40 yard times

[terrierbob]

We have a freshman RB with a 4.48 40. How does this compare with other RBs in FCS?

[Ronbo]

That's pretty good for a running back. Most are 4.5's to 4.6.

We have a WR that did a 4.41 in spring camp. And we have some corners that are sub 4.5. We have a safety that ran a 4.38 in HS but he is 210 lbs now and probably isn't that fast any longer.

[asu3peat]

Not sure about the 40 time, but Dexter Jackson (WR) ran the 100 meters in 10.72 back in May at the Duke Asics Meet in Durham. Anything under 4.5 is flying!!!

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

Jayson Foster (QB/RB/WR) runs a 4.34.

Mike Hamilton (RB) runs a 4.41.

Lamar Lewis (RB) runs a 4.4.

Brett Layson (WR) runs 4.36.



I think we have a couple other guys on our team that run a 4.4 or sub 4.4 but can't of them off the top of my head.

[terrierbob]

I'm guessing no one will beat Foster's time.

[UncleSam]

In my opinion, forty times are way over-rated, there's speed and then there's football speed, which is totally different. Forty times don't account for reaction or five to ten yrd quickness, which is far more important.

[Ronbo]

Boy, that's the truth. We have a safety named Colt Anderson. He's under sized and probably runs mid 4.5's. But this kid is unbelieveable, he's all over the field and has a nose for the football. Hard hitter too. Usually the first guy to the ball carrier on punts. They can't keep this undersized, slow guy off the field, he's become too damn important. Oh,and he was a walkon, nobody wanted him. xlolx xlolx xlolx Don't ever think that speed is more important than heart! The safety that is 210 lbs and ran a 4.38 in HS is Colt's backup.

[Tribe4SF]

Forty times are mostly fiction. Unless they're electronically timed, they're totally unreliable, and can't be compared. When guys go to the NFL combine, they find out how fast they are. Not at all unusual to see a guy listed as a 4.4 get run down in a game by a guy listed as 4.6.

[bison137]

In my opinion, forty times are way over-rated, there's speed and then there's football speed, which is totally different. Forty times don't account for reaction or five to ten yrd quickness, which is far more important.


Agree. Also, many of the 40 times are not comparable. They can be hand-timed or electronic. They can be run on grass, on turf, or on a track. They can be wind-aided or not. ETC.

[Ronbo]

You can tell us that all you want but Tuff Harris was timed at 4.46 to 4.49 every year at Montana. He was timed at 4.49 in his NFL workout so I guess our coaches are pretty good 40 timers.

[youwouldno]

There's no question whatsoever that program-timed 40's are incomparable with one another. They are clocked under different conditions and only electronic times are legit anyway, considering the limits of human reflexes. A player can still go to the combine and run a great 40 time but the overwhelming majority run it 'slower.'

Regardless, the 40 is irrelevant anyhow. If someone is fast, they're fast, and you don't need a timer to tell you. Side note- electronically timed, I doubt Lamar Lewis would break 4.5, let alone run at 4.4.

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

Jayson Foster (QB/RB/WR) runs a 4.34.

Mike Hamilton (RB) runs a 4.41.

Lamar Lewis (RB) runs a 4.4.

Brett Layson (WR) runs 4.36.



I think we have a couple other guys on our team that run a 4.4 or sub 4.4 but can't of them off the top of my head.



I know that Foster's and Layson's were electronically timed at the Nike combines.


Layson also was the State Champion in 110- and 300-meter hurdles.

He was my roommate over the summer and showed me his highlight film. He will be the next Jayson Foster. Brett turned down a number of offers to play at IA schools to have a chance at playing QB at GSU. It probably won't happen now that we have some transfers there, but he will be a nasty WR at 6'2 215 and blazingly fast.

[blueballs]

40 times don't matter and never have. They only serve to hype players and for bragging purposes. They are useful tools for talent evaluators in comparing one player's speed vs. another, but that's about the extent of it.

Whoever posted about football speed had it right, all the speed a player needs is to be one step quicker than his opponent.

[seantaylor]

Lionel McGriff is in the 4.3's for GSU. Brandon Jackson is 4.41. Tons of team speed for the Eagles.

[AZGrizFan]

You can tell us that all you want but Tuff Harris was timed at 4.46 to 4.49 every year at Montana. He was timed at 4.49 in his NFL workout so I guess our coaches are pretty good 40 timers.

Tuff, there's another good example of "football" speed. What a stud. xeekx

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

Lionel McGriff is in the 4.3's for GSU. Brandon Jackson is 4.41. Tons of team speed for the Eagles.

I knew I was forgetting someone that was sub 4.4. You know, we could almost field a non-scholie track team just with our football players.

[McNeese75]

Several of the McNeese receivers and DB's did run in a couple track meets in the spring. xnodx

Irregardless of any claimed 40 times, the Cowboys have a lot of team speed this year.

[bobcatalum05]

Yeah, McNeese has a few in the sub 4.3 range and I know Texas State has one.

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

Yeah, McNeese has a few in the sub 4.3 range and I know Texas State has one.


Sub 4.3?? I haven't even heard of any I-A guys that do that...

[NYSigma]

True that 40 times are somewhat overated. I also liken it to a NFL back getting 1,000 yards, that means they only have to get like 62 yards a game which is really not a lot. Now back to 40 times. Back in college Jerome Mathis was a 200 meter national champion. I think he consistently ran 4.3's at school. For a Running Back 40 yard times are a good way of judging speed, for wide receivers the 100 yard dash would be better in my opinion. We have about five guys on our current team (Hampton) that run 4.4 or better. Speed kills gentlemen....

