Question for the all knowing AGS Community

[Khan4Cats]

In listening to some of the post-game commentary/melt-down on the Iowa State Radio Network, one comment was made by one of the hosts of their call-in show with regards to scholarships that has me thinking/wondering for clarification purposes.

This is/was the point: FBS schools have more scholarships, but FCS schools are allowed to split scholarships among players where FBS schools cannot. Thus, an FCS school could have 75, 85, 90 players receiving some form of financial aid, while FBS schools are held to their limit of "full-ride only" scholarships.

1) Is this true?

2) Does this really provide any kind of long-term leveling of the advantage with more full-ride versus multiple partials?

I know there has got to be someone on here who knows the rule.

[bisonguy]

FCS schools may only award up to 63 grants, distributed up to 85 student-athletes.

[bisonguy]

Here's the official wording:


15.5.5.2 Division I-AA Football. [I-AA] There shall be an annual limit of 30 on the number of ini-
tial counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1), an annual limit of 63 on the value of financial aid awards
(equivalencies) to counters, and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including
initial counters) in football at each Division I-AA institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92)

From the NCAA DI Manual (http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2006-07/2006-07_d1_manual.pdf)

[Khan4Cats]

Thanks for the link.

The way I read that then is, both FBS and FCS can have 85 players on some form of assistance from the school. Full ride in the case of FBS, partials in the case of FCS.

Interesting, does this cause a potential for manipulation by FCS schools to 'stockpile' young talent initially and mine for stars while weeding out busts? In other words, could an FCS school bring in several youngsters on partial scholarships and then elevate those that shine to full-ride later while dropping those that don't pan out?

[EKU05]

I'm not completely sure, but I don't think hardly any school in the auto-bid conferences makes frequent use of partial scholarships. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the best players would turn their nose up at a partial scholarship offer. Perhaps a few of the reserves, but I kind of even doubt that in most cases.

[JohnStOnge]

I'm not completely sure, but I don't think hardly any school in the auto-bid conferences makes frequent use of partial scholarships. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the best players would turn their nose up at a partial scholarship offer. Perhaps a few of the reserves, but I kind of even doubt that in most cases.

I think he's right. I don't think UNI, for instance, is likely to have a lot of partial scholarships.

Besides, c'mon...a BCS league school...even on like Iowa State... is going to have a recruiting advantage over a FCS school like UNI. Very rarely is a player that's seriously offered a scholarship to a BCS league school as going to turn it down. If it does happen it's probably going to be because the BCS league school comes in late as an afterthought or because it lost somebody else and needs to fill a slot.

[GOKATS]

Thanks for the link.

The way I read that then is, both FBS and FCS can have 85 players on some form of assistance from the school. Full ride in the case of FBS, partials in the case of FCS.

Interesting, does this cause a potential for manipulation by FCS schools to 'stockpile' young talent initially and mine for stars while weeding out busts? In other words, could an FCS school bring in several youngsters on partial scholarships and then elevate those that shine to full-ride later while dropping those that don't pan out?

Absolutely, but I wouldn't call it manipulation- it's just the way it is. In addition there are walkons, many of whom prove out and get at least a partial or full schollie. I don't know how prevelant it is nationwide, but in a conference like the BSC where schools like MSU and UM are limited in getting in-state recruits it's definitely part of the whole package.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter whether it's FCS or FBS- Schollies are awarded on a one year basis and can be renewed or cancelled.

[AppGirl]

Absolutely, but I wouldn't call it manipulation- it's just the way it is. In addition there are walkons, many of whom prove out and get at least a partial or full schollie. I don't know how prevelant it is nationwide, but in a conference like the BSC where schools like MSU and UM are limited in getting in-state recruits it's definitely part of the whole package.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter whether it's FCS or FBS- Schollies are awarded on a one year basis and can be renewed or cancelled.

