C-USA Hunting for FCS Schools, Who's Most likely to Jump?

[UTGrizFan1]

Hey guys haven't really seen at thread focusing on this so I figured why not. With all the recent realignment shenanigans and C-USA on life support it's already been mentioned that they are taking calls from multiple FCS schools. Now based on what I've been able to find out through reported tweets and scouring other forums:

-SHSU and Tarleton State have been mentioned as possible expansion candidates via tweets from reporters.
-Missouri State has been mentioned extensively on their forums with rumors circulating that they have already turned them down.
-MVC, ASUN, Southland, some CAA and WAC schools mentioned for expansion candidates.

Now taking this information with a grain of salt I'm just curious if you guys feel there any teams that are going to actually make the move or who would be in the best position in order to do so?

[walliver]

I suspect CUSA will go the way of the old WAC, and get out of FBS football. On the other hand, they could just merge with the current WAC and transition their teams to FBS.

With the NCAA in disarray, and the possibility of an expanded FBS playoff ( which would greatly diminish the existing bowl structure), I’m not sure if there is any real benefit to moving to FBS unless you get invited to an attractive conference.

[taper]

I think this round of realignment is basically over, with CUSA being the big loser. All realistic FCS candidates just joined either the WAC or ASUN and are unlikely to immediately jump to a failing conference. There's not even been rumblings of a group of midwestern teams becoming CUSA-North, as cool as that would be. We need to separate the tiers of fan speculation, media rumors, and official announcements.

It's been mentioned in other threads, but FBS conference requirements are different than FCS. You need 8 all sport members, football affiliates don't count. CUSA has 5 now, with extremely limited options.

[HootyHoo]

I think this round of realignment is basically over, with CUSA being the big loser. All realistic FCS candidates just joined either the WAC or ASUN and are unlikely to immediately jump to a failing conference. There's not even been rumblings of a group of midwestern teams becoming CUSA-North, as cool as that would be. We need to separate the tiers of fan speculation, media rumors, and official announcements.

It's been mentioned in other threads, but FBS conference requirements are different than FCS. You need 8 all sport members, football affiliates don't count. CUSA has 5 now, with extremely limited options.

I agree, there is no benefit for an FCS team jumping onto the sinking ship that is C-USA. The next wave of realignment will come after the CFB playoff expansion and revenue issues are settled. The WAC/ASUN will replace C-USA in the FBS in the next 5-10 years.

[Reign of Terrier]

The only motive for an FCS team to go to C-USA is if they want to bite the bullet and get up to FBS now (i.e what JMU probably feels like it should have done in 2013). That's the only argument in favor.

There are lots more against.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

I remember back in 2003 when ETSU's "leadership team" once reached out to C-USA, only to be told hell no. For ETSU to make such a move now, Greene Stadium would have to be expanded to 30k or better. Freedom Hall is a super nice facility for basketball and if they can do something about Memorial Center that would turn that place into a basketball venue on a par with Freedom, that would be an added bonus. I can't speak for ETSU's leadership team but I hope they have strongly looked at this.

[EKU05]

Why would you need to expand the football stadium that large? There are a ton of FBS teams with capacities under 30,000.

[Daytripper]

Why would you need to expand the football stadium that large? There are a ton of FBS teams with capacities under 30,000.

Exactly. I don't think stadium size is near as important as it used to be. Digital broadcast quality and game-day experience are much more important to conferences. Actual game attendance is down across the board for years with a few exceptions.

[Cocky]

Exactly. I don't think stadium size is near as important as it used to be. Digital broadcast quality and game-day experience are much more important to conferences. Actual game attendance is down across the board for years with a few exceptions.


AAC made some odd picks if gameday matters.

[Reign of Terrier]

to be fair, ETSU's stadium is probably the kind that can be expanded to a crazy high number most practically.

[Mocs123]

I could see KSU jumping. Big School and good media market.

JSU could be a possibility. Strong program (excluding 2021), great fan support, Troy envy.

[Bearkat04]

I agree that this round of expansion is basically over. CUSA might add nmsu Liberty and maybe someone else to get to 8 but as far as a major expansion, it starts at the top. The next candidates to move up to P5 are Boise Memphis and San Diego st. Once their moves free up spots in the AAC and MW you’ll see another shakeup. As far as my team (SHSU) I have a hunch we stay in the WAC and the WAC will be expanded in the near future with a full conference jump to FBS in 5 years or so.

[blackbeard]

Stick a fork in CUSA, its done. Absolutely nothing to be gained by any FCS schools choosing this route.

[JSUSoutherner]

I could see KSU jumping. Big School and good media market.

JSU could be a possibility. Strong program (excluding 2021), great fan support, Troy envy.

If JSU moves to CUSA it will kill any chance the program has to be relevant ever again.

[walliver]

With the NCAA re-inventing itself later this year, moving to C-USA makes little sense. Moving to the Sun Belt or MAC has the advantage of a stable conference. With P5 players at times making a million dollars or more with NIL money, the college football landscape will look much different than it does now. Few G5 teams can compete going forward. It would not surprise me at all if 5 years from now, the WAC and ASUN are better conferences than C-USA.

[Libertine]

With the NCAA re-inventing itself later this year, moving to C-USA makes little sense. Moving to the Sun Belt or MAC has the advantage of a stable conference. With P5 players at times making a million dollars or more with NIL money, the college football landscape will look much different than it does now. Few G5 teams can compete going forward. It would not surprise me at all if 5 years from now, the WAC and ASUN are better conferences than C-USA.

I think you could make a legit argument that, assuming the additions/subtractions are complete, the WAC and ASUN are better conferences than C-USA today. The problem I see is that stability is not guaranteed for any conference, Sun Belt or MAC included. Bear in mind that the Big XII was on life support just two months ago when it was down to eight teams, then it was the AAC who were scrambling and getting turned down by Boise, Colorado St. et al.,; for the moment, it's now C-USA's turn to twist in the wind. Five years ago, C-USA was a significantly more prestigious conference than the Sun Belt and the WAC didn't exist as a football conference.

I guess my larger point is that conference stability is not really a thing that exists in college athletics. Certainly not now and possibly, not ever. I'm old enough to remember the Metro Conference (which, at one point, had South Carolina, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis and a pre-dominance Florida State in it) and I've read enough history to know that the vast majority of the current ACC and SEC were once part of the SoCon. Schools will always make moves that benefit themselves the most and as often as they need to.

[walliver]

I remember South Carolina having a hissy fit and leaving the ACC for the Metro Conference. The Metro conference eventually became C-USA.

[Libertine]

Latest word from Brett McMurphy (https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1455204312691453955?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1455204312691453955%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffootballscoop.com%2Fnews%2Fr eport-mac-death-blow-conferece-usa-middle-tennessee-western-kentucky) is that the MAC is ready to poach MTSU and WKU from C-USA. Why the Rust Belt MAC would want to move into the mid-South region is a bit of a mystery to me but, if true, this leaves C-USA with La Tech, FIU and UTEP. That's not even the beginnings of a football conference.

Who wants to bet C-USA raids the non-football schools of the Horizon/Summit/American/Southland and pivots to being a basketball/Olympics conference?

[walliver]

Latest word from Brett McMurphy (https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1455204312691453955?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1455204312691453955%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffootballscoop.com%2Fnews%2Fr eport-mac-death-blow-conferece-usa-middle-tennessee-western-kentucky) is that the MAC is ready to poach MTSU and WKU from C-USA. Why the Rust Belt MAC would want to move into the mid-South region is a bit of a mystery to me but, if true, this leaves C-USA with La Tech, FIU and UTEP. That's not even the beginnings of a football conference.

Who wants to bet C-USA raids the non-football schools of the Horizon/Summit/American/Southland and pivots to being a basketball/Olympics conference?

FIU should join the A-Sun and play football as an independent (or move back to FCS). UTEP should join the WAC. Louisiana Tech has unfortunately burned bridges with the Belch and really has nowhere to go. There would be enough independent FBS teams at that point to set up a scheduling alliance.

The problem with C-USA as a non-football conference is that non-football conferences tend to be geographically compact. A geographically diverse mid-major conference makes little sense for anybody.

[taper]

Saw a post on a CUSA forum that they should go scorched earth on the NCAA and invite the FCS. ALL the FCS. There's no rule on the max teams in one conf. Make Conference USA not just a name.

[Daytripper]

Saw a post on a CUSA forum that they should go scorched earth on the NCAA and invite the FCS. ALL the FCS. There's no rule on the max teams in one conf. Make Conference USA not just a name.

That's pretty funny. Would love to see the reaction of the NCAA honchos if they tried.

[blackbeard]

The Big XII is still on life support. Despite their raiding the AAC they are miles behind the SEC, B10, PAC12 and ACC (in that order).

[clenz]

The Big XII is still on life support. Despite their raiding the AAC they are miles behind the SEC, B10, PAC12 and ACC (in that order).
That's not life support

The B12 fully saved themselves from being completely killed off. Are they the lowest of the P5? Potentially - though the ACC isn't all that impressive overall.

Life support is CUSA, OVC, SLC, and soon to be some combination of the Big South, MEAC, CAA depending how that shakes out.

[HootyHoo]

I could see KSU jumping. Big School and good media market.

JSU could be a possibility. Strong program (excluding 2021), great fan support, Troy envy.

KSU have always had their eyes on the FBS. However, taking the temp of the administration, it doesn't sound like they are in a hurry to make the jump. The ASUN offers intriguing possibilities as it has declared its intentions to explore making the jump as a conference along with the WAC. Which seems to offer stability and a plethora of scheduling options. I've always though that the timetable for going FBS was around 2030.

[walliver]

At this point, there seem to be multiple levels of Division 1 football :
1) The SEC and B1G
2) The ACC, PAC-12, B12, and Notre Dame
3) The current AAC
4) The new AAC, Sun Belt, MWC
5) MVFC and Big Sky
6) Potentially the new WAC and ASun
7) MAC and FBS independents
8) The rest of FCS
9) Pioneer

Somehow this will sort itself out, but it may be an unsettling decade. The NCAA is in trouble and trying to somehow reinvent itself. Name-Image-Likeness has no national rules and different laws in different states and the NCAA cannot regulate it.

[katss07]

Reports coming in that MAC ADs are universally in agreement about adding WKU and MTSU. Sounds like it’s all formalities at this point. Can stick a fork in CUSA.

[aceinthehole]

Reports coming in that MAC ADs are universally in agreement about adding WKU and MTSU. Sounds like it’s all formalities at this point. Can stick a fork in CUSA.

I think that is pretty good move for the MAC as a whole. Doesn't expand the footprint much, adds 2 schools that have had bowl success, and strengthens basketball. The MAC needs to squeeze some more $$$ from their TV deal, but overall not a bad decision. At least there is some apparent logic to it.

UConn and UMass as FB-only affiliates was never going to help the FBS conference requirements anyway. UTEP, La Tech, and FIU can offer NMSU and Liberty, but that only gets them to 5. They would need 3 FCS teams, right? Seems like it is possible, but unlikely at this point, but it all hinges on current FCS programs willing to take the risk of joining.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I think that is pretty good move for the MAC as a whole. Doesn't expand the footprint much, adds 2 schools that have had bowl success, and strengthens basketball. The MAC needs to squeeze some more $$$ from their TV deal, but overall not a bad decision. At least there is some apparent logic to it.

UConn and UMass as FB-only affiliates was never going to help the FBS conference requirements anyway. UTEP, La Tech, and FIU can offer NMSU and Liberty, but that only gets them to 5. They would need 3 FCS teams, right? Seems like it is possible, but unlikely at this point, but it all hinges on current FCS programs willing to take the risk of joining.

Sounds like CUSA is essentially in the same spot the old WAC was in when they invited Montana and Montana State at the eleventh hour. You can put a fork in it unless they can cobble together a half dozen schools to make the jump to a God awful conference. Even more complicated by the fact that the entire new WAC may be under the impression that they could move up on their own in a few years.

FIU will probably be able to finagle their way into the Sun Belt and leverage their home state soil.

[JacksFan40]

The Big XII is still on life support. Despite their raiding the AAC they are miles behind the SEC, B10, PAC12 and ACC (in that order).
They just added four strong programs. Cincinnati might make the playoffs, Houston could get to 10 wins, BYU is Notre Dame of the West with a consistently good product and a big fan base, and UCF has been a premier G5 program for years. I’d say in terms of football quality the Big XII is on par with the ACC and PAC-12.

[Professor Chaos]

The Big XII is still on life support. Despite their raiding the AAC they are miles behind the SEC, B10, PAC12 and ACC (in that order).
Idk... athletically at least I feel like the Big XII is better in the money sports than the Pac-12.

[ST_Lawson]

FIU should join the A-Sun and play football as an independent (or move back to FCS). UTEP should join the WAC. Louisiana Tech has unfortunately burned bridges with the Belch and really has nowhere to go. There would be enough independent FBS teams at that point to set up a scheduling alliance.

That was my thought too. For non-football sports:
FIU joins the ASun
UTEP joins the WAC
LA Tech joins the Southland

Then FIU, UTEP, and LA Tech all go independent for football, join up with Army, Liberty, NM State, UConn, and UMass for a football-only scheduling alliance. That gives each team 7 games, then they can schedule 5 games on their own...maybe a $ game or two against P5 teams, an FCS matchup for a home "win" (assumed win...obviously we all know that it doesn't always play out that way), maybe a H&H or two with other friendly G5s.

[katss07]

Sam Houston and Jacksonville State likely to join CUSA…

Hate this ****. ****ing hate it. Hope it blows up in our faces or something falls through. Pathetic.

per McMurphy btw. As credible as it gets.

[Libertine]

Then FIU, UTEP, and LA Tech all go independent for football, join up with Army, Liberty, NM State, UConn, and UMass for a football-only scheduling alliance. That gives each team 7 games, then they can schedule 5 games on their own...maybe a $ game or two against P5 teams, an FCS matchup for a home "win" (assumed win...obviously we all know that it doesn't always play out that way), maybe a H&H or two with other friendly G5s.

On the surface, that seems practical but it would be a dramatic downgrade in scheduling quality and flexibility for every team not named New Mexico State or UTEP. Army, Liberty, UConn and UMass don't need such an alliance to fill out schedules and neither will FIU or La Tech. Playing "Independent Round Robin" over the course of 3-4 years would be far more palatable but tying up seven games a year with teams that have no common factors other than they aren't in a conference is a recipe for program entropy.

[Libertine]

Sam Houston and Jacksonville State likely to join CUSA…

Hate this ****. ****ing hate it. Hope it blows up in our faces or something falls through. Pathetic.

per McMurphy btw. As credible as it gets.

McMurphy also lumping in Liberty and NMSU with the above. All four schools would be all-sports members. I also hate this. I hate this so much.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I have nothing against any of the other schools in C-USA or mentioned in connection with it BUT it makes 00.00 sense for Liberty to be flying baseball and soccer teams from Virginia to New Mexico when the A-Sun has been nothing but good to us and will likely still be a better basketball/baseball conference than this iteration of C-USA.

[Professor Chaos]

How about that John Grass huh??? His meticulous dedication to excellence has steered Jacksonville St into the FBS!


In all seriousness though this would be another big kick in the nuts to the FCS as a whole and this would only put CUSA up to 7 all-sports members assuming they lose WKU and MTSU to the MAC so they're likely not done yet.

[Reign of Terrier]

I wonder if those phones are ringing in Fargo yet. I know it's expensive or whatever, but it's got to be tempting to see these other peer programs jumping up.

[Professor Chaos]

I wonder if those phones are ringing in Fargo yet. I know it's expensive or whatever, but it's got to be tempting to see these other peer programs jumping up.
Ha! The natives are restless that's for sure... reading Bisonville you'd think NDSU AD Matt Larsen pees in several of their cheerios daily because he's not live-tweeting what NDSU specific reactions are to everything that's happening.

If SHSU and JSU leave it sucks for the FCS but doesn't really change NDSU's situation. If CUSA can get to 8-10 all sports members and NDSU can get a football only invite it could work but does CUSA even want that? I definitely don't think it's beneficial for CUSA or NDSU to look at an all-sports membership without several regional partners willing to do the same and are schools like SDSU, Montana, Montana St, etc willing to risk it as well? As much as many of our fans hate it I still don't see a clear path to the FBS for NDSU.

[Reign of Terrier]

I think this move will invoke a strong "why not us" reaction among many big FCS schools (both in size and competitive footprint).

People forget: Montana turned down the WAC years ago. I imagine they and other schools are at least tempted to think about "what could be"

When you think about the Big Sky already flies all over the place for their games and SHSU and JSU can easily find some solid OOC games. I think a lot could happen, especially since C-USA needs more teams...

[Professor Chaos]

I think this move will invoke a strong "why not us" reaction among many big FCS schools (both in size and competitive footprint).

People forget: Montana turned down the WAC years ago. I imagine they and other schools are at least tempted to think about "what could be"

When you think about the Big Sky already flies all over the place for their games and SHSU and JSU can easily find some solid OOC games. I think a lot could happen, especially since C-USA needs more teams...
No doubt. Looking at athletic revenue figures for JSU and SHSU at https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances I'd say the financial bar for an FBS athletic department is getting lowered as we speak.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I think NDSU needs to jump ship. JMHO. Effectively the FBS has 2 subdivisions: The P4 with the Big 12 being at the very bottom and the G5. The G5 has a national championship that exists in the form of the bid to the NY6 bowl. There aren't any ideal geographic circumstances in the FBS so there's no point in waiting for that.

And don't kid yourselves about some P5 separation. That's been just around the corner at least the last 2 decades. It's not happening and even if it did you're behind the curve staying in the FCS.

[Reign of Terrier]

I think you can find an updated version of what each school spends on department of education gender equality in athletics site (seriously). I can't be bothered to find it though.

[JSUSoutherner]

I think I'm going to throw up.

We left Kennesaw and UNA for ****ing UTEP and FIU.

I'm so ****ing mad right now.

[Reign of Terrier]

Socon playing the long game by returning to the south's premier FCS conference by virtue of attrition lol

[katss07]

I think NDSU needs to jump ship. JMHO. Effectively the FBS has 2 subdivisions: The P4 with the Big 12 being at the very bottom and the G5. The G5 has a national championship that exists in the form of the bid to the NY6 bowl. There aren't any ideal geographic circumstances in the FBS so there's no point in waiting for that.

And don't kid yourselves about some P5 separation. That's been just around the corner at least the last 2 decades. It's not happening and even if it did you're behind the curve staying in the FCS.
If staying FCS is behind the curve, then right now I really want to be behind the ****ing curve. I don’t give a **** about FBS football.

[JSUSoutherner]

If staying FCS is behind the curve, then right now I really want to be behind the ****ing curve. I don’t give a **** about FBS football.

Congratulations friend, both of our programs just signed up for eternal irrelevance.

[Professor Chaos]

I think NDSU needs to jump ship. JMHO. Effectively the FBS has 2 subdivisions: The P4 with the Big 12 being at the very bottom and the G5. The G5 has a national championship that exists in the form of the bid to the NY6 bowl. There aren't any ideal geographic circumstances in the FBS so there's no point in waiting for that.

And don't kid yourselves about some P5 separation. That's been just around the corner at least the last 2 decades. It's not happening and even if it did you're behind the curve staying in the FCS.
You can't just wish it to be and go FBS though.... unless you want to go independent. If NDSU can parlay a football only invite to an FBS conference I'd say go for it. If not, staying FCS is still preferable to going FBS independent or jumping all-sports into a conference with no other schools within 1000 miles like CUSA's current footprint (as if a conference like CUSA would even want to do that in the first place). xtwocentsx

[Reign of Terrier]

I dunno, at this point moving up may not be about money or travel or winning, but sheer pride. Don't underestimate it!

