Pontificating with Hooty

[HootyHoo]

Ladies and Gentlemen, my reality has been shaken. What can we count on in this world when our institutions fail us? I am speaking, of course, of the AGS poll. HOW could the 36th team in the country dominate JSU in such a authoritative manner? Perhaps the good voters of this board might remove their heads from their rectums and reconsider the Mighty Owls of Kennesaw State. One can only hope…

[ysubigred]

Ladies and Gentlemen, my reality has been shaken. What can we count on in this world when our institutions fail us? I am speaking, of course, of the AGS poll. HOW could the 36th team in the country dominate JSU in such a authoritative manner? Perhaps the good voters of this board might remove their heads from their rectums and reconsider the Mighty Owls of Kennesaw State. One can only hope…One team overrated the other right where they need to be.. [emoji106]

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[HootyHoo]

Oh look, Youngstown State. Let’s check how they did today…oh…oh no. Maybe you guys should realize Jim Tressel no longer coaches there and respect your betters.

[JacksFan40]

Ironically there’s simultaneously a thread about firing JSU’s coach.

[ysubigred]

Oh look, Youngstown State. Let’s check how they did today…oh…oh no. Maybe you guys should realize Jim Tressel no longer coaches there and respect your betters.Yup YSU sucks and so does Da owls..

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[JSUSoutherner]

Ladies and Gentlemen, my reality has been shaken. What can we count on in this world when our institutions fail us? I am speaking, of course, of the AGS poll. HOW could the 36th team in the country dominate JSU in such a authoritative manner? Perhaps the good voters of this board might remove their heads from their rectums and reconsider the Mighty Owls of Kennesaw State. One can only hope…

You do realize you just created a thread to brag about beating a team that's on their way to finishing the season 3-8 and have their coach fired, right?

[Daytripper]

I don't think hooter has any self-awareness at all. KSU beat a bad team and is acting like they are disrespected.

[dewey]

You do realize you just created a thread to brag about beating a team that's on their way to finishing the season 3-8 and have their coach fired, right?

But, but, but, but....we (channeling my inner Hooty hoot) were disrespected and ranked 36 in the AGS poll. We defeated the powerhouse of Reinhardt (35-25). Then Georgia Tech got lucky and defeated the mighty Owls (45-17) the game was much closer. Then the Owls absolutely curbstomped Wofford (31-10).

That is the best resume in the country. Kennesaw State should not even have to play the rest of the season with how dominant they have been. I mean really everyone else is playing for the runner-up trophy.

Dewey

[JSUSoutherner]

I don't think hooter has any self-awareness at all. KSU beat a bad team and is acting like they are disrespected.

Fun fact: JSU is 2 plays from being 0-5 right now.

[HootyHoo]

You do realize you just created a thread to brag about beating a team that's on their way to finishing the season 3-8 and have their coach fired, right?

You mistake me, good sir. I respect JSU as a program and your fanbase is loyal. They stayed to the bitter end today and i commend them for that. And your band is sweet. Unfortunately, your team seems to be undisciplined this season. This thread is about the absolute disrespect KSU has experienced on this board.

I do not think KSU is the best team in the country. They do not have the best resume. The best team in the country(by far) is South Dakota St. But I do not think it is trolling to say that the Owls do not deserve to be ranked 36th. That's frankly ridiculous. Top 20 easily.

[JSUSoutherner]

You mistake me, good sir. I respect JSU as a program and your fanbase is loyal. They stayed to the bitter end today and i commend them for that. And your band is sweet. Unfortunately, your team seems to be undisciplined this season. This thread is about the absolute disrespect KSU has experienced on this board.

I do not think KSU is the best team in the country. They do not have the best resume. The best team in the country(by far) is South Dakota St. But I do not think it is trolling to say that the Owls do not deserve to be ranked 36th. That's frankly ridiculous. Top 20 easily.

Maybe they do. But if they do it's not because they "dominated JSU in an authoritative manner".

JSU is dog****. We are a team you are *SUPPOSED* to take to the woodshed. Not a marquee win.

[POD Knows]

You mistake me, good sir. I respect JSU as a program and your fanbase is loyal. They stayed to the bitter end today and i commend them for that. And your band is sweet. Unfortunately, your team seems to be undisciplined this season. This thread is about the absolute disrespect KSU has experienced on this board.

I do not think KSU is the best team in the country. They do not have the best resume. The best team in the country(by far) is South Dakota St. But I do not think it is trolling to say that the Owls do not deserve to be ranked 36th. That's frankly ridiculous. Top 20 easily.
Top 25. I agree. Now STFU.

[HootyHoo]

I shall not be silenced. Kennesaw State University is what you all fear. 40K+ students in a major metropolitan area which is one of richest talent pools in the country. The Owls are not coming, they are here. KSU will be in the Quarterfinals again this season. I hope to see one of your schools there.

[Reign of Terrier]

Imagine coming to this board to boast about making the quarterfinals xlolx

[BisonTru]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/10M2ZnecwCMVGg/giphy.gif

[Puddin Tane]

Ladies and Gentlemen, my reality has been shaken. What can we count on in this world when our institutions fail us? I am speaking, of course, of the AGS poll. HOW could the 36th team in the country dominate JSU in such a authoritative manner? Perhaps the good voters of this board might remove their heads from their rectums and reconsider the Mighty Owls of Kennesaw State. One can only hope…

i think I’ll leave yall out cuz of this post

[CockyGeek]

Get back to us when you have defeated the powerhouse of Hampton

[Bisonoline]

I shall not be silenced. Kennesaw State University is what you all fear. 40K+ students in a major metropolitan area which is one of richest talent pools in the country. The Owls are not coming, they are here. KSU will be in the Quarterfinals again this season. I hope to see one of your schools there.

One of the richest talents pools and you havent done **** in like----forever. Move on little boy until youve actually done something.

[Ncagalum]

I shall not be silenced. Kennesaw State University is what you all fear. 40K+ students in a major metropolitan area which is one of richest talent pools in the country. The Owls are not coming, they are here. KSU will be in the Quarterfinals again this season. I hope to see one of your schools there.

Maybe this years ranking makes up for previous years’ over-ranking. Your offense looks like the Cal Poly offense did for years until Baldwin was hired. I will give it to you that you have a good turf crew. Field looks nice.


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[WestCoastAggie]

🤣

[WestCoastAggie]

Let me ask a more general question. What are the thoughts about the top of the Big South? Monmouth? Kennesaw State? A&T? Charleston Southern?

[acbearkat]

I shall not be silenced. Kennesaw State University is what you all fear. 40K+ students in a major metropolitan area which is one of richest talent pools in the country. The Owls are not coming, they are here. KSU will be in the Quarterfinals again this season. I hope to see one of your schools there.

But you can't get the players because of the offense. The triple option offense won't get Kennesaw State the players it needs to be in national championship contention.

[caribbeanhen]

Let me ask a more general question. What are the thoughts about the top of the Big South? Monmouth? Kennesaw State? A&T? Charleston Southern?

those teams and a cup of coffee would make for a nice sweet cupcake snack

[MUHAWKS]

those teams and a cup of coffee would make for a nice sweet cupcake snack


What does that make The Hens? No show for their FBS game against a not great team, small win against Maine who is not very good. Beat St Francis by 17 and barely get by Albany? This after looking pedestrian against Sacred Heart in the playoffs and getting smoked against a top team.. I would give you credit for the JSU win but everyone here claims they suck (I dont believe that)... This is just a "perception" issue right now.. It is perceived that A CAA team is so much better bc of history and perception but it is not reality. Same in reverse for The Big South. A taem like Campbell would beat half the CAA. The main difference is the top teams in the CAA are better than the top teams in The Big South but not sure by how much yet.

[WestCoastAggie]

What does that make The Hens? No show for their FBS game against a not great team, small win against Maine who is not very good. Beat St Francis by 17 and barely get by Albany? This after looking pedestrian against Sacred Heart in the playoffs and getting smoked against a top team.. I would give you credit for the JSU win but everyone here claims they suck (I dont believe that)... This is just a "perception" issue right now.. It is perceived that A CAA team is so much better bc of history and perception but it is not reality. Same in reverse for The Big South. A taem like Campbell would beat half the CAA. The main difference is the top teams in the CAA are better than the top teams in The Big South but not sure by how much yet.
And for goodness sakes, Howard beat St. Francis.

[Mocs123]

KSU certainly has as much potential as any FCS program and they are in a good recruiting hotspot. NDSU has to be in one of the worst recruiting areas in the country but they seem to have made it work OK, beating out teams in much more fertile recruiting grounds so that's not everything. KSU's biggest asset may be it's large student body that they can get athletic fees out of - they can generate the funding that smaller schools can't match.

As for KSU's ranking, I'm not going to argue for or against a higher ranking, but simply point out that rankings at this point in the season are pretty meaningless. The one thing about FCS is every team gets their shot at a National Championship, if you don't win a National Championship (or make the playoffs, etc), it's because you lost or play in a conference that chooses not to participate. Every team in the FCS controls their own destiny - even the Pioneer League teams. In the past I've generally felt that KSU was over-rated due to the easy schedules, but they have done fairly well come playoff time, including beating any SoCon rep that seems to wonder down to north Georgia, so perhaps you haven't been. If KSU keeps winning, they will end up with a good ranking, and these rankings early in the season won't matter.

[Reign of Terrier]

But you can't get the players because of the offense. The triple option offense won't get Kennesaw State the players it needs to be in national championship contention.

Actually, this isn't quite true (in my opinion). The issue isn't talent per se, it's that running an option offense limits what you can do effectively in certain situations because you're players are limited to mastering certain specific skills while neglecting others (like run blocking as opposed to pass blocking, or reading option as opposed to adept pass reading fundamentals for quarterbacks).

The consequence is you can beat the crap out of any average team at the FCS level, and even ascend in the playoffs to as far as the quarterfinals or maybe even the semifinals if you have good enough matchups and a strong enough defense. But when you start facing elite defenses, your margin of error gets so small that the flexbone becomes a liability more than an asset.

In this way, it's totally logical to think that KSU (or any option team) could be a top 3 team in any conference, any year, if they're coached well enough. But they aren't going to get to the promised land because of the system itself, not because of the players. In my view KSU is at a mid point between where Wofford was and where Georgia Southern was in the day (GSU was more talented and better on offense, and KSU's defenses are consistently better than Wofford's were back in our peak option days, and I think the players they have are a little more talented than what Wofford had running the flex , but only marginally so).

Georgia Southern in the last 20 years (because the game had evolved so much) couldn't get back to the championship game when they were running the TO. It wasn't because they didn't have talent (they ran the air raid for like 2 years and beat App State the same year they beat Michigan and in spite of the TO's shortcomings, they made a couple semifinals and gave NDSU a run for their money). I would argue that, if they had a different offensive philosophy they had the talent to beat NDSU (I know people will disagree with my, but it's just a theory!).

Wofford, KSU, the Citadel, and other TO offenses really can't hope to get farther than the semifinals because the apex option team couldn't, and that team was probably more talented than any of them. That's why Wofford's moved away from it. It's not working out now, but we're really in year one again in a new system, but that's another post.

[HootyHoo]

Let me ask a more general question. What are the thoughts about the top of the Big South? Monmouth? Kennesaw State? A&T? Charleston Southern?

It looks to be a top heavy league this season with Monmouth, A&T, and KSU clearly the best teams. Monmouth has the best offense: Greene, Farr, and Muskett give them a lot of firepower. Now apparently, they don't play well against non-conference opponents(see Holy Cross) but I'm sure they will look like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when they play Kennesaw.

KSU seems to be back to its winning ways this season with a new star QB Xavier Shepherd leading the way. The defense has restocked the cupboard with 4 transfer starters. The Owls are in the top 6 in FCS in TOP, Total defense, fewest penalties, and rushing offense. A disciplined group that doesn't beat itself.

And then there is the wild card A&T. I admit I know very little except you are a proud program that plays a hardnosed brand of football. I'm excited to see how the Aggies matchup vs the Birds. We haven't had a three team race for the conference title in a few years. Should be fun.

[caribbeanhen]

What does that make The Hens? No show for their FBS game against a not great team, small win against Maine who is not very good. Beat St Francis by 17 and barely get by Albany? This after looking pedestrian against Sacred Heart in the playoffs and getting smoked against a top team.. I would give you credit for the JSU win but everyone here claims they suck (I dont believe that)... This is just a "perception" issue right now.. It is perceived that A CAA team is so much better bc of history and perception but it is not reality. Same in reverse for The Big South. A taem like Campbell would beat half the CAA. The main difference is the top teams in the CAA are better than the top teams in The Big South but not sure by how much yet.

The Hens? Who’s talking about the Hens here....

[Reign of Terrier]

It looks to be a top heavy league this season with Monmouth, A&T, and KSU clearly the best teams. Monmouth has the best offense: Greene, Farr, and Muskett give them a lot of firepower. Now apparently, they don't play well against non-conference opponents(see Holy Cross) but I'm sure they will look like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when they play Kennesaw.

KSU seems to be back to its winning ways this season with a new star QB Xavier Shepherd leading the way. The defense has restocked the cupboard with 4 transfer starters. The Owls are in the top 6 in FCS in TOP, Total defense, fewest penalties, and rushing offense. A disciplined group that doesn't beat itself.

And then there is the wild card A&T. I admit I know very little except you are a proud program that plays a hardnosed brand of football. I'm excited to see how the Aggies matchup vs the Birds. We haven't had a three team race for the conference title in a few years. Should be fun.

Spoilers: A&T isn't good. You're welcome.

[MUHAWKS]

It looks to be a top heavy league this season with Monmouth, A&T, and KSU clearly the best teams. Monmouth has the best offense: Greene, Farr, and Muskett give them a lot of firepower. Now apparently, they don't play well against non-conference opponents(see Holy Cross) but I'm sure they will look like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when they play Kennesaw.

KSU seems to be back to its winning ways this season with a new star QB Xavier Shepherd leading the way. The defense has restocked the cupboard with 4 transfer starters. The Owls are in the top 6 in FCS in TOP, Total defense, fewest penalties, and rushing offense. A disciplined group that doesn't beat itself.

And then there is the wild card A&T. I admit I know very little except you are a proud program that plays a hardnosed brand of football. I'm excited to see how the Aggies matchup vs the Birds. We haven't had a three team race for the conference title in a few years. Should be fun.

Campbell is the sleeper.. I hate to say it b/c it is tough enough but they are good.

[JacksFan40]

Let me ask a more general question. What are the thoughts about the top of the Big South? Monmouth? Kennesaw State? A&T? Charleston Southern?
Good but won’t compete with the premier MVFC and Big Sky teams.

[HootyHoo]

Good but won’t compete with the premier MVFC and Big Sky teams.

KSU played SDST in the quarters a couple years ago. You were better, but not by much. Pierre Strong was the difference that day. However, I do think the Jackrabbits are the best team in the country this season. I'd rather play you next year if you don't mind.

[Bisonator]

You mistake me, good sir. I respect JSU as a program and your fanbase is loyal. They stayed to the bitter end today and i commend them for that. And your band is sweet. Unfortunately, your team seems to be undisciplined this season. This thread is about the absolute disrespect KSU has experienced on this board.

I do not think KSU is the best team in the country. They do not have the best resume. The best team in the country(by far) is South Dakota St. But I do not think it is trolling to say that the Owls do not deserve to be ranked 36th. That's frankly ridiculous. Top 20 easily.
Make your case for why they are a top 20 team at this point, please include all pertinent facts including FBS and top 20 FCS wins...................and go!

[WestCoastAggie]

Actually, this isn't quite true (in my opinion). The issue isn't talent per se, it's that running an option offense limits what you can do effectively in certain situations because you're players are limited to mastering certain specific skills while neglecting others (like run blocking as opposed to pass blocking, or reading option as opposed to adept pass reading fundamentals for quarterbacks).

The consequence is you can beat the crap out of any average team at the FCS level, and even ascend in the playoffs to as far as the quarterfinals or maybe even the semifinals if you have good enough matchups and a strong enough defense. But when you start facing elite defenses, your margin of error gets so small that the flexbone becomes a liability more than an asset.

In this way, it's totally logical to think that KSU (or any option team) could be a top 3 team in any conference, any year, if they're coached well enough. But they aren't going to get to the promised land because of the system itself, not because of the players. In my view KSU is at a mid point between where Wofford was and where Georgia Southern was in the day (GSU was more talented and better on offense, and KSU's defenses are consistently better than Wofford's were back in our peak option days, and I think the players they have are a little more talented than what Wofford had running the flex , but only marginally so).

Georgia Southern in the last 20 years (because the game had evolved so much) couldn't get back to the championship game when they were running the TO. It wasn't because they didn't have talent (they ran the air raid for like 2 years and beat App State the same year they beat Michigan and in spite of the TO's shortcomings, they made a couple semifinals and gave NDSU a run for their money). I would argue that, if they had a different offensive philosophy they had the talent to beat NDSU (I know people will disagree with my, but it's just a theory!).

