Eric Gagne Washed Up... (like I said)

[Cleets]

Gagne traded for great young pitcher... (Yikes..!) that was bad enough... I complained then... NOW:

has stratospheric ERA since arriving in Boston... plus figures large in two games that were "in the bag" he blows them both...

I think he's a spy secretly working for the Yankees (it's just a hunch) xoopsx

[UNHWildCats]

Gabbard isnt a great young pitcher... hes decent but not great.

[CopperCat]

Here we go again. Season is in the home stretch, and the Sox are blowing their lead. I HATE watching this.

[grizband]

Here we go again. Season is in the home stretch, and the Sox are blowing their lead. I HATE watching this.
I love it! Go Mariners! Go Twins! Go Tigers!

[CopperCat]

I love it! Go Mariners! Go Twins! Go Tigers!

I've always liked the Mariners, but I will NEVER root for the Twinkies or the Tigglers.

[grizband]

I've always liked the Mariners, but I will NEVER root for the Twinkies or the Tigglers.

Proximity got me interested in the Mariners. Living with a dude from Minnesota got me interested in the Twins. They are a fun team to watch, especially last year when they came from nowhere to win the division on the last day.

[CopperCat]

gagne is down right awful,if i was francona i would not use him again.

The GM might have something to say about that, mostly because they went and spent some money on Gagne (not alot, but enough).

[Cleets]

Who does not love the Mariners..!!!

You-nez-ski Bet-an-court

My new favorite player....

[SuperJon]

Funny how everyone accuses Bonds of steroids and doesn't say a word about Gagne when, to me, it's completely obvious.

[SuperJon]

By the way, posted July 26:


I generally hate the Yankees, but with how cocky the Red Sox fans got earlier this year, I'm really hoping the Yankees come back, win the division, and lose first round.

[YaleFootballFan]

Did anyone notice how loud Red Sox fans were booing Gagne in Baltimore? That's right IN Baltimore!

Gagne is only part of the problem. Boston's inability to drive in runs has been a major problem of late. They're getting the hits, but once they're on base, they're left stranded. No clutch hitting. Today the Red Sox left 9 men on base, 7 of which were in scoring position. They should've scored at least 8 runs today for Schill.

Totally unacceptable.

Thank GOD Tampa Bay is next on the schedule.....

[Eyes of Old Main]

Funny how everyone accuses Bonds of steroids and doesn't say a word about Gagne when, to me, it's completely obvious.

I'll agree with that.

[SuperJon]

whats obvious?

Dude's never any good, ever. Then, at the height of the steroids stuff, he goes on this incredible streak where he never blows a lead. He never gets hurt, he never has anything negative happen. Then, the year they start testing, all of a sudden he's getting hurt every other day, blowing leads on days he doesn't get hurt, and frankly isn't that good. To me, that's obvious.

[AZGrizFan]

Dude's never any good, ever. Then, at the height of the steroids stuff, he goes on this incredible streak where he never blows a lead. He never gets hurt, he never has anything negative happen. Then, the year they start testing, all of a sudden he's getting hurt every other day, blowing leads on days he doesn't get hurt, and frankly isn't that good. To me, that's obvious.

Either that or he's just a fat Canadian who got lucky. xthumbsupx

[HiHiYikas]

I was at that O's game yesterday. Good, good stuff.

Gagne probably ought to retire from baseball and join Sidney Ponson on the professional eating circuit.

[Ivytalk]

Either that or he's just a fat Canadian who got lucky. xthumbsupx

And a FRENCH Canadian at that!:p

Cue the reflexive pro-French post from mainejeff.;)

[Mr. C]

Dude's never any good, ever. Then, at the height of the steroids stuff, he goes on this incredible streak where he never blows a lead. He never gets hurt, he never has anything negative happen. Then, the year they start testing, all of a sudden he's getting hurt every other day, blowing leads on days he doesn't get hurt, and frankly isn't that good. To me, that's obvious.

While I'm not going to speculate on whether Gagne did Roids or not, I will say that you mis-characterize his career. Gagne was typical of a lot of young players coming up. He was impressive in the minors, had a setback with Tommy John surgery and overcame it. When he came up the first time as a starter, he extremely well at the end of the season (I remember seeing his first game, when he pitched six shutout innings against the Florida Marlins). He finished the year with a 2.10 ERA in five games. He had issues with command and composure as a starter the next two years, but there was NEVER any doubt about his stuff. Finally, after 48 starts in three years, the Dodgers decided to try him as a short man in the bullpen and he immediately florished. His track as a pitcher was similar to many other young hurlers.

I have seen Gagne a few times this season and while he doesn't have the same fastball he did a few years ago, he still is hitting 93 on the gun and still has a good curve and change-up. What is going on with Gagne right now is he is trying too hard to do well for his new team and lacking a bit of command in the strike zone. Give him a few weeks and he will settle in and be fine. Watch out for him in the postseason. With him and Papelbon, I could see the Sox being similar to the 1996 Yankees, with Rivera and Wetteland closing things out.

