disparity between BCS and FCS; FCS and Div. II

[terrierbob]

Any thoughts on whether the talent gulf between FCS and Div.II is as great as that between FCS and BCS?

[GannonFan]

Has an FCS team ever beaten a top 10 FBS team? There have been losses by top 10 FCS teams to DII teams.

[youwouldno]

It's not a good way to look at things.

Elite players are clustered at the top of the FBS. From there on out, differences are marginal and/or a result of NCAA rules; e.g. FCS teams are allowed 22 fewer scholarships than FBS programs.

[patssle]

Top 10 BCS teams have $50+ million dollar budgets. Top 10 FCS and Division II teams both have $15 million dollar or less budgets.

[PaladinFan]

In my view, the starters on an FCS team and an FBS team are fairly even. It is the depth chart where the disparity comes.

My team's fullback is just as good as any other fullback in the FBS. However, my teams 3rd fullback probably isnt near as good as the #3 guy at an FBS school.

One reason why you see FCS schools hang around for a while but then just get worn down in the end. Not enough quality players on the entire depth chart.

[GannonFan]

In my view, the starters on an FCS team and an FBS team are fairly even. It is the depth chart where the disparity comes.

My team's fullback is just as good as any other fullback in the FBS. However, my teams 3rd fullback probably isnt near as good as the #3 guy at an FBS school.

One reason why you see FCS schools hang around for a while but then just get worn down in the end. Not enough quality players on the entire depth chart.

I dunno, I think you see them hang around awhile just simply because it does take some time to score enough points to make it not seem like hanging around. And no way do you really think the starting 22 for Montana are anywhere close to the starting 22 of USC - certainly a few players on a Montana could be as good or better than the counterpart on USC, but it's almost absurd to think it's just the extra scholarships that make the difference. Most of the time you only see 30-40 players from one team play in a game anyway, a number well below both levels scholarship limits.

[PurpleNights]

Overall, the disparity is probably similiar. With few exceptions, if a player's good enough to play at an FBS school versus an FCS school, he will. The depth chart is certainly a major factor along with overall team speed.

[AZGrizFan]

In my opinion, if there's a starter on an FCS team that's as good as a starter on a comparable (rankings wise) FBS team, it's a recruiting mistake by the FBS team.

That's why I think it's funny that some ASU fans think they've got a shot at beating Michigan. xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[walliver]

Division II has lower academic standards than Division I (FBS and FCS). There are a significant number of "BCS level" players playing in Division II. As a result, the top teams in D-II can be quite competitive with FCS teams.

In general, great high school players choose BCS "big name" teams.
Other high school players generally play at the highest level they can (few high school stars believe they aren't good enough to play "big time" football. Occasionally, players will choose FCS for academic or family reasons (they want to attend a specific school). Some players choose FCS to play at an HBCU. Not uncommonly, FCS teams recruit players that turn out to be "late bloomers".

Overall, however, the best high school players choose teams in this order.

"Big time" (USC, Michigan, LSU, Notre Dame, etc)
Other BCS
"Bottom BCS" (Duke, Wake, Vandy, etc)
non-BCS FBS
Sunbelt
FCS (scholarship)
D-II

The non-scholarship FCS teams don't fit neatly into this list. I don't know enough about those programs to compare how they compete in recruiting vs. D-II (where many of the players are non-scholarship)

[youwouldno]

Division II has lower academic standards than Division I (FBS and FCS). There are a significant number of "BCS level" players playing in Division II. As a result, the top teams in D-II can be quite competitive with FCS teams.

In general, great high school players choose BCS "big name" teams.
Other high school players generally play at the highest level they can (few high school stars believe they aren't good enough to play "big time" football. Occasionally, players will choose FCS for academic or family reasons (they want to attend a specific school). Some players choose FCS to play at an HBCU. Not uncommonly, FCS teams recruit players that turn out to be "late bloomers".

Overall, however, the best high school players choose teams in this order.