[POD Knows]

You can't just wish it to be and go FBS though.... unless you want to go independent. If NDSU can parlay a football only invite to an FBS conference I'd say go for it. If not, staying FCS is still preferable to going FBS independent or jumping all-sports into a conference with no other schools within 1000 miles like CUSA's current footprint (as if a conference like CUSA would even want to do that in the first place). xtwocentsx
Beyond stupid to move there for all sports. The other FB members of the summit would need to go as well to even make this plausible. It ain’t going to happen.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

You can't just wish it to be and go FBS though.... unless you want to go independent. If NDSU can parlay a football only invite to an FBS conference I'd say go for it. If not, staying FCS is still preferable to going FBS independent or jumping all-sports into a conference with no other schools within 1000 miles like CUSA's current footprint (as if a conference like CUSA would even want to do that in the first place). xtwocentsx


I think CUSA would definitely listen to NDSU if they asked for football-only membership. You would bring value to the TV contract which is what is really driving realignment at both the P5 and G5 levels.

And TBH, a CUSA with NDSU, Liberty, La Tech, SHSU, and Jax State could actually be an upgrade over the current Conference USA crap heap.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If Sam Houston and Jax State are indeed going, it could start to get weird. I could see CUSA reaching out to the Dakota/Montana schools + Idaho as a group and creating a Mountain West Division. Imagine this:

1) UTEP
2) NMSU
3) Idaho
4) Montana
5) Montana State
6) SDSU
7) NDSU

1) La Tech
2) SHSU
3) Jax State
4) Liberty
5) FIU
6) Jackson State
7) North Carolina A&T

[Professor Chaos]

I dunno, at this point moving up may not be about money or travel or winning, but sheer pride. Don't underestimate it!
Yup, I think that vanity is almost exclusively driving the opinions of many of my fellow Bison fans who are in "jump at any and all costs right now" mode. I can only hope NDSU's athletic leadership doesn't fall into the same trap.

It doesn't help that NDSU waited far too long to exit D2 and many of our fans will never ever forget how incredibly overdue that was.

[Reign of Terrier]

If Sam Houston and Jax State are indeed going, it could start to get weird. I could see CUSA reaching out to the Dakota/Montana schools + Idaho as a group and creating a Mountain West Division. Imagine this:

1) UTEP
2) NMSU
3) Idaho
4) Montana
5) Montana State
6) SDSU
7) NDSU

1) La Tech
2) SHSU
3) Jax State
4) Liberty
5) FIU
6) Jackson State
7) North Carolina A&T

I wouldn't say it's likely, but I think the probability of the Montana's and Dakotas moving up got marginally higher


Yup, I think that vanity is almost exclusively driving the opinions of many of my fellow Bison fans who are in "jump at any and all costs right now" mode. I can only hope NDSU's athletic leadership doesn't fall into the same trap.

Take a page out of Coastal's book: make a leap of faith! They're doing a lot better than they could have ever projected.

[JSUSoutherner]

I wouldn't say it's likely, but I think the probability of the Montana's and Dakotas moving up got marginally higher



Take a page out of Coastal's book: make a leap of faith! They're doing a lot better than they could have ever projected.
They also have Chadwell and a CWS title boosting their university cred for recruiting.

JSU stands no chance in the FBS. Im not convinced SHSU does either.

[Professor Chaos]

I think CUSA would definitely listen to NDSU if they asked for football-only membership. You would bring value to the TV contract which is what is really driving realignment at both the P5 and G5 levels.

And TBH, a CUSA with NDSU, Liberty, La Tech, SHSU, and Jax State could actually be an upgrade over the current Conference USA crap heap.
I hope you're right. I have no idea but I'd have to think that NDSU's athletic department has been in contact with CUSA to gauge the possibilities around a football only membership or even something more elaborate like NY Crusader suggested.

[HootyHoo]

Hooty will be furious if Jacksonville State goes up and KSU doesn’t. Cusa needs the Atlanta market. Money is no issue, Liberty is bank rolling the conference. Do it!

[Professor Chaos]

Take a page out of Coastal's book: make a leap of faith! They're doing a lot better than they could have ever projected.
In football I absolutely agree. Travel isn't as big of a deal since NDSU already flies to most away games in the FCS. But when taking that leap of faith involves the distinct possibility of torpedoing every other sport in your athletic department by putting them on a geographic island it becomes a lot less appealing.

[HootyHoo]

I hope you're right. I have no idea but I'd have to think that NDSU's athletic department has been in contact with CUSA to gauge the possibilities around a football only membership or even something more elaborate like NY Crusader suggested.

Are the Bison and Owls about to join forces to dominate the FBS? This is like the Avengers.

[Reign of Terrier]

They also have Chadwell and a CWS title boosting their university cred for recruiting.

JSU stands no chance in the FBS. Im not convinced SHSU does either.

To be fair: they did not have Chadwell when they moved up. In terms of filling seats and stuff, they were absolutely abysmal. They expanded the stadium and you can probably find posts on here back then about how they'll never fill it, how it was a fool's errand, etc. Now they pack it out and I think it's gone well.

Both JSU and SHSU are worlds ahead of where Coastal was and they can easily schedule bus drive OOC games with quality opponents. They will be fine.

As for NDSU and others, the elaborate solutions are probably on the table, because CUSA is going to want some sustainably with their next configuration.

- - - Updated - - -


Are the Bison and Owls about to join forces to dominate the FBS? This is like the Avengers.
I am completely serious when I say never, ever change.

[Bearkat04]

If this plays out like was reported conference USA certainly wouldn’t be done adding. I would start with eastern Kentucky and Missouri st. Yes I know they reportedly turned them down but so had liberty. That might be enough to bridge the north and then ndsu sdsu uni and the line wouldn’t be a major outliers

[JSUSoutherner]

Hooty will be furious if Jacksonville State goes up and KSU doesn’t. Cusa needs the Atlanta market. Money is no issue, Liberty is bank rolling the conference. Do it!

Honestly if Kennesaw comes up with us it makes this absolute catastrophe a little easier to digest.

[katss07]

To be fair: they did not have Chadwell when they moved up. In terms of filling seats and stuff, they were absolutely abysmal. They expanded the stadium and you can probably find posts on here back then about how they'll never fill it, how it was a fool's errand, etc. Now they pack it out and I think it's gone well.

Both JSU and SHSU are worlds ahead of where Coastal was and they can easily schedule bus drive OOC games with quality opponents. They will be fine.

As for NDSU and others, the elaborate solutions are probably on the table, because CUSA is going to want some sustainably with their next configuration.

- - - Updated - - -


I am completely serious when I say never, ever change.
“Worlds ahead” yeah it’s clear you haven’t seen a game at Huntsville High School’s football stadium.

[JSUSoutherner]

“Worlds ahead” yeah it’s clear you haven’t seen a game at Huntsville High School’s football stadium.

Yeah your stadium and your ability to fill it is pretty abysmal.

[katss07]

Congratulations friend, both of our programs just signed up for eternal irrelevance.
I’d say at least I get to take a trip to Jacksonville State for a game every other year, but doubt I’ll be able to make a game on a Tuesday night.

[JSUSoutherner]

I’d say at least I get to take a trip to Jacksonville State for a game every other year, but doubt I’ll be able to make a game on a Tuesday night.

Oh God. You're right. We're Tuesdays now. My god what have we done?!

[katss07]

Yeah your stadium and your ability to fill it is pretty abysmal.
Praying to god we get 3000 fans for the Dixie game and our AD realizes this is stupid.

[JSUSoutherner]

Praying to god we get 3000 fans for the Dixie game and our AD realizes this is stupid.

Will Sam be the first FBS program with a track around their field????

[dewey]

Yup, I think that vanity is almost exclusively driving the opinions of many of my fellow Bison fans who are in "jump at any and all costs right now" mode. I can only hope NDSU's athletic leadership doesn't fall into the same trap.

It doesn't help that NDSU waited far too long to exit D2 and many of our fans will never ever forget how incredibly overdue that was.

I hope NDSU doesn't move to FBS. My main complaint against going to the FBS is....What are you trying to win at the end of the year? A National Championship or some crappie bowl game?

To me FBS kills regional rivalry games.
To me FBS kills any chance of adding more National Championship banner.
To me FBS kills the ayoff environment at the Fargodome.
To me FBS doesn't mean NDSU will automatically get games against the Big10, Big12 or MAC.
To me FBS means more road games at locations that are flights only.

I think FBS is a pride issue only and isn't a logical choice for NDSU.

Dewey

[Reign of Terrier]

“Worlds ahead” yeah it’s clear you haven’t seen a game at Huntsville High School’s football stadium.

You are correct but also completely unaware of the train wreck that was coastal

[Professor Chaos]

Will Sam be the first FBS program with a track around their field????
Nope.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/08/b6/18/08b6188026648247a08b2584f09a2f6e.png

[POD Knows]

Oh God. You're right. We're Tuesdays now. My god what have we done?!
Wait a minute. I am a late arrival on this and do no follow the CUSA. Those ****ers play football on a Tuesday, freaking Tuesday, Tuesday. If so. I am out. **** that noise. That is 9 season tickets gone right there.

[smilo]

You guys are already going to be in the top half of an FBS conference with a bowl game most years. NGL, it's a big negative for basketball and losing a rival or two, but I am quite jealous. I'd rather be with UConn and UMass in FBS than this rump of a long gone conference.

[JSUSoutherner]

Nope.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/08/b6/18/08b6188026648247a08b2584f09a2f6e.png
Man I never figured I'd find myself longing for my school to be privileged enough to join the SunBelt but here I am...

[Reign of Terrier]

To be fair, the track at App is gone now. I think they average 25k a game. I hear it's the most fun atmosphere in NC. Granted, that's not saying much, but still.

[HootyHoo]

I hope NDSU doesn't move to FBS. My main complaint against going to the FBS is....What are you trying to win at the end of the year? A National Championship or some crappie bowl game?

To me FBS kills regional rivalry games.
To me FBS kills any chance of adding more National Championship banner.
To me FBS kills the ayoff environment at the Fargodome.
To me FBS doesn't mean NDSU will automatically get games against the Big10, Big12 or MAC.
To me FBS means more road games at locations that are flights only.

I think FBS is a pride issue only and isn't a logical choice for NDSU.

Dewey

The playoff expansion changes things. 12 can easily become 16. And then the Bison would be playing with the big boys making stacks of cash. That’s why you go. C-USA will let you bring a few of your valley buddies along. Northern Iowa, Missouri State, South Dakota St and the Bison. That creates a 8 team west division with La Tech, UTEP, New Mexico St, and Sam Houston.
Then the East division would be Jacksonville St, FIU, WKU, MTSU, Liberty, KSU, Eastern Kentucky, and Central Arkansas.
Who says no?

[dewey]

Wait a minute. I am a late arrival on this and do no follow the CUSA. Those ****ers play football on a Tuesday, freaking Tuesday, Tuesday. If so. I am out. **** that noise. That is 9 season tickets gone right there.

Agreed. NDSU can have my 6 season tickets back to you. It is hard enough for me to make it to a Saturday game. Freaking Tuesday or Wednesday games? F that.

Dewey

[dewey]

The playoff expansion changes things. 12 can easily become 16. And then the Bison would be playing with the big boys making stacks of cash. That’s why you go. C-USA will let you bring a few of your valley buddies along. Northern Iowa, Missouri State, South Dakota St and the Bison. That creates a 8 team west division with La Tech, UTEP, New Mexico St, and Sam Houston.
Then the East division would be Jacksonville St, FIU, WKU, MTSU, Liberty, KSU, Eastern Kentucky, and Central Arkansas.
Who says no?

Well yes the guarantee game prices go up but so does the travel to all of these farther away locations.

Not to mention the Title 9 restrictions.

Either NDSU has to cut 22 men's scholarships or add women sports (and coaches, travel costs, etc).

I can't see how this is a financial benefit to NDSU.

Dewey

[JSUSoutherner]

The playoff expansion changes things. 12 can easily become 16. And then the Bison would be playing with the big boys making stacks of cash. That’s why you go. C-USA will let you bring a few of your valley buddies along. Northern Iowa, Missouri State, South Dakota St and the Bison. That creates a 8 team west division with La Tech, UTEP, New Mexico St, and Sam Houston.
Then the East division would be Jacksonville St, FIU, WKU, MTSU, Liberty, KSU, Eastern Kentucky, and Central Arkansas.
Who says no?
WKU and MTSU are gone for the MAC. We will end up with UConn and UMass in football.

[HootyHoo]

Well yes the guarantee game prices go up but so does the travel to all of these farther away locations.

Not to mention the Title 9 restrictions.

Either NDSU has to cut 22 men's scholarships or add women sports (and coaches, travel costs, etc).

I can't see how this is a financial benefit to NDSU.

Dewey

No worries Dewey. Liberty is going to cover travel costs for the conference Indefinitely. Just sit back and let Liberty be your sugar daddy,

[MR. CHICKEN]

Agreed. NDSU can have my 6 season tickets back to you. It is hard enough for me to make it to a Saturday game. Freaking Tuesday or Wednesday games? F that.

Dewey

.....STARTIN' TA-MORRAH NIGHT....DUH MAC FIRES UP DUH WEEK-NITE...SKED......PIGGY MOS' EVERAH NITE LADDIES......xbowx.........NO SIT-COMS FO' ME..............BRAWK!

[MR. CHICKEN]

No worries Dewey. Liberty is going to cover travel costs for the conference Indefinitely. Just sit back and let Liberty be your sugar daddy,

......YER ON IT HOOTY.......LIBERTY.......IS DUH BAPTIST NOTRE DAME......BRAWK!

[Reign of Terrier]

Liberty likes to watch good football.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I hope NDSU doesn't move to FBS. My main complaint against going to the FBS is....What are you trying to win at the end of the year? A National Championship or some crappie bowl game?

To me FBS kills regional rivalry games.
To me FBS kills any chance of adding more National Championship banner.
To me FBS kills the ayoff environment at the Fargodome.
To me FBS doesn't mean NDSU will automatically get games against the Big10, Big12 or MAC.
To me FBS means more road games at locations that are flights only.

I think FBS is a pride issue only and isn't a logical choice for NDSU.

Dewey

Regarding National Championships, 6 of your 9 national championship opponents are headed to FBS. 18 of the last 23 FCS national champions are either NDSU or teams in or headed to FBS. At some point does the playoffs feel watered down and not as fun? I get loving the FCS playoffs and easier road trips but to me that FCS that I really liked just doesn't exist anymore. I hate that we have to play in a subdivision we share with the Alabamas and Ohio States in order to be with peers, but it is what it is.

Pretty much every non-P5 team gets P5 games when they want them, and the paychecks are bigger. And if you want to see an environment you haven't seen in a long time in the Fargo Dome if you've ever seen it, get a P5 team to come to your stadium like many G5 teams get.

[clenz]

Nope.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/08/b6/18/08b6188026648247a08b2584f09a2f6e.png
Track is gone and they're throwing 32k in there for games.

https://appstatesports.com/images/2021/5/25/KBS_Pano.jpg?width=942&quality=80&format=jpg

[taper]

Well yes the guarantee game prices go up but so does the travel to all of these farther away locations.

Not to mention the Title 9 restrictions.

Either NDSU has to cut 22 men's scholarships or add women sports (and coaches, travel costs, etc).

I can't see how this is a financial benefit to NDSU.

Dewey
NDSU is one of the few schools that uses the 3rd prong of Title IX. Compliance comes from Women's success rather than equal scholarships or funding. Obviously Bison football is the biggest, but in out Olympic sports our women are clearly more successful than our men as a whole. We're giving women's sports what they need to succeed so we satisfy Title IX.

[dgtw]

McMurphy also lumping in Liberty and NMSU with the above. All four schools would be all-sports members. I also hate this. I hate this so much.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I have nothing against any of the other schools in C-USA or mentioned in connection with it BUT it makes 00.00 sense for Liberty to be flying baseball and soccer teams from Virginia to New Mexico when the A-Sun has been nothing but good to us and will likely still be a better basketball/baseball conference than this iteration of C-USA.

Same here. I’d rather stay ASUN and see how that works out. A bunch of far flung schools with little in common.

I don’t see much benefit for NMSU. It gets them in a conference but I think they are better off staying indy and hoping the WAC works out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MR. CHICKEN]

....BUT DUH APP STATE......SKOOL BUILDIN'S....LOOK LIKE....OL' TEXTILE MILLS............BAWK!

[JSUSoutherner]

Same here. I’d rather stay ASUN and see how that works out. A bunch of far flung schools with little in common.

I don’t see much benefit for NMSU. It gets them in a conference but I think they are better off staying indy and hoping the WAC works out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stay in the ASUN. Let CUSA die. Pick up who we want to pick up.

[Reign of Terrier]

As a fan of a program that will always make sense to play FCS, and seeing former peer athletic programs have the success they are having, I kind of have to chuckle. Talk to an App State fan: they don't regret moving up one bit.

Obviously this is an FCS site and this comment won't do so well: but there are lots of thing FBS does better than FCS and "aw shucks we like championships" is more of a status quo bias IMO.

[MR. CHICKEN]

NDSU is one of the few schools that uses the 3rd prong of Title IX. Compliance comes from Women's success rather than equal scholarships or funding. Obviously Bison football is the biggest, but in out Olympic sports our women are clearly more successful than our men as a whole. We're giving women's sports what they need to succeed so we satisfy Title IX.


...MIGHT BE TIME...TA TEST DOSE LADIES.........FEMALE....GERMAN SWIMMERS......SMOKED CIGARS/PLAYED POKER....AN' CHASED WOMEN.........BRAWK!

[dewey]

Regarding National Championships, 6 of your 9 national championship opponents are headed to FBS. 18 of the last 23 FCS national champions are either NDSU or teams in or headed to FBS. At some point does the playoffs feel watered down and not as fun? I get loving the FCS playoffs and easier road trips but to me that FCS that I really liked just doesn't exist anymore. I hate that we have to play in a subdivision we share with the Alabamas and Ohio States in order to be with peers, but it is what it is.

Pretty much every non-P5 team gets P5 games when they want them, and the paychecks are bigger. And if you want to see an environment you haven't seen in a long time in the Fargo Dome if you've ever seen it, get a P5 team to come to your stadium like many G5 teams get.

I wonder how long before the P5 schools break away to make their own league. I know it has been talked about for a long time.
Thus sending the G5 and top FCS schools to a really solid 2nd level of schools.

Dewey

[clenz]

NDSU is one of the few schools that uses the 3rd prong of Title IX. Compliance comes from Women's success rather than equal scholarships or funding. Obviously Bison football is the biggest, but in out Olympic sports our women are clearly more successful than our men as a whole. We're giving women's sports what they need to succeed so we satisfy Title IX.
Cool

You're still adding at least a half million dollars to the budget in scholarships. You're adding FCOA for those additional students. Not only that, NDSU is losing money from the kids that were walk-ons that were spots 66-85 so really the university is losing at least a million dollars compared to what it is at right now for Title IX.

You also add another coach to the coaching staff, and coaching salaries likely have to double (minimum) across all 10 coaches.

Average for a G5 assistant coach is more thand double, if not triple what NDSU pays. Triple, minimum, your coaching budget. Head coaches get paid 3 times what Entz gets paid. Entz is at something like 380-400 right now. You'll have to get that to over a million yearly.

