AGS Poll Results - FINAL POLL - 2021 SPRING SEASON

[AGSPoll]

5/19/2021



Rank
Team:
Total Points
First Place Votes


1
Sam Houston State Bearkats
1025
41


2
South Dakota State Jackrabbits
984



3
James Madison Dukes
943



4
Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
860



5
North Dakota State Bison
859



6
North Dakota Fighting Hawks
806



7
Southern Illinois Salukis
785



8
Jacksonville State Gamecocks
708



9
Weber State Wildcats
700



10
Virginia Military Institute Keydets
628



11
Monmouth Hawks
613



12
Eastern Washington Eagles
603



13
Missouri State Bears
476



14
UC Davis Aggies
403



15
Villanova Wildcats
389



16
Southeastern Louisiana Lions
375



17
Richmond Spiders
335



18
Kennesaw State Owls
247



19
Sacred Heart Pioneers
238



20
Murray State Racers
211



21
Rhode Island Rams
208



22
Holy Cross Crusaders
172



23
Austin Peay Governors
156



24
East Tennessee State Buccaneers
150



25
Nicholls State Colonels
121
















ORV:




26
Samford Bulldogs
73



27
Davidson Wildcats
62



28
Alabama A&M Bulldogs
56



29
Northern Iowa Panthers
30



30t
Mercer Bears
27



30t
Northern Arizona Lumberjacks
27



32
Incarnate Word Cardinals
13



33t
Southern Jaguars
12



33t
Duquesne Dukes
12



35
Montana Grizzlies
9



36
Chattanooga Mocs
5



37
Arkansas Pine Bluff Golden Lions
4

[ursus arctos horribilis]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?271210-AGS-Poll-Results-WEEK-10-POLL-2021-SPRING-SEASON-SELECTION-SUNDAY&p=2962977&viewfull=1#post2962977

Selection Sunday poll thread for reference. I closed it so you guys don't carry on the discussion over there and keep the confusion with bumping both of these.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

One other note is that the top 3 were unanimous in their spots.

[Professor Chaos]

Looks pretty good to me... now the question is where do teams like Montana, Montana St, Central Arkansas, and Chattanooga fit in once we hit the fall? It's going to be a different mindset voting this fall that it usually is I think. Normally in the preseason it's tough because we never really know what teams are going to be hurt be attrition and what teams will just reload but this fall pretty much everyone who played in the spring gets all their main contributors back. Then going forward into the fall how much more weight to we attribute to the spring results than we would've to previous seasons in the past? In any case, I'm looking forward to a mostly normal fall season.

Here's my final poll ballot:

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits
3: James Madison Dukes
4: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
5: North Dakota State Bison
6: North Dakota Fighting Hawks
7: Southern Illinois Salukis
8: Jacksonville State Gamecocks
9: Monmouth Hawks
10: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
11: Weber State Wildcats
12: Eastern Washington Eagles
13: Rhode Island Rams
14: UC Davis Aggies
15: Southeastern Louisiana Lions
16: Missouri State Bears
17: Villanova Wildcats
18: Kennesaw State Owls
19: East Tennessee State Buccaneers
20: Murray State Racers
21: Sacred Heart Pioneers
22: Richmond Spiders
23: Austin Peay Governors
24: Alabama A&M Bulldogs
25: Samford Bulldogs

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Sadly, my poll perfection has come to an end. I forgot...xsmhx...busy season at work....

[acbearkat]

Looks pretty good to me... now the question is where do teams like Montana, Montana St, Central Arkansas, and Chattanooga fit in once we hit the fall? It's going to be a different mindset voting this fall that it usually is I think. Normally in the preseason it's tough because we never really know what teams are going to be hurt be attrition and what teams will just reload but this fall pretty much everyone who played in the spring gets all their main contributors back. Then going forward into the fall how much more weight to we attribute to the spring results than we would've to previous seasons in the past? In any case, I'm looking forward to a mostly normal fall season.

Here's my final poll ballot:

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits
3: James Madison Dukes
4: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
5: North Dakota State Bison
6: North Dakota Fighting Hawks
7: Southern Illinois Salukis
8: Jacksonville State Gamecocks
9: Monmouth Hawks
10: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
11: Weber State Wildcats
12: Eastern Washington Eagles
13: Rhode Island Rams
14: UC Davis Aggies
15: Southeastern Louisiana Lions
16: Missouri State Bears
17: Villanova Wildcats
18: Kennesaw State Owls
19: East Tennessee State Buccaneers
20: Murray State Racers
21: Sacred Heart Pioneers
22: Richmond Spiders
23: Austin Peay Governors
24: Alabama A&M Bulldogs
25: Samford Bulldogs

Don't forget Montana State has a new head coach, as Jeff Choate left to become the inside linebackers coach at the University of Texas.

[Daytripper]

Here you go:

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits
3: James Madison Dukes
4: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
5: North Dakota State Bison
6: Southern Illinois Salukis
7: North Dakota Fighting Hawks
8: Jacksonville State Gamecocks
9: Monmouth Hawks
10: Weber State Wildcats
11: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
12: Sacred Heart Pioneers
13: Eastern Washington Eagles
14: Southeastern Louisiana Lions
15: Missouri State Bears
16: UC Davis Aggies
17: Villanova Wildcats
18: Richmond Spiders
19: Rhode Island Rams
20: Kennesaw State Owls
21: Mercer Bears
22: Holy Cross Crusaders
23: Samford Bulldogs
24: Murray State Racers
25: East Tennessee State Buccaneers

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Sadly, my poll perfection has come to an end. I forgot...xsmhx...busy season at work....

I don't remember closing the poll and I have to run for a few hours right now to go check some jobs etc. so you never know....you might still have a chance it just won't count in the published portion.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't say this ever but the Montana team I saw this spring might be one of our best we've had but you know how these things look when you are a fan and hoping etc. but I am astonished at how very young and how very, very good this team looks. I don't remember when it has felt like this but I'd say early to mid 2000's.

[TheKingpin28]

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits
3: James Madison Dukes
4: North Dakota State Bison
5: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
6: North Dakota Fighting Hawks
7: Southern Illinois Salukis
8: Jacksonville State Gamecocks
9: Weber State Wildcats
10: Monmouth Hawks
11: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
12: Eastern Washington Eagles
13: Missouri State Bears
14: UC Davis Aggies
15: Villanova Wildcats
16: Richmond Spiders
17: Sacred Heart Pioneers
18: Southeastern Louisiana Lions
19: Kennesaw State Owls
20: Rhode Island Rams
21: Austin Peay Governors
22: East Tennessee State Buccaneers
23: Murray State Racers
24: Samford Bulldogs
25: Mercer Bears

[TheKingpin28]

Thought NDSU played better against SDSU then Delaware did so not sure how Delaware is ranked at 4th other than the fact they made the semis.

[Chalupa Batman]

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits
3: James Madison Dukes
4: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
5: Southern Illinois Salukis
6: North Dakota State Bison
7: North Dakota Fighting Hawks
8: Jacksonville State Gamecocks
9: Weber State Wildcats
10: Southeastern Louisiana Lions
11: Eastern Washington Eagles
12: Monmouth Hawks
13: Villanova Wildcats
14: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
15: UC Davis Aggies
16: Richmond Spiders
17: Rhode Island Rams
18: Nicholls State Colonels
19: Missouri State Bears
20: Austin Peay Governors
21: Northern Iowa Panthers
22: East Tennessee State Buccaneers
23: Kennesaw State Owls
24: Sacred Heart Pioneers
25: Holy Cross Crusaders

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Thought NDSU played better against SDSU then Delaware did so not sure how Delaware is ranked at 4th other than the fact they made the semis.