"Big time" (USC, Michigan, LSU, Notre Dame, etc)
Other BCS
"Bottom BCS" (Duke, Wake, Vandy, etc)
non-BCS FBS
Sunbelt
FCS (scholarship)
D-II

The non-scholarship FCS teams don't fit neatly into this list. I don't know enough about those programs to compare how they compete in recruiting vs. D-II (where many of the players are non-scholarship)

Recruiting doesn't really work like that, I don't think. Duke doesn't get that many good recruits. Many Sun Belt teams get weaker recruits (though more of them) than many FCS programs.

It's more accurate to say better teams get better recruits. A horrible FBS team will therefor not be guaranteed better recruits, on average, than a top FCS.

[Black Saturday]

In my view, the starters on an FCS team and an FBS team are fairly even. It is the depth chart where the disparity comes.

My team's fullback is just as good as any other fullback in the FBS. However, my teams 3rd fullback probably isnt near as good as the #3 guy at an FBS school.

One reason why you see FCS schools hang around for a while but then just get worn down in the end. Not enough quality players on the entire depth chart.

"My team's fullback is just as good as any other fullback in the FBS."

I have to disagree! Your Fullback is better than every Fullback in the FBS!xnodx

[Franks Tanks]

Division II has lower academic standards than Division I (FBS and FCS). There are a significant number of "BCS level" players playing in Division II. As a result, the top teams in D-II can be quite competitive with FCS teams.

In general, great high school players choose BCS "big name" teams.
Other high school players generally play at the highest level they can (few high school stars believe they aren't good enough to play "big time" football. Occasionally, players will choose FCS for academic or family reasons (they want to attend a specific school). Some players choose FCS to play at an HBCU. Not uncommonly, FCS teams recruit players that turn out to be "late bloomers".

Overall, however, the best high school players choose teams in this order.

"Big time" (USC, Michigan, LSU, Notre Dame, etc)
Other BCS
"Bottom BCS" (Duke, Wake, Vandy, etc)
non-BCS FBS
Sunbelt
FCS (scholarship)
D-II

The non-scholarship FCS teams don't fit neatly into this list. I don't know enough about those programs to compare how they compete in recruiting vs. D-II (where many of the players are non-scholarship)

The Patriot and Ivy league never have to worry about losing a recruit to D-II unless it is purely financial. If a kid has good enough academics to attend an Ivy or a Patriot only a small portion of D-II schools will be attractive to them. Most of the best players we get are very concerned with academics, if they werent they would fins somewhere else to go. If anything i have heard losing players to super elite D-III school such as Amherst, Williams, Carnegie Mellon, etc.

[McNeese_beat]

The top of Division II and the top of the FCS aren't very different and neither is the top of Division II and the lower tier of the FBS (i.e., the Sun Belt, the lower half of the MAC and the lower half of the WAC). In my experience, the levels below the BCS level have their success defined mostly on the availability of talent that would not be available to similarly-sized schools. Beyond that, in head-to-head meetings, the scholarship advantages of the higher level teams play a roll, but not a defining one, IMO.

I find McNeese to be a rare exception in the FCS in that it has excelled in a region of the country that is saturated with college football (11 D-I programs in Louisiana, which only has about 4 million people). What McNeese has going for it is its in an area of the country where the availability of football talent exceeds what is available anywhere else in the country. Sitting in SW Louisiana, you have access to Texas, which produces the most NFL players, Louisiana and Mississippi, the two states that produce (and this varies from year to year) the most NFL players per capita. That's a huge talent pool, even if you have to wait for LSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Houston, Southern Miss, etc., etc., to take their share.

But in most of the country, the success is largely defined by what the schools recruit against. It's true if you're talking the FCS, D-II or whatever. Montana doesn't get raided by BCS schools often so what few top-level players that state produces will likely wind up playing for the Griz or maybe the Bobcats. In that regard, Mointana has a huge recruiting advantage over a Louisiana-Lafayette. There are linemen that if they lived in Louisiana would not even consider ULL (they'd be chosing between LSU, Ole Miss, A&M), but would gladly play for the Griz if they were from Billings. I can promise you there are players, particularly linemen, that play for Montana that if they played their high school ball down here in Louisiana, would have gotten major college scholarship offers and they'd be in the SEC or Big 12. The same is true with the Dakota schools. Portland State is one of just three Division I football programs in Oregon, if I'm not mistaken. All the Big Sky teams enjoy a fertile ground in California, which only has a handfull of Division I teams.

