LFN: Patriot Goes 5-2

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In my "Around The Horn", I go on at length at questionable Ivy League coaching dec* I mean, great, wonderful play by Patriot League schools.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[hc12]

havard head coach is tim murphy

[Lehigh Football Nation]

havard head coach is tim murphy

Thanks. I fixed it - obviously, lack of sleep played a factor :p

[Franks Tanks]

In my "Around The Horn", I go on at length at questionable Ivy League coaching dec* I mean, great, wonderful play by Patriot League schools.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

So Lafayette beats a quality opponent on the road and it is the coaches fault xeyebrowx. xlolx xsmiley_wix

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So Lafayette beats a quality opponent on the road and it is the coaches fault xeyebrowx. xlolx xsmiley_wix

Come on - you have to admit that coach Bagnoli gave a heaping assist to coach Tavani in that game! I'm not saying DiPaola didn't make plays (he clearly did) or that Davis Rondriguez didn't make plays (he nailed the FG) but Bagnoli ELECTED to take a safety in that spot - that had nothing to do with Lafayette's special teams, or defense, which did a fantastic job in this game.

I'll argue that forever. You NEVER take a safety and give the opposing team a chance to win the game with a FG at the end. Lafayette could have had two shots, since there was 5 minutes left! Penn's offense never had a chance to win the game!

[LCFan21]

Come on - you have to admit that coach Bagnoli gave a heaping assist to coach Tavani in that game! I'm not saying DiPaola didn't make plays (he clearly did) or that Davis Rondriguez didn't make plays (he nailed the FG) but Bagnoli ELECTED to take a safety in that spot - that had nothing to do with Lafayette's special teams, or defense, which did a fantastic job in this game.

I'll argue that forever. You NEVER take a safety and give the opposing team a chance to win the game with a FG at the end. Lafayette could have had two shots, since there was 5 minutes left! Penn's offense never had a chance to win the game!

I was at the game and this is my take on all this - Lafayette was scoring one way or the other in that final minute - if we needed the TD it was ours - even if Bagnoli did punt it for arguments sake - we were moving the ball with ease and had plenty of time outs at the very end - for some reason the coaches elected not to use them and just play to win with the field goal - we needed about 2 or 3 yards to make it first and goal with 30 to 40 seconds left yet to all of our amazement the coaches let the clock run down instead of scoring the TD. It worked all worked out for the best.

[Franks Tanks]

Come on - you have to admit that coach Bagnoli gave a heaping assist to coach Tavani in that game! I'm not saying DiPaola didn't make plays (he clearly did) or that Davis Rondriguez didn't make plays (he nailed the FG) but Bagnoli ELECTED to take a safety in that spot - that had nothing to do with Lafayette's special teams, or defense, which did a fantastic job in this game.

I'll argue that forever. You NEVER take a safety and give the opposing team a chance to win the game with a FG at the end. Lafayette could have had two shots, since there was 5 minutes left! Penn's offense never had a chance to win the game!

I tried to be a little tongue in cheek there, I guess the little winky smily face didnt convey that properly xlolx . Anyway I agree we would have scored that TD if we needed to. Plenty of time and time outs to do so.

[carney2]

I'll argue that forever. You NEVER take a safety and give the opposing team a chance to win the game with a FG at the end.

For what it's worth (and there is always the very real possibility that Tavani is just making nice-nice with a member of his fraternity who he will see again in the future), Frank said at Tuesday's media session

"It's beautiful how many coaches all over the place are talking about that on the internet now, I mean it's worse than a women's sewing circle. Because everybody is paranoid now - what will I do if I'm in that situation? I have to be honest with you, after looking at it now on film and how the game went, I think I would have done the same thing."

Personally, I thought that Bagnoli had the brains of a doorstop when he made the decision on Saturday. Despite the results, with hindsight I'm not so sure anymore. I would at least now classify the decision as a measured risk. No matter what however, if this season is successful for the Leopards, they should make one extra ring and give it to Coach B.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For what it's worth (and there is always the very real possibility that Tavani is just making nice-nice with a member of his fraternity who he will see again in the future), Frank said at Tuesday's media session

"It's beautiful how many coaches all over the place are talking about that on the internet now, I mean it's worse than a women's sewing circle. Because everybody is paranoid now - what will I do if I'm in that situation? I have to be honest with you, after looking at it now on film and how the game went, I think I would have done the same thing."

