Sun Belt vs FCS

[SoCon48]

How much of a step up would a team in the FCS' Southern Conference moving to the Sun Belt Conference be making with such a move?
Returns vs investment? Travel? Exposure? Etc.

[henfan]

How much of a step up would a team in the FCS' Southern Conference moving to the Sun Belt Conference be making with such a move?
Returns vs investment? Travel? Exposure? Etc.

Are you kidding?! The SBC, in an of itself, offers few advantages to current SoCon teams, especially with regard to ROI or travel. Teams who don't sell tickets, lose money, whether you're talking about the SoCon, SBC or some other mid-major league. Exposure- depending on your definition and the execution of the individual school in selling home games in favor of major conference road guarantees- might be marginally better. I'm not certain what advantage exposure lends, unless it's positive exposure (i.e.- winning.)

[FargoBison]

I think the Sun Belt offers little besides a shot at maybe landing a decent FBS team at home(not top tier but middle of the pack) and also maybe a better chance at possibly moving into a better conference like the CUSA. The bowl tie in for the Sun Belt is also terrible, the FCS playoffs beats the hell out of playing in front of a small crowd and tv audience in the New Orleans Bowl.

[Johnny5]

All they have to offer is the possibility of playing in the New Orleans Bowl.....or something to that effect.

[Cocky]

Quality of the games would be about the same level as ASU, Furman, and Ga Southern most years. ASU would have won the league the last two years. The exposure is a better mainly because Vegas list odds on the games.

[DFW HOYA]

All they have to offer is the possibility of playing in the New Orleans Bowl.....or something to that effect.


North Texas has upgraded its non-conf. schedule significantly since leaving the Southland and joining the Sun Belt. Schools like Texas and Oklahoma aren't looking to play many I-AA/FCS teams, but Sun Belt teams are considered more acceptable at the Big 12 schools.

North Texas plays Oklahomna, Arkansas, SMU, and Navy out of conference in 2007.

[henfan]

North Texas has upgraded its non-conf. schedule significantly since leaving the Southland and joining the Sun Belt.

Unfortunately, an upgraded noncon schedule isn't an advantage if you have to play an overwhelming majority of them on the road with little shot at winning. It may help the bottom line but won't always create the result you need to turnaround your competitive fortunes.

[Saint3333]

Attendance:
New Orleans Bowl (Troy St.)- 24.7K
Motor City Bowl (MTSU) - 54.1K

The Motor City Bowl was watched by 3 times the number of people that watching the FCS national title game.

Sun Belt Pros:
Improved schedule (opponents)
Potential to join another FBS conference

SoCon Pros:
Travel Budget
Playoffs

[KJ Eagle]

The only advantage that I see is that you have a CHANCE to play bigger name I-A schools like a poster above said. Or the CHANCE to use it as stepping stone to a bigger mid major conference in a few years. Nothing is guaranteed unless your AD has some contacts. Other than that, you are still playing conference games against teams that no one knows for the most part. There are some however that seem to be getting some decent home games with mid major schools. Nothing spectacular though.

However if you ask a lot of the guys over at TSC, they would say that the SB is a million times better than ANY FCS conference. They seem to have FBS p3nis envy if you ask me...xsmhx

[youwouldno]

The Sun Belt is a miserable conference. It defeats the whole point of going FBS because you will never get into a good bowl game.

Another thing is that being in the Sun Belt doesn't get you any of the "respect" that many FCS fans seem to crave from FBS fans. In fact being in the Sun Belt is worse because FBS fans know its the worst conference in their subdivision, whereas FCS teams are operating under different rules.

[McTailGator]

How much of a step up would a team in the FCS' Southern Conference moving to the Sun Belt Conference be making with such a move?
Returns vs investment? Travel? Exposure? Etc.


It would be a step DOWN.

Think about it. Other than Troy, the rest of the "BELCH: is at or below the 100 ranking mark.

The New Orleans Bowl (aka NO Bowl or Toilet Bowl) is the least watched bowl game of the year and what have you really won? And although they report the payout for the NO Bowl at around 750K, that is ONLY if you sell out the 15,000 to 20,000 in tickets your school is alloted for the game. NONE OF THE CURRENT BELCHERS CAN EVEN COME CLOSE TO THAT.

Their fans DO NOT travel, so you will not benefit from larger gates. Hell, they don't attend their own games.

Overall, the Belch teams have a losing record vs FCS teams, especially vs the SLC teams. McNeese is 2-0 (soon to be 3-0) vs the Belch.

If you can't go to the MAC or CUSA, your waisting time money and resources. Stay where you are.

[AppMan]

[QUOTE=McTailGator;598850]It would be a step DOWN. Their fans DO NOT travel, so you will not benefit from larger gates. Hell, they don't attend their own games.QUOTE]

As opposed to what? Western Carolina's home ave of 8,805 and #45 out of 116 schools, Wofford 8,334 #45, UTC 7,482 #52, Elon 6,671 #60, and Samford 5,320 #72.

FIU was the bottom school in the FBS with an average of 9,276, which is still better than 77 FCS schools and they would have been 5th in the SoCon. The rest of the schools in the SunBelt were La Lafayette at 14,516, FIU @ 15,110, N Texas @ 15,650, La Monroe @ 18,594, Ark State @ 19,069, Troy @ 20,810, and MTSU @ 22,837, which is better than everyone in the FCS.

With the exception of Western Carolina (and that is only for the ASU game), nobody travels in the SoCon. Well, unless you think 750 fans are a lot. ASU's crowds are almost 100% ASU people. The aspect of not being FBS that gets lost in the ASU discussion are the potential games with Marshall, ECU, and Wake Forest.

[aceinthehole]

Unfortunately, an upgraded noncon schedule isn't an advantage if you have to play an overwhelming majority of them on the road with little shot at winning. It may help the bottom line but won't always create the result you need to turnaround your competitive fortunes.

Isn't that what you ask NEC teams to do within FCS? xsmiley_wix

[aust42]

The Sunbelt is nothing more than a collection of ex 1AA teams. Their only bowl tie in is the New Orleans Bowl that pits the Sun Belt Champ against an agreed upon member of Conf USA. 2006 it was 3rd place Rice. Attendance was 24,791. I believe 2006 was the 1st year there was an at-large team (7-5 Middle TN St) picked to play in a bowl. Attendance at Sun Belt games are less than the Delaware's and Montana's etc of 1AA. Sun Belt schools attendance figures avg about 15k. Saragin ratings typically have two 1AA conferences ranked above the 1A Sunbelt. (Exception last year, only one). The Sunbelt's out of conference record is well below .500. (Educated guess). Personally I would not want to join the Sunbelt for that big 1A or FBS label. Big deal. bottom line, the qualify of football is no better than the Gateway, Big Sky, CAA, etc.

I took a beating from Western Kt fans in a previous thread for criticizing their move to the Sunbelt. Just sad to see a good quality program leave our ranks.

[youwouldno]

UL-L, Troy, etc. are not going to travel to Boone in substantial numbers. MTSU probably would bring some fans, but that's it. And who cares? App St doesn't have an attendance problem.

[JohnStOnge]

[QUOTE=McTailGator;598850]FIU was the bottom school in the FBS with an average of 9,276, which is still better than 77 FCS schools and they would have been 5th in the SoCon. The rest of the schools in the SunBelt were La Lafayette at 14,516, FIU @ 15,110, N Texas @ 15,650, La Monroe @ 18,594, Ark State @ 19,069, Troy @ 20,810, and MTSU @ 22,837, which is better than everyone in the FCS.


I think that the Sun Belt schools do average more in attendance than any I-AA conference but I also think the numbers are somewhat uncertain because they fudge on their numbers. If you ever watch a Troy home game on TV then look, note what the stadium looks like, check the stadium capacity (about 30,000), then look at the reported attendance, you'll know what I'm talking about. There are also things like Louisiana Monroe playing Arkansas at Little Rock, Arkansas and getting to call it a home game due to U of Arkansas helping them out by allowing them to do that and inflate their "home" attendance figures.

When it comes to finances, all I can say is that by every indication I've looked at (Louisiana State auditor's reports, US Dept. of Education Gender equity reports), Louisiana schools in the Southland generally have better bottom lines (revenues minus expenses) than Louisiana Sun Belt schools.

[james_lawfirm]

[QUOTE=McTailGator;598850]It would be a step DOWN. Their fans DO NOT travel, so you will not benefit from larger gates. Hell, they don't attend their own games.QUOTE]

As opposed to what? Western Carolina's home ave of 8,805 and #45 out of 116 schools, Wofford 8,334 #45, UTC 7,482 #52, Elon 6,671 #60, and Samford 5,320 #72.

FIU was the bottom school in the FBS with an average of 9,276, which is still better than 77 FCS schools and they would have been 5th in the SoCon. The rest of the schools in the SunBelt were La Lafayette at 14,516, FIU @ 15,110, N Texas @ 15,650, La Monroe @ 18,594, Ark State @ 19,069, Troy @ 20,810, and MTSU @ 22,837, which is better than everyone in the FCS.

With the exception of Western Carolina (and that is only for the ASU game), nobody travels in the SoCon. Well, unless you think 750 fans are a lot. ASU's crowds are almost 100% ASU people. The aspect of not being FBS that gets lost in the ASU discussion are the potential games with Marshall, ECU, and Wake Forest.


The fact that ASU is not playing Marshall, ECU & WFU is not lost on me. I don't want to play the first two & if WFU's coach is too chicken to play us, then fine.

I don't think avg. attendance at the various schools & their conferences makes much difference in deciding whether to move up to FBS. Until someone can show me a school, besides Marshall, that has moved up and considers their program successful, then all this talk is just a bunch of babbling.

You folks screaming to move up need a reality check. There are too many FBS schools in N.C. (5 I think - UNC, ECU, NCSU, Duke & WFU) to make it possible to successfully get good NC recruits for all of them. Plus, if attendance at ASU football games increases significantly, then the NCDOT will have to blast away a bunch of mountains to put in more highways. The infrastructure in Boone is just too limited. Can you imagine a game against UNC or NCState where the visitor brought even 10k fans to a game. Pure pandemonium & chaos. If you have been to a WFU game against UNC or NCState or even ASU for that matter, they can handle that many in Winston-Salem. Boone cannot. Period. And there is no way to make it work up there either.

Therefore, IMHO, all this talk about moving up to FBS is just a bunch of hot air. Don't waste yer breath.

[JDC325]

The only advantage that I see is that you have a CHANCE to play bigger name I-A schools like a poster above said. Or the CHANCE to use it as stepping stone to a bigger mid major conference in a few years. Nothing is guaranteed unless your AD has some contacts. Other than that, you are still playing conference games against teams that no one knows for the most part. There are some however that seem to be getting some decent home games with mid major schools. Nothing spectacular though.

However if you ask a lot of the guys over at TSC, they would say that the SB is a million times better than ANY FCS conference. They seem to have FBS p3nis envy if you ask me...xsmhx


Because this was possible without moving up.....xcoffeex

http://www.wkusports.com/images/smithrenovation/wku%20rendering.jpg

I guess OSU, Louisville, and GT are considered mid majors??? They are all coming to SunBelt HOME stadiums. Lets see Samford or OSU hmmmm...yeah no real benifit there. Your right it is just P3nis envy. xcoolx

[JDC325]

[QUOTE=AppMan;598868]

I think that the Sun Belt schools do average more in attendance than any I-AA conference but I also think the numbers are somewhat uncertain because they fudge on their numbers. There are also things like Louisiana Monroe playing Arkansas at Little Rock, Arkansas and getting to call it a home game due to U of Arkansas helping them out by allowing them to do that and inflate their "home" attendance figures.

When it comes to finances, all I can say is that by every indication I can see (Louisiana State auditor's reports, US Dept. of Education Gender equity reports), McNeese's football program typically has a better bottom line (revenues minus expenses) than either of the two Louisiana Sun Belt schools (UL Monroe and UL Lafayette).


Not true games not played at the home stadium are counted separate. Look at the very bottom. Nobody is saying the SunBelt is more than what it is but to say there are no real benifits in moving up from the SoCon is a joke especially LONG term.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

[JohnStOnge]

North Texas has upgraded its non-conf. schedule significantly since leaving the Southland and joining the Sun Belt. Schools like Texas and Oklahoma aren't looking to play many I-AA/FCS teams, but Sun Belt teams are considered more acceptable at the Big 12 schools.