Georgia Southern for years was able to recruit areas of its state that lack college football. For years, it was Georgia, Georgia Tech, GSU, then D-II (Savannah State moved up...but in name only, ha.). And Georgia is a football state that rivals Texas and Louisiana in talent. FCS schools in the northeast can take advantage of the fact that there isn't much FBS football being played up there relative to the population.

I'm sure the same is true in D-II. I already cited the Dakotas, where there was no D-I football until recently. I doubt if a lot of Big 10 teams recruit there heavily. I think the same is true in Kingsville, Texas, which is down there southwest of Corpus Christi, in a populated area that doesn't have a Big 12 or C-USA team nearby. Players from down in the Rio Grande Valley that might end up as second-tier prospects for A&M, Houston or the Longhorns if they lived in Houston metro probably slip down to A&M- Kingsville because they are "hidden" down there near Mexico. Same in West Texas, where Tarleton State can build its programs on west Texas kids overlooked by the Big 12 and C-USA teams that would not have been overlooked if they lived in Austin, Houston or the Metroplex.

[AlphaSigMD]

Division II has lower academic standards than Division I (FBS and FCS). There are a significant number of "BCS level" players playing in Division II. As a result, the top teams in D-II can be quite competitive with FCS teams.

In general, great high school players choose BCS "big name" teams.
Other high school players generally play at the highest level they can (few high school stars believe they aren't good enough to play "big time" football. Occasionally, players will choose FCS for academic or family reasons (they want to attend a specific school). Some players choose FCS to play at an HBCU. Not uncommonly, FCS teams recruit players that turn out to be "late bloomers".

Overall, however, the best high school players choose teams in this order.

"Big time" (USC, Michigan, LSU, Notre Dame, etc)
Other BCS
"Bottom BCS" (Duke, Wake, Vandy, etc)
non-BCS FBS
Sunbelt
FCS (scholarship)
D-II

The non-scholarship FCS teams don't fit neatly into this list. I don't know enough about those programs to compare how they compete in recruiting vs. D-II (where many of the players are non-scholarship)

Um...i think they won the ACC last year.

[Franks Tanks]

Great Points McNeese. For example the difference in landing at Syracuse vs. UMass vs. IUP may be exposure in high school and or the connections your high school coach has. If a respected high school coach calls up the recruiting cordinator at Pitt and says "I have a kid for you" they wil give him a fair shake and take him if he can play, if that kids coach wasnt so connected he ends up at Kent or D-II. All you have to do si look at the amount of FCS and D-II kids in the NFL to understand maany can play at a very high level.

[BisonBacker]

If the kids are good enough to play at a Big Time BCS school it won't matter where they live they will get recruited or at least some of the BCS will go after them. They may not go but many will.

[Franks Tanks]

If the kids are good enough to play at a Big Time BCS school it won't matter where they live they will get recruited or at least some of the BCS will go after them. They may not go but many will.

I agree that in this day and age no stud players (except in special circumstances) are falling through the cracks. My point above was just that borderline players may get to a higher level or better conference due to more exposure or having the backing of a high profile high school coach that the recruiter feels comfortable with.

[Lionsrking]

I agree that in this day and age no stud players (except in special circumstances) are falling through the cracks. My point above was just that borderline players may get to a higher level or better conference due to more exposure or having the backing of a high profile high school coach that the recruiter feels comfortable with.

There will always be "stud" players falling through the cracks, but just fewer of them with the advent of the internet, recruiting web sites and the combines being held around the country.

[Lionsrking]

The top of Division II and the top of the FCS aren't very different and neither is the top of Division II and the lower tier of the FBS (i.e., the Sun Belt, the lower half of the MAC and the lower half of the WAC). In my experience, the levels below the BCS level have their success defined mostly on the availability of talent that would not be available to similarly-sized schools. Beyond that, in head-to-head meetings, the scholarship advantages of the higher level teams play a roll, but not a defining one, IMO.