Wofford, KSU, the Citadel, and other TO offenses really can't hope to get farther than the semifinals because the apex option team couldn't, and that team was probably more talented than any of them. That's why Wofford's moved away from it. It's not working out now, but we're really in year one again in a new system, but that's another post.

Why teams won't run triple option principles out of spread sets is beyond me. In fact, many RPO schemes are based on the TO, IIRC. Therefore, it shouldn't be too hard for teams like KSU to modify their scheme for a bigger pool of players.

[JSUSoutherner]

Make your case for why they are a top 20 team at this point, please include all pertinent facts including FBS and top 20 FCS wins...................and go!

Because they strugglebussed their way over Reinhardt, beat a 1 win Wofford Team, got embarrassed so bad it ended up being a SC Top 10 play at GT, and dominated a JSU team that is 2 plays from being 0-5 on the year.

Did I miss anything?

[WestCoastAggie]

Campbell is the sleeper.. I hate to say it b/c it is tough enough but they are good.

Campbell is going to make the playoffs before Coach Minter is scooped up by a bigger program.

[WestCoastAggie]

It looks to be a top heavy league this season with Monmouth, A&T, and KSU clearly the best teams. Monmouth has the best offense: Greene, Farr, and Muskett give them a lot of firepower. Now apparently, they don't play well against non-conference opponents(see Holy Cross) but I'm sure they will look like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when they play Kennesaw.

KSU seems to be back to its winning ways this season with a new star QB Xavier Shepherd leading the way. The defense has restocked the cupboard with 4 transfer starters. The Owls are in the top 6 in FCS in TOP, Total defense, fewest penalties, and rushing offense. A disciplined group that doesn't beat itself.

And then there is the wild card A&T. I admit I know very little except you are a proud program that plays a hardnosed brand of football. I'm excited to see how the Aggies matchup vs the Birds. We haven't had a three team race for the conference title in a few years. Should be fun.

I don't want to sound like a homer but I'm going to be a bit of a homer. A&T's offense might be better than Monmouth's at this point even though y'all RB is by and large the best back stats-wise in the conference. I've seen too many drives this season where A&T's offense imposed their will on their opponents defense (Duke included) or drove down the field and scored in 5 plays or less. We're very balanced and can play multiple ways behind Fowler, our stable of backs, and arguably one of the best WR Corps on the East Coast.

My concerns are our pass defense from the pass rush to the coverage schemes we throw at teams. But then again, if we're jumping out on teams to quick 10-0 or 14-0 leads early on, we automatically put pressure on these teams to disregard their running game plans and throw the ball 50 times. Tough sledding for most teams.

[caribbeanhen]

Campbell is the sleeper.. I hate to say it b/c it is tough enough but they are good.

I said keep an eye on Campbell last fall when they played and lost 4 games. Sounds crazy right? I liked the QB but he got hurt against N Alabama. The back up came in and looked pretty good.

[caribbeanhen]

What does that make The Hens? No show for their FBS game against a not great team, small win against Maine who is not very good. Beat St Francis by 17 and barely get by Albany? This after looking pedestrian against Sacred Heart in the playoffs and getting smoked against a top team.. I would give you credit for the JSU win but everyone here claims they suck (I dont believe that)... This is just a "perception" issue right now.. It is perceived that A CAA team is so much better bc of history and perception but it is not reality. Same in reverse for The Big South. A taem like Campbell would beat half the CAA. The main difference is the top teams in the CAA are better than the top teams in The Big South but not sure by how much yet.

I’m not talking about the CAA either, any group think perception about the greatness of the CAA is long gone.

Let’s see if you can beat the Ivy League this weekend and if the Big South is as good as you guys want it to be you should not have any problems taking down Princeton ..

[JacksFan40]

KSU played SDST in the quarters a couple years ago. You were better, but not by much. Pierre Strong was the difference that day. However, I do think the Jackrabbits are the best team in the country this season. I'd rather play you next year if you don't mind.
2021 SDSU is quite a bit better than 2018 SDSU. Only thing I’d say might not be as good is QB. Hard to put Oladokun ahead of Christion.
Next year we’ll still have multiple stars like the Janke’s, Isiah Davis, and Gronowski will be back at QB, so I’m not overly worried.

[HootyHoo]

Make your case for why they are a top 20 team at this point, please include all pertinent facts including FBS and top 20 FCS wins...................and go!

This my moment! Clears throat...
*all ranking are FCS*

In this 15,000 page dissertation, I, Dr. Hooty Archimedes Hoo, will attempt to encapsulate the football phenomenon that is the 2021 Kennesaw State Owls football team.

1. After finishing 33rd(2020) and 55th(2019) in fewest penalties, the Owls are currently 2nd in the FCS in 2021. This is huge for a triple option team since staying on schedule is key to the scheme's success. This team is well coached and fundamentally sound.

2: Speaking of staying on schedule, the Owls are doing just that. Ranking 2nd in Time of Possession. Now you might say "Sir Hoot!, option teams will always be tops(hehe) in the nation in TOP!" but I would point to our rankings the previous two seasons, 13th(2020) and 19th(2019) as proof that the Owls struggled to stay on the field. Now KSU can extend drives to the 8 minute mark. Which breaks the will of the opponent and keeps our Defense fresh.

3. Defense! Defense! Defense! In this not-so humble writer's opinion, this is the biggest area of improvement from this year to last. The main reason for this is surprising. We went out and got new players! 4 transfers: Welton Spottsville from UNC, Javaan Singletary from GA southern, Erwin Byrd from Maryland, and D2 All American Evan Thompson from Florida Tech gives the Owls a new look D.

4. XAVIER SHEPHERD: is our new QB. The most decorated recruit in program history out of Pearl-Cohn High School in Nashville. Shepherd can throw, he can run, and he's a smart dude(majors in Biology). He is the reigning Big South offensive player of the week and his first two starts this season vs FCS competition have been promising:
Vs Wofford: Passing: 5/6 for 75 yards 2 TDs. Rushing:17 Carries for 97 yards 1 TD
Vs JSU: Passing: 5/6 for 72 yards 0-0. Rushing: 32 carries for 124 yards 3 TDs

In conclusion, Kennesaw State has cleaned up their act, took advantage of the transfer portal to fill some holes on defense, and have a new stud QB who runs the option to perfection.

[MUHAWKS]

I’m not talking about the CAA either, any group think perception about the greatness of the CAA is long gone.

Let’s see if you can beat the Ivy League this weekend and if the Big South is as good as you guys want it to be you should not have any problems taking down Princeton ..

Facts. Would be a tremendous setback appearance wise.. I hear you on CAA but I still feel people look at a URI or Richmond or Elon and are automatically see better" when in relation to a solid NEC, Big South type. In terms of overall nationally maybe you are right.

[MR. CHICKEN]

What does that make The Hens? No show for their FBS game against a not great team, small win against Maine who is not very good. Beat St Francis by 17 and barely get by Albany? This after looking pedestrian against Sacred Heart in the playoffs and getting smoked against a top team.. I would give you credit for the JSU win but everyone here claims they suck (I dont believe that)... This is just a "perception" issue right now.. It is perceived that A CAA team is so much better bc of history and perception but it is not reality. Same in reverse for The Big South. A taem like Campbell would beat half the CAA. The main difference is the top teams in the CAA are better than the top teams in The Big South but not sure by how much yet.

......HMMMMM!......NOT OFF TA UH GOOD START WHIFF CAA...........ELON.......AS PREDICTED BAH CAA PRESEASON POLL & LINDY'S........TO FINISH DEAD LAST.....IN CAA.....OWN CAMPBELL'S SCALP DIS SEASON.......BRAWK!........AN' DUH CAMELS.....GET UH CRACK @ TOP HALF ....WHIFF UH DATE IN NOVEMBER........AGIN' JMU...........BRAWK!

[Daytripper]

This my moment! Clears throat...
*all ranking are FCS*

In this 15,000 page dissertation, I, Dr. Hooty Archimedes Hoo, will attempt to encapsulate the football phenomenon that is the 2021 Kennesaw State Owls football team.

1. After finishing 33rd(2020) and 55th(2019) in fewest penalties, the Owls are currently 2nd in the FCS in 2021. This is huge for a triple option team since staying on schedule is key to the scheme's success. This team is well coached and fundamentally sound.

2: Speaking of staying on schedule, the Owls are doing just that. Ranking 2nd in Time of Possession. Now you might say "Sir Hoot!, option teams will always be tops(hehe) in the nation in TOP!" but I would point to our rankings the previous two seasons, 13th(2020) and 19th(2019) as proof that the Owls struggled to stay on the field. Now KSU can extend drives to the 8 minute mark. Which breaks the will of the opponent and keeps our Defense fresh.

3. Defense! Defense! Defense! In this not-so humble writer's opinion, this is the biggest area of improvement from this year to last. The main reason for this is surprising. We went out and got new players! 4 transfers: Welton Spottsville from UNC, Javaan Singletary from GA southern, Erwin Byrd from Maryland, and D2 All American Evan Thompson from Florida Tech gives the Owls a new look D.

4. XAVIER SHEPHERD: is our new QB. The most decorated recruit in program history out of Pearl-Cohn High School in Nashville. Shepherd can throw, he can run, and he's a smart dude(majors in Biology). He is the reigning Big South offensive player of the week and his first two starts this season vs FCS competition have been promising:
Vs Wofford: Passing: 5/6 for 75 yards 2 TDs. Rushing:17 Carries for 97 yards 1 TD
Vs JSU: Passing: 5/6 for 72 yards 0-0. Rushing: 32 carries for 124 yards 3 TDs

In conclusion, Kennesaw State has cleaned up their act, took advantage of the transfer portal to fill some holes on defense, and have a new stud QB who runs the option to perfection.

Actually beat a decent team....like North Carolina A&T in 2 weeks....then you will have my attention.

[FUBeAR]

I believe the actual spelling is “Urchimedes” and the monogram always includes an ending “?”

[HootyHoo]

I believe the actual spelling is “Urchimedes” and the monogram always includes an ending “?”

I'm named after Merlin's pet owl in the Disney movie. Not the Greek guy.

[caribbeanhen]

This my moment! Clears throat...
*all ranking are FCS*

In this 15,000 page dissertation, I, Dr. Hooty Archimedes Hoo, will attempt to encapsulate the football phenomenon that is the 2021 Kennesaw State Owls football team.

1. After finishing 33rd(2020) and 55th(2019) in fewest penalties, the Owls are currently 2nd in the FCS in 2021. This is huge for a triple option team since staying on schedule is key to the scheme's success. This team is well coached and fundamentally sound.

2: Speaking of staying on schedule, the Owls are doing just that. Ranking 2nd in Time of Possession. Now you might say "Sir Hoot!, option teams will always be tops(hehe) in the nation in TOP!" but I would point to our rankings the previous two seasons, 13th(2020) and 19th(2019) as proof that the Owls struggled to stay on the field. Now KSU can extend drives to the 8 minute mark. Which breaks the will of the opponent and keeps our Defense fresh.

3. Defense! Defense! Defense! In this not-so humble writer's opinion, this is the biggest area of improvement from this year to last. The main reason for this is surprising. We went out and got new players! 4 transfers: Welton Spottsville from UNC, Javaan Singletary from GA southern, Erwin Byrd from Maryland, and D2 All American Evan Thompson from Florida Tech gives the Owls a new look D.

4. XAVIER SHEPHERD: is our new QB. The most decorated recruit in program history out of Pearl-Cohn High School in Nashville. Shepherd can throw, he can run, and he's a smart dude(majors in Biology). He is the reigning Big South offensive player of the week and his first two starts this season vs FCS competition have been promising:
Vs Wofford: Passing: 5/6 for 75 yards 2 TDs. Rushing:17 Carries for 97 yards 1 TD
Vs JSU: Passing: 5/6 for 72 yards 0-0. Rushing: 32 carries for 124 yards 3 TDs

In conclusion, Kennesaw State has cleaned up their act, took advantage of the transfer portal to fill some holes on defense, and have a new stud QB who runs the option to perfection.

lol

only made it past the first sentence but will read it later

You guys can say what you want about Hooty and the owls but he is funny

[caribbeanhen]

Facts. Would be a tremendous setback appearance wise.. I hear you on CAA but I still feel people look at a URI or Richmond or Elon and are automatically see better" when in relation to a solid NEC, Big South type. In terms of overall nationally maybe you are right.

You see what you just did.... your acting like you are somehow better than Princeton .... maybe you were a CAA fan 10 years ago and picked up some bad habits ....

let’s see what happens on Saturday

[MR. CHICKEN]

Actually beat a decent team....like North Carolina A&T in 2 weeks....then you will have my attention.

......DECENT MAYBEAH DOWN DUH ROAD......BUT DUBBYA'S OVERAH ROBERT MORRIS/N. CAROLINA CENTRAL......AN' UH LOSS TA FURMAN....DOES'NT CONJURE UP DECENT YET......AWK!


....GOTTAH LOVE DUH INTERNET......YA'S CAN FIND OUT ANYTHIN'..........AWQUE!!

[MUHAWKS]

You see what you just did.... your acting like you are somehow better than Princeton .... maybe you were a CAA fan 10 years ago and picked up some bad habits ....

let’s see what happens on Saturday

Aside from the fact that IVY's get FBS players who would rather get the degree from IVY- isnt' it assumed that a full scholarship program should be better? Monmouth does not quite have the full 63 yet but close enough. I am not saying we ARE better I am saying we are supposed to be hence another loss would be bad.. What there do you disagree with? Every year the best IVY team perhaps even best 2 are top 20 teams sometimes even better and for good reason. They ahve talent and are good- they get a lot of good players would be be high level fcs or FBS- I am not saying anything other than a full scholly team "should" be better than Ivy..no? And it is not me man, everyone pretty much would consider MU losing to Princeton again to mean are not very good..

[FUBeAR]

I'm named after Merlin's pet owl in the Disney movie. Not the Greek guy.
Exactly. As FUBeAR said, Dr. HUH?

[MUHAWKS]

......HMMMMM!......NOT OFF TA UH GOOD START WHIFF CAA...........ELON.......AS PREDICTED BAH CAA PRESEASON POLL & LINDY'S........TO FINISH DEAD LAST.....IN CAA.....OWN CAMPBELL'S SCALP DIS SEASON.......BRAWK!........AN' DUH CAMELS.....GET UH CRACK @ TOP HALF ....WHIFF UH DATE IN NOVEMBER........AGIN' JMU...........BRAWK!

I think that PROVES my point if anything ..Campbell has been a middle of the road Big South Team and Elon came back to beat them by 1. To me that leads me to believe Campbell probably could beat half the CAA-- I mean ok they lost to Elon. by one point? Shows me they can beat them and teams like Albany (who Monmouth beat in 2019), Maine, Richmond, Stony Brook , W&M..

[Bisonoline]

lol

only made it past the first sentence but will read it later

You guys can say what you want about Hooty and the owls but he is funny

Speaking in the third person is idiotic and childish.

[HootyHoo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDq8itbIju8&t=714s

Bohannon press conference. Starts at 3:45 for some reason. But the point of interest starts at 10:20, Bohannon speaks of KSU's lack of respect.

"It's like we don't exist."

[FUBeAR]

Speaking in the third person is idiotic and childish.
FUBeAR rejects this narrow-minded & selfish opinion. When one is, in fact, (at least) 3 different mammals, 3rd person is the recommended, and sometimes required, grammatical voice.

[FUBeAR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDq8itbIju8&t=714s

Bohannon press conference. Starts at 3:45 for some reason. But the point of interest starts at 10:20, Bohannon speaks of KSU's lack of respect.

"It's like we don't exist."
FUBeAR is a bit confused…a few important questions about this video

1) Is Five Thirds of a Bank a South Korean Financial Institution?
2) Was the name One and Two Thirds of a Bank already taken?
3) Does the guy talking work for the bank?
4) Is he South Korean? His sweater seems to indicate he is, but I’m not so sure.
5) What does any of this have to do with JaxState, Monmouth, or NC A&T Football?

[WestCoastAggie]

......DECENT MAYBEAH DOWN DUH ROAD......BUT DUBBYA'S OVERAH ROBERT MORRIS/N. CAROLINA CENTRAL......AN' UH LOSS TA FURMAN....DOES'NT CONJURE UP DECENT YET......AWK!


....GOTTAH LOVE DUH INTERNET......YA'S CAN FIND OUT ANYTHIN'..........AWQUE!!

We’ll just keep doing Chicken in Aggieland.

[caribbeanhen]

Aside from the fact that IVY's get FBS players who would rather get the degree from IVY- isnt' it assumed that a full scholarship program should be better? Monmouth does not quite have the full 63 yet but close enough. I am not saying we ARE better I am saying we are supposed to be hence another loss would be bad.. What there do you disagree with? Every year the best IVY team perhaps even best 2 are top 20 teams sometimes even better and for good reason. They ahve talent and are good- they get a lot of good players would be be high level fcs or FBS- I am not saying anything other than a full scholly team "should" be better than Ivy..no? And it is not me man, everyone pretty much would consider MU losing to Princeton again to mean are not very good..