Personally, I thought that Bagnoli had the brains of a doorstop when he made the decision on Saturday. Despite the results, with hindsight I'm not so sure anymore. I would at least now classify the decision as a measured risk. No matter what however, if this season is successful for the Leopards, they should make one extra ring and give it to Coach B.

For me, it's a risk/reward thing. Let's say the punt is blocked. What's the chance that Lafayette recovers it in the end zone and gets a TD to go ahead? Pretty slim, but even if they do you get the ball back with 5 minutes to go with a chance to tie or win. What's the chance that it goes over his head or the punter muffs it? Better than Lafayette recovering, but if it happens you're still up 7-5 and the same scenario would have played out. What if he gets the punt off, and gets a horrible kick or the Leopards get a great return? Lafayette sets up shop at (say) the 20, but they still need a TD to beat you. It's a lot easier to keep a team out of the end zone than it is to get them out of FG range. Furthermore, Lafayette could get a great return whether coming off the safety or punting out of the end zone.

My biggest problems with this are that it 1) showed zero confidence in his offense, and 2) it didn't even allow his offense back onto the field for a chance to win the game. Never mind you now give coach Tavani a chance to tell his kicker and QB, "See? They think you stink, and can't do this thing."

[carney2]

For me, it's a risk/reward thing. Let's say the punt is blocked. What's the chance that Lafayette recovers it in the end zone and gets a TD to go ahead? Pretty slim, but even if they do you get the ball back with 5 minutes to go with a chance to tie or win. What's the chance that it goes over his head or the punter muffs it? Better than Lafayette recovering, but if it happens you're still up 7-5 and the same scenario would have played out. What if he gets the punt off, and gets a horrible kick or the Leopards get a great return? Lafayette sets up shop at (say) the 20, but they still need a TD to beat you. It's a lot easier to keep a team out of the end zone than it is to get them out of FG range. Furthermore, Lafayette could get a great return whether coming off the safety or punting out of the end zone.

My biggest problems with this are that it 1) showed zero confidence in his offense, and 2) it didn't even allow his offense back onto the field for a chance to win the game. Never mind you now give coach Tavani a chance to tell his kicker and QB, "See? They think you stink, and can't do this thing."

On Bagnoli's side of the argument you have:

Kicking under pressure from the end zone with only a 10 yard drop and kicking into the wind means that Lafayette probably sets up inside the Penn 35 with over 5 minutes to go. (The Lafayette punt returner had staked out his territory at the Penn 32 to receive the punt. As an added note, Lafayette had to start their final drive from their own 45 following the free kick by Penn.)

A botched or blocked punt attempt yields one of 3 results - all bad: 1. a safety, 2. a touchdown, or 3. Lafayette possession inside the Penn 10.

Lafayette's freshman kicker had given no reason to create a feeling of confidence on the maroon sideline nor fear on the Penn side. He had missed 3 of 3 in the first two games, and was 1 of 2 in this game. He had shown little leg strength on kickoffs to present a threat for even a medium range effort.

The Lafayette offense had spent the 2nd half marching up and down the field, but consistently shooting themselves in the foot at inopportune times. They had been unable to "finish" anything.

The Penn offense had done very little since the middle of the 2nd quarter. This was true even before tailback Joe Sandberg sustained his injury. Now, no matter what, Sandberg would not be available for any last ditch drive.

I'm not saying that Bagnoli made a good decision, but it is not, in my opinion, as "obvious" as the final results make it appear.

[Lafayette71]

I think it's a case of a guy out thinking himself. Lafayette hadn't been able to muster a touchdown drive in the first 55 minute of the game, so just punt the ball and let your defense finsh what they started. Even with a short field the Leopards were no lock to punch it in at that point. By taking the safety you give the opponent the option to play for the FG. This is what allowed Tavani to run the clock out. If Lafayette needed a touchdown, Lafayette would be in a hurry up mode, trying to get the opportunity for two possesions in that last five minutes. Instead they got into a position for a short FG attempt and played for a "last shot". It's obviously easier to dissect this decision now that we know the outcome, but I still think that you have to punt in that situation. if Penn had been up 6, I think that's when you make that call.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it's a case of a guy out thinking himself. Lafayette hadn't been able to muster a touchdown drive in the first 55 minute of the game, so just punt the ball and let your defense finsh what they started. Even with a short field the Leopards were no lock to punch it in at that point. By taking the safety you give the opponent the option to play for the FG. This is what allowed Tavani to run the clock out. If Lafayette needed a touchdown, Lafayette would be in a hurry up mode, trying to get the opportunity for two possesions in that last five minutes. Instead they got into a position for a short FG attempt and played for a "last shot". It's obviously easier to dissect this decision now that we know the outcome, but I still think that you have to punt in that situation. if Penn had been up 6, I think that's when you make that call.