One thing NDSU guys tend to do though brother is think that a single game against that top team is more important than other things and when it comes to style sometimes you can look at it overall and have another thought. It would not be an easy argument to make with confidence but I would not say that NDSU is better than UD based on that game...and nearly everyone thought those two teams were a tossup judging by the points. xlolx

[Preferred Walk-On]

I am clearly in the minority here (obviously, given the overall poll results), but the AGS rankings appear about as slot-voted as I have ever seen them. Of course, playoffs tend to do that a bit, but this is blatantly obvious. They go:


Champion
Runner-Up
Semifinalist (lost to champion)
Semifinalist (lost to runner-up)
Quarterfinalist (lost to champion)
Quarterfinalist (lost to semifinalist that lost to champion)
Quarterfinalist (lost to runner-up)
Quarterfinalist (lost to semifinalist that lost to runner-up)
Then it gets a bit less slot-like


I guess I did not see it this way.

Sure, the champion and runner-up are fine at 1 and 2 (and stayed the same in both my pre-selection and post-championship polls), and I even gave the nod to the semifinalist that lost to the champion at 3.

But I cannot see:


why Delaware is still up at 4,
why Southern Illinois is still down at 7,
why Jacksonville State is at still up at 8, and
why Weber State is still down at 9, all based on their performances in said playoffs.


I also cannot see:


why Southeastern Louisiana is still down at 16, after their performances against Sam Houston State (remember, they won the national championship) to start the season and their performance against Southern Illinois to end their season,
why Kennesaw State still ranked up at 18, on what grounds, sir, on what grounds?


This vote just seemed to epitomize a bit what we tend to rail against here at AGS, and I guess I am confused. I am definitely interested in hearing reasoning on why this was not slot-voting overall. And just for complete transparency, my final rankings are posted below (with my pre-selection rankings denoted in parentheses).

One last note: Despite ragging on the overall final poll a bit above, I would just like to say thank you to everyone that participated in voting this spring. The fact that we ended with 41 participants and had around this same number all season is a real testament to the dedication of those voters. Also, a huge thank you to those running the poll during this weird, but quite entertaining season. Kudos!

-----

Hello Preferred Walk-On,

We have received your AGS Top 25 vote on 5/17/2021 10:06:40

Your vote is listed below.

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats (1)
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits (2)
3: James Madison Dukes (3)
4: Southern Illinois Salukis (13)
5: North Dakota State Bison (4)
6: Weber State Wildcats (6)
7: North Dakota Fighting Hawks (7)
8: Monmouth Hawks (11)
9: Southeastern Louisiana Lions (14)
10: Virginia Military Institute Keydets (21)
11: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens (5)
12: Eastern Washington Eagles (8)
13: Jacksonville State Gamecocks (10)
14: UC Davis Aggies (9)
15: Missouri State Bears (12)
16: Villanova Wildcats (15)
17: Austin Peay Governors (16)
18: Rhode Island Rams (17)
19: Murray State Racers (18)
20: Nicholls State Colonels (19)
21: Northern Iowa Panthers (20)
22: Richmond Spiders (22)
23: Sacred Heart Pioneers (NR)
24: Samford Bulldogs (23)
25: Holy Cross Crusaders (24)

Preferred Walk-On

The Most Significant Win: Sam Houston State Bearkats
The Most Significant Loss: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
Which Conference Does Your Team Play in?: Missouri Valley Football Conference

[KPSUL]

Thought NDSU played better against SDSU then Delaware did so not sure how Delaware is ranked at 4th other than the fact they made the semis.

Delaware beat the #4 seed. Delaware was undefeated in the regular season, NDSU had 2 losses and as mentioned Delaware went one round further. Comparing two teams based on results against one shared opponent (the transitive property) can be problematic, and even more so when you are comparing a playoff game to an annual rivalry matchup.

[Preferred Walk-On]

One thing NDSU guys tend to do though brother is think that a single game against that top team is more important than other things and when it comes to style sometimes you can look at it overall and have another thought. It would not be an easy argument to make with confidence but I would not say that NDSU is better than UD based on that game...and nearly everyone thought those two teams were a tossup judging by the points. xlolx

Disagree, respectfully of course. They both played that same top team, but North Dakota State also played "THE" top team this year. So now you have a few comparisons...how did Delaware stack up against SDSU, how did SDSU stack up against SHSU, how did NDSU stack up against SDSU, and how did NDSU stack up against SHSU? While the ultimate would have been to see Delaware play NDSU, that did not happen. However, based on multiple points of reference, I feel pretty confident that even with NDSU's QB situation, they still would have handled Delaware. As easily as SDSU did, maybe not, but I don't think it would have went down to the wire. Style difference is one thing, but scoreboard is another, and ultimately, this has to be based a bit on W/L, and when no direct comparison is available, other factors come into play, like getting run off the field vs., well, not.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Delaware beat the #4 seed. Delaware was undefeated in the regular season, NDSU had 2 losses and as mentioned Delaware went one round further. Comparing two teams based on results against one shared opponent (the transitive property) can be problematic, and even more so when you are comparing a playoff game to an annual rivalry matchup.

I can appreciate this reasoning, but you are then (1) assuming that Jacksonville State should have been the #4 seed (did they get this through transitive properties...see fall FBS win?) and (2) that a very close loss to the eventual national champion is simply a "moral victory" and should not count at all. Remember, before the national championship game, whether they admit it or not, NDSU was SHSU's "Super Bowl". But of course, almost everything is going to be transitive, unless teams play each other. Then I suppose it is not even acceptable to suggest that if teams played more than once, that outcomes might be different, right. It is my opinion that NDSU was significantly better than Delaware, based on multiple transitive properties, and I am missing the other evidence that they are not; however, I do stress, it is an opinion.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Delaware beat the #4 seed. Delaware was undefeated in the regular season, NDSU had 2 losses and as mentioned Delaware went one round further. Comparing two teams based on results against one shared opponent (the transitive property) can be problematic, and even more so when you are comparing a playoff game to an annual rivalry matchup.

Sorry, I also could not tell whether you thought the playoff game or the annual rivalry matchup was more difficult and to what degree.

[KPSUL]

It is a significant challenge in the FCS playoffs for a team to travel across the country to play a game. Doing it twice on back-to-back weekends seldom goes very well for the visiting team. Delaware played @ Jacksonville State and then @ SDSU.

[KPSUL]

Sorry, I also could not tell whether you thought the playoff game or the annual rivalry matchup was more difficult and to what degree.

You're joking, right?

[Preferred Walk-On]

It is a significant challenge in the FCS playoffs for a team to travel across the country to play a game. Doing it twice on back-to-back weekends seldom goes very well for the visiting team. Delaware played @ Jacksonville State and then @ SDSU.

Ah yes, the travel argument. Well, that is akin to moral victory then? Or is it akin to transitive property? I just want to know if travel holds more or less weight than the two mentioned, admittedly subjective, arguments for ranking order. I don't disagree it may have factored in, but that is not even on the field. Would NDSU have won if there would have been locker rooms (I mean, after all, SHSU was used to it)? Would SDSU have won if there had not been a 70 min lightning delay and 3 min halftime? All we can really evaluate is the product on the field, and if one is saying that does not hold more, or at least as much, weight as those factors off the field, then what are we really doing?

[paward]

Sadly, my poll perfection has come to an end. I forgot...xsmhx...busy season at work....
I know the feeling. Was on a conference call at 10 and it hit me. My first thought was this raise and working from home deserve my undying attention. Then I wondered off to poll perfection land. Got mine in on the buzzer.

[Preferred Walk-On]

You're joking, right?

I wish I were. Are you arguing that SDSU had some difficulty with NDSU, because it is a rivalry game and because of its intensity. Or are you arguing that since it was a playoff game, Delaware was clearly going to have more difficulty with SDSU than NDSU would have (or Delaware would have) if it were a regular season game. If the second is true, then shouldn't the same have been true for SDSU - they should have had a much more difficult time with Delaware. After all, it was the semifinal, and Delaware had beaten the #4 team in the playoffs. I think I know your answer, based on "You're joking, right?", but it is a legitimate question based on the reasoning above. You were not clear and did not indicate in which direction you were trying to frame your point of view, just that it can be "problematic"...problematic how (there is where your explanation was lacking)?