63 schoolies not working out for most of the Patriot League

All I know is when I watch the top Ivies teams the talent is real

[MR. CHICKEN]

We’ll just keep doing Chicken in Aggieland.



32165


.......MAYBEAH AH GOT IT WRONG.........WAS HE TALKIN' 'BOUT DUH BAND?? ......xdontknowx..........BRAWK!

[Bisonator]

This my moment! Clears throat...
*all ranking are FCS*

In this 15,000 page dissertation, I, Dr. Hooty Archimedes Hoo, will attempt to encapsulate the football phenomenon that is the 2021 Kennesaw State Owls football team.

1. After finishing 33rd(2020) and 55th(2019) in fewest penalties, the Owls are currently 2nd in the FCS in 2021. This is huge for a triple option team since staying on schedule is key to the scheme's success. This team is well coached and fundamentally sound.

2: Speaking of staying on schedule, the Owls are doing just that. Ranking 2nd in Time of Possession. Now you might say "Sir Hoot!, option teams will always be tops(hehe) in the nation in TOP!" but I would point to our rankings the previous two seasons, 13th(2020) and 19th(2019) as proof that the Owls struggled to stay on the field. Now KSU can extend drives to the 8 minute mark. Which breaks the will of the opponent and keeps our Defense fresh.

3. Defense! Defense! Defense! In this not-so humble writer's opinion, this is the biggest area of improvement from this year to last. The main reason for this is surprising. We went out and got new players! 4 transfers: Welton Spottsville from UNC, Javaan Singletary from GA southern, Erwin Byrd from Maryland, and D2 All American Evan Thompson from Florida Tech gives the Owls a new look D.

4. XAVIER SHEPHERD: is our new QB. The most decorated recruit in program history out of Pearl-Cohn High School in Nashville. Shepherd can throw, he can run, and he's a smart dude(majors in Biology). He is the reigning Big South offensive player of the week and his first two starts this season vs FCS competition have been promising:
Vs Wofford: Passing: 5/6 for 75 yards 2 TDs. Rushing:17 Carries for 97 yards 1 TD
Vs JSU: Passing: 5/6 for 72 yards 0-0. Rushing: 32 carries for 124 yards 3 TDs

In conclusion, Kennesaw State has cleaned up their act, took advantage of the transfer portal to fill some holes on defense, and have a new stud QB who runs the option to perfection.
I'd venture to guess 90% of FCS would have similar stats against your putrid schedule. You gotta come up with something more substantive to get up in the top 20.........please continue

[MUHAWKS]

63 schoolies not working out for most of the Patriot League

All I know is when I watch the top Ivies teams the talent is real

Good point on The PL-- and bro I agree 100% the talent is real for sure. Last thing I will say on it for now though is teams like Kennesaw do not even get credit for BEATING a team that beat Florida State and who is ranked and a playoff team from last year so at the VERY least we "need" and "expect" to beat Princeton if we want to compete on the national level. But not even for a second do I underestimate the talent level and based on our 2018 game, that should help us bc we def have the talent teh rest is mental and preparation..we will see sat!

[acbearkat]

Good point on The PL-- and bro I agree 100% the talent is real for sure. Last thing I will say on it for now though is teams like Kennesaw do not even get credit for BEATING a team that beat Florida State and who is ranked and a playoff team from last year so at the VERY least we "need" and "expect" to beat Princeton if we want to compete on the national level. But not even for a second do I underestimate the talent level and based on our 2018 game, that should help us bc we def have the talent teh rest is mental and preparation..we will see sat!

Jacksonville State is talented, but not a good football team. They were lucky to beat to Florida State. All the Seminoles had to do was defend the play, and they win. Jacksonville State has struggled all year long. Jacksonville State is 8 points away from being 0-5.

[HootyHoo]

I'd venture to guess 90% of FCS would have similar stats against your putrid schedule. You gotta come up with something more substantive to get up in the top 20.........please continue

If KSU wins out, we will have 9 FCS wins including Monmouth, NC A&T, JSU, and Wofford. That's worthy of the 8 seed. Big IF though...

[WestCoastAggie]

32165


.......MAYBEAH AH GOT IT WRONG.........WAS HE TALKIN' 'BOUT DUH BAND?? ......xdontknowx..........BRAWK!

I don't know but it felt like a good time to throw out team motto in here. LOL!

[WestCoastAggie]

If KSU wins out, we will have 9 FCS wins including Monmouth, NC A&T, JSU, and Wofford. That's worthy of the 8 seed. Big IF though...

Hmm... Compelling. It'll be tough for any of us to win out though. It feels like a playoff already.

[WestCoastAggie]

Good point on The PL-- and bro I agree 100% the talent is real for sure. Last thing I will say on it for now though is teams like Kennesaw do not even get credit for BEATING a team that beat Florida State and who is ranked and a playoff team from last year so at the VERY least we "need" and "expect" to beat Princeton if we want to compete on the national level. But not even for a second do I underestimate the talent level and based on our 2018 game, that should help us bc we def have the talent teh rest is mental and preparation..we will see sat!

That Holy Cross loss was very bad for you all and the Big South's chances in landing at-large bids honestly. And to be honest, A&T's loss against Furman isn't looking so well either. We just have to take things one week at a time and let chips fall where they may.

[Bisonator]

If KSU wins out, we will have 9 FCS wins including Monmouth, NC A&T, JSU, and Wofford. That's worthy of the 8 seed. Big IF though...
So shut your yappy and see what happens. Maybe your team will earn the respect you think they deserve but to date they haven't done ****. xpeacex

[caribbeanhen]

Good point on The PL-- and bro I agree 100% the talent is real for sure. Last thing I will say on it for now though is teams like Kennesaw do not even get credit for BEATING a team that beat Florida State and who is ranked and a playoff team from last year so at the VERY least we "need" and "expect" to beat Princeton if we want to compete on the national level. But not even for a second do I underestimate the talent level and based on our 2018 game, that should help us bc we def have the talent teh rest is mental and preparation..we will see sat!

Its hard not to like you! Keep fighting the Monmouth fight on here, I enjoy your posts

Having said that I hope Princeton beats you this weekend, not sure they will though

[dgtw]

Jacksonville State is talented, but not a good football team. They were lucky to beat to Florida State. All the Seminoles had to do was defend the play, and they win. Jacksonville State has struggled all year long. Jacksonville State is 8 points away from being 0-5.

Literally two plays from being 0-5. Against UNA we had a 100 yard fumble return for a touchdown.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dewey]

If KSU wins out, we will have 9 FCS wins including Monmouth, NC A&T, JSU, and Wofford. That's worthy of the 8 seed. Big IF though...

As of right now Jacksonville State and Wofford are not good wins.

If all of these teams have 1 loss or less who should KSu Be above?

SDSU
James Madison
Montana
UC Davis
NDSU
Montana State
Eastern Washington
Sam Houston State

Dewey

[WestCoastAggie]

As of right now Jacksonville State and Wofford are not good wins.

If all of these teams have 1 loss or less who should KSu Be above?

SDSU
James Madison
Montana
UC Davis
NDSU
Montana State
Eastern Washington
Sam Houston State

Dewey

Unfortunately, the Big South blew their chances at a seed with our losses to Furman and Holy Cross. Now if those teams listed start getting bad losses, then we could get an outside shot at a 7 or 8 seed but if doubt that happens.

[HootyHoo]

As of right now Jacksonville State and Wofford are not good wins.

If all of these teams have 1 loss or less who should KSu Be above?

SDSU
James Madison
Montana
UC Davis
NDSU
Montana State
Eastern Washington
Sam Houston State

Dewey

I'd say Montana State right now f they finished 3rd in the Big Sky. Obviously, several of these teams play each other so some of these will have multiple losses.

[HootyHoo]

The seeds as i see them right now:

1, South Dakota St
2. Sam Houston
3. Eastern Washington
4. North Dakota St
5. James Madison
6. Montana
7. UC Davis
8. Montana St

-Delaware, Villanova, North Dakota, ETSU, and KSU are the challengers.

[Catbooster]

I'd say Montana State right now f they finished 3rd in the Big Sky. Obviously, several of these teams play each other so some of these will have multiple losses.
WHAT???

Remaining games:

We play at Weber, at EWU and at UM so it's entirely possible that we'll end up with another loss or two. We avoid UC Davis

Griz play at home against us. Next toughest remaining game is Sac State? They avoid Weber and UC Davis.

Eagles play Weber and us at home, UC Davis away. They don't avoid any top Big Sky teams this year.

UC Davis plays EWU at home. Next toughest Sac State? They avoid both Montana teams.

Gotta love these big conferences where you don't play everybody. EWU will have earned it if they win the conference.

[kalm]

I'd say Montana State right now f they finished 3rd in the Big Sky. Obviously, several of these teams play each other so some of these will have multiple losses.

Conference finish does not weigh much if at all when it comes to seeding.

[kalm]

The seeds as i see them right now:

1, South Dakota St
2. Sam Houston
3. Eastern Washington
4. North Dakota St
5. James Madison
6. Montana
7. UC Davis
8. Montana St

-Delaware, Villanova, North Dakota, ETSU, and KSU are the challengers.

SIU, UNI, UTM, probably a few more.

[HootyHoo]

WHAT???

Remaining games:

We play at Weber, at EWU and at UM so it's entirely possible that we'll end up with another loss or two. We avoid UC Davis

Griz play at home against us. Next toughest remaining game is Sac State? They avoid Weber and UC Davis.

Eagles play Weber and us at home, UC Davis away. They don't avoid any top Big Sky teams this year.

UC Davis plays EWU at home. Next toughest Sac State? They avoid both Montana teams.

Gotta love these big conferences where you don't play everybody. EWU will have earned it if they win the conference.

Unbalanced schedules are lame. That definitely means a 10-1 Big South or SOCON champ deserves precedence over 3rd or 4th place Big Sky teams due to schedule tomfoolery.

[ksu_owls]

If KSU wins out, we will have 9 FCS wins including Monmouth, NC A&T, JSU, and Wofford. That's worthy of the 8 seed. Big IF though...

We would have to destroy the rest of our schedule to get that kind of attention. Maybe we will, but keep doing the lords work Hooty!

[Preferred Walk-On]

If KSU wins out, we will have 9 FCS wins including Monmouth, NC A&T, JSU, and Wofford. That's worthy of the 8 seed. Big IF though...

You should shoot for the #7 seed...they have been much more successful in the playoffs. However, if quarterfinals are your goal, then I guess the #8 seed will do.

Also, you have mentioned four potential wins (out of your nine FCS opponents) that don't seem to quite have the sheen they would have had in a previous year (and I am assuming you are picking these out as your best ones). Not to be anti-Big South at all, but I am not sure "worthy of an 8 seed" is the correct choice of words in this scenario...in a previous year, maybe. However, best of luck, and we'll see where things fall in seven more weekends.

[Katfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDq8itbIju8&t=714s

Bohannon press conference. Starts at 3:45 for some reason. But the point of interest starts at 10:20, Bohannon speaks of KSU's lack of respect.

"It's like we don't exist."
KS who?

[Katfan]

I'd venture to guess 90% of FCS would have similar stats against your putrid schedule. You gotta come up with something more substantive to get up in the top 20.........please continue
95 %

[Reign of Terrier]

The only thing out of place about this thread is that it was started in late september/early october and not late november

[Reign of Terrier]

Also everyone thought that Sam Houston State was garbage until literally this past March. I think KSU is good and non-Valley/Big Sky teams get more **** for losses to good Valley/Big Sky teams than those in conference play. For instance: in 2019 KSU played just as respectively against Weber as Montana did (even though Montana beat them like a drum in the regular season) - even though KSU had an ugly loss to Monmouth. Those possibilities are seen as normal for Montana, but the idea that, given the right circumstances, KSU couldn't pile drive WSU in the same way is just never discussed.

To be clear, if you're a gambler in the FCS playoffs, I wouldn't bet on KSU past the quarterfinals (if that far). But the standards of getting respect from FCS/AGS voters if you're not in an allegedly power conference is laughably high, and it trickles down (IMO) into seeding, playoff positioning and these ever-present rankings. It makes the FCS a shell of what it used to be in terms of intrigue: if you're a bubble team outside of the valley or Big Sky or not a CAA team who played JMU and will get brown points for losing, you may as well hang it up on selection sunday. That 6-5 (4-4) valley team is getting in over you; or it may be that 7-4 forgettable Big Sky/CAA team who played the soft part of the conference schedule, hadn't made the playoffs in years, will quickly exit (or get a token win over a soft NEC/patriot/pioneer team), and not return for a few more years (I say this as a fan of a team who hasn't met my expectations and only has one playoff win since 2017 - against arguably one of those CAA teams in 2018).

But then teams like APSU will pile drive a seeded Big Sky team and KSU will play them respectively, and people will be all surprised, but then it'll get memory holed. You'd think Sam Houston going on the run they did in the Spring (in spite of being mediocre from 2018-2019 in a second tier conference) would make people change their outlook, but NOPE.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Also everyone thought that Sam Houston State was garbage until literally this past March. I think KSU is good and non-Valley/Big Sky teams get more **** for losses to good Valley/Big Sky teams than those in conference play. For instance: in 2019 KSU played just as respectively against Weber as Montana did (even though Montana beat them like a drum in the regular season) - even though KSU had an ugly loss to Monmouth. Those possibilities are seen as normal for Montana, but the idea that, given the right circumstances, KSU couldn't pile drive WSU in the same way is just never discussed.

To be clear, if you're a gambler in the FCS playoffs, I wouldn't bet on KSU past the quarterfinals (if that far). But the standards of getting respect from FCS/AGS voters if you're not in an allegedly power conference is laughably high, and it trickles down (IMO) into seeding, playoff positioning and these ever-present rankings. It makes the FCS a shell of what it used to be in terms of intrigue: if you're a bubble team outside of the valley or Big Sky or not a CAA team who played JMU and will get brown points for losing, you may as well hang it up on selection sunday. That 6-5 (4-4) valley team is getting in over you; or it may be that 7-4 forgettable Big Sky/CAA team who played the soft part of the conference schedule, hadn't made the playoffs in years, will quickly exit (or get a token win over a soft NEC/patriot/pioneer team), and not return for a few more years (I say this as a fan of a team who hasn't met my expectations and only has one playoff win since 2017 - against arguably one of those CAA teams in 2018).

But then teams like APSU will pile drive a seeded Big Sky team and KSU will play them respectively, and people will be all surprised, but then it'll get memory holed. You'd think Sam Houston going on the run they did in the Spring (in spite of being mediocre from 2018-2019 in a second tier conference) would make people change their outlook, but NOPE.

Sorry, somewhat long post.

While I am not trying to belittle this (highlighted above) one bit, my question would be "How does one fix this?".

Also, do you mean to tell me that at one point, all conferences in FCS were equal?...there were no teams/conferences that stood above any others?...I doubt that.

In fact, from 1989-2001 (13 games), there were only 5 different national champions (Georgia Southern (4), Youngstown State (4), Marshall (2), Montana (2), and Massachusetts (1)), and these teams played 9 different opponents (Stephen F. Austin (1), Nevada (1), Marshall (3), Youngstown State (2), Boise State (1), Montana (2), McNeese (1), Georgia Southern (1), and Furman (1)). One will notice that the 4 teams constituting 92% (12/13) of the champions at this time also constitute 62% (8/13) of the runner-up spots. In other words, four teams constitute 77% of the teams that were in a championship game during that 13 game period.

By comparison, from 2009-2020 (11 games), there were 5 different national champions (Villanova (1), Eastern Washington (1), North Dakota State (8), James Madison (1), and Sam Houston (1)), and these teams played only 9 different opponents (Montana (1), Delaware (1), Sam Houston (2), Towson (1), Illinois State (1), Jacksonville State (1), Youngstown State (1), James Madison (1), Eastern Washington (1), and South Dakota State (1)). The 4 teams constituting 91% (10/11) of the champions only constitute 36% (4/11) of the runner-up spots. In this case, even with NDSU being a regular in the championship game, four teams only constitute 64% (14/22) of the teams in the championship game over this period. These numbers get even lower if we include the 2007 and 2008 games to make it a 13 game stretch. So one might argue there has actually been more parity and opportunities in the FCS during the last 11 years than there were basically through the 1990's.

I chose these periods, because they both had five different champions and nine different runner-ups during their respective stretches. As for conference participants, I have not broken this down (partly because I am not as familiar with the conference distribution throughout the 1990's), but you could likely substitute SoCon (earlier period) for Gateway/MVFC (later period), and you would observe about the same situation regarding teams getting into the playoffs (or playing for/winning the championship) not from the Big Sky, MVFC, CAA, or SoCon. In fact, I would predict it must have been even worse in the past, given the fewer number of playoff slots available.

