Ideal FCS conference for your school?

[JMU Duke Dog]

Please list a conference for your school at the FCS level that you have always dreamed about having! I am just curious to see how other FCS fans view other schools. For example, wanting another school to be in your conference usually a compliment. The exception being if it is for a guaranteed victory every year! xlolx

[JMU Duke Dog]

I will start mine for JMU with the "new" Colonial Athletic Association.

North Division
Delaware
George Mason (non-football member)
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple
Towson
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion
Virginia Commonwealth (non-football member)

Reasons:
* Keeps JMU's alumni base happy with a strong presence in the northeast but expands southwards.
* 12 members for football and 14 members for other sports is not too ridiculous in my opinion.
* Have the Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Hampton Roads, and Atlanta media markets.
* Conference could have the potential of going to the FBS level if decided at a later date.
* Temple should be playing in the FCS rather than the MAC in the FBS.
* Richmond, Villanova, and William & Mary could join the Patriot League schools with Elon, Furman, and Wofford possibly?

[danefan]

America East Football
Albany
Stony Brook
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Vermont
Central Conn.
Maine
Boston U.

Pretty good teams and programs with some coming back obviously.
Northeast conference w/ NYC and Boston markets and includes states NY, MA, CT, NH, VT, ME, RI.
Natural rivalries.
Very minimal travel costs to allow for great out of conference schedules.

[bandit]

I will start mine for JMU with the "new" Colonial Athletic Association.

North Division
Delaware
George Mason (non-football member)
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple
Towson
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion
Virginia Commonwealth (non-football member)

Reasons:
* Keeps JMU's alumni base happy with a strong presence in the northeast but expands southwards.
* 12 members for football and 14 members for other sports is not too ridiculous in my opinion.
* Have the Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Hampton Roads, and Atlanta media markets.
* Conference could have the potential of going to the FBS level if decided at a later date.
* Temple should be playing in the FCS rather than the MAC in the FBS.
* Richmond, Villanova, and William & Mary could join the Patriot League schools with Elon, Furman, and Wofford possibly?


I would LOVE to see this happen!

[89Hen]

I will start mine for JMU with the "new" Colonial Athletic Association.

North Division
Delaware
Massachusetts
Temple
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
James Madison
You do realize the goal of the regular season it to MAKE the playoffs, don't you? xeekx :p

I've never understood the reasoning behind a "super" conference like this.

[JMU Duke Dog]

You do realize the goal of the regular season it to MAKE the playoffs, don't you? xeekx :p

I've never understood the reasoning behind a "super" conference like this.

Potential reasoning behind it could be to keep up with the Gateway Conference expansion or planning a move to the FBS level.

Maybe they'll expand the FCS playoffs to 24 teams just for this conference? xsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

Richmond, Villanova, and William & Mary could join the Patriot League schools with Elon, Furman, and Wofford possibly?

I was thinking Furman might want to join the Big Skyxeyebrowx xnodx

[JMU Duke Dog]

I was thinking Furman might want to join the Big Skyxeyebrowx xnodx

The 2006 playoff selection committee would agree with that statement!

[Go...gate]

If not the Patriot League, then the Ivy League.

[aceinthehole]

IMO an ideal (and wild dream) football conference for CCSU would be a take on the old Yankee Conference (where we get to replace UConn) with 2 other newbies:

Maine
New Hampshire
UMass
URI
CCSU
Albany
Stony Brook
Towson
Delaware

- Basically CCSU would be right in the middle of the New England flaghships, the 2 SUNYs, and the 2 most northern Mid-Atlantic publics.

- The only gap in the footprint is NJ, but they don't have any public FCS schools.

- Of course Hofstra and Northeastern would be my "next 2 in" depening on size of the conference, I focused on public schools first.

- And believe it or not, except for Towson and Delaware, its not too outrageous for the future.

[89Hen]

Potential reasoning behind it could be to keep up with the Gateway Conference expansion or planning a move to the FBS level.

Maybe they'll expand the FCS playoffs to 24 teams just for this conference? xsmiley_wix
Those reasons are lost on me because I like I-AA and I like 16 teams.

If I had a perfect conference, it would be one that has all schools for all sports. Something that could be on the CAA horizon. xthumbsupx

[rmutv]

Well, if we're talking about a full scholarship Robert Morris team and all other FCS teams at full scholarship, then I'd like to see the following. It'll likely never happen, but it'd be interesting.

East Division
Bucknell
Georgetown
Eastern Kentucky
Lafayette
La Salle
Lehigh

West Division
Dayton
Duquesne
Murray State
Robert Morris
St. Francis of Pennsylvania
Youngstown State

Reasons:
-Mostly natural rivals based off of location and some previous established matchups.
-Working off the assumption that all teams are now full scholarship, otherwise it'd be a weak and unbalanced conference.
-Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, DC areas, with media coverage in DC, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and throughout Ohio.
-Gives Youngstown State an excuse to play Robert Morris in the continuation of the Ohio-PA rivalry! xlolx

[89Hen]

East Division
Bucknell
Georgetown
Eastern Kentucky
Lafayette
La Salle
Lehigh

West Division
Dayton
Duquesne
Murray State
Robert Morris
St. Francis of Pennsylvania
Youngstown State
A couple of intersting additions to the frey. xeyebrowx

[SU DOG]

Samford to the Southern Conference - sometimes dreams DO come true. One promise: With Pat Sullivan and the new administration's commitment, we will be more competitive in football than most think.

[Tod]

Those reasons are lost on me because I like I-AA and I like 16 teams.

If I had a perfect conference, it would be one that has all schools for all sports. Something that could be on the CAA horizon. xthumbsupx

Agree with you on both points.

But due to the situation out west, if the Great West doesn't make it, I'd be happy to take in SUU and have UCD and Cal Poly as football only members.

xtwocentsx

[Gil Dobie]

IMO, the Gateway is perfect for NDSU the way it is right now. xthumbsupx

[ElonPride]

(in no particular order):

1. Elon
2. Furman
3. Wofford
4. Towson
5. W&M
6. Davidson
7. Winthrop (Non-Football)
8. Richmond
9. JMU

[USDFAN_55]

San Diego
Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sac State
Portland State
Northern Arizona

Plus two more teams to make it an 8 team league. Just not too sure which two.

