Not to rain on this parade, but WTH was App State Coach doing??

[UofRfan]

Kicking on first down with that much time left? Almost cost them the greatest scalp in FCS/1-AA history. I'm sure he was scared of making a mistake like a fumble or something but WTF. Worried the time would run out if the QB ran to the middle of field quick then had to spike since the refs could have taken some time? Considering Mich only needed a FG to win after that I don't get it. And for the record we were thinking this as it happened, not just because Michigan hit the low percentage hail mary type pass to set up the game winner.

Very glad it all worked out.

[appheel]

I was wondering the same thing at the time. But when I think about it now, I see his logic. No time outs left. If you call a running play and it fails, then you have to rush into the field goal attempt, which could be disastrous. If you call a pass play, you risk an interception (Armanti already had 2 in the half). Coach Moore had faith in his defense, which almost also proved disastrous. Thankfully they held on, or else poor Quick would be replaying that dropped TD for the rest of his life.

[ngineer]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, but as pointed out above, without any timeouts it was a dangerous to place to be in. With all the noise and excitement, the potential for a miscue was there. I think if Moore had the luxury of a timeout he would have bled the clock, some.

[Jerbearasu]

I was wondering the same thing at the time. But when I think about it now, I see his logic. No time outs left. If you call a running play and it fails, then you have to rush into the field goal attempt, which could be disastrous. If you call a pass play, you risk an interception (Armanti already had 2 in the half). Coach Moore had faith in his defense, which almost also proved disastrous. Thankfully they held on, or else poor Quick would be replaying that dropped TD for the rest of his life.

You don't run a play... It was first down; you take the snap run to the middle of the field fall down, line up and spike the ball with about 5 seconds left to bring up a 3rd down FG attempt... Coaching 101; however if you are a coach about to beat Michigan all you can think about is get those points on the board and I don't blame Moore for making that split second decision. Also, don't forget that it was Brian Quick who blocked the first FG attempt so he kept it a 1 point game to begin with...

[psc2445]

Kicking on first down with that much time left? Almost cost them the greatest scalp in FCS/1-AA history. I'm sure he was scared of making a mistake like a fumble or something but WTF. Worried the time would run out if the QB ran to the middle of field quick then had to spike since the refs could have taken some time? Considering Mich only needed a FG to win after that I don't get it. And for the record we were thinking this as it happened, not just because Michigan hit the low percentage hail mary type pass to set up the game winner.

Very glad it all worked out.

being in the stands and was stunned and couldnt believe we didnt make the kick the last play or atleast run it down to inside 10 secs. i thought we absolutely blew it. thank goodness the guys bailed them out. they just kept making plays, but that last play should not have had to been made. however now it is moot, but at the time i was severely irked

[appheel]

You don't run a play... It was first down; you take the snap run to the middle of the field fall down, line up and spike the ball with about 5 seconds left to bring up a 3rd down FG attempt... Coaching 101; however if you are a coach about to beat Michigan all you can think about is get those points on the board and I don't blame Moore for making that split second decision. Also, don't forget that it was Brian Quick who blocked the first FG attempt so he kept it a 1 point game to begin with...

My point was that my initial reaction was to go for the end zone, not just kick the field goal. You're right about spiking it though. And don't try to tell me that Quick wasn't going to think about that drop had we not won. I'm not trying to belittle his overall play.

[Jerbearasu]

And don't try to tell me that Quick wasn't going to think about that drop had we not won.

No argument there. I would have been mortified... I posted this statement on a different thread but I did not like all of the comments from UM (Carr, Long and Hart) about all of their miscues that led to the loss. IMO, our miscues were more detrimental (ie: dropped TD pass, missed FG, 3 turnovers to their 2) those equate to actual points. Both teams had mistakes. App played the better game. Why not just say App came out and executed a better game plan and left with a W that we could have had?

[No_Skill]

You don't run a play... It was first down; you take the snap run to the middle of the field fall down, line up and spike the ball with about 5 seconds left to bring up a 3rd down FG attempt... Coaching 101; however if you are a coach about to beat Michigan all you can think about is get those points on the board and I don't blame Moore for making that split second decision. Also, don't forget that it was Brian Quick who blocked the first FG attempt so he kept it a 1 point game to begin with...