So, I don't think the FCS is a shell of what it used to be in terms of intrigue...it is almost exactly the same FCS it used to be. The only thing that has not happened yet is that a few teams have not made the FBS jump. However, it took Georgia Southern 14 yr after its sixth national championship to go FBS. This means that, to stay on the timeline of the good ol' days of the FCS, NDSU should make the jump in about 2031. ;) And once this occurs, there will still be a few teams that will fill their void, a few conferences that will still dominate, and the FCS will continue to be exactly what it has been. So the question again is, "How does one fix this?" (the problem highlighted in your post).

[Reign of Terrier]

<clipped for spacing

My response would be, you're looking at the wrong measure and your sample is too big. Break it up by decades (90s-2000, 2000-2010, 2010-2020ish). Top of my head 2000-2010 had (I think) 7-8 champs.

There was more diversity in the 2000s than there was in the 2010, that's for certain. 2010 was the beginning of playoff expansion and that's what caused all the bad stuff.

I was going to write a signature long post, but it basically comes down to this:
1) playoff expansion in 2010 lowered the threshold from "reasons to keep teams out" (which the basic heuristic for a 16 team playoff) to "reasons to keep teams in." In essence, it's a lot harder/more subjective when you're arguing for quality wins in a subdivision that doesn't play many OOC games and many teams don't see each other outside of the playoffs. This, compared to the 16 team system where, if you didn't win 8 games, you almost certainly didn't get in
2) #1 has changed the internal logic of how we talk about letting teams in which relies upon on speculation more than anything.
3) The changed regionalization + size of the bracket makes teams have to fly cross country which creates IMO inconsistent outcomes (look at Maine 2018 for an example); this isn't as big of a problem for the western teams because they fly all the time
4) the best teams are going to always gravitate to the top. The issue non-power conference teams/fans are having is that conference affiliation is basically everything now. There is no suspense anymore if you're a bubble team in a non-power conference. Because you're not a bubble team, you're just out.

My solutions are pretty simple:
1) no polls until mid-October (long winded explanation)
2) Neutral site regional playoff games starting with the second round (I know I know, that's unpopular. And don't talk to me about profitability either, the NCAA is a nonprofit institution that makes billions and probably loses money on the FCS playoffs anyway - they could make it work if they cared enough)
3) Either expand the playoffs to be more inclusive or constrict it back to 16 (this won't happen, but it's the most practical thing)

[Preferred Walk-On]

My response would be, you're looking at the wrong measure and your sample is too big. Break it up by decades (90s-2000, 2000-2010, 2010-2020ish). Top of my head 2000-2010 had (I think) 7-8 champs.

There was more diversity in the 2000s than there was in the 2010, that's for certain. 2010 was the beginning of playoff expansion and that's what caused all the bad stuff.

I was going to write a signature long post, but it basically comes down to this:
1) playoff expansion in 2010 lowered the threshold from "reasons to keep teams out" (which the basic heuristic for a 16 team playoff) to "reasons to keep teams in." In essence, it's a lot harder/more subjective when you're arguing for quality wins in a subdivision that doesn't play many OOC games and many teams don't see each other outside of the playoffs. This, compared to the 16 team system where, if you didn't win 8 games, you almost certainly didn't get in
2) #1 has changed the internal logic of how we talk about letting teams in which relies upon on speculation more than anything.
3) The changed regionalization + size of the bracket makes teams have to fly cross country which creates IMO inconsistent outcomes (look at Maine 2018 for an example); this isn't as big of a problem for the western teams because they fly all the time
4) the best teams are going to always gravitate to the top. The issue non-power conference teams/fans are having is that conference affiliation is basically everything now. There is no suspense anymore if you're a bubble team in a non-power conference. Because you're not a bubble team, you're just out.

My solutions are pretty simple:
1) no polls until mid-October (long winded explanation)
2) Neutral site regional playoff games starting with the second round (I know I know, that's unpopular. And don't talk to me about profitability either, the NCAA is a nonprofit institution that makes billions and probably loses money on the FCS playoffs anyway - they could make it work if they cared enough)
3) Either expand the playoffs to be more inclusive or constrict it back to 16 (this won't happen, but it's the most practical thing)

It was broken up by decades, two of them; however, you ignored the 1990's, and I am just curious why?

Replies to your "it comes down to this":
1. So expansion has led to fewer teams outside the P5 (MVFC, Big Sky, CAA, SoCon, AQ7; this is what I will call them for the purposes of this post) getting in? I would need to see the proof on that one.
2. Opinion.
3. The travel argument is tiresome. It is unfortunate that not all the teams in the playoffs are from the east/west and therefore require some travel. Maine is a one-off, and is not a large enough sample size to make that argument.
4. Conference affiliations are changing, but not in favor of the non-P5. So how do you make the playoffs more inclusive (that was, after all, the original question)? You have said it needs to be done; however, you have provided very little in the way of realistic solution (below).

Replies to "my solutions":
1. OK, no polls until mid-October, but then what. What if your favorite non-P5 team is not ranked due to the same arguments for ranking teams above them at that point? Still have the same problem.
2. Neutral sites - I am not opposed, and I even think having a COVID-like designation of playoff locations could assist in this. Also, paying the higher seed monies they might have made hosting a home playoff game might also help gain a bit of favor for this one. I agree that they could make it work, but the reality is that they (the NCAA) won't, so I think one should focus on realistic solutions.
3. Constricting the playoffs will still get the same argument of whether a team outside the P5 is worthy, the number of conferences will still be the same, the regulation determining autobids will still be there, so...there will be less at-larges to assist in this endeavor. Expanding the playoffs? Well, I suppose with 32 teams (basically, 1/4 of the entire FCS) and no first-round byes for anyone, this could work and still get in the games just before Christmas. However, since the NCAA is not going to fund the games as such, I don't know realistically how feasible an additional 8 games is.

I don't think any of the solutions you propose are realistic (for good or bad reasons). If one wants to argue the merits of teams that don't play P5 conference schedules, then they need to play P5 conference opponents in the non-conference season (basically the first 1/3 of the regular season). The only way this is happening where top opponents from one conference are matched against top opponents of other conferences is for these dates to be held open (not allowed to schedule an FBS or creampuff) and for the NCAA to have a scheduling plan for these games (one cannot rely on teams and their athletic departments to make this happen for a number of reasons). We need Kennesaw State to play a top-tier MVFC team, then play a top-tier Big Sky, then follow that with a top-tier AQ7, then a creampuff, if they wish. Same for "insert team name" here. The reasons teams are not taken as seriously from non-P5 FCS are the same reasons they are not taken seriously from non-P5 in the FBS. In fact, the problem you mention applies to ALL football divisions, from FBS to DIII/NAIA. Some really good teams from not-highly regarded conferences get left out...fair or not.

[atthewbon]

I don't see why people say there shouldn't be polls until October. What's the problem with these polls? They help generate excitement and get people talking about the fcs. They might not be the most accurate until later in the season but not only are they corrected as the season goes on, the polls don't matter for the playoffs (besides for the coaches which I agree shouldn't be used for many reasons. I personally don't think the committee really takes much of a look at them bc it would be so stupid if they do).

I also don't think neutral site games for the playoffs are a good idea. Games on campus are way more fun and will have much higher attendance. I don't like how teams bid for home field advantage in the first round, I wish the committee would seed every team but idk how likely that is to happen.

[Preferred Walk-On]

I don't see why people say there shouldn't be polls until October. What's the problem with these polls? They help generate excitement and get people talking about the fcs. They might not be the most accurate until later in the season but not only are they corrected as the season goes on, the polls don't matter for the playoffs (besides for the coaches which I agree shouldn't be used for many reasons. I personally don't think the committee really takes much of a look at them bc it would be so stupid if they do).

I also don't think neutral site games for the playoffs are a good idea. Games on campus are way more fun and will have much higher attendance. I don't like how teams bid for home field advantage in the first round, I wish the committee would seed every team but idk how likely that is to happen.

Honestly, regionalization is THE thing that takes "intrigue" out of it. When you end up playing teams in the 1st and 2nd round that you have already played that season and/or play every season, it is tiresome. Seeding all teams would add excitement to the playoffs.

[Katfan]

Seed every team. But I don’t think that happens because of potential added travel cost.

limit conference bids to 3 or 4. No 4 or 5 bid out of a conference is going to win and neither is the team that gets in but getting in helps the teams from the non “power” conferences build their programs.

this year seems to be more wide open with more teams that I think have a legitimate chance to win in all than any time in the last 15 years, so why mess with anything it seems to be working.

[atthewbon]

Honestly, regionalization is THE thing that takes "intrigue" out of it. When you end up playing teams in the 1st and 2nd round that you have already played that season and/or play every season, it is tiresome. Seeding all teams would add excitement to the playoffs.

Yea the regionalization sucks. It would make the playoffs much more fair to get rid of it and just seed everyone. It would also be so much more interesting to play other teams from all around the country. I feel like the regionalization hasn't been quite as bad in recent years (at least from an SDSU perspective) it just doesn't seem like it actually saves that much money (admittedly I know nothing about how any of this costs).

[HootyHoo]

I don't think any of the solutions you propose are realistic (for good or bad reasons). If one wants to argue the merits of teams that don't play P5 conference schedules, then they need to play P5 conference opponents in the non-conference season (basically the first 1/3 of the regular season). The only way this is happening where top opponents from one conference are matched against top opponents of other conferences is for these dates to be held open (not allowed to schedule an FBS or creampuff) and for the NCAA to have a scheduling plan for these games (one cannot rely on teams and their athletic departments to make this happen for a number of reasons). We need Kennesaw State to play a top-tier MVFC team, then play a top-tier Big Sky, then follow that with a top-tier AQ7, then a creampuff, if they wish. Same for "insert team name" here. The reasons teams are not taken as seriously from non-P5 FCS are the same reasons they are not taken seriously from non-P5 in the FBS. In fact, the problem you mention applies to ALL football divisions, from FBS to DIII/NAIA. Some really good teams from not-highly regarded conferences get left out...fair or not.

This is such BS. So KSU needs to fly up to Montana and the Dakotas in the first month to prove themselves. The fact is KSU did schedule against P5 opponents. Wofford and JSU are legit programs. It’s not the Owls fault they are terrible this season.

Kennesaw State played Weber St, South Dakota St, Sam Houston in the postseason and were competitive. These results are never talked about. KSU has proven itself enough.

[atthewbon]

This is such BS. So KSU needs to fly up to Montana and the Dakotas in the first month to prove themselves. The fact is KSU did schedule against P5 opponents. Wofford and JSU are legit programs. It’s not the Owls fault they are terrible this season.

Kennesaw State played Weber St, South Dakota St, Sam Houston in the postseason and were competitive. These results are never talked about. KSU has proven itself enough.

I think a large part of the reason Kennesaw isn't ranked very high this year was the Reinhardt game. Whether it's right or wrong I think that left a bit of a sour taste in peoples mouth, causing them to drop them early in the season. You have to give credit to KSU for scheduling tough teams it just sucks this year that Wofford and Jacksonville st haven't been very good. I still think KSU should be ranked, I had them ranked in the AGS poll and could easily see them climbing. They're a fun team to watch play.

[Preferred Walk-On]

This is such BS. So KSU needs to fly up to Montana and the Dakotas in the first month to prove themselves. The fact is KSU did schedule against P5 opponents. Wofford and JSU are legit programs. It’s not the Owls fault they are terrible this season.

Kennesaw State played Weber St, South Dakota St, Sam Houston in the postseason and were competitive. These results are never talked about. KSU has proven itself enough.

Who said they needed to fly up to anywhere? Although I will say that NDSU always schedules more home games than away games, and if this comes at the expense of not scheduling Kennesaw, they do not bat an eye at that. I was actually saying that someone (the NCAA?) needs to make this determination to actually make it happen, because athletic departments are not going to...they will do what is best for themselves, and themselves only.

Also, I don't think this is the same Kennesaw State team that lost to Weber, SDSU, or SHSU, is it. Same roster? The moral victories you mentioned aside (hey that is the MVFC's thing), everyone knows that Kennesaw has been successful the past few seasons against the SoCon and OVC, but here's the question flipped. How successful would Northern Iowa (for instance) be in the Big South? How about Montana State (for instance)? New Hampshire (for instance)? I have tried to pick teams that are traditionally 3-5th in their conferences in the past few years, and I think they would have been pretty damned successful playing the Big South schedule. Schedule outside of the SoCon and OVC, please and thank you. I know there are a lot of factors that go into that last statement that KSU cannot control...I get it. However, you cannot be upset when teams that go through an 8-game meatgrinder are given consideration. Or perhaps it is better put this way, being upset about teams going through an 8-game meatgrinder getting consideration rings hollow with more people than it does not.

[Reign of Terrier]

I don't see why people say there shouldn't be polls until October. What's the problem with these polls? They help generate excitement and get people talking about the fcs. They might not be the most accurate until later in the season but not only are they corrected as the season goes on, the polls don't matter for the playoffs (besides for the coaches which I agree shouldn't be used for many reasons. I personally don't think the committee really takes much of a look at them bc it would be so stupid if they do).

I also don't think neutral site games for the playoffs are a good idea. Games on campus are way more fun and will have much higher attendance. I don't like how teams bid for home field advantage in the first round, I wish the committee would seed every team but idk how likely that is to happen.

The problem is that because of conference bias that is real (whether because of the conference sympathies of the voter or the weird logic that an expanded field creates that I alluded to) makes it so some voters literally won't drop a team from the valley even if they're 1-4 or so. I remember a few years ago Youngstown was roughly that record but was a few plays form being 5-0 (or something like that) and so voters on AGS and other places *refused* to drop them from the top 25. Compare that to a team like JSU at their prime or KSU now where they're scheduling tough OOC, winning those games (even if winning ugly) and they still don't get respect because those teams (like JSU/Wofford this year) aren't great. KSU can't help that the teams they schedule thinking they are good end up not being good, meanwhile a program like YSU will get a participation trophy that will anchor their perception (and what teams that beat them are perceived as) for the entire season.

It's not fair, it's not accurate. Don't rank until October.


Honestly, regionalization is THE thing that takes "intrigue" out of it. When you end up playing teams in the 1st and 2nd round that you have already played that season and/or play every season, it is tiresome. Seeding all teams would add excitement to the playoffs.

Exactly. I probably need to edit that post and add full field seeding, I don't know how I forgot that.


Seed every team. But I don’t think that happens because of potential added travel cost.

limit conference bids to 3 or 4. No 4 or 5 bid out of a conference is going to win and neither is the team that gets in but getting in helps the teams from the non “power” conferences build their programs.

this year seems to be more wide open with more teams that I think have a legitimate chance to win in all than any time in the last 15 years, so why mess with anything it seems to be working.

Again, good catch, I forgot to mention seeding the full field.

I will point out that I don't think there are more than 5 or so teams that can win it this year (and my team is not one of them!). My problem is that this whole FCS playoffs thing gets really boring when my team has to play either KSU or a conference opponent every year in the first round. I almost miss getting rewarded with a top 10 finish by getting shipped to Montana.


This is such BS. So KSU needs to fly up to Montana and the Dakotas in the first month to prove themselves. The fact is KSU did schedule against P5 opponents. Wofford and JSU are legit programs. It’s not the Owls fault they are terrible this season.

Kennesaw State played Weber St, South Dakota St, Sam Houston in the postseason and were competitive. These results are never talked about. KSU has proven itself enough.

Hooty to me is "worst person you know makes an excellent point." I'm annoyed at him and he's trollish but he's right!

It's not Kennesaw State's fault that Wofford and Jacksonville State aren't good this year. They (and other non-"big 3" conference teams who perform at a relative high level) are put in this very impossible position where the goal posts keep getting changed. They don't just have to win every single one of their games, they also need to blow them. And these games are scheduled years in advanced.

If you told the random FCS follower that KSU would play Wofford and JSU in 2021 in the year 2018 or 2019 and asked them "if they win those games, should they be highly seeded" the answer would be an unequivocal yes. But now because those teams aren't good, the goal posts are moved to "well you see, you have to schedule a big sky or MVFC team" (which btw KSU did in 2019 or so and won, but didn't blow out, and it was MSU, but I digress).

It's just so blatantly unfair Calvinball. And at the same time, a nobody program like Sac State can waltz in, have one decent victory in the regular season and get seeded, and then have a disappointing performance in the playoffs and an early exit, and it's just memory holed. It's so so so obviously unfair, it's actually kind of laughable. (I'm picking on them not because they didn't deserve that seed - maybe they did given that they beat two good ranked teams, but a bad blowout was held against them less mercifully than any loss a southeastern team experienced at that time...conference losses happen, but they're only excusable in 2-3 conferences)

I'm at the laughing at it (and not mad at it) because I think it's a marginal point. KSU, Wofford, Jacksonville State, etc aren't national title contenders in my book, but we're basically forfeited the opportunity to have at least have fun with it by playing teams other than each other when we get into the playoffs, or have a home game, etc. We're told to be perfect and knocked out when we aren't while very imperfect teams get to play NEC/pioneer/patriot teams or get a bye because of the conference they play in. I'm not mad (I promise xbawlingx lol) because I don't think my team is a national title team (or was anywhere close in the last decade), but it's just so obvious at this point that I don't feel like arguing it with anyone who disagrees with what I just said.