[Tod]

San Diego
Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sac State
Portland State
Northern Arizona

Plus two more teams to make it an 8 team league. Just not too sure which two.

Why not SUU? Maybe a team moves up, like Western Washington? Weber State?

[USDFAN_55]

Why not SUU? Maybe a team moves up, like Western Washington? Weber State?

Trying to keep in mind travel. I was thinking about Eastern Washington, but if you go that far north, then you can make a case for SUU or Weber as well.

[AggieFinn]

San Diego
Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sac State
Portland State
Northern Arizona

Plus two more teams to make it an 8 team league. Just not too sure which two.

From those already existing, USDFAN_55's plus:

E. Washington
maybe Idaho State, Southern Utah, Weber State

schools I'd like to see take FCS football up and get in the mix: UC Riverside, UC Irvine, CSU Northridge, CSU Long Beach, Univ. of the Pacific, CSU Fullerton, CSU Bakersfield, UC San Diego

[Seawolf97]

America East Football
Albany
Stony Brook
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Vermont
Central Conn.
Maine
Boston U.

Pretty good teams and programs with some coming back obviously.
Northeast conference w/ NYC and Boston markets and includes states NY, MA, CT, NH, VT, ME, RI.
Natural rivalries.
Very minimal travel costs to allow for great out of conference schedules.


Great conference ! Plus non conference games against Patriot, Ivy and CAA teams. It would have to boost attendance.

[Golden Eagle]

Tennessee Tech
Tennessee State
Austin Peay State
Eastern Kentucky
Tennessee-Chattanooga
Appalachian State
Western Carolina
Tennessee-Martin
Murray State
Southern Illinois

Obviously I like the makeup of the OVC already. ETSU would bump SIU if they would just get football back.

[CatFan22]

Originally I had 2 divisions with UC Davis and Cal Poly, but I think I like 10 teams in 1 conference a bit better:

Montana State
Montana
Weber State
Idaho State
Eastern Washington
Northern Arizona
Portland State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Colorado

[RabidRabbit]

In about 5 years, after USD &UND are done transitioning.....

NDSU
SDSU
USD
UND
UNI
UNC
Montana
Montana St.
Drake (Bring in schollies or don't compete in FB)
Creighton (non-FB)

A Strong Upper Mid west conference xwhistlex

[henfan]

For Delaware, I like the current CAA arrangement. Like 89Hen though, I'd prefer a conference that includes as few affiliate and non-football members as possible, understanding that both are almost necessities at the mid-major level at this point in time.

I'm also not adversed to increasing CAA all-sport membership to 14 or decreasing it through attrition to as few as 10. Regardless of the number of members, I would like to see the CAA split into geographic divisions for Olympic sports to save on travel. That's something that should happen sooner rather than later, IMO.

[Eyes of Old Main]

SoCon North
Appalachian State
Western Carolina
Elon
Chattanooga
James Madison
Richmond
William & Mary

SoCon South
Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
Georgia Southern
Samford
Jacksonville State
Coastal Carolina

With 14 teams, schedules wouldn't be very consistent, but 6 division games and two rotating opposite division games wouldn't be too bad.

And deep six all the non-football schools: Davidson, College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro. But wait, I'm in favor of that whether more additions come or not.

[89Hen]

With 14 teams, schedules wouldn't be very consistent, but 6 division games and two rotating opposite division games wouldn't be too bad.
xeekx You could have conference mates that you would never play during your time at college either as a student or a player. I guess that could work to your advantage... "We NEVER lost to AppSt while I was on the team." xsmiley_wix :p

I can tell you from a fan of a 12 team conference... it stinks. :(

[Pard94]

We've been playing this same game over on the Lafayette board. I came up with the following dream league based on many PL members desires to go full scholarship (despite the fact that there are a couple of stubborn hold outs). That being the case, this league is based on those schools who fit a certain profile academically but would be in favor of a full compliment of athletic scholarships. Not a shot in hell this would happen but as long as we are dreaming I'd go with...

Lafayette
Lehigh
Colgate
Bucknell
William & Mary
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond

[Go...gate]

We've been playing this same game over on the Lafayette board. I came up with the following dream league based on many PL members desires to go full scholarship (despite the fact that there are a couple of stubborn hold outs). That being the case, this league is based on those schools who fit a certain profile academically but would be in favor of a full compliment of athletic scholarships. Not a shot in hell this would happen but as long as we are dreaming I'd go with...

Lafayette
Lehigh
Colgate
Bucknell
William & Mary
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond

A great one - truly the dream PL for football.

[89Hen]

as long as we are dreaming I'd go with...

Lafayette
Lehigh
Colgate
Bucknell
William & Mary
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond


A great one - truly the dream PL for football.
Could be the only conference snobbier than the Ivy. :p :D

[SuperJon]

I love it. Most of the conferences are either in the Carolina, VA, Mid-Atlantic, etc, and no mention of Liberty. It's great. We apparently suck.

[andy7171]

I love it. Most of the conferences are either in the Carolina, VA, Mid-Atlantic, etc, and no mention of Liberty. It's great. We apparently suck.
Towson and Liberty was/is a nice rivalry, although sadly not on our schedule in the next 4 years.

In the early 90's I hated playing you guys. Not only were y'all the dirtiest players, but you also pissed us off by handing out prayer/conversion pamphlets instead of shaking hands! xoopsx

[AZGrizFan]

I was thinking Furman might want to join the Big Skyxeyebrowx xnodx

Why would you want to move to a conference where you'd finish 3rd every year, when you finish 2nd every year now? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[SuperJon]

Towson and Liberty was/is a nice rivalry, although sadly not on our schedule in the next 4 years.