[FUBeAR]

I am clearly in the minority here (obviously, given the overall poll results), but the AGS rankings appear about as slot-voted as I have ever seen them. Of course, playoffs tend to do that a bit, but this is blatantly obvious. They go:


Champion
Runner-Up
Semifinalist (lost to champion)
Semifinalist (lost to runner-up)
Quarterfinalist (lost to champion)
Quarterfinalist (lost to semifinalist that lost to champion)
Quarterfinalist (lost to runner-up)
Quarterfinalist (lost to semifinalist that lost to runner-up)
Then it gets a bit less slot-like


I guess I did not see it this way.

Sure, the champion and runner-up are fine at 1 and 2 (and stayed the same in both my pre-selection and post-championship polls), and I even gave the nod to the semifinalist that lost to the champion at 3.

But I cannot see:


why Delaware is still up at 4,
why Southern Illinois is still down at 7,
why Jacksonville State is at still up at 8, and
why Weber State is still down at 9, all based on their performances in said playoffs.


I also cannot see:


why Southeastern Louisiana is still down at 16, after their performances against Sam Houston State (remember, they won the national championship) to start the season and their performance against Southern Illinois to end their season,
why Kennesaw State still ranked up at 18, on what grounds, sir, on what grounds?


This vote just seemed to epitomize a bit what we tend to rail against here at AGS, and I guess I am confused. I am definitely interested in hearing reasoning on why this was not slot-voting overall. And just for complete transparency, my final rankings are posted below (with my pre-selection rankings denoted in parentheses).

One last note: Despite ragging on the overall final poll a bit above, I would just like to say thank you to everyone that participated in voting this spring. The fact that we ended with 41 participants and had around this same number all season is a real testament to the dedication of those voters. Also, a huge thank you to those running the poll during this weird, but quite entertaining season. Kudos!

-----

Hello Preferred Walk-On,

We have received your AGS Top 25 vote on 5/17/2021 10:06:40

Your vote is listed below.

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats (1) - SAME
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits (2) - SAME
3: James Madison Dukes (3) - SAME
4: Southern Illinois Salukis (13) - SAME - FUBeAR ALSO PUT THE SALUKIS IN THE #4 SPOT
5: North Dakota State Bison (4) - SAME
6: Weber State Wildcats (6) - SIMILAR - FUBeAR PLACED THE WILDCATS @#7
7: North Dakota Fighting Hawks (7) - HAD ‘EM @ #8
8: Monmouth Hawks (11) - PLACED THE HAWKS @ #10
9: Southeastern Louisiana Lions (14) - HAVE THE LIONS @ #14, BUT I WAS THINKING THAT SEEMED LOW
10: Virginia Military Institute Keydets (21)
11: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens (5) - FUBeAR PUT THE HENS @ #9
12: Eastern Washington Eagles (8) - SAME
13: Jacksonville State Gamecocks (10) - FUBeAR HAD THE COCKS @ #11
14: UC Davis Aggies (9)
15: Missouri State Bears (12)
16: Villanova Wildcats (15)
17: Austin Peay Governors (16)
18: Rhode Island Rams (17)
19: Murray State Racers (18)
20: Nicholls State Colonels (19)
21: Northern Iowa Panthers (20)
22: Richmond Spiders (22)
23: Sacred Heart Pioneers (NR)
24: Samford Bulldogs (23)
25: Holy Cross Crusaders (24)

FUBeAR ALSO SAW NO GROUNDS TO PUT KENNESAW IN THE TOP 25

Preferred Walk-On

The Most Significant Win: Sam Houston State Bearkats
The Most Significant Loss: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
Which Conference Does Your Team Play in?: Missouri Valley Football Conference
Looks like PWO & FUBeAR were of like-mind in our evaluations - comments about your ‘call-outs’ in ALL CAPS above.

FUBeAR had VMI higher based upon the Keydets having a shot to win @ the end vs. JMU in H’Burg (and probably some SoCon bias). Also, like KSU, FUBeAR just didn’t see that Rhode Island did enough to merit ranking. Diverged some toward the last few, but as we all said all Spring…ranking below the 1st 10 (I’d say 15 by the end of the season) was pretty much a crapshoot.

[TheKingpin28]

One thing NDSU guys tend to do though brother is think that a single game against that top team is more important than other things and when it comes to style sometimes you can look at it overall and have another thought. It would not be an easy argument to make with confidence but I would not say that NDSU is better than UD based on that game...and nearly everyone thought those two teams were a tossup judging by the points. xlolxI completely get that but I look at it this way. NDSU played EWU, SHSU, and SDSU. All of those games were relatively close and when Delaware played SDSU it seemed like they did not show up as much as NDSU did. I would say when we compared who they played and how they fared, NDSU, for me at least, earned that #4 slot.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

[Puddin Tane]

I held my own, private, silent boycott of voting due to the fact y’all were putting Villanova in the top 25. SMH

[Chalupa Batman]

I am clearly in the minority here (obviously, given the overall poll results), but the AGS rankings appear about as slot-voted as I have ever seen them. Of course, playoffs tend to do that a bit, but this is blatantly obvious. They go:


Champion
Runner-Up
Semifinalist (lost to champion)
Semifinalist (lost to runner-up)
Quarterfinalist (lost to champion)
Quarterfinalist (lost to semifinalist that lost to champion)
Quarterfinalist (lost to runner-up)
Quarterfinalist (lost to semifinalist that lost to runner-up)
Then it gets a bit less slot-like


I guess I did not see it this way.

Sure, the champion and runner-up are fine at 1 and 2 (and stayed the same in both my pre-selection and post-championship polls), and I even gave the nod to the semifinalist that lost to the champion at 3.

But I cannot see:


why Delaware is still up at 4,
why Southern Illinois is still down at 7,
why Jacksonville State is at still up at 8, and
why Weber State is still down at 9, all based on their performances in said playoffs.


I also cannot see:


why Southeastern Louisiana is still down at 16, after their performances against Sam Houston State (remember, they won the national championship) to start the season and their performance against Southern Illinois to end their season,
why Kennesaw State still ranked up at 18, on what grounds, sir, on what grounds?


This vote just seemed to epitomize a bit what we tend to rail against here at AGS, and I guess I am confused. I am definitely interested in hearing reasoning on why this was not slot-voting overall. And just for complete transparency, my final rankings are posted below (with my pre-selection rankings denoted in parentheses).

One last note: Despite ragging on the overall final poll a bit above, I would just like to say thank you to everyone that participated in voting this spring. The fact that we ended with 41 participants and had around this same number all season is a real testament to the dedication of those voters. Also, a huge thank you to those running the poll during this weird, but quite entertaining season. Kudos!

-----

Hello Preferred Walk-On,

We have received your AGS Top 25 vote on 5/17/2021 10:06:40

Your vote is listed below.