North Texas plays Oklahomna, Arkansas, SMU, and Navy out of conference in 2007.

Yes, North Texas plays teams with more recognizable names. On the other hand, since the BCS started in 1998, North Texas' record against BCS league teams is 2 - 28. The average score is BCS team 35, North Texas 10. In other words, they play "name" teams a lot and get the snot beat out of them a lot.

Their record against ALL non conference I-As since the Sun Belt started in 2001 is 4 - 26. I don't have a database on that one so I can't give the average score (not without more effort than I want to expend). But, remember, we're talking about a 4 - 26 non conference I-A record by a program that won 4 of the 6 Sun Belt championships.

Yes. They've shown up a lot on scoreboards against recognizable names getting the snot knocked out of them. Like they showed up on scoreboards getting smoked by LSU by 56 -3 the week before App State lost to the Tigers by 24 - 0. If that's a good thing, then the Sun Belt is the place to be.

No doubt Sun Belt teams have played plenty of BCS league teams. In fact, since the league started in 2001, it's played 123 such games. Problem is, the Sun Belt record in those 123 games is 5 - 118, and the average score is BCS team 41, Sun Belt team 12.

So what you've basically got is publicity about how bad you are.

[JohnStOnge]

[QUOTE=JohnStOnge;598896]


Not true games not played at the home stadium are counted separate. Look at the very bottom. Nobody is saying the SunBelt is more than what it is but to say there are no real benifits in moving up from the SoCon is a joke especially LONG term.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

The post to which I responded had Louisiana Monroe's home attendance at 18,594. The NCAA link shows it at 14,306 then shows the Arkansas game with 55,420 attendance. I don't know how to reconcile that. But I can tell you that the Arkansas game did count towards ULM's attendance because I live in Louisiana and it was in the news down here. Arkansas agreed to play Louisiana Monroe in Little Rock and allow ULM to count it as a home game so that ULM wouldn't have to worry about meeting minimum I-A attendance requirements.

Just found this old USA today article:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2006-08-16-attendance-woes_x.htm

A quote:

"A game against Arkansas in Little Rock will count as a Louisiana-Monroe home game as part of a long-term contract and is expected to draw 55,000.
"

[JohnStOnge]

Your right it is just P3nis envy. xcoolx

Yes. It pretty much is. No current Southern Conference School is ever going to be in the same world as "name" major schools. To think that you ever can be is delusion.

Yes, you might have some hope at some moments in the sunlight like Boise State had. Boise State beat the Big 12 champion. Marshall also beat the Big 12 champion a few years ago. Louisiana Tech beat the SEC champion once.

But, in the long run, you'll be a wannabe. That's it.

[skinny_uncle]

See if you can get an opinion from a WKU fan in a couple of years. They will probably have some insight by then,
:D

[youwouldno]

[QUOTE=JohnStOnge;598896]


Not true games not played at the home stadium are counted separate. Look at the very bottom. Nobody is saying the SunBelt is more than what it is but to say there are no real benifits in moving up from the SoCon is a joke especially LONG term.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

If the only point to college football was attendance, you would probably be right.

But since that's not the only thing that matters, by a long shot, you are totally wrong.

[tarmac]

"Plus, if attendance at ASU football games increases significantly, then the NCDOT will have to blast away a bunch of mountains to put in more highways."


Come up Hwy 321 and you will see the NCDOT is doing just that.



"The fact that ASU is not playing Marshall, ECU & WFU is not lost on me. I don't want to play the first two..."


I don't get your thinking here. marshal and ecu have been two of our biggest rivals in the past.

[already123]

xconfusedx why are we even talking about the Sun Belt....I dont even know who their best team is.:(

The Sun Belt is probably the least competetive conference in FBS play

[skinny_uncle]

xconfusedx why are we even talking about the Sun Belt....I dont even know who their best team is.:(

The Sun Belt is probably the least competetive conference in FBS play

Troy won it last year.

[walliver]

xconfusedx why are we even talking about the Sun Belt....I dont even know who their best team is.:(

The Sun Belt is probably the least competetive conference in FBS play

Because a number of ASU and GSU fans dream of the Sunbelt. Some ASU fans see it as a stepping stone to C-USA, some GSU fans see it as a stepping stone to the SECxnodx . Some ASU and GSU fans see it as a step down.

If you want to see sparks flying, get ten GSU fans together, ask "Should GSU by I-A", step back and watch the fireworks.:D

[asufan87]

I've always maintained that moving up has little to do with football itself and more about raising the profile of a school as a whole.

Why did Wofford move UP to I-AA several years ago? Why is Presbyterian moving UP? I'm sure both would see lower costs and more wins competing in D-II. There had to be a driver other than football to led both schools to make this move. Same concept applies with schools looking to move from FCS to FBS.

[therealbigredrules]

Please take a look at the link. $5million came in on Thursday with naming rights to the stadium. This is in addition to the $37+ improvements. Indiana, Navy, Army, Iowa State will be playing us at WKU. Fun stuff going on right now.

Schedule approach for WKU - 1 money game, 1 lower level team, 8 conference games, and another mid level team from a stronger conference is the goal. So far have sold 5 times last years season tickets with a goal of 10K.

let the smack at the Sun Belt begin...


http://www.wkusports.com/

[T-Dog]

I think we should stay where we are and so should GaSo for the next while.

And I for the record, do not dream of the Sun Belt. I think if and when we can move up, we shoulds be able to raise out profile enough that we can get into a better conference than the Sun Belt.

I can see if we jump to the Sun Belt, we'll be on Thursday nights of whenever and we'll have to cater to alot of masters (TV, sponsors, etc)

We got a good thing going here. No need for us to get too big for or britches.

[AppMan]

[QUOTE=AppMan;598868]


The fact that ASU is not playing Marshall, ECU & WFU is not lost on me. I don't want to play the first two & if WFU's coach is too chicken to play us, then fine.

I don't think avg. attendance at the various schools & their conferences makes much difference in deciding whether to move up to FBS. Until someone can show me a school, besides Marshall, that has moved up and considers their program successful, then all this talk is just a bunch of babbling.

You folks screaming to move up need a reality check. There are too many FBS schools in N.C. (5 I think - UNC, ECU, NCSU, Duke & WFU) to make it possible to successfully get good NC recruits for all of them. Plus, if attendance at ASU football games increases significantly, then the NCDOT will have to blast away a bunch of mountains to put in more highways. The infrastructure in Boone is just too limited. Can you imagine a game against UNC or NCState where the visitor brought even 10k fans to a game. Pure pandemonium & chaos.
Therefore, IMHO, all this talk about moving up to FBS is just a bunch of hot air. Don't waste yer breath.

"If you have been to a WFU game against UNC or NCState or even ASU for that matter, they can handle that many in Winston-Salem."

Did you direct this to me? If so, a little background is in order. I am a 1977 ASU grad, Yosef Club member since 1978, season ticket holder since 1980, and lived in Winston Salem for 20 years. I'll let you decide for yourself if you think I've ever seen ASU play WF. Here's a hint, ASU won the first game 19-17 on a last minute FG by Gary Davis. BTW, most of the ASU / WF crowds were bigger than those vs unc-ch and nc state.

I want to make sure I'm correct on this. You honestly believe ASU can not move up since, according to you, A: There are already too many FBS programs in the state and not enough good players in the state to go around. B: The mountain landscape will be destroyed by all the additional highway construction needed to accomodate the people coming up the mountain. C: Last but not least (and my personal favorite!) "pure pandemonium & chaos" will reign over Boone due to the increased number of cars and people. Friend I gotta tell you, that is about the biggest bunch of hogwash I've ever read on this subject, ANYWHERE! No I take that back. You sound exactly like our former AD! I suppose you also believe only a select number of people should be allowed in town to enjoy ASU football. Heaven forbid a few thousand more might like to come up. I'm sure that would really upset the administration, not to mention the Boone Chamber of Commerce.

So, you don't want to play ECU and Marshall? Let me guess. They are cheaters and low-life academic schools. Funny, but you sound exactly like the William & Mary and Richmond crowd back when ASU came into the SoCon. They left the league because they didn't want to be associated with the likes of us ignorant hillbillies at ASU. To be totally honest, I am sick and tired of hearing all this snobbery coming from ASU folks about how wicked and evil ECU & Marshall are. I might understand it if we were going up against those guys in the High Q bowl or holding a debate over global warming, but this is football we are talking about.

My friend you are the one who needs the reality check. I was at ASU when ECU was the biggest game on the schedule. Later Marshall became our biggest rival and our two schools played some of the most intense games I've ever seen. As of today, July 21, 2007, Furman is the only team (sorry Western folks, but a 51-18 overall record, 20-5 the past 25 years has pretty much killed the rivalry) in this conference that gets our fans all juiced up.

BTW, ever hear of Boise State, U Conn, Central Florida, South Florida, UAB, and Nevada. Those are just a few who have made a sucessful move up. I know you probably don't think anyone in the SunBelt is better off than they were in 1-aa, so I won't even attempt to go there. Yea, yea, I know. They play for a trip to a useless bowl game and not a national championship.

Move up. You better believe it will happen and a lot sooner than you can imagine. Do you actually think ASU is building all these facilities and planning a 30,000 seat stadium in order to stay in the SoCon and FCS? Like I said earlier, YOU are the one in dire need of the reality check.

[youwouldno]

[QUOTE=james_lawfirm;598901]

"If you have been to a WFU game against UNC or NCState or even ASU for that matter, they can handle that many in Winston-Salem."

Did you direct this to me? If so, a little background is in order. I am a 1977 ASU grad, Yosef Club member since 1978, season ticket holder since 1980, and lived in Winston Salem for 20 years. I'll let you decide for yourself if you think I've ever seen ASU play WF. Here's a hint, ASU won the first game 19-17 on a last minute FG by Gary Davis. BTW, most of the ASU / WF crowds were bigger than those vs unc-ch and nc state.

I want to make sure I'm correct on this. You honestly believe ASU can not move up since, according to you, A: There are already too many FBS programs in the state and not enough good players in the state to go around. B: The mountain landscape will be destroyed by all the additional highway construction needed to accomodate the people coming up the mountain. C: Last but not least (and my personal favorite!) "pure pandemonium & chaos" will reign over Boone due to the increased number of cars and people. Friend I gotta tell you, that is about the biggest bunch of hogwash I've ever read on this subject, ANYWHERE! No I take that back. You sound exactly like our former AD! I suppose you also believe only a select number of people should be allowed in town to enjoy ASU football. Heaven forbid a few thousand more might like to come up. I'm sure that would really upset the administration, not to mention the Boone Chamber of Commerce.

So, you don't want to play ECU and Marshall? Let me guess. They are cheaters and low-life academic schools. Funny, but you sound exactly like the William & Mary and Richmond crowd back when ASU came into the SoCon. They left the league because they didn't want to be associated with the likes of us ignorant hillbillies at ASU. To be totally honest, I am sick and tired of hearing all this snobbery coming from ASU folks about how wicked and evil ECU & Marshall are. I might understand it if we were going up against those guys in the High Q bowl or holding a debate over global warming, but this is football we are talking about.

My friend you are the one who needs the reality check. I was at ASU when ECU was the biggest game on the schedule. Later Marshall became our biggest rival and our two schools played some of the most intense games I've ever seen. As of today, July 21, 2007, Furman is the only team (sorry Western folks, but a 51-18 overall record, 20-5 the past 25 years has pretty much killed the rivalry) in this conference that gets our fans all juiced up.

BTW, ever hear of Boise State, U Conn, Central Florida, South Florida, UAB, and Nevada. Those are just a few who have made a sucessful move up. I know you probably don't think anyone in the SunBelt is better off than they were in 1-aa, so I won't even attempt to go there. Yea, yea, I know. They play for a trip to a useless bowl game and not a national championship.

Move up. You better believe it will happen and a lot sooner than you can imagine. Do you actually think ASU is building all these facilities and planning a 30,000 seat stadium in order to stay in the SoCon and FCS? Like I said earlier, YOU are the one in dire need of the reality check.

You note but fail to address the fact that North Carolina has a large number of FBS programs. UConn doesn't count as an example because they had a contractual right to play football in the Big East. Florida is one of the most prolific states in terms of producing college football players, but back in the day only had 2 FBS programs. UCF and USF-- both of which are huge, by the way-- took advantage of the landscape. FAU and FIU were late to the party and thus didn't get into decent conferences, and do not have bright futures. The Western schools are a bad comparison because the context is simply different; Idaho did not have a real structural advantage over Boise (and started in I-AA as well). Nevada is the flagship university of a medium-sized, and rapidly growing, state.