Ok so they do this and under immense pressure the kicker misses...then what? Time is gone.

Picture this.

It's 1st down 30 seconds left. They go to kick the FG and miss. Now what...ohhh they get a second try.

That's what they were doing.

[PantherRob82]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

but I'm pretty sure if you miss you don't get another attempt. You only get another attempt if something is boteched and the kicker does not put his foot to the ball.

[appheel]

No argument there. I would have been mortified... I posted this statement on a different thread but I did not like all of the comments from UM (Carr, Long and Hart) about all of their miscues that led to the loss. IMO, our miscues were more detrimental (ie: dropped TD pass, missed FG, 3 turnovers to their 2) those equate to actual points. Both teams had mistakes. App played the better game. Why not just say App came out and executed a better game plan and left with a W that we could have had?

I completely agree. I've mentioned before that we did not play well for most of the 2nd half. In my biased opinion, we also had a lot of bad calls go against us. Roughing the kicker? That was a joke. And there was a lot of blatant holding and face-mask grabbing going on by Michigan that the refs conveniently ignored.

[NDSUFREAK]

Ok so they do this and under immense pressure the kicker misses...then what? Time is gone.

Picture this.

It's 1st down 30 seconds left. They go to kick the FG and miss. Now what...ohhh they get a second try.

That's what they were doing.

michigan then runs one play and the game is over.

[No_Skill]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

but I'm pretty sure if you miss you don't get another attempt. You only get another attempt if something is boteched and the kicker does not put his foot to the ball.

You're right. Damn it I need some coffee

At any rate if there is a botched snap they could have time to set up a kick.

[Jerbearasu]

You're right. Damn it I need some coffee

At any rate if there is a botched snap they could have time to set up a kick.

You are right about the botched snap and I almost included that in my initial post. But here is my counter-point; a botch snap is not as risky as giving a top-ranked opponent, with as many as 4 offensive all-americans, the ball back with 30 seconds left. WAY too many things can go wrong there. I mean a bad kickoff, a Hail Mary, a bunch of quick plays that get you in FG range.... Not to mention they kicked the FG off the hash mark--- wouldn't it be better to center yourself up for a straight shot?
Also, we all know that Michigan had that one TO left so if we had run to the middle of the field and fallen down they would be forced to use that TO. It would have left about 25 seconds on the clock; which after our FG attempt there would be roughly 20 secs left and Michigan would not have had the time out to get their kicker on the field for that FG attempt...

[pete4256]

If anyone saw the UGA/GT game in 1999, which featured Jasper Sanks's phantom fumble into the endzone with ten seconds remaining, then you know why Moore went ahead and kicked. Michigan scoring with 0:21 is about as likely as screwing up down around the five.

[FCS Preview]

A better question is why did Michigan go for 2 late in the 3rd quarter? True, making it puts them down by three, but there was a full quarter of FB left, and you have to believe if you're Michigan that you will score a TD. (which in fact, they did!)

Picture they go for, and convert, the PAT. Score is 31-27, App State.

Michigan scores again...converts the PAT and it's 34-31, Michigan winning.
App State's FG only ties the score, and we go to OT where Michigan has the advantage.

Instead they miss the first 2-point conversion and are forced to go for a 2nd one which they also miss.

(Of course, App State could go for the TD with 30 seconds left, taking 3 shots from 1st and Goal to score a TD before kicking the FG)

[pete4256]

A better question is why did Michigan go for 2 late in the 3rd quarter? True, making it puts them down by three, but there was a full quarter of FB left, and you have to believe if you're Michigan that you will score a TD. (which in fact, they did!)

Picture they go for, and convert, the PAT. Score is 31-27, App State.

Michigan scores again...converts the PAT and it's 34-31, Michigan winning.
App State's FG only ties the score, and we go to OT where Michigan has the advantage.

Instead they miss the first 2-point conversion and are forced to go for a 2nd one which they also miss.

(Of course, App State could go for the TD with 30 seconds left, taking 3 shots from 1st and Goal to score a TD before kicking the FG)

Going for two was a no-brainer. You can't take anything for granted, especially considering their offense's inability to throw the ball in the second half.

[FCS Preview]

Going for two was a no-brainer. You can't take anything for granted, especially considering their offense's inability to throw the ball in the second half.