[AZGrizFan]

True that 40 times are somewhat overated. I also liken it to a NFL back getting 1,000 yards, that means they only have to get like 62 yards a game which is really not a lot. Now back to 40 times. Back in college Jerome Mathis was a 200 meter national champion. I think he consistently ran 4.3's at school. For a Running Back 40 yard times are a good way of judging speed, for wide receivers the 100 yard dash would be better in my opinion. We have about five guys on our current team (Hampton) that run 4.4 or better. Speed kills gentlemen....

at least IN conference....apparently not in the playoffs, huh? ;) ;) ;)

[fuEMO]

This will probably cause more debate than anything. But Furman let the guys run 40s on the track and they could choose to wear track shoes. So you can be the judge what difference it made. But despite the claim by some, Furman has increased its team speed quite a bit.

William Middleton CB ran a 4.28
Mike Brown RB ran a 4.30
Adam Mims the fastest player timed when he competed at Auburn and UAB camps did not participate but chances are he could have pulled a faster time he ran a Nike timed 4.41 in high school.

[BULLDOG8180]

This will probably cause more debate than anything. But Furman let the guys run 40s on the track and they could choose to wear track shoes. So you can be the judge what difference it made. But despite the claim by some, Furman has increased its team speed quite a bit.

William Middleton CB ran a 4.28
Mike Brown RB ran a 4.30
Adam Mims the fastest player timed when he competed at Auburn and UAB camps did not participate but chances are he could have pulled a faster time he ran a Nike timed 4.41 in high school.

I heard from a reliable source that Furman does not time their players in the forty.

[grayghost06]

Unless they are timing these guys with full football gear on, I think the 40 times are totally useless. Some guys can motor with the stuff on or off yet others can only do it w/o the gear.

[catdaddy2402]

Sub 4.3?? I haven't even heard of any I-A guys that do that...

Meet Jacoby Ford. WR and P/KR at Clemson
http://clemsontigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ford_jacoby01.html


#17 prep school player in the nation by Rivals.com..."fastest player on the East Coast" by Rivals.com...had the best 40-yard dash time at the Fork Union College Coaches Combine (4.126)...Head Coach John Schuman called Ford "the fastest player ever at Fork Union"; it has produced 87 NFL draft picks and two Heisman Trophy winners.

He's football fast too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXbc5-0u6A

That said, 40 times are the most overrated stat used in football, and usually the one that;s fudged the most. The greatest WR of all-time, Jerry Rice, didn't have an eye popping 40 time. He was fast, but it was body control, precise route running, a great set of hands, and an incredible work ethic is what made him great.
Emmitt Smith didn't have blazing speed either. He's the NFL's all-time leading rusher.

[Old Montana State Grad]

Excellent example; although the times can lead a coach to making poor decisions as to which player to actually put on the field and frequently see him spend valuable practice time on someone, the 40 is just one of many aspects; e.g., strength, stamina, vertical, hand size, digit length, and one we saw (and took a chance on at Montana State)--ability to recover from an injury.

Evin Groves was one of the most sought after high school athletes in southern California until he blew a knee; we were the only school to continue recruiting and willing to gamble on his ability to recover. We were blessed to see flashes of what could have been, but unfortunately, the injury was too severe to allow this young man to continue.

So the 40 is an aspect of the overall physical test, the other elements are all equally important. I'd hate to put a kid with 4.25 speed on the field with size 8 hands and expect him to become either a receiver or running back.

[Tribe4SF]

True that 40 times are somewhat overated. I also liken it to a NFL back getting 1,000 yards, that means they only have to get like 62 yards a game which is really not a lot. Now back to 40 times. Back in college Jerome Mathis was a 200 meter national champion. I think he consistently ran 4.3's at school. For a Running Back 40 yard times are a good way of judging speed, for wide receivers the 100 yard dash would be better in my opinion. We have about five guys on our current team (Hampton) that run 4.4 or better. Speed kills gentlemen....

Mathis' speed was undeniable. His performance at W&M in the playoffs was legendary stuff, and he ran the fastest set of 40s ever at the NFL combine, averaging 4.28 to edge out Deion Sanders.

[cockyterrierman]

terrierbob- my son is a freshman linebacker and playing for Wofford and ran a 4.30 at the SC State Strength Meet in April of this year.

I agree that 40 times are way overrated! Fortunately, the day my son ran 4.3- the weather was perfect and he had a great explosive start. He was given 3 x to run, 1st- 4.52, 2nd -4.40 and 3rd- 4.30. He has been timed so many times and it varies depending on the wind, field etc.
Speed and quickness is proven on the field.

[terrierbob]

terrierbob my son is a freshman linebacker and playing for Wofford and ran a 4.30 at the SC State Strength Meet in April of this year.

I agree that 40 times are way overrated! Fortunately, the day my son ran 4.3- the weather was perfect and he had a great explosive start. He was given 3 x to run, 1st- 4.52, 2nd -4.40 and 3rd- 4.30. He has been timed so many times and it varies depending on the wind, field etc.
Speed and quickness is proven on the field.

************************************************** ***************

Why is he a LB instead of a RB? Either way, I'm very glad he's a Terrier!