There aren't just 5 FBS programs in NC, but 4 of them are in a major conference and the other 1 is in a mid-major conference, whereas the Sun Belt is essentially low-major by FBS standards. So the ultimate question is, what should be the goal of a football program?

It's important to start with the understanding that App St will never win an FBS 'championship.' And by never, I mean literally never. Absolute zero chance. That means that, at best, App St will be a second-tier program, because they have nothing in common with Florida, Texas, Southern Cal, Notre Dame, and so on. App St does have a lot in common with fellow successful FCS programs (Montana, Delaware, etc.).

It ultimately comes down to the classic big fish/small pond vs. small fish/big pond. App St is a big fish in the FCS pond, but if it jumps over to the FBS pond, will be marginal at best, dwarfed by established, huge fish that App can never, ever hope to overcome, even with better fish food ($$$).

[asufan87]

[QUOTE=AppMan;599055]

You note but fail to address the fact that North Carolina has a large number of FBS programs.


The utlimate question is, what should be the goal of a football program?



What does the number of FBS schools in the state have to do with anything? First, none of the North Carolina's FBS schools recruit North Carolina exclusively. Neither does ASU. Some of our newest players are coming in from places as far north as New Jersey and as far west as Texas. Second, ASU's primary fan base is made up of ASU grads of which there are close to 90,000 and the majority live in the region. It's not like we have to go steal fans from other FBS schools. We've got fertile ground to cultivate as far as a fan base is concerned. Third, look at the population growth happening in North Carolina. Since 2000, Charlotte's population has seen about a 20% increase. The Raleigh Durham area's growth in population is even higher. Over 100,000 people from New York state alone are moving to the Charlotte region (Mecklenburg and surrounding counties) each year. That's why Charlotte schools are crying for $600+ million in bond money to build new schools. Your excuse of the state not being able to handle another FBS program just doesn't hold water.

Second, the ultimate goal of college football program is to serve as a public relations tool for the school. Many colleges do just fine without a program altogether. Those that sponsor football realize that it brings value in the form of garnering attention for the school and promoting a continued connection with alumni and can assist in fund raising for the school as a whole. You're right, ASU probably has close to a zero percent chance of winning a BCS championship. But if a move helps aid and increase the profile and name recognition of the university, an increase in student applications, greater attendance for games, and leads to greater private giving to the university as all areas, then I'd have to say the move was successful as it accomplished the purpose for which it exists. If it's only about W's and L's and championships and nothing else, then there's no need for college football. The NFL has that covered.

[GGASU]

[QUOTE=AppMan;599055]


It's important to start with the understanding that App St will never win an FBS 'championship.' And by never, I mean literally never. Absolute zero chance. That means that, at best, App St will be a second-tier program, because they have nothing in common with Florida, Texas, Southern Cal, Notre Dame, and so on. App St does have a lot in common with fellow successful FCS programs (Montana, Delaware, etc.).

($$$).

That is the problem I have always had with moving up to FBS.

Without a playoff system, it is the only division of football from grade school to pro that a team doesn't have the oppurtunity to win a championship.

The goal of every other college sport is to win your conference and go on to the NCAA playoffs....But in the FBS there are at least 60 teams that even if they went undefeated would not play for a national title. THAT IS INSANE.

Even when they go to a 4 or 8 team playoff in the next few years, it will still be next to impossible to get a bid from a non-power conference.

[WUTNDITWAA]

[QUOTE=youwouldno;599075]

That is the problem I have always had with moving up to FBS.

Without a playoff system, it is the only division of football from grade school to pro that a team doesn't have the oppurtunity to win a championship.

The goal of every other college sport is to win your conference and go on to the NCAA playoffs....But in the FBS there are at least 60 teams that even if they went undefeated would not play for a national title. THAT IS INSANE.

Even when they go to a 4 or 8 team playoff in the next few years, it will still be next to impossible to get a bid from a non-power conference.


That's the thing though. It's not about championships. Do you honestly think that Presbyterian moved up to FCS for a shot at the championship? Last I checked only 1 private school (Furman) has ever won a I-AA/FCS title. And not that many have ever played for the title. Using that logic, every private school in this subdivision should drop to Division II.

[BearsCountry]

If App State and Georgia Southern think they are so much better and would destroy all the Sun Belt schools, I say put your money were your mouth is.

[Saint3333]

[QUOTE=AppMan;599055]

It's important to start with the understanding that App St will never win an FBS 'championship.' And by never, I mean literally never. Absolute zero chance. That means that, at best, App St will be a second-tier program, because they have nothing in common with Florida, Texas, Southern Cal, Notre Dame, and so on. App St does have a lot in common with fellow successful FCS programs (Montana, Delaware, etc.).

It ultimately comes down to the classic big fish/small pond vs. small fish/big pond. App St is a big fish in the FCS pond, but if it jumps over to the FBS pond, will be marginal at best, dwarfed by established, huge fish that App can never, ever hope to overcome, even with better fish food ($$$).

You're right ASU doesn't have that much in common with the Texas and Floridas of the world, but they do have more in common with schools like in CUSA, MAC, and other "mid-major" FBS conferences than we do with Wofford, Elon, Samford, and even Furman (I do enjoy the rivalry w/ Furman don't get me wrong). If the SoCon had added schools like EKU and JSU instead of Elon and Samford I believe the "move FBS" crowd at ASU wouldn't be as vocal.

After all is said and done ASU will still be in the FCS through the 2012 season, but things are in motion to position ourselves to make the move if an opportunity arises.

[The Moody1]

[QUOTE=AppMan;598868]


The fact that ASU is not playing Marshall, ECU & WFU is not lost on me. I don't want to play the first two & if WFU's coach is too chicken to play us, then fine.

I don't think avg. attendance at the various schools & their conferences makes much difference in deciding whether to move up to FBS. Until someone can show me a school, besides Marshall, that has moved up and considers their program successful, then all this talk is just a bunch of babbling.

You folks screaming to move up need a reality check. There are too many FBS schools in N.C. (5 I think - UNC, ECU, NCSU, Duke & WFU) to make it possible to successfully get good NC recruits for all of them. Plus, if attendance at ASU football games increases significantly, then the NCDOT will have to blast away a bunch of mountains to put in more highways. The infrastructure in Boone is just too limited. Can you imagine a game against UNC or NCState where the visitor brought even 10k fans to a game. Pure pandemonium & chaos. If you have been to a WFU game against UNC or NCState or even ASU for that matter, they can handle that many in Winston-Salem. Boone cannot. Period. And there is no way to make it work up there either.

Therefore, IMHO, all this talk about moving up to FBS is just a bunch of hot air. Don't waste yer breath.


We will move up within the next ten years. Our AD told me to my face that he thought we would move up within the next five years. Maybe you need a reality check.

[Ronbo]

The Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC need to start allowing home and homes with the top FCS teams. Even if it means a 2 for 1 for FCS teams with smaller attendance. With Montana, we can't afford a $200,000 game with a Sun Belt school, we net twice that at home. We would need a home and home at the minimum to play these schools. Otherwise don't look for us to be playing any of the Mid Majors any time soon.

[Saint3333]

The Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC need to start allowing home and homes with the top FCS teams. Even if it means a 2 for 1 for FCS teams with smaller attendance. With Montana, we can't afford a $200,000 game with a Sun Belt school, we net twice that at home. We would need a home and home at the minimum to play these schools. Otherwise don't look for us to be playing any of the Mid Majors any time soon.

Why would they do that? They can get as many one for none deals now with 90% of the FCS as the $200K is more than these schools take in. Besides they don't want to risk losing to a FCS team.

Giving Montana, ASU, etc. a 2-1 deal is a lose-lose situation for them. They'll survive playing one home game against the next tier of FCS programs, one ACC/CUSA/Big 12 game at home and their conference schedule every year.

[Appattk]

The Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC need to start allowing home and homes with the top FCS teams. Even if it means a 2 for 1 for FCS teams with smaller attendance. With Montana, we can't afford a $200,000 game with a Sun Belt school, we net twice that at home. We would need a home and home at the minimum to play these schools. Otherwise don't look for us to be playing any of the Mid Majors any time soon.


Those mid-majors don't want to play top FCS schools. They risk too much! When they lose, it puts yet another L in their total column making it even harder to get into a prestigious Toilet Bowl game. They want a lackey to beat up on so they are guarenteed a win! Schools like Montana and ASU are going to find it increasingly hard to find a Mid-Major FBS school to play due to that fact.

The greed and attraction of their post-season fiasco keeps them from giving their fans a great game!

[WUTNDITWAA]

Those mid-majors don't want to play top FCS schools. They risk too much! When they lose, it puts yet another L in their total column making it even harder to get into a prestigious Toilet Bowl game. They want a lackey to beat up on so they are guarenteed a win! Schools like Montana and ASU are going to find it increasingly hard to find a Mid-Major FBS school to play due to that fact.

The greed and attraction of their post-season fiasco keeps them from giving their fans a great game!

The same can be said about the top FCS programs. Hence ASU's scheduling problems the last few years.xrulesx

[JohnStOnge]

BTW, ever hear of Boise State, U Conn, Central Florida, South Florida, UAB, and Nevada. Those are just a few who have made a sucessful move up. .

Depends on what you mean by "successful." If "successful" is defined as being able to consistently field teams that win more than they lost against the mainstream of the FBS (i.e., the BCS leagues), none of the programs you cite have achieved that. UConn and South Florida have a shot because they are in a BCS league now. But getting into a BCS league is a very long shot.

I concede that Boise State got an awful lot of publicity from its win over Oklahoma. But the Broncos are 4 - 11 against BCS league schools since the start of the BCS in 1998. They're 4 - 5 over the past five seasons because they did have an aberrantly successful season in 2006 so as to go 2 - 0.

Bottom line is that Boise State was once in a subdivision in which it could reasonably expect a chance to compete to be one of the best programs in the subdivision. Now, it's not. It's program will perpetually be a wannabe program, with all of its focus on beating a "Big Boy" from time to time. But it is not a "Big Boy" itself as a program; nor will it ever be.

Same with App State. If your wish is to choose the level of play at which App State can expect to compete for being among the best, FCS is it.

[Saint3333]

If the goal is to win national championships then maybe FCS programs should drop down to Div. 2 for basketball, baseball, etc. If the goal is to field the best possible team then maybe they should strive to move up.

Why did Presby recently move up? They will likely never play for the FCS national championship.

It's not about being the best in FBS, it's about improving the program and fielding the best possible team.

[youwouldno]

Your excuse of the state not being able to handle another FBS program just doesn't hold water.

Second, the ultimate goal of college football program is to serve as a public relations tool for the school. Many colleges do just fine without a program altogether. Those that sponsor football realize that it brings value in the form of garnering attention for the school and promoting a continued connection with alumni and can assist in fund raising for the school as a whole. You're right, ASU probably has close to a zero percent chance of winning a BCS championship. But if a move helps aid and increase the profile and name recognition of the university, an increase in student applications, greater attendance for games, and leads to greater private giving to the university as all areas, then I'd have to say the move was successful as it accomplished the purpose for which it exists. If it's only about W's and L's and championships and nothing else, then there's no need for college football. The NFL has that covered.

First, the number of FBS programs in a state does matter. It is very difficult to have success without a strong in-state base of talent. There's a reason Florida, Florida State, Texas, Cal, Southern Cal, Ohio State, and so on, are dominant.

Second, that's a pretty depressing way to look at college football. That certainly isn't why football rose to prominence. And I question whether private giving to academic pursuits would increase, just as large increases would be needed in athletic donations.

[youwouldno]

If the goal is to win national championships then maybe FCS programs should drop down to Div. 2 for basketball, baseball, etc. If the goal is to field the best possible team then maybe they should strive to move up.

Why did Presby recently move up? They will likely never play for the FCS national championship.

It's not about being the best in FBS, it's about improving the program and fielding the best possible team.

Well there's an obvious advantage to being D-I. But both FBS and FCS are D-I, so football is different from other sports. In basketball, upsets happen all the time... a mid-major team probably can't win it all, but there have been GMU and SIU recently who made a huge impact.

It's not just that App St has a zero chance of winning the BCS title. The odds of App St ever appearing in a BCS bowl is extremely low, probably no better than 1%.