TL;DR the bracket is good at determining the best teams but damn, it is so boring if you're not an elite team or a close follower of the MVFC. That wasn't true 10 or so years ago.

[HootyHoo]

I agree with a lot of what Reign said. He makes a great point with Sac St. I wonder if the creation of the WAC/ASUN will change this dynamic? A new P5 that is more on equal footing would be healthy for the division.

[atthewbon]

The problem is that because of conference bias that is real (whether because of the conference sympathies of the voter or the weird logic that an expanded field creates that I alluded to) makes it so some voters literally won't drop a team from the valley even if they're 1-4 or so. I remember a few years ago Youngstown was roughly that record but was a few plays form being 5-0 (or something like that) and so voters on AGS and other places *refused* to drop them from the top 25. Compare that to a team like JSU at their prime or KSU now where they're scheduling tough OOC, winning those games (even if winning ugly) and they still don't get respect because those teams (like JSU/Wofford this year) aren't great. KSU can't help that the teams they schedule thinking they are good end up not being good, meanwhile a program like YSU will get a participation trophy that will anchor their perception (and what teams that beat them are perceived as) for the entire season.

It's not fair, it's not accurate. Don't rank until October.

Why does it matter what the AGS poll says for the first few weeks of the season it's not like it affects the playoffs. When I do the ranking I largely base who I rank as who I think the best teams are (not necessarily the best record) if I think a 2-2 or 1-3 MVFC team would destroy a 3-1 or 4-0 team that hasn't beaten anyone good which I often do, I'm going to rank them higher. (I have North Dakota (2-2) ranked way ahead of schools like Duquesne and Mercer (3-1 with fbs losses)). While there is definitely a bias toward the "big three" among top 25 voters it's because they do better in the playoffs (the last time a non "big three" or Sam Houston made the semifinals was 2015). The poll is a great way to create discussion and doesn't have any negative effects on the playoffs. I don't think the committee should be ranking teams every week because of the issues you mentioned, and they don't.

[caribbeanhen]

If Kennesaw ever won a big game the discussion would be over, but they haven’t won a big game so here we are until Hooty makes his Irish exit from here again

[FUBeAR]

FUBeAR can’t help but wonder if the terms “Stacked Deck” and/or “Self-fulfilling Prophesy” might have relevance in conversations around Playoff Performance & Perceived Conference Strength.

[Reign of Terrier]

Why does it matter what the AGS poll says for the first few weeks of the season it's not like it affects the playoffs. When I do the ranking I largely base who I rank as who I think the best teams are (not necessarily the best record) if I think a 2-2 or 1-3 MVFC team would destroy a 3-1 or 4-0 team that hasn't beaten anyone good which I often do, I'm going to rank them higher. (I have North Dakota (2-2) ranked way ahead of schools like Duquesne and Mercer (3-1 with fbs losses)). While there is definitely a bias toward the "big three" among top 25 voters it's because they do better in the playoffs (the last time a non "big three" or Sam Houston made the semifinals was 2015). The poll is a great way to create discussion and doesn't have any negative effects on the playoffs. I don't think the committee should be ranking teams every week because of the issues you mentioned, and they don't.

It's not just AGS. It's Stats, it's Sagarin, and all these other polls and computer rankings.


If Kennesaw ever won a big game the discussion would be over, but they haven’t won a big game so here we are until Hooty makes his Irish exit from here again


FUBeAR can’t help but wonder if the terms “Stacked Deck” and/or “Self-fulfilling Prophesy” might have relevance in conversations around Playoff Performance & Perceived Conference Strength.

Let's take ETSU for example. They're in the top 15, sure. But a socon team even 5 years ago with their resume (beating an FBS team, undefeated, beating a solid program like Wofford even if down, outscoring a hatcher offense) would get them in the solid top 10. The same can be said about KSU. Yeah, they had a bad showing against Rhienhardt (I misspelled but don't care), but they scheduled two programs that are top 15 in the last 7 years or so and whipped them.

Because the goal posts are constantly changing, if you're a Big Sky or MVFC fan or "big time FCS Follower" (see: gambler, but I digress) the position that teams in other conferences shouldn't be ranked higher is impossible to falsify. A new team goes through this yearly cycle (it happened to Wofford from 2016-2019, it's happening to KSU now):

Year 1: some impressive wins against a conference incumbent champion - they may get an at large bid. If they do, they make a nice little run to the second round or quarterfinals before they're shipped to play a quality top 5 program. They lose, but maybe the game is close. Regardless, it's memory holed.
Year 2: they're the incumbent now, but the conference champ they beat is somehow inferior now and not ranked as high, and paradoxically the win against them isn't as impressive. They'll get the autobid or an at large off rep. This year, this team makes it to the second round or quarterfinals, with a similar outcome as before
Year 3: Welp, guess what: you're no longer the novel product for the FCS. You have to win big games, but the problem is they're not on your schedule. You lucked out and got one good OOC game scheduled from when you weren't notable, but the problem is that program you scheduled years ago is kind of garbage and so no one cares. If you lose a game, it's because you're overrated, not because of conference play craziness or (god forbid) the conference you play in is a little better than people think.

The fact is, outside of the Big Sky and MVFC, most of the FCS really doesn't get the opportunity to play a top 4 or so team until they're in the playoffs. Many times, top rated teams are just...overrated? So an MVFC/Big Sky team may get credit in the polls for beating an overrated conference opponent, inflating their ranking.

Now, let's contrast the above cycle with the "mediocre Big Sky/CAA/5th place MVFC team"

Year 1: you're mediocre to awful. Forgettable.
Year 2: you get a new coach, maybe a flashy new player, maybe you just get the soft part of the schedule that avoids the top tier programs of your conference (think CAA/Big Sky). You get one or two solid conference wins against a traditional team that may be overrated, it's too early to say, but it still counts. You get an 8 seed and a bye. You lose your opening game in the playoffs.

The alternative, less charitable version of this is "you don't get a seed, because you finished 4-4 in conference play and because you got an upset against a traditional power, the committee looks past your garbage awful loss to 2 mediocre conference teams and puts you in. You beat a team in the playoffs that doesn't normally make the playoffs or is just inferior (like a pioneer/patriot/etc). In your second game, you travel to a seeded team and get curb stomped.

Year 3: you're back to being mediocre.

I've been watching FCS Football for over a decade and the above cycles have developed big time over the last 5 years. It's not fun anymore. Sure, I think NDSU, JMU, SDSU, etc are pretty much immune to these problems because they are the best (brackets are great for finding the best teams, regardless of rank order). But for everyone else the culture around FCS prognostication and playoff position is just broken. We basically give teams participation trophies for the conference they play in or we hold things against teams for things they can't control, like schedules that don't live up to the hype.

[MR. CHICKEN]

It's not just AGS. It's Stats, it's Sagarin, and all these other polls and computer rankings.





Let's take ETSU for example. They're in the top 15, sure. But a socon team even 5 years ago with their resume (beating an FBS team, undefeated, beating a solid program like Wofford even if down, outscoring a hatcher offense) would get them in the solid top 10. The same can be said about KSU. Yeah, they had a bad showing against Rhienhardt (I misspelled but don't care), but they scheduled two programs that are top 15 in the last 7 years or so and whipped them.

Because the goal posts are constantly changing, if you're a Big Sky or MVFC fan or "big time FCS Follower" (see: gambler, but I digress) the position that teams in other conferences shouldn't be ranked higher is impossible to falsify. A new team goes through this yearly cycle (it happened to Wofford from 2016-2019, it's happening to KSU now):

Year 1: some impressive wins against a conference incumbent champion - they may get an at large bid. If they do, they make a nice little run to the second round or quarterfinals before they're shipped to play a quality top 5 program. They lose, but maybe the game is close. Regardless, it's memory holed.
Year 2: they're the incumbent now, but the conference champ they beat is somehow inferior now and not ranked as high, and paradoxically the win against them isn't as impressive. They'll get the autobid or an at large off rep. This year, this team makes it to the second round or quarterfinals, with a similar outcome as before
Year 3: Welp, guess what: you're no longer the novel product for the FCS. You have to win big games, but the problem is they're not on your schedule. You lucked out and got one good OOC game scheduled from when you weren't notable, but the problem is that program you scheduled years ago is kind of garbage and so no one cares. If you lose a game, it's because you're overrated, not because of conference play craziness or (god forbid) the conference you play in is a little better than people think.

The fact is, outside of the Big Sky and MVFC, most of the FCS really doesn't get the opportunity to play a top 4 or so team until they're in the playoffs. Many times, top rated teams are just...overrated? So an MVFC/Big Sky team may get credit in the polls for beating an overrated conference opponent, inflating their ranking.

Now, let's contrast the above cycle with the "mediocre Big Sky/CAA/5th place MVFC team"

Year 1: you're mediocre to awful. Forgettable.
Year 2: you get a new coach, maybe a flashy new player, maybe you just get the soft part of the schedule that avoids the top tier programs of your conference (think CAA/Big Sky). You get one or two solid conference wins against a traditional team that may be overrated, it's too early to say, but it still counts. You get an 8 seed and a bye. You lose your opening game in the playoffs.

The alternative, less charitable version of this is "you don't get a seed, because you finished 4-4 in conference play and because you got an upset against a traditional power, the committee looks past your garbage awful loss to 2 mediocre conference teams and puts you in. You beat a team in the playoffs that doesn't normally make the playoffs or is just inferior (like a pioneer/patriot/etc). In your second game, you travel to a seeded team and get curb stomped.

Year 3: you're back to being mediocre.

I've been watching FCS Football for over a decade and the above cycles have developed big time over the last 5 years. It's not fun anymore. Sure, I think NDSU, JMU, SDSU, etc are pretty much immune to these problems because they are the best (brackets are great for finding the best teams, regardless of rank order). But for everyone else the culture around FCS prognostication and playoff position is just broken. We basically give teams participation trophies for the conference they play in or we hold things against teams for things they can't control, like schedules that don't live up to the hype.


......DUH NCAA....IS ABOUT.......DUH COLLEGE EXPERIENCE.........SO DUH SAN DIEGO'S UH DUH LANDSCAPE........GET TA ENJOY..........WHAT........NORFF DAKOTA STATE DOES..........IFIN' UH FORTH/FIFTH TEAM IN POWER CONFERENCES....GET LEFT OUT.......SHOODAH DONE DUH WORK.........AWK!

[Reign of Terrier]

......DUH NCAA....IS ABOUT.......DUH COLLEGE EXPERIENCE.........SO DUH SAN DIEGO'S UH DUH LANDSCAPE........GET TA ENJOY..........WHAT........NORFF DAKOTA STATE DOES..........IFIN' UH FORTH/FIFTH TEAM IN POWER CONFERENCES....GET LEFT OUT.......SHOODAH DONE DUH WORK.........AWK!

And that's how it used to be. When it was a 16 playoff, in 2002 the Socon got 3 in but should have gotten 4. Wofford got left out at 9-3, including wins at App and Georgia Southern (playoff teams). That was one of the most controversial things of that era. But the reasoning was pretty simple: don't lose to VMI. It was the worst loss of all 4 teams.

Nowadays, we talk more about quality wins and reasons to let teams *in* to the playoffs, as opposed to keeping them *out.* And IMO that's the reason why it's poisonous. Things get murkier after the second or third place team in every conference (it's hard to sparse the difference between 2 7-4 teams in a conference when one beats the other, but the beaten team has more mutual quality wins, and it's even harder to extrapolate that comparison to other conference).

So the committee, for the sake of consistency about what it views as quality wins/losses has to let the bubble teams in supposed power conference in over the other ones. And later on, it gets more justified over time because those teams will innevitibly win some games or play respectively. TBH I see the 2nd or 3rd place team of the second tier conferences (when those conference have a 2nd or 3rd quality team!) as interchangeable with the 4th and fifth of the top tier, and in the grand scheme of things they progress just as far in the playoff (rarely getting past the second round - I think maybe UNI or someone else once got to the quarters, but that was pretty much it?).

But because of the aforementioned dynamics, tier one conference gets let in, performs as you'd expect, and in future prognostication and rankings, it's evidence of how good they are (because the other team didn't get a chance). It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, as FU_bear said. And it's boring.

[MSUBobcat]

This is such BS. So KSU needs to fly up to Montana and the Dakotas in the first month to prove themselves. The fact is KSU did schedule against P5 opponents. Wofford and JSU are legit programs. It’s not the Owls fault they are terrible this season.

Kennesaw State played Weber St, South Dakota St, Sam Houston in the postseason and were competitive. These results are never talked about. KSU has proven itself enough.

This excuse is so tired and played out. No, it is not KSU's fault that 2 legit programs are having down years. That's the risk you take when you schedule out years in advance, and in any given year, the same thing happens. Do you think Sam Houston expected SEMO to be the team they are this year, or the one that went to the playoffs in 2018 and 2019? Kudos to KSU for attempting to schedule a tough OOC, unfortunately Wofford and JSU didn't hold up their end of the bargain. You don't get the credit for a quality win because you thought they were going to be a quality opponent. KSU struggled a bit against an NAIA school, got thumped by FBS Georgia Tech (no biggie) and soundly beat 2 teams that.... aren't having good years. They are ranked #21. With the body of work and people's "eye test", that seems about right. With current knowledge, on a neutral field, I would pick every team above KSU to beat them, except UCA, and perhaps UIW and Rhody (who will either prove they deserve to be above KSU this weekend or will no longer be ranked above them). Keep winning, let the higher ranked teams cannibalize themselves or even trip up by an upset, and the Owls will keep rising. So much hand-wringing over an early season poll.

[atthewbon]

[QUOTE=Reign of Terrier;2999754
So the committee, for the sake of consistency about what it views as quality wins/losses has to let the bubble teams in supposed power conference in over the other ones. And later on, it gets more justified over time because those teams will innevitibly win some games or play respectively. TBH I see the 2nd or 3rd place team of the second tier conferences (when those conference have a 2nd or 3rd quality team!) as interchangeable with the 4th and fifth of the top tier, and in the grand scheme of things they progress just as far in the playoff (rarely getting past the second round - I think maybe UNI or someone else once got to the quarters, but that was pretty much it?).[/QUOTE]

I wanted to take a look at this and turns out you're right second and third place SOCON teams do about as well as a fourth or fifth placed MVFC teams in the playoffs (3-6 for MVFC 4-5 for SOCON over the last 5 years). But they also get into the playoffs about as frequently (4+5 place MVFC teams have a total of 6 appearances since 2016, 2+3 place SOCON teams also have 6). So I think this shows the committee is doing a pretty good job at balancing who should be in the playoffs.

Here is the rough data I compiled since 2016 (this may not be 100% correct, I tried my best):




MVFC standings
total record
byes
lost to conference
appearances


1st
14-2
4
0
5


2nd
7-5
3
3
5


3rd
9-5
0
2
5


4th
1-4
1
1
4


5th
2-2
0
1
2









SOCON standings






1st
2-5
2
1
5


2nd
1-3
0
0
4


3rd
3-2
0
1
2


4th
0-1
0
0
1



I find it odd how the third place MVFC teams seem to do very well (a lot of that was YSU in 2016 but no third place valley team has not gotten a win in the playoffs in the 5 years I looked at). If you look at just the last three years the fourth and fifth place valley teams are (2-3) with two of the three losses coming to other valley teams while the SOCON is (0,2). This makes it appear that the gap is widening between the MVFC and SOCON but it is a way to small sample size to say anything concrete.

[Reign of Terrier]

This excuse is so tired and played out. No, it is not KSU's fault that 2 legit programs are having down years. That's the risk you take when you schedule out years in advance, and in any given year, the same thing happens. Do you think Sam Houston expected SEMO to be the team they are this year, or the one that went to the playoffs in 2018 and 2019? Kudos to KSU for attempting to schedule a tough OOC, unfortunately Wofford and JSU didn't hold up their end of the bargain. You don't get the credit for a quality win because you thought they were going to be a quality opponent. KSU struggled a bit against an NAIA school, got thumped by FBS Georgia Tech (no biggie) and soundly beat 2 teams that.... aren't having good years. They are ranked #21. With the body of work and people's "eye test", that seems about right. With current knowledge, on a neutral field, I would pick every team above KSU to beat them, except UCA, and perhaps UIW and Rhody (who will either prove they deserve to be above KSU this weekend or will no longer be ranked above them). Keep winning, let the higher ranked teams cannibalize themselves or even trip up by an upset, and the Owls will keep rising. So much hand-wringing over an early season poll.

No one is saying that KSU should get quality win points for beating not-great teams, I'm just saying stop giving third place or below MVFC/Big Sky teams brownie points for the subjective and unfalsifiable "eye test." It's a participation trophy.