Absolutely, since they would still need a TD to win either way.

[RichH2]

While LC desrves kudos for nice win , why aren't we looking at Randolph at HC and for that matter Gilmore moving those kids up more than a few notches. While LU,LC and Gate are busy patting themselves on the back, deservrdely so, HC did quite a job on a decent Harvard team with Randolph running the basic Air Lehigh offense that Coen seems to think is passe. It is going to be interesting to see if any of us can defense this team.

[LehighFan11]

I would have to agree that the Penn coach made a huge mistake by taking a saftey. I would be ok with taking a saftey with 5 minutes to go if they didnt have to do a free kick. A free kick after a saftey puts the other team at their own 30-45 yard line. That means they only need to drive 40 yards in 5 minutes to kick a fg, which is very easy to do. I wasnt at the game nor did i watch it on tv but for those lafayette fans that think having to score a touchdown would of been no problem beacuse they were moving the ball at will is insane. The score was 7-5 before the game winning fg, I wouldnt call 5 points "moving the ball at will." All and all great wins for HC, Lafayette, and Lehigh. Lets see if we can keep it going against the Ivies.

[LehighFan11]

While LC desrves kudos for nice win , why aren't we looking at Randolph at HC and for that matter Gilmore moving those kids up more than a few notches. While LU,LC and Gate are busy patting themselves on the back, deservrdely so, HC did quite a job on a decent Harvard team with Randolph running the basic Air Lehigh offense that Coen seems to think is passe. It is going to be interesting to see if any of us can defense this team.

I agree, i was very impressed with Holy Cross being able to come back against Umass and give them a game as well as their win v. Harvard. Randolph is a great QB and can put up impressive statisitics. I am a little worried when i look at his box scores and see over 50 pass attempts. You cant consistently win just throwing the football. I know a big reason Lehigh beat HC last year was the rain affected HC's ability to air it out. Lehigh has a mostly senior based secondary which looked horrible agaisnt 'Nova but should end up being the best secondary in the PL. The Lehigh v. HC will be an interesting game of strengths v. strengths.

[bison137]

Statistically speaking, taking the safety is a huge mistake. The probability of yielding a TD after a punt from your own end zone is much smaller than the probability of yielding a FG after a punt from the 20. This is easy to demonstrate.

Also, I'm curious as to how it is obvious that a team that hasn't scored one TD the entire day was a sure thing to score a TD at the end. Even against the Bucknell defense, it wouldn't be a sure thing. :)

[Franks Tanks]

Statistically speaking, taking the safety is a huge mistake. The probability of yielding a TD after a punt from your own end zone is much smaller than the probability of yielding a FG after a punt from the 20. This is easy to demonstrate.

Also, I'm curious as to how it is obvious that a team that hasn't scored one TD the entire day was a sure thing to score a TD at the end. Even against the Bucknell defense, it wouldn't be a sure thing. :)

Not a sure thing, just saying they drove down to the 10 and meandered around and let the clock run down at that point, so it was still an impressive drive that could have produced a TD if they tried. My point was that even if Bagnoli did punt, LaFayette could have still put together an impressive drive to score. Bagnolli's decision wasnt solely responsible for his team losing

[Lehigh Football Nation]

While LC desrves kudos for nice win , why aren't we looking at Randolph at HC and for that matter Gilmore moving those kids up more than a few notches. While LU,LC and Gate are busy patting themselves on the back, deservrdely so, HC did quite a job on a decent Harvard team with Randolph running the basic Air Lehigh offense that Coen seems to think is passe. It is going to be interesting to see if any of us can defense this team.

Gilmore did a great job against Harvard, but you could also make a case that Murphy played conservative and it bit him. He didn't have confidence he could make a 4th-and-inches to seal the game?

Still, am impressed that they drove the length of the field to score *without timeouts*.