You'll have increased travel costs because Brookings, Cedar Falls, Vermillion, Grand Forks, etc. are now replaced with...in CUSA - New Mexico, Florida, Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. and not just for football. Have fun sending womens basketball across the county 11 times per year.


Oh and doing so for a conference that has gone from 14 million dollars in media rights to close to only 1 million dollars for the conference.

Oh and because of how NDSU operates - being forced to do so while charging ZERO extra dollars in any way to the students on campus. You're going to need another 10-15 million per year every year for it to work. Where is that money coming from?

It's why i don't get it for SHSU. I have no idea how the work it financially.

[dewey]

Stay in the ASUN. Let CUSA die. Pick up who we want to pick up.

Agreed. The CUSA is going to be sending out offers to any freaking school they think will take the bait. No rhythm or reason to their choices. All about the CUSA staying alive.

Dewey

[JSUSoutherner]

As a fan of a program that will always make sense to play FCS, and seeing former peer athletic programs have the success they are having, I kind of have to chuckle. Talk to an App State fan: they don't regret moving up one bit.

Obviously this is an FCS site and this comment won't do so well: but there are lots of thing FBS does better than FCS and "aw shucks we like championships" is more of a status quo bias IMO.

Sure. But it's not even just that.

I literally could not give one single flying **** about a single team in this new CUSA. The ASUN has everything I want. Regional games, games on ESPN+. The long term goal of the ASUN, like the WAC, is to move up so I don't understand Sam wanting to jump either.

There is exactly nothing about this move that I am excited for. Not. A. Damn. Thing.

[Chalupa Batman]

As a fan of a program that will always make sense to play FCS, and seeing former peer athletic programs have the success they are having, I kind of have to chuckle. Talk to an App State fan: they don't regret moving up one bit.

Obviously this is an FCS site and this comment won't do so well: but there are lots of thing FBS does better than FCS and "aw shucks we like championships" is more of a status quo bias IMO.

As someone who wasn't here then or pay that close attention to FCS as a whole, what were theirs and GSU's thoughts at the time? Would they have been different if they weren't together and it was only one or the other?

[dewey]

Cool

You're still adding at least a half million dollars to the budget in scholarships. You're adding FCOA for those additional students. Not only that, NDSU is losing money from the kids that were walk-ons that were spots 66-85 so really the university is losing at least a million dollars compared to what it is at right now for Title IX.

You also add another coach to the coaching staff, and coaching salaries likely have to double (minimum) across all 10 coaches.

Average for a G5 assistant coach is more thand double, if not triple what NDSU pays. Triple, minimum, your coaching budget. Head coaches get paid 3 times what Entz gets paid. Entz is at something like 380-400 right now. You'll have to get that to over a million yearly.

You'll have increased travel costs because Brookings, Cedar Falls, Vermillion, Grand Forks, etc. are now replaced with...in CUSA - New Mexico, Florida, Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. and not just for football. Have fun sending womens basketball across the county 11 times per year.


Oh and doing so for a conference that has gone from 14 million dollars in media rights to close to only 1 million dollars for the conference.

Oh and because of how NDSU operates - being forced to do so while charging ZERO extra dollars in any way to the students on campus. You're going to need another 10-15 million per year every year for it to work. Where is that money coming from?

It's why i don't get it for SHSU. I have no idea how the work it financially.

You are dead on right about the extra costs of moving to FBS. I think to many people see the shiny new object but not the details and costs behind it.

Plus what are you really playing for? A crappy CUSA Championship trophy?

Dewey

[JSUSoutherner]

It's why i don't get it for SHSU. I have no idea how the work it financially.
And you think we can?

No chance.

[katss07]

As a fan of a program that will always make sense to play FCS, and seeing former peer athletic programs have the success they are having, I kind of have to chuckle. Talk to an App State fan: they don't regret moving up one bit.

Obviously this is an FCS site and this comment won't do so well: but there are lots of thing FBS does better than FCS and "aw shucks we like championships" is more of a status quo bias IMO.
It’d be one thing if the Mountain West came calling. It’d be one thing if we were going to play Boise State and Nevada. It’d be one thing if we could pull more than 8,000 fans. It’d be one thing if Sam had a nice stadium, a supportive fanbase and some sense of forward thinking up top. It’d be one thing if the Sun Belt came knocking. It’d be one thing if we were going to play App State and ULL.

We’re going to play “Florida International”. In a dying conference.

We’re not that different than Wofford, belong in the FCS. Comparing SHSU’s Athletic Dept. to Appalachian State is laughable. Sorry, I’d immediately lose interest if SHSU moves up.

[POD Knows]

And you think we can?

No chance.
According to Clenz, they will need to raise Grass’s salary to a million a year or maybe as a means to cut costs, JSU will just keep him. Can’t hire a new guy without the big bucks.

[taper]

You are dead on right about the extra costs of moving to FBS. I think to many people see the shiny new object but not the details and costs behind it.

Plus what are you really playing for? A crappy CUSA Championship trophy?

Dewey

Don't get me wrong, I'm against FBS just to be FBS. Going without regional partners is a horrible mistake. I think there's a way to be successful but there's been no hint of interest from the regional ADs of it. Therefore NDSU's best option at this time is to stay put.

[clenz]

You are dead on right about the extra costs of moving to FBS. I think to many people see the shiny new object but not the details and costs behind it.

Plus what are you really playing for? A crappy CUSA Championship trophy?

Dewey
The other reason you shouldn't really compare NDSU to GSU or App State is location

App State and GSU are a stones throw from about 200 football teams in the most football crazy area in the country with the southeast.

North Dakota State is 4 hours from it's closest real city and beyond that you are 8-10 hours from any other actual cities. They are in a state with less people than the ****ing Omaha metro area.

If NDSU was in Texas, Missouri, Arkansas, a Carolina, Georgia, hell even a number of states in the Mid-Atlantic they had a home long ago. They aren't there - and if they were there they don't exist at half the capacity they do right now because they are no longer literally the only show for 300 miles.

[clenz]

According to Clenz, they will need to raise Grass’s salary to a million a year or maybe as a means to cut costs, JSU will just keep him. Can’t hire a new guy without the big bucks.
If you want to hire a coach for 750k or less at the FBS level, feel free.

I have the feeling the level of coach you're going to get for that budget at the FBS level isn't going to meet the baseline level of acceptable for the NDSU fan base.

[dewey]

It’d be one thing if the Mountain West came calling. It’d be one thing if we were going to play Boise State and Nevada. It’d be one thing if we could pull more than 8,000 fans. It’d be one thing if Sam had a nice stadium, a supportive fanbase and some sense of forward thinking up top. It’d be one thing if the Sun Belt came knocking. It’d be one thing if we were going to play App State and ULL.

We’re going to play “Florida International”. In a dying conference.

We’re not that different than Wofford, belong in the FCS. Comparing SHSU’s Athletic Dept. to Appalachian State is laughable. Sorry, I’d immediately lose interest if SHSU moves up.

This! Lots of this! There is nothing that the CUSA has that is better than what SHSU and NDSU already have.

Chasing the ugliest girl at the bar is not always best idea.

Dewey

[JSUSoutherner]

The other reason you shouldn't really compare NDSU to GSU or App State is location

App State and GSU are a stones throw from about 200 football teams in the most football crazy area in the country with the southeast.

North Dakota State is 4 hours from it's closest real city and beyond that you are 8-10 hours from any other actual cities. They are in a state with less people than the ****ing Omaha metro area.

If NDSU was in Texas, Missouri, Arkansas, a Carolina, Georgia, hell even a number of states in the Mid-Atlantic they had a home long ago. They aren't there - and if they were there they don't exist at half the capacity they do right now because they are no longer literally the only show for 300 miles.

TIL Grand Rapids is bigger than Omaha.

[dewey]

If you want to hire a coach for 750k or less at the FBS level, feel free.

I have the feeling the level of coach you're going to get for that budget at the FBS level isn't going to meet the baseline level of acceptable for the NDSU fan base.

It would be kind of fun to throw together a rough spreadsheet of coaching salaries, increasing 22 scholarships and their coaches, travel costs compared to the increase in media rights for C-USA and increased guarantee games.

Dewey

[JSUSoutherner]

It would be kind of fun to throw together a rough spreadsheet of coaching salaries, increasing 22 scholarships and their coaches, travel costs compared to the increase in media rights for C-USA and increased guarantee games.

Dewey
That's the thing. There is no increase in media rights. Their TV deal is ass.

[clenz]

As actual backing to my "budgets have to increase dramatically"

In 2010 App State spent 16.9 million on athletics
In 2013 they spent 21 million
In 2020 they spent 40 million.

App State is at half of the FBS median spending which is nearing 80 million per year.

In 2010 Georgia Southern spent 10 million on athletics
In 2013 they sent 13 million
In 2020 they spent over 30 million

In 2010 Coastal Carolina spent 18 million on athletics
In 2016 they spent 27 million
In 2020 they spent 40 million


So
App increased their budget 135% in a decade and 90% after their move
GSU increased their budget 200% in a decade and 130% after their move
CCU increased their budget 122% in a decade and 50% after their move

That's an average increase of about 152% over the last decade to fund those moves

NDSU is at 28 million now
Does NDSU have another 50-60 million dollars laying around (not total, per year) to match the same commitment?

[Reign of Terrier]

As someone who wasn't here then or pay that close attention to FCS as a whole, what were theirs and GSU's thoughts at the time? Would they have been different if they weren't together and it was only one or the other? I think it would have been different if they didn't go at the same time (indeed, the package deal, the rivalry, was part of their selling point).

They were having many of the same conversations we see here about costs and all that valid stuff. From what I can tell, it's worked out a lot better for App State than Georgia Southern, and that comes all down to winning. If Georgia Southern continued their trajectory of the first couple years, they would be fine. GSU's attendance isn't as good as it should be, but as Clenz already alluded to, App packs the house regularly. The reason why is momentum and competence in their athletic program. App had it for the last 5 years. GSU, not so much (but they did have an abusive relationship with the option)

I think App was trying to move up ever since they three-peated. They were actually quite mediocre by their own standards between 2010-2012 before they moved up. But App has always occupied a strange space in north Carolina athletics because they've simultaneously had the most enthusiastic fans and was yet not top 5 most notable in the state simply because of the subdivision they played in. Now, I think they're on a trajectory to be North Carolina's football school in about 20 years, maybe faster.

I'm biased in that I'm nostalgic for a more competitive time in FCS history (the 2000s were awesome) and so I'm kind of rooting for an Exodus of programs to FBS because I don't think we will get that again without a clean slate.

Having said that, I really think programs like NDSU just need to go and it will work itself. People are talking about costs and not benefits. Like yes, it's going to cost things! But it'll be worth it in my subjective opinion.

If Wofford wasn't a school that had no business even thinking about FBS for multiple reasons I would want them to go up ASAP. NDSU fans may not notice this because they win the championship all the time, but bowl games are pretty fun and can give seasons a hint of success and progress and hope for the next season where there otherwise wouldn't be any. Meanwhile, you can win 9-10 games at the FCS level and end the season with 99% certainty with a bad taste in your mouth.

Championships aren't everything. Most games you watch and most plays you watch have 0 national championship implications. There's something "more" about watching college sports than that. Wofford for instance will probably never win a national championship in basketball, but we have a damn good program now, and I weirdly feel more prideful about it and get more excited about it watching OOC games against high major schools because I know they are more winnable and we can/will get more recognition. That's why I kind of smirk at these conversations, because I've seen former message board posters realize this with their football team.

[dewey]

As actual backing to my "budgets have to increase dramatically"

In 2010 App State spent 16.9 million on athletics
In 2013 they spent 21 million
In 2020 they spent 40 million.

App State is at half of the FBS median spending which is nearing 80 million per year.

In 2010 Georgia Southern spent 10 million on athletics
In 2013 they sent 13 million
In 2020 they spent over 30 million

In 2010 Coastal Carolina spent 18 million on athletics
In 2016 they spent 27 million
In 2020 they spent 40 million


So
App increased their budget 135% in a decade and 90% after their move
GSU increased their budget 200% in a decade and 130% after their move
CCU increased their budget 122% in a decade and 50% after their move

That's an average increase of about 152% over the last decade to fund those moves

NDSU is at 28 million now
Does NDSU have another 50-60 million dollars laying around (not total, per year) to match the same commitment?

Even if NDSU tried to get in line with GSU and APP then where does that 12-20 million come from?

TV rights? Looks like JSU said the CUSA media deal is crap.

I just don't understand the lvlove affair with going FBS.

Dewey

[clenz]

NDSU's growth between 2010 and now is amazing. NDSU fans have made sure everyone knew about it.


In 2010 they were at 15 million


NDSU has seen massive growth, in reality, at a near 90% growth to 28 million


To match an equivalent of a decades worth of commitment like those three did moving up the need to more than double that growth for a decade and then maintain it at the rate of "inflation" of athletics

[clenz]

Even if NDSU tried to get in line with GSU and APP then where does that 12-20 million come from?

TV rights? Looks like JSU said the CUSA media deal is crap.

I just don't understand the lvlove affair with going FBS.

Dewey
It is crap. Their TV deal is Facebook, Stadium TV, and CBS Sports Net with somehwere between 1 and 2 million dollars distributed around the league members

And I'm guessing the new league isn't getting a TV rate increase

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

NDSU already has a low-end G5 budget if the USA Today numbers are to be believed.

IMO, not only would CUSA be okay with NDSU football-only, they'd prefer it. That way NDSU contributes to the media rights value and no one sends non-major sports teams to or from Fargo.

And of course the paydays for P5 games go up, you actually get paid to be on TV and you get money from the CFP pot, and that will only get bigger once the inevitable expansion happens.

[Professor Chaos]

As actual backing to my "budgets have to increase dramatically"

In 2010 App State spent 16.9 million on athletics
In 2013 they spent 21 million
In 2020 they spent 40 million.

App State is at half of the FBS median spending which is nearing 80 million per year.

In 2010 Georgia Southern spent 10 million on athletics
In 2013 they sent 13 million
In 2020 they spent over 30 million

In 2010 Coastal Carolina spent 18 million on athletics
In 2016 they spent 27 million
In 2020 they spent 40 million


So
App increased their budget 135% in a decade and 90% after their move
GSU increased their budget 200% in a decade and 130% after their move
CCU increased their budget 122% in a decade and 50% after their move

That's an average increase of about 152% over the last decade to fund those moves

NDSU is at 28 million now
Does NDSU have another 50-60 million dollars laying around (not total, per year) to match the same commitment?
50-60M more per year is grossly overstated. These are all the same arguments that were when NDSU hung around for far too long in D2. From a competitive standpoint NDSU football would be competitive in any G5 league right now with fewer scholarships and lower coaching salaries. If there was an opportunity for a football only FBS invite I would have no trepidation about NDSU having the means to be competitive. We as fans would absolutely have to get used to more losses though. That's the risk that getting out from under the FCS glass ceiling would entail. The reward is that upward mobility.

[dewey]

NDSU's growth between 2010 and now is amazing. NDSU fans have made sure everyone knew about it.


In 2010 they were at 15 million


NDSU has seen massive growth, in reality, at a near 90% growth to 28 million


To match an equivalent of a decades worth of commitment like those three did moving up the need to more than double that growth for a decade and then maintain it at the rate of "inflation" of athletics

I would imagine that a big increase in money is from the Fargodome being sold out more but the Fargodome is 8p% full now. Hard to squeeze more out of that.

Dewey

[Reign of Terrier]

I heard recently that the Fargodone could be renovated to expand to more seats FWIW.

Regardless, being at FBS presents long term revenue opportunities once you get the up front capital costs down. Who says in a decade or two they can't break ground on another stadium at some point?

I dunno. I know CCU is in a different geography than NDSU but I really do believe if they can pull it off, hell yeah NDSU could too.

[clenz]

I would imagine that a big increase in money is from the Fargodome being sold out more but the Fargodome is 8p% full now. Hard to squeeze more out of that.

Dewey
PSL are going to have to WAY up.

[caribbeanhen]

to be fair, ETSU's stadium is probably the kind that can be expanded to a crazy high number most practically.

expanded for what... cardboard cutouts?

[Professor Chaos]

I heard recently that the Fargodone could be renovated to expand to more seats FWIW.

Regardless, being at FBS presents long term revenue opportunities once you get the up front capital costs down. Who says in a decade or two they can't break ground on another stadium at some point?

I dunno. I know CCU is in a different geography than NDSU but I really do believe if they can pull it off, hell yeah NDSU could too.
I don't know where you heard that but unless they were talking about a few hundred more seats they were feeding you a line. The program outgrew the Fargodome a few years back but it's getting to the point now where we don't even sell out anymore so I'm less inclined to think a new venue is needed now than I was a few years ago. I think reduced demand is due to more than just "fatigue" though and is also due to escalating ticket prices and the ease of watching games from home. In any case, unless they went with a new outdoor venue, the ticket capacity/revenue is about topped out with the Fargodome.

[Reign of Terrier]

expanded for what... cardboard cutouts?

This was an architectural observation lol probably out of place here

[clenz]

50-60M more per year is grossly overstated. These are all the same arguments that were when NDSU hung around for far too long in D2. From a competitive standpoint NDSU football would be competitive in any G5 league right now with fewer scholarships and lower coaching salaries. If there was an opportunity for a football only FBS invite I would have no trepidation about NDSU having the means to be competitive. We as fans would absolutely have to get used to more losses though. That's the risk that getting out from under the FCS glass ceiling would entail. The reward is that upward mobility.
Maybe.

I'm looking strictly at "matching the commitment the true FCS move ups of the last decade" have made.

We can look only at their post move up increases and the average is still a 90% increase post move increase for those three.

"Best case" for funding is NDSU only needs 12-15 million more per year. 12 million is still a 40% increase to the budget, and given the cost of going FBS and everything that goes with it I'm guess 12 million is slightly light.

That's not a small chunk of change. Those three were helped by the media rights of the Sun Belt. You think this new CUSA is going to get that kind of media deal?

The Sun Belt also just signed a new deal this summer that gives everyone a 50% increase on their existing media payouts which also guarantees games on ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNU. From what I can gather that means that schools in the Sun Belt are now getting closer to a million dollars per year - which is nearly the entirety of the payout CUSA gets total.

[Panther88]

Congrats to SHSU and Jacksonville St on making the leap.

SHSU seriously needs a more up to date football stadium.

[dewey]

PSL are going to have to WAY up.

Exactly! I would be giving up my season tickets if that happens

Dewey

[clenz]

Exactly! I would be giving up my season tickets if that happens

Dewey
My guess is season tickets go up a not small amount on their own from the 300 on the sidelines they are now.

NDSU already has a massive portion of their fan base paying 2800 PER SEAT for PSLs on top of the ticket cost.

I can't imagine a bunch of people being super happy to be paying 4 grand a year for FIU, Liberty, NMSU, and La Tech

[dewey]

My guess is season tickets go up a not small amount on their own from the 300 on the sidelines they are now.

NDSU already has a massive portion of their fan base paying 2800 PER SEAT for PSLs on top of the ticket cost.

I can't imagine a bunch of people being super happy to be paying 4 grand a year for FIU, Liberty, NMSU, and La Tech

My yearly fee for tickets is $300 (sidelines 10 yardline 40 rows up). Those PSL fees are going way up.

Right? Not 1 team from the CUSA makes me even remotely excited.

SDSU, USD, GFCC and UNI are more excited games then those CUSA teams.

Dewey

[Reign of Terrier]

I get the impression that NDSU is not optimally run of an athletic department because I feel like some of these problems should have been anticipated and alleviated a couple years ago.