In the early 90's I hated playing you guys. Not only were y'all the dirtiest players, but you also pissed us off by handing out prayer/conversion pamphlets instead of shaking hands! xoopsx

That made me laugh. We don't hand out that stuff anymore, just have both teams huddle at midfield for a prayer. I just think it's funny that we have the best playing surface in VA (better than a few NFL teams) and the best "field house" in VA FCS football, yet because of who we are and our former chancellor, no one ever wants to mention us.

[OL FU]

Why would you want to move to a conference where you'd finish 3rd every year, when you finish 2nd every year now? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I think you are confusing one year with most years:p

[GeeWiz]

I will start mine for JMU with the "new" Colonial Athletic Association.

North Division
Delaware
George Mason (non-football member)
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple
Towson
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion
Virginia Commonwealth (non-football member)

* Conference could have the potential of going to the FBS level if decided at a later date.
* Temple should be playing in the FCS rather than the MAC in the FBS.


Why does everyone think Temple is going to move down to FCS? They're not going to do it.

They'd drop football before coming down to FCS.

I mean really, why would they move down and play their home game in Lincoln Financial Field aganist JMU, ODU, NU, Towson etc?

They didn't draw flies vs. UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers or even Miami yet they'll draw vs. Costal Carolina?

C'mon

If you want to keep a Philly market then Villanova stays in the league.

And you can forget this league being a FBS league. By the time that happens they'll BE a true National Championship in 1-A.

[andy7171]

That made me laugh. We don't hand out that stuff anymore, just have both teams huddle at midfield for a prayer. I just think it's funny that we have the best playing surface in VA (better than a few NFL teams) and the best "field house" in VA FCS football, yet because of who we are and our former chancellor, no one ever wants to mention us.
The first game I started, my sophomore year, was against you guys down there on the old "new turf", the astro turf one with the red endzones. Nice stadium, but it was 110 and muggy on gameday. Plus the guy I was playing was a senior and #78. It was like I was playing aginst Bruce Smith himself...in hell.

Sam Rittigliano had the team eat their pre-game meal watching our Friday night practice up in the press box. Classy!

Seriously though, no hard feelings, xrolleyesx ;) , I'll root for you guys this year. xthumbsupx xpeacex

[SuperJon]

I wasn't around back then, can't blame me.

That old turf was horrible. We've got the very best Field Turf you could possibly get.

[andy7171]

I wasn't around back then, can't blame me.

That old turf was horrible. We've got the very best Field Turf you could possibly get.
I'm not blaming you. xpeacex The last two years have settled my angst against you guys, it sucked going 0-4 and not getting a chance to play you guys my senior year when we were good though. :D
The old turf was brand new in 1991, and the red endzones were sweet!

[AZGrizFan]

I think you are confusing one year with most years:p


Well, GSU sucks now, so you're in like Flynn. xthumbsupx

[Polywog]

The Great Big West Sky Football Conference:

Cal Poly
UC Davis
Portland State
Sac State
Montana
Montana State
Idaho State (or Northern Arizona...I can't decide)
Eastern Washington
San Diego

[AZGrizFan]

The Great Big West Sky Football Conference:

Cal Poly
UC Davis
Portland State
Sac State
Montana
Montana State
Idaho State (or Northern Arizona...I can't decide)
Eastern Washington
San Diego

Well, it'd better be Northern Arizona OVER San Diego in this scenario. And where does that leave Weber State? Why not let Sac State go away and include Weber. Then you've got a pretty nice conference, without a cupcake.

[USDFAN_55]

The Great Big West Sky Football Conference:

Cal Poly
UC Davis
Portland State
Sac State
Montana
Montana State
Idaho State (or Northern Arizona...I can't decide)
Eastern Washington
San Diego

Now I would love to see that. Or maybe even some day just seeing teams like that on the schedule regularly, besides the Azuzas and Dixie States that I'm used to seeing. One can only hope and dream.

[Tribe4SF]

CAA North

UMass
Maine
UNH
Northeastern
Hofstra
Villanova

CAA South

Delaware
Towson
JMU
Richmond
Old Dominion
William & Mary

Unlike most on this thread, I'll probably get mine. Lacking a coherent, future CAA, Ill take....

The Virginia Conference

JMU
Richmond
W&M
Hampton
Norfolk State
VMI
Liberty
Old Dominion

[SU Jag]

The SWAC Eastern Division
Alabama A&M
Alabama State
Jackson State
Alcorn State
Tennesee State(yes sir)
Tuskegee(yes sirxnodx )

Western Division
Arkansas Pine-Bluff
Grambling
Texas Southern
Southern
Prairie View
Mississippi Valley State

8 conference games, none of this 9 game mandate foolishness.

[CrusaderBob]

We've been playing this same game over on the Lafayette board. I came up with the following dream league based on many PL members desires to go full scholarship (despite the fact that there are a couple of stubborn hold outs). That being the case, this league is based on those schools who fit a certain profile academically but would be in favor of a full compliment of athletic scholarships. Not a shot in hell this would happen but as long as we are dreaming I'd go with...

Lafayette
Lehigh
Colgate
Bucknell
William & Mary
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond

Just a hunch, but given the alternatives, I'd bet Holy Cross would be willing to "pay the price" of scholarships if they knew implementing them would "buy" them a slot as the 9th team in that conference. Especially if a couple of them come along as all-sports members in a re-vamped PL!

[LUHawker]

Could be the only conference snobbier than the Ivy. :p :D

Spoken like a true Delaware grad.