A great example of this is Kevin Richardson at ASU. He walked on and was 6th on the depth chart. Coach didn't even know his name. I'm fairly certain that K-Rich is now on a full schollie. xsmiley_wix

Also, we have a freshman this year, don't know who, who turned down a scholarship elsewhere, because he wanted to play for App. So now he's on the team, but no scholarship, at least yet.

[igo4uni]

Besides, c'mon...a BCS league school...even on like Iowa State... is going to have a recruiting advantage over a FCS school like UNI.

Do you realize how much the Iowa State Cyclowns suck??




;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

You do raise a good point, though!!!!

[Khan4Cats]

A great example of this is Kevin Richardson at ASU. He walked on and was 6th on the depth chart. Coach didn't even know his name. I'm fairly certain that K-Rich is now on a full schollie. xsmiley_wix

Also, we have a freshman this year, don't know who, who turned down a scholarship elsewhere, because he wanted to play for App. So now he's on the team, but no scholarship, at least yet.

I'm familiar with the type of story. Eric Sanders was another one who fits this mold. The year he was recruited it came down to between him and a kid who played at one of the larger high schools in the state for a scholarship and the coaching staff decided to go with the other kid. After a couple of days, Sanders called the staff and asked if he could still walk-on and try to earn a scholarship. I'd say that he has done that and more.xthumbsupx

Our head coach was also a walk-on. An All-American Honors earning walk-on at that. Coach Farley the Walk-on from Waukon (a small town in Iowa).:)

Thanks for the responses on this. As I said, I was curious because I heard this as one of the excuses during the cyclowns post-game call-in rants. "They really don't have fewer scholarship players, because they get to spread theirs out..." yada, yada, whine, whine... xbawlingx xbawlingx

[appfan2008]

i dont believe that asu splits any of theres but i could be wrong of course!

[Green26]

Montana uses partial scholarships frequently. In recent years, UM's scholarship offering has evolved to what is essentially as follows: full rides to more or most out-of-state recruits (as they won't come on a partial); partial scholarships to good in-state recruits, unless they are being offered by I-A schools (in which they get full rides); other in-state kids are asked to walk-on; full rides to recruited and highly touted transfers; walk-on status for other transfers. Since scholarships are for only 1 year (thru 6/30, I believe), schools can re-adjust on scholarships after spring ball. It is difficult to take a scholarship away from a player, but the same result is sometimes achieved by informing the player that he isn't in the top 2 of the depth chart and isn't going to see the field much. What I've said is based on what I've read and heard, and not on conversations with coaches.

Since scholarships are re-awarded and renewed each year (6/30), in theory, the coaches can make significant readjustments each year. I don't think this occurs, tho. Generally, players who were on partials or were walk-ons get more or full rides and walk-ons get partials or full rides--as they get onto the two-deep depth charts or close to it.

I believe that partials have to be divided according to actual categories of costs, like tuition, room, board, etc., and there is not a percentage or dollar allocation.

Another potential recruiting advantage for I-AA is that the coaches are allowed more than one in-home visit with recruits, and I-A coaches are allowed only one visit. Thus, when going head-to-head with a I-A team, I-AA coaches have this advantage (altho the I-A school usually has other advantages). This was the rule as of several years ago, and I'm not aware that it's been changed.

[turfdoc]

Now I admit I am far from an authority on this but even though scholarships are renewed yearly, if the student athlete is in good acadmic standing and shows up for meetings and practices and doesn' t get into trouble it is next to impossible to take a scholarship away.

UNless the rules have changed since the 90's the only way a coach can get the scholarship back is to "convince" the kind to quit. That usually severely hurts future recuiting and is a lose/lose situation.

I like many others have heard the I got hurt so they took my scholarship away story...or the a transfer came in and stole my scholarship...from my experience that is not really possible the student athletes if they are well informed are well protected.

That being said there are some unsaory coaches and some ill informed athletes out there.

[Green26]

I don't think this statement is accurate:

"UNless the rules have changed since the 90's the only way a coach can get the scholarship back is to "convince" the kind to quit."

[Cap'n Cat]

I don't think this statement is accurate:

"UNless the rules have changed since the 90's the only way a coach can get the scholarship back is to "convince" the kind to quit."