[LCFan21]

[QUOTE=LehighFan11;655327]I wasnt at the game nor did i watch it on tv but for those lafayette fans that think having to score a touchdown would of been no problem beacuse they were moving the ball at will is insane. The score was 7-5 before the game winning fg, I wouldnt call 5 points "moving the ball at will."

For not seeing the game I think "Insane" is a little bit of a strong word to use. First off - Penn's D was on the field A LOT in the second half - in the 4th Qtr alone we had the ball for 10 minutes - our offense was getting stronger and wearing on them - you could see it - we took the ball down to the 10 in about 12 plays - we had all our TO's - plenty of time - we only needed a few yards to make it first and goal - at that point they played it safe and elected to just let the clock run down as far as possible - nothing is a sure thing but my point was that ALL of the momentum shifted and our guys were not going to be denied based on the circumstances I was seeing. Insane - I don't think so.

[Lafayette71]

Not a sure thing, just saying they drove down to the 10 and meandered around and let the clock run down at that point, so it was still an impressive drive that could have produced a TD if they tried. My point was that even if Bagnoli did punt, LaFayette could have still put together an impressive drive to score. Bagnolli's decision wasnt solely responsible for his team losing

The Pards deserve the credit for the win. Yes it was a mistake in hindsight to take the safety, but the players still had to come through with the game on the line, and the Leopards put together a drive when they had to, and won the game. This was really the first time this team has been tested this year, and they came through with the win.

[ngineer]

I agree, i was very impressed with Holy Cross being able to come back against Umass and give them a game as well as their win v. Harvard. Randolph is a great QB and can put up impressive statisitics. I am a little worried when i look at his box scores and see over 50 pass attempts. You cant consistently win just throwing the football. I know a big reason Lehigh beat HC last year was the rain affected HC's ability to air it out. Lehigh has a mostly senior based secondary which looked horrible agaisnt 'Nova but should end up being the best secondary in the PL. The Lehigh v. HC will be an interesting game of strengths v. strengths.

While I agree we have an experienced secondary, you can only cover good receivers so long. The key is till getting good pressure on the QB so he makes the hurried throw that the experienced DB recognizes and intercepts.

[hc12]

I agree, i was very impressed with Holy Cross being able to come back against Umass and give them a game as well as their win v. Harvard. Randolph is a great QB and can put up impressive statisitics. I am a little worried when i look at his box scores and see over 50 pass attempts. You cant consistently win just throwing the football. I know a big reason Lehigh beat HC last year was the rain affected HC's ability to air it out. Lehigh has a mostly senior based secondary which looked horrible agaisnt 'Nova but should end up being the best secondary in the PL. The Lehigh v. HC will be an interesting game of strengths v. strengths.

you can put the ball up 50 times in this offense because they have 2 attacks if the defense plays off the receivers hc will go underneath with the small stuff, if cb play tight bump and run they go deep and use crossing routes. the one thing that is going to get them in troubl is trying to set up the running game with the pass.in most cases it is not effective ,and if you can not run the ball then you become 1 dimensional,and thats why they use the wr. in there running game to spread you out to open lanes.xrotatehx

[ngineer]

For me, it's a risk/reward thing. Let's say the punt is blocked. What's the chance that Lafayette recovers it in the end zone and gets a TD to go ahead? Pretty slim, but even if they do you get the ball back with 5 minutes to go with a chance to tie or win. What's the chance that it goes over his head or the punter muffs it? Better than Lafayette recovering, but if it happens you're still up 7-5 and the same scenario would have played out. What if he gets the punt off, and gets a horrible kick or the Leopards get a great return? Lafayette sets up shop at (say) the 20, but they still need a TD to beat you. It's a lot easier to keep a team out of the end zone than it is to get them out of FG range. Furthermore, Lafayette could get a great return whether coming off the safety or punting out of the end zone.

My biggest problems with this are that it 1) showed zero confidence in his offense, and 2) it didn't even allow his offense back onto the field for a chance to win the game. Never mind you now give coach Tavani a chance to tell his kicker and QB, "See? They think you stink, and can't do this thing."

That's the point I think is being missed. Lafayette had not scored a TD all day..and the Offense only put up 3 points...Many times teams are able to move the ball between the 20's, but can't punch it in. Penn eliminated that scenario.xrotatehx