[89Hen]

Spoken like a true Delaware grad.
xnodx xthumbsupx

[JMU Duke Dog]

How about this national overhaul for FCS conferences? xrotatehx

BIG SKY CONFERENCE
Central Washington*
Eastern Washington
Western Washington*
Idaho State
Montana
Montana State
Northern Colorado
Portland State
Weber State

BIG SOUTH CONFERENCE – no longer exists

COLONIAL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION
North Division
Delaware
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple*
Towson
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State*
James Madison
Old Dominion*

GATEWAY CONFERENCE
East Division
Eastern Illinois
Illinois State
Indiana State
Southern Illinois
Western Illinois
Youngstown State
West Division
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
North Dakota*
North Dakota State
South Dakota*
South Dakota State

GREAT WEST CONFERENCE
Cal Poly
Humboldt State*
Northern Arizona
Sacramento State
San Diego
Southern Utah
UC-Davis
UC-Irvine*

IVY LEAGUE
stays the same

MAAC – no longer exists

MEAC
stays the same

NEW ENGLAND CONFERENCE
Albany
Maine
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook
Vermont*

NORTHEAST CONFERENCE
Central Connecticut State
Duquesne
Iona
La Salle
Marist
Monmouth
Robert Morris
Sacred Heart
St. Francis (PA)
St. Peter's
Wagner

OHIO VALLEY CONFERENCE
North Division
Austin Peay
Eastern Kentucky
Morehead State
Murray State
Southeast Missouri State
UT-Martin
South Division
Jacksonville State
Samford
Tennessee State
Tennessee Tech
UT-Chattanooga
Western Carolina

PATRIOT LEAGUE
North Division
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
South Division
Davidson
Furman
Georgetown
Richmond
Villanova
William & Mary

PIONEER CONFERENCE
Butler
Dayton
Drake
Jacksonville
Savannah State
Valparaiso

SOUTHERN CONFERENCE
Campbell*
Charleston Southern
Elon
Gardner-Webb
Liberty
Presbyterian
The Citadel
VMI
Wofford

SOUTHLAND CONFERENCE
Central Arkansas
Delta State*
McNeese State
Nicholls State
Northeastern State
Sam Houston State
Southeastern Louisiana
Stephen F. Austin
Texas State

SWAC
stays the same


*Currently do not field a team playing at the Division I-FCS level.

[89Hen]

COLONIAL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION
North Division
Delaware
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple*
Towson
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State*
James Madison
Old Dominion*

NEW ENGLAND CONFERENCE
Albany
Maine
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook
Vermont*
Each with one autobid? xeyebrowx :p

[65 Pard]

Once more I describe the Ultimate league for us

The NEW Ivy league

Ivy Conference

Yale
Harvard
Brown
Colgate
Cornell
Dartmouth
Holy Cross

Patriot Conference

Princeton
Lafayette
Lehigh
Penn
Columbia
Fordham
Georgetown

Would produce probably 2 playoff teams....
Everyone plays in their conference and schedules other conference teams on a rotating basis....

[JMU Duke Dog]

How about this national overhaul for FCS conferences? xrotatehx

BIG SKY CONFERENCE
Central Washington*
Eastern Washington
Western Washington*
Idaho State
Montana
Montana State
Northern Colorado
Portland State
Weber State

BIG SOUTH CONFERENCE – no longer exists

COLONIAL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION
North Division
Delaware
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple*
Towson
South Division
Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State*
James Madison
Old Dominion*

GATEWAY CONFERENCE
East Division
Eastern Illinois
Illinois State
Indiana State
Southern Illinois
Western Illinois
Youngstown State
West Division
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
North Dakota*
North Dakota State
South Dakota*
South Dakota State

GREAT WEST CONFERENCE
Cal Poly
Humboldt State*
Northern Arizona
Sacramento State
San Diego
Southern Utah
UC-Davis
UC-Irvine*

IVY LEAGUE
stays the same

MAAC – no longer exists

MEAC
stays the same

NEW ENGLAND CONFERENCE
Albany
Maine
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook
Vermont*

NORTHEAST CONFERENCE
Central Connecticut State
Duquesne
Iona
La Salle
Marist
Monmouth
Robert Morris
Sacred Heart
St. Francis (PA)
St. Peter's
Wagner

OHIO VALLEY CONFERENCE
North Division
Austin Peay
Eastern Kentucky
Morehead State
Murray State
Southeast Missouri State
UT-Martin
South Division
Jacksonville State
Samford
Tennessee State
Tennessee Tech
UT-Chattanooga
Western Carolina

PATRIOT LEAGUE
North Division
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
South Division
Davidson
Furman
Georgetown
Richmond
Villanova
William & Mary

PIONEER CONFERENCE
Butler
Dayton
Drake
Jacksonville
Savannah State
Valparaiso

SOUTHERN CONFERENCE
Campbell*
Charleston Southern
Elon
Gardner-Webb
Liberty
Presbyterian
The Citadel
VMI
Wofford

SOUTHLAND CONFERENCE
Central Arkansas
Delta State*
McNeese State
Nicholls State
Northeastern State
Sam Houston State
Southeastern Louisiana
Stephen F. Austin
Texas State

SWAC
stays the same


*Currently do not field a team playing at the Division I-FCS level.

I would give one autobid each to the Big Sky, CAA, Gateway, Great West, MEAC, New England, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, and Southland. This would leave 6 at-large bids for a 16-team playoffs format and 14 at-large bids for a 24-team playoff format.

I would probably give an autobid to the Ivy League and SWAC too if they decided to participate in the playoffs. Maybe the Northeast and Pioneer if the playoff format included 24 teams but not for only a 16-team playoff format.

[SuperJon]

Your new SoCon is basically the old Big South with a few of the SoCon guys thrown in.

[JMU Duke Dog]

Your new SoCon is basically the old Big South with a few of the SoCon guys thrown in.

I decided on the Southern Conference name due to it having more prestige and history than the Big South Conference name.

[Franks Tanks]

Once more I describe the Ultimate league for us

The NEW Ivy league

Ivy Conference

Yale
Harvard
Brown
Colgate
Cornell
Dartmouth
Holy Cross

Patriot Conference

Princeton
Lafayette
Lehigh
Penn
Columbia
Fordham
Georgetown

Would produce probably 2 playoff teams....
Everyone plays in their conference and schedules other conference teams on a rotating basis....