[Marcus Garvey]

What??? xeekx
You mean a "lights out" closer only had 3 or so good years and is now washed up? I mean like... when has that ever happened? xrolleyesx

That's it. Dennis Eckersly will be the only "1 inning closer" ever to make the hall of fame. He was the exception. Nobody else has been able to put together more than 3 or 4 good seasons in a row in that roll.

[bluehenbillk]

The Sox have multiple issues. Obviously getting to Papelbon is one, but the team is having trouble scoring, which should never happen with this lineup. At least there is 11 games left against Tampa, maybe Wakefield can pitch 3 more against them.

[JoltinJoe]

That's it. Dennis Eckersly will be the only "1 inning closer" ever to make the hall of fame. He was the exception. Nobody else has been able to put together more than 3 or 4 good seasons in a row in that roll.

I assume you're excluding Mariano Rivera because he's not a "one inning closer" and routinely nails down six out saves. Correct?

Rivera is a first-ballot HOFer.

[Marcus Garvey]

I assume you're excluding Mariano Rivera because he's not a "one inning closer" and routinely nails down six out saves. Correct?

Rivera is a first-ballot HOFer.

I forgot about Rivera. But out of the dozens upon dozens of 1 inning guys to come along, he's the only one who's stayed consistent since Eck. For every 1 pitcher like Rivera, there are 30 Eric Gagnes, Heathcliff Slocumbs, Mark Davises, etc...

[Ivytalk]

I forgot about Rivera. But out of the dozens upon dozens of 1 inning guys to come along, he's the only one who's stayed consistent since Eck. For every 1 pitcher like Rivera, there are 30 Eric Gagnes, Heathcliff Slocumbs, Mark Davises, etc...

And the immortal Fred "Flintstone" Gladding!xlolx

[JoltinJoe]

I forgot about Rivera. But out of the dozens upon dozens of 1 inning guys to come along, he's the only one who's stayed consistent since Eck. For every 1 pitcher like Rivera, there are 30 Eric Gagnes, Heathcliff Slocumbs, Mark Davises, etc...

I hear you, but don't forget Trevor Hoffman too.

[Cleets]

And a FRENCH Canadian at that!:p

Cue the reflexive pro-French post from mainejeff.;)

And Cleets..!!!!

[Cleets]

I assume you're excluding Mariano Rivera because he's not a "one inning closer" and routinely nails down six out saves. Correct?

Rivera is a first-ballot HOFer.

He's in a class all by himself as far as I'm concerned... xnodx
and I'm no Yankee fan...

fist full of World Series rings
something like 20 plus scoreless play-off innings pitched
microscopic career ERA
he was lights-out for a decade after the 7th inning
could regularly pitch 5 or 6 outs (no problem)
Pitched 88 straight innings without giving up back-to-back hits (how do you do that..?)
the list of odd yet amazing stats next to Mariano's name is a staggering list


(and I repeat: I'm no Yankee fan)

[AZGrizFan]

I forgot about Rivera. But out of the dozens upon dozens of 1 inning guys to come along, he's the only one who's stayed consistent since Eck. For every 1 pitcher like Rivera, there are 30 Eric Gagnes, Heathcliff Slocumbs, Mark Davises, etc...

I'd have to put Trevor Hoffman in the Rivera column too. xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

[Marcus Garvey]

I'd have to put Trevor Hoffman in the Rivera column too. xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

I've never heard of Hoffman, but that's mostly because he plays for the Padres! ZING!!!!
Still, 3 guys in the last 20 years who've been consitently good at a so-called "crucial" role on a team's roster.

I'd rather have a reliever in the mold of Tug McGraw, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry, etc... Infintely more useful to a team.

I'm amazed that organizations continue to foster the belief that they have to have a 1-inning shutdown guy, considering the appalling failure rate for developing said players.

[Cleets]

I've never heard of Hoffman, but that's mostly because he plays for the Padres! ZING!!!!
Still, 3 guys in the last 20 years who've been consitently good at a so-called "crucial" role on a team's roster.

I'd rather have a reliever in the mold of Tug McGraw, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry, etc... Infintely more useful to a team.

I'm amazed that organizations continue to foster the belief that they have to have a 1-inning shutdown guy, considering the appalling failure rate for developing said players.

Read "Money Ball"
he completely agrees with you on that topic... (a great book) xnodx

[Marcus Garvey]

Read "Money Ball"
he completely agrees with you on that topic... (a great book) xnodx

I haven't read the book. But there's a reason the Athletics are consistently competitive without a Yankees type budget.

[AZGrizFan]

I've never heard of Hoffman, but that's mostly because he plays for the Padres! ZING!!!!
Still, 3 guys in the last 20 years who've been consitently good at a so-called "crucial" role on a team's roster.

I'd rather have a reliever in the mold of Tug McGraw, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry, etc... Infintely more useful to a team.