[JohnStOnge]

If the goal is to win national championships then maybe FCS programs should drop down to Div. 2 for basketball, baseball, etc. If the goal is to field the best possible team then maybe they should strive to move up.

Why did Presby recently move up? They will likely never play for the FCS national championship.

It's not about being the best in FBS, it's about improving the program and fielding the best possible team.

Yes, it depends on what you want. You should be able to fashion a better team most years in absolute terms by being in FBS because you have more scholarships and being in FBS...even low level FBS...tends to confer a recruiting advantage over FCS schools.

But you're probably going to be worse...far worse...year in and year out in terms of how good you are relative to the level at which you play.

I don't know where Presby was before it moved up but moving from Division II to FCS is not like moving from FCS to FBS. A strong Division II program moving to FCS and becoming one of the top programs in its new Division, with a realistic aspiration to compete for national championships, is plausible. All you have to do is look at North Dakota State right now to see that. And you can recall that wins by top Division II teams over top I-AA teams were not uncommon. Heck, I think most recent D II champions would've competed well in the I-AA playoffs, sometimes with a shot to win.

You aren't going to see any FCS move into FBS and immediately be good enough as a program to have realistic aspiration to compete for a national title. In fact, there's no indication that any would ever reach that level.

[JohnStOnge]

It's not just that App St has a zero chance of winning the BCS title. The odds of App St ever appearing in a BCS bowl is extremely low, probably no better than 1%.

It's more possible now than it was at one time because the BCS, under pressure, added a BCS bowl specifically for the purpose of making sure to get a non BCS teams in each time.

[youwouldno]

It's more possible now than it was at one time because the BCS, under pressure, added a BCS bowl specifically for the purpose of making sure to get a non BCS teams in each time.

True, but it's still impossible from the Sun Belt and even if App were to make C-USA, I'm skeptical they could dominate that conference.

[McTailGator]

[QUOTE=McTailGator;598850]It would be a step DOWN. Their fans DO NOT travel, so you will not benefit from larger gates. Hell, they don't attend their own games.QUOTE]

As opposed to what? Western Carolina's home ave of 8,805 and #45 out of 116 schools, Wofford 8,334 #45, UTC 7,482 #52, Elon 6,671 #60, and Samford 5,320 #72.

FIU was the bottom school in the FBS with an average of 9,276, which is still better than 77 FCS schools and they would have been 5th in the SoCon. The rest of the schools in the SunBelt were La Lafayette at 14,516, FIU @ 15,110, N Texas @ 15,650, La Monroe @ 18,594, Ark State @ 19,069, Troy @ 20,810, and MTSU @ 22,837, which is better than everyone in the FCS.

With the exception of Western Carolina (and that is only for the ASU game), nobody travels in the SoCon. Well, unless you think 750 fans are a lot. ASU's crowds are almost 100% ASU people. The aspect of not being FBS that gets lost in the ASU discussion are the potential games with Marshall, ECU, and Wake Forest.


Troy and Middle are probably accurate, But I can assure you that the ULX's are totally inflated.

And again, they DO NOT travel, so your attendance will not be any better than it is now. I'd think that ASU's ground is their to see ASU, no matter who the opponent. Like most McNeese fans.

Belchers are there to see BIG TIME football, and their own teams don't do it for them. Now I can see how the SC has gone down since losing Marshall, and letting in a couple of the schools you let in. But the Belch isn't the answer. Hold out for a better conference, or start up a new one.

[McTailGator]

[QUOTE=AppMan;598868]


The fact that ASU is not playing Marshall, ECU & WFU is not lost on me. I don't want to play the first two & if WFU's coach is too chicken to play us, then fine.

I don't think avg. attendance at the various schools & their conferences makes much difference in deciding whether to move up to FBS. Until someone can show me a school, besides Marshall, that has moved up and considers their program successful, then all this talk is just a bunch of babbling.

You folks screaming to move up need a reality check. There are too many FBS schools in N.C. (5 I think - UNC, ECU, NCSU, Duke & WFU) to make it possible to successfully get good NC recruits for all of them. Plus, if attendance at ASU football games increases significantly, then the NCDOT will have to blast away a bunch of mountains to put in more highways. The infrastructure in Boone is just too limited. Can you imagine a game against UNC or NCState where the visitor brought even 10k fans to a game. Pure pandemonium & chaos. If you have been to a WFU game against UNC or NCState or even ASU for that matter, they can handle that many in Winston-Salem. Boone cannot. Period. And there is no way to make it work up there either.

Therefore, IMHO, all this talk about moving up to FBS is just a bunch of hot air. Don't waste yer breath.


A move to FBS can be a good one, but one should avoid a move to a bad neigborhood. The Belch is nothing more than a Trailer Park with a bad Bowl tie in.

Hold out for an opening in a better neighborhood.

[McTailGator]

xconfusedx why are we even talking about the Sun Belt....I dont even know who their best team is.:(

The Sun Belt is probably the least competetive conference in FBS play


No need to put the word PROBABLY in there.

THEY ARE THE LEAST COMPETETIVE BY FAR.

[bandit]

The Sun Belt is improving. They had a winning record against CUSA last year, as I recall.

That being said, I can't imagine ASU fans getting excited over playing Sun Belt teams. Games against the likes of FAU, FIU, ULL and ULM don't scream "rivalry" to ASU.

Perhaps the smarter way would be a group of strong FCS schools - ASU, Ga Southern, Delaware and JMU at the core - making the move together and putting the basis of a new FBS league together. You might be able to peel off the more desirable Sun Belt teams - Troy, Mid Tenn State and WKU.

[tarmac]

What does it take to start a new FBS conference besides having schools willing to try it?

[813Jag]

USF was independent for couple of years and got an invite to CUSA. Although being an indepent is murder, that may be better than the Sun Belt. xconfusedx Although going 9-2 and not going to a bowl game can be discouraging.

[JohnStOnge]

The Sun Belt is improving. They had a winning record against CUSA last year, as I recall.

Yes, the Sun Belt did inexplicably have a winning record (4 - 2 by my count) against CUSA last season. Wierdly, ULL beat CUSA champion Houston. Of course, 3-9 UAB also beat SB champion Troy 21-3.

But it was still clearly the weakest league by far. It had losing records against every other I-A conference it played...including 1 - 3 vs. the MAC. It was 6 - 31 in non conference play overall. It's champion was 1 - 4.

And that brings up a stat that really puts the Sun Belt into perspective. Since the league started in 2001, it's New Orleans Bowl representatives...its champions...are a composite 4 - 26 against I-As from other leagues.

I think the Sun Belt is a league of teams primarily composed of players that would've been I-AA (now FCS) players before the Sun Belt teams left I-AA. It just changed the pecking order some because, as much as I dislike it, just being able to say "D1," now meaning "FCS," gives a recruiter an advantage over FCS teams. So they can get the better players from the pool of what is really generally FCS-level recruits.

Sun Belt teamsare not going to really compete for recruits with any of the leagues around them (SEC, Big 12, Big 10, Big East, CUSA, WAC, MAC) with the possible exception of the MAC. And the only team they have that's close to the MAC footprint is Middle Tennessee.

[Killtoppers90]

I dont know what all the chatter is about. There are MAYBE 5 teams in all of FCS that could beat a comparable SBC school head to head.

[Cocky]

[QUOTE=AppMan;598868]


Troy and Middle are probably accurate, But I can assure you that the ULX's are totally inflated.

And again, they DO NOT travel, so your attendance will not be any better than it is now. I'd think that ASU's ground is their to see ASU, no matter who the opponent. Like most McNeese fans.

Belchers are there to see BIG TIME football, and their own teams don't do it for them. Now I can see how the SC has gone down since losing Marshall, and letting in a couple of the schools you let in. But the Belch isn't the answer. Hold out for a better conference, or start up a new one.

Can't answer for Middle, but Troy doesn't avg 20,000 people in seats maybe sold tickets.

[JohnStOnge]

I dont know what all the chatter is about. There are MAYBE 5 teams in all of FCS that could beat a comparable SBC school head to head.

Then why does the Sun Belt, since it's inception, have an 6 - 8 record against the nearby Southland?

It does have a 23-16 record against all I-AAs...but that's not exactly dominant; especially when the fact that almost all the games were played at Sun Belt home fields is considered. And the Sun Belt is 2 - 8 against I-AA playoff teams.

In the vein of having possibly improved during 2006, the Sun Belt did go 5 - 0 against I-AAs last season. But the wins came over teams that finished 71st (3-8 Southern Utah), 76th (6-5 Alcorn State), 80th (4-7 Tenn. Tech), 84th (5-6 Alabama State), and 119th (0-11 NC A&T) in the final FCS GPI ratings.

I think you are over estimating the Sun Belt. With respect to the "5 teams belief:"

I think FCS conference champs App State, UMass, Montana, and North Dakota State would all certainly have had legitimate shots to beat Troy if they'd played them.

I think FCS second place teams James Madison, Furman, Illinois State and Portland State would all have had legitimate shots to beat second place Middle Tennessee.

I think FCS third place teams Montana State, Wofford, New Hampshire, Cal Poly, and Northern Iowa would all have had legitimate shots to beat third place Arkansas State.

I could go on, but you see where I'm going. There were a lot more than 5 teams in I-AA/FCS last season that "could" have beaten comparable teams from the Sun Belt. And I think that if you look up the results of how the I-AA/FCS teams listed above did against I-A competition you can see that it's not at all unreasonable to think they'd have had legitimate shots to beat the comparable Sun Belt teams listed.

Like, if New Hampshire could win 34 - 17 at Northwestern, I don't think beating Arkansas State takes a stretch of the imagination. Or if UMass could lose by only 1 to Navy, beating Troy shouldn't be impossible. And if Illinois State could dominate the stats but lose by 1 at Kansas State and Portland State could win by 11 at New Mexico, I don't think Middle Tennessee would strike fear into Redbird or Viking hearts.

Things might change in the future. But, so far, the Sun Belt hasn't been unlike a FCS league in caliber. In fact, most years, I think that the top I-AA/FCS league (whichever it was for a particular year) was stronger top to bottom than the Sun Belt was.

[galojay]

The Sun Belt is a 7-year-old conference with lots of upstart schools. You are correct, it's successes have been limited. But, last season was a great improvement. Given time, I think it will be a decent conference. No, they aren't sending anyone to an Orange Bowl, but they will have some successes.

But, again, it is just 7-years-old.

[JohnStOnge]

Killtopper, I just thought of a good historical story one might consider in wondering whether or not FCS teams "could" beat Sun Belt teams in comparable positions in league standings.

In 2005, Louisiana Monroe finished in a three way tie for the Sun Belt title with Louisiana Lafayette and Arkansas State a 5-2 in Sun Belt Play. The (then) Indians beat New Orleans Bowl participant Arkansas State on the road but lost a tiebreaker when they dropped their final game of the season at home to Louisiana Lafayette.

Louisiana Monroe was beaten at home that year by Northwestern State, a team that finished tied with McNeese for third place in the Southland at 3-3 in league play.

That year, I think the Southland was actually stronger than the Sun Belt. I think both Texas State and Nicholls State would've been favored over anybody the Sun Belt had. And there's that thing mentioned above with the third place Southland team beating a team that tied for the Sun Belt title (on the road, I might add).

Last year, the Sun Belt was stronger as the Southland was pretty down. Over all years, the Sun Belt's probably been a little stronger. But not by much. And the Southland is probably, year in and year out, the 4th or 5th best I-AA/FCS conference.

Think about that. The 4th or 5th best I-AA/FCS conference has an 8-6 record against the Sun Belt. What would it be like if they'd have been playing that many games against the A-10 or your own former Gateway?

Pretty sobering for people who think the Sun Belt is distinctly different from FCS in caliber.

[JohnStOnge]

[QUOTE=McTailGator;599344]

Can't answer for Middle, but Troy doesn't avg 20,000 people in seats maybe sold tickets.

That's one of the most obvious situations of fudging in the football world. Just watch a Troy conference game on TV, note the stadium size (about 30 K), then read the attendance figure reported the next day. It's hilarious.

I do think that, due to pressure to maintain minimum attendance in order to remain in FBS, lower level I-A/FBS schools inflate their attendance figures a whole lot more than I-AA/FCS schools do. It'd be tough to quantify it because nobody knows what actual attendance is. But I think it's pretty obvious when you watch games of teams like ULM, Troy, and Louisiana Tech on TV then look at the reported attendance figures.

