Albany & Stony Brook commit to NEC through 2010

[henfan]

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=393510&category=SPORTS&BCCode=&newsdate=8/30/2005

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Reading between the lines....

"Albany and SB commit to NEC until 2010..."

... at which time they may break and form their own scholarship conference.

Wouldn't it take 5 years to transition to a higher number of schollies anyway? That's assuming the NEC doesn't make its own transition to higher schollies. This could be Albany and SB saying "get your act together in 5 years, or we're gone".

[colgate13]

Anyone know if the CAA has a time committment to the affiliates?

[henfan]

I've not been able to find out the terms of commitment for the CAA affiliates. My best guess is a two year term with a penalty option, which is what the case is for full conference members.

I'd be very surprised if the CAA and at least some of its affiliates hadn't already worked out a mutally agreeable timetable for eventual separation. Maybe 2011 is the target year everyone is looking at.

Incidentally, 2011 would be two years after Old Dominion is tentatively slated to start its program.

[colgate13]

I think those NEC members have that in mind...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think those NEC members have that in mind...

No lose for Albany and SB. They would be in the driver's seat. They would have every option open to them - possibly to wait for the NEC to become what they want it to become, with more schollies and a playoff bid. Or, join with Maine, UNH, URI, maybe Villanova, maybe UMass, maybe Richmond to form the new Yankee Conference in 2011.

It would also give Georgia State and George Mason time to make up their minds as to whether they want to join up with the CAA. Lot of dominoes have to fall, but it looks intriguing.

If this happens, you have to think Richmond will be looking long and hard about the Patriot again. Villanova less so - but the Patriot could absolutely be a fallback.

An interesting X-factor. Suppose the Patriot League decides to go to real full scholarships instead of grants-in-aid. Would they be better poised to grab Richmond and/or Villanova? Could that bust up the new Yankee conference?

[henfan]

Because of the NCAA voting structure, it's highly unlikely we'd ever see the return of the Yankee Conference, per se. In order for the schools you mentioned to form their own league, the NEC or America East would have to do something. It's a longshot but it might make sense someday for UMaine, UNH, UMass (maybe), URI, Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU and Monmouth.

In any case, I don't see the incentive for either Richmond or Villanova to ever be part of that sort of league, especially as long as an option to play in the CAA or Patriot exists.

[colgate13]

Patriot League w/scholarships opens up a lot of options. Do that and win some more OOC and playoffs and it won't really be an issue if Richmond or Nova joined the PL. It would be a no brainer.

[henfan]

I really don't think UR or VU joining the PL is simply a matter of the league changing its policy on awarding athletic scholarships. Whether you call an equivalancy an athletic scholarship or grant-in-aid, the value is the same to the institution. UR was fairly clear about this point last spring when the matter was being considered.

VU and UR appear more concerned with competiting in leagues that offer them the greatest opportunity for rivalries. Both VU's and UR's chief rivals compete in the CAA. VU only has one long-standing rivalry with a PL school (Fordham), while UR has none.

IMO, there would have to be compelling competitive or financial reasons for VU or UR to leave the CAA. I'm not seeing that the PL could offer either anytime soon.

[colgate13]

IMO, there would have to be compelling competitive or financial reasons for VU or UR to leave the CAA. I'm not seeing that the PL could offer either anytime soon.

The PL does offer an insitutional branding opportunity that appeals to presidents, so I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility.

However, I don't think that's the reason why it would happen. My UR/VU to the PL scenarios pretty much all hang on the CAA telling the affiliates: "We've got 3 full conference members who now offer football, so we're going to have to let you go now" or either school not wanting to be part of a 14 team league that consists of state schools.

IMHO crystal ball scenario (all only possible once scholarships are in the PL for football): UR will be lured by academic prestige and an better effort will be done to convince alums they're not downgrading the program. VU will be lured by Jesuit relationships, the PA schools being natural rivals and the opportunity to still schedule UD OCC. Not to mention travel costs being reduced and autobid opportunities increased.

It won't happen overnight, but that's my long range "farmers almanac" vision.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the CAA casts off any schools, RU will be the first - punishment for leaving the CAA in the first place.

After that, I think they'd cast off the "associate Yankee 4" in URI, UMass, UMaine and UNH in that order.

Only then will the CAA, begrudgingly, give up Villanova.

I think if UR or VU leave, they would instantly arrange for an OOC game every year with W&M and UD respectively.