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats (1)
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits (2)
3: James Madison Dukes (3)
4: Southern Illinois Salukis (13)
5: North Dakota State Bison (4)
6: Weber State Wildcats (6)
7: North Dakota Fighting Hawks (7)
8: Monmouth Hawks (11)
9: Southeastern Louisiana Lions (14)
10: Virginia Military Institute Keydets (21)
11: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens (5)
12: Eastern Washington Eagles (8)
13: Jacksonville State Gamecocks (10)
14: UC Davis Aggies (9)
15: Missouri State Bears (12)
16: Villanova Wildcats (15)
17: Austin Peay Governors (16)
18: Rhode Island Rams (17)
19: Murray State Racers (18)
20: Nicholls State Colonels (19)
21: Northern Iowa Panthers (20)
22: Richmond Spiders (22)
23: Sacred Heart Pioneers (NR)
24: Samford Bulldogs (23)
25: Holy Cross Crusaders (24)

Preferred Walk-On

The Most Significant Win: Sam Houston State Bearkats
The Most Significant Loss: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
Which Conference Does Your Team Play in?: Missouri Valley Football Conference

Delaware, NDSU, UND, and JSU all moved up only 1 spot from where they were ranked in the Selection Sunday poll. Those teams all bowed out of the playoffs exactly where you would have expected them to based on that poll and how the bracket was formed. It’s not like there was a ton of movement just to get these teams slotted into where they finished in the tournament.

The only real slot voting was Weber who fell from #4 to #9 after a 1st round L and was replaced in the top 8 by the team that beat them in SIU (who also gave SDSU one hell of a scare which is why I moved them up all the way to #5). EWU (#8) was the other team that fell out of the top 8 from the Selection Sunday poll, but the fact they were barely in the top 8 in the first place and the way they lost to NDSU you're obviously not going to leave them in the top 8.

[KPSUL]

I wish I were. Are you arguing that SDSU had some difficulty with NDSU, because it is a rivalry game and because of its intensity. Or are you arguing that since it was a playoff game, Delaware was clearly going to have more difficulty with SDSU than NDSU would have (or Delaware would have) if it were a regular season game. If the second is true, then shouldn't the same have been true for SDSU - they should have had a much more difficult time with Delaware. After all, it was the semifinal, and Delaware had beaten the #4 team in the playoffs. I think I know your answer, based on "You're joking, right?", but it is a legitimate question based on the reasoning above. You were not clear and did not indicate in which direction you were trying to frame your point of view, just that it can be "problematic"...problematic how (there is where your explanation was lacking)?

I'm pretty sure the argument made was obvious to anyone who had the objectivity to want to understand it, but OK, I'll play along. Playing a regular season game vs a team you play every season for regional bragging rights and some sort of trophy, in stadium a couple hundred miles away, generally does not present the planning and game preparations challenges that traveling 2000 miles to play a playoff game scheduled only six days in advance. in a place you've never been, against a team you may have never played before. Now exactly how big those challenge are, and the precise effect they will have on a specific game, is highly subjective and certainly hard to precisely determine. However it further diminishes the validity of using one common opponent in comparing two teams.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Delaware, NDSU, UND, and JSU all moved up only 1 spot from where they were ranked in the Selection Sunday poll. Those teams all bowed out of the playoffs exactly where you would have expected them to based on that poll and how the bracket was formed. It’s not like there was a ton of movement just to get these teams slotted into where they finished in the tournament.

The only real slot voting was Weber who fell from #4 to #9 after a 1st round L and was replaced in the top 8 by the team that beat them in SIU (who also gave SDSU one hell of a scare which is why I moved them up all the way to #5). EWU (#8) was the other team that fell out of the top 8 from the Selection Sunday poll, but the fact they were barely in the top 8 in the first place and the way they lost to NDSU you're obviously not going to leave them in the top 8.

With all due respect, “where they bow out is where they should be ranked” is not a great strategy IMO.

Picture this, if Delaware and Weber State are flipped in the bracket and/or Jacksonville State and North Dakota State are flipped, do Delaware and/or Jacksonville State make it out of the quarterfinals? Of course, this is purely hypothetical BS that could be cherry-picked to one’s liking all day.

So, we must consider other things like: Delaware lost to the same opponent by a worse score than Holy Cross, yet I don’t see anyone clamoring for the Crusaders to be ranked #4. Southern Illinois took this same opponent to the end of the game and arguably could/should have won, yet we rank them three spots (75 pt) below Delaware. Should we not be considering this or bracket placement when ranking teams? It is this placement, after all, that can dictate a team’s earlier or later exit from the tourney.


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[KPSUL]

With all due respect, “where they bow out is where they should be ranked” is not a great strategy IMO.

Picture this, if Delaware and Weber State are flipped in the bracket and/or Jacksonville State and North Dakota State are flipped, do Delaware and/or Jacksonville State make it out of the quarterfinals? Of course, this is purely hypothetical BS that could be cherry-picked to one’s liking all day.

So, we must consider other things like: Delaware lost to the same opponent by a worse score than Holy Cross, yet I don’t see anyone clamoring for the Crusaders to be ranked #4. Southern Illinois took this same opponent to the end of the game and arguably could/should have won, yet we rank them three spots (75 pt) below Delaware. Should we not be considering this or bracket placement when ranking teams? It is this placement, after all, that can dictate a team’s earlier or later exit from the tourney.


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Delaware won two playoff games, including a road win over a #4 seed, NDSU won one playoff game, zero on the road and defeated no seeded teams.

[Preferred Walk-On]

I'm pretty sure the argument made was obvious to anyone who had the objectivity to want to understand it, but OK, I'll play along. Playing a regular season game vs a team you play every season for regional bragging rights and some sort of trophy, in stadium a couple hundred miles away, generally does not present the planning and game preparations challenges that traveling 2000 miles to play a playoff game scheduled only six days in advance. in a place you've never been, against a team you may have never played before. Now exactly how big those challenge are, and the precise effect they will have on a specific game, is highly subjective and certainly hard to precisely determine. However it further diminishes the validity of using one common opponent in comparing two teams.

How big of you to play along. Thank you for deciding that it was worth your time to respond. Sarcasm aside, I can appreciate your point of view, so it must really suck to know a team never has a chance when they will have to travel for nearly every playoff game. What I cannot figure out is why THIS should be weighted so heavily and other comparisons trivialized or flat out ignored when ranking teams.

Sure, anyone can understand the travel and preparation logistics for a new or new-ish opponent. This is the objectivity you are referring to and inferring my not wanting to understand. The effect of this, however, is highly, highly subjective, which you rightly acknowledge. You also discount important facets of rivalries by ignoring the potential difficulties in defeating an opponent that knows everything about you and where separation often comes down to additional preparation (i.e., showing something new) and exceptional execution. So, prep time might be down a bit for a rivalry game, but even this is debatable. However, also consider that SDSU had to prep for Delaware (it is not the one-sided prep-fest you seem to be portraying).

I also don’t understand this 2,000 mile argument. Including distance traveled by air for your argument is arbitrary at best. It is roughly 4-6 hr by air, yet a bus trip 400 mi is this same duration. Travel distance is moot due to method of travel and should probably be left out of any “objective” discussion. It will only differ by a few hours at most in any direction. However, I will admit that SDSU did not have to travel 4-6 hr to get to the game.

As for the “travel and prep” point, Holy Cross traveled farther, had the same amount of prep time, scored the same amount of points as Delaware against SDSU, and lost by two fewer points. Sure, they had one less “arduous” flight than Delaware, but c’mon.


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[Preferred Walk-On]

Delaware won two playoff games, including a road win over a #4 seed, NDSU won one playoff game, zero on the road and defeated no seeded teams.

The only people that thought JSU was a #4 seed, and by extension, better than Delaware, were the members of the selection committee.

I also noticed you did not mention who NDSU lost to, on the road, with limited prep time and excessive travel obligations (this argument works for all teams that have to travel, right?) by 4 pt.


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[dewey]

I don't say this ever but the Montana team I saw this spring might be one of our best we've had but you know how these things look when you are a fan and hoping etc. but I am astonished at how very young and how very, very good this team looks. I don't remember when it has felt like this but I'd say early to mid 2000's.

That is great news. I think it is better for the FCS when Montana is good. Storied tradition and immediate name recognition.

Dewey

[OhioHen]

Thought NDSU played better against SDSU then Delaware did so not sure how Delaware is ranked at 4th other than the fact they made the semis.