Still, I just think going for it in the 3rd Q, even late in the 3rd, is too early. In the 4th, fine. But I think it was too early...

[EmeryZach]

I think No_Skill has been watching too much canadian football or something. They have crazy rules like that up there right? hahahaha

[bison137]

Yes, they clearly should have had the QB run the ball on first down and then spike it on second down.

One other thing that AS should have been thinking at the end is to tackle any receiver who gets behind a defender. Since it's only a 15 yard penalty in college (unlike the NFL), after the penalty Michigan still wouldn't have been anywhere near FG range with 6 seconds left - would have had to just launch a Hail Mary.

Now of course a defender is not going to think of this in the heat of the moment, but the coaches should have told them that before they went out onto the field. I've even seen H.S. coaches in this situation tell their defenders to tackle any receiver who has any shot at all to catch a deep pass.

[GreatAppSt]

30 seconnds no TO,s in the big house you snap and run to the center mich players pile on and ever so slowly get up only after a ref thelps them the ball never is set before time expires. answer kick it now.xthumbsupx

It's been an hour now since I returned home from Mich. And I'm of for a nap. Way to many threads to read at once.

[RobsPics]

Question to anyone who watched the entire game, were the Big 10 refs pretty fair in their calls? Or was their a noticable bias towards Mich? IF there was a slight bias, then that might have convinced ASU to go for the fg instead of risk a close call at the goal line

[Laserlips]

I don't think I care to "second guess" the coach who's team won the game yesterday..

Were there mistakes made? Sure, always arexwhistlex

APP STATE had more points on the scoreboard when time expired than Michigan.. Good enough for me. ( And, I'm a GSU fan).

Congrats to the Apps!


J. Pomeroy

[yosef1969]

I don't think I care to "second guess" the coach who's team won the game yesterday..

Were there mistakes made? Sure, always arexwhistlex

APP STATE had more points on the scoreboard when time expired than Michigan.. Good enough for me. ( And, I'm a GSU fan).

Congrats to the Apps!


J. Pomeroy

Agreed. However, the First thought is to run two plays, one to center the kick followed by a quick spike.

I think Coach Moore's logic had more to do with taking two additional snaps from center with a redshirt freshman reserve center and remember those are shotgun snaps b/c ASU has no plays under center.

[Laserlips]

Agreed. However, the First thought is to run two plays, one to center the kick followed by a quick spike.

I think Coach Moore's logic had more to do with taking two additional snaps from center with a redshirt freshman reserve center and remember those are shotgun snaps b/c ASU has no plays under center.



yosef1969:

If I were going to 2nd guess one of the coaches in yesterdays' game it would be the Coach who had his greatest threat (Hart) on the sidelines riding the stationary bike for a substantial part of the game..xoopsx

Maybe he was hurt? Don't know, but he didn't play "hurt" late in the game.


JP

[Jerbearasu]

Question to anyone who watched the entire game, were the Big 10 refs pretty fair in their calls? Or was their a noticable bias towards Mich? IF there was a slight bias, then that might have convinced ASU to go for the fg instead of risk a close call at the goal line

Refs seemed pretty even the entire game. I thought UM had a bad penalty call on the late hit after the return, that was a pretty cheap flag but other than that I didn't see any glaring calls...

[Go...gate]

Here's to Jerry Moore. A win for the ages. :)

[spdram]

Great job ASU, you made us all proud!

[GrizFanIRAQ]

All I can say is... MICHIGAN was mathematically eliminated in week 1 from the BCS Championship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!xthumbsupx

[appsfan]

You don't run a play... It was first down; you take the snap run to the middle of the field fall down, line up and spike the ball with about 5 seconds left to bring up a 3rd down FG attempt... Coaching 101; however if you are a coach about to beat Michigan all you can think about is get those points on the board and I don't blame Moore for making that split second decision. Also, don't forget that it was Brian Quick who blocked the first FG attempt so he kept it a 1 point game to begin with...

These were my thoughts exactly. In the end it all worked out and gave us a more fantastic finish (whew!)

[igo4uni]

I think that App should have run a play to center the ball, and then spiked it on 2nd down. It turned out ok in the end, but why give Michigan the ball with that much time left????