I find McNeese to be a rare exception in the FCS in that it has excelled in a region of the country that is saturated with college football (11 D-I programs in Louisiana, which only has about 4 million people). What McNeese has going for it is its in an area of the country where the availability of football talent exceeds what is available anywhere else in the country. Sitting in SW Louisiana, you have access to Texas, which produces the most NFL players, Louisiana and Mississippi, the two states that produce (and this varies from year to year) the most NFL players per capita. That's a huge talent pool, even if you have to wait for LSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Houston, Southern Miss, etc., etc., to take their share.

But in most of the country, the success is largely defined by what the schools recruit against. It's true if you're talking the FCS, D-II or whatever. Montana doesn't get raided by BCS schools often so what few top-level players that state produces will likely wind up playing for the Griz or maybe the Bobcats. In that regard, Mointana has a huge recruiting advantage over a Louisiana-Lafayette. There are linemen that if they lived in Louisiana would not even consider ULL (they'd be chosing between LSU, Ole Miss, A&M), but would gladly play for the Griz if they were from Billings. I can promise you there are players, particularly linemen, that play for Montana that if they played their high school ball down here in Louisiana, would have gotten major college scholarship offers and they'd be in the SEC or Big 12. The same is true with the Dakota schools. Portland State is one of just three Division I football programs in Oregon, if I'm not mistaken. All the Big Sky teams enjoy a fertile ground in California, which only has a handfull of Division I teams.

Georgia Southern for years was able to recruit areas of its state that lack college football. For years, it was Georgia, Georgia Tech, GSU, then D-II (Savannah State moved up...but in name only, ha.). And Georgia is a football state that rivals Texas and Louisiana in talent. FCS schools in the northeast can take advantage of the fact that there isn't much FBS football being played up there relative to the population.

I'm sure the same is true in D-II. I already cited the Dakotas, where there was no D-I football until recently. I doubt if a lot of Big 10 teams recruit there heavily. I think the same is true in Kingsville, Texas, which is down there southwest of Corpus Christi, in a populated area that doesn't have a Big 12 or C-USA team nearby. Players from down in the Rio Grande Valley that might end up as second-tier prospects for A&M, Houston or the Longhorns if they lived in Houston metro probably slip down to A&M- Kingsville because they are "hidden" down there near Mexico. Same in West Texas, where Tarleton State can build its programs on west Texas kids overlooked by the Big 12 and C-USA teams that would not have been overlooked if they lived in Austin, Houston or the Metroplex.

I watched the Pittsburg State/Texas A&M-Commerce game on CSTV and there's no doubt that both of those teams would fit in nicely in any FCS conference in the country. The QB for A&M-Commerce could start for a lot of FBS-BCS teams. Very impressed with both squads.

[PaladinFan]

I think Furman has an offensive lineman that only wanted to play for Alabama. UA didn't offer and Furman scooped him up before anyone else did.

Those things happen.

[putter]

Every FBS team has players who received scholarship/walk-on offers from FBS schools. Depth is the biggest difference from FCS-FBS but the depth is smaller from FCS - DII.

After playing Iowa, one of our linebackers, Tyler Joyce commented that you can only take 300 lbs beating down on you for so long withour a break. It says a lot.

[McNeese_beat]

If the kids are good enough to play at a Big Time BCS school it won't matter where they live they will get recruited or at least some of the BCS will go after them. They may not go but many will.

That's true to an extent, but it's a little more complex that. If a guy is an all-out stud, then you couldn't hide him on an island in the arctic. But there are a lot of guys that are second-tier major recruits who are very similar to low-level FBS and FCS recruits...and for that matter, high-end D-II recruits.

I'll give an example. There is a very small town here called Elton that's near a native American community. They play Class 1A ball in Louisiana, which is the smallest of the enrollment classes for Louisiana prep football Over the years, they occasionally produce pretty good athletes and in almost all the instances, these kids wind up at McNeese, having never been recruited, or seen, by the bigger schools. There have been a couple who probably could have played at an LSU and probably would have had they played at a Baton Rouge or suburban New Orleans 5A or 4A school.