I am clearly in the minority here (obviously, given the overall poll results), but the AGS rankings appear about as slot-voted as I have ever seen them.

...

But I cannot see:


why Delaware is still up at 4,
why Southern Illinois is still down at 7,


100% with you both on this. And don't forget that SIU led SDSU late in quarterfinals as well as beating NDSU earlier in the season. I try to avoid the recency bias of the playoffs by adjusting my poll each week during the playoffs.

I've never previously posted my poll, but here it is.

1: Sam Houston State Bearkats
2: South Dakota State Jackrabbits
3: James Madison Dukes
4: Southern Illinois Salukis
5: North Dakota State Bison
6: North Dakota Fighting Hawks
7: Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens
8: Weber State Wildcats
9: Eastern Washington Eagles
10: Jacksonville State Gamecocks
11: Monmouth Hawks
12: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
13: Missouri State Bears
14: UC Davis Aggies
15: Villanova Wildcats
16: Kennesaw State Owls
17: Austin Peay Governors
18: Sacred Heart Pioneers
19: Holy Cross Crusaders
20: Richmond Spiders
21: Samford Bulldogs
22: Murray State Racers
23: Southeastern Louisiana Lions
24: East Tennessee State Buccaneers
25: Rhode Island Rams

[Chalupa Batman]

With all due respect, “where they bow out is where they should be ranked” is not a great strategy IMO.

Picture this, if Delaware and Weber State are flipped in the bracket and/or Jacksonville State and North Dakota State are flipped, do Delaware and/or Jacksonville State make it out of the quarterfinals? Of course, this is purely hypothetical BS that could be cherry-picked to one’s liking all day.

So, we must consider other things like: Delaware lost to the same opponent by a worse score than Holy Cross, yet I don’t see anyone clamoring for the Crusaders to be ranked #4. Southern Illinois took this same opponent to the end of the game and arguably could/should have won, yet we rank them three spots (75 pt) below Delaware. Should we not be considering this or bracket placement when ranking teams? It is this placement, after all, that can dictate a team’s earlier or later exit from the tourney.


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I didn’t say “where they bow out is where they should be ranked.” I said “the pre-playoff AGS poll was pretty accurate to what happened in the playoffs” and thus, the final poll reflected that. There wasn’t a ton of movement just to have these teams slotted “conveniently” in the 4-8 spots. Delaware, NDSU, UND, & JSU all moved up exactly one spot in the poll. None of them leap frogged the other. Could/should’ve they? Perhaps (I did have SIU all the way up to #5).

I did give a lot of thought between UD & SIU for #4/5. Ultimately I decided to give the Hens the benefit of the doubt that the SDSU game wasn’t a true indication of how good/bad they were (SIU also got blown out by the Jacks, losing by 41 at home but then later they should’ve beat them on the road). SIU is the only team I considered to jump over UD, none of the other teams were impressive enough in the playoffs IMO to leap frog the Hens.

Of course the bracket can fall a lot of different ways, and one can play the what-if game all day long. What if SH & JMU had been flipped, does SH still make the final? What if SH/JMU/SDSU were #1/2/3, do we still end up with the same final matchup? With the same champion? If one thinks the answer to any of those questions is no then they should vote for someone other than SH #1, right?



The only people that thought JSU was a #4 seed, and by extension, better than Delaware, were the members of the selection committee.

I also noticed you did not mention who NDSU lost to, on the road, with limited prep time and excessive travel obligations (this argument works for all teams that have to travel, right?) by 4 pt.


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The NDSU result against SH is a mirage. We got completely controlled for at least 50 minutes of that game. If not for two special teams plays (most likely caused by Keeler taking some starters off special teams in that game to give them more rest) the final score would reflect just how much better they were then us that day. That’s why I said above we weren’t impressive enough in the playoffs to jump UD in the final poll.

[Cocky]

The only people that thought JSU was a #4 seed, and by extension, better than Delaware, were the members of the selection committee.

I also noticed you did not mention who NDSU lost to, on the road, with limited prep time and excessive travel obligations (this argument works for all teams that have to travel, right?) by 4 pt.


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First I could careless where JSU is ranked if its not 1 and we damn sure arent 1.

When the ranking were done our QB was healthy and he went down pretty early in the game against Delaware. Would he have made enough difference to win, who knows but our offense definitely didnt preform without him.

As we all know comparing scores doesnt work real well. Match ups make a huge difference to outcomes. Personally I trust the eyeball test more than the score comparison test.

[TheKingpin28]

100% with you both on this. And don't forget that SIU led SDSU late in quarterfinals as well as beating NDSU earlier in the season. I try to avoid the recency bias of the playoffs by adjusting my poll each week during the playoffs.




I can agree that the bottom half of the poll might be unfazed due to not participating in the playoffs, but that top half, was it easier; sure, but I felt there were a couple of teams who "outperformed" their final placement in the playoffs and that is why I agree with you that certain teams should be higher than their final placement.

[caribbeanhen]

Ah yes, the travel argument. Well, that is akin to moral victory then? Or is it akin to transitive property? I just want to know if travel holds more or less weight than the two mentioned, admittedly subjective, arguments for ranking order. I don't disagree it may have factored in, but that is not even on the field. Would NDSU have won if there would have been locker rooms (I mean, after all, SHSU was used to it)? Would SDSU have won if there had not been a 70 min lightning delay and 3 min halftime? All we can really evaluate is the product on the field, and if one is saying that does not hold more, or at least as much, weight as those factors off the field, then what are we really doing?

Full ride

Where did you have Sam Houston State ranked after they’re hard fought win over Southeastern Louisiana?

Full disclosure.... Caribbean had Sam Houston State ranked number one after that game

If I’m not mistaken, AGS had them at number 11. Not sure

And unfortunately number one is all that matters, everything else is just hot air

[caribbeanhen]

First I could careless where JSU is ranked if its not 1 and we damn sure arent 1.

When the ranking were done our QB was healthy and he went down pretty early in the game against Delaware. Would he have made enough difference to win, who knows but our offense definitely didnt preform without him.

As we all know comparing scores doesnt work real well. Match ups make a huge difference to outcomes. Personally I trust the eyeball test more than the score comparison test.

The eyeball test is the best test! requires watching games .....a lot of games

Don’t tell Professor Chaos but I never looked at one of his stats sheets this year xcoffeex

[Professor Chaos]

The eyeball test is the best test! requires watching games .....a lot of games

Don’t tell Professor Chaos but I never looked at one of his stats sheets this year xcoffeex
Blasphemy!!!!

[acbearkat]

I don't say this ever but the Montana team I saw this spring might be one of our best we've had but you know how these things look when you are a fan and hoping etc. but I am astonished at how very young and how very, very good this team looks. I don't remember when it has felt like this but I'd say early to mid 2000's.

It will be interesting to see how Montana looks in the fall. If I'm able to watch some of their games via ESPN+, I will try to check them out. I'll be interested to see how good Montana State is in the fall as well, with losing head coach Jeff Choate to Texas (he's the inside linebackers coach and has a connection with Pete Kwiatkowski, the new UT defensive coordinator, and he also ended up getting a serious bump in pay).

[Preferred Walk-On]

I didn’t say “where they bow out is where they should be ranked.” I said “the pre-playoff AGS poll was pretty accurate to what happened in the playoffs” and thus, the final poll reflected that. There wasn’t a ton of movement just to have these teams slotted “conveniently” in the 4-8 spots. Delaware, NDSU, UND, & JSU all moved up exactly one spot in the poll. None of them leap frogged the other. Could/should’ve they? Perhaps (I did have SIU all the way up to #5).

I did give a lot of thought between UD & SIU for #4/5. Ultimately I decided to give the Hens the benefit of the doubt that the SDSU game wasn’t a true indication of how good/bad they were (SIU also got blown out by the Jacks, losing by 41 at home but then later they should’ve beat them on the road). SIU is the only team I considered to jump over UD, none of the other teams were impressive enough in the playoffs IMO to leap frog the Hens.