[HaveFunKc]

From an App fan at the game, I would have said clock management was one of the things we could have done better given it was week one in the Big House against Michigan. As noted already, 30 seconds left with a first down for the last FG (awesome that it worked out).
I remember we had punts earlier in the 4th quarter where we just lined up and kicked versus letting the play clock run down to the full 25 (while the game clock was running). We did this at least once if not twice... Left at least 11 clicks on the clock. If everything else went as it did, Michigan probably would never have gotten a crack at the last second FG...

But then again, we wouldn't have that great blocked kicked play forever embedded in our minds... :)

[Tailbone]

yosef1969:

If I were going to 2nd guess one of the coaches in yesterdays' game it would be the Coach who had his greatest threat (Hart) on the sidelines riding the stationary bike for a substantial part of the game..xoopsx

Maybe he was hurt? Don't know, but he didn't play "hurt" late in the game.


JP

I believe Hart had a thigh bruise. I'm sure the idea was to save him for the season and championship run. Bad decision. Michigan's season is over.

[Mr. C]

Question to anyone who watched the entire game, were the Big 10 refs pretty fair in their calls? Or was their a noticable bias towards Mich? IF there was a slight bias, then that might have convinced ASU to go for the fg instead of risk a close call at the goal line

The officiating was on the poor side. Others around me agreed with that assessment. The running into the punter call was terrible. ASU recovered a fumble on a kickoff that was reviewed and overturned when the evidence for overturning wasn't conclusive. There was a clip right in front of the officials at the point of attack on a punt return that was not flagged and helped set up a Michigan TD when the Wolverines got a long return. ASU was flagged for a face mask penalty on the same play. There was also Michigan holding on that play. There were several incidents where Michigan players commited personal fouls, grabbing face masks, etc., that were overlooked. It wasn't as bad as I've seen in FCS-FBS games, but it wasn't good.

[SO ILLmatic]

If you saw during the App St.'s final timeout, the coaches were arguing back and forth with each other. My opinion is that they were arguing with what to do on 1st down, no timeouts, and 30 seconds left to go in the game.

It appeared to me that Coach Moore wanted to do the logically thing which would be run it to the middle, quick spike on 2nd, and then they have two downs to get the hold right for the go-ahead FG. From the coaches reactions around him, it looks like they talked him into going for it on 1st.

After App made the FG, I said to myself that Manningham is going to beat somebody deep and they are going to kick the game winning FG. At this point I was hoping the Wolverines wouldn't do some uncalled for celebration after winning a game they were "supposed" to win.

But the rest of it ,as we know, is history. Cheers to the fans, players, community, and coaches of App State, and for the rest of us FCS fans as well.

[AZGrizFan]

Kicking on first down with that much time left? Almost cost them the greatest scalp in FCS/1-AA history. I'm sure he was scared of making a mistake like a fumble or something but WTF. Worried the time would run out if the QB ran to the middle of field quick then had to spike since the refs could have taken some time? Considering Mich only needed a FG to win after that I don't get it. And for the record we were thinking this as it happened, not just because Michigan hit the low percentage hail mary type pass to set up the game winner.

Very glad it all worked out.

And was that not the ugliest field goal in history? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[blur2005]

And was that not the ugliest field goal in history? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
I had similar thoughts:) . But hey, it still counted. And that kicker will never forget that kick.

[ysubigred]

I think that App should have run a play to center the ball, and then spiked it on 2nd down. It turned out ok in the end, but why give Michigan the ball with that much time left????

Yup. Exactly what I was going to say. If the blocked FG did not happen Moore would have been the goat letting MEATCHICKEN score in 30 sec's xtwocentsx

I'm glad it worked out the way it did though xthumbsupx

Lynch is the man xbowx

[letsgopards04]

I listened to postgame interview on Sirius with coach and he said that he did not want to rush anything with the special teams. He knew that the kick would be extremely stressful and wanted everyone relaxed without being rushed. He also said that all week they practiced blocking kicks which won them the game (they had 2) and that watching film they saw that Michigan always left the middle of the field wide open.

[james_lawfirm]

If you saw during the App St.'s final timeout, the coaches were arguing back and forth with each other. My opinion is that they were arguing with what to do on 1st down, no timeouts, and 30 seconds left to go in the game.