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

Meet Jacoby Ford. WR and P/KR at Clemson
http://clemsontigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ford_jacoby01.html



He's football fast too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUXbc5-0u6A

That said, 40 times are the most overrated stat used in football, and usually the one that;s fudged the most. The greatest WR of all-time, Jerry Rice, didn't have an eye popping 40 time. He was fast, but it was body control, precise route running, a great set of hands, and an incredible work ethic is what made him great.
Emmitt Smith didn't have blazing speed either. He's the NFL's all-time leading rusher.


Good night! That boy can straight up run!

[McTailGator]

We have a freshman RB with a 4.48 40. How does this compare with other RBs in FCS?


That's is about right for McNeese's TBs. Depending on whether he was clocked on Grass or a Track, or electronically or by hand.




McNeese's has thre all SLC Wideouts returning with speeds of 4.19, 4.27, and 4.34.

Our DB's all have 4.4 or better times.

[Tribe4SF]

terrierbob- my son is a freshman linebacker and playing for Wofford and ran a 4.30 at the SC State Strength Meet in April of this year.

I agree that 40 times are way overrated! Fortunately, the day my son ran 4.3- the weather was perfect and he had a great explosive start. He was given 3 x to run, 1st- 4.52, 2nd -4.40 and 3rd- 4.30. He has been timed so many times and it varies depending on the wind, field etc.
Speed and quickness is proven on the field.

If the 4.30 were real, it would mean he is faster than any LB who has ever played in the NFL.

[Tribe4SF]

McNeese's has thre all SLC Wideouts returning with speeds of 4.19, 4.27, and 4.34.



So Wofford has the fastest LB ever to play the game, and McNeese has the two fastest WR's to ever play the game.xeekx xbowx xeekx xbowx

[JohnStOnge]

Kind of different subject but I can remember that former Washington Redskin QB Darrell Green...who won the NFL fastest man competition several years in a row while in his prime and who I think had the fastest time in the world in the 100 meters during one of his college years...ran three consecutive 40 yard times of 4.27, 4.28, and 4.30 when he was 38 years old. If I remember correctly he was still the fastest man on the Redskins at that age.

I remember watching a Monday night football game once when the Redskins were playing the Rams with Eric Dickerson. Dickerson broke clean and one of the Monday night crew said, "Goodbye!"

But Darrell Green, who was way behind Dickerson at that point, ran him down like a cheetah running down a warthog. I mean there was no comparison in the speed. Dickerson had no chance.

Last thing: I remember hearing a discussion about Randy Moss when he first came into the league...I think on ESPN. I remember hearing one of the guys...a former NFL player...talking about how Green "schooled" Moss when the two played. Green was around 40 years old at that point.

A great, great player that never got all that much pub because he was low key. But one of my favorites of all time.

[Franks Tanks]

So Wofford has the fastest LB ever to play the game, and McNeese has the two fastest WR's to ever play the game.xeekx xbowx xeekx xbowx

Agreed Tribe, 4.19 40 time is gold metal olympic sprinter speed

[youwouldno]

The Wofford player in question, I thought ran it on a track? Running on a track takes off .2 seconds or so.

[PaladinFan]

Completely useless stats. The most telling stat would be to look at the splits. The really great runners get faster as they go.

baseball times runners in the 60. Makes a lot of sense to me. For the most part those conditions don't change. Dirt is dirt.

Football players are effected by a vast number of conditions. Sprinting on the turf in Boone at 3,500 feet makes a big difference when compared to a guy running on grass in Statesboro.

Very overrated statistic in my opinion. I mean, I don't know what his 40 time was, but Ingle Martin at 6'3 230 lbs was about the fastest guy I saw on a football field in 2005.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Kind of different subject but I can remember that former Washington Redskin QB Darrell Green...who won the NFL fastest man competition several years in a row while in his prime and who I think had the fastest time in the world in the 100 meters during one of his college years...ran three consecutive 40 yard times of 4.27, 4.28, and 4.30 when he was 38 years old. If I remember correctly he was still the fastest man on the Redskins at that age.

I remember watching a Monday night football game once when the Redskins were playing the Rams with Eric Dickerson. Dickerson broke clean and one of the Monday night crew said, "Goodbye!"

But Darrell Green, who was way behind Dickerson at that point, ran him down like a cheetah running down a warthog. I mean there was no comparison in the speed. Dickerson had no chance.

Last thing: I remember hearing a discussion about Randy Moss when he first came into the league...I think on ESPN. I remember hearing one of the guys...a former NFL player...talking about how Green "schooled" Moss when the two played. Green was around 40 years old at that point.

A great, great player that never got all that much pub because he was low key. But one of my favorites of all time.



John,

We played against Green in 1982, when Texas A&I came to The Hole. I watched Stephen Starring do the most amazing thing I"ve ever seen on a football field. On a busted play, he managed to get loose down the left sideline, Green had the angle on him and Stephen found a gear I've never seen before or since on a football field and simply blew past him to score...

Of course, Stephen was phenomenal at that sorta stuff. He logged a 4.26 on wet grass in tennis shoes in 1983 for the pro-scouts which was the fastest time they saw that year. Zem watched him run a 4.2something for them in the rec complex that same year.

To put Stephen's talent in perspective, at the 1983 SLC trackmeet, he won three individual events. The 110 Meter hurdles at 13.7, the long jump in the 26 feet range and 50 something feet in the triple jump. The following year, Stephen went from college QB to WR/KR for the Patriots while the guy who finished second to him in all three events at the SLC trackmeet went on to a little notariety himself. Perhaps you remember Al Joyner who won the 1984 Oly Triple Jump gold medal? I don't think Stephen ever lost to him in college, but I could be mistaken.