[galojay]

[QUOTE=Cocky;599476]

That's one of the most obvious situations of fudging in the football world. Just watch a Troy conference game on TV, note the stadium size (about 30 K), then read the attendance figure reported the next day. It's hilarious.

I do think that, due to pressure to maintain minimum attendance in order to remain in FBS, lower level I-A/FBS schools inflate their attendance figures a whole lot more than I-AA/FCS schools do. It'd be tough to quantify it because nobody knows what actual attendance is. But I think it's pretty obvious when you watch games of teams like ULM, Troy, and Louisiana Tech on TV then look at the reported attendance figures.

Schools are allowed to include their season tickets in their numbers. That is a "sold" seat. That usually explains the differences.

[AppMan]

Yes. It pretty much is. No current Southern Conference School is ever going to be in the same world as "name" major schools. To think that you ever can be is delusion.

Yes, you might have some hope at some moments in the sunlight like Boise State had. Boise State beat the Big 12 champion. Marshall also beat the Big 12 champion a few years ago. Louisiana Tech beat the SEC champion once.

But, in the long run, you'll be a wannabe. That's it.

No one is delusional. The biggest misconception by most people outside the ongoing FBS arguement at ASU is those who support the move believe Mountaineer Football is destined for a BCS conference. I've yet to hear a single person suggest anything remotely close that idea. Most only want to see ASU compete with the mid level FBS schools, or like we like to say, "to compete with like minded schools." Another issue nobody ever talks about is how the rest of our athletic program would benefit from the move. I simply don't understand why people feel compelled to demean the idea by tossing words like "wannabe" around.

One very hypocritical aspect to most of the FCS crowd is when a D-II school moves up to the FCS the loyalists heap tons of praise on them for bettering their program. However, when an existing FCS program mentions a similar move to the FBS they are idiots. Go figure.

[AppMan]

"It's important to start with the understanding that App St will never win an FBS 'championship.' And by never, I mean literally never. Absolute zero chance. That means that, at best, App St will be a second-tier program, because they have nothing in common with Florida, Texas, Southern Cal, Notre Dame, and so on. App St does have a lot in common with fellow successful FCS programs (Montana, Delaware, etc.)."

How much of a chance does ASU have of winning a national championships in basketball, baseball, track & field, tennis, golf, ect? I'd say pretty much the same as winning one in football. However, I don't see any real ground swell to drop down to D-II where we would have a far better chance of winning national championships in those sports. What's wrong with being a second-tier program in the top classification? If the games are exciting and our fans and students enjoy game days in Boone, what's the big deal? Interesting how you use Nevada, U Conn, Idaho and others as being unique situations we don't actually have anything in common with simply because they are the major state schools for their states. Then you turn right around and say how much we have in common with flag ship schools like Montana and Delaware.

"It ultimately comes down to the classic big fish/small pond vs. small fish/big pond. App St is a big fish in the FCS pond, but if it jumps over to the FBS pond, will be marginal at best, dwarfed by established, huge fish that App can never, ever hope to overcome, even with better fish food ($$$)."

So, is this all just about being a big fish? All this time I thought is was about giving your students and alumni something to get excited about. Something to help get people back on campus, help your university gain a measure of exposure, and be associated with schools thay have much in common with. I don't care how big of a fish we are, all I know is right now we are lumped in with a bunch of schools (NOT ALL) who have totally different vision forathletics than ASU.

[AppMan]

If App State and Georgia Southern think they are so much better and would destroy all the Sun Belt schools, I say put your money were your mouth is.

Please show me one post by a GSU or ASU fan who indicated either team "would destroy all the SunBelt schools." If you want to jump into the debate fine, but don't stoop to making statements that are totally off base and untrue.

[AppMan]

Perhaps the smarter way would be a group of strong FCS schools - ASU, Ga Southern, Delaware and JMU at the core - making the move together and putting the basis of a new FBS league together. You might be able to peel off the more desirable Sun Belt teams - Troy, Mid Tenn State and WKU.

That would be an option I would like to see explored. Although Delaware may be a little too far north a group that included ASU, GSU, JMU, MTSU, WKU, and Troy would be a great core group.

[Killtoppers90]

That would be an option I would like to see explored. Although Delaware may be a little too far north a group that included ASU, GSU, JMU, MTSU, WKU, and Troy would be a great core group.

Not a bad group of teams you have there AppMan! Sounds very formidable! I'd like to see EKU in that bunch too!

[McTailGator]

The Sunbelt is nothing more than a collection of ex 1AA teams. Their only bowl tie in is the New Orleans Bowl that pits the Sun Belt Champ against an agreed upon member of Conf USA. 2006 it was 3rd place Rice. Attendance was 24,791. I believe 2006 was the 1st year there was an at-large team (7-5 Middle TN St) picked to play in a bowl. Attendance at Sun Belt games are less than the Delaware's and Montana's etc of 1AA. Sun Belt schools attendance figures avg about 15k. Saragin ratings typically have two 1AA conferences ranked above the 1A Sunbelt. (Exception last year, only one). The Sunbelt's out of conference record is well below .500. (Educated guess). Personally I would not want to join the Sunbelt for that big 1A or FBS label. Big deal. bottom line, the qualify of football is no better than the Gateway, Big Sky, CAA, etc.

I took a beating from Western Kt fans in a previous thread for criticizing their move to the Sunbelt. Just sad to see a good quality program leave our ranks.

WKU is already in the Belch for Basketball, and maybe other olympic sports, so their move to FBS is really not a big deal. While I think the Gateway is a MUCH tougher football conference, I think it makes financial since for WKY to fully align them selves with their other sports.

I think WKU fans will tell you that they are a "Basketball" first school. Thier other sports should all be in the Belch too IMO.

[McTailGator]

[QUOTE=AppMan;598868]


The fact that ASU is not playing Marshall, ECU & WFU is not lost on me. I don't want to play the first two & if WFU's coach is too chicken to play us, then fine.

I don't think avg. attendance at the various schools & their conferences makes much difference in deciding whether to move up to FBS. Until someone can show me a school, besides Marshall, that has moved up and considers their program successful, then all this talk is just a bunch of babbling.

You folks screaming to move up need a reality check. There are too many FBS schools in N.C. (5 I think - UNC, ECU, NCSU, Duke & WFU) to make it possible to successfully get good NC recruits for all of them. Plus, if attendance at ASU football games increases significantly, then the NCDOT will have to blast away a bunch of mountains to put in more highways. The infrastructure in Boone is just too limited. Can you imagine a game against UNC or NCState where the visitor brought even 10k fans to a game. Pure pandemonium & chaos. If you have been to a WFU game against UNC or NCState or even ASU for that matter, they can handle that many in Winston-Salem. Boone cannot. Period. And there is no way to make it work up there either.

Therefore, IMHO, all this talk about moving up to FBS is just a bunch of hot air. Don't waste yer breath.

I hope you were generalizing and not thinking that I'm pro-move up.

I'm not.

I have always said that unless a school can afford a $20 Million PLUS athletic budget, they have NO BUSINESS playing in the the FBS.

I have told UL-LAUGHayette fans for years when they have asked why McNeese doesn't join them in FBS, that McNeese, our fans, and our budget knows where we belong. And that is as an FCS school. But because WE know it, and the fact that ULaughs budget is only about a million more than McNeese's, we also know where THEY belong, and it ain't as an FBS school. Same with UL-MOANroe. They both belong in the Southland.

[McTailGator]

The Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC need to start allowing home and homes with the top FCS teams. Even if it means a 2 for 1 for FCS teams with smaller attendance. With Montana, we can't afford a $200,000 game with a Sun Belt school, we net twice that at home. We would need a home and home at the minimum to play these schools. Otherwise don't look for us to be playing any of the Mid Majors any time soon.


I personnally think the NCAA should not allow conferences to make a rule that says that one school CAN NOT go play a game at another NCAA member school.

[SU Jag]

The Sunbelt is a joke of a football conference. They actually have the nerve to call it the "big time" WTF!?!?!?!?!

[McTailGator]

Why would they do that? They can get as many one for none deals now with 90% of the FCS as the $200K is more than these schools take in. Besides they don't want to risk losing to a FCS team.

Giving Montana, ASU, etc. a 2-1 deal is a lose-lose situation for them. They'll survive playing one home game against the next tier of FCS programs, one ACC/CUSA/Big 12 game at home and their conference schedule every year.


BUT, SunBelch schools can not afford $200K payouts. They typically only payout anywhere from $75,000 to $90,000, which is about what they get from season tickets alone. This is basically what UL-Lafayette offers as a gurantee.

McNeese is getting a $110,000 guarantee, PLUS 50% of the first 5,000 tickets we sell from our own box office. They know we will bring in not only our fans, but their own as well, because many of their fans miss our old rivalry, so we can make $150,000 from this game. Still not alot, but we already have 6 home games, so this is above and beyond what we would clear from a home and home with a Portland St. Georgia Southern, Youngstown, etc. considering the cost of an Air Charter, hotels, and ground transportation. All the UL-Lafayette game will cost us are a couple of charter busses.

McNeese will probably bring 8 to 10,000 or so to this game in Lafayette (only 75 miles away). If UL-Lafayette wants to see us again so they can help meet their 15,000 attendance requirement, I say we tell them that we not only want the 110K guarantee, but we what a percentage from ALL the tickets we sale in LC. Of course after we whip their @$$es, they will get on the phone to Southern or Grambling so they can get the crowd AND the win.

[SU Jag]

BUT, SunBelch schools can not afford $200K payouts. They typically only payout anywhere from $75,000 to $90,000, which is about what they get from season tickets alone. This is basically what UL-Lafayette offers as a gurantee.

McNeese is getting a $110,000 guarantee, PLUS 50% of the first 5,000 tickets we sell from our own box office. They know we will bring in not only our fans, but their own as well, because many of their fans miss our old rivalry, so we can make $150,000 from this game. Still not alot, but we already have 6 home games, so this is above and beyond what we would clear from a home and home with a Portland St. Georgia Southern, Youngstown, etc. considering the cost of an Air Charter, hotels, and ground transportation. All the UL-Lafayette game will cost us are a couple of charter busses.

McNeese will probably bring 8 to 10,000 or so to this game in Lafayette (only 75 miles away). If UL-Lafayette wants to see us again so they can help meet their 15,000 attendance requirement, I say we tell them that we not only want the 110K guarantee, but we what a percentage from ALL the tickets we sale in LC. Of course after we whip their @$$es, they will get on the phone to Southern or Grambling so they can get the crowd AND the win.


ULL nor UL Monroe hasnt called Southern for anything. UL Monroe is playing Grambling this year but thats the first time sincexconfusedx lets just say its been a long time.

[Killtoppers90]

The Sunbelt is a joke of a football conference. They actually have the nerve to call it the "big time" WTF!?!?!?!?!

And Southern is SUCH a world-beater?xcoffeex

[JohnStOnge]

The Sunbelt is a joke of a football conference. They actually have the nerve to call it the "big time" WTF!?!?!?!?!

See? We can agree on something.

[SU Jag]

And Southern is SUCH a world-beater?xcoffeex


Never claimed that we were my good man, here our own state we get more attention and media coverage than UL-Monroe and UL-Laf, being in the Sun belt means nothing. Its the worst conference in the so callled "big time".

[JohnStOnge]

One very hypocritical aspect to most of the FCS crowd is when a D-II school moves up to the FCS the loyalists heap tons of praise on them for bettering their program. However, when an existing FCS program mentions a similar move to the FBS they are idiots. Go figure.

I don't speak in terms of D-IIs moving to FCS as "bettering" their football programs. But, again, there are significant differences between moving from D-II to FCS and football and moving from FCS to FBS.

First is the thing I talked about earlier: There isn't nearly as much difference between the top level of play in D-II and FCS as there is between FCS and FBS. A D-II power like North Dakota State was...or like Troy State was before...can move up and have reasonable expectations of competing at the top of its new level on a reasonably consistent basis.

That's not the case with a FCS to FBS move.

Another difference is that moving from D-II to FCS means being able to compete in Division I in all other sports. There is no such change in moving from FCS to FBS. Your other sports were Division I before and they're still Division I.

Another thing is that there is a possibility that your school's financial situation will actually get worse if it moves from FCS to FBS. It's real hard to nail that down, but I personally believe that scenario is more likely than not. I think it's likely that the school's revenues will increase, but it will not be enough to offset the increase in expenses. The net result is, more likely than not, going to be a poorer athletic department bottom line.