[bluehenbillk]

But we'd only play VU in Newark. :)

[henfan]

Colgate13, the PL's institutional branding issue would be a much more relevant factor, if the CAA didn't have such strong academic rep.

I totally missed the Jesuit angle, specifically, VU & Holy Cross. Schnikees! That's a highly desirable rivalry that I totally missed. Good point, actually several.

That said, I don't think there's any guarantee that UD/W&M and VU would schedule each other every year if they weren't all conference partners. With respect to UD-VU, the rivalry is terrific but not all that essential competitively or financially to either school. Sadly, the UD-LU series is a good example of what happens when teams go to different conferences. (FYI, UD has played LU more frequently than it has played VU.)

[Fordham]

actually HC, Fordham & G-town are all Jesuit. 'Nova is Catholic but Augistinian if I remember correctly. Nonetheless, I'd agree that there is a good and natural connection between all schools.

[Husky Alum]

I was told that the affiliate agreements for the non-CAA football schools are somewhat one sided to favor the CAA, and there's no real "penalty" for leaving, but the schools can be asked to leave within a "reasonable" period of time, for effectively no good reason whatsoever, as long as there's a vote (And I think it's like a 3/4 majority).

I did get this third hand, however.

[DFW HOYA]

Bottom line, Richmond didn't want to join the PL if it made them non-competitive with W&M. Villanova doesnn't want to be non-competitive with UDel and one I-A a year. If the PL allowed them to be just as competitive, through scholarships, grants, or whatever, the institutional resistance goes away.

The problem is whether the Valley-centric PL leadership will avoid expansion in order to protect Lafayette and Bucknell from schools with more financial resources...the kind of resources that will marginalize these teams in a stronger conference. How much different would the PL look if you added Villanova and Richmond, not to mention a Georgetown team recruiting with a full complement of grants and not a fraction thereof?

The PL leadership likes seeing Lehigh and Lafayette as the marquee teams right now and has otherwise ignored the fact that they have proud programs like Holy Cross and Georgetown stuck in neutral at the end of the standings. If that situation were reversed, and you added UR and Villanova to the top tier, how soon would you start hearing how expansion will ruin the league?

[Ken_Z]

The problem is whether the Valley-centric PL leadership will avoid expansion in order to protect Lafayette and Bucknell from schools with more financial resources...the kind of resources that will marginalize these teams in a stronger conference. How much different would the PL look if you added Villanova and Richmond, not to mention a Georgetown team recruiting with a full complement of grants and not a fraction thereof?

The PL leadership likes seeing Lehigh and Lafayette as the marquee teams right now and has otherwise ignored the fact that they have proud programs like Holy Cross and Georgetown stuck in neutral at the end of the standings. If that situation were reversed, and you added UR and Villanova to the top tier, how soon would you start hearing how expansion will ruin the league?

DFW,

i don't follow a couple of your points:

1) categorization as Bucknell as a relatively financially weaker institution. how do you reach this conclusion? relative to Richmond yes, but compared to other PLs?

2) why do you think the attitude would turn anti expansion if HC and G'town were at the top?

[Fordham]

one word ken: east coast jesuit bias

[Ken_Z]

one word ken: east coast jesuit bias

maybe i am dense and unobservant, but i never noticed such a bias against Catholics (i grew up in the northeast, but have moved away). even if it exists, how does that cause one to decide that expansion of a college conference is bad? i fail to see how Jesuit schools being at the top at a particular time would change an opinion on this.

[henfan]

Over the last 8 years, there's arguably been little competitive difference between VU & RU and the mid to upper teams in the Patriot League. I don't think either of those schools are interested in 'out-resourcing' the Colgate or Lehigh football programs, even if they could. VU & RU could be highly competitive in the PL, but I don't think they'd dominate. Frankly, I think the PL would allow VU & RU to be just as competitive as they are presently, but there are other issues to consider.

The lack of a natural geographic/historic rival in the PL though seriously hurts when trying to attract UR, especially when it would mean walking away from a century long rivalry with W&M, and other short term series with JMU and UD. The PL offers no analogues and would add marginally to UR's travel expenses. Add VMI and it might be more reasonable.

I'm starting to warm more to the idea that an eventual move would make sense for VU. However, there are still many vocal holdovers at VU who believe the Cats should be playing in the NFC East.