I don't think Green, who graduated in 1983, ever had the fastest time in the world in the 100 meters, but I could be wrong. In 1981, it was Mel Lattany from Georgia, with a 10.01, until the NCAA championship meet when Carl Lewis went 9.99 to outlean former Ohio State running back Jeffrey Philips, who transferrred to Tenneseee, at 10.00. Lattany was third or fourth in 10.19 or 10.20. Herschel Walker was in that same race and ran a 10.34 after qualifying with a 10.26 that year.

In 1982, it was Lewis again. Same for 1983. I don't recall Green qualifying for the NCAA's, but I could be wrong. I'd have to dig out my old Track and Field News copies to be sure.

40 yard dash speed and 100 meter speed aren't the same. Most of the great 100 meter dash guys really come on in the last 50 meters...

It would not suprise me at all for a guy who's trained for the 40 to beat a world class sprinter who trains for longer distances. 100 meter dash guys are incredibly fast, but they train for a different kind of explosiveness and they run the 100 in "stages" with transitions in posture, form and style at various points in the dash. At the 40 yard mark, they're just beginning the transition from the start to a full sprint.

But, beyond all that, the 40 really doesn't tell you a whole lot about whether or not a guy can play or whether or not he can carry his pads...

As fast as Starring was, I've seen one guy who was, I believe, even faster than either him or Green: The late Joe Delaney.

I've had that opinion validated by a very reliable source, who chased both Starring and Delaney who says that Delaney was even faster on the football field than Starring was, possibly carrying his pads better.

Remembering that Delaney ran the kick-ass second leg for Northwestern's 1981 NCAA championship 4x100 meter relay squad, I'm of the opinion that my source is more than likely correct. I personally watched Delaney take the stick that day about a yard behind both Jeffrey Phillips, who owned a 10.00, and Lattany, who had a 10.1, and by the time Northwestern made the next exchange Delaney had them about three yards in front. That's the best relay leg I've ever seen in person. The great Mark Duper held off Herschel Walker for Georgia, Lewis for Houston and Willie Gault from Tennessee to win it for Northwestern. I'll never forget to oooooh's and ahhhhhhhh's as Delaney burned up the back stretch on that second leg of the relay.

40-yard dash times get debated every year for good reason. Hand timing is notoriously suspect and is dependent upon the reflexes of the folks doing the timing. Nobody runs the 40 with fully automatic timing, so it's circle jerk with regard to debating about comparative 40-yard dash times. Add to that the fact that nobody runs the 40 for time with full gear on and you can see that 40-yard dash times provide an incomplete picture, at best, of speed....

[Uncle Buck]

Granted i coach shot and disc, but my fellow coach who ran track at Marist said the standard conversion from hand time to FAT (computer) is to add .24 seconds to the hand time.

[JohnStOnge]

I don't think Green, who graduated in 1983, ever had the fastest time in the world in the 100 meters, but I could be wrong. ...

I'd seen it before but here is one link:

http://www.sportscombine.com/default.asp?af_id=279

A quote:

"While running track at Texas A&I during the 1982-1983 season, Darrell Green recorded the fastest time in the world in the 100 meter dash. Over a 20 year career, Darrell was the fastest player on the Redskins team, as well as the only undefeated and four time winner of the NFL Fastest Man competition.

Over the course of 25 years, Darrell clocked a 44.3 second 400-meter dash, 20.5 second 200-meter dash, 10.08 second 100-meter dash, and a 4.15 40-yard dash. In the summer of 2004, at the age of 44, Darrell showed that his techniques still work when he recorded a 4.36 40-yard dash during a running demonstration at a youth summer football camp.
"

I loved watching Stephen Starring play. I watched him in high school at Vinton. I watched him in college at McNeese. I saw him play a few times in the pros at New England. No way he was as fast as Green. If he really did pull away from Green in a college game, Green must've had some kind of problem at the time.

I'm a McNeese fan. But there's just no way. Starring was not as fast as Green. Neither was DeLaney (though he was very fast).

[Smendy]

Agree. Also, many of the 40 times are not comparable. They can be hand-timed or electronic. They can be run on grass, on turf, or on a track. They can be wind-aided or not. ETC.

So true. I knew this is a FCS site, but here's a story from an FBS school that provides evidence how unreliable 40 times can be:

Gil Brandt of NFL.com reported last spring that Brigham Young's players run on a 'tilted field', so they are timed twice -- once up the slight incline; once downhill.....

Obviously, the biased papers in Provo and Salt Lake report only the downhill times (which are much faster), so Cougar fans are left to believe there players are being cheated one draft day, when their draft position doesn't match their fancy workout times xeyebrowx

[FormerPokeCenter]

I'd seen it before but here is one link:

http://www.sportscombine.com/default.asp?af_id=279

A quote:

"While running track at Texas A&I during the 1982-1983 season, Darrell Green recorded the fastest time in the world in the 100 meter dash. Over a 20 year career, Darrell was the fastest player on the Redskins team, as well as the only undefeated and four time winner of the NFL Fastest Man competition.