I know that's the opposite of what most people promoting moves from FCS to FBS say, but I a few years ago I spent a lot of time looking at that and found that, at least according to the data available, the average bottom line (revenues minus expenditures) for schools that had moved from I-AA to I-A was poorer (they lost more money) than the average for schools still in I-AA. Just checked it on some Louisiana schools to see if it looks the same and it does.

According to what they reported to the US DOE, the three Louisiana Southland Conference Schools had an average net of +$324,368 for the most recent fiscal years. The two former Louisiana I-AA Southland Conference Schools that moved to I-A (Louisiana Tech and Louisiana Monroe) reported an average net of $14,523. The "least profitable" Southland school, Nicholls State, reported a better bottom line ($33,051) than the more "profitable" of the two FBS schools (ULM at $29,046).

Louisiana Lafayette, which was never I-AA but is in the Sun Belt, reported a "break even" bottom line at $0. Meanwhile, nearby FBS McNeese State, another University of Louisiana system school in a smaller city, reported a bottom line of $347,508.

There are known problems with DOE reports because there's little control on how schools report. But when I think it's still instructive when one looks at schools within the same STate university system and sees what I just described. Plus I've looked at Louisiana Legislative Auditors reports before and seen the same basic picture (though when I did that there was some overlap and, for instance, LA Tech had a better bottom line than Nicholls State).

I'm not saying that there aren't some schools that have improved their finances by moving to I-A (now FBS). I'd guess that Boise State has...at least if it's measured now with them having had the success they had last year. But I think they are the exception rather than the rule.

Again, I think the likelihood is a negative financial impact on the athletic department.

[JohnStOnge]

Here's an interesting one:

In the DOE reports for the most recent fiscal year for which data are available, both East Carolina and Appalachian State reported "break even" ($0) bottom lines for their athletic programs.

However, the net ECU reported for its football program is -$1,126,520. App State reported +$1,330,929. So App State reported doing almost $2.5 million "better" on its football program than ECU did.

[Killtoppers90]

Never claimed that we were my good man, here our own state we get more attention and media coverage than UL-Monroe and UL-Laf, being in the Sun belt means nothing. Its the worst conference in the so callled "big time".

AS much as I hate to even think this, being the worst league in the BIG pond is much better than being the "after-thought" league as viewed by a majority college football fans. Sorry to say that but the truth hurts. I am not slighting FCS at all but ask any regular college football fan who or where FCS teams are - they will look at you sideways.

[JohnStOnge]

Never claimed that we were my good man, here our own state we get more attention and media coverage than UL-Monroe and UL-Laf, being in the Sun belt means nothing. Its the worst conference in the so callled "big time".

I think he's right on both counts. Southern gets more publicity, I think. That's kind of a unique situation because of Southern's history, tradition, and fan base (which is much larger than those of any predominantly White school in Louisiana except LSU).

But, still, outside of fans of the schools involved, the Sun Belt is pretty much nothing but the butt of jokes. If you listen to sports talk radio you hear a pretty uniform opinion that the Louisiana Sun Belt schools have no business playing in I-A (that's the term still used) and that...for instance...McNeese usually has better football teams and is being much more sensible in its choice of levels at which to play.

Former I-AA Louisiana Tech, which is in the WAC and has had some high profile wins in the past (like over eventual SEC champ Alabama in 1999), does get some respect. I think the perception of their level of success exceeds the reality when the whole picture is considered, but they do benefit from the perception generated by a handful of wins over programs that are now in the BCS.

Course I do think ULL and ULM get more publicity nationally than the Louisiana Southland schools do...usually bad but publicity nonetheless. In this State, though, I don't think there's any question that the two Sun Belt schools generally get less respect than the FCS schools do.

[GAD]

BUT, SunBelch schools can not afford $200K payouts. They typically only payout anywhere from $75,000 to $90,000, which is about what they get from season tickets alone. This is basically what UL-Lafayette offers as a gurantee.

McNeese is getting a $110,000 guarantee, PLUS 50% of the first 5,000 tickets we sell from our own box office. They know we will bring in not only our fans, but their own as well, because many of their fans miss our old rivalry, so we can make $150,000 from this game. Still not alot, but we already have 6 home games, so this is above and beyond what we would clear from a home and home with a Portland St. Georgia Southern, Youngstown, etc. considering the cost of an Air Charter, hotels, and ground transportation. All the UL-Lafayette game will cost us are a couple of charter busses.

McNeese will probably bring 8 to 10,000 or so to this game in Lafayette (only 75 miles away). If UL-Lafayette wants to see us again so they can help meet their 15,000 attendance requirement, I say we tell them that we not only want the 110K guarantee, but we what a percentage from ALL the tickets we sale in LC. Of course after we whip their @$$es, they will get on the phone to Southern or Grambling so they can get the crowd AND the win.
Trust me my friend you ain't gonna get SU or GSU for $150K

talk about getting the phone slammed in your face

[walliver]

A couple of comments comparing a D-II to FCS move vs. a FCS to FBS move.

1) D-II to FCS moves are frequently made to upgrade the athletic department. In fact, one of the arguments made when Wofford moved up was tht we could compete better at the D-I level. With D-II teams accepting great athletes that don't meet D-I academic standards, it can be hard for more academically oriented schools to compete. To some extent, I believe this was behind Presbyterian's move. (their great 2005 team got their rear-ends whipped in the D-II playoffs - Wofford has more wins in the I-AA playoffs than the D-II playoffs). The move also enhances institutional exposure which helps with fundraising and student recruitment.

2) FCS to FBS moves are often more about institutional prestige than athletics. There is a perception that FBS INSTITUTIONS are somehow bigger and better than lowly FCS institutions. I remember when ASU fired Rochel Laney and their Chancellor made a reference to an athletic department representative of a "Comprehensive State University" - I was sure that was a reference to going to FCS (and I still believe that is what he meant). There is a general feeling that "large state universities" should only play other "large state universities" in the "big time" division.

My opinion, it's worth what you paid for it.xnodx

[Cocky]

[QUOTE=JohnStOnge;599702]Here's an interesting one:

In the DOE reports for the most recent fiscal year for which data are available, both East Carolina and Appalachian State reported "break even" ($0) bottom lines for their athletic programs.

However, the net ECU reported for its football program is -$1,126,520. App State reported +$1,330,929. So App State reported doing almost $2.5 million "better" on its football program than ECU did.[/QUOTE


According to the Indystar data, ASU loss a little over a million and ECU loss a little over 800,000 on football.

[813Jag]

AS much as I hate to even think this, being the worst league in the BIG pond is much better than being the "after-thought" league as viewed by a majority college football fans. Sorry to say that but the truth hurts. I am not slighting FCS at all but ask any regular college football fan who or where FCS teams are - they will look at you sideways.
Sadly those same people you speak of don't respect any league below the Big East. Ask the average fan what conference Air Force, Louisiana Tech, or UTEP belong to and see what they say. Most people only know FIU do to the fight they had with UM. I'm not against any team moving.

[GAD]

AS much as I hate to even think this, being the worst league in the BIG pond is much better than being the "after-thought" league as viewed by a majority college football fans. Sorry to say that but the truth hurts. I am not slighting FCS at all but ask any regular college football fan who or where FCS teams are - they will look at you sideways.
TRUE! Outside of most of the BCS FBS schools plus Notre Dame everyone else is an afterthought

[SoCon48]

AS much as I hate to even think this, being the worst league in the BIG pond is much better than being the "after-thought" league as viewed by a majority college football fans. Sorry to say that but the truth hurts. I am not slighting FCS at all but ask any regular college football fan who or where FCS teams are - they will look at you sideways.

Ask 'em to name 3 Sun Belt teams and they'll say "Huh?"

[youwouldno]

I've talked to a lot of FBS fans, of Florida, Texas, Ohio State type schools, and none of them has said they have more respect for Sun Belt teams than FCS teams. Most casual fans don't even know the difference. The more educated fans think the Sun Belt teams are stupid for trying, and failing, to play successfully against the big boys.

[Old Montana State Grad]

Virtually every SEC, most ACC and Big East teams were once members of the SoCon; which conference will Kennesaw State and Georgia State join before moving up?

[Appstate29]

AS much as I hate to even think this, being the worst league in the BIG pond is much better than being the "after-thought" league as viewed by a majority college football fans. Sorry to say that but the truth hurts. I am not slighting FCS at all but ask any regular college football fan who or where FCS teams are - they will look at you sideways.

i'm a regular college football fan and I know where plenty of FCS schools are.

[Killtoppers90]

TRUE! Outside of most of the BCS FBS schools plus Notre Dame everyone else is an afterthought

Valid point there!

[Killtoppers90]

i'm a regular college football fan and I know where plenty of FCS schools are.

You (and the rest here) are the exceptions not the rule in general.

[StillJonesin]

Here's an interesting one:

In the DOE reports for the most recent fiscal year for which data are available, both East Carolina and Appalachian State reported "break even" ($0) bottom lines for their athletic programs.

However, the net ECU reported for its football program is -$1,126,520. App State reported +$1,330,929. So App State reported doing almost $2.5 million "better" on its football program than ECU did.

I would love to see a link on that one because every site I have ever seen like Indy financial or Equity in Athletics has nothing close to those numbers. Regardless even if true (and I am skeptical your looking at apples to apples) that had to be from several years ago when we were struggling on the field, having a poor year of attendance (30k for us), and paying 2 former head football coaches a couple of hundred thousand we fired. Things are going much better the last couple of years.

It would be a poor comparison to look at 2004 anyway for how things normally go or are going currently going at ECU in 2007. We have already sold 20k season tickets, a couple of thousand from assuring a season sale out and will be over 40k average a game for the year, with a new TV deal and every game on TV this year, and have exceed our 2006 fundraising goal in half a year at over $4.5 million

[StillJonesin]

Here's an interesting one:

In the DOE reports for the most recent fiscal year for which data are available, both East Carolina and Appalachian State reported "break even" ($0) bottom lines for their athletic programs.

However, the net ECU reported for its football program is -$1,126,520. App State reported +$1,330,929. So App State reported doing almost $2.5 million "better" on its football program than ECU did.

I would love to see a link on that one because every site I have ever seen like Indy financial has nothing close to those numbers. Regardless even if true (and I am skeptical your looking at apples to apples) that had to be from several years ago when we were struggling on the field, having a poor year of attendance (30k for us), and paying 2 former head football coaches a couple of hundred thousand we fired. Things are going much better the last couple of years.

It would be a poor comparison for how things are going currently going at ECU. We have already sold 20k season tickets, a couple of thousand from assuring a season sale out and will be over 40k average a game for the year, with a new TV deal and every game on TV this year, and have exceed our 2006 fundraising goal in half a year at over $4.5 million

[StillJonesin]

Here's an interesting one:

In the DOE reports for the most recent fiscal year for which data are available, both East Carolina and Appalachian State reported "break even" ($0) bottom lines for their athletic programs.

However, the net ECU reported for its football program is -$1,126,520. App State reported +$1,330,929. So App State reported doing almost $2.5 million "better" on its football program than ECU did.

I would love to see a link on that one because every site I have ever seen like Indy financial or Equity in Athletics has nothing close to those numbers. Regardless even if true (and I am skeptical your looking at apples to apples) that had to be from several years ago when we were struggling on the field, having a poor year of attendance (30k for us), and paying 2 former head football coaches a couple of hundred thousand we fired. Things are going much better the last couple of years.

It would be a poor comparison to look at 2004 anyway for how things normally go or are going currently going at ECU in 2007. We have already sold 20k season tickets, a couple of thousand from assuring a season sale out and will be over 40k average a game for the year, with a new TV deal and every game on TV this year, and have exceed our 2006 fundraising goal in half a year at over $4.5 million

[Mountaineer]

Ah, Jesus. He migrated here from the MMB. :(

:D

I knew the minute this thread started some MTSU guys and Jonesin would find their way over. Sure enough. xrolleyesx

[StillJonesin]

Ah, Jesus. He migrated here from the MMB. :(

:D

I knew the minute this thread started some MTSU guys and Jonesin would find their way over. Sure enough. xrolleyesx


This thread was linked on your board and no one could post the actual site where that info was taken from. I'm going straight to the source because I would like to see it.