[Reign of Terrier]

Also, I think the recent move ups will tell you that it's not the conference games that were the selling point, but the OOC games. App playing Wake and Miami at home was clutch for them as a fan base, even if they didn't win.

[dewey]

I get the impression that NDSU is not optimally run of an athletic department because I feel like some of these problems should have been anticipated and alleviated a couple years ago.

Out of curiosity what do you think is not optimally run?

Dewey

[Reign of Terrier]

Out of curiosity what do you think is not optimally run?

Dewey

To be clear, I'm not saying it's ineptly run, I just figured after the fifth championship (6 or so years ago) straight there would be some serious SWOT analyses about the economics of the program. By virtue of supply and demand, ticket prices were going to get mad expensive. Maybe the admin was being humble and thinking it couldn't go on forever. At that point, I would have thought about investing in a new stadium that could be expanded (regardless of FBS aspirations), if only to alleviate that cost threat.

Investing in a new stadium would be hella expensive and some fans may say you don't need it, but that sort of aspirational thinking is what propels programs forward. Wofford had a similar thing with our basketball program. We had a mediocre gym we played in, but it was top tier for our conference as a home court because we packed it out and it was hard to beat us there. The administration decided we needed a new arena and the first impressions were "why" and "where would be put it. Long story short and $30m or so later, it was well worth the investment and it's now one of the best midmajor arenas in basketball.

I'm not saying that NDSU needed to do something like that, but I feel a more proactive administration would have seen the possible problems and economic bursting by not being growth oriented off the field. But hey, this is just my impression, I'm extremely fallible here. I have no idea about the inside workings of a university in a state I've never been to.

[Reign of Terrier]

For example, I'm pretty sure App state and Georgia Southern (or at least app state) does at least one stadium expansion every decade. Obviously the logistics of that are a lot easier for them, but that's the sort of growth mindset you need to bring. NDSU has been in the fargodome is what, 1991? And obviously a top venue in FCS, but I would expect more growth.

[katss07]

Congrats to SHSU and Jacksonville St on making the leap.

SHSU seriously needs a more up to date football stadium.
I know a school in the Houston area that has a stadium that makes Bowers look like a junior high facility… maybe they should call CUSA and throw their name into the hat (save us)!

[Professor Chaos]

I get the impression that NDSU is not optimally run of an athletic department because I feel like some of these problems should have been anticipated and alleviated a couple years ago.
Well, building a new football venue would be a 9 figure capital project even before construction costs skyrocketed so that's not something you can throw together in a few years especially since they wouldn't have a local partner (as they did with the city with the Fargodome).

I've come to the realization that the only way they outgrow the Fargodome again is to move FBS and hope to grow the program further. It won't happen at the FCS level.

[dewey]

For example, I'm pretty sure App state and Georgia Southern (or at least app state) does at least one stadium expansion every decade. Obviously the logistics of that are a lot easier for them, but that's the sort of growth mindset you need to bring. NDSU has been in the fargodome is what, 1991? And obviously a top venue in FCS, but I would expect more growth.

The problem with the Fargodome is that it cannot be expanded. It is a fixed roof system with 4 massive columns in each corner. Not as easy as adding more stands to the aides of an outdoor stadium.

Dewey

[Reign of Terrier]

Well, building a new football venue would be a 9 figure capital project even before construction costs skyrocketed so that's not something you can throw together in a few years especially since they wouldn't have a local partner (as they did with the city with the Fargodome).

I've come to the realization that the only way they outgrow the Fargodome again is to move FBS and hope to grow the program further. It won't happen at the FCS level.

And that's why I think an FBS move is very close to inevitable because all non-football aspect of the culture will likely stagnant as a result, which could impact the football side of things eventually.

Not saying that's certain, but it's possible.

[caribbeanhen]

Will Sam be the first FBS program with a track around their field????


I’m stealing this. Lol

[clenz]

Also, I think the recent move ups will tell you that it's not the conference games that were the selling point, but the OOC games. App playing Wake and Miami at home was clutch for them as a fan base, even if they didn't win.

Back to geography



Other than Minnesota what type of OOC game is going to garner that interest? They don’t have local schools to try to prove they aren’t little brother. Hell, they barely have regional schools.

I’m not sure why those in the east coast really don’t realize how actually empty it truly is out here, and we aren’t even the super empty areas

A 300-400 mile trip is a nice day/overnight get away out here.

This idea of Wake and App (which is a third of the distance of NDSU and Minnesota…it’s UNI and Iowa for travel reference out here) and NDSU and Mizzou (essentially the same travel time and one of the closest big make schools to NDSU which of why I picked it) are the same as far as hype and fan attraction is just silly in reality.


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[katss07]

I’m stealing this. Lol
Pretty sure Buffalo has a track right now

[clenz]

And that's why I think an FBS move is very close to inevitable because all non-football aspect of the culture will likely stagnant as a result, which could impact the football side of things eventually.

Not saying that's certain, but it's possible.

NDSU pays a dollar per year for the dome.

The cost to build a 45k seat dome which would never be filled- you aren’t building open air in Fargo - is astronomically unrealistic

For reference US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis cost over something like $600 per square foot. AT&T Stadium was something like $450 per square foot

Not that NDSU builds something as lavish as that but it's not crazy to put a modest domed stadium at $300 per square foot. Let's say they build it to be half the size of US Bank (because ATT is stupidly large).

That gives it a capacity of 36,500 and a square footage of 850,000 square feet...ish

Let's even eat some of that cost away because maybe I'm over esitmating.

You're looking at a $200,000,000 investment

That's ****ing stupid for a G5 program. Especially for a program that there really isn't reason to believe they fill it.


I did some looking because I remember Syracuse just redid the Carrier Dome

They spent 120 million dollars to just give their dome a facelift. That' wasn't planning, building, etc. a dome. It was taking their dome and putting a new roof on, updating electronics (video boards and sound system), updating a few seats, and making a few fan areas nicer.

Now imagine doing all of that but needing to add on buying land for it, paying for renderings and engineering before it starts, and then in 2021 or 2022 the cost of labor to build it and the cost of material to build it.


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[WestCoastAggie]

If Sam Houston and Jax State are indeed going, it could start to get weird. I could see CUSA reaching out to the Dakota/Montana schools + Idaho as a group and creating a Mountain West Division. Imagine this:

1) UTEP
2) NMSU
3) Idaho
4) Montana
5) Montana State
6) SDSU
7) NDSU

1) La Tech
2) SHSU
3) Jax State
4) Liberty
5) FIU
6) Jackson State
7) North Carolina A&T

Nope! Take A&T off this list at this point.

[Go Green]

Will Sam be the first FBS program with a track around their field????

The LA Coliseum (USC and UCLA for a while) had a track until the early 1990s.

[Daytripper]

I will be perfectly honest. I am not a fan of Sam Houston moving to the CUSA. I don't think we are ready for this big of a leap, especially financially. Unless our university administration knows something about the future that they are not sharing, I don't see the upside to this.

[Gil Dobie]

Back to geography



Other than Minnesota what type of OOC game is going to garner that interest? They don’t have local schools to try to prove they aren’t little brother. Hell, they barely have regional schools.

I’m not sure why those in the east coast really don’t realize how actually empty it truly is out here, and we aren’t even the super empty areas

A 300-400 mile trip is a nice day/overnight get away out here.

This idea of Wake and App (which is a third of the distance of NDSU and Minnesota…it’s UNI and Iowa for travel reference out here) and NDSU and Mizzou (essentially the same travel time and one of the closest big make schools to NDSU which of why I picked it) are the same as far as hype and fan attraction is just silly in reality.


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Nebraska would be next to Minnesota in popularity in ND, and that's about a 8 hour drive.

[Mocs123]

I will be perfectly honest. I am not a fan of Sam Houston moving to the CUSA. I don't think we are ready for this big of a leap, especially financially. Unless our university administration knows something about the future that they are not sharing, I don't see the upside to this.

I honestly don't know anything about SHSU's readiness to move up, but my guess is the administration is taking a gamble here and may have felt like if they didn't take the opportunity now, they might not have it later. Once (If) things stabilize if the G5 conferences are full there won't be spots for FCS programs to move up. I imagine the recent success of Coastal Carolina, App State, and Liberty probably didn't hurt as all three of those programs were FCS teams just a few years ago and have all had success at the FBS level and had recognition on the national stage.

[Daytripper]

I honestly don't know anything about SHSU's readiness to move up, but my guess is the administration is taking a gamble here and may have felt like if they didn't take the opportunity now, they might not have it later. Once (If) things stabilize if the G5 conferences are full there won't be spots for FCS programs to move up. I imagine the recent success of Coastal Carolina, App State, and Liberty probably didn't hurt as all three of those programs were FCS teams just a few years ago and have all had success at the FBS level and had recognition on the national stage.

The only potentially comparable program to us among those three would be Coastal. Liberty is private with a bottomless pit of God's money (we are a pauper) and App State has a rabid fan base (we don't). But, I think you are correct about the gamble. Do we wait on the WAC to move as a group or jump now? I guess our administration sees it as "a bird in the hand..." kind of situation.

[Catatonic]

The only potentially comparable program to us among those three would be Coastal. Liberty is private with a bottomless pit of God's money (we are a pauper) and App State has a rabid fan base (we don't). But, I think you are correct about the gamble. Do we wait on the WAC to move as a group or jump now? I guess our administration sees it as "a bird in the hand..." kind of situation.

Obviously I’m not privy to the thinking of Sam’s administration so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but I don’t get it. Sam has had wildly successful football teams playing before sparse crowds. Your students just turned down a fee to help pat for athletics, another indicator of lack of support. Maybe Sam finds big money donors willing to pay for needed facility upgrades but where the revenue for improving the budget is going to come from remains a mystery amidst lackluster support by students and other stakeholders.

[Cocky]

load the bus

Not like we are going to win any championships in FCS.

[WestCoastAggie]

To be fair: they did not have Chadwell when they moved up. In terms of filling seats and stuff, they were absolutely abysmal. They expanded the stadium and you can probably find posts on here back then about how they'll never fill it, how it was a fool's errand, etc. Now they pack it out and I think it's gone well.

Both JSU and SHSU are worlds ahead of where Coastal was and they can easily schedule bus drive OOC games with quality opponents. They will be fine.

As for NDSU and others, the elaborate solutions are probably on the table, because CUSA is going to want some sustainably with their next configuration.

- - - Updated - - -


I am completely serious when I say never, ever change.

Hooty is a damn hoot, I'll tell you what.

[BEAR]

Jacksonville State and Sam?????!!! Dang you two! I just got to see JSU and have really enjoyed our good close games with Sammy (series Sammy +1)! I can see us moving up in 10 years or less...but for now we have to find another ASUN foe for football to replace JSU! xlolx

[Daytripper]

Jacksonville State and Sam?????!!! Dang you two! I just got to see JSU and have really enjoyed our good close games with Sammy (series Sammy +1)! I can see us moving up in 10 years or less...but for now we have to find another ASUN foe for football to replace JSU! xlolx

There is a seat available in the CUSA for the Bears....at least in my opinion.

[Reign of Terrier]

NDSU pays a dollar per year for the dome.

The cost to build a 45k seat dome which would never be filled- you aren’t building open air in Fargo - is astronomically unrealistic

For reference US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis cost over something like $600 per square foot. AT&T Stadium was something like $450 per square foot

Not that NDSU builds something as lavish as that but it's not crazy to put a modest domed stadium at $300 per square foot. Let's say they build it to be half the size of US Bank (because ATT is stupidly large).

That gives it a capacity of 36,500 and a square footage of 850,000 square feet...ish

Let's even eat some of that cost away because maybe I'm over esitmating.

You're looking at a $200,000,000 investment

That's ****ing stupid for a G5 program. Especially for a program that there really isn't reason to believe they fill it.


I did some looking because I remember Syracuse just redid the Carrier Dome

They spent 120 million dollars to just give their dome a facelift. That' wasn't planning, building, etc. a dome. It was taking their dome and putting a new roof on, updating electronics (video boards and sound system), updating a few seats, and making a few fan areas nicer.

Now imagine doing all of that but needing to add on buying land for it, paying for renderings and engineering before it starts, and then in 2021 or 2022 the cost of labor to build it and the cost of material to build it.


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I don't disagree with anything you're saying here, I'm just sort of pointing to a small administrative thinking. NDSU has been in the Fargo Dome since the early 90s, clearly had one of the best up and coming programs in D1 since the mid-2000s, and there's just been no creativity in this department for something like 20 years. I'm not saying it's an easy solution or even a cheap one, but neglecting the fan experience by failing to invest in the program is a huge oversight and they're going to be living with the consequences longer than they should, had they had more creativity and foresight.

[Panther88]

I know a school in the Houston area that has a stadium that makes Bowers look like a junior high facility… maybe they should call CUSA and throw their name into the hat (save us)!

The north-end Woodforest expansion has the feel of a D-1 facility, coupled w/ all of the available parking in the adjoining lots. Amazing facility, coupled w/ the adjacent state of the art notatorium.

SHSU, like TxSt and UNT, always had D-I FBS-like #s so I never understood the desire to toy around in fcs land.

[clenz]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying here, I'm just sort of pointing to a small administrative thinking. NDSU has been in the Fargo Dome since the early 90s, clearly had one of the best up and coming programs in D1 since the mid-2000s, and there's just been no creativity in this department for something like 20 years. I'm not saying it's an easy solution or even a cheap one, but neglecting the fan experience by failing to invest in the program is a huge oversight and they're going to be living with the consequences longer than they should, had they had more creativity and foresight.

If not dropping 200 million plus on a stadium that will never sell out is small tome thinking than damn near every school in the country is small time


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[Panther88]

Jacksonville State and Sam?????!!! Dang you two! I just got to see JSU and have really enjoyed our good close games with Sammy (series Sammy +1)! I can see us moving up in 10 years or less...but for now we have to find another ASUN foe for football to replace JSU! xlolx

Tarleton St is gaining traction. lol

[Winterborn]

Having said that, I really think programs like NDSU just need to go and it will work itself. People are talking about costs and not benefits. Like yes, it's going to cost things! But it'll be worth it in my subjective opinion.

If Wofford wasn't a school that had no business even thinking about FBS for multiple reasons I would want them to go up ASAP. NDSU fans may not notice this because they win the championship all the time, but bowl games are pretty fun and can give seasons a hint of success and progress and hope for the next season where there otherwise wouldn't be any. Meanwhile, you can win 9-10 games at the FCS level and end the season with 99% certainty with a bad taste in your mouth.



And we all know what opinions are worth (including mine).......

A college, and along the same vein the Athletic Department, needs to be run like a business. Just going and figuring out the financials later is a recipe for disaster. After all tt is pretty easy to spend somebodies else's money when one does not have to suffer the consequences of "defaulting". And athletics are not the only consideration in picking a conference but the benefit to the college as a whole needs to be considered.

As for a bowl game being "fun". I really do not care, as the fan's "feelings" should not even be in the consideration when making a decision like this. I have two criteria that need to be met for me to be on board to go to a bowl game. A) Does it make the college money or at least break even, B) Does it increase the opportunities of the colleges participating. Both the athletic and non-athletic side.

If both of those criteria are not filled, I have zero interest in some random meaningless bowl. Of which most of them are. xcoffeex



I have no issues moving up for the RIGHT invite. Just to move up and be stuck in some crappy conference (like C-usa) does not appeal to me (nor to the donors I have talked to). And I have no problem donating my money and time to other projects, if I feel like the college made a decision I think is shortsighted.

[Panther88]

The only potentially comparable program to us among those three would be Coastal. Liberty is private with a bottomless pit of God's money (we are a pauper) and App State has a rabid fan base (we don't). But, I think you are correct about the gamble. Do we wait on the WAC to move as a group or jump now? I guess our administration sees it as "a bird in the hand..." kind of situation.

I am decently excited for SHSU as I always thought SHSU needed to be at that level. I kinda' sorta' saw some of this years ago as I participated in two arms of the UNT-Denton transition under the Simon regime. It was a well thought out and decently planned, strategic move. Granted, UNT-Denton seriously reached out to the local corporate community in the bountiful DFW market but still, I'm sure SHSU will do likewise regionally. ;) *wink!* *wink!*

It's a win-win for SHSU; just be prepared to be the whipping tool for a few (ala OU, OkSt, ut-austin, txa&m-b/cs, Tx Tech, TCU, Nebraska, Colorado, etc.) garnering bigger paydays during a short stint until the recruiting philosophy changes AND the new stadium becomes evident.

Congrats on the move up, galvanizing the SHSU fanbase for (financial) support, AND congrats on the forthcoming new football venue. Bowers will make a great t&f venue.

[Professor Chaos]

I have no issues moving up for the RIGHT invite. Just to move up and be stuck in some crappy conference (like C-usa) does not appeal to me (nor to the donors I have talked to). And I have no problem donating my money and time to other projects, if I feel like the college made a decision I think is shortsighted.
The catch-22 here is there are donors at NDSU pulling money off the table now because they're fed up with the direction of FCS football. I don't know what the mix is but it's pretty much a lose/lose situation right now unless the AD is able to articulate very clearly the benefit of either staying or going and why that choice was made and even then I'm sure there will be holdouts on either side who aren't convinced.

Personally, I get the feeling most of those who are bored right now and pulling their support would be the same ones to jump ship if, after an FBS move was made, NDSU football would have some down years.

[wcugrad95]

Reign of Terror's point is not to go drop $200M today - it is from the outside you would have thought NDSU would have been building over the years like some of the earlier FCS dynasties did. App started winning big, and then they started thinking big (or at least bigger) with facilities upgrades over a number of years. NDSU's administration isn't really blamed too much because of the success and given the geography playing at the FCS level has been the right thing for them.

Not defending his take, but I am reading his point to be that many schools who go through loads of success start thinking bigger and try to build off of that over time where NDSU keeps having a hugely successful program but does not appear ready to make a leap forward. My take is before all of this realignment (and I expect more to come when the "big boys" finally just break totally away from the NCAA), there was not much to be gained. About 1/2 of App fans would have been happy to stay FCS and keep winning vs going FBS and playing in a really early, meaningless bowl game. But fast forward to 2021 and beyond, App is now positioned in arguably the top or 2nd best "G5" football conference and will be in position to have bigger TV money, probably replace FCS schools as the "money games" against the big boys when they go their own way, etc.

I certainly wouldn't be in for spending hundreds of millions of dollars right now, but maybe if the money would have already been spent over the past 10 years the Bison would be a team in the conversation for moves to bigger (not necessarily better) destinations.

[Panther88]

SHSU finally has its NC in football.

Now, give all of fcs the middle finger and move the hell on! :D

Wait..... the north-endzone expansion @ CISD's Woodforest... I wonder... would LSCC-MontCo actually attempt to field college sponsored sports soon? Certainly have the #s throughout the system, budget, etc. xreadx Nah... cannot happen, right? xreadx

xlolx xlmaox

[wcugrad95]

As for C-USA, my oldest daughter just graduated from FAU last Spring and I have watched a lot of (not so good) football the previous 4 years. But that conference has figured out a way to stay afloat for decades now, and they will get some schools to join. It would make a lot more sense for the G5 to just start over and figure out a regionalized plan, but it is not going to happen because of the money involved. FAU and the other C-USA schools who left did so because a move to the AAC came with a starting price of $2M annually in TV money. They were getting somewhere around $500-$600k in C-USA.

Seems inevitable that we are heading towards a new set of divisions where the P5 (which might end up becoming the P4) break away, the current G5 become the new FBS with way less money, and then FCS will have even fewer opportunities to generate revenue. So the question is if you are an aspiring program and your school and admin really, truly are all-in on football, which level do you want to be at? I totally understand JMU, SHSU, JSU, etc. moving "up" if given the chance.