This happens, Green. Or, at least it did when I was GA'g at Northern Iowa. They're rather stuck with a non-performer until he quits. Sometimes, coaches work to make the situation intolerable for a guy tying up scholarship money. I've seen it.

[HensRock]

I think most full-scholarhip limit programs in I-AA will offer at least 60 of the 63 equivalences in the form of full rides and then have 1 or 2 equivalencies to split up as partials. The caller was half right. I-A Scholarships cannot be split They must all be full rides - up to 85 of them. I-AA has 63 equivalencies which can be split but, as the NDSU fan pointed out they still cannot have more than 85 kids on some form/amount of financial aid. In common practice, I don't think any I-AA schools get even close to 85 kids on scholarship.

[AppGirl]

i dont believe that asu splits any of theres but i could be wrong of course!

Yes, we do. I don't know how much, but I have heard Coach Moore say we do.

[rufus]

I'm pretty sure JMU uses partial scholarships fairly frequently. I think there was a thread on the caazone board last year where someone mentioned that we had a total of 70-75 players on scholarship. I could be wrong though.

[turfdoc]

This happens, Green. Or, at least it did when I was GA'g at Northern Iowa. They're rather stuck with a non-performer until he quits. Sometimes, coaches work to make the situation intolerable for a guy tying up scholarship money. I've seen it.


Walt was particularly good (see bad) at creating a harsh environment. The problem is this never works because it will hurt recruiting in the long run. Coaches have to live with their mistakes and be better evaluators or developers of talent.

Generally once you sign the letter of intent and the school grants the scholarship I think you are protected. it is more a matter if you want to be somewhere you are not wanted.

[blur2005]

I'm pretty sure you can't just take away a scholarship. There has to be some kind of extinuating circumstance, such as criminal activity or poor academic standing. If a player gets hurt and can't play anymore, the school can't just ditch him either.

[Catsfan2]

I could be wrong too, but I believe some schools split scholarships accross sports. For example an athlete can get a half-ride for football, and another half for lacrosse. The athlete gets a full scholly, but the FB program only needs to count it as a half.

[Green26]

On the question of whether scholarships can be "taken away" (or not renewed):

1. NCAA rules prohibit scholarships longer than one year. Scholarships are awarded annually.

2. From the U of Washington website:

"An athletic grant-in-aid is awarded for a maximum period of one academic year, fall through spring, and must be renewed, increased, reduced or canceled by the Office of Student Financial Aid by July 1 each year. If your athletic grant-in-aid is not recommended for renewal or is reduced, the Office of Student Financial Aid will notify you of an opportunity for a hearing to appeal this decision to the UW Athletic Financial Aid Committee.
...

Grants-in-aid are allocated at the discretion of the head coach. [Note the word "discretion".] If you are recommended by the head coach for an athletic grant-in-aid and it is approved by the Athletic Director and the Director of Student Financial Aid, an award letter is mailed to you.
...

Conditions that cannot cause the reduction or cancellation of your athletic grant-in-aid DURING the academic year [Note that this says during academic year, not renewal]:

Illness or injury which prevents participation
Athletic ability, performance, or contribution to a team’s success

3. From the UNCW website:

"One-Year Limit

There is no guaranteed four-year athletics scholarship in Division I. An athletics scholarship is awarded for one academic year but it may be renewed at the end of each academic year."

4. From an athletic website:

"Scholarships are renewed each year. It is very rare to not have a scholarship renewed unless you have broken school rules and are suspended or you fail out of college."


I'd be happy to see other information, learning and sources on this subject.

[Reed Rothchild]

I think he's right. I don't think UNI, for instance, is likely to have a lot of partial scholarships.



Actually, UNI gives most of its in-state kids partial scholarships to start and save the full schollys for the out of state ones. They then build up the money a kid gets based on their performance and contributions to the team. Out of state tuition is much more at UNI than in-state so they like to use more money to get some kids in from elsewhere.