[colgate13]

DFW -

I have to take a hearty disagreement with you here. PL leadership consists of university presidents. They're happy to have Lehigh (and this next part I take issue with too) and Lafayette as marquee teams and that's it? When did Lafayette become a marquee team? They won the title last year. Great. They've got to keep that up before you start labeling them as marquee, especially when the rest of their athletic program has been in the doldrums with other schools taking on scholarships.

But more importanly, if the PL leadership were fine with the status quo than Lehigh or Colgate would be at the top as they've been for the past 10 years. But that's not the case. Fordham became competitive in 2002. Lafayette won it last year. Bucknell is on the move. I see more movement and parity now than 5 years ago. That says to me things aren't staying the same. I think HC is getting their act together too.

I also don't think LU or BU's financial resources are at issue here. IMO (and based on some facts) I think all PL teams sans G'Town are spending some serious dough on their programs. Nova and UR don't spend much if any more, that's for sure.

I don't see anyone in the PL fine with the fact that HC and G'Town have been down. But those are really institutional issues. What can Colgate or Lehigh do to help their programs? I would say the ONLY thing they can do is what they have been doing: win and increase the stature of the league! Seriously, what can another school or league do to help one school that seemed complacent with losing as long as hoops was good (HC) and another that won't spend the dough that other schools are (G'Town)? That rests squarely with the schools. HC looks to have made some effort to change. I don't know about G'Town's equivalencies, but they're building a new stadium. That's one hell of a right step in the right direction.

If the PL expanded I wouldn't expect to hear one peep of complaint unless it was from idealouges trying to complain about scholarships and if so, they're hypocrites because we give them in other sports. UR/VU and heck, VMI would be outstanding additions to the leauge. You then have a nice southern component to what has been a PL/NY/MA league. It makes great sense to me.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm starting to warm more to the idea that an eventual move would make sense for VU. However, there are still many vocal holdovers at VU who believe the Cats should be playing in the NFC East.

I am a bit cool to VU joining the PL, because they don't offer the PL enough. They don't expand the PL's geographic area, and their stadium isn't great. Ostensibly we'd have better rivalries with the other A-10 and Big East Basketball affiliates (G'Town and Fordham), and potential regional rivalries with Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell, but to me that's wait-and-see. I'm real hesitant about having 50% of the PL being based in Pennsylvania.

I'd rather see VMI, Johns Hopkins or Richmond, in that order.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

DFW -

I have to take a hearty disagreement with you here. PL leadership consists of university presidents. They're happy to have Lehigh (and this next part I take issue with too) and Lafayette as marquee teams and that's it? When did Lafayette become a marquee team? They won the title last year. Great. They've got to keep that up before you start labeling them as marquee, especially when the rest of their athletic program has been in the doldrums with other schools taking on scholarships.

I wonder if the SoCon has these same conversations? "Georgia Southern and Furman are the marquee teams - it's Statesboro-centric - what about TN-Chattanooga?" Probably, so maybe that doesn't help much.

I think G'Town or HC - or Colgate and Bucknell for that matter - is getting adequate representation in the league office. I can't think of any decision that's been made that penalizes the non-Valley teams or benefts the Valley teams more than the others.

If anything, I think the push is to get out of the valley and expand into Maryland or Virginia.

[Fordham]

maybe i am dense and unobservant, but i never noticed such a bias against Catholics (i grew up in the northeast, but have moved away). even if it exists, how does that cause one to decide that expansion of a college conference is bad? i fail to see how Jesuit schools being at the top at a particular time would change an opinion on this. it was strictly tongue-in-cheek, ken. hence the word 'one' was italicized since it actually included a 3 word answer.

:D

[Ken_Z]

it was strictly tongue-in-cheek, ken. hence the word 'one' was italicized since it actually included a 3 word answer.

:D

well there you go, proof that i am dense and unobservant.

[colgate13]

I am a bit cool to VU joining the PL, because they don't offer the PL enough. They don't expand the PL's geographic area, and their stadium isn't great. Ostensibly we'd have better rivalries with the other A-10 and Big East Basketball affiliates (G'Town and Fordham), and potential regional rivalries with Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell, but to me that's wait-and-see. I'm real hesitant about having 50% of the PL being based in Pennsylvania.

I'd rather see VMI, Johns Hopkins or Richmond, in that order.

My long term dreams see a break up of the Big East and a rapidly increasing basketball strength for the PL. I want VU in place in the PL as an affiliate in 2 sports when they need a home. G'Town as well...

If Hopkins was serious about D-I, they'd move to the head of my class though too. Talk about a lax conference!