Over the course of 25 years, Darrell clocked a 44.3 second 400-meter dash, 20.5 second 200-meter dash, 10.08 second 100-meter dash, and a 4.15 40-yard dash. In the summer of 2004, at the age of 44, Darrell showed that his techniques still work when he recorded a 4.36 40-yard dash during a running demonstration at a youth summer football camp.
"

I loved watching Stephen Starring play. I watched him in high school at Vinton. I watched him in college at McNeese. I saw him play a few times in the pros at New England. No way he was as fast as Green. If he really did pull away from Green in a college game, Green must've had some kind of problem at the time.

I'm a McNeese fan. But there's just no way. Starring was not as fast as Green. Neither was DeLaney (though he was very fast).

John,

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on the comparative speed thing. I don't think you have enough data to say, conclusively, that Green was faster than Delaney. The comparison with Starring may be relatively subjective, but I saw Stephen blow past Green with my own eyes. I also watched Stephen school a future Olympic gold medallist with ease.

As to Delaney, I watched him walk down the fastest man in the world (at the time) from a yard back and hand off with a three yard lead with my own eyes. The NCAA recorded the event for posterity and declared Delaney and his teammates the National Champs in the sprint relay in 1981. Now, in head up competition, from a controlled start, he might not have been able to do that. But with a flying start, Delaney was faster than Mel Lattany, Dwaye Evans or Jeffrey Phillips, who owned a 10.00. And I don't mean body lean faster, I mean a full three-four yards faster.

I've seen some bad-ass relay legs in person, including a few by Lewis and I'm here to tell you that the fastest relay leg I've ever seen, by anybody, anywhere was Delaney. And, I'm not the only person to say that. It's a shame Delaney died so young because I think he'd have had something to say about Green's "NFL's Fastest Man" titles.

Remember, Delaney drowned in the summer of 1983, after he was the 1981 NFL Rookie of the Year. His death came about 9 months or so before Green was drafted out of A&I.

I did some research. I couldn't find any actual reportage of the 10.08 itself, or the 44.3, but I found references to them on Green's website. I found references in a couple of news stories from the late 90's wherein it was reported that he had recorded the second fastest time in the country when in college, behind Carl Lewis, but that's a full 15 years after the event was supposed to have occurred. To me, it's significant that I can't find any contemporary references to it, though.

What stands out in my mind is that there were a ton of guys running in college at the time, including Olympians Dwayne Evans of Arizona State, Stanley Floyd of Auburn and Houston, Lewis, etc. Floyd was, as best I can recall, always number two in the world to Lewis. Track and Field News doesn't have it or the 44.3 time in the 400 meters listed, although both marks would easily qualify for the "fastest collegiate times ever" lists they maintain. The 20.5 is a little slow to be included on their lists.

Which, brings me to another point. The 200 meter time quoted is fast, but not in line with the 100 meter time reported or the 44.3 in the 400. I wonder if those were relay splits, because lots of people will sneak a relay split in on you if you're no careful when talking about fastest times ever. I, myself, have been guilty of that on occasion ;) I had one sub 50 time in the 400 in HS, but had a 49.1 on a relay leg, so - of course - the 49.1 is MY version of my fastest 400 ever ;)

Another factor is that it's very, very windy during the spring down around Kingsville. I make several trips to the coast right near Kingsville each spring to windsurf for that very reason. I can believe a wind aided 10.08 down there. With my parents being A&I alums, and as big a track and field nut as I was back during that particular point in time, I've gotta believe that I'd remember if an A&I guy had a legitimate 10.08.

That 44.3 time is right up there with times posted by Olympic champs Micheal Johnson and Lee Evans while they were in college and is faster than Danny Everett and Bert Cameron, both guys who went to the Olympics in the 400.

I'm not saying that Green isn't phenomenally fast. But if he's THAT fast over those three distances, he missed his calling by not taking a shot at the Olympics. I think the 200 meter time is particularly telling, because it's not consistent with a 10.08 in the 100. It means he would have run the second 100 slower than the first. A world class 200 meter dash guy has the benefit of a flying start and runs the second 100 faster than the first...

It's extremely odd for a guy to have blistering 100 and 400 times, but a relatively pedestrian time in the 200. You expect a significant drop off between the 200 and the 400, but not necessarily between the 100 and 200.

I think with some detailed research, we'll find that some of those times are either extrapolated from relay splits or wind aided, or both.

I think you may want to rethink the Delaney/Green thing or try to dig for some more evidence. To me, the available evidence supports Delaney being faster than Green.

[KiddBrewer]

Not sure about the 40 time, but Dexter Jackson (WR) ran the 100 meters in 10.72 back in May at the Duke Asics Meet in Durham. Anything under 4.5 is flying!!!


dexter runs around 4.28 i believe

[Tailbone]

yeah, all these guys are pretty fast but we have a RS frosh who is so fast that he finishes his 40 ten seconds before he starts. :D

[KiddBrewer]

bobby morrison, the rb at the high school i graduated from ran a 4.33 at a Nike camp earlier in the summer. good news, hes got appalachian on his short list

[JohnStOnge]

FPC, one thing that was very public is that Green won the NFL fastest man competition four times in a row. I don't think anybody else has ever won it even twice in a row. Maybe.

In any case, he was beating Olympic sprinters Willie Gault and Ron Brown when he did it. It was at 60 yards; but still. I can't recall if those two were in all four times but I'm pretty sure Gault was in it more than once.

I found this link:

http://www.bossiercity.org/centennial/sports/joe_delaney.htm

saying DeLaney set a NW State school record in the 100 meters at 10.26.