[Professor Chaos]

Reign of Terror's point is not to go drop $200M today - it is from the outside you would have thought NDSU would have been building over the years like some of the earlier FCS dynasties did. App started winning big, and then they started thinking big (or at least bigger) with facilities upgrades over a number of years. NDSU's administration isn't really blamed too much because of the success and given the geography playing at the FCS level has been the right thing for them.

Not defending his take, but I am reading his point to be that many schools who go through loads of success start thinking bigger and try to build off of that over time where NDSU keeps having a hugely successful program but does not appear ready to make a leap forward. My take is before all of this realignment (and I expect more to come when the "big boys" finally just break totally away from the NCAA), there was not much to be gained. About 1/2 of App fans would have been happy to stay FCS and keep winning vs going FBS and playing in a really early, meaningless bowl game. But fast forward to 2021 and beyond, App is now positioned in arguably the top or 2nd best "G5" football conference and will be in position to have bigger TV money, probably replace FCS schools as the "money games" against the big boys when they go their own way, etc.

I certainly wouldn't be in for spending hundreds of millions of dollars right now, but maybe if the money would have already been spent over the past 10 years the Bison would be a team in the conversation for moves to bigger (not necessarily better) destinations.
You make some good points and, in a much more reasonable tone, express the frustrations many of our fans have with the lack of communication from the AD on this topic over the last few years. The flip side of that is we really don't know what sort of conversations NDSU has had or is having in terms of moving FBS. These things don't happen in the public eye and, in most cases, they're not made public until a move is imminent (for instance I saw a quote that the Texas/OU move to the SEC had been in the works for "at least 6 months" when it was finally leaked in July).

In terms of a new venue it is a monstrous capital project and it's not like NDSU hasn't been undertaking capital projects over the last few years. Since 2015 they've built a new indoor track facility, done a major renovation to their basketball/wrestling arena, built a new softball facility, and are now in the process of building a new indoor practice facility. All of those combined are small potatoes compared to the capital required to build a new football venue. Another hurdle is the ND State Board of Higher Education has required them to raise almost all the capital for these projects before they break ground. As in they have no option to finance the construction with bonds and such.

But moreover to the argument that NDSU should've already made the move you have to look at it from an FBS conference's perspective. What benefit does NDSU give the MAC or the MWC? Every school in that conference gets a smaller slice of the CFP, TV contract, and NCAA Tournament shares money by inviting another school so there has to be some clear benefit. Having a football program that can come in and be immediately competitive is probably at least 3rd on the list I would think for those conferences (after things like geography and TV market). The argument has been made ad nauseum on Bisonville that the NDSU AD needs to be selling the school to conferences on these aspects but, again, we don't know if that's been the case or not.

[F'N Hawks]

The catch-22 here is there are donors at NDSU pulling money off the table now because they're fed up with the direction of FCS football. I don't know what the mix is but it's pretty much a lose/lose situation right now unless the AD is able to articulate very clearly the benefit of either staying or going and why that choice was made and even then I'm sure there will be holdouts on either side who aren't convinced.

Personally, I get the feeling most of those who are bored right now and pulling their support would be the same ones to jump ship if, after an FBS move was made, NDSU football would have some down years.

Plus, NDSU is down about 3,000 tickets per game this year in revenue. That is a big chunk of money coming off covid losses.

[Professor Chaos]

Plus, NDSU is down about 3,000 tickets per game this year in revenue. That is a big chunk of money coming off covid losses.
That is true although tickets are more expensive this year than they've ever been before also (they raised prices prior to the 2020 fall season that never happened and kept them flat from there this fall). I'd say NDSU's football ticket revenue with a 15k attendance average is probably more now than it was in 2015 when they sold out every game with ticket prices 30% cheaper or more.

[F'N Hawks]

That is true although tickets are more expensive this year than they've ever been before also (they raised prices prior to the 2020 fall season that never happened and kept them flat from there this fall). I'd say NDSU's football ticket revenue with a 15k attendance average is probably more now than it was in 2015 when they sold out every game with ticket prices 30% cheaper or more.

OK, that certainly helps.

I am fine with UND staying where they are at as long as they have a REGIONAL conference at FCS level. My excitement over them hopefully getting six wins so they can be bowl eligible and play in the rain in Mobile, AL on December 18th could not be less.

[Mocs123]

To go FBS you have to fund 44 more scholarships. 22 for football, and 22 additional for Title IX compliance.
The travel in the new C-USA would be terrible. You'd have to fly your womens vollyball team around to play from New Mexico, to Florida, to Virginia. That has to be more expensive in all sports.
JSU doesn't need much when it comes to facilities, but I think Sam Houston does.

[F'N Hawks]

To go FBS you have to fund 44 more scholarships. 22 for football, and 22 additional for Title IX compliance.
The travel in the new C-USA would be terrible. You'd have to fly your womens vollyball team around to play from New Mexico, to Florida, to Virginia. That has to be more expensive in all sports.
JSU doesn't need much when it comes to facilities, but I think Sam Houston does.

Title IX is a great point. NDSU would have some major moves to make as they are walking a thin line right now.

[Winterborn]

The catch-22 here is there are donors at NDSU pulling money off the table now because they're fed up with the direction of FCS football. I don't know what the mix is but it's pretty much a lose/lose situation right now unless the AD is able to articulate very clearly the benefit of either staying or going and why that choice was made and even then I'm sure there will be holdouts on either side who aren't convinced.

Personally, I get the feeling most of those who are bored right now and pulling their support would be the same ones to jump ship if, after an FBS move was made, NDSU football would have some down years.


Agree. My feelings are they were/are looking for an excuse to pull their donations anyway once it wasn't seen as the "cool" thing to be apart of anymore. I get people's frustration, as I too would like better competition, etc. and think the FCS is heading in a direction that I do not want NDSU football to be apart of. But I do not want to sacrifice our longterm upward potential just to satisfy some folks that are suffering from LDS so they can be happy in the short term.

That balance is what the AD's job is all about and I have had a couple of conversations with people I am friends with (long time donors) that give me confidence that our AD is finding the right balance. Just because there is no news, does not mean they are playing solitaire and pinochle back in the break room. Our passion and willingness to speculate as a fan base makes us our own worst enemy here, as dealings at this level of money and politics take a different type of skill.

[Winterborn]

In terms of a new venue it is a monstrous capital project and it's not like NDSU hasn't been undertaking capital projects over the last few years. Since 2015 they've built a new indoor track facility, done a major renovation to their basketball/wrestling arena, built a new softball facility, and are now in the process of building a new indoor practice facility. All of those combined are small potatoes compared to the capital required to build a new football venue. Another hurdle is the ND State Board of Higher Education has required them to raise almost all the capital for these projects before they break ground. As in they have no option to finance the construction with bonds and such.


It is difficult for an outsider to understand the amount of control that the ND State Board of Higher Education has over NDSU and the amount of "dislike" by members of the board and certain legislators have against NDSU. Internal politics on the subject of Education are a huge and very cutthroat deal here in ND. The funding battles NDSU has to go though for even the most minor of things is hard to comprehend.

[walliver]

I have no doubt that NDSU wouldn’t do well in FBS, but at present, I don’t see a good landing spot.

The P5 level is not feasible. The stadium is way too small, and North Dakota isn’t very populous.

At G5 level, NDSU is too far west for the MAC, and too Far East for the MWC. Too far north for the Belch, which itself also seems to be moving eastward. The AAC still has their quixotic P6 hang-up. That leaves only C-USA whose geographic footprint increasingly looks like the Deep South.

My gut feeling is that in order to keep the P5 happy, the NCAA will regulate football even less than it does now, and schools and conferences can do as they please and FCS and the NCAA playoffs will be a voluntary option fairly soon and anybody can call themselves “FBS”.

[Yote 53]

NDSU pays a dollar per year for the dome.

The cost to build a 45k seat dome which would never be filled- you aren’t building open air in Fargo - is astronomically unrealistic

For reference US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis cost over something like $600 per square foot. AT&T Stadium was something like $450 per square foot

Not that NDSU builds something as lavish as that but it's not crazy to put a modest domed stadium at $300 per square foot. Let's say they build it to be half the size of US Bank (because ATT is stupidly large).

That gives it a capacity of 36,500 and a square footage of 850,000 square feet...ish

Let's even eat some of that cost away because maybe I'm over esitmating.

You're looking at a $200,000,000 investment

That's ****ing stupid for a G5 program. Especially for a program that there really isn't reason to believe they fill it.


I did some looking because I remember Syracuse just redid the Carrier Dome

They spent 120 million dollars to just give their dome a facelift. That' wasn't planning, building, etc. a dome. It was taking their dome and putting a new roof on, updating electronics (video boards and sound system), updating a few seats, and making a few fan areas nicer.

Now imagine doing all of that but needing to add on buying land for it, paying for renderings and engineering before it starts, and then in 2021 or 2022 the cost of labor to build it and the cost of material to build it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Clenz -

Where do you see UNI ending up in all of this? I'm just curious as I think the Dakotas and UNI are just as able to make these same moves to the G5 but we'd have to do it together due to geographic issues. We're all just on an island out here.

I mean, we're talking about Tarleton freaking State to the FBS ahead of established FCS Valley schools. This is getting kind of ridiculous.

[CockyGeek]

I guess JSU is going. Every time a rumor has been reported it ends up being true. We've got somebody in the front office who blabs to the media every chance they get.

[BEAR]

There is a seat available in the CUSA for the Bears....at least in my opinion.

What's crazy about all that is UCA has some donors that will come out of the woodwork if we choose/get invited to go CUSA. But I'm sure they would only donate if the university promised to get on board with raising the yearly money so it would fall out of the big donors hands in a couple of years you know. So expensive to initially move up. Better facilities. More schollys. More staff. ON and ON.

Coach Brown said yesterday that he compared us to Coastal Carolina. Both in a town named Conway. Both in a small sized town...Conway, SC- 27K, UCA- 68k. Both have weird fields. But Coastal had a vision and implemented it. UCA WILL do the same.

Wonder if he's hinting that in a few years UCA will move up....xeyebrowx


I think so. I mean if the P5 teams run away then that makes the G5 the new top NCAA level and teams like UCA, if they can get funded, should move up to the bowl subdivision.

[Reign of Terrier]

You make some good points and, in a much more reasonable tone, express the frustrations many of our fans have with the lack of communication from the AD on this topic over the last few years. The flip side of that is we really don't know what sort of conversations NDSU has had or is having in terms of moving FBS. These things don't happen in the public eye and, in most cases, they're not made public until a move is imminent (for instance I saw a quote that the Texas/OU move to the SEC had been in the works for "at least 6 months" when it was finally leaked in July).

In terms of a new venue it is a monstrous capital project and it's not like NDSU hasn't been undertaking capital projects over the last few years. Since 2015 they've built a new indoor track facility, done a major renovation to their basketball/wrestling arena, built a new softball facility, and are now in the process of building a new indoor practice facility. All of those combined are small potatoes compared to the capital required to build a new football venue. Another hurdle is the ND State Board of Higher Education has required them to raise almost all the capital for these projects before they break ground. As in they have no option to finance the construction with bonds and such.

But moreover to the argument that NDSU should've already made the move you have to look at it from an FBS conference's perspective. What benefit does NDSU give the MAC or the MWC? Every school in that conference gets a smaller slice of the CFP, TV contract, and NCAA Tournament shares money by inviting another school so there has to be some clear benefit. Having a football program that can come in and be immediately competitive is probably at least 3rd on the list I would think for those conferences (after things like geography and TV market). The argument has been made ad nauseum on Bisonville that the NDSU AD needs to be selling the school to conferences on these aspects but, again, we don't know if that's been the case or not.

What, my tone was mean? :D

But yeah, I mean, people don't understand that there are people whose sole job or area of expertise is to make these grand projects happen.

I keep going back to Wofford, because it's what I know. We are a college with less than 20k living alumni. If you told me in 2015 we would invest in close to 100m (at least more than 60 or 70m) in new buildings on campus and close to double the endowment to almost $500m (including adding 2-3 sports teams, at least two new stadiums, one new dorm, and multiple academic buildings) I'd say that sounds like crazy talk. But we did that in less than a decade.

The fact is, colleges expand on crazy capital investments all the time. I saw somewhere that JMU recently invested something like over $100m on an arts center. Again, I don't mean to diminish the challenges of these things or the stiff costs, but I think a lot of times people get caught up in the initial price tag and not the fact that similar projects happen all the time. Obviously, the demographic and economic realities of NDSU and Fargo may be way different from other places mentioned here, but i still think the challenges arents as uncommon as people think nationally.

[Bisonator]

First of all NDSU would only consider a FB only invite to an FBS conference like CUSA. There's no way they'd leave the Summit League for a far flung conference of muck. It might be different if a MW or MAC were to offer an all sports invite but that isn't going to happen.

Second I'm not sure where this comment is coming from:

I get the impression that NDSU is not optimally run of an athletic department because I feel like some of these problems should have been anticipated and alleviated a couple years ago.

What problems are you talking about? They are one of most well run AD in the entire NCAA. They've been improving their facilities since going D1. As PC mentioned they've upgraded just about everything already and are currently building a new IPF. They have some of the best facilities in the FCS and G5. A new stadium is not happening without some major investors but that's not even needed to make an FBS move. The FD would be more then adequate for awhile at the FBS level. They also have one of the lowest subsidized AD in the NCAA. IMO more schools should be running their AD's like NDSU's rather then strapping their students with the financial burdens!

I'd love to see NDSU and SDSU try to make some type of FBS move together similar to their cooperation during the FCS transition. It's becoming clear to a lot of NDSU peeps that staying FCS is not going to be a good situation for the program moving forward. They might not have a choice to wait it out for the ideal situation to develop. The FCS is already becoming the new D2........hell maybe even D3 at this point.

[katss07]

There is a seat available in the CUSA for the Bears....at least in my opinion.
Yeah, our seat. Give it to UCA.

[Mocs123]

I think Wofford (especially Wofford Football) has benefitted significantly from one particular benefactor in particular. Not many universities have that sort of support.

[JacksFan40]

First of all NDSU would only consider a FB only invite to an FBS conference like CUSA. There's no way they'd leave the Summit League for a far flung conference of muck. It might be different if a MW or MAC were to offer an all sports invite but that isn't going to happen.

Second I'm not sure where this comment is coming from:


What problems are you talking about? They are one of most well run AD in the entire NCAA. They've been improving their facilities since going D1. As PC mentioned they've upgraded just about everything already and are currently building a new IPF. They have some of the best facilities in the FCS and G5. A new stadium is not happening without some major investors but that's not even needed to make an FBS move. The FD would be more then adequate for awhile at the FBS level. They also have one of the lowest subsidized AD in the NCAA. IMO more schools should be running their AD's like NDSU's rather then strapping their students with the financial burdens!

I'd love to see NDSU and SDSU try to make some type of FBS move together similar to their cooperation during the FCS transition. It's becoming clear to a lot of NDSU peeps that staying FCS is not going to be a good situation for the program moving forward. They might not have a choice to wait it out for the ideal situation to develop. The FCS is already becoming the new D2........hell maybe even D3 at this point.
If the Big XII continues its expansion like is rumored they would likely grab Boise State and maybe CSU or San Diego State out of the MWC. If that happens I could see them offering football only invites to SDSU and NDSU.

[POD Knows]

First of all NDSU would only consider a FB only invite to an FBS conference like CUSA. There's no way they'd leave the Summit League for a far flung conference of muck. It might be different if a MW or MAC were to offer an all sports invite but that isn't going to happen.

Second I'm not sure where this comment is coming from:


What problems are you talking about? They are one of most well run AD in the entire NCAA. They've been improving their facilities since going D1. As PC mentioned they've upgraded just about everything already and are currently building a new IPF. They have some of the best facilities in the FCS and G5. A new stadium is not happening without some major investors but that's not even needed to make an FBS move. The FD would be more then adequate for awhile at the FBS level. They also have one of the lowest subsidized AD in the NCAA. IMO more schools should be running their AD's like NDSU's rather then strapping their students with the financial burdens!

I'd love to see NDSU and SDSU try to make some type of FBS move together similar to their cooperation during the FCS transition. It's becoming clear to a lot of NDSU peeps that staying FCS is not going to be a good situation for the program moving forward. They might not have a choice to wait it out for the ideal situation to develop. The FCS is already becoming the new D2........hell maybe even D3 at this point.
Bravo.

[Winterborn]

First of all NDSU would only consider a FB only invite to an FBS conference like CUSA. There's no way they'd leave the Summit League for a far flung conference of muck. It might be different if a MW or MAC were to offer an all sports invite but that isn't going to happen.

Second I'm not sure where this comment is coming from:


What problems are you talking about? They are one of most well run AD in the entire NCAA. They've been improving their facilities since going D1. As PC mentioned they've upgraded just about everything already and are currently building a new IPF. They have some of the best facilities in the FCS and G5. A new stadium is not happening without some major investors but that's not even needed to make an FBS move. The FD would be more then adequate for awhile at the FBS level. They also have one of the lowest subsidized AD in the NCAA. IMO more schools should be running their AD's like NDSU's rather then strapping their students with the financial burdens!

I'd love to see NDSU and SDSU try to make some type of FBS move together similar to their cooperation during the FCS transition. It's becoming clear to a lot of NDSU peeps that staying FCS is not going to be a good situation for the program moving forward. They might not have a choice to wait it out for the ideal situation to develop. The FCS is already becoming the new D2........hell maybe even D3 at this point.

Considering that NDSU must have all the money upfront, the amount we have upgraded and expanded takes on a different perspective. xnodx

I have always wondered what it would take to change the governing language to allow the use of bonding for projects instead of straight cash/pledges.

[The Cats]

I think Wofford (especially Wofford Football) has benefitted significantly from one particular benefactor in particular. Not many universities have that sort of support.

This is a true sugar daddy....


Jerome J. Richardson, founding owner of The Carolina Panthers and long-time business leader in the Carolinas, has given $150 million to Wofford College, his alma mater. The gift — the largest in the college's history — is designated for the endowment with a focus on need-based scholarships and experiences for Wofford students.

With this gift, Richardson's contributions to Wofford exceed $262.6 million, among the largest individual commitments ever to a U.S. college or university. The $257.3 million he has given since 2014 as part of the current "For Wofford" campaign is the largest single campaign gift made to a national liberal arts college.

[Reign of Terrier]

This is a true sugar daddy....

We have multiple, not just Jerry😎

He's just the one you've heard of because you mostly know Wofford for athletics. Notice we got $130m over this campaign (that's only a year or two old) that wasn't Richardson...

[Professor Chaos]

What, my tone was mean? :D
I was referring to reasonable in relation to what's happening on Bisonville right now and you have been reasonable as well. I enjoy both Bisonville and AGS but I will be enjoying less of Bisonville until the realignment talk settles down. There's a very vocal bunch of Bison fans who view NDSU AD Matt Larsen somewhere between Calvin Coolidge and Bernie Madoff that are making that board intolerable right now. Good thing the Bison don't have a big game this week to talk about or anything...

[Panther88]

And now the MAC conference enters the fray. :D

[katss07]

And now the MAC conference enters the fray. :D
They’ve always been in the fray. They’re the reason this rumor surfaced.