Of course the bracket can fall a lot of different ways, and one can play the what-if game all day long. What if SH & JMU had been flipped, does SH still make the final? What if SH/JMU/SDSU were #1/2/3, do we still end up with the same final matchup? With the same champion? If one thinks the answer to any of those questions is no then they should vote for someone other than SH #1, right?

You are correct, you said exactly what you stated above. My apologies, as I put the quotes around to emphasize, not to attribute to you. Sorry for the confusion. Still, the final poll reflecting slotting of where teams went out is IMO not what a poll should be trying to do. That said, opinions are like a$$holes,...

Also, I put the "what if" in, because I wanted to point out that that really is a ridiculous game. I think I even said this "purely hypothetical BS"; however, if one started to think about other matchups, then one could easily envision a team that made the semis, well, not making the semis. I guess they would have been slotted lower in the poll then.


The NDSU result against SH is a mirage. We got completely controlled for at least 50 minutes of that game. If not for two special teams plays (most likely caused by Keeler taking some starters off special teams in that game to give them more rest) the final score would reflect just how much better they were then us that day. That’s why I said above we weren’t impressive enough in the playoffs to jump UD in the final poll.

It is hard to disagree with your assessment of NDSU and that game (and I won't); however, what does this say about Sam Houston State then (that NDSU was that close to winning the game in spite of Sammy controlling it)? Apparently, NDSU playing that poorly could have been an anomaly similar to that which you describe for Delaware @ SDSU? Please don't bring up NDSU @ SIU...this game occurred very early in the season, AND you ranked SIU @ #5 to end the season (I had SIU @ #4).

You alluded to it in when you said "What if SH/JMU/SDSU were #1/2/3, do we still end up with the same final matchup?" One will never know; however, one could still rank teams based on things besides simply the order in which they fell out of the playoffs. I suppose one could also make an argument that SHSU is not the #1 team, based on how they managed to slip past all four teams they played (at least according to the scoreboard). I am NOT making that argument. One could (and has) made the argument that winning these close games is precisely what makes them a champion (besides winning the last game), and I am with the consensus that they had a heck of a path to a championship and persevered (and I think my poll reflects that). However, ranking SHSU's opponents lower suggests that one really does not believe SHSU had such an amazing path to the championship, or else the voter(s) would have shown those opponents some more respect by ranking them a bit higher. You said you had SIU up at #5, but did not put them above Delaware for the reasons you stated, and I can respect that. It doesn't mean I have to agree with that. Heck, maybe that WAS the real Delaware, and people just refuse to believe it, simply because it was the semis.

Chalupa, I appreciate the comments, and I certainly respect most of your takes on this forum. I appreciate the discussion, I simply have to disagree in this instance.

[Preferred Walk-On]

First I could careless where JSU is ranked if its not 1 and we damn sure arent 1.

When the ranking were done our QB was healthy and he went down pretty early in the game against Delaware. Would he have made enough difference to win, who knows but our offense definitely didnt preform without him.

As we all know comparing scores doesnt work real well. Match ups make a huge difference to outcomes. Personally I trust the eyeball test more than the score comparison test.

Yes, that was very unfortunate and doubly-unfortunate it happened in May. Best wishes on his recovery.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Full ride

Where did you have Sam Houston State ranked after they’re hard fought win over Southeastern Louisiana?

Full disclosure.... Caribbean had Sam Houston State ranked number one after that game

If I’m not mistaken, AGS had them at number 11. Not sure

And unfortunately number one is all that matters, everything else is just hot air

Paul, I had them at #5 after the game you mentioned (AGS had them at #10). Had them at #1 from Week 6 until the end of the season, but so did most people.

While I can get on board with the "If you ain't first, you're last" mentality here, I just think this particular poll maybe did a few teams a disservice in recognizing how their season finished. For example, I am completely on record with saying SIU had no business making the playoffs and even called out their coach for skewing the argument and lobbying for acceptance. However, I appear to have been quite wrong, because they had a really good showing...such a good showing that it compelled me to move them up to #4 in my poll when considering the other teams, despite them being eliminated in the quarterfinals.

To be candid, much of what is on this board is hot air, but it is fun to have reasonable discussion about it.

[KPSUL]

How big of you to play along. Thank you for deciding that it was worth your time to respond. Sarcasm aside, I can appreciate your point of view, so it must really suck to know a team never has a chance when they will have to travel for nearly every playoff game. What I cannot figure out is why THIS should be weighted so heavily and other comparisons trivialized or flat out ignored when ranking teams.

Sure, anyone can understand the travel and preparation logistics for a new or new-ish opponent. This is the objectivity you are referring to and inferring my not wanting to understand. The effect of this, however, is highly, highly subjective, which you rightly acknowledge. You also discount important facets of rivalries by ignoring the potential difficulties in defeating an opponent that knows everything about you and where separation often comes down to additional preparation (i.e., showing something new) and exceptional execution. So, prep time might be down a bit for a rivalry game, but even this is debatable. However, also consider that SDSU had to prep for Delaware (it is not the one-sided prep-fest you seem to be portraying).

I also don’t understand this 2,000 mile argument. Including distance traveled by air for your argument is arbitrary at best. It is roughly 4-6 hr by air, yet a bus trip 400 mi is this same duration. Travel distance is moot due to method of travel and should probably be left out of any “objective” discussion. It will only differ by a few hours at most in any direction. However, I will admit that SDSU did not have to travel 4-6 hr to get to the game.

As for the “travel and prep” point, Holy Cross traveled farther, had the same amount of prep time, scored the same amount of points as Delaware against SDSU, and lost by two fewer points. Sure, they had one less “arduous” flight than Delaware, but c’mon.


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This really boils down to the essential difference of opinion we have, I ranked Delaware 4th and NDSU 6th, I believe you had NDSU 4th and Delaware 8th? I have no firm idea how good Holy Cross is, or isn't, relative to Delaware; but since they both played SDSU recently, I do know that neither team is currently as good as SDSU and neither is NDSU. The critical deciding factor in the final ranking of playoff teams for me was how well they performed in the playoffs. Delaware clearly out performed NDSU and Holy Cross by upsetting a seeded team and winning two games so I've got them ranked higher. As you mention elsewhere in this thread, sometimes we just need to agree to disagree and move on. If it helps, I agree with you that SIU should be ranked higher than the AGS result - I had them at #5.

[Preferred Walk-On]

The eyeball test is the best test! requires watching games .....a lot of games

Don’t tell Professor Chaos but I never looked at one of his stats sheets this year xcoffeex


Blasphemy!!!!

The transitive properties of stats is a fool's game anyway, from what I understand. However, I am a fool. ;)

[Preferred Walk-On]

This really boils down to the essential difference of opinion we have, I ranked Delaware 4th and NDSU 6th, I believe you had NDSU 4th and Delaware 8th? I have no firm idea how good Holy Cross is, or isn't, relative to Delaware; but since they both played SDSU recently, I do know that neither team is currently as good as SDSU and neither is NDSU. The critical deciding factor in the final ranking of playoff teams for me was how well they performed in the playoffs. Delaware clearly out performed NDSU and Holy Cross by upsetting a seeded team and winning two games so I've got them ranked higher. As you mention elsewhere in this thread, sometimes we just need to agree to disagree and move on. If it helps, I agree with you that SIU should be ranked higher than the AGS result - I had them at #5.