I found this link:

http://www.javelinaathletics.com/UserFiles/File/2007_Media_guide(3).pdf

Referring to Green as the "LSC 100-meter record holder" (see very bottom of last page) and did a search on "LSC 100 meter record" to find this link:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/sports/track/records/tf%20records.pdf

It shows Green as the Lone Star Conference record holder in the 100 meters at 10.08 (1983).

Would it be listed as the conference record if it was wind aided? I don't know. But it looks to me like Green's fastest time in competition at Texas A&I was almost 2 tenths of a second faster than DeLaney's fastest time at Northwestern State.

As far as Starring...I've got to think that if he was capable of running anything like a 10.08...wind aided or not...we'd be remembering him as a great 100 meters sprinter at McNeese. Did he even run the 100 meters at McNeese? If not...and if he was in the league of people like Green and DeLaney in terms of pure sprinter speed...why not?

Maybe the reason you didn't hear about what Green did in 1983 is that he was running in the NAIA and not the NCAA.

[FormerPokeCenter]

John,

I did some digging. The fastest time I can find substantiated on Green is the actual LSC meet record of 10.24, which is right in line withe Delaney's best time. I went to the NAIA records listings and champion listings and Nigeria's Innocent Egunike was the 100 meter champ in 1982 and 1983 with times in the 10.3 range. Green did win the NAIA 200 a time or two with times in the 21.4 and 20.6 range.

The 10.08 is listed as the best performance by an LSC athlete, but it's not the conference record as near as I can tell.

I wouldnt' find ANY listing of Green with times under 20.6 in the 200 and I couldnt find any listings of any 44.3 in the 400 anywhere. Neither the LSC nor the NAIA list that 44.3 on any list they maintain, though it would be easily one of the best performances in their history.

I can believe a 10.24, but a 10.08 is an anamoly compared to bonafide published times. In 1983, a 10.08 would've attracted a LOT of attention because it was right before the LA Games. I'm not ready to say that it didn't happen, but I've gotta believe that it was either hand timed, with a wind, at altitude or something similar. I seriously doubt it's a 10.08 FAT.

There's no denying that Green was phenomenally fast, but he wasn't THAT fast.

Starring did, in fact, run the 100 a time or two at McNeese and was in the high 10.2, low 10.3 range, right there with Green and Delaney. He was more valuable in the hurdles and jumps where he was good for 30 points a meet, plus the sprint relay. But, the main reason why you wouldn't have seen Stephen running the 100 that much was because we had Verril Young who had a best of 10.19 FAT while at McNeese.

As to Ron Brown and Willie Gault, Gault was a hurdler who ran on some World Cup championship relay teams. He qualified to run on the relays in 1980, but we boycotted that year. He was never an Olympian in track and field, though I believe he qualified as a Winter Olympian later in the Bobsled....

Brown has a gold medal on the sprint relay from 1984 and was 4th in the 100 meters...

We'll still have to agree to disagree. I don't see anything that supports the notion that Green was demonstrably faster than Delaney. If anything, I'd say there right there very close to each other.

The thing about a 10.08 in an NAIA meet is that unless it has a wind-aided, hand-timed, altitude or other asterisk next to it, it woulda been trumpted around the country. He woulda been invited to every big meet in the world with that sorta time.

[cockyterrierman]

terrierbob-I completely agree with you! He was moved from offense to defense his senior year in HS because he grew a couple of more inches and put on alot of muscle. Anyway, he ran the ball a few times his senior year and did a awesome job-- still has many scratching their heads. Yeah, I cannot wait until the first game- Wofford has alot of very talented and athletic freshmans!!!! Go Terriers!

No, he did not run on a track. He ran in football cleats and on grass.
I posted a link for you to review. He now holds the all time record at the state strength meet for all weight divisions.
His name is -- Jonathon Sharpe and was in the 205lb. weight class.
http://scvarsity.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=656631
http://www.crestwoodfootball.com/strengthcoach.htm
The 2nd site shows where he now holds the record for 2007.

The weird thing is-- he has had to prove himself over and over again because people just cannot grasp that a 17 year old white kid can run that fast. Heck, his HS head coach made him run the 40 in front of him when his HS strength coach timed running a 4.30 as a junior - but with a rabbit. He ran a 4.49 that day.
Due to the fact that he is only 17 and peaked his senior year, he flew right under the radar as far as recruiting goes, even though he was on of the top lb's in the state.

[JohnStOnge]

The 10.08 is listed as the best performance by an LSC athlete, but it's not the conference record as near as I can tell..

This is how I got to the LSC page on him running a 10.08:

I did a Google search on Lone Star conference. I got to here:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/landing/index

Then I clicked on "Track" and got to here:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/sports/track/index

Then I pointed on "Records" and selected "Men's" and got to here:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/sports/track/records/tf%20records.pdf

Where it lists Green's 10.08 time.

The Lone Star Conference, at least on its internet site, is clearly representing Green's 10.08 time as the Lone Star Conference Record.

You're right about Gault not actually sprinting in the Olympics. But he was on a 4 x 400 meter relay team that set a world record at the time in the 1983 World Track and Field Championships. And, as you said, Ron Brown won a Gold in an Olympic 4 x 400 meter relay team and placed 4th in the 100 meters. I don't see how you can dismiss Green beating those guys in the NFL fastest man's competition. To my knowledge, neither Starring nor DeLaney ever did anything like that in head to head sprints against world class sprinters of that stature. I'm not talking about a relay. I'm talking about lining up at the starting line with people like Gault or Brown and beating them.