This would be an incredibly agreeable but unfortuantly unlikely scenario

[GeeWiz]

PATRIOT LEAGUE
North Division
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
South Division
Davidson
Furman
Georgetown
Richmond
Villanova
William & Mary


So W&M, Richmond and 'Nova are going to join the non-scholarship Patriot League? Try selling that one to the Tribe fans ... xthumbsupx

Look I like most of your ideas but some are a little bit of a head scratcher JMU DukeDawg. xoopsx

[Franks Tanks]

So W&M, Richmond and 'Nova are going to join the non-scholarship Patriot League? Try selling that one to the Tribe fans ... xthumbsupx

Look I like most of your ideas but some are a little bit of a head scratcher JMU DukeDawg. xoopsx

The Patriot league will have football schoralships t0 go with scholarships in the other sports within the next decade I believe.

[Polywog]

Well, it'd better be Northern Arizona OVER San Diego in this scenario. And where does that leave Weber State? Why not let Sac State go away and include Weber. Then you've got a pretty nice conference, without a cupcake.

I was looking to include all of the California FCS schools in the same conference. Leaving out Northern Arizona was not meant as a slight. I just thought ISU was potentially a better fit geographically for this scenario, which is why I also left out SUU and Weber.

[mainejeff]

Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Hofstra
Delaware
Towson

[cpstang]

GREAT WEST CONFERENCE
Cal Poly
Humboldt State*
Northern Arizona
Sacramento State
San Diego
Southern Utah
UC-Davis
UC-Irvine*



For Poly, UCSB would draw a lot bigger crowd, then Irvine, since Poly and SB are rivals in every other sport and are an hour away from each other. Poly would then have two huge games: UCSB & Davis.

[poly51]

For Poly, UCSB would draw a lot bigger crowd, then Irvine, since Poly and SB are rivals in every other sport and are an hour away from each other. Poly would then have two huge games: UCSB & Davis.

Cal State Bakersfield would also be good. Bakersfield would be a better football city.

[already123]

BIG SKY

North

Montana
Montana State
Eastern Washington
Idaho*
Portland State
Idaho State
(Wyoming...?)

South

UC Davis
USD
Northern Arizona
SUU
Sac State
Cal Poly
(Utah State...?)

[JoltinJoe]

Could be the only conference snobbier than the Ivy. :p :D

Thank you.:p

[JoltinJoe]

Once more I describe the Ultimate league for us

The NEW Ivy league

Ivy Conference

Yale
Harvard
Brown
Colgate
Cornell
Dartmouth
Holy Cross

Patriot Conference

Princeton
Lafayette
Lehigh
Penn
Columbia
Fordham
Georgetown

Would produce probably 2 playoff teams....
Everyone plays in their conference and schedules other conference teams on a rotating basis....

Why no Bucknell?

[JoltinJoe]

Just a hunch, but given the alternatives, I'd bet Holy Cross would be willing to "pay the price" of scholarships if they knew implementing them would "buy" them a slot as the 9th team in that conference. Especially if a couple of them come along as all-sports members in a re-vamped PL!

I hope you're right. And Georgetown too.

[Cobblestone]

IMO an ideal (and wild dream) football conference for CCSU would be a take on the old Yankee Conference (where we get to replace UConn) with 2 other newbies:

Maine
New Hampshire
UMass
URI
CCSU
Albany
Stony Brook
Towson
Delaware

- Basically CCSU would be right in the middle of the New England flaghships, the 2 SUNYs, and the 2 most northern Mid-Atlantic publics.

- The only gap in the footprint is NJ, but they don't have any public FCS schools.

- Of course Hofstra and Northeastern would be my "next 2 in" depening on size of the conference, I focused on public schools first.

- And believe it or not, except for Towson and Delaware, its not too outrageous for the future.

I agree with this. I'd love to see us O-U-T out of the CAA. What you've posted would be a good makeup for America East football.

[Seawolf97]

I would give one autobid each to the Big Sky, CAA, Gateway, Great West, MEAC, New England, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, and Southland. This would leave 6 at-large bids for a 16-team playoffs format and 14 at-large bids for a 24-team playoff format.

I would probably give an autobid to the Ivy League and SWAC too if they decided to participate in the playoffs. Maybe the Northeast and Pioneer if the playoff format included 24 teams but not for only a 16-team playoff format.

Now thats planning !xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

That made me laugh. We don't hand out that stuff anymore, just have both teams huddle at midfield for a prayer. I just think it's funny that we have the best playing surface in VA (better than a few NFL teams) and the best "field house" in VA FCS football, yet because of who we are and our former chancellor, no one ever wants to mention us.

No Offense but that is no small reason, face it most americans are very secular these days are are turned off by agressive evangelism and your former chancellor. Should that cause people to feel funny about your university and your students? No it shouldnt but I feel that it certainly can be a factor

[SuperJon]

Oh, I'm not saying it's a small reason. I know it's the biggest reason why we didn't get into the SoCon back in the mid-90's.

[Franks Tanks]

Oh, I'm not saying it's a small reason. I know it's the biggest reason why we didn't get into the SoCon back in the mid-90's.

Well its a shame if that was a factor

[SuperJon]

It was one of the main reasons LU didn't get into the SoCon then.

[Polywog]

BIG SKY

North

Montana
Montana State
Eastern Washington
Idaho*
Portland State
Idaho State
(Wyoming...?)

South

UC Davis
USD
Northern Arizona
SUU
Sac State
Cal Poly
(Utah State...?)

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice!

[Lionsrking]

Ideal conference for us would be an All-Louisiana FCS league with the FBS wannabes dropping down.

ULM
La Tech
NW State
Grambling
McNeese
ULL
Southern
Nicholls State
Southeastern

Of course ULL, ULM and Tech dropping down would never happen and Southern and Grambling would never leave the SWAC, but that would make a great league with a perfect number of teams.

[already123]

I like that all LA conf!!

What about this...




The NEW Southland

WEST:
SHSU
Tarelton St.
Texas St.
SFA
TSU
PVAMU
SMU
UNT
(UTSA...it would be great if they hada program)

East:
La Tech
UL Monroe
UL Laf
McNeese
SELA
Grambling
Southern
NW ST.


Classic Texas vs. Louisiana

[Ken_Z]

Why no Bucknell?

obviously, the normal Lafayette fear and envy of the mighty Bison comes into play here.