[Chalupa Batman]

I was referring to reasonable in relation to what's happening on Bisonville right now and you have been reasonable as well. I enjoy both Bisonville and AGS but I will be enjoying less of Bisonville until the realignment talk settles down. There's a very vocal bunch of Bison fans who view NDSU AD Matt Larsen somewhere between Calvin Coolidge and Bernie Madoff that are making that board intolerable right now. Good thing the Bison don't have a big game this week to talk about or anything...

They have 3 separate threads right now all talking about the EXACT same thing. It's stupid.

[MSUBobcat]

What, my tone was mean? :D

But yeah, I mean, people don't understand that there are people whose sole job or area of expertise is to make these grand projects happen.

I keep going back to Wofford, because it's what I know. We are a college with less than 20k living alumni. If you told me in 2015 we would invest in close to 100m (at least more than 60 or 70m) in new buildings on campus and close to double the endowment to almost $500m (including adding 2-3 sports teams, at least two new stadiums, one new dorm, and multiple academic buildings) I'd say that sounds like crazy talk. But we did that in less than a decade.

The fact is, colleges expand on crazy capital investments all the time. I saw somewhere that JMU recently invested something like over $100m on an arts center. Again, I don't mean to diminish the challenges of these things or the stiff costs, but I think a lot of times people get caught up in the initial price tag and not the fact that similar projects happen all the time. Obviously, the demographic and economic realities of NDSU and Fargo may be way different from other places mentioned here, but i still think the challenges arents as uncommon as people think nationally.

Wofford being a private school, you may not be aware of the funding issues for athletic facilities. I can't speak to North Dakota (though it sounds similar from comments), but in Montana public funds aren't really used for athletics. Athletic facility improvements generally come from increases to student fees or from fundraising drives. MSU has built so many new buildings and residence halls on campus since I left in 2004 that the campus is almost unrecognizable. But our stadium expansion and newly opened Bobcat Athletic Complex was funded by donations and ticket/athletics related revenue. While football may cover their costs and then some, the excess doesn't go into a capital projects fund for further expansion; it goes to funding all the OTHER sports that lose money. There isn't some massive athletic department net income every year that could be socked away.

[Panther88]

They’ve always been in the fray. They’re the reason this rumor surfaced.

Looks like there is action behind the past words of speculation. I'm fairly certain there will be another release of information today.

[ST_Lawson]

The P5 level is not feasible. The stadium is way too small, and North Dakota isn’t very populous.

At G5 level, NDSU is too far west for the MAC, and too Far East for the MWC. Too far north for the Belch, which itself also seems to be moving eastward. The AAC still has their quixotic P6 hang-up. That leaves only C-USA whose geographic footprint increasingly looks like the Deep South.

North Dakota State to USports football (Canada) confirmed. Travel to Manitoba and Regina have got to be better than to FIU and UTEP.


If the Big XII continues its expansion like is rumored they would likely grab Boise State and maybe CSU or San Diego State out of the MWC. If that happens I could see them offering football only invites to SDSU and NDSU.

Wouldn't it be just as likely that they'd invite Montana and Montana State. It's a bit closer to the existing MWC footprint than far eastern Dakotas. Both MT schools have proven success in football and both stadiums are above the minimum for FBS. MT is already at 25k (and averaged 22.5k fans in 2019) and MSU is at 20.7k (averaged 17.2k in 2019). Idk if Wa-Griz has potential for expansion, but just from looking at it on google maps, it looks like MSU could add quite a bit if seating if they wanted to. I know Missoula and Bozeman aren't huge metro markets themselves, but if you have both, you're going to essentially be adding all of Montana as a "market". They both have small commercial airports nearby, so getting in and out shouldn't be hard for teams flying.

[BearDownMU]

Wofford being a private school, you may not be aware of the funding issues for athletic facilities. I can't speak to North Dakota (though it sounds similar from comments), but in Montana public funds aren't really used for athletics. Athletic facility improvements generally come from increases to student fees or from fundraising drives. MSU has built so many new buildings and residence halls on campus since I left in 2004 that the campus is almost unrecognizable. But our stadium expansion and newly opened Bobcat Athletic Complex was funded by donations and ticket/athletics related revenue. While football may cover their costs and then some, the excess doesn't go into a capital projects fund for further expansion; it goes to funding all the OTHER sports that lose money. There isn't some massive athletic department net income every year that could be socked away.

Wait, what? Private schools don't have any public funds for anything. You at least get state funding for academic and general operation. Private schools only available money is income from endowment, fundraising, and (to a small degree) tuition. There is the occasional state assistance for specific programs (for example, the state of Georgia gives money to Mercer's Med School for assist in it's mission of putting GP docs in underserved rural areas). So we are funding, basically, all the same things a public school is funding without any significant state investment. If anything, that makes it harder, not easier. Now, perhaps the bureaucracy is less involved, because privates don't have to get approvals through State Board of Regents for example, but we have to raise money for everything just the same. Usually with a much smaller alumni base.

[MSUBobcat]

Wouldn't it be just as likely that they'd invite Montana and Montana State. It's a bit closer to the existing MWC footprint than far eastern Dakotas. Both MT schools have proven success in football and both stadiums are above the minimum for FBS. MT is already at 25k (and averaged 22.5k fans in 2019) and MSU is at 20.7k (averaged 17.2k in 2019). Idk if Wa-Griz has potential for expansion, but just from looking at it on google maps, it looks like MSU could add quite a bit if seating if they wanted to. I know Missoula and Bozeman aren't huge metro markets themselves, but if you have both, you're going to essentially be adding all of Montana as a "market". They both have small commercial airports nearby, so getting in and out shouldn't be hard for teams flying.

I think that would be much more likely than inviting 2 plains state teams to the Mountain West. Reunite with former Big Sky foes Boise St. and Nevada, plus the natural "border war" rivalry with WY that exists. Move New Mexico to the West Division and the geographical footprints of each division isn't terrible, at least by Western standards where 300-400 miles is barely an overnight trip. SDSU to WY is the closest possible game if the Dakota schools were to go to MWC, and that's nearly 700 miles. Both UM and MSU would have a potential bus-trip (<400 miles) in the division (Missoula to Boise, 364mi and Bozeman to Logan, UT) and 2 more that are slightly longer, but probably not bus trips (flip flop the previous 2 trips and both are about 475mi). Being major tourism hubs, both have quality airports

[MSUBobcat]

Wait, what? Private schools don't have any public funds for anything. You at least get state funding for academic and general operation. Private schools only available money is income from endowment, fundraising, and (to a small degree) tuition. There is the occasional state assistance for specific programs (for example, the state of Georgia gives money to Mercer's Med School for assist in it's mission of putting GP docs in underserved rural areas). So we are funding, basically, all the same things a public school is funding without any significant state investment. If anything, that makes it harder, not easier. Now, perhaps the bureaucracy is less involved, because privates don't have to get approvals through State Board of Regents for example, but we have to raise money for everything just the same. Usually with a much smaller alumni base.

I'm aware that private schools don't have any public funding. There's a reason why public universities are much cheaper than the average private school. What I'm saying is that they don't get to use public funding to build athletic facilities, so they aren't in any better position to just "build a $100M (low-ball) stadium" because they've had success and sell out the football games. As big as football may be to a school like NDSU (or Montana/Montana State, etc.), that goes to offset the losses of all the other sports, leaving very little leftover to save for future athletic facilities, much less a major capital project like a new stadium (indoor or outdoor). That isn't NDSU's athletic department being shortsighted or "inept". It's just the reality. Maybe donors come out of the woodwork to fund a $200M arena for NDSU if they announce they're going FBS. But without major donors, to blame NDSU not getting a new football stadium on the athletic department is off the mark.

[ST_Lawson]

I think that would be much more likely than inviting 2 plains state teams to the Mountain West...

That was actually what I was thinking, but I didn't want to presume I knew more about the situation out there than some of you guys with "front row seats". From my perspective over here in the midwest, I'd think MT/MSU make a lot more sense to the MWC than NDSU/SDSU.

It's not really that big of an issue, but you'd also have the MWC (other than Hawaii) contained within Mountain and Pacific time zones, which probably makes things a little bit easier in terms of scheduling and communication.

[MSUBobcat]

That was actually what I was thinking, but I didn't want to presume I knew more about the situation out there than some of you guys with "front row seats". From my perspective over here in the midwest, I'd think MT/MSU make a lot more sense to the MWC than NDSU/SDSU.

It's not really that big of an issue, but you'd also have the MWC (other than Hawaii) contained within Mountain and Pacific time zones, which probably makes things a little bit easier in terms of scheduling and communication.

Make more sense, yes. Which is why it won't happen xlolx. I don't even want to go FBS just to keep up with the Joneses. But it's appearing more and more like the semi-pro P5 are going to leave the NCAA behind and the G5 will be left to do their own thing. I'd like to continue to be competing in the second tier of football. With the current support both have from the schools and the fanbase, both could be competitive in the G5 in short order, I'd like to think. Or we become Idaho and go back to the Big Sky with our tail between our legs. xdrunkyx

[Mfergy4]

I was referring to reasonable in relation to what's happening on Bisonville right now and you have been reasonable as well. I enjoy both Bisonville and AGS but I will be enjoying less of Bisonville until the realignment talk settles down. There's a very vocal bunch of Bison fans who view NDSU AD Matt Larsen somewhere between Calvin Coolidge and Bernie Madoff that are making that board intolerable right now. Good thing the Bison don't have a big game this week to talk about or anything...

Reading all remarks in this thread and I see the same thought patterns, moving to the FBS to an established conference. Now I am no where close in knowledge as all you great prognosticators are, serious statement, so do not beat me to mince meat with this out of the box thought.

Just Like NDSU and SDSU did when they jumped to the FCS Division 1 level. Start a FBS North Land Conference, invite the following, NDSU, SDSU, UNI, MoSt, Montana, Montana St, UND, and USD. That's is 8 teams. I see this group as great competitive group going forward. All the teams are familiar with each other in aspect of competition and facilities. I see UND as having to make bigger strides in their facilities and they face the same funding challenges from the ND Higher Ed as does NDSU. The geographical footprint would be a money saver to all. Thus the reason I left out a couple of MVFC & Big Sky schools out of the discussion.

I would like to hear the PRO's and CON's of this thought.

[Professor Chaos]

Reading all remarks in this thread and I see the same thought patterns, moving to the FBS to an established conference. Now I am no where close in knowledge as all you great prognosticators are, serious statement, so do not beat me to mince meat with this out of the box thought.

Just Like NDSU and SDSU did when they jumped to the FCS Division 1 level. Start a FBS North Land Conference, invite the following, NDSU, SDSU, UNI, MoSt, Montana, Montana St, UND, and USD. That's is 8 teams. I see this group as great competitive group going forward. All the teams are familiar with each other in aspect of competition and facilities. I see UND as having to make bigger strides in their facilities and they face the same funding challenges from the ND Higher Ed as does NDSU. The geographical footprint would be a money saver to all. Thus the reason I left out a couple of MVFC & Big Sky schools out of the discussion.

I would like to hear the PRO's and CON's of this thought.
I would be very happy if that level of coordination could/would occur amongst those schools. One problem is I don't think UNI or Missouri St would go for it because that would be a downgrade in basketball and it seems like basketball drives the athletics bus for both of them. The other issue is how to create the conference. The NCAA won't allow a newly formed conference to classify as FBS (or so I've heard) so the only approach is to join an existing conference or join a conference that has already sponsored FBS/1A football at one point in it's history but doesn't any longer so they could re-create it again. I believe is one of the goals of the new WAC. The MVC sponsored 1Afootball (in some weird hybrid 1A/1AA league) from 1978-1785 but the MVC is a basketball league with a delicate mix of public and private schools so I doubt they'd be willing to invite enough football playing public schools to get to the 8 all-sports members they'd need.

The most plausible solution would to build a northern tier of CUSA... maybe the 4 Dakota schools, 2 Montana schools, and Idaho? But that would be a lot of cars in that train to get moving at once.

[Mfergy4]

I would be very happy if that level of coordination could/would occur amongst those schools. One problem is I don't think UNI or Missouri St would go for it because that would be a downgrade in basketball and it seems like basketball drives the athletics bus for both of them. The other issue is how to create the conference. The NCAA won't allow a newly formed conference to classify as FBS (or so I've heard) so the only approach is to join an existing conference or join a conference that has already sponsored FBS/1A football at one point in it's history but doesn't any longer so they could re-create it again. I believe is one of the goals of the new WAC. The MVC sponsored 1Afootball (in some weird hybrid 1A/1AA league) from 1978-1785 but the MVC is a basketball league with a delicate mix of public and private schools so I doubt they'd be willing to invite enough football playing public schools to get to the 8 all-sports members they'd need.

The most plausible solution would to build a northern tier of CUSA... maybe the 4 Dakota schools, 2 Montana schools, and Idaho? But that would be a lot of cars in that train to get moving at once.

Thank you for the insight. But it sounds like there might be a plausible idea floating around out there but that it would take lots of coordination for it to come to life.

[MSUDuo]

MO State goes only if WKU and MTSU stick around

[WestCoastAggie]

I would be very happy if that level of coordination could/would occur amongst those schools. One problem is I don't think UNI or Missouri St would go for it because that would be a downgrade in basketball and it seems like basketball drives the athletics bus for both of them. The other issue is how to create the conference. The NCAA won't allow a newly formed conference to classify as FBS (or so I've heard) so the only approach is to join an existing conference or join a conference that has already sponsored FBS/1A football at one point in it's history but doesn't any longer so they could re-create it again. I believe is one of the goals of the new WAC. The MVC sponsored 1Afootball (in some weird hybrid 1A/1AA league) from 1978-1785 but the MVC is a basketball league with a delicate mix of public and private schools so I doubt they'd be willing to invite enough football playing public schools to get to the 8 all-sports members they'd need.

The most plausible solution would to build a northern tier of CUSA... maybe the 4 Dakota schools, 2 Montana schools, and Idaho? But that would be a lot of cars in that train to get moving at once.

It would also make sense if C-USA also looks at building a partnership of some kind with a group of schools. Or, even a conference like the MVC/MVFC/Summit or SWAC.

[MSUBobcat]

I would be very happy if that level of coordination could/would occur amongst those schools. One problem is I don't think UNI or Missouri St would go for it because that would be a downgrade in basketball and it seems like basketball drives the athletics bus for both of them. The other issue is how to create the conference. The NCAA won't allow a newly formed conference to classify as FBS (or so I've heard) so the only approach is to join an existing conference or join a conference that has already sponsored FBS/1A football at one point in it's history but doesn't any longer so they could re-create it again. I believe is one of the goals of the new WAC. The MVC sponsored 1Afootball (in some weird hybrid 1A/1AA league) from 1978-1785 but the MVC is a basketball league with a delicate mix of public and private schools so I doubt they'd be willing to invite enough football playing public schools to get to the 8 all-sports members they'd need.

The most plausible solution would to build a northern tier of CUSA... maybe the 4 Dakota schools, 2 Montana schools, and Idaho? But that would be a lot of cars in that train to get moving at once.

Admittedly, I don't give many $h!ts about basketball, but... why is basketball such a big driver for them? Do they have large attendance numbers? It doesn't really appear to be "success" driven from what I see on wiki (I confirmed nothing!). UNI's men have... some success, winning March Madness games in 1990, 2010 (2 games), 2015 and 2016, even getting a 5 seed once. Their women's team has never advanced past the first round in their 3 appearances. Mo St. men have been even less successful, winning 1 game in 1987 and 2 in 1999 (all as SW Missouri State) and haven't made an appearance this millennium. Missouri State's women seem to be the most successful of the bunch with 2 straight Sweet 16's and even a Final 4 in 2001, but... women's basketball is far from the money machine that men's is. Other than MSU women's success, how is winning the hypothetical "Northland Conference" auto-bid and getting bounced in Round 1 any different than winning the MVC auto-bid and getting bounced? Since 2000, those other 3 have combined for 10 total tournament appearances and 5 wins. Gotta be attendance, right? xdontknowx

[JacksFan40]

North Dakota State to USports football (Canada) confirmed. Travel to Manitoba and Regina have got to be better than to FIU and UTEP.



Wouldn't it be just as likely that they'd invite Montana and Montana State. It's a bit closer to the existing MWC footprint than far eastern Dakotas. Both MT schools have proven success in football and both stadiums are above the minimum for FBS. MT is already at 25k (and averaged 22.5k fans in 2019) and MSU is at 20.7k (averaged 17.2k in 2019). Idk if Wa-Griz has potential for expansion, but just from looking at it on google maps, it looks like MSU could add quite a bit if seating if they wanted to. I know Missoula and Bozeman aren't huge metro markets themselves, but if you have both, you're going to essentially be adding all of Montana as a "market". They both have small commercial airports nearby, so getting in and out shouldn't be hard for teams flying.
I was just pointing out a possibility. Inviting the Montana schools would likely require giving them full membership, whereas the xDSU’s could join as football only members, while remaining in the Summit for other sports. So it comes down to what the MWC wants if they lose Boise and someone else.

Another huge reason to jump to FBS is that getting into a conference like the MWC gives SDSU and NDSU access to the California market. When Colorado jumped to the PAC-12 they saw a huge boost in enrollment from California students as their University was now being advertised in California due to being in the conference with UCLA, USC, and Stanford. The MWC has Fresno, San Diego, and San Jose which would be great markets to get into.

[Reign of Terrier]

Admittedly, I don't give many $h!ts about basketball, but... why is basketball such a big driver for them? Do they have large attendance numbers? It doesn't really appear to be "success" driven from what I see on wiki (I confirmed nothing!). UNI's men have... some success, winning March Madness games in 1990, 2010 (2 games), 2015 and 2016, even getting a 5 seed once. Their women's team has never advanced past the first round in their 3 appearances. Mo St. men have been even less successful, winning 1 game in 1987 and 2 in 1999 (all as SW Missouri State) and haven't made an appearance this millennium. Missouri State's women seem to be the most successful of the bunch with 2 straight Sweet 16's and even a Final 4 in 2001, but... women's basketball is far from the money machine that men's is. Other than MSU women's success, how is winning the hypothetical "Northland Conference" auto-bid and getting bounced in Round 1 any different than winning the MVC auto-bid and getting bounced? Since 2000, those other 3 have combined for 10 total tournament appearances and 5 wins. Gotta be attendance, right? xdontknowx

The short answer is that March Madness makes a bunch of money and if you're a midmajor program, has a tremendous ROI if you're in a good enough conference.

I don't know the specific payouts, but if you get two teams into the tourney, *everyone in the conference* gets a higher payout (as distributed by the conference) relative to just one team getting in. And if you win a game with only one team in the tourney, the payout is basically the same as if you got two teams in. And if you get two teams and they each get a game in, etc.

The calculus of UNI and basketball-oriented schools is that your football conference arrangement may make money, but it doesn't have the same ROI as basketball, at least not at the G5/"mid major level". The MVC from what I hear is a really good basketball conference (I only pay attention to my own team's conference so I'm not as knowledgeable:D). So, hypothetically and using numbers I pulled out of my ass, UNI could be making a couple hundred thousand dollars less each year from basketball with a new football conference. Maybe at minimum.

Someone can correct me on the specifics of those numbers, but that's the basic logic: you get money by your conference affiliation, money for winning, and money from your conference winning in the tournament. It's a very powerful financial incentive and one of the rumored reasons why Chattanooga didn't leave the Socon for the ASUN (the Socon's RPI in basketball was in the top 10 for the last COVID season while the ASUN was bottom 10). Speaking for the Socon right now, part of the reason why they're so stable (relatively speaking) right now is because no non-power-five conference has both and equal-or-better basketball arrangement,while also playing football, in a manner that would minimizes travel costs.