Because quite frankly, we shouldn't be doing stuff like ranking YSU really high for being 1-4 (or whatever it was in 2017/2018) but "looking good" against quality teams but pedantically squinting down KSU in 2021 in spite of being 3-1 and having a pretty long record of success over the last 5 years.

In a way, you're proving my point: the FCS playoff discussion because the goal posts are changing from "saying bad things about teams in discussion" to "only saying good things about teams in discussion." And when you define the only "good wins" as being exclusive to three conferences, that's a broken discussion.

It's out of KSU's hands that their schedule is weak, but it's so vapid to tear them down for winning.


I wanted to take a look at this and turns out you're right second and third place SOCON teams do about as well as a fourth or fifth placed MVFC teams in the playoffs (3-6 for MVFC 4-5 for SOCON over the last 5 years). But they also get into the playoffs about as frequently (4+5 place MVFC teams have a total of 6 appearances since 2016, 2+3 place SOCON teams also have 6). So I think this shows the committee is doing a pretty good job at balancing who should be in the playoffs.

Here is the rough data I compiled since 2016 (this may not be 100% correct, I tried my best):




MVFC standings
total record
byes
lost to conference
appearances


1st
14-2
4
0
5


2nd
7-5
3
3
5


3rd
9-5
0
2
5


4th
1-4
1
1
4


5th
2-2
0
1
2









SOCON standings






1st
2-5
2
1
5


2nd
1-3
0
0
4


3rd
3-2
0
1
2


4th
0-1
0
0
1



I find it odd how the third place MVFC teams seem to do very well (a lot of that was YSU in 2016 but no third place valley team has not gotten a win in the playoffs in the 5 years I looked at). If you look at just the last three years the fourth and fifth place valley teams are (2-3) with two of the three losses coming to other valley teams while the SOCON is (0,2). This makes it appear that the gap is widening between the MVFC and SOCON but it is a way to small sample size to say anything concrete.

Good stuff, I don't think the Socon is comparable to the MVFC because I think the MVFC is good.

My whole point is that we're operating under assumptions based on limited data points. The question is not "could the socon/MVFC team win games in the playoffs" it's "are the non-top teams admitted to the playoffs more likely to get farther" and "are we so certain of that belief that we will deny quality teams with better records (think a 7-4 or 8-3 non-mvfc/big sky team against a 6-5 mvfc/big sky team) to create that outcome"

Because to me, the answer to one is "there's good reason they'll get marginally farther, but not by much" and "no, it's unfair to tell one conference they have to be near perfect (winning 8+ games per year) and another they just need to break even (4-4 conference records in the MVFC getting in is just laughably corrupt IMO)

[HootyHoo]

I do think that the OVC/Southland/SOCON bear some responsibility for the current state of affairs. The quality of play tanked in these leagues over the last decade. Obviously GA Southern and App State leaving the FCS hurt the region as a whole, but no program stepped up to fill the void. Voters have adjusted to this new reality.

However, a new power is rising. KSU will be THE southern program in this division. It also helps that the region is consolidating it's talent into fewer leagues. The OVC and the Southland need to die for the good of the FCS. The remaining schools will be divvied up among the ASUN/WAC.

[atthewbon]

I do think that the OVC/Southland/SOCON bear some responsibility for the current state of affairs. The quality of play tanked in these leagues over the last decade. Obviously GA Southern and App State leaving the FCS hurt the region as a whole, but no program stepped up to fill the void. Voters have adjusted to this new reality.

However, a new power is rising. KSU will be THE southern program in this division. It also helps that the region is consolidating it's talent into fewer leagues. The OVC and the Southland need to die for the good of the FCS. The remaining schools will be divvied up among the ASUN/WAC.

I think you’re right that the teams in the south seem to be consolidating and that it will be a good thing for them. The SOCON, WAC, and ASUN could wind up creating a “power six” in the fcs that could have a pretty substantial drop off from the 6th to 7th best conference. Obviously there is still a lot that needs to happen for them to achieve this and there are a lot of question marks that need answers. One being what happens with the CAA if JMU leaves, do they split up and how would that effect the landscape? There seem to be rumors there is a pretty big divide among the members on their commitment level to football.

[WestCoastAggie]

We’re a one bid league this year. SMH.

[HootyHoo]

We’re a one bid league this year. SMH.

And it will be ours.

[Reign of Terrier]

And it will be ours.

Worst person you know makes a great point.

[WestCoastAggie]

And it will be ours.

👀

[Houndawg]

You mistake me, good sir. I respect JSU as a program and your fanbase is loyal. They stayed to the bitter end today and i commend them for that. And your band is sweet. Unfortunately, your team seems to be undisciplined this season. This thread is about the absolute disrespect KSU has experienced on this board.

I do not think KSU is the best team in the country. They do not have the best resume. The best team in the country(by far) is South Dakota St. But I do not think it is trolling to say that the Owls do not deserve to be ranked 36th. That's frankly ridiculous. Top 20 easily.

Must be Halfwit Day at AGS. But he is right about KSU not deserving to be ranked 36th, they're not even in the Top 50. Hell they were lucky to get by SIU even with all those extra scholarships....

[Houndawg]

It looks to be a top heavy league this season with Monmouth, A&T, and KSU clearly the best teams. Monmouth has the best offense: Greene, Farr, and Muskett give them a lot of firepower. Now apparently, they don't play well against non-conference opponents(see Holy Cross) but I'm sure they will look like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when they play Kennesaw.

KSU seems to be back to its winning ways this season with a new star QB Xavier Shepherd leading the way. The defense has restocked the cupboard with 4 transfer starters. The Owls are in the top 6 in FCS in TOP, Total defense, fewest penalties, and rushing offense. A disciplined group that doesn't beat itself.

And then there is the wild card A&T. I admit I know very little except you are a proud program that plays a hardnosed brand of football. I'm excited to see how the Aggies matchup vs the Birds. We haven't had a three team race for the conference title in a few years. Should be fun.

xcoffeex

[kalm]

Sac state’s early exit is too small of a sample size.

Playoff selections are resume driven as they should be.

Some conferences produce better resumes than others.

Some East Coast resumes are buoyed by D1 counter games against teams that are no better than elite DII’s.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Sac state’s early exit is too small of a sample size.

Playoff selections are resume driven as they should be.

Some conferences produce better resumes than others.

Some East Coast resumes are buoyed by D1 counter games against teams that are no better than elite DII’s.

....DON'T THINK DELAWARE's DUBBYA OVERAH ST. FRANCIS....WOWS DUH COMMITTEE......ANYMO'....THAN...MONTANA's' OVERAH DIXIE STATE......AWK!

[kalm]

....DON'T THINK DELAWARE's DUBBYA OVERAH ST. FRANCIS....WOWS DUH COMMITTEE......ANYMO'....THAN...MONTANA's' OVERAH DIXIE STATE......AWK!

I’m talking historically.

[HootyHoo]

I’m talking historically.

Historically? so the last decade. I was wondering when someone would bring up Montana vs Dixie State. Wasn't the score like 3-0 at half? Tisk Tisk...

[kalm]

Historically? so the last decade. I was wondering when someone would bring up Montana vs Dixie State. Wasn't the score like 3-0 at half? Tisk Tisk...

Let me know when a Big South or SoCon makes it out of the quarters.

[MSUBobcat]

Sac state’s early exit is too small of a sample size.

Playoff selections are resume driven as they should be.

Some conferences produce better resumes than others.

Some East Coast resumes are buoyed by D1 counter games against teams that are no better than elite DII’s.

Not only is it too small of a sample size but giving Sac State the #4 and MSU the #5 seeds was probably a fairly narrow difference. MSU went 9-2 against FCS competition with OOC wins over playoff SEMO, a bad WIU and a meh Norfolk State, while Sac went 8-1 vs FCS with the only FCS OOC win being over a bad Northern Colorado, who MSU beat in-conference. Their one loss came from a 19pt home loss to playoff-bound Weber and they beat 2 playoff bound teams in UM, as well as the head to head victory against MSU, which is likely why they got the #4. MSU went 2-2 against playoff teams (H2H loss vs Sac, beat SEMO and UM, and the other reason Sac got the #4... a 4 point loss @UND).

If those two closely seeded teams are flipped, APSU goes home in Round 2, Sac State probably beats Albany (but who knows) and a rematch of MSU and Sac State would have occurred in the quarterfinals. So just a slight flip flop of seeding, and we aren't even talking about it right now.

[Reign of Terrier]

@Kalm I think you're using the availiability heuristic when there's ample evidence that even those "power conferences" don't schedule as hard as we think they do OOC. Yes, we read about the EWU vs Jacksonville State games, but not when they play Central Washington, or what have you.

What's more, the playoffs are pretty broken. It used to be a pretty simple heuristic: unless you're in a conference that doesn't fully scholarship the team, win 8 games or so (including 7 D1 wins) and have no bad losses, and you'll 95% chance get in the playoffs (with some exception). Because there were only 16 slots, the internal logic of the committee was pretty easy.

Now, there's no guarantee of that. Because there's 8 more slots, there's far fewer teams getting that 8 win threshold, and the internal logic has shifted to "quality" wins which is much more subjective than people think in subdivision with 1-2 OOC games scheduled per year at FCS. And because people think zero sum (I saw bison fans yesterday call the CAA garbage, when logically that's not possible - if 1-2 of 10-12 conferences are elite, that doesn't mean the remaining 10 or so are garbage), there's no complexity here and it's blatant homerism.

Take ETSU for example. They beat a freaking FBS team and are undefeated right now. Not a great FBS team, mind you, but they won it (and that team would be .500 had it not been for that loss right now). But because the Socon is supposedly seen as "so weak" ETSU is in many polls not even in the top 10. Think about that for a second. They are won of the two teams in FCS to win 6 games with no defeats. They've not lost any games and they've done something only a handful of teams will do in any given season. And they're not top 10.

Now, I'm not saying they're a perfect team or even a top 4 team. But it goes to show how absurd, circular, inconsistent, and constantly changing the goal posts are for many teams in many conferences. You can say "well, I have ETSU in at the top 8 or top 5." That's fine. But the fact that the aggregate perception is measured in the polls as they are demonstrates my point.

ETSU being a good team and having a good resume right now not being valued as well as other teams in other conferences demonstrates the point because they are so relatively good, but for bubble teams, it's the same principle. Whatever positive, hard-to-match accomplishments they have are minimailzed and what minimal negative accomplishments (losing to playoff teams and FBS, etc) are maximized relative to Big Sky, MVFC, and CAA teams.

At some point, people need to realize that strength of schedule and strength of conference are only one component of many when evaluating how good a team is, but for most voters in AGS and otherwise, as well as playoff bids, it's quite literally 90% and we have so many data points to support that.

[Reign of Terrier]

Let me know when a Big South or SoCon makes it out of the quarters.

Let me know when a Southern conference team doesn't get shafted by the committee and has to play back to back away games or doesn't get NDSU to get out of the quarters.

[Reign of Terrier]

Not only is it too small of a sample size but giving Sac State the #4 and MSU the #5 seeds was probably a fairly narrow difference. MSU went 9-2 against FCS competition with OOC wins over playoff SEMO, a bad WIU and a meh Norfolk State, while Sac went 8-1 vs FCS with the only FCS OOC win being over a bad Northern Colorado, who MSU beat in-conference. Their one loss came from a 19pt home loss to playoff-bound Weber and they beat 2 playoff bound teams in UM, as well as the head to head victory against MSU, which is likely why they got the #4. MSU went 2-2 against playoff teams (H2H loss vs Sac, beat SEMO and UM, and the other reason Sac got the #4... a 4 point loss @UND).

If those two closely seeded teams are flipped, APSU goes home in Round 2, Sac State probably beats Albany (but who knows) and a rematch of MSU and Sac State would have occurred in the quarterfinals. So just a slight flip flop of seeding, and we aren't even talking about it right now.

Remember when the mighty Big Sky lost to a pioneer league team in the playoffs? Twice.

Don't be so sure of these things.

[MSUBobcat]

Historically? so the last decade. I was wondering when someone would bring up Montana vs Dixie State. Wasn't the score like 3-0 at half? Tisk Tisk...

Montana also had a redshirt freshman making his first start at QB. Heaven forbid it takes him a half of football to settle in xrolleyesx. They looked much better after halftime and rattled off 21 points in basically the 3rd quarter (started the 4th at the DSU 1 yard line). Brown did have a fumble that was returned for a TD, so he's obviously got some kinks to work out. But for a first start, it was a serviceable performance, particularly in the 2nd half.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get this taste from defending the Griz out of my mouth. :pumpuke:

[MSUBobcat]

Let me know when a Southern conference team doesn't get shafted by the committee and has to play back to back away games or doesn't get NDSU to get out of the quarters.

Back to back away games means... you were outbid, not shafted. If you aren't looking at a seed, bid higher or STFU. We all know the rules for selecting the host school. Do better.

[kalm]

@Kalm I think you're using the availiability heuristic when there's ample evidence that even those "power conferences" don't schedule as hard as we think they do OOC. Yes, we read about the EWU vs Jacksonville State games, but not when they play Central Washington, or what have you.

What's more, the playoffs are pretty broken. It used to be a pretty simple heuristic: unless you're in a conference that doesn't fully scholarship the team, win 8 games or so (including 7 D1 wins) and have no bad losses, and you'll 95% chance get in the playoffs (with some exception). Because there were only 16 slots, the internal logic of the committee was pretty easy.

Now, there's no guarantee of that. Because there's 8 more slots, there's far fewer teams getting that 8 win threshold, and the internal logic has shifted to "quality" wins which is much more subjective than people think in subdivision with 1-2 OOC games scheduled per year at FCS. And because people think zero sum (I saw bison fans yesterday call the CAA garbage, when logically that's not possible - if 1-2 of 10-12 conferences are elite, that doesn't mean the remaining 10 or so are garbage), there's no complexity here and it's blatant homerism.

Take ETSU for example. They beat a freaking FBS team and are undefeated right now. Not a great FBS team, mind you, but they won it (and that team would be .500 had it not been for that loss right now). But because the Socon is supposedly seen as "so weak" ETSU is in many polls not even in the top 10. Think about that for a second. They are won of the two teams in FCS to win 6 games with no defeats. They've not lost any games and they've done something only a handful of teams will do in any given season. And they're not top 10.

Now, I'm not saying they're a perfect team or even a top 4 team. But it goes to show how absurd, circular, inconsistent, and constantly changing the goal posts are for many teams in many conferences. You can say "well, I have ETSU in at the top 8 or top 5." That's fine. But the fact that the aggregate perception is measured in the polls as they are demonstrates my point.

ETSU being a good team and having a good resume right now not being valued as well as other teams in other conferences demonstrates the point because they are so relatively good, but for bubble teams, it's the same principle. Whatever positive, hard-to-match accomplishments they have are minimailzed and what minimal negative accomplishments (losing to playoff teams and FBS, etc) are maximized relative to Big Sky, MVFC, and CAA teams.

At some point, people need to realize that strength of schedule and strength of conference are only one component of many when evaluating how good a team is, but for most voters in AGS and otherwise, as well as playoff bids, it's quite literally 90% and we have so many data points to support that.

Yes. And then, like most BSC and Valley schedules the other two OOC games are against each other, or an SLC and an FBS. ( BTW, CWU would finish middle of the pack if not better in several FCS conferences. ) Or, like PSU and ISUo they’re frequently playing two FCS.

What then happens is the SOS of the better FCSP3 teams is further buoyed up because the bottom dwellers in the BSC and Valley play similar schedules. That 4 win Idaho’s games against Indiana and Oregon State raise the profile of Davis…etc.

The CAA and SoCon consistently trail in SoS because of available DI opponents. I don’t blame them for this scheduling just like I don’t blame the Montana’s and NDSU for 6-7 home games and weaker OOC opponents (I’d want EWU to do the same if we could). The difference being the conference schedule makes up for it compared to the SLC, OVC, SoCon, and CAA to a lesser extent.

Playoff performance matters because at some point (at least by the quarters) everyone is going to play quality opponents. Rubber meet road.

The best argument you have is playoff hosting. I agree with you here in that the most equitable format is seeding all 24. A few more upsets might occur but you still have to earn those home games via win-loss AND SoS.

SoS matters and if anything is under-rated by voters and the committee.

[Preferred Walk-On]

@Kalm I think you're using the availiability heuristic when there's ample evidence that even those "power conferences" don't schedule as hard as we think they do OOC. Yes, we read about the EWU vs Jacksonville State games, but not when they play Central Washington, or what have you.

What's more, the playoffs are pretty broken. It used to be a pretty simple heuristic: unless you're in a conference that doesn't fully scholarship the team, win 8 games or so (including 7 D1 wins) and have no bad losses, and you'll 95% chance get in the playoffs (with some exception). Because there were only 16 slots, the internal logic of the committee was pretty easy.

Now, there's no guarantee of that. Because there's 8 more slots, there's far fewer teams getting that 8 win threshold, and the internal logic has shifted to "quality" wins which is much more subjective than people think in subdivision with 1-2 OOC games scheduled per year at FCS. And because people think zero sum (I saw bison fans yesterday call the CAA garbage, when logically that's not possible - if 1-2 of 10-12 conferences are elite, that doesn't mean the remaining 10 or so are garbage), there's no complexity here and it's blatant homerism.