[BULLDOG8180]

How about an all South Carolina conference + 2:

Furman
Wofford
The Citadel
Coastal Carolina
Charleston Southern
Presbyterian
Gardner Webb
Western Carolina

[LUHawker]

Lehigh
Lafayette
Penn
Villanova
Delaware
Princeton

[Cocky]

Existing Teams:
Chattanooga
Ga Southern
Samford
Alabama A&M
Alabama State
FAMU
Tenn Tech
Tenn State
Furman
Jacksonville State

Dream:
Troy
Middle Tenn
Chattanooga
Ga Southern
App State
Western Kentucky
UAB
Eastern Kentucky
East Carolina
Jacksonville State

[Pard94]

Just a hunch, but given the alternatives, I'd bet Holy Cross would be willing to "pay the price" of scholarships if they knew implementing them would "buy" them a slot as the 9th team in that conference. Especially if a couple of them come along as all-sports members in a re-vamped PL!

That would be awesome if the did because the only flaw in that league would be no teams north of NY...which would be a shame. HC would fit right in if they would bite the scholarship bullett.

[65 Pard]

obviously, the normal Lafayette fear and envy of the mighty Bison comes into play here.

Ooops, I forgot that you guys had a football team:) :) :)

Just an oversight due to rushing through the post....Bucknell would obviously be the other team in the Patriot Conference..

[carney2]

We've been playing this same game over on the Lafayette board. I came up with the following dream league based on many PL members desires to go full scholarship (despite the fact that there are a couple of stubborn hold outs). That being the case, this league is based on those schools who fit a certain profile academically but would be in favor of a full compliment of athletic scholarships. Not a shot in hell this would happen but as long as we are dreaming I'd go with...

Lafayette
Lehigh
Colgate
Bucknell
William & Mary
Fordham
Villanova
Richmond

And...Johns Hopkins?

Sorry, 94. Couldn't resist the shot. For the rest of you, sorry, it's an inside joke. And now, back to the Internal Revenue Code for a good read.

[carney2]

Just a hunch, but given the alternatives, I'd bet Holy Cross would be willing to "pay the price" of scholarships if they knew implementing them would "buy" them a slot as the 9th team in that conference. Especially if a couple of them come along as all-sports members in a re-vamped PL!

Is this a 'sader voice on this board?!! Lordy, lordy, Bob, have we been waiting for you. Welcome.

[carney2]

The Patriot league will have football schoralships t0 go with scholarships in the other sports within the next decade I believe.

Colgate13 predicted 2010, and this prediction is only about one year old.

[ysubigred]

A couple of intersting additions to the frey. xeyebrowx

Murray St is pretty far west xconfusedx I live in Louisville KY and it's still a 2 1/2 hour trip to Murray KY.

[ysubigred]

Well, if we're talking about a full scholarship Robert Morris team and all other FCS teams at full scholarship, then I'd like to see the following. It'll likely never happen, but it'd be interesting.

East Division
Bucknell
Georgetown
Eastern Kentucky
Lafayette
La Salle
Lehigh

West Division
Dayton
Duquesne
Murray State
Robert Morris
St. Francis of Pennsylvania
Youngstown State

Reasons:
-Mostly natural rivals based off of location and some previous established matchups.
-Working off the assumption that all teams are now full scholarship, otherwise it'd be a weak and unbalanced conference.
-Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, DC areas, with media coverage in DC, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and throughout Ohio.
-Gives Youngstown State an excuse to play Robert Morris in the continuation of the Ohio-PA rivalry! xlolx

Murray ST ??? Might want to add Indiana also since Murray ST is so far west.

Would love to see RMU on the schedule opposed to our annual D-II debacle :)

[89Hen]

Lehigh
Lafayette
Penn
Villanova
Delaware
Princeton
Like the Big Sky East... free autobid for the Hens! :p

Yes, spoken like a true UD grad. :p :p

[Ken_Z]

Ooops, I forgot that you guys had a football team:) :) :)


ahh, well if all you needed was a reminder, one will be provided on Nov 3rd. :D

[Franks Tanks]

Colgate13 predicted 2010, and this prediction is only about one year old.

I certainly dont have any inside information, just my hypothesis from teh rumblings and general current of the league and FCS football in teh east in general

[CrusaderBob]

Is this a 'sader voice on this board?!! Lordy, lordy, Bob, have we been waiting for you. Welcome.

I am indeed a voice from 'Sader Nation! And TY for the warm welcome!

Been lurking for a while. Posted here a few times this summer. Hope I can make the wait worth it! I'll try to recruit a few of my Crossports bretheren as well, just in case I can't live up to the hype!

[LUHawker]

Like the Big Sky East... free autobid for the Hens! :p

Yes, spoken like a true UD grad. :p :p

But of course, UD recruits will have to raise their academics (yeah, right :o) or the other schools would have to employ scholarships. If you put them all on equal recruiting footing, you'd have a great league.

[TheValleyRaider]

ahh, well if all you needed was a reminder, one will be provided on Nov 3rd. :D

So what you're saying is Bucknell's big win this year will be against Lafayette, and not Colgate? xwhistlex

[CrusaderBob]

But of course, UD recruits will have to raise their academics (yeah, right :o) or the other schools would have to employ scholarships. If you put them all on equal recruiting footing, you'd have a great league.

A bit off topic but ...

If you leave Holy Cross out of a rivalry building scenario, you only give more fuel for some of our fans to hate on the PL. If someone is left out of a season ending rivalry game in the PL, it's got to be one of the associate members.

In 1986 when HC and BC played for the final time Colgate was widely mentioned as the replacement rival. It is one of the failings of the league that in 20+ years of football and 15+ years of all sports, no real rivalries have developed.

Holy Cross and Colgate have played 69 times over the years with HC leading the series 36-28-5 and so I think they should close the season each year, every year with eachother.

The HC Bucknell basketball games have had quite a bit of juice the last 3 seasons - I've been at 5 of the 9 games. I could see the PL building on that. Worst case HC should close with Fordham or Georgetown in football, with the other out in the cold.