[JohnStOnge]

I would love to see a link on that one because every site I have ever seen like Indy financial or Equity in Athletics has nothing close to those numbers. Regardless even if true (and I am skeptical your looking at apples to apples) that had to be from several years ago when we were struggling on the field, having a poor year of attendance (30k for us), and paying 2 former head football coaches a couple of hundred thousand we fired. Things are going much better the last couple of years.

The numbers are from the Equity in Athletics site for the (presumbably) fiscal year ending June 30, 2006. Here is a link:

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp

If you use it, you'll find it shows that ECU reported $4,246,064 in football revenues and $5,372,624 in football expenses for the 7/1/2005-6/30/2006
period. It also shows that App State reported $4,069,038 in football revenues and $2,738,109 in football expenses for the same period.

I concede that one has to keep the limitations of the gender equity reports in mind. Also, East Carolina is not really the kind of thing I'm talking about (FCS moving to FBS) because East Carolina never was I-AA and has been in I-A/FBS for a long time.

Another thing is that both App State and East Carolina reported "break even" for their overall athletic departments. That 1) doesn't show any overall AD difference between the two and 2) makes me think that they are both playing some kind of game to make things look better than they actually are (what are the chances of having revenues exactly match expenditures?).

But I've looked at this many, many times using gender equity reports as well as other sources and my opinion is that, more probably than not, a school that moves from FCS to FBS will see a poorer athletic department bottom line if it makes the move. Again... from what I can tell the revenues will increase but the increase will probably not be enough to offset the increase in expenses.

Remember, the increase in expenses is not limited to the football program. The increase in football scholarships means a change in the gender equity equation.

Also, if you get into a more competetive conference in other sports, that means you have to spend more money in order to compete.

Everybody can decide on their own what they want. All I'm saying is that, unless you get into a BCS league, I don't think that improving athletic department finances is a likely benefit of moving from FCS to FBS. I think it's likely that a school that does that is going to lose rather than gain ground in that particular area.

[gophoenix]

I don't get your thinking here. marshal and ecu have been two of our biggest rivals in the past.

Marshall probably did consider it a rival, according to my father (who was at ECU when they played App) says ECU never did. App is no more of a rival to ECU than ECU is to NC State. But Lenoir-Rhyne also used to be one of App's big rivals.... is that a case for the SAC conference?

Basically, this is another "blame the SoCon private schools" thread. Or blame Elon or blame Samford. It is the same thing every month. Give it a rest or leave already.

[terrierbob]

Wofford's 1-0 against the Sunbelt. What are other FCS schools' record?

[StillJonesin]

That is what those numbers say I guess, but honestly I find it hard to believe everything is being seen. We haven't been struggling with fan support and some of the single games tickets are $40 and $50 dollars. If we were bleeding money like that, I don't think the AD would be talking a $100 million dollar athletic facility enhancement plan just last week to the paper, double Holtz's salary to a million dollars a year, or even donate $100k to Virginia Tech memorial fund out of the athletic budget for our opening game with them. I don't think it would be possible. I don't think we are losing money or will with our future home games.



App is no more of a rival to ECU than ECU is to NC State.

You're right it's not a rivalry when it's so lopsided in recent memory. In the last 20 years vs NC State we are 7-4 including a Peach Bowl win and a win last year.

[SoCon48]

You're right it's not a rivalry when it's so lopsided in recent memory. In the last 20 years vs NC State we are 7-4 including a Peach Bowl win and a win last year.
7-4 is not really lop sided. 3 games over .500.

[SoCon48]

Marshall probably did consider it a rival, according to my father (who was at ECU when they played App) says ECU never did. App is no more of a rival to ECU than ECU is to NC State. But Lenoir-Rhyne also used to be one of App's big rivals.... is that a case for the SAC conference?

Basically, this is another "blame the SoCon private schools" thread. Or blame Elon or blame Samford. It is the same thing every month. Give it a rest or leave already.
Samford indeed has taken a load off Elon.xcoffeex

[SoCon48]

Ah, Jesus. He migrated here from the MMB. :(

:D

I knew the minute this thread started some MTSU guys and Jonesin would find their way over. Sure enough. xrolleyesx

Like ants at a picnic or herpes on a wrestling team.xcoffeex

JC

[SoCon48]

I would love to see a link on that one because every site I have ever seen like Indy financial or Equity in Athletics has nothing close to those numbers. Regardless even if true (and I am skeptical your looking at apples to apples) that had to be from several years ago when we were struggling on the field, having a poor year of attendance (30k for us), and paying 2 former head football coaches a couple of hundred thousand we fired. Things are going much better the last couple of years.

It would be a poor comparison to look at 2004 anyway for how things normally go or are going currently going at ECU in 2007. We have already sold 20k season tickets, a couple of thousand from assuring a season sale out and will be over 40k average a game for the year, with a new TV deal and every game on TV this year, and have exceed our 2006 fundraising goal in half a year at over $4.5 million

Well whoop de damn do. ECU!

[JohnStOnge]

That is what those numbers say I guess, but honestly I find it hard to believe everything is being seen. We haven't been struggling with fan support and some of the single games tickets are $40 and $50 dollars. If we were bleeding money like that, I don't think the AD would be talking a $100 million dollar athletic facility enhancement plan just last week to the paper, double Holtz's salary to a million dollars a year, or even donate $100k to Virginia Tech memorial fund out of the athletic budget for our opening game with them. I don't think it would be possible. I don't think we are losing money or will with our future home games.


I don't know whether or not the ECU football program is losing money or not. But your description of things like the ticket prices and the $100 million facility, and the $1 million coach's salary illustrates what I'm talking about. The expense associated with being competetive in FBS is a whole lot higher than the expense associated with being competetive in FCS.

In the past, I've seen stuff like ADs at I-AA schools say that it cost almost as much to be in I-AA as it does to be in I-A so you might as well be in I-A. That kind of talk is absolute nonsense. And it's especially nonsensical when it comes to being consistently competetive in the mainstream of the FBS.

[JohnStOnge]

I gotta say something else to the ECU guy:

I understand that you want to be in FBS. And ECU has done some nice things.

But if you were to identify the highest level at which ECU can reasonably expect to be counted among the best programs, that level is FCS.

I understand that most people would rather be an also ran in the highest level than a national championship contender in the second highest level.

But that's the reality. ECU is not, and it not likely to ever be, a top program in its current subdivision.

Neither is Boise State.

[Bronco85]

Yes. It pretty much is. No current Southern Conference School is ever going to be in the same world as "name" major schools. To think that you ever can be is delusion.

Yes, you might have some hope at some moments in the sunlight like Boise State had. Boise State beat the Big 12 champion. Marshall also beat the Big 12 champion a few years ago. Louisiana Tech beat the SEC champion once.

But, in the long run, you'll be a wannabe. That's it.



Maybe you're correct but I'll lend my perspective. I have been a fan of BSU since they played in the "small college" and DII ranks and watched them win championships. They won the Camelia bowl against Chico State and lost the Pioneer Bowl to then DII Louisiana Tech. They won a NJCAA national championship. BSU won a D1A National Championship game against Roy Kidd and EKU and a playoff game againt Eddie Robinson and Grambling. The Broncos lost in the finals againt YSU in West Virginia. I can say without equivocation that all of BSU's splendid NCJAA, SC, DII, and D1A success and the myriad of conference titles and big wins at those divisions pales to winning the Humanitarian Bowl against Louisville, watching Bart Hendricks run, throw, and catch TDs against UTEP in BSU's second Hbowl, beating TCU on thier home field in the Ft. Worth Bowl, a narrow loss to UL in the Liberty, beating Senneca Wallace and Iowa State in a bowl game, the seven yards short comeback against BC, and the Fiesta Bowl win against Oklahoma. Heck, getting invited to the WAC from the BWC or even the announced move to D1(FBS) was thrilling. Being ranked in the top 15 three of the last four years and seeing the BSU score on the top 25 scrolling marquee on ESPN programming tops anything about lower division football for this fan. If it is not your preferrence then so be it. To each his own.

[bandit]

I gotta say something else to the ECU guy:

I understand that you want to be in FBS. And ECU has done some nice things.

But if you were to identify the highest level at which ECU can reasonably expect to be counted among the best programs, that level is FCS.

I understand that most people would rather be an also ran in the highest level than a national championship contender in the second highest level.

But that's the reality. ECU is not, and it not likely to ever be, a top program in its current subdivision.

Neither is Boise State.

Most long-term FBS schools in BCS conferences are not likely to be a "top" program, either. Does that mean that Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, South Carolina, Pitt, UVA, UNC, Boston College, Maryland, Rutgers, Indiana, Illinois, Stanford, Cal, Arizona, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, should all drop to 1-AA so they have a realistic chance to win the title?

Of course not.

Look at the winners of the National Title in FBS over the last decade, or two decades for that matter. They are all the elite of the elite - zero exceptions. Year in and year out, there are only a dozen or so teams that can realistically have a shot at the title. Sure, some of the middle-tier teams have a shot now and again. This could be the year for WVU, or Louisville, or maybe Virginia Tech. But mostly you're looking at the year in/year out cream of the crop: Michigan, Ohio State, LSU, Oklahoma, USC, Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc.

There are other goals than the National Title. There are other ways to gauge a successful season. Are 116 teams in FBS a failure every year because they aren't the national title champ? I don't think so.

This notion that "you'll never be a "top" program if you move to FBS" is totally irrelevent. Welcome to the club. Most FBS programs are not at the "top" nor will they ever be. There are other ways to have a successful program.

My 2 cents, anyway.

[Bronco85]

Depends on what you mean by "successful." If "successful" is defined as being able to consistently field teams that win more than they lost against the mainstream of the FBS (i.e., the BCS leagues), none of the programs you cite have achieved that. UConn and South Florida have a shot because they are in a BCS league now. But getting into a BCS league is a very long shot.

I concede that Boise State got an awful lot of publicity from its win over Oklahoma. But the Broncos are 4 - 11 against BCS league schools since the start of the BCS in 1998. They're 4 - 5 over the past five seasons because they did have an aberrantly successful season in 2006 so as to go 2 - 0.

Bottom line is that Boise State was once in a subdivision in which it could reasonably expect a chance to compete to be one of the best programs in the subdivision. Now, it's not. It's program will perpetually be a wannabe program, with all of its focus on beating a "Big Boy" from time to time. But it is not a "Big Boy" itself as a program; nor will it ever be.

Same with App State. If your wish is to choose the level of play at which App State can expect to compete for being among the best, FCS is it.

If you say so then I guess BSU may as well drop back down. Why try? Oops... maybe I shouldn't take your word for it, should I. BSU started in the NJCAA ranks in 1933. Their record was 198-63-10 from 1933-1967 prior to starting four year competition in 1968.. Coach Lyle Smith was 158-25-6. BSU (BJC) fans saw their team win 76% (phenomenal) of their games including 5 undefeated seasons and the national championship in 1958. From 1968-72 BSU (BCC, BSC) competed in the small college division and went 42-12-0. They experienced no growing pains from such a leap up in divisions going 8-2-0 in their first year (1968). They won the Camellia Bowl against Chico State in 1971 in this division. BSU (BSC) then entered the new DII from 1973-1977. In DII BSU went 43-14-2 with four playoff appearances including a Pioneer Bowl loss to LTU in 1973. From 1978-1995 BSU played in the D1AA ranks going 134-76-0 with 11 playoff games including a loss to YSU in the 1AA finals in 1994 and winning the Camellia Bowl and the 1AA Championship againt EKU in 1980. Since going D1A in 1996 BSU is currently 98-38-0 with seven bowl appearences (5-2), 4 top 15 rankings, and one top 5 ranking. In short, BSU has won consistently (70%) at every level they have played at and that trend continues.

[Soil Lint Green]

Slow summer, eh guys? Bash the Sun Belt Conference all you want, be proud of your wins against an SBC member all you want, but remember this - the SBC is a new conference. Six or seven years old? Another thing to remember, the SBC is a D1A conference and proud of it. We're growing and improving. I hate to think of the years wasted in 1AA or lower.

[Cocky]

My motto is "play in the division or subdivision of your choice and have a good time"

[youwouldno]

To climb the ladder you have to pass someone. Who is the SBC going to pass? Nobody.

Also, any program in a major conference, with the right coach, can do some damage. It's not like that in the lower conferences.

[Bronco85]

I gotta say something else to the ECU guy:

I understand that you want to be in FBS. And ECU has done some nice things.

But if you were to identify the highest level at which ECU can reasonably expect to be counted among the best programs, that level is FCS.