Take ETSU for example. They beat a freaking FBS team and are undefeated right now. Not a great FBS team, mind you, but they won it (and that team would be .500 had it not been for that loss right now). But because the Socon is supposedly seen as "so weak" ETSU is in many polls not even in the top 10. Think about that for a second. They are won of the two teams in FCS to win 6 games with no defeats. They've not lost any games and they've done something only a handful of teams will do in any given season. And they're not top 10.

Now, I'm not saying they're a perfect team or even a top 4 team. But it goes to show how absurd, circular, inconsistent, and constantly changing the goal posts are for many teams in many conferences. You can say "well, I have ETSU in at the top 8 or top 5." That's fine. But the fact that the aggregate perception is measured in the polls as they are demonstrates my point.

ETSU being a good team and having a good resume right now not being valued as well as other teams in other conferences demonstrates the point because they are so relatively good, but for bubble teams, it's the same principle. Whatever positive, hard-to-match accomplishments they have are minimailzed and what minimal negative accomplishments (losing to playoff teams and FBS, etc) are maximized relative to Big Sky, MVFC, and CAA teams.

At some point, people need to realize that strength of schedule and strength of conference are only one component of many when evaluating how good a team is, but for most voters in AGS and otherwise, as well as playoff bids, it's quite literally 90% and we have so many data points to support that.

I think your discussion will be best supported at the end of the season when the committee releases their bracket and you release the "bracket that should be". I will be curious where the differences lie and why you believe that. Looking forward to seeing your predicted bracket posted.

[MSUBobcat]

I think your discussion will be best supported at the end of the season when the committee releases their bracket and you release the "bracket that should be". I will be curious where the differences lie and why you believe that. Looking forward to seeing your predicted bracket posted.

Well.... that makes one of us. xcoffeexxlolx

[Reign of Terrier]

Back to back away games means... you were outbid, not shafted. If you aren't looking at a seed, bid higher or STFU. We all know the rules for selecting the host school. Do better.

If a Socon school wins a first round game at home, goes on the road and beats another socon school who is seeded, and then goes on the road and loses in double OT to an MVFC team who ends up being runner up, it's not because we got outbid.

My point is that homefield advantage is pretty important, especially when it involves multiple flights (look at how good Maine looked in 2018 vs Weber vs EWU, or heck, even Austin Peay vs Montana State vs Sac State). Because of the current perceptions and seeding, it's a bigger ask for these non "power" teams to progress farther than the quarters because of these extra variables which obviously don't determine the outcome, but they can't help either.


The difference being the conference schedule makes up for it compared to the SLC, OVC, SoCon, and CAA to a lesser extent.

Playoff performance matters because at some point (at least by the quarters) everyone is going to play quality opponents. Rubber meet road.

The best argument you have is playoff hosting. I agree with you here in that the most equitable format is seeding all 24. A few more upsets might occur but you still have to earn those home games via win-loss AND SoS.

SoS matters and if anything is under-rated by voters and the committee.

(I cut the first part of your post because I don't disagree with any of it)

The problem I have with the rest of this is that "we" (non-power conferences) are told to schedule harder, go out west, etc, but as you already alluded to in your post, there is incentive by those western programs to not do that (given how strong their conference slate is). A briefer way of putting my criticism is that we're punishing and rewarding players and coaches for institutional decisions that make sense, given the roll and purpose of football on these campuses, but they have no control over. I guess you could say my argument against letting the MVFC or Big Sky populate most of the at-large field (at least when there's a good controversy with another team) is the same reason why we give the pioneer and patriot leagues a bid: we think the principle of inclusion for team/conferences given institutional constraints is valuable part of the game.

This is why I support seeding the whole field, saying "**** it" to the financial costs concurred on the NCAA and either playing regional locations or having top seeded teams (relative to other team) hosting. I think regionalization hurts some programs more than others just because of the geographic structure of the FCS and it skews perception. And individual teams year-to-year can't change these deep institutional commitments (i.e "why doesn't wofford fly out to Montana" etc) and I just don't think it's fair to them. Because we could actually have a more accurate perception of how good these teams are when we're not looking at playoff bracket outcomes.

As for the "rubber meets road" argument: I think it's understandable but easily falsified. I can think of two examples. Single-elimination tournaments are great at determining the best teams, but they're awful at determining rank order. Rank order is what ultimately shapes our perception of these conferences.

For the first example, let's go back to 2018 and the Maine team I always either dunk on or use for this example. Eastern Washington had to come back and played an awesome one against UC-Davis. The next week they curb stomped Maine. By the standard of "rubber meets the road with playoff progression" we would think that Maine was a better team than Davis, but that was clearly not the case (unless you buy that air travel may have hurt Maine a bit, which I kind of believe but also it was like 30 points so I don't know about that...)

Because some FCS viewers fallaciously believe (a commonly held perception!) that advancing to a certain round makes you better than everyone else who didn't, they would believe that a team that came this close to beating Eastern was worse than a team that blew them out. That's either obviously not true or at least more complicated.

The second example is the Kennesaw state-Montana-Weber triangle in 2019. That year, Weber beat both of those teams in the playoffs in competitive games. But they also got curb stomped by Montana in the regular season. In short, game outcomes have a bigger range than people think they do, but because Kennesaw State or Wofford doesn't play a team like Weber in the regular season, the possibility of us blowing out weber in the regular season is treated like an impossibility simply because we lose to them in the playoffs competitively. If that standard applied to Montana, Montana would similarly be left out. In short: we forget how close some of these non-power games are because of the survivor-ship of those "power teams." Like, yeah, I wouldn't bet against certain Big Sky and MVFC teams at certain points in the playoffs, but I would bet against the gambling line many produce because these games are a lot closer than public perception implies.

And again, I want to reiterate that I don't think Wofford or KSU are top 5 programs (and Wofford isn't top 70 this year!). But the issue is that the absence of proper seeding, home field not helping these eastern teams, and the inherent flaws of single elimination brackets basically make it to where we can't draw accurate inferences about non-power teams and I think it makes for less fun playoffs and a more broken conversation during the year.

The solution is simple for some: play tougher OOC. But as we've discussed, that's a pretty big barrier to a lot of teams. So I think the best solution is to seed all of them in the playoffs and or play a regionalized neutral field outside of the first round. The former is probably more important than the latter. Once we get a better sample/bracket, I think you can keep the current scheduling regime, create an accurate perspective of the bubble teams/conference parity (or lack there of), and have a more fun experience.

[MSUBobcat]

If a Socon school wins a first round game at home, goes on the road and beats another socon school who is seeded, and then goes on the road and loses in double OT to an MVFC team who ends up being runner up, it's not because we got outbid.

My point is that homefield advantage is pretty important, especially when it involves multiple flights (look at how good Maine looked in 2018 vs Weber vs EWU, or heck, even Austin Peay vs Montana State vs Sac State). Because of the current perceptions and seeding, it's a bigger ask for these non "power" teams to progress farther than the quarters because of these extra variables which obviously don't determine the outcome, but they can't help either.

Now you're crying about having to go on the road against higher seeds?!? Someday I hope you get the sand surgically removed from your vagina. xpeacex

[Reign of Terrier]

I think your discussion will be best supported at the end of the season when the committee releases their bracket and you release the "bracket that should be". I will be curious where the differences lie and why you believe that. Looking forward to seeing your predicted bracket posted.

Tbh I don't like making predictionsxlolx

Funny enough, I don't have as strong opinions about seeding and other things that others on here have strong opinions about. I just have strong objections to 6-5 teams getting in over 7-4 or 8-3 teams, regardless of their conference affiliation.

The problem I have with the FCS system right now isn't that it doesn't produce the correct champion or that teams that shouldn't be seeded are seeded or vice versa (it does!), it's that the rules and parameters of the current system (regionalization, only 8 seeds, etc) combined with cognitive bias (availability heuristic, zero-sum thinking, etc) make for a broken FCS discussion and less fun game.

I don't really expect my team to win national titles at this point time, and I only thought we could be good enough for a brief moment in 2016. But it was a lot more fun as a team without that expectation in 2008-2016 or so when these factors and dynamics weren't really apparent.

That's what I care about more at this point. Because Wofford being out of the playoffs doesn't eliminate these dynamics, they just sustain themselves in teams like KSU or ETSU (who, again, I don't think are national title worthy, but we really deny ourselves some interesting storylines and narratives by stacking things against them in the ways we do)

[Reign of Terrier]

Now you're crying about having to go on the road against higher seeds?!? Someday I hope you get the sand surgically removed from your vagina. xpeacex

And yet for all your advantages, your team still has a worse win percentage than mine. Imagine being a competitor in the FCS since the 80s and not even breaking 10 wins yet

32185

[Bisonoline]

And yet for all your advantages, your team still has a worse win percentage than mine. Imagine being a competitor in the FCS since the 80s and not even breaking 10 wins yet

32185

What does your post have to do with his? As you notice hes not whining. But nice try. xrolleyesx

[Reign of Terrier]

What does your post have to do with his? As you notice hes not whining. But nice try. xrolleyesx

sure thing opie

[MSUBobcat]

And yet for all your advantages, your team still has a worse win percentage than mine. Imagine being a competitor in the FCS since the 80s and not even breaking 10 wins yet

32185

xlolx Imagine being a supposed college grad and not knowing that .500 is greater than .474.

And you NEG REPPED me?!?! xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx Dude, you are so 10-ply you aren't even worth my time. You play the victim more than the entire #MeToo movement. Go whine like a lil bitch to someone who gives a single ****.

[Reign of Terrier]

xlolx Imagine being a supposed college grad and not knowing that .500 is greater than .474.

And you NEG REPPED me?!?! xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx Dude, you are so 10-ply you aren't even worth my time. You play the victim more than the entire #MeToo movement. Go whine like a lil bitch to someone who gives a single ****.

We're having a great conversation on here about FCS football. If you wanna degrade the conversation with random name calling, fine, but you're not worth my time. Savor your 6 playoff wins in 30 years.

Either you don't give a **** or you care that I neg repped you. Pick one, bitch.

[MSUBobcat]

We're having a great conversation on here about FCS football. If you wanna degrade the conversation with random name calling, fine, but you're not worth my time. Savor your 6 playoff wins in 30 years.

Either you don't give a **** or you care that I neg repped you. Pick one, bitch.

Act like a bitch... get called a bitch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't YOU start the random name calling with Bisonoline "Opie"? Savor your 9 whole playoff wins in 26 years and that one time you actually made a semifinal 18 years ago. From the looks of your program, it's gonna be a minute til you see the playoffs again..... bitch. xlolx

[Reign of Terrier]

Act like a bitch... get called a bitch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't YOU start the random name calling with Bisonoline "Opie"? Savor your 9 whole playoff wins in 26 years and that one time you actually made a semifinal 18 years ago. From the looks of your program, it's gonna be a minute til you see the playoffs again..... bitch. xlolx

no no that's his actual name, didn't you know that?

You're the one complaining about what strangers think about you on the internet, I think that is sufficiently bitchy.

That's almost as bitchy as not knowing 2021-2003 is 18 and not 26 or rooting for a team that has quite literally never won an away playoff game. Can you imagine being gifted with such preference by the playoff committee and squandering year-in-and-year-out? Couldn't be me.

[MSUBobcat]

no no that's his actual name, didn't you know that?

You're the one complaining about what strangers think about you on the internet, I think that is sufficiently bitchy.

That's almost as bitchy as not knowing 2021-2003 is 18 and not 26 or rooting for a team that has quite literally never won an away playoff game. Can you imagine being gifted with such preference by the playoff committee and squandering year-in-and-year-out? Couldn't be me.

I don't even care what people who know me think about me xlolx If I did, I wouldn't act like such an asshole. I don't have a problem telling people what I think of them, on the interwebz or in person. And you're a whiny bitch. I'm sure I'm far from the only one who thinks that here. You're even worse than Hooty. At least he's just a homer.

What is truly stupid is not knowing that your team moved up to D-I in 1995, not 2003, which is... 26 not 18. At least according to the Wofford Records of the Athletics Office website, which is... broken. Or that we won the national championship in 1984 in..... Charleson, SC. Well, hell.... that's just right down the road from y'all, isn't it?

[HootyHoo]

lol this is great. That explains why bobcat jumped all over me when I suggested his team was not worthy of a seed. He's got a massive inferiority complex. And who can blame him? Is it true the Bobcats have never won a road playoff game? Ever?! That's embarrassing. KSU did it on our first try, against a 3 seed no less.

[Reign of Terrier]

I don't even care what people who know me think about me xlolx If I did, I wouldn't act like such an asshole. I don't have a problem telling people what I think of them, on the interwebz or in person. And you're a whiny bitch. I'm sure I'm far from the only one who thinks that here. You're even worse than Hooty. At least he's just a homer.

What is truly stupid is not knowing that your team moved up to D-I in 1995, not 2003, which is... 26 not 18. At least according to the Wofford Records of the Athletics Office website, which is... broken. Or that we won the national championship in 1984 in..... Charleson, SC. Well, hell.... that's just right down the road from y'all, isn't it?

A neutral site game isn't an away game lol

Logically speaking, Wofford has 9 playoff wins since 2003. Montana State has 6. If we extend it back to when the teams entered FCS, sure that's a good frame, but it doesn't capture how ****ing incompetent Montana State has been. Because you've been at this level for almost 40 years and you haven't won 10 playoff games yet lol Montana State hasn't won an away playoff game ever.

Meanwhile, Wofford elevated itself after a few years of transitioning to 1-AA/FCS (I don't think we were eligible for the playoffs until 1997 or 1998), and we were the fourth team in a strong 3 bid league. We would have easily made the playoffs and won a few more games if the field was 24 and not 16. We impressed the committee for the first time and we're a known commodity for what we do, not because of the conference we play in. We won our second road playoff game, in Montana no less.

And I'm sorry you interpret conversations that involve a lot of words you don't like as whining. It must be hard being you.

[MSUBobcat]

lol this is great. That explains why bobcat jumped all over me when I suggested his team was not worthy of a seed. He's got a massive inferiority complex. And who can blame him? Is it true the Bobcats have never won a road playoff game? Ever?! That's embarrassing. KSU did it on our first try, against a 3 seed no less.

An inferiority complex... over college athletics?!? xlolx Y'all take your sports too seriously. I don't live vicariously thru my team. Which is probably why I don't cry like Rain over every perceived slight by the selection committee. You guys are too funny. If the success of MSU's football team, which I knew nothing about having just moved to Montana as a junior in HS, was at all relevant to deciding which school to attend... would I have chosen MSU? They were fully immersed in The Streak against the Griz and they didn't win a game my freshman year. We had more people tailgating than we did actually go in to watch them. I'll freely admit that the late 80's and 90's were trash. Who cares? How does their performance 35 years ago affect me? I support them during the season, and when they make their exit from the playoffs, I move on to the hockey season. But if Lil Pup wants to beat his chest over having 3 more playoff wins in the last 20+ years... have at it. I have a much shorter memory, apparently.

[Reign of Terrier]

I'm sorry but no one gets to talk about *other people* caring too much about FCS football while posting on this forum :)

You're here, you're a 1%er. Own it!

My manic posting style is because I think in paragraphs. It's definitely a flaw, but some people enjoy it. Watching Wofford is my hobby because I did it as a kid. When it comes to selection committee stuff, I'm not really whining so much as I think it's almost funny at this point? There are worst injustices in the world.

Look bud, we got on the wrong foot on this thread and I'll try to find an excuse to give some positive rep to you sometime soon. We all like our teams, and express it in different ways, and this is all in good fun.

[kalm]

A neutral site game isn't an away game lol

Logically speaking, Wofford has 9 playoff wins since 2003. Montana State has 6. If we extend it back to when the teams entered FCS, sure that's a good frame, but it doesn't capture how ****ing incompetent Montana State has been. Because you've been at this level for almost 40 years and you haven't won 10 playoff games yet lol Montana State hasn't won an away playoff game ever.

Meanwhile, Wofford elevated itself after a few years of transitioning to 1-AA/FCS (I don't think we were eligible for the playoffs until 1997 or 1998), and we were the fourth team in a strong 3 bid league. We would have easily made the playoffs and won a few more games if the field was 24 and not 16. We impressed the committee for the first time and we're a known commodity for what we do, not because of the conference we play in. We won our second road playoff game, in Montana no less.

And I'm sorry you interpret conversations that involve a lot of words you don't like as whining. It must be hard being you.

Who are the playoff wins against and where were they played,

[Houndawg]

Sac state’s early exit is too small of a sample size.

Playoff selections are resume driven as they should be.

Some conferences produce better resumes than others.