I have long maintained that the simple way to develop a rivalry is for two rschools to play each other in the final game of the season, every year, in every sport. In short order, the schools will play some meaninful games where:


A last place team knocks the other out of the league championship.

Another team celebrates a championship on the other's home field/court.

Another whines about a poor offciating job costing them a game.

Etc.


Soon you have the women's lacrosse team, the baseball team, and the football team really disliking the other school, so they really want the basketball team to knock off the other. It builds the rivalry and school spirit.

I wish the PL would understand this and try to take advantage of it, albeit 20 years late!

[89Hen]

But of course, UD recruits will have to raise their academics
xeyebrowx Resorting to the "Our math team can beat your math team" arguement? xlolx

[LUHawker]

[QUOTE=CrusaderBob;602074][COLOR="Purple"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="2"]
If you leave Holy Cross out of a rivalry building scenario, you only give more fuel for some of our fans to hate on the PL. If someone is left out of a season ending rivalry game in the PL, it's got to be one of the associate members.
QUOTE]

I left a handful of current PL schools off of the "ideal" league, so it wasn't directed towards HC. In fact, I still believe the best football game I've ever seen was Lehigh-HC in Bethlehem in 1991(?), when HC prevailed, so there has been some good rivalry between HC and LU.

[CrusaderBob]

I left a handful of current PL schools off of the "ideal" league, so it wasn't directed towards HC. In fact, I still believe the best football game I've ever seen was Lehigh-HC in Bethlehem in 1991(?), when HC prevailed, so there has been some good rivalry between HC and LU.

Hawker,

Don't know how I did it, but my post, which I've moved to the rivalry thread landed here with me quoting your post. No clue how I managed to do that.

Rookie mistake. My apologies!

[g-webb1994]

I was kind of hoping at some point that G-W would be in the mix to join the SOCON, but we blew that with our NCAA grade scandal a few years back I believe.

IMO, Liberty didn't get in the SOCON due to Falwell's talking ad nauseum about being the next Notre Dame, etc. I don't think to SOCON wants temporary schools (unlike the Big South apparently), they want long-term members.

I do like the Carolina +2 conference idea, but that would never happen, but nice to dream anyway.

[proasu89]

(in no particular order):

1. Elon
2. Furman
3. Wofford
4. Towson
5. W&M
6. Davidson
7. Winthrop (Non-Football)
8. Richmond
9. JMU

xlolx Ya'll best not play in the rain. Somebody might drown:D

[DFW HOYA]

If you leave Holy Cross out of a rivalry building scenario, you only give more fuel for some of our fans to hate on the PL. If someone is left out of a season ending rivalry game in the PL, it's got to be one of the associate members.

That's why Georgetown sits at home the last week of the season.

Don't worry, every PL team but the Lehigh Valley schools will eventually do likewise.

[813Jag]

Ideal conference for us would be an All-Louisiana FCS league with the FBS wannabes dropping down.

ULM
La Tech
NW State
Grambling
McNeese
ULL
Southern
Nicholls State
Southeastern

Of course ULL, ULM and Tech dropping down would never happen and Southern and Grambling would never leave the SWAC, but that would make a great league with a perfect number of teams.
I think a bigger issue would be USL and NLU xlolx they wouldn't want to "go down"

[Dukie95]

we have the best playing surface in VA

What surface do you have? JMU and W&M both installed Field Turf last year, and I thought it was hard to get any better than that.

[SuperJon]

We've got the top of the line Field Turf. It's the same as JMU and W&M, just a step above you guys. The difference is in the padding and rubber pellets, etc that goes underneath the turf. We played at Wake last year who had Field Turf, and we had the level above them. Our turf was said by the company to be Super Bowl quality. It was the same as the Detroit Lions put in before the Super Bowl.

[ATrain]

The Virginia Conference:
Liberty
ODU
W&M
VMI
Norfolk St.
Hampton
JMU
Richmond
Towson*

*I know Towson is in Maryland, but they could be the ninth school so everyone has 4 home games and 4 away.

Carolina Conference:
Appy St.
WCU
G-Dub
CCU
CSU
Presby
SC State
Wofford
Furman
The Citadel

Everyone else can re-organize around these two conferences

[breezy]

Is this a 'sader voice on this board?!! Lordy, lordy, Bob, have we been waiting for you. Welcome.

Carney --

Have you forgotten me already?xlolx

[ccd494]

an all sports conference :):

-Maine
-New Hampshire
-Vermont
-UMass
-Boston University
-Boston College
-Providence College
-UMass-Lowell
-Merrimack College

Or all but the important sport conference:

-Maine
-UNH
-UMass
-URI
-Stony Brook
-Albany
-CCSU
-Northeastern
-Hofstra

[grizband]

Big Sky
Montana
Montana State
Eastern Washington
Idaho State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
North Dakota
South Dakota
Weber State

Great West
Portland State
Sacramento State
Cal Poly
UC Davis
San Diego
Northern Arizona
Southern Utah
Nothern Colorado

[TheBisonator]

Here's what would happen if I ruled the world:

THE WESTERN CONFERENCE:

Boise State
Idaho
Montana
Montana State
New Mexico State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Utah State
Wyoming

With Montana State already having huge plans for their stadium, the only question in this scenario is: Would South Dakota State have the money to upgrade their football facilities to FBS-caliber??

[TheValleyRaider]

an all sports conference :):

-Maine
-New Hampshire
-Vermont
-UMass
-Boston University
-Boston College
-Providence College
-UMass-Lowell
-Merrimack College

Looks somewhat familiar, but I can't quite place my finger on it xchinscratchx


P.S. I think you forgot Northeastern

[Pard4Life]

Oh that's easy...

Lafayette
Princeton
Penn
Harvard
Yale
Dartmouth
Brown
Columbia

..we play the darn schedule anyhow...

[ccd494]

Looks somewhat familiar, but I can't quite place my finger on it xchinscratchx


P.S. I think you forgot Northeastern

Well, they are very forgettable in that league. :)

[ch0306]

If not the Patriot League, then the Ivy League.