UNI probably has a slightly different calculus (but basketball=$$$ is one of the common variables), but it has more in common than different. I hope that is correct and or helps!

[F'N Hawks]

I was just pointing out a possibility. Inviting the Montana schools would likely require giving them full membership, whereas the xDSU’s could join as football only members, while remaining in the Summit for other sports. So it comes down to what the MWC wants if they lose Boise and someone else.

Another huge reason to jump to FBS is that getting into a conference like the MWC gives SDSU and NDSU access to the California market. When Colorado jumped to the PAC-12 they saw a huge boost in enrollment from California students as their University was now being advertised in California due to being in the conference with UCLA, USC, and Stanford. The MWC has Fresno, San Diego, and San Jose which would be great markets to get into.

You want access to the California market in SD?

[NY Crusader 2010]

I would be very happy if that level of coordination could/would occur amongst those schools. One problem is I don't think UNI or Missouri St would go for it because that would be a downgrade in basketball and it seems like basketball drives the athletics bus for both of them. The other issue is how to create the conference. The NCAA won't allow a newly formed conference to classify as FBS (or so I've heard) so the only approach is to join an existing conference or join a conference that has already sponsored FBS/1A football at one point in it's history but doesn't any longer so they could re-create it again. I believe is one of the goals of the new WAC. The MVC sponsored 1Afootball (in some weird hybrid 1A/1AA league) from 1978-1785 but the MVC is a basketball league with a delicate mix of public and private schools so I doubt they'd be willing to invite enough football playing public schools to get to the 8 all-sports members they'd need.

The most plausible solution would to build a northern tier of CUSA... maybe the 4 Dakota schools, 2 Montana schools, and Idaho? But that would be a lot of cars in that train to get moving at once.

This could definitely work => consider a 7 team Mountain Division with UTEP, NMSU, Montana, Montana State, Idaho, NDSU and SDSU. Just would take a lot of schools ready, willing and able to make the jump at once.

[Professor Chaos]

This could definitely work => consider a 7 team Mountain Division with UTEP, NMSU, Montana, Montana State, Idaho, NDSU and SDSU. Just would take a lot of schools ready, willing and able to make the jump at once.
I get the feeling the states of ND and SD will give pushback to the XDSUs if the UXDs aren't included also (unless they're not interested like they weren't during the initial D1 move that the XDSUs made). It would be a lot easier to make the FBS jump for NDSU and SDSU with the backing of their respective states. I kinda doubt UTEP and NMSU would be big fans of that configuration anyway. I would think they'd prefer to stick with the southern schools like SHSU, La Tech, JSU, and FIU

[Professor Chaos]

The short answer is that March Madness makes a bunch of money and if you're a midmajor program, has a tremendous ROI if you're in a good enough conference.

I don't know the specific payouts, but if you get two teams into the tourney, *everyone in the conference* gets a higher payout (as distributed by the conference) relative to just one team getting in. And if you win a game with only one team in the tourney, the payout is basically the same as if you got two teams in. And if you get two teams and they each get a game in, etc.

The calculus of UNI and basketball-oriented schools is that your football conference arrangement may make money, but it doesn't have the same ROI as basketball, at least not at the G5/"mid major level". The MVC from what I hear is a really good basketball conference (I only pay attention to my own team's conference so I'm not as knowledgeable:D). So, hypothetically and using numbers I pulled out of my ass, UNI could be making a couple hundred thousand dollars less each year from basketball with a new football conference. Maybe at minimum.

Someone can correct me on the specifics of those numbers, but that's the basic logic: you get money by your conference affiliation, money for winning, and money from your conference winning in the tournament. It's a very powerful financial incentive and one of the rumored reasons why Chattanooga didn't leave the Socon for the ASUN (the Socon's RPI in basketball was in the top 10 for the last COVID season while the ASUN was bottom 10). Speaking for the Socon right now, part of the reason why they're so stable (relatively speaking) right now is because no non-power-five conference has both and equal-or-better basketball arrangement,while also playing football, in a manner that would minimizes travel costs.

UNI probably has a slightly different calculus (but basketball=$$$ is one of the common variables), but it has more in common than different. I hope that is correct and or helps!
That's pretty much it. Each tournament game a team plays in generates a "unit" for that teams conference. Those units were worth north or $300K each for the 2021 tourney and they're not only paid out that year but for the next 5 years to the conference so it can really add up if you're putting multiple teams or getting multiple wins in the tournament each year as a mid-major. Good breakdown from Forbes on it here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh/2021/02/28/ncaa-has-confirmed-its-basketball-revenue-distribution-plan-for-2021-but-impact-of-2020-will-last/?sh=a94fe43391a4

There's a graphic about half way down the page of this 2014 article that breaks down the percentage of total revenue each conference gets from the NCAA tourney TV contract pay out: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/ncaa-money/. For the MVC (in 2014) that was 36% of the conference revenue ($3.2M out of $8.8M). For the Big Sky it was 17% ($1.5M out of $8.6M). Conferences don't have to divvy that money out equally but they usually do I believe unless a schools is transitioning in or out.

In general I'm pretty sure football is a money loser for most FCS schools (and G5 schools for that matter) so they rely on men's basketball more than football to pay the athletic bills across the rest of the department therefore that's where their priorities are when it comes to conference realignment.

[clenz]

Clenz -

Where do you see UNI ending up in all of this? I'm just curious as I think the Dakotas and UNI are just as able to make these same moves to the G5 but we'd have to do it together due to geographic issues. We're all just on an island out here.

I mean, we're talking about Tarleton freaking State to the FBS ahead of established FCS Valley schools. This is getting kind of ridiculous.
I don't know. I genuinely mean that.

You are right, and it's something I've been mentally debating in my head recently. Is the idea of giving up MVC basketball/can a league be formed to make sure UNI is protected from being left behind that would be close enough to the Valley for basketball to make it work. There are "pie in the sky" ideas thrown around that I've accepted as being good enough, but chances of them happening are about zero.

The first is the MVC deals with football and uses the grandfather clause to take football back from the Gateway/MVFC. Need 8 full time members - UNI, SIU, ISUR, ISUB, MOSU, MUSU and then deal with it and bring the DSU's along as full time members. Affiliate YSU for 9 and just ****ing deal with it. Even better is the idea of FBS football gets Drake to not be complete butt hurt diaper babies and gets them to reinvest back to the 1A level and we can leave YSU out of it completely.

The other is to just have UNI break off from the Valley and join the 4 Dakota's, Montana, Montana State, Missouri State to get the 8 minimum and then see if SIU, ISUr, or someone like SFA/UCA wants to tag along

Neither of those are good options, neither will happen.

As for what UNI does? Now isn't a great time to ask mexlolx. I am VERY down on our athletic department right now. Reasons I won't get into here but they are very easy to spot if you take a look at Panther Nation. Every thread is about/turns into a session of "What they did wrong this time". To put it simply, I don't trust our athletic director. I don't think he's good at his job. He's been in place for 4 or 5 years now and just signed a new contract through 2026. I genuinely believe he was put in place by the Iowa BOR to help kill off UNI to the point of just making UNI a something like UI-Cedar Falls.

The discussion about NDSU being "hated" by legislation in ND is funny to me as a UNI fan in Iowa. Last night, as I was doing the numbers for ASU, GSU, CCU, and NDSU I decided to look at UNI and it's ugly and you can see how the state of Iowa has tried to kill (and honestly has been successful at it) UNI.

Between 2010 and 2019 numbers the state has increased funding to the academic side of the University of Iowa 12%. If you account for inflation that is 2% growth in budget. That doesn't sound big, but just hold on. Their athletic budget is up 72% over that time - 56% after inflation.

It gets even better when you look at Iowa State - Academically Iowa State has been given a 33% budget increase - 21% after inflation. Athletically, get ready for this, a 104% increase - or a meager 85% after inflation is taken into account.

Want to see how the state of Iowa has treated UNI?

Between 2010 and 2019 UNI was given a massive 1% budget increase to the academic side of things. After inflation our budget is actually 8% lower than it would have been in 2010. The median across the FCS for budget increase over that same time is 23%. Somehow UNI is still above average, but it's closing in on being middle of the road. If we look at athletics is up only 23% - FCS average is up 59%. Once again, still above average at UNI but not by much. If we adjust for inflation UNI is up 12% to the FCS at 45%.


It's why i really don't want to hear the crying from almost any school going "Our state hates us and doesn't fund us" as they get 90% budget increases. The Iowa BOR forced UNI to close programs/not start programs they planned on because the BOR has a rule about duplication of certain majors between the 3 states schools. Namely UNI wasn't/hasn't been allowed to create a larger software/computer science/engineering program because "Iowa State is the engineering school". That rule went out the window when Iowa State decided it wanted to expand their business and education programs (which is what UNI is known for). Then the BOR went "Yeah, do whatever you want".


I think we could "recreate the NCC" to an extend at the FBS level, I just don't think that it will happen because of politics.

[clenz]

The short answer is that March Madness makes a bunch of money and if you're a midmajor program, has a tremendous ROI if you're in a good enough conference.

I don't know the specific payouts, but if you get two teams into the tourney, *everyone in the conference* gets a higher payout (as distributed by the conference) relative to just one team getting in. And if you win a game with only one team in the tourney, the payout is basically the same as if you got two teams in. And if you get two teams and they each get a game in, etc.

The calculus of UNI and basketball-oriented schools is that your football conference arrangement may make money, but it doesn't have the same ROI as basketball, at least not at the G5/"mid major level". The MVC from what I hear is a really good basketball conference (I only pay attention to my own team's conference so I'm not as knowledgeable:D). So, hypothetically and using numbers I pulled out of my ass, UNI could be making a couple hundred thousand dollars less each year from basketball with a new football conference. Maybe at minimum.

Someone can correct me on the specifics of those numbers, but that's the basic logic: you get money by your conference affiliation, money for winning, and money from your conference winning in the tournament. It's a very powerful financial incentive and one of the rumored reasons why Chattanooga didn't leave the Socon for the ASUN (the Socon's RPI in basketball was in the top 10 for the last COVID season while the ASUN was bottom 10). Speaking for the Socon right now, part of the reason why they're so stable (relatively speaking) right now is because no non-power-five conference has both and equal-or-better basketball arrangement,while also playing football, in a manner that would minimizes travel costs.

UNI probably has a slightly different calculus (but basketball=$$$ is one of the common variables), but it has more in common than different. I hope that is correct and or helps!
This is why getting UNI to actually leave the Valley will be damn near impossible. There was a small opening around 09-11 where the MAC was very openly flirting with adding UNI but leaving the Valley for the MAC in all other sports just wasn't going to work financially.

The Valley has been "down" for a couple years but has completely rebuilt, and might be stronger than it has been since it got 5 bids in 2006. By "down" I mean the league has gone form finishing 7th-10th nationally to 11th or 12th. I think one year we finished 13th nationally in conference RPI. Last season, IIRC, we were back to 8 or something like that. UNI would take a fairly substantial financial loss giving up the Valley basketball shares. Especially moving forward as it looks like the Valley could be a 3 or 4 bid league this year again with 5 of our 10 teams in the top 100 preseason.

I've said it for years - outside of the p5 and a select few G5s basketball is where the money comes from. Football might break even or make a little big. The ROI is going to come from basketball. Especially if you want a conference like the MWC to look at you. The MWC is a football league but has a very heavy basketball baseline. Their average budgets, coaches salaries, facilities, etc. are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than even most of the MVC. To think you're getting into that league with a 1.5 million dollar basketball budget and paying a HC 250k is like thinking your FCS football team is going to get an invite to the new look B12.

[ST_Lawson]

Between 2010 and 2019 UNI was given a massive 1% budget increase to the academic side of things. After inflation our budget is actually 8% lower than it would have been in 2010. The median across the FCS for budget increase over that same time is 23%. Somehow UNI is still above average, but it's closing in on being middle of the road. If we look at athletics is up only 23% - FCS average is up 59%. Once again, still above average at UNI but not by much. If we adjust for inflation UNI is up 12% to the FCS at 45%.

Not to derail the thread too much, but...what's an increase?

From 2002 (our high point) to 2020, WIU has received 22% less from the state...that's not inflation adjusted. You adjust for inflation it's 46.4% less since 2002.
If you go from 2010 to 2020, it's a 17.2% decrease, inflation adjusted it's 26.1% decrease.

If Iowa is "trying to kill" UNI...what's would you call what's happening to WIU?

[clenz]

Not to derail the thread too much, but...what's an increase?

From 2002 (our high point) to 2020, WIU has received 22% less from the state...that's not inflation adjusted. You adjust for inflation it's 46.4% less since 2002.
If you go from 2010 to 2020, it's a 17.2% decrease, inflation adjusted it's 26.1% decrease.

If Iowa is "trying to kill" UNI...what's would you call what's happening to WIU?
Illinois is a completely different mess in about 1000 different ways.

WIU is dead. The plug just hasn't been pulled yet.

[Houndawg]

Illinois is a completely different mess in about 1000 different ways.

WIU is dead. The plug just hasn't been pulled yet.

SIUC is probably about five years behind WIU. Its been all downhill since the decision to get rid of the party-school image.

[gokat89]

Sam Houston and Jacksonville State likely to join CUSA…

Hate this ****. ****ing hate it. Hope it blows up in our faces or something falls through. Pathetic.

per McMurphy btw. As credible as it gets.

Sam Houston is no where near ready for FBS. Bowers Stadium needs major upgrades. The SH Athletic Director is weak at soliciting donors... always has been. The students just voted down a fee increase last week and the attendance would need to see a major jump before considering. Oh, and Keeler has stated MANY times that he loves the FCS and the playoff system.

I dont see this happening with the addition of McNeese and UIW to the WAC.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Sam Houston is no where near ready for FBS. Bowers Stadium needs major upgrades. The SH Athletic Director is weak at soliciting donors... always has been. The students just voted down a fee increase last week and the attendance would need to see a major jump before considering. Oh, and Keeler has stated MANY times that he loves the FCS and the playoff system.

I dont see this happening with the addition of McNeese and UIW to the WAC.

I hope not.

[BEAR]

Sam Houston is no where near ready for FBS. Bowers Stadium needs major upgrades. The SH Athletic Director is weak at soliciting donors... always has been. The students just voted down a fee increase last week and the attendance would need to see a major jump before considering. Oh, and Keeler has stated MANY times that he loves the FCS and the playoff system.

I dont see this happening with the addition of McNeese and UIW to the WAC.

That leaves like 3 teams in the ASUN???

Oh yeah...that statement above applies to one particular ASUN team also... "UCA is no where near ready for FBS. Estes Stadium needs major upgrades. The UCA Athletic Director is weak at soliciting donors... always has been. The students just voted down a fee increase last week and the attendance would need to see a major jump before considering. Oh, and Brown has stated MANY times that he loves the FCS and the playoff system." xlolx

[Yote 53]

I don't know. I genuinely mean that.

You are right, and it's something I've been mentally debating in my head recently. Is the idea of giving up MVC basketball/can a league be formed to make sure UNI is protected from being left behind that would be close enough to the Valley for basketball to make it work. There are "pie in the sky" ideas thrown around that I've accepted as being good enough, but chances of them happening are about zero.

The first is the MVC deals with football and uses the grandfather clause to take football back from the Gateway/MVFC. Need 8 full time members - UNI, SIU, ISUR, ISUB, MOSU, MUSU and then deal with it and bring the DSU's along as full time members. Affiliate YSU for 9 and just ****ing deal with it. Even better is the idea of FBS football gets Drake to not be complete butt hurt diaper babies and gets them to reinvest back to the 1A level and we can leave YSU out of it completely.

The other is to just have UNI break off from the Valley and join the 4 Dakota's, Montana, Montana State, Missouri State to get the 8 minimum and then see if SIU, ISUr, or someone like SFA/UCA wants to tag along

Neither of those are good options, neither will happen.

As for what UNI does? Now isn't a great time to ask mexlolx. I am VERY down on our athletic department right now. Reasons I won't get into here but they are very easy to spot if you take a look at Panther Nation. Every thread is about/turns into a session of "What they did wrong this time". To put it simply, I don't trust our athletic director. I don't think he's good at his job. He's been in place for 4 or 5 years now and just signed a new contract through 2026. I genuinely believe he was put in place by the Iowa BOR to help kill off UNI to the point of just making UNI a something like UI-Cedar Falls.

The discussion about NDSU being "hated" by legislation in ND is funny to me as a UNI fan in Iowa. Last night, as I was doing the numbers for ASU, GSU, CCU, and NDSU I decided to look at UNI and it's ugly and you can see how the state of Iowa has tried to kill (and honestly has been successful at it) UNI.

Between 2010 and 2019 numbers the state has increased funding to the academic side of the University of Iowa 12%. If you account for inflation that is 2% growth in budget. That doesn't sound big, but just hold on. Their athletic budget is up 72% over that time - 56% after inflation.

It gets even better when you look at Iowa State - Academically Iowa State has been given a 33% budget increase - 21% after inflation. Athletically, get ready for this, a 104% increase - or a meager 85% after inflation is taken into account.

Want to see how the state of Iowa has treated UNI?

Between 2010 and 2019 UNI was given a massive 1% budget increase to the academic side of things. After inflation our budget is actually 8% lower than it would have been in 2010. The median across the FCS for budget increase over that same time is 23%. Somehow UNI is still above average, but it's closing in on being middle of the road. If we look at athletics is up only 23% - FCS average is up 59%. Once again, still above average at UNI but not by much. If we adjust for inflation UNI is up 12% to the FCS at 45%.


It's why i really don't want to hear the crying from almost any school going "Our state hates us and doesn't fund us" as they get 90% budget increases. The Iowa BOR forced UNI to close programs/not start programs they planned on because the BOR has a rule about duplication of certain majors between the 3 states schools. Namely UNI wasn't/hasn't been allowed to create a larger software/computer science/engineering program because "Iowa State is the engineering school". That rule went out the window when Iowa State decided it wanted to expand their business and education programs (which is what UNI is known for). Then the BOR went "Yeah, do whatever you want".


I think we could "recreate the NCC" to an extend at the FBS level, I just don't think that it will happen because of politics.

Yeah. I hear you. I don't think the State will ever allow UNI to move to G5. You'd be flying too close to Iowa and Iowa State, especially Iowa State. The Iowa legislature and Gov. Kimmy are mostly ISU honks and with the Big 12 relegation on the horizon, well, they wouldn't allow UNI to play at the same G-conference level as ISU.

[MSUBobcat]

Thanks to Reign, PC and Clenz for informing me about the basketball finances. I honestly didn't even know the MVC was that good of a basketball conference. I figured it was a one, sometimes two, bid league. I had no idea that it was typically a top 8-10 conference. That definitely changes the calculus. I basically watch 0 basketball, then fill out a bracket or 2 based on the little blurb that ESPN gives about each team and.... I'm generally out of contention in my pools by the Elite Eight at best, more likely the Sweet Sixteen. xlolx

[Mfergy4]

Reading all remarks in this thread and I see the same thought patterns, moving to the FBS to an established conference. Now I am no where close in knowledge as all you great prognosticators are, serious statement, so do not beat me to mince meat with this out of the box thought.

Just Like NDSU and SDSU did when they jumped to the FCS Division 1 level. Start a FBS North Land Conference, invite the following, NDSU, SDSU, UNI, MoSt, Montana, Montana St, UND, and USD. That's is 8 teams. I see this group as great competitive group going forward. All the teams are familiar with each other in aspect of competition and facilities. I see UND as having to make bigger strides in their facilities and they face the same funding challenges from the ND Higher Ed as does NDSU. The geographical footprint would be a money saver to all. Thus the reason I left out a couple of MVFC & Big Sky schools out of the discussion.