It appeared to me that Coach Moore wanted to do the logically thing which would be run it to the middle, quick spike on 2nd, and then they have two downs to get the hold right for the go-ahead FG. From the coaches reactions around him, it looks like they talked him into going for it on 1st.

After App made the FG, I said to myself that Manningham is going to beat somebody deep and they are going to kick the game winning FG. At this point I was hoping the Wolverines wouldn't do some uncalled for celebration after winning a game they were "supposed" to win.

But the rest of it ,as we know, is history. Cheers to the fans, players, community, and coaches of App State, and for the rest of us FCS fans as well.

I was at the game, and I thought at the time that they had to kick the FG on first down b/c they were out of time outs. How many times has something funky happened where the team was just trying to "run out the clock"? I think it was the right decision.

We saw the replay on the Big 10 network last night. It looked to me like Coach Elliott was the one who wanted to run one more play before kicking the field goal. Coach Moore overruled him, VERY calmly. Coach Elliott got rather worked up about it. They have worked with each other MANY years and I am sure they have developed quite an understanding and rapport with each other. I am sure it was Coach Moore's decision in the end.

[Jerbearasu]

The officiating was on the poor side. Others around me agreed with that assessment. The running into the punter call was terrible. ASU recovered a fumble on a kickoff that was reviewed and overturned when the evidence for overturning wasn't conclusive. There was a clip right in front of the officials at the point of attack on a punt return that was not flagged and helped set up a Michigan TD when the Wolverines got a long return. ASU was flagged for a face mask penalty on the same play. There was also Michigan holding on that play. There were several incidents where Michigan players commited personal fouls, grabbing face masks, etc., that were overlooked. It wasn't as bad as I've seen in FCS-FBS games, but it wasn't good.
I thought the running into the punter call was pretty good... Corey did dive and he hit the punter without touching the ball. If they had called roughing the kicker, that would have sent me in a rage but running into the kicker was correct. Looking at the replays of the fumble, his elbow hit the ground with him in control. I thought that was pretty clear, my dad still debates that with me so I guess it isn't crystle clear. I don't know about the clip or the holding penalties you saw but I will say there were a few times Michigan grabbed face masks and there wasn't a call though. I really thought it was pretty well officiated. Only bad call I saw helped App out and that was the late hit call on the punt return which I thought was chincy.

[bulldog10jw]

And was that not the ugliest field goal in history? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx


NO!

[jonmac]

The late hit/unsportsmanlike conduct/unnecessary roughness call was a good call. The replay clearly showed that well after the play and clearly out of bounds came an unnecessary shove. May not have been visible to those of you fortunate enough to have been in the Big House.

[SoCon48]

Kicking on first down with that much time left? Almost cost them the greatest scalp in FCS/1-AA history. I'm sure he was scared of making a mistake like a fumble or something but WTF. Worried the time would run out if the QB ran to the middle of field quick then had to spike since the refs could have taken some time? Considering Mich only needed a FG to win after that I don't get it. And for the record we were thinking this as it happened, not just because Michigan hit the low percentage hail mary type pass to set up the game winner.

Very glad it all worked out.

I've seen dozens of games in which the coach chose to kick a FG on 1st or 2nd down. He would have been a idiot to have run another down or two. Especially as a shot gun team. A center over the QB's head or a take away by a tackler would have blown the shot at the upset.

[SoCon48]

These were my thoughts exactly. In the end it all worked out and gave us a more fantastic finish (whew!)

Smart of jerry not to take a chance on making a bad snap with a second string center in a big game and amplifying that by running the clock down to a minimum number of seconds putting extra pressure on the kicker. The chances of Michigan moving the ball downfield and scoring was about the same as App not making a miscue running a couple extra plays.

[AshevilleApp]

I completely agree. I've mentioned before that we did not play well for most of the 2nd half. In my biased opinion, we also had a lot of bad calls go against us. Roughing the kicker? That was a joke. And there was a lot of blatant holding and face-mask grabbing going on by Michigan that the refs conveniently ignored.

If you watch the film the Michigan WR should have been called for the blatant offensive pass interference on the lang catch. There was a serious push off to get to the ball.

Coach said that he was worried about a bad snap since they run the offense out of the shot-gun and he trusted his defense to hold them.