[FormerPokeCenter]

This is how I got to the LSC page on him running a 10.08:

I did a Google search on Lone Star conference. I got to here:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/landing/index

Then I clicked on "Track" and got to here:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/sports/track/index

Then I pointed on "Records" and selected "Men's" and got to here:

http://www.lonestarconference.org/sports/track/records/tf%20records.pdf

Where it lists Green's 10.08 time.

The Lone Star Conference, at least on its internet site, is clearly representing Green's 10.08 time as the Lone Star Conference Record.

You're right about Gault not actually sprinting in the Olympics. But he was on a 4 x 400 meter relay team that set a world record at the time in the 1983 World Track and Field Championships. And, as you said, Ron Brown won a Gold in an Olympic 4 x 400 meter relay team and placed 4th in the 100 meters. I don't see how you can dismiss Green beating those guys in the NFL fastest man's competition. To my knowledge, neither Starring nor DeLaney ever did anything like that in head to head sprints against world class sprinters of that stature. I'm not talking about a relay. I'm talking about lining up at the starting line with people like Gault or Brown and beating them.


Perhaps it's a semantics issue, but the PDF you reference lists the 10.08 under "best marks ever" rather than calling it "Conference records" while listing the conference meet records as records. In track parlance, there's some specific validation criteria that have to be met in order for something to be a conference record. Perhaps I'm being overly technical, but when I read "best marks ever" that leaves some room for equivocation.

The NFL's fastest man is held at the ProBowl, after the season, a week or so after the SuperBowl. While it's a great measure of head to head, it's not exactly conducted when everybody's at their best in terms of training, etc.

I can discount the NFL's fastest man competiton because I watched Joe Delaney walk down Mel Lattany, Jeffrey Philips (who was faster than his teammate Willie Gault) and Dwayne Evans who were all Olympic caliber sprinters. I can discount it because Delaney died before being able to go head to head with Green. I can discount it because in head to head sprint competition, Green got beat in the 100 by Innocent Egbunike in a relatively pedestrian 10.3. Egbunike was primarily a 400 meter runner and I can discount it because other than Darrell Green's website, I can't find any direct references to two marks attributed to him, the 20.5 and the 44.3, despite the fact that both marks would be worthy of inclusion on the A&I, LSC and NAIA lists of all-time best performances. Most of Green's marks were 10.2 and 10.3's, right in the same range with DeLaney and Starring....The 10.08 appears to be an anamoly to me...

[ivyfan]

This pretty much covers all you need to know!xnodx

Forty times are bogus in the NFL
April 17, 2001
BY CLARK JUDGE
FOXSports.com

There is something that makes no sense to me, and, for once, it doesn't involve Mark Cuban. No, it's what I'm hearing about Michael Vick, the first choice in this weekend's draft. The word starting to make the rounds on the Virginia Tech quarterback is that he can run the 40 in less than 4.3 seconds.

I never saw Vick run a 40, and I wasn't at his workout at Virginia Tech. But one thing I can guarantee is this: Vick cannot run the 40 in under 4.3 seconds. Heck, he can't run it under 4.4, either.

That's not a knock on Vick. It's a knock on an NFL practice that is absolutely, positively out of whack. I'm talking about 40-yard dash times. They're the standard by which draft-eligible players are measured, and they're as reliable as UFO sightings.

Yet when the NFL begins its march of draftees on Saturday you're going to hear how one running back ran a 4.32, a wide receiver peeled off a 4.34 or some 350-pound lummox breezed through a 4.85. It makes for good copy. But so did Paul Bunyan.

"The only way to get a true 40-yard dash time is to get electronic timing where a man breaks a wire when he leaves the starting gate," said Buffalo's vice president in charge of player personnel, Dwight Adams. "The 40 is a common denominator in football, but it's blown way out of proportion. It's physically impossible to run a 4.2 and, probably, a 4.3."

Don't tell that to the guys holding stopwatches. I remember when Vance Johnson, then a wide receiver at the University of Arizona, ran the 40 in 4.19 seconds. At least that's what I was told. I guess Denver was, too, because the Broncos made him their second-round draft pick in 1985.

I also remember when Laveranues Coles, then a wide receiver at Florida State, was supposed to have run a 4.16. Nobody said anything about it being wind-aided, but it would have taken Hurricane Andrew to push him to a finish like that. The Jets media guide has him clocked at 4.29 last year, and there was no wind advisory there, either.

The NFL scouting combine has been using electronic timing since 1990, but that's one year after Deion Sanders set the standard against which all others are measured. Sanders ran a 4.29 in Prime Time, and nobody has beaten the mark since.

"You've got to take into consideration that most of these times are done with stopwatches," said San Diego State's Rahn Sheffield, coach of the women's track and field squad and a former track star himself. "A 4.2 really translates to a 4.4. When you hand time (dashes) it opens up room for human error. So when a Marshall Faulk runs a 4.33, it really equates to a 4.5."

All of which comes as no news to Adams, who for years has laughed off 40-yard dashes and vertical jumps and long jumps as insignificant measures of a football prospect's abilities. He's more interested in production, which makes a lot of sense to me . and anyone else who believes stopwatches weren't made for football.