I would like to hear the PRO's and CON's of this thought.

That was a wildly entertaining discourse on the possibilities and basketball finance impacts to decision making. Thank you Chaos, Bobcat, Duo, Jacks Fan40, Reign, Clenz, and St Lawrence for the insight you provided.

[ntxgamecock]

According to Clenz, they will need to raise Grass’s salary to a million a year or maybe as a means to cut costs, JSU will just keep him. Can’t hire a new guy without the big bucks.

On the bright side, Grass is 2-1 against FBS schools in the last 12 months. I think he may only have 2 wins in the FCS outside of the OVC during that same time.


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[katss07]

On the bright side, Grass is 2-1 against FBS schools in the last 12 months. I think he may only have 2 wins in the FCS outside of the OVC during that same time.


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One of which being Davidson. Granted, a pretty damn good team. But still, non-scholly PFL school Davidson.

[Reign of Terrier]

Thanks to Reign, PC and Clenz for informing me about the basketball finances. I honestly didn't even know the MVC was that good of a basketball conference. I figured it was a one, sometimes two, bid league. I had no idea that it was typically a top 8-10 conference. That definitely changes the calculus. I basically watch 0 basketball, then fill out a bracket or 2 based on the little blurb that ESPN gives about each team and.... I'm generally out of contention in my pools by the Elite Eight at best, more likely the Sweet Sixteen. xlolx


That was a wildly entertaining discourse on the possibilities and basketball finance impacts to decision making. Thank you Chaos, Bobcat, Duo, Jacks Fan40, Reign, Clenz, and St Lawrence for the insight you provided.

In the vein of how this effects FCS football, the biggest irony is that the Socon will probably persevere through this realignment 80% because they have a good basketball conference. It's not as good as the MVC, but it's basically, in my view, the only reason why Chattanooga hasn't left yet. If Chattanooga leaves the conference, it will be for an FBS conference, and though it's unlikely, I would be surprised if they lobby C-USA right now. But other than that, the Socon is thick as thieves, may even pillage the southern CAA teams. And if that doesn't happen, they'll probably invite Campbell.

Long story short, if the southern FCS collapses again, the Socon may emerge as one of the first-next best conferences after the Big Sky/MVFC and it will be almost solelybecause basketball kept us together and or enticed other decent FCS programs to join (rumors include Elon, Richmond, and W&M right now, my money is on us inviting Campbell and A&T if that doesn't work out).

The Socon may not be what it was a decade ago (and I think the 2020s will be kinder than the 2010s), and it's almost exclusively because GSU/App/Elon/CofC/Davidson left and those exit fees went to improving basketball. Now it's possible 2 of those 5 come back, and if that happens I'd say no more than 1/3 of the conference will ever have realistic FBS ambitions (and even then, likely not for a decade or two).

IMO as a total homer I think the current Socon is "peak FCS" in that regard.

[acbearkat]

Don Sanders Stadium and the Bearkat Softball Complex, which are directly behind Bowers Stadium are excellent facilities, and in fact, Sam Houston hosts many Texas high school baseball playoff games at Don Sanders Stadium (get rid of the turf and go back to grass please!). Bowers Stadium needs an upgrade, and there was just recently a capital campaign done by the university in which renovations to Bowers Stadium were supposed to have been involved, but it didn't happen. Bowers isn't bad, it just simply needs an upgrade. I seriously doubt a move to Conference USA is happening. I just don't see Liberty and UConn joining, and even if they do, if New Mexico State, Sam Houston, and Jacksonville State join, you still don't have enough teams for football and the other sports (UConn would a football only member). UTEP doesn't have baseball.

[Mocs123]

I think the two things that kept Chattanooga from leaving the SoCon was the quality of basketball and the stability. The A-Sun looked (and was) tempting, but I think Mark Wharton our AD was concerned about the commitment of some of the programs (mainly JSU and KSU) and was concerned they would jump ship at the first opportunity of what looked like a greener pasture - and of course JSU already has.

I personally don't think Chattanooga is ready to make the jump to FBS financially. I think we struggle to fund our teams at a top tier FCS level, and wouldn't want to go unless I thought we could give our coaches and athletes the tools to be successful.

I also think most of the G5 conferences are quite spread out geographically which doesn't help generate rivalries a really increases travel costs for all sports - most of which already don't make money. I was hoping when re-alignment happened that the Sun Belt and C-USA would "trade teams" to form two geographically compact conferences but that hasn't happened.

To be honest I thought App State, Georgia Southern, and Coastal Carolina all made a mistake when they went FBS, but now they have had success and recognition that they simply weren't going to get in the FCS, so it seems like it was the right move. All at better fan support and funding than Chattanooga though. Would going FBS increase fan support? I don't know but I do know to most Chattanooga's if it's not the SEC it's all "Division 2" and I doubt if the majority of them know the difference between Carson-Newman (D2), Chattanooga (FCS), and Middle Tennessee (G5 FBS).

[walliver]

I think the two things that kept Chattanooga from leaving the SoCon was the quality of basketball and the stability. The A-Sun looked (and was) tempting, but I think Mark Wharton our AD was concerned about the commitment of some of the programs (mainly JSU and KSU) and was concerned they would jump ship at the first opportunity of what looked like a greener pasture - and of course JSU already has.

I personally don't think Chattanooga is ready to make the jump to FBS financially. I think we struggle to fund our teams at a top tier FCS level, and wouldn't want to go unless I thought we could give our coaches and athletes the tools to be successful.

I also think most of the G5 conferences are quite spread out geographically which doesn't help generate rivalries a really increases travel costs for all sports - most of which already don't make money. I was hoping when re-alignment happened that the Sun Belt and C-USA would "trade teams" to form two geographically compact conferences but that hasn't happened.

To be honest I thought App State, Georgia Southern, and Coastal Carolina all made a mistake when they went FBS, but now they have had success and recognition that they simply weren't going to get in the FCS, so it seems like it was the right move. All at better fan support and funding than Chattanooga though. Would going FBS increase fan support? I don't know but I do know to most Chattanooga's if it's not the SEC it's all "Division 2" and I doubt if the majority of them know the difference between Carson-Newman (D2), Chattanooga (FCS), and Middle Tennessee (G5 FBS).

App State has done well. they prepared for the move and had been working on a C-USA bid for years prior to leaving for the Sun Belt.
Georgia Southern, after a very down year in the SoCon, won the Belch the next year, but really rushed their transition and has struggled through a couple of poor coaching choices. They had a chance to go FBS and took it
CCU had a rushed transition and had to be creative to get attendance to 15K. They are doing well with Chadwell, but when he leaves this year or next year, it will be interesting to see how they do. If they aren't winning like they are now, I suspect attendance will drop significantly.
JMU will likely do well since they have been preparing for FBS for years and have very good attendance at FCS level.
Teams moving to C-USA may do well on the scoreboard, but it seems like a risky proposition. Will JSU find Louisiana Tech any more interesting than Tennessee Tech.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I think the two things that kept Chattanooga from leaving the SoCon was the quality of basketball and the stability. The A-Sun looked (and was) tempting, but I think Mark Wharton our AD was concerned about the commitment of some of the programs (mainly JSU and KSU) and was concerned they would jump ship at the first opportunity of what looked like a greener pasture - and of course JSU already has.

I personally don't think Chattanooga is ready to make the jump to FBS financially. I think we struggle to fund our teams at a top tier FCS level, and wouldn't want to go unless I thought we could give our coaches and athletes the tools to be successful.

I also think most of the G5 conferences are quite spread out geographically which doesn't help generate rivalries a really increases travel costs for all sports - most of which already don't make money. I was hoping when re-alignment happened that the Sun Belt and C-USA would "trade teams" to form two geographically compact conferences but that hasn't happened.

To be honest I thought App State, Georgia Southern, and Coastal Carolina all made a mistake when they went FBS, but now they have had success and recognition that they simply weren't going to get in the FCS, so it seems like it was the right move. All at better fan support and funding than Chattanooga though. Would going FBS increase fan support? I don't know but I do know to most Chattanooga's if it's not the SEC it's all "Division 2" and I doubt if the majority of them know the difference between Carson-Newman (D2), Chattanooga (FCS), and Middle Tennessee (G5 FBS).

Not quite but I've been saying for some time that an "Appalachia / interior South" league makes a ton of sense. App State, Marshall, JMU, Liberty, MTSU, WKU, Troy, Georgia Southern, Coastal Carolina, ULL and Arkansas State belong in the same league. And to some extent my prediction happened with Marshall and JMU likely headed to the Sun Belt.

I was surprised that ODU didn't get invited to the AAC given the extent to which they expanded. IMO, adding North Texas and FAU is dumpster diving if you're a league looking to be considered "P6". Especially since the AAC is already in DFW area (SMU) and the state of Florida (USF). I guess the logic is to have a 2nd school in those areas in the event that those two schools get invited to the Big 12 in a subsequent wave of expansion. But you'd think Old Dominion would make more sense given the Norfolk/Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads media market, the fertile HS recruiting soil surrounding that region and the strength of ODU basketball.

[katss07]

Thamel reports Sam Houston and Jacksonville State are gone. Wow.

[Daytripper]

Thamel reports Sam Houston and Jacksonville State are gone. Wow.

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but he is also reporting that McNeese and UIW to the WAC is a done deal.

[BEAR]

Woah! So what happens to the 3 or 4 teams left in the ASUN? xeyebrowx

[Daytripper]

Woah! So what happens to the 3 or 4 teams left in the ASUN? xeyebrowx

Good question.

[atthewbon]

Thamel reports Sam Houston and Jacksonville State are gone. Wow.

https://twitter.com/petethamel/status/1455995106692112384?s=21

Idk if they’re 100% gone yet but they’ve at least been invited.

[Daytripper]

https://twitter.com/petethamel/status/1455995106692112384?s=21 (https://twitter.com/petethamel/status/1455995106692112384?s=21)

Idk if they’re 100% gone yet but they’ve at least been invited.

They have known about that since the beginning. If that was a deal-breaker it wouldn't have gotten this far.

[Professor Chaos]

Woah! So what happens to the 3 or 4 teams left in the ASUN? xeyebrowx
Hopefully they're not expecting an exit fee payment from JSU...


They have known about that since the beginning. If that was a deal-breaker it wouldn't have gotten this far.
I think when McMurphy tweeted it earlier this week it was basically in the bag. Seems like these things tend to stay pretty quiet until it's a practically done deal.

[dgtw]

Woah! So what happens to the 3 or 4 teams left in the ASUN? xeyebrowx

They are back down to three or five, depending on how you count.

Eastern Kentucky and Central Arkansas joined with Jax State this year and are in the WAC alliance for 2021. UNA and Kennesaw State were already in the ASUN and have been Big South affiliates. They were going to join ASUN football when Austin Peay comes on board in 2022.

The ASUN had a big plan to bring in a bunch of football programs and then have the football members split off into their own league using some loophole because they also run a separate conference that is swimming only. The goal was to move to FBS as a group eventually.

The ASUN and Big South have a deal where ASUN members can automatically play BS football. So I guess EKU, UCA, and APSU can go there. This would give the Big South 12 members, with seven who are just affiliates.


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[Cocky]

If WKU goes MAC, EKU maybe in the CUSA soon.

[CockyGeek]

Wow. JSU just killed the OVC and the ASUN. Now we get to go languish in C-USA for 25 years. I'm gonna miss this board.

[Laker]

The latest is that Chicago State is thinking about adding football. They just dropped baseball and got kicked out of the WAC. They have so many other issues to deal with and have small student body numbers. They should be worried about keeping their doors open. Some of these stories are outlandish.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Wow. JSU just killed the OVC and the ASUN. Now we get to go languish in C-USA for 25 years. I'm gonna miss this board.

C-USA would be thrilled to last 25 years....

[dgtw]

The latest is that Chicago State is thinking about adding football. They just dropped baseball and got kicked out of the WAC. They have so many other issues to deal with and have small student body numbers. They should be worried about keeping their doors open. Some of these stories are outlandish.

We had a thread on this a while back. They signed a deal with some streaming company and starting football was part of it.

But even if they go Pioneer, it is still an expensive endeavor.

And when are they announcing a conference move? I hear they are talking to the MEAC and the OVC. But not having scholarship football doesn’t help either league, both of whom are down to six football members.

Also, the OVC doesn’t sponsor men’s soccer and the MEAC doesn’t have soccer at all. No baseball doesn’t do the MEAC’s four baseball teams (or the OVC’s seven) any good.

As desperate as both are for warm bodies, I would advise them to pass on the Chicago State dumpster fire.


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[smilo]

They are back down to three or five, depending on how you count.

So I guess EKU, UCA, and APSU can go there. This would give the Big South 12 members, with seven who are just affiliates.


Well, 12 until Monmouth (and Hampton) go to the Colonial per rumors. They may be back down to 10 soon.

[UNHWildcat18]

Losing JSU SHSU JMU is a tough loss for the FCS IMO.... outside of SHSU you are losing two top notch FCS stadiums as well..... I think C-USA is going to be a bigger dumpster fire once its contract expires. Best of luck though

[Bisonator]

What would it take for the WAC to make a move back to FBS FB? If they could get JSU, NDSU, SDSU and maybe a few more could they suddenly declare FBS again?

[walliver]

What would it take for the WAC to make a move back to FBS FB? If they could get JSU, NDSU, SDSU and maybe a few more could they suddenly declare FBS again?

Right now, it is not allowed by the NCAA. With the NCAA reorganizing itself over the next year, it will likely be possible. I seriously doubt the NCAA's current FBS policy would survive anti-trust scrutiny.

[taper]

Right now, it is not allowed by the NCAA. With the NCAA reorganizing itself over the next year, it will likely be possible. I seriously doubt the NCAA's current FBS policy would survive anti-trust scrutiny.

The WAC can because they were previously FBS.

[Nor Eastern]

The WAC can because they were previously FBS.



They might be able to out-rulebook the NCAA but the WAC does not have a contract with the CFP, which is what distributes football money payout and the access to the NY6 G5 Access bowl. An FBS WAC wouldn't have a contract that gives them access to the NY6, playoffs, and CFP money. I'm sure ESPN Events would give them a bowl pool slot(s) but without the CFP contract it's kinda pointless.

[ElCid]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but CAA just said if JMU jumps to any other conf, they will be ineligible for any championships. So does that mean they delay any official announcement? Interesting.

[Professor Chaos]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but CAA just said if JMU jumps to any other conf, they will be ineligible for any championships. So does that mean they delay any official announcement? Interesting.
Sound like that wouldn't apply for football but that's probably the sport they care least about being eligible for the conference championship in. Seems like a petty move from the CAA IMO.... punishing the current JMU student-athletes more than the school itself.

[walliver]

When WAC FBS collapsed, there was supposedly a 2-3 year window given by the NCAA to allow them to restart at FBS level. That window has long passed.

On the other hand, it probably doesn't matter anymore. After making a "one time" exception for Liberty, I suspect anybody who wants to can move.

[Bisonator]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but CAA just said if JMU jumps to any other conf, they will be ineligible for any championships. So does that mean they delay any official announcement? Interesting.
Not sure that means much to JMU, they'd just get an at-large anyway.

[Nor Eastern]

Not sure that means much to JMU, they'd just get an at-large anyway.


It'd mean a great deal to every other JMU athlete.



When WAC FBS collapsed, there was supposedly a 2-3 year window given by the NCAA to allow them to restart at FBS level. That window has long passed.

On the other hand, it probably doesn't matter anymore. After making a "one time" exception for Liberty, I suspect anybody who wants to can move.


Liberty's power to sue scared the NCAA, quite a bit. NDSU could theoretically say they're hampered by no regional FBS conference so they need Indy and if not they could embarrass the NCAA by tying them up in court on something most people would probably be on the NDSU side.

[Bisonator]

It'd mean a great deal to every other JMU athlete.





Liberty's power to sue scared the NCAA, quite a bit. NDSU could theoretically say they're hampered by no regional FBS conference so they need Indy and if not they could embarrass the NCAA by tying them up in court on something most people would probably be on the NDSU side.
There's no way the NCAA wants another lawsuit they are likely to lose, they've already been pretty well neutered. Trying to stop an FBS move for a state without a current FBS school would be an interesting trial of the interstate commerce clause.

[MSUBobcat]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but CAA just said if JMU jumps to any other conf, they will be ineligible for any championships. So does that mean they delay any official announcement? Interesting.


Sound like that wouldn't apply for football but that's probably the sport they care least about being eligible for the conference championship in. Seems like a petty move from the CAA IMO.... punishing the current JMU student-athletes more than the school itself.

Beat me to it. Very "taking my ball and going home" of the CAA. They're still in your conference as of now so they should get all rights and benefits until such time that they are not members.

[walliver]

Not sure that means much to JMU, they'd just get an at-large anyway.

That works for football, but apparently this ban applies to all sports.

[Professor Chaos]

Beat me to it. Very "taking my ball and going home" of the CAA. They're still in your conference as of now so they should get all rights and benefits until such time that they are not members.
If they wanted to cut them out of their share of the conference revenue from the TV contract and the NCAA tourney TV money I could see that being justified but this just seems silly and petty at least for the current academic year. They could probably claim starting next academic year that JMU has a competitive advantage recruiting but there's no competitive excuse they can use right now.

[MSUBobcat]

If they wanted to cut them out of their share of the conference revenue from the TV contract and the NCAA tourney TV money I could see that being justified but this just seems silly and petty at least for the current academic year. They could probably claim starting next academic year that JMU has a competitive advantage recruiting but there's no competitive excuse they can use right now.

My hot take was that it was a pretty ****ty thing to do. After looking into it a bit more, it appears that IS in their bylaws so they are well within their rights to enforce the bylaw. Unless there is also specific wording allowing them to cut them out of conference revenue, I don't think they'd be justified in that action, especially since they already have the $1M exit fee coming back to the conference. I thought JMU was moving effective next year, so competitive advantage is moot. Is that not accurate?

I know nothing of the politics of Virginia pertaining to how they treat higher education (i.e. would the General Assembly side with W&M to "punish" JMU), but it seems to me the easiest solution for JMU to do an end-around of this ban is for the Va. General Assembly to table the vote to approve JMU's move until the current sports year is over, call a special session over the summer and formally leave the CAA when they can no longer bar you from the conference championships. There'd have to be some back-room dealings ("yeah, we're coming, but we're not 'officially coming' until June") but would be kinda interesting to see them give the CAA the finger. xlolx

[clenz]

My hot take was that it was a pretty ****ty thing to do. After looking into it a bit more, it appears that IS in their bylaws so they are well within their rights to enforce the bylaw. Unless there is also specific wording allowing them to cut them out of conference revenue, I don't think they'd be justified in that action, especially since they already have the $1M exit fee coming back to the conference. I thought JMU was moving effective next year, so competitive advantage is moot. Is that not accurate?

I know nothing of the politics of Virginia pertaining to how they treat higher education (i.e. would the General Assembly side with W&M to "punish" JMU), but it seems to me the easiest solution for JMU to do an end-around of this ban is for the Va. General Assembly to table the vote to approve JMU's move until the current sports year is over, call a special session over the summer and formally leave the CAA when they can no longer bar you from the conference championships. There'd have to be some back-room dealings ("yeah, we're coming, but we're not 'officially coming' until June") but would be kinda interesting to see them give the CAA the finger. xlolx
JMU voted for this

JMU voted to enforce this when ODU left

JMU can sit in the pile of **** they created.