I'm amazed that organizations continue to foster the belief that they have to have a 1-inning shutdown guy, considering the appalling failure rate for developing said players.

3 guys? Do the names Lee Smith, John Franco, Randy Myers, John Wetteland, Billy Wagner, Troy Percival, Rob Nen, Dan Quisenberry, Sparky Lyle, etc., ring a bell? And there are lots of other guys who might not have been lights out year after year, but who had several (a lot more than just three) years of productivity as closers.

Granted, Dennis Eckersley may have had the most amazing career in baseball as a pitcher, with 197 wins AND 390 saves, but that shouldn't minimize what some of these other guys have done.

[Marcus Garvey]

3 guys? Do the names Lee Smith, John Franco, Randy Myers, John Wetteland, Billy Wagner, Troy Percival, Rob Nen, Dan Quisenberry, Sparky Lyle, etc., ring a bell? And there are lots of other guys who might not have been lights out year after year, but who had several (a lot more than just three) years of productivity as closers.

Granted, Dennis Eckersley may have had the most amazing career in baseball as a pitcher, with 197 wins AND 390 saves, but that shouldn't minimize what some of these other guys have done.

Let's qualify this shall we...
I'm bitching about 1 inning closers and how a "Lights Out" version of said closer seldom has 3 or 4 good years in him. Quz and Lyle were not 1 inning guys.
Rob Nen was hot and cold. He'd get 35+ saves, but alternate each year between and ERA below 2 and an ERA from 3 to 4 (closer 4 a numbe of years). An ERA that high equals Blown Saves which means that you are night "Lights Out."
Billy Wagner: Good, but not lights out. He's not making anyone's ballot if he were to retire right now.
Randy Myers: Career ERA of 3.91, all as a reliever... yuck
Wetteland: From '96 - '99 he had 40+ saves 3 of those years, but was out of baseball by 2001. That makes Johnny boy the poster child for my rant about the 1 inning closer.
Lee Smith was only "Lights out" for 3 or 4 years in a row. Again, that's what I'm bitching about.

[AZGrizFan]

Let's qualify this shall we...
I'm bitching about 1 inning closers and how a "Lights Out" version of said closer seldom has 3 or 4 good years in him. Quz and Lyle were not 1 inning guys.
Rob Nen was hot and cold. He'd get 35+ saves, but alternate each year between and ERA below 2 and an ERA from 3 to 4 (closer 4 a numbe of years). An ERA that high equals Blown Saves which means that you are night "Lights Out."
Billy Wagner: Good, but not lights out. He's not making anyone's ballot if he were to retire right now.
Randy Myers: Career ERA of 3.91, all as a reliever... yuck
Wetteland: From '96 - '99 he had 40+ saves 3 of those years, but was out of baseball by 2001. That makes Johnny boy the poster child for my rant about the 1 inning closer.
Lee Smith was only "Lights out" for 3 or 4 years in a row. Again, that's what I'm bitching about.

OK, let's look at Wetteland. In the last 9 years of his career, save #'s of 37, 43, 25, 31, 43, 31, 42, 43, 34. Never an ERA above 2.94 until 1999. Pitching for Montreal (ugh), NY (ok), Texas (ugh, ugh). A man can only save what is presented to him, and Wetteland spent the bulk of his career pitching for teams that didn't exactly light up the scoreboard with victories. Still, outside of his 25 save season, those are 8 respectable save seasons....granted his ERA crept up in 1999 and 2000, thus he's out of a job. But to say he only had 3 good years is simply ignoring the reality of the situation he was in.

All that being said, he WAS only a 1 inning closer. But he was a pretty damned good one for a lot longer than 3 years.

[AZGrizFan]

For comparison purposes, here's Rob Nen:


1996 Fla NL 75 0 0 0 83.0 67 18 21 92 5 1 35 1.95
1997 Fla NL 73 0 0 0 74.0 72 32 40 81 9 3 35 3.89
1998 SF NL 78 0 0 0 88.2 59 15 25 110 7 7 40 1.52
1999 SF NL 72 0 0 0 72.1 79 32 27 77 3 8 37 3.98
2000 SF NL 68 0 0 0 66.0 37 11 19 92 4 3 41 1.50
2001 SF NL 79 0 0 0 77.2 58 26 22 93 4 5 45 3.01
2002 SF NL 68 0 0 0 73.2 64 18 20 81 6 2 43 2.20

7 really good years in a row (albeit 1997 & 1999 era's were high).

[UNHWildCats]

3 guys? Do the names Lee Smith, John Franco, Randy Myers, John Wetteland, Billy Wagner, Troy Percival, Rob Nen, Dan Quisenberry, Sparky Lyle, etc., ring a bell? And there are lots of other guys who might not have been lights out year after year, but who had several (a lot more than just three) years of productivity as closers.

Granted, Dennis Eckersley may have had the most amazing career in baseball as a pitcher, with 197 wins AND 390 saves, but that shouldn't minimize what some of these other guys have done.

Jeff Reardon....