Remember when Jerry Rice emerged from Mississippi Valley State in 1985? He was supposed to be too slow. Same with USC running back Marcus Allen. Yeah, well, I never saw a defensive back who could catch Rice from behind until he tore up his knee, and Allen's a lock for the Hall of Fame.

O.J. Simpson might have been the fastest back to play the game. Go ahead and make a case for Bo Jackson. Maybe Herschel Walker, too. But Simpson ran a leg on Southern Cal's 440-yard relay team, one that set a world record, and if he were in this year's draft he'd be the fastest running back by far; faster than Big-10 sprint champion Michael Bennett. Faster than LaDainian Tomlinson. Faster than Deuce McAllister.

Any idea what Simpson ran for a 40? I do. Try 4.5. If you don't believe him ask. He said it shortly after he left USC.

"I must've missed something here," said Adams. "I spent some time this spring with an Olympic sprinter, and we sat in a stadium together, watching guys work out and talking about how the 40-yard dash times were way overdone."

The sprinter was Dennis Mitchell. Yeah, THAT Dennis Mitchell. He and Adams were together at the University of Florida, and when they heard times of some of the guys they watched Mitchell said nothing. He just shook his head.

"He was a little shocked," said Adams. "Being a great sprinter, he'd never seen so many people running 4.1s and 4.2s. I've talked to (track coach) Brooks Johnson and others who say, 'You football people are way ahead of us.' Of course, they're facetious."

If Adams had his way, he'd rely more on times for shorter distances -- especially for offensive and defensive linemen. Make them stop running 40s and time them for 10s, maybe 20s. That's all they usually cover, anyway.

"I could see it," said Cleveland's vice president in charge of football operations, Dwight Clark. "But for running backs, wide receivers and defensive backs, I'd like to see the 40 stay."

The Browns don't rely on others' times. They clock prospects themselves, and if they don't, they don't have a record of them. The Browns never timed anyone at 4.2. They never timed anyone at 4.3, either, though they had the University of Arizona's Trung Canidate at 4.32 last year. I wasn't at that workout, either, but I know something was wrong.

And here's why. The fastest starter I ever saw was sprinter Ben Johnson, and at the 1988 Seoul Olympics track and field's fastest starter ran the 100 meters in a blistering 9.79 seconds, a time that later was disallowed after Johnson tested positive for steroids. Know how fast he covered the first 40? It was 4.69 seconds. Forty meters is approximately 44 yards, which means Johnson ran the first 40 in 4.26.
So, now, let's see if I have this straight: The chemically enhanced Johnson, the fastest starter in track history, ran the fastest 100 in history . only it was one-tenth of a second slower than Laveranues Coles a year ago and three one-hundreths of a second ahead of Sanders' NFL combine record.
It makes you wonder. It makes you wonder why anyone believes this stuff.

[grizband]

After searching for "fastest 40 times" on Google, I was linked to the following Wikipedia site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_yard_dash.

This site lists the two fastest 40s at the NFL combine as a 4.25 by Fabian Washington in 2005, and a 4.29 by Deion Sanders in 1989. The article also mentions that hand-timing results in lower times than electronic timing, sometimes as much as .25 seconds faster.

[straightshooter]

In addition to those from GSU already mentioned, the GSU media guide also lists CB Brandon Jackson at 4.38 and WR Lynon Jefferson at 4.39. All of these times are on grass.

[cockyterrierman]

ivyfan I agree with the article you posted. There is a difference in running the 40 and being timed by a stopwatch verses electronically. What I have found is the explosiveness in the start makes all the difference. Running the 40 is like an art- you have to practice, practice, practice. Along with raw speed you must have a perfect explosive start and excellent form. In today's world, the 40 time has become one of the most important part of testing the athleticism in a player. I still say, the true test is on the field. Some players may not always test well in the 40, but are extremely quick on the field.

[BULLDOG8180]

ivyfan I agree with the article you posted. There is a difference in running the 40 and being timed by a stopwatch verses electronically. What I have found is the explosiveness in the start makes all the difference. Running the 40 is like an art- you have to practice, practice, practice. Along with raw speed you must have a perfect explosive start and excellent form. In today's world, the 40 time has become one of the most important part of testing the athleticism in a player. I still say, the true test is on the field. Some players may not always test well in the 40, but are extremely quick on the field.

Exactly Cocky! The 40 is a test, not a race. I conduct speed camps during the summer and individual instruction and mini-camps during the fall, winter, and spring. We first analyze running form and starting technique. Practice drills to improve form (always necessary), find best starting stance for athlete to maximize controlled explosion, and practice this. Practice the first 20 steps or so (accelaration phase). Practice the maximum velocity stage. One of the toughest things to teach is that after you reach top speed, you need to conserve energy, it doesn't take as much effort to maintain speed as it does to get there.

Praticing starts, along with the acceleration and maximum phases and proper form are key, and you can see significant improvement from just doing these things. But in order to reach maximum potential, you have to spend alot of time developing your core strength, to maximize your explosiveness.

Jothanan is great example of someone who has maximized his potential through practice and dedication in the weight room.

[cockyterrierman]

BULLDOG8180 -Thanks for the post! I may not have put it in such educated terms (lol) but that is exactly what he has done to prepare for the 40. I was a sprinter in school and was taught how to explode in my start as well as accelerating with proper form by my father who was a sprinter for USC track team back in the day. Anyway, Jonathon struggles with his start and form -from time to time which can make a huge difference in his time. Once you master the art of the 40 yd dash, players with raw speed can put up unbelievable numbers.