My apologies for being a bit snarky. I appreciate your opinion, and I will add that it is likely that some MVFC and CAA biases have entered into play a bit here as well for how you and I see it. I am not sure Delaware clearly outperformed NDSU in the playoffs, but they did advance one round further (objective). That does not mean there were not underlying circumstances for this one round further advancement (subjective). I know 2-4 spots is a bigger deal to some than others, and even if it seems like it, my intention was not to tout NDSU's or belittle Delaware's accomplishments. My intention was to point out that based on the voting, the teams were placed based on when they exited the playoffs, and I think this did a disservice to a few teams that participated in said playoffs.

I think the one thing we can agree on is that there are indeed other factors that contribute to how voters rank teams, and that my list is just somewhat different from yours and items have different weights towards rankings. No worries, and I appreciate the banter.

[KPSUL]

My apologies for being a bit snarky. I appreciate your opinion, and I will add that it is likely that some MVFC and CAA biases have entered into play a bit here as well for how you and I see it. I am not sure Delaware clearly outperformed NDSU in the playoffs, but they did advance one round further (objective). That does not mean there were not underlying circumstances for this one round further advancement (subjective). I know 2-4 spots is a bigger deal to some than others, and even if it seems like it, my intention was not to tout NDSU's or belittle Delaware's accomplishments. My intention was to point out that based on the voting, the teams were placed based on when they exited the playoffs, and I think this did a disservice to a few teams that participated in said playoffs.


I think the one thing we can agree on is that there are indeed other factors that contribute to how voters rank teams, and that my list is just somewhat different from yours and items have different weights towards rankings. No worries, and I appreciate the banter.

Due to the short season, and almost no OOC regular season games it may have been the toughest year ever to compare conferences. Like most voters on AGS, I tended to favor MVFC teams - the conference got started earlier and they played a more comprehensive conference schedule - some of the early games were great match-ups and more team were in the mix to include MSU and
SIU. I'm still not sure if Richmond and Villanova were legitimate ranked teams - they may be, and I had'em there, but the results aren't there to confirm it. I thought how surprising close some of the 1st round playoff games were was very interesting and may speak to greater parity this fall: Sacred Heart @ Delaware, Monmouth @ SHSU and VMI @ JMU.

[Daytripper]

Due to the short season, and almost no OOC regular season games it may have been the toughest year ever to compare conferences. Like most voters on AGS, I tended to favor MVFC teams - the conference got started earlier and they played a more comprehensive conference schedule - some of the early games were great match-ups and more team were in the mix to include MSU and
SIU. I'm still not sure if Richmond and Villanova were legitimate ranked teams - they may be, and I had'em there, but the results aren't there to confirm it. I thought how surprising close some of the 1st round playoff games were was very interesting and may speak to greater parity this fall: Sacred Heart @ Delaware, Monmouth @ SHSU and VMI @ JMU.

That Monmouth team was underrated. They were big and physical. Their freshman QB is the real deal.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Due to the short season, and almost no OOC regular season games it may have been the toughest year ever to compare conferences. Like most voters on AGS, I tended to favor MVFC teams - the conference got started earlier and they played a more comprehensive conference schedule - some of the early games were great match-ups and more team were in the mix to include MSU and
SIU. I'm still not sure if Richmond and Villanova were legitimate ranked teams - they may be, and I had'em there, but the results aren't there to confirm it. I thought how surprising close some of the 1st round playoff games were was very interesting and may speak to greater parity this fall: Sacred Heart @ Delaware, Monmouth @ SHSU and VMI @ JMU.

I think this fall could be an exceptionally competitive year in the FCS, and I feel bad that a few teams will be at a distinct disadvantage because they (1) made the playoffs and (2) lost a key player(s) during the playoffs.

However, I am also a bit unclear as to what the landscape will look like, as theoretically, all teams can basically return their rosters they had this spring. I can hear caribbeanhen already declaring that Sam Houston State will be the fall champion, and that he was the only one that knew it since their game against Southeastern Louisiana...back in February. ;)

[Preferred Walk-On]

Looks like PWO & FUBeAR were of like-mind in our evaluations - comments about your ‘call-outs’ in ALL CAPS above.

FUBeAR had VMI higher based upon the Keydets having a shot to win @ the end vs. JMU in H’Burg (and probably some SoCon bias). Also, like KSU, FUBeAR just didn’t see that Rhode Island did enough to merit ranking. Diverged some toward the last few, but as we all said all Spring…ranking below the 1st 10 (I’d say 15 by the end of the season) was pretty much a crapshoot.



100% with you both on this. And don't forget that SIU led SDSU late in quarterfinals as well as beating NDSU earlier in the season. I try to avoid the recency bias of the playoffs by adjusting my poll each week during the playoffs.

Great minds...?

Also, FUBeAR and OhioHen, appreciate the comments. FUBeAR, you did not list this explicitly, but (through my crude process of elimination) did you have VMI at #6 then?

OhioHen, I adjusted my poll after each round of the playoffs as well, but mostly so I would not have to spend as much time completing my final poll. My first year as a voter, I did not heed this advice, and I just found it much more time consuming and found myself doubting my rankings after they were submitted. It is just easier to keep it up-to-date, at least for me.

[caribbeanhen]

I think this fall could be an exceptionally competitive year in the FCS, and I feel bad that a few teams will be at a distinct disadvantage because they (1) made the playoffs and (2) lost a key player(s) during the playoffs.

However, I am also a bit unclear as to what the landscape will look like, as theoretically, all teams can basically return their rosters they had this spring. I can hear caribbeanhen already declaring that Sam Houston State will be the fall champion, and that he was the only one that knew it since their game against Southeastern Louisiana...back in February. ;)

One thing I have learned (amongst many) on this site is you have to repeat things ad nauseam to get any traction... I'm pretty sure I have already claimed that Sammy will repeat in the fall with the caveat being does The Ezzard of Oz return... Is he even eligible to return? I think the roster lists him as a graduate student

Perferred Walk on - the kind of discussion you are bringing to this thread is outstanding and your spreadsheets are the best..... I generally agree with the point you are making here about slot voting, I was even thinking about it while I was filling in my ballot because I kind of felt like I was guilty myself but in the end said **** it.... this argument could go either way

[caribbeanhen]

Blasphemy!!!!

Professor, I like stats .... but I could gain 100 yards on a few carries against the Lighthouse of the Blind.... now you put me in at RB against some Starbucks latte sipping soccer Moms and my YPC would drop dramatically...

maybe the stats sheet needs to be weighted mathematically based on some type of computer ranking on how good the team is

I bet you will tell me they are already doing this

[Professor Chaos]

Professor, I like stats .... but I could gain 100 yards on a few carries against the Lighthouse of the Blind.... now you put me in at RB against some Starbucks latte sipping soccer Moms and my YPC would drop dramatically...

maybe the stats sheet needs to be weighted mathematically based on some type of computer ranking on how good the team is

I bet you will tell me they are already doing this
Well in reality I think anyone who uses stats knows that they can be deceptive. For instance going into the playoff Sam Houston was allowing something like 58 rush yards per game and 1.6 yards per carry. In the playoffs they allowed 163 rush yards per game at 3.8 yards per carry. I think you had to be more impressed with their run defense by the end of their playoff run despite the stats flipping in the wrong direction because of the level of competition they faced.

I don't think you and I will ever agree on the value of the eye test. I don't trust my eyes except for teams I watch week in and week out. If you watched NDSU when they played SIU they didn't look like a top 25 team. If you watched them vs UND or EWU they looked like one of the national title favorites.

[ElCid]

Professor, I like stats .... but I could gain 100 yards on a few carries against the Lighthouse of the Blind.... now you put me in at RB against some Starbucks latte sipping soccer Moms and my YPC would drop dramatically...

maybe the stats sheet needs to be weighted mathematically based on some type of computer ranking on how good the team is

I bet you will tell me they are already doing this

Yup. Stats in isolation are not always an accurate depiction of a teams worth. Sometimes they are, but they need to be weighed by a lot of factors.

