHO, of course.

I think I should add that as a football fan, I can certainly understand the desire to want to feel that there is nothing left to be accomplished at the FCS level... that you would be leaving with championships.

[Gamecocks99]

Well, Troy isn't great but they have had some success. That really isn't the issue, because JSU is nowhere close to being as ready to move up as Troy was. JSU would be a perennial bottom feeder with minimal potential; Troy doesn't have great potential, but they can get a nice win here and there. JSU won't even do that.

JSUWouldKnow:

Jacksonville State vs Troy: JSU Leads the all time Series. JSU owns National Championships in football '92, basketball '85, Baseball '90 & 91, gymnastics '84 and Runner up Football '77 & '83

No other University in any division has won a National Championship in football, basketball and baseball.

JSU will do well !

How many NC's has your school won?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JaxSinfonian
I think we ought to try to replicate the success Troy had when they were still in I-AA before we try following them again. If we can't figure out how to run a successful program in FCS, there's little hope we can become even a mediocre team in the Sun Belt or whatever league we talk into taking us.



QUOTE: MARRONS
I'm not even sure this is as neccessary as some might have you believe. Middle Tennessee had a strong but not dominating I-AA program before they made the jump in 2000 or whenever. It wasn't a case of them dominating I-AA (because they weren't) but a case of their fans and administration saying "This is something we can and will do." And they have made it happen and had about as much success as a school like theirs or ours can reasonably expect. I think they did a decent job of drumming up the support and it carried over into facility renovations and other areas. It doesn't hurt that they have a large student body. WKU wasn't exactly dominating I-AA either before they left.

The determining factor in making the jump is not football quality as much as it is a prepared administration and the appropriate financial base. This is all IMHO, of course.

I think I should add that as a football fan, I can certainly understand the desire to want to feel that there is nothing left to be accomplished at the FCS level... that you would be leaving with championships.

Marrons: Good Post ! [/I] i Agree ! JSU's BOT seems to share your thoughts

[Golden Eagle]

As a culture Americans want thinks to come quickly like a microwave or the drive thru. If things do not come quick then as Americans we raise Hell.

Like wanting to move to I-A now instead of waiting, oh say twenty or thirty years.

[dbackjon]

I'm curious. Just how did you become so learned about the Battle for the Ol' School Bell?

Reading this and JSU's boards :D

Let me ask you this - if Troy was FCS, and not thinking of going FBS, how much clamor would there be in Jacksonville for FBS football?

[JaxSinfonian]

Reading this and JSU's boards :D

Do we make it that obvious? Whup Troy! (sorry ... that really was involuntary)


Let me ask you this - if Troy was FCS, and not thinking of going FBS, how much clamor would there be in Jacksonville for FBS football?

Zilch.

[Cocky]

[QUOTE=Gamecocks99;682387]JSUWouldKnow:





How many NC's has your school won?


I believe he is a Georgia Southern fan, so he has a few in football.

[Gamecocks99]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecocks99
As a culture Americans want things to come to us quickly like a microwave or a drive thru. If things do not come quick then as Americans we raise Hell.



Like wanting to move to I-A now instead of waiting, oh say twenty or thirty years.

JSU has talked about moving to 1A for the last 15 years. add another 5 years before the move happens and there is your 20 years. xlolx Nothing and I truly mean Nothing is done quickly in Jacksonville, Alabama !

[Gamecocks99]

Do we make it that obvious? Whup Troy! (sorry ... that really was involuntary)



Zilch.

IMHO - I think there would be an interest from JSU if Troy was not in the FBS ! Believe or not THEY DO have a vision at JSU !