Some East Coast resumes are buoyed by D1 counter games against teams that are no better than elite DII’s.

trut so pure

[MSUBobcat]

I'm sorry but no one gets to talk about caring too much about FCS football while posting on this forum lmao

Nah. I think there's a lot of space between enjoying discussing FCS football and having your life revolve around your team's success, particularly when you're bringing up records from decades ago. I feel sorry if you can't distinguish between the 2.

[Reign of Terrier]

Who are the playoff wins against and where were they played,

Here's wiki for both (you can scroll for playoff success):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wofford_Terriers_football
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_State_Bobcats_football

If you want me to go into more detail I can, but I'd say Wofford's had a solid performance in most of the games we played. The only bad game was NDSU in 2017 (that Wofford team was not our best). How we are lately depends greatly on your perception of KSU, unfortunately.

Edit: I just noticed Wofford's home/away isn't on there so I'll do that briefly:
2003: two home (one against defending national champ WKU), lost to national champ delaware away
2007: beat Montana (#1 seed?) away, lost to Richmond at home (who won the national title the next year; final score was 21-10, but a snap over the punters head by Wofford allowed richmond to put it at two scores in the fourth)
2008: @ JMU (lost by 3) they were the number one seed
2010: @ Jacksonville State W, L at home to georgia southern
2011: @UNI L (the infamous "no kneel game") lost by 7
2012: beat UNH (#1 offense in the country, held them to 7) at home, lost to NDSU by 7 on the road (national champs)
2016: beat CSU (defending quarterfinalist and OT losers to NDSU) at home, beat seeded Citadel on the road, lost to national runner up YSU in double OT on the road
2017, beat Furman at home, aforementioned NDSU game on the road
2018/2019: Kennesaw away and at home respectively lost; beat Elon at home in 2018

[Reign of Terrier]

Nah. I think there's a lot of space between enjoying discussing FCS football and having your life revolve around your team's success, particularly when you're bringing up records from decades ago. I feel sorry if you can't distinguish between the 2.

I'll just repost what I added after I edited:

You're here, you're a 1%er FCS Fan. There's no shame in it: own it!

My manic posting style is because I think in paragraphs. It's definitely a flaw, but some people enjoy it (and it's not limited to FCS football). Watching Wofford is my hobby because I did it as a kid and part of the reason I can spout out the statistics is because I saw them in real time. When it comes to selection committee stuff, I'm not really whining so much as I think it's almost funny at this point because it's so blatant. It's so low stakes. But I like to talk it out on forums like this, because if it does some persuading and change are made, that's good. But if not, there are worst injustices in the world.

Look bud, we got on the wrong foot on this thread and I'll try to find an excuse to give some positive rep to you sometime soon. We all like our teams, and express it in different ways, and this is all in good fun.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Tbh I don't like making predictionsxlolx


No predictions then...you can post your "ideal" (for lack of a better term) bracket after the selection show. Same idea though, playoff system is not right, so what selections (in your mind) would make it right? If nothing else, it should make for a pretty good thread.


Funny enough, I don't have as strong opinions about seeding and other things that others on here have strong opinions about. I just have strong objections to 6-5 teams getting in over 7-4 or 8-3 teams, regardless of their conference affiliation.


Why? If a 6-5 team played some 7-4 or 8-3 team's schedules, you don't think they could produce the same result?

The problem I have with the FCS system right now isn't that it doesn't produce the correct champion or that teams that shouldn't be seeded are seeded or vice versa (it does!), it's that the rules and parameters of the current system (regionalization, only 8 seeds, etc) combined with cognitive bias (availability heuristic, zero-sum thinking, etc) make for a broken FCS discussion and less fun game.


I'm sorry, but who would have been the "correct champion" each year during the past decade? There have been some pretty effing good teams winning the championship (and beating some pretty effing good teams to do so). Also, selection is subjective, and if I am reading your posts correctly, their current way is the incorrect way (and I am probably putting words in your mouth here, but your way is the correct way?).

I don't really expect my team to win national titles at this point time, and I only thought we could be good enough for a brief moment in 2016. But it was a lot more fun as a team without that expectation in 2008-2016 or so when these factors and dynamics weren't really apparent.

I'm still a bit confused about the "factors and dynamics" and what the priority list should be for playoff consideration.

That's what I care about more at this point. Because Wofford being out of the playoffs doesn't eliminate these dynamics, they just sustain themselves in teams like KSU or ETSU (who, again, I don't think are national title worthy, but we really deny ourselves some interesting storylines and narratives by stacking things against them in the ways we do)

There will never be a playoff bracket that appeases everyone. Heck, I am an NDSU fan that has cried afoul a few times (see ISUr as #2 seed or 4 MVFC teams all on the same side of the bracket). I guess the solution (much like the two instances I mentioned for NDSU) is for those that get in and represent their conferences as 1- or 2-bid leagues is to win, win, then win again, and then when they are done winning, go out and win some more. In other words, beat the 3+-bid leagues...and I mean regularly, not one-offs. You are correct, the past is not always a good indicator of future playoff success, but it isn't a bad indicator either. My take from your posts is that "eliminating these dynamics" really means capping bids from all conferences and letting in more teams that might appear inferior due to SOS or the conference they play in, simply because they have a slightly better record. Am I interpreting your solution to the "dynamics dysfunction" correctly?

[Reign of Terrier]

Tbh I don't like making predictionsxlolx

No predictions then...you can post your "ideal" (for lack of a better term) bracket after the selection show. Same idea though, playoff system is not right, so what selections (in your mind) would make it right? If nothing else, it should make for a pretty good thread.


Funny enough, I don't have as strong opinions about seeding and other things that others on here have strong opinions about. I just have strong objections to 6-5 teams getting in over 7-4 or 8-3 teams, regardless of their conference affiliation.

Why? If a 6-5 team played some 7-4 or 8-3 team's schedules, you don't think they could produce the same result?

The problem I have with the FCS system right now isn't that it doesn't produce the correct champion or that teams that shouldn't be seeded are seeded or vice versa (it does!), it's that the rules and parameters of the current system (regionalization, only 8 seeds, etc) combined with cognitive bias (availability heuristic, zero-sum thinking, etc) make for a broken FCS discussion and less fun game.
I'm sorry, but who would have been the "correct champion" each year during the past decade? There have been some pretty effing good teams winning the championship (and beating some pretty effing good teams to do so). Also, selection is subjective, and if I am reading your posts correctly, their current way is the incorrect way (and I am probably putting words in your mouth here, but your way is the correct way?).

I don't really expect my team to win national titles at this point time, and I only thought we could be good enough for a brief moment in 2016. But it was a lot more fun as a team without that expectation in 2008-2016 or so when these factors and dynamics weren't really apparent.

I'm still a bit confused about the "factors and dynamics" and what the priority list should be for playoff consideration.

That's what I care about more at this point. Because Wofford being out of the playoffs doesn't eliminate these dynamics, they just sustain themselves in teams like KSU or ETSU (who, again, I don't think are national title worthy, but we really deny ourselves some interesting storylines and narratives by stacking things against them in the ways we do)

There will never be a playoff bracket that appeases everyone. Heck, I am an NDSU fan that has cried afoul a few times (see ISUr as #2 seed or 4 MVFC teams all on the same side of the bracket). I guess the solution (much like the two instances I mentioned for NDSU) is for those that get in and represent their conferences as 1- or 2-bid leagues is to win, win, then win again, and then when they are done winning, go out and win some more. In other words, beat the 3+-bid leagues...and I mean regularly, not one-offs. You are correct, the past is not always a good indicator of future playoff success, but it isn't a bad indicator either. My take from your posts is that "eliminating these dynamics" really means capping bids from all conferences and letting in more teams that might appear inferior due to SOS or the conference they play in, simply because they have a slightly better record. Am I interpreting your solution to the "dynamics dysfunction" correctly?


1) If you DM me and AGS's final poll comes out, I'll use that + my intuitions on that. I may forget because it's the week before thankgiving but a DM will come into my inbox and I'll do it
2) This is a big conversation about playoffs, but for me most people are asking the wrong question: "are these teams good" (yes they are) vs "is this team so much clearly better than the other ones given their resume that they warrant a position in the playoffs over them" for me the answer to question #2 is usually no because I think teams should not be given "participation trophies" for only winning half their games. To be a playoff team IMO you have to be consistent and cut down on mistakes (i.e not lose games) just as much as you show flashes of brilliance (quality wins)
3) No no, I believe we have had the correct champion! The problem is that we're not getting a good read of, say 2-8 because sometimes #3 will play #2 in the quarterfinals as opposed to the semifinals (because of regionalization or other factors).
4) the dynamics are the intersection of geography, seeding (or lack there of), a limited sample of of OOC games, and there being 24 teams, which is an awkward number, which given the OOC sample, hurts the inclusivity of the field, among other things.
5) uhhhh I honestly don't know (I think my long-form posting habits have backfired). Basically: having geography, only seeding 8, having byes, etc are choices that are only there to eliminate funding problems. Every bracket will have winners and losers in terms of selection. I think the ideal bracket for FCS is one that allows any team from any conference (with the exception of the ones who don't fully support scholarship football) to have roughly equal chance at making the playoffs to others. This means, we don't demand perfection out of some conferences and allow 4-4 mediocrity in others.

To me, the solution is either to
1) reduce the size of the field (and make the playoffs a higher standard like the FBS playoff is turning out to be)
2) to rank-order the field (so we have a better inference of cross conference competition) or
3) expand the field to lower the standards a little bit more.

I think if you do any one of those three, the dynamics of unfairness sort of disappear. I hope that helps and thanks for tolerating my long posts!

[MSUBobcat]

I'll just repost what I added after I edited:

You're here, you're a 1%er FCS Fan. There's no shame in it: own it!

My manic posting style is because I think in paragraphs. It's definitely a flaw, but some people enjoy it (and it's not limited to FCS football). Watching Wofford is my hobby because I did it as a kid and part of the reason I can spout out the statistics is because I saw them in real time. When it comes to selection committee stuff, I'm not really whining so much as I think it's almost funny at this point because it's so blatant. It's so low stakes. But I like to talk it out on forums like this, because if it does some persuading and change are made, that's good. But if not, there are worst injustices in the world.

Look bud, we got on the wrong foot on this thread and I'll try to find an excuse to give some positive rep to you sometime soon. We all like our teams, and express it in different ways, and this is all in good fun.

I disagree. Killing some time while learning about FCS doesn't mean this is even in the top 10 of things that matter in my life. If it did, I'd have taken more road trips to see my team play. I can easily afford it, but so far the only FCS stadiums I've been to are Bobcat Stadium and Wa-Griz. I half-heartedly looked into going to BBQ this Friday and even found they have 1st row seats ON THE FIFTY for only $20/each. Not only that, but it just so happens that we're buying a new transit van from SLC so the owner of the company was going to pay for our trip down to save the $600 delivery fee. But the prospect of a FREE trip and cheap as hell good seats lost to the prospect of us both having to drive a vehicle back from Ogden solo. Tell me that sounds like someone who takes their FCS extremely seriously. Honestly, I'd rather be taking the wire wheel on an angle grinder to my 1967 truck frame (which SUCKS) than posting here, but it's a bit difficult to do from my desk so... here I be.

[Reign of Terrier]

fair enough fair enough (I tried to positive rep you just now, but it wouldn't let me). I'll get around to it!

[MSUBobcat]

fair enough fair enough (I tried to rep you just now, but it wouldn't let me). I'll get around to it!

Please, don't worry about it. I honestly don't care about my rep points. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it's the ONLY time someone bothered to neg rep me, so.... 10-ply.

[HootyHoo]

I can't wait to use the "I don't live vicariously through my teams" and "don't take FCS too seriously" when Bobcat is whining that MSU didn't get a seed.

[caribbeanhen]

fair enough fair enough (I tried to rep you just now, but it wouldn't let me). I'll get around to it!

this is butt hurt on display

neg rep? JFC

[Reign of Terrier]

positive. I giveth and taketh away, or taketh away and giveth

[Catbooster]

3) No no, I believe we have had the correct champion! The problem is that we're not getting a good read of, say 2-8 because sometimes #3 will play #2 in the quarterfinals as opposed to the semifinals (because of regionalization or other factors).
This sounds like you want to know the proper final rankings. I'm not sure it does anything to help the problem I thought you were concerned about: 4th or 5th playoff participants in the playoffs from "big" conferences displacing 2nd or 3rd from "smaller" conferences.

Does anyone really care who would have been the third place team, or the 9th place team or whatever? Sam Houston still gets made fun of for making runner-up t-shirts years ago. And as I think you mentioned somewhere, to do this would require consolation rounds, etc. I'm not sure it's worth the added number of games, costs, wear and tear on the athletes etc.


4) the dynamics are the intersection of geography, seeding (or lack there of), a limited sample of of OOC games, and there being 24 teams, which is an awkward number, which given the OOC sample, hurts the inclusivity of the field, among other things.
5) uhhhh I honestly don't know (I think my long-form posting habits have backfired). Basically: having geography, only seeding 8, having byes, etc are choices that are only there to eliminate funding problems. Every bracket will have winners and losers in terms of selection. I think the ideal bracket for FCS is one that allows any team from any conference (with the exception of the ones who don't fully support scholarship football) to have roughly equal chance at making the playoffs to others. This means, we don't demand perfection out of some conferences and allow 4-4 mediocrity in others.

Those are issues that frequently come up on this site. But I don't see a very strong connection with the problem you are trying to solve (that of teams with better W/L records from perceived "weaker" conferences being displaced by 4th or 5th place teams from "stronger" conferences). If we eliminated the geographical element do you think suddenly the selection committee will choose more of these teams from the "weaker" conferences? If a different number of teams are seeded the selection committee will not take as many teams from the "stronger" conferences? To me, those seem to be unrelated.

Furthermore, why would you make an exception for schools that don't "fully" support scholarship football? It's ok if my Bobcats are 4th place in the Big Sky at 6-5 and take a playoff spot at the expense of a 9-2 Patriot team but not if it's at the expense of a 8-3 SoCon team? Seems hypocritical to me.


To me, the solution is either to
1) reduce the size of the field (and make the playoffs a higher standard like the FBS playoff is turning out to be)
2) to rank-order the field (so we have a better inference of cross conference competition) or
3) expand the field to lower the standards a little bit more.

I think if you do any one of those three, the dynamics of unfairness sort of disappear. I hope that helps and thanks for tolerating my long posts!
1) This would indirectly address the problem. Not because the selection committee would suddenly value the better W/L team from a "weaker" conference but because it would prevent the 4th place team from the "stronger" conference from being selected. In other words, it treats the symptom but doesn't fix the issue you are concerned about.
2)Most everyone would like to see this. But I don't see how it changes the issue of better W/L teams from conferences perceived to be weaker being displaced by teams in the conferences perceived to be stronger.
3) personally, I think the field is big enough. And I think this would just move the problem down a few rankings but the problem would still be the same.

[MSUBobcat]

I can't wait to use the "I don't live vicariously through my teams" and "don't take FCS too seriously" when Bobcat is whining that MSU didn't get a seed.

xlolx Gonna be a long wait, Hooty. First, I have an extremely short term memory when it comes to sports. They're great to occupy some time, but I follow football, hockey and baseball so at any given time of year, I've always got another team or 3 to move my attention to. I've also said just today on this week's poll that MSU is currently overrated AND that we have to win at least 1 of the @ Weber, @ EWU and @ UM games just to make the playoffs as well as taking care of the 2 remaining home games that we are expected to win. I don't believe a 7-4 MSU team with no quality wins deserves a playoff berth. I'm nervous about this Friday's game, and it is "easiest" of the 3. If we beat Weber and UM, but lose to an 11-0 EWU, then I'd probably say a 9-2, 2nd place MSU with an FBS loss and a loss to top 3 EWU would get a seed. Beat just Weber and lose the other 2, in the playoffs at 8-3, but no seed. Obviously, run the table and finish 10-1 with only a 3pt loss to Wyoming and a seed for sure. With so many cupcakes, our margin for error for a seed is very small, i.e we must win 2 of the Big 3 remaining. Anything less and there's no way I'd argue for a seed.

[The Yo Show]

I shall not be silenced. Kennesaw State University is what you all fear. 40K+ students in a major metropolitan area which is one of richest talent pools in the country. The Owls are not coming, they are here. KSU will be in the Quarterfinals again this season. I hope to see one of your schools there.

Chattown is that you?

[Bisonoline]

no no that's his actual name, didn't you know that?

You're the one complaining about what strangers think about you on the internet, I think that is sufficiently bitchy.

That's almost as bitchy as not knowing 2021-2003 is 18 and not 26 or rooting for a team that has quite literally never won an away playoff game. Can you imagine being gifted with such preference by the playoff committee and squandering year-in-and-year-out? Couldn't be me.

Now youre a liar. Where did that get you? xrolleyesx

[MSUBobcat]

Now youre a liar. Where did that get you? xrolleyesx

So you're not Opie? I actually felt bad that I thought he was calling you names when it was really your name.

[MSUBobcat]

Chattown is that you?

I, for one, really miss Chattown and his antics. Predicting a championship every year only to be out of contention by week 8 was awesome.