[Chalupa Batman]

You are correct, you said exactly what you stated above. My apologies, as I put the quotes around to emphasize, not to attribute to you. Sorry for the confusion. Still, the final poll reflecting slotting of where teams went out is IMO not what a poll should be trying to do. That said, opinions are like a$$holes,...

Also, I put the "what if" in, because I wanted to point out that that really is a ridiculous game. I think I even said this "purely hypothetical BS"; however, if one started to think about other matchups, then one could easily envision a team that made the semis, well, not making the semis. I guess they would have been slotted lower in the poll then.



It is hard to disagree with your assessment of NDSU and that game (and I won't); however, what does this say about Sam Houston State then (that NDSU was that close to winning the game in spite of Sammy controlling it)? Apparently, NDSU playing that poorly could have been an anomaly similar to that which you describe for Delaware @ SDSU? Please don't bring up NDSU @ SIU...this game occurred very early in the season, AND you ranked SIU @ #5 to end the season (I had SIU @ #4).

You alluded to it in when you said "What if SH/JMU/SDSU were #1/2/3, do we still end up with the same final matchup?" One will never know; however, one could still rank teams based on things besides simply the order in which they fell out of the playoffs. I suppose one could also make an argument that SHSU is not the #1 team, based on how they managed to slip past all four teams they played (at least according to the scoreboard). I am NOT making that argument. One could (and has) made the argument that winning these close games is precisely what makes them a champion (besides winning the last game), and I am with the consensus that they had a heck of a path to a championship and persevered (and I think my poll reflects that). However, ranking SHSU's opponents lower suggests that one really does not believe SHSU had such an amazing path to the championship, or else the voter(s) would have shown those opponents some more respect by ranking them a bit higher. You said you had SIU up at #5, but did not put them above Delaware for the reasons you stated, and I can respect that. It doesn't mean I have to agree with that. Heck, maybe that WAS the real Delaware, and people just refuse to believe it, simply because it was the semis.

Chalupa, I appreciate the comments, and I certainly respect most of your takes on this forum. I appreciate the discussion, I simply have to disagree in this instance.

I appreciate the rigorous discussion as well, it’s why I’m proud to now be a voter. The poll is so subjective and many times there are countless ways to look at things. The best thing we can do (or should be doing) is get others to look at things from a point of view they didn’t see or think of. Even if we ultimately still disagree that’s fine.

You looked at the final poll, saw it as slot voting based on how the playoffs went and thought “Blasphemy! That’s everything the AGS poll is against.” I looked at the final poll and saw that it was pretty close to the Selection Sunday poll (and the performances of teams didn’t warrant much movement) and thought, “Wow, the AGS poll really nailed how the playoffs were going to turn out. This is just more evidence that we at AGS have it right way more often than the other polls do.” Most likely of course, like most discussions here, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I appreciate the rigorous discussion as well, it’s why I’m proud to now be a voter. The poll is so subjective and many times there are countless ways to look at things. The best thing we can do (or should be doing) is get others to look at things from a point of view they didn’t see or think of. Even if we ultimately still disagree that’s fine.

You looked at the final poll, saw it as slot voting based on how the playoffs went and thought “Blasphemy! That’s everything the AGS poll is against.” I looked at the final poll and saw that it was pretty close to the Selection Sunday poll (and the performances of teams didn’t warrant much movement) and thought, “Wow, the AGS poll really nailed how the playoffs were going to turn out. This is just more evidence that we at AGS have it right way more often than the other polls do.” Most likely of course, like most discussions here, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The last few lines is exactly why I don't get the slot voting claim for even a second. It makes zero sense that people that pretty much collectively called it fairly close a month ago are suddenly going to change their minds and do what? Stick pretty much to what they thought in the first place?

I'm only skimming due to lack of time and I see what appears to be a great discussion so when I can catch up maybe I will understand the nuance of what is being said to fill in my handy skimming.:)

Just for other skimmers...it seems pretty hard to not slot when you are already on the spot.

[Daytripper]

The last few lines is exactly why I don't get the slot voting claim for even a second. It makes zero sense that people that pretty much collectively called it fairly close a month ago are suddenly going to change their minds and do what? Stick pretty much to what they thought in the first place?

I'm only skimming due to lack of time and I see what appears to be a great discussion so when I can catch up maybe I will understand the nuance of what is being said to fill in my handy skimming.:)

Just for other skimmers...it seems pretty hard to not slot when you are already on the spot.

You are a poet!..

[acbearkat]

Due to the short season, and almost no OOC regular season games it may have been the toughest year ever to compare conferences. Like most voters on AGS, I tended to favor MVFC teams - the conference got started earlier and they played a more comprehensive conference schedule - some of the early games were great match-ups and more team were in the mix to include MSU and
SIU. I'm still not sure if Richmond and Villanova were legitimate ranked teams - they may be, and I had'em there, but the results aren't there to confirm it. I thought how surprising close some of the 1st round playoff games were was very interesting and may speak to greater parity this fall: Sacred Heart @ Delaware, Monmouth @ SHSU and VMI @ JMU.

That's an excellent point. At least we'll get a full fall season to determine how good the teams actually are.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You are a poet!..

I figured I'd give it a shot on that one.

[POD Knows]

I have locked out of this site since 2 days before the Natty. Didn’t get a final poll in. Just got access to this site yesterday. No idea what happened.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I have locked out of this site since 2 days before the Natty. Didn’t get a final poll in. Just got access to this site yesterday. No idea what happened.

I'll send you a pm shortly.

[POD Knows]

I'll send you a pm shortly.Got it, Thanks

[Katfan]

I have locked out of this site since 2 days before the Natty. Didn’t get a final poll in. Just got access to this site yesterday. No idea what happened.
SDSU fans had you banned for the book it!

[POD Knows]

SDSU fans had you banned for the book it!Hey, congrats on the Natty, it was a great game. I am still waiting on my new Avatar that I get to sport from the SDSU poster on here.

[caribbeanhen]

Hey, congrats on the Natty, it was a great game. I am still waiting on my new Avatar that I get to sport from the SDSU poster on here.

I think mine would do you fine....

[POD Knows]

I think mine would do you fine....OMFG, what would be worse, a Paul or Beatles avatar or something with an SDSU theme, honestly, there is no lessor of two evils there, it is a tie for the bottom.

[OhioHen]

OMFG, what would be worse, a Paul or Beatles avatar or something with an SDSU theme, honestly, there is no lessor of two evils there, it is a tie for the bottom.

University of North Dakota?

[POD Knows]

University of North Dakota?Oh hell yea, that would be bad, I would have to fill up my sig line with a bunch of UND insults to balance out the deal and I have a ton of those.

[mmiller_34]

Hey, congrats on the Natty, it was a great game. I am still waiting on my new Avatar that I get to sport from the SDSU poster on here.

The SHSU helmet suits you well.

[POD Knows]

The SHSU helmet suits you well.
I am just glad it wasn't Paul McCartney.

[caribbeanhen]

I am just glad it wasn't Paul McCartney.

weak

[Daytripper]

I am just glad it wasn't Paul McCartney.

How long do you have to keep the Sammy helmet?

[POD Knows]

How long do you have to keep the Sammy helmet?End of the year I think

[Daytripper]

End of the year I think

I, for one, think it is a wonderful homage to our old logo. Just know that I will get great joy out of this...xdrunkyx

[POD Knows]

I, for one, think it is a wonderful homage to our old logo. Just know that I will get great joy out of this...xdrunkyxWell, I will display it with pride, I am just glad you beat SDSU. And now you need to learn how to be beat UND and I might become a closet SHSU fan.

[Daytripper]

Well, I will display it with pride, I am just glad you beat SDSU. And now you need to learn how to be beat UND and I might become a closet SHSU fan.

Yeah. We should of beaten them the last two times. That first one in Huntsville we had terrible QB play and the one in ND we had very offensive Offensive Coordinator play.