Yes, the Ivy League. I'd keep it just the same. It's perhaps the only football conference (at least in DI) that's unchanged in membership over the past 50 years.

[Maroons]

I think it's interesting how many of us long for conferences that group schools in one state together. I have felt for a long time that the best way for FCS to succeed is to capitalize as much as possible on the interest generated by intense local rivalries. Interestingly, the OVC was essentially the "Kentucky/Tennessee" conference... but over time, various factors have pulled it apart and into various directions.

Anyway... having said all that... my ideal conference for EKU would include all our former and current rivals and a few other local schools.

Eastern Kentucky
Jacksonville State
Marshall
Middle Tennessee State
Morehead State
Murray State
Tennessee Tech
Tennessee State
East Tennessee State
Western Kentucky

A few notes:
- Eastern Illinois, though a "rival" for the OVC title, is so far out of the beaten path, that I did not include them.
- Jacksonville State, though so far out of the beaten path, was included because of the burgeoning rivalry. Go figure. Just my personal preference I guess.
- Louisville, though a historic rival of EKU, was left off just because of the EXTREME unlikelyhood of the schools ever being in the same conference again.

[Bull_Dawgin83]

If I were starting a new conference in the Atlantic area I would want the following 12 schools in the conference

North:

Delaware State
New Hampshire
Hofstra
Towson
Maine
Massachussetts

South:

Georgia Southern
Coastal Carolina
Central Florida
Appalachian State
Richmond
James Madison

[UNHWildCats]

Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Hofstra
Delaware
Towson

Finally someone not sticking UNH in a weak ass conference.

[UNHWildCats]

If I were starting a new conference in the Atlantic area I would want the following 12 schools in the conference

North:

Delaware State
New Hampshire
Hofstra
Towson
Maine
Massachussetts

South:

Georgia Southern
Coastal Carolina
Central Florida
Appalachian State
Richmond
James Madison

This could be nice if u drop Central Florida and Ga Southern move towson to the south and add Delaware in the North and then another team in the south just now as far south as the two i dumped.

[zilla]

Coastal Carolina to the CAA? Really?

What's the latest on CAA expansion, the potential addition of Albany, etc.? Will the league add two more schools to create a 14-team "super-conference"?

[89Hen]

What's the latest on CAA expansion, the potential addition of Albany, etc.? Will the league add two more schools to create a 14-team "super-conference"?
IMO, nothing and no.

[Kymermosst]

an all sports conference :):

-Maine
-New Hampshire
-Vermont
-UMass
-Boston University
-Boston College
-Providence College
-UMass-Lowell
-Merrimack College

Or all but the important sport conference:

-Maine
-UNH
-UMass
-URI
-Stony Brook
-Albany
-CCSU
-Northeastern
-Hofstra

The most interesting part of this is how Northeastern reappears when you forget about that other sport. ;)

[T-Dog]

It seems like all the CAA/Virginia people want to get rid of UNCW (non-football school)


COLONIAL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION

North Division

Delaware
Hofstra
Massachusetts
Northeastern
Temple*
Towson

South Division

Appalachian State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State*
James Madison
Old Dominion*

Talk about a travel nightmare having to go North.

Personally, I'm fine with what we got right now for the most part. Get rid of Samford and Elon though and replace with ETSU (with football) and either G-W or Coastal. More than likely Coastal.

I can't tell you how much App people would love to see football back at ETSU. It was a short drive (90 minutes max) and a good rival. And they were going to get a new stadium as well to replace that God-forsaken MiniDome.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Hofstra
Delaware
Towson

Not sure UMass or URI would ever agree to this as an all sports league, but I sure would love this as UNH's all sports league with the core eight as all sports members!

Personally, I think James Madison and Old Dominion have higher football aspirations that the ten schools mentioned above. And if Georgia State does initiate football, then they too will have higher aspirations. If these three did bring those plans to fruition, then the above configuration would be feasible. From the existing CAA Football League, that would leave William & Mary, Richmond and Villanova seeking a home.

Personally, I'd love to have William & Mary as an all sports member of the league and would entice them with either an offer to Hampton for all sports (better option for travel for all sports) or Richmond for football only. Actually, this league would then give the three A-10 all sports schools with full scholarship football the same home.

North

Maine, UNH, Northeastern, UMass*, URI*, Albany

South

Hofstra, Stony Brook, Delaware, Towson, William & Mary, Richmond* or Hampton

* = Affiliate

In the worst case scenario, there would be nine all sports members. There would be the option of adding one or three non-football schools if the need was perceived to improve travel for all sports or for scheduling. Being an America East guy and knowing that the other CAA all sports teams wouldn't go for this affiliation anyway, I'd have Vermont, Binghamton, and Maryland-Baltimore County to pick from.

I'd attempt to get the non football schools Boston Univ., Hartford, Drexel, George Mason, VA Commonwealth and UNC-Wilmington to form the core of another league. Rider (why are they affiliated with all the Catholic schools in the MAAC????), George Washington, and others from any A-10/Big East implosion would be prime candidates to fill in this league with basketball centric schools. UNCW could move to a more southern league if they chose and there are plenty of private/parochial candidates from the Northeast and/or America East non-football schools to make an attractive basketball league.

This would allow an affiliation that Henfan and I have talked about often. A Big Ten type association of the premier research and primarily public institutions that play full scholarship football within the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic region. Obviously, James Madison would also be a primary candidate for this association if they opted for a continued FCS role.

[Go...gate]

Yes, the Ivy League. I'd keep it just the same. It's perhaps the only football conference (at least in DI) that's unchanged in membership over the past 50 years.

I believe that Colgate is the most-played OCC opponent of the Ivy schools (i.e. take all the Ivy OCC games and see who is the most common since 1890), so it would make some sense.

[Polywog]

Actually, I'd like to see Cal Poly and UC Davis play all sports in the Pac-10. I mean, we are already members of the Pac-10 in wrestling....could it really be that big of a stretch to move over all of the other programs? Honestly, Davis beat Stanfurd a few years back. How tough can it really be?

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

(yes I am being sarcastic)