But two years ago, there was a defensive tackle at Elton who was about 6-5, 310 pounds, ran about a 4.8 40, frequently dunked as the center on their baksetball team and was basically everything you'd want in a DT because he was big enough to be a plugger in a 3-4 scheme and athletic enough to be a pass-rusher in a 4-3 scheme. Well, there was no hiding that kid. He became a Parade All-American and LSU signed him (the kid's name is Al Wood, he's running second team behind Glen Dorsey this year).

The point is, there are some players who are such no-brainers, you can't hide them. But there are a lot of players in the SEC that are very similar to players in the SLC. There are a lot of wide receivers who are 4.45 40 guys and 6-foot, 180 in both leagues. The difference is, the SEC teams usually have those Al Woods guys who the SLC teams have no shot at and the SLC kids' best players are guys they are lucky LSU didn't notice (Keith Smith of the Detroit Lions is an example of a guy who slipped to McNeese who certainly couldn have played at LSU).

Here's my experience. You take a guy like LaRon Landry at LSU, who became a first-round NFL draft pick. He went to a 5A high school that is among the state's best programs (suburban New Orleans' Hahnville High). There, they run a pro-style offense and a sophisticated defense and compete against teams that do the same.

I submit to you that if he had gone to an out of the way 1A school that runs four offensive plays out of the Wing-T and sits back in the old "50" with the free safety being nothing more than a center fielder against the pass and the last line of defense against the run, then there's a chance (and I'm saying just a chance) that he could have been overlooked and slipped to at least the C-USA level. That will never happen with a big lineman who can run.

[crunifan]

The very top tier of Division II could easily compete in FCS. Would they make the playoffs? No. But would they beat Indiana State and other conference bottom feeders? Yes.

UNI knows all too well what happens when you over look a Division II opponent.

[Casey_Orourke]

Every FBS team has players who received scholarship/walk-on offers from FBS schools. Depth is the biggest difference from FCS-FBS but the depth is smaller from FCS - DII.

After playing Iowa, one of our linebackers, Tyler Joyce commented that you can only take 300 lbs beating down on you for so long withour a break. It says a lot.


That is among the same lines of a comment made by a PSU player after the PSU/Cal game. He said a team like Montana might be faster at a few positions, but Cal is faster in all its positions.

[McNeese_beat]

Great Points McNeese. For example the difference in landing at Syracuse vs. UMass vs. IUP may be exposure in high school and or the connections your high school coach has. If a respected high school coach calls up the recruiting cordinator at Pitt and says "I have a kid for you" they wil give him a fair shake and take him if he can play, if that kids coach wasnt so connected he ends up at Kent or D-II. All you have to do si look at the amount of FCS and D-II kids in the NFL to understand maany can play at a very high level.

Thanks for the compliment. Here's a story that illustrates what you are talking about:

There is a town/school in SE Texas called Newton High that McNeese has had a pipeline from for sometime. Among the players from there is Bryan Smith, who some of the pre-season magazines have as their Buck Buchanan winner this season. There are six at McNeese from the school, which has an enrollment of about 350. It's tucked away in the edge of the piny woods just west of the Texas-Louisiana line (the Sabine River).

For years, McNeese could count on kids from there. But a few years back an old Northwestern State assistant got the defensive coordinator's job at U. of Houston and they signed a kid from this school, actually the younger brother of a former McNeese player. The coach, Bradley Dale Peveto, had recruited SE Texas, often against McNeese, while at Northwestern. He knew the quality of the players McNeese was just stealing from that area. So UH, which mysteriously had never bothered to recruit this area, signed this Newton kid, named Will Gulley, and he was a solid four-year starter for them. Now, Peveto is linebackers coach at LSU and he recruits SE Texas. Uh-oh, say the McNeese coaches who thought they had all the Newton kids hidden away from the big schools...

That's what you're talking about. McNeese has a great relationship with the folks in Newton. Of course, now UH and LSU both have a foot in the door there too. Newton's people will still feel comfortable telling McNeese whenever they have a stud. Of course, now they might tell LSU too...