I understand that most people would rather be an also ran in the highest level than a national championship contender in the second highest level.

But that's the reality. ECU is not, and it not likely to ever be, a top program in its current subdivision.

Neither is Boise State.

How many FCS teams are at "the top of their division". Appalacian State, Montana, Georgia Southern, New Hampshire and some others are there. All divisions have "haves and have nots". In the Big Sky (if you go by budgets, facilities, attendance and on field results) Montana has a virtually insurmountable lead on all of its conference foes. ECU, NAU, ISU, MSU make up another much lower tier. Northern Colorado? Please... I'll take BSU's status in the FBS just fine, thank you. With the exception of the last few years of D1AA for the Broncos, we were never at the top of our current division in terms of the mothers milk of college football (budgets, facilities, attendance, coaches salaries, and market) and yet BSU managed to hold our own wherever we played. To a degree, the humble beginnings of BSU have created an attitude and culture different from the one you express. Since day one in 1933, BSU has always been moving up as both an athletic and academic intitution. Growth and winning are endemic to the instituion and the community. As another poster in this thread states, play where you are comfortable.

[Old Montana State Grad]

How many FCS teams are at "the top of their division". Appalacian State, Montana, Georgia Southersn, New Hampshire and some others are there. All divisions have "haves and have nots". In the Big Sky (if you go by budgets, facilities, attendance and on field results) Montana has a virtually insurmountable lead on all of its conference foes. ECU, NAU, ISU, MSU make up another much lower tier. Northern Colorado? Please... I'll take BSU's status in the FBS just fine, thank you. With the exception of the last few years of D1AA for the Broncos, we were never at the top of our current division in terms of the mothers milk of college football (budgets, facilities, attendance, coaches salaries, and market) and yet BSU managed to hold our own wherever we played. To a degree, the humble beginnings of BSU have created an attitude and culture different from the one you express. Since day one in 1933, BSU has always been moving up as both an athletic and academic intitution. Growth and winning are endemic to the instituion and the community. As another poster in this thread states, play where you are comfortable.

One must be careful the confidence does not somehow become construed as arrogance, and you are getting there. I truly miss the days when the MSU-BSJC game determined the Big Sky Championships.

Tell us again how your program has progressed, yet neglect to mention how your surrounding town with you being the only show in town--and the region--may affect your team, support, AND--to hell with it! I'm going there!

How many of your kids are those LDS children of shunned Lavelle Edwards BYU rejects and you're the most logical school for the bitter kids of the bitter parents to attend (after they've gone on a two year mission, of course) and somehow your manboys still playing a kids game, chip on their shoulder and all, get more than a few breaks in your area?

In other words: Boysee State is getting the "kids" BYU should be getting; I mean, after all, ever LDS kid in America dreams of going on to play for BYU just as every Jesuit kid in America dreams of playing for Notre Dame, correct?

[AppMan]

Wins vs losses against SBC teams, athletic department bottom lines, never being in a playoff, ect. ect. ect. Once again, everyone seems to forget moving up is about much more than football. Corporations spend tons of cash on marketing their products without any concrete way of showing the return of that investment on a balance sheet. The marketing department always shows a loss, but it is easy to see the impact on the bottom line. The athletics department is the advertising arm of the university. We all like to pat ourselves on the back for having good academic institutions. But, the reality of the situation is 15,000 supporters (aka possible donors) of the university do not show up on a saturday afternoon and pay $25 each to watch a debate on global warming. Anything a university can do to elevate the prestique of the school in the eyes of that donor base will translate into more giving for the entire university. Like it or not, FBS institutions are viewed by the VAST majority of people, not just college football fans, as a higher level collection of schools. You can toss in the Ivies as an arguement, but I believe everyone here would agree that bunch is unique unto its own. Once again. This is far more an institutional issue than a football issue.

[SoCon48]

Like it or not, FBS institutions are viewed by the VAST majority of people, not just college football fans, as a higher level collection of schools.


I agree with you to a great extent, Doug, unless you start referencing that bundh of no names in the Sun Belt confernce.

[gophoenix]

Samford indeed has taken a load off Elon.

Is that all you have after all the anti-Elon crap? xcoffeex

The truth is, Western Carolina took the load off Elon.


7-4 is not really lop sided. 3 games over .500.

App is 7-14-1 against Wake, but apparently Wake is too scared to play App. In fact, some of you think App is that much better than Wake, which you were in the 90s. But why Attack ECU, at least they have a winning record against NC State.

Besides, App has as much in common with Wake Forest as they do with Elon and Furman.

[Bronco85]

[QUOTE=Old Montana State Grad;602583]One must be careful the confidence does not somehow become construed as arrogance, and you are getting there. I truly miss the days when the MSU-BSJC game determined the Big Sky Championships.

I did not denigrate you, your team, or the FCS. I simply responded to other posters who brought up BSU. Your "BSJC" referrence tells us who is arrogant.
Tell us again how your program has progressed, yet neglect to mention how your surrounding town with you being the only show in town--and the region--may affect your team, support, AND--to hell with it! I'm going there!

BSU's isolation from its competition and the phenomenal growth of the Boise metro area have indeed helped. The same could be said for Reno, Missoula, etc. It is not the only factor and it was not neglect but rather staying on topic which led tothis "omission".
How many of your kids are those LDS children of shunned Lavelle Edwards BYU rejects and you're the most logical school for the bitter kids of the bitter parents to attend (after they've gone on a two year mission, of course) and somehow your manboys still playing a kids game, chip on their shoulder and all, get more than a few breaks in your area?

In other words: Boysee State is getting the "kids" BYU should be getting; I mean, after all, ever LDS kid in America dreams of going on to play for BYU just as every Jesuit kid in America dreams of playing for Notre Dame, correct?The above is such a load of embittered drivel I barely know where to respond but here goes. BSU has nearly always, since becoming a four year program anyway, recruited the majority of their players from California (Idaho is not a hotbead od FBS or FCS talent). BSU being a secular institution, neither recruits or denies players based upon religion. The majority of BSU players, in any case, are not likely LDS. Lastly, their is nothing wrong with being of the LDS faith. Good luck to you and MSU./QUOTE]
[COLOR="indigo"]

[SoCon48]

Is that all you have after all the anti-Elon crap? xcoffeex

The truth is, Western Carolina took the load off Elon.
App is 7-14-1 against Wake, but apparently Wake is too scared to play App. In fact, some of you think App is that much better than Wake, which you were in the 90s. But why Attack ECU, at least they have a winning record against NC State.

Besides, App has as much in common with Wake Forest as they do with Elon and Furman.

The truth is, Western Carolina took the load off Elon.[/B][/COLOR]

ROFL. That's some big talk about a school that you're 1-4 against in the past 5 years.xrolleyesx
And yeah, I'll lay off Elon a bit since finally someone came along who sux worse than Elon.
And Wake? I don't recall anyone saying App is better than Wake, but winning a third of the games is pretty damn good when always playing at Groves.
And when Elon first started getting into the SoCon they predicted they would be challenging the top 3 in short order. Still waiting.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Greetings, fellows.

Before I respond to some comments in this thread, I feel I should ask this question as it has been posed across the messageboards of Sun Belt schools. If the Sun Belt Conference is so inferior then why do fans of 1-AA schools talk about the league so much? That is, why are fans here so obsessed with the Sun Belt Conference? And this wouldn't be the first time the Sun Belt was mentioned in a thread on this board. It's the same story every summer. And how come no other non-Power Six 1-A schools are never mentioned. There are no threads like this one relating to the MAC, WAC, Mountain West, CUSA, or any of the Power Six leagues. Why? Why the Sun Belt? Why the obsession? To say the Sun Belt is not worth your time, you sure do spend a great deal of time discussing the league.

I should also say that much of your information about the Sun Belt is incorrect. It's a shame many of you must make bold statements taking shots at a league without first researching the truth behind the matters.

Take this one, for instance.

True or False. Sun Belt schools won't schedule upper-tier 1-AA schools out of fear of losing.
False. Upper-tier 1-AA schools seekinga game against a 1-A school won't schedule Sun Belt schools and many other non-Power Six schools for that matter. Why? Because those 1-AA schools are seeking high guarantees that Sun Belt schools and other non-Power Six schools cannot afford. These 1-AA schools are seeking guarantees in the amounts of $400,000 or more. There's not a school in the Sun Belt, MAC, WAC, Mountain West, or Conference USA that could pay that much to play a 1-AA school. LSU would pay it. Florida and Alabama would pay it. Bottom line, the REAL reason why the Appalachian States and Montanas of the world don't schedule bottom-tier 1-A schools is because of money.

And here's a few more comments I've seen.

True or False. The average sports fan would be less interested in watching a game featuring a Sun Belt school (regular season or postseason) more than the 1-AA National Title game.
False. This past season's Motor City Bowl featuring Middle Tennessee and Central Michigan (directional schools often scorned by fans of 1-AA schools) drew a record 54,000+ in attendance. That's almost double the attendance of the 1-AA National Title game. The televised broadcast on ESPN of the Motor City Bowl on December 26th was the most watched telecast of the day according to the Nielson Ratings and those ratings far surpassed the 1-AA National Title game's ratings from ESPN2. By the way, contrary to popular belief, the Sun Belt has seen an at-large bid twice in it's existence (Troy in the Silicon Valley Classic in 2004 and Middle Tennessee in the 2006 Motor City Bowl) and the SBC will have a 2nd bowl bid in place in 2009 in an already existing bowl in either New Mexico, Mobile, or Birmingham.

True or False. The upper-tier 1-AA schools could beat anyone in the Sun Belt.
This is neither True nor False. It's speculation that can never be proven until upper-tier 1-AA schools play Sun Belt teams. That won't happen anytime soon. It all goes back to money.

True or False. The move to 1-A by members of the Sun Belt is a football-only issue.
False. The quality of athletics is improved in all sports when you are a member of a league with 1-A football. The Sun Belt is ranked as a Top 10 league in baseball, women's basketball, softball, and men's tennis. The Sun Belt Conference earned four postseason tournament bids in women's basketball (2 NCAA bids and 2 WNIT bids). Middle Tennessee's doubles tennis team won the national title over the defending national champion from Illinois. I can speak for our school when I say our success in other sports would never come to fruition as a member of the Ohio Valley Conference. And unless you are in the Colonial, Atlantic 10, Missouri Valley, or West Coast Conference, the quality of non-football sports is going to be lacking everywhere else in leagues that focus more on 1-AA football than they do these leagues where their emphasis is basketball.

True or False. 1-A football is a money drainer.
False. There are very few schools in 1-A that are operating in the red. I can't speak of other leagues, but I know for a fact that there is not a school in the Sun Belt Conference that operates in the red. ULM did for the first few years, but the defections of western affiliates to the WAC, and the move out of the financially inprofitable Southland has helped ULM to get back in the black. If anything the opposite is true. 1-AA football is the real money loser. There is no strong television package in 1-AA leagues. 1-AA schools lack corporate sponsorships because of visibility. Corporations won't sponsor schools' athletics programs if they aren't visible. From a business standpoint 1-AA football is not visible enough. That's why Papa Johns, Taco Bell, Movie Gallery, and others are so quick to give money to Louisville, Boise State, and Troy respectively but you never hear of such things going on at Montana, UMass, Applachian State, or Georgia Southern. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying those programs are bad just because they aren't getting corporate sponsors. It's just that those schools aren't elevated enough to get corporate sponsors. A transition up in divisional status in football would change that.

I'm not here to bash 1-AA schools. 1-A football isn't for everybody. I believe those that are in 1-A right now are there for a reason and you won't see any of them drop down to 1-AA, but I believe you will see 1-AA schools move up to 1-A in the next few years minus Western Kentucky. This is your board and you are welcomed to have whatever opinions you wish to have of our league. I think I speak for all fans of Sun Belt schools when I say we are quite flattered by your endless interests in our league. You guys are welcomed to come over and post on BlueRaiderZone.com anytime you wish.

We moved up to 1-A to improve all of our athetics and I think we've done that, but we still remember the good times with Appalachian and Georgia Southern. Those schools have really good fans and I enjoy chatting with them. Best of luck to all you guys and your schools this fall.

[Saint3333]

Greetings, fellows.

Take this one, for instance.

True or False. Sun Belt schools won't schedule upper-tier 1-AA schools out of fear of losing.
False. Upper-tier 1-AA schools seekinga game against a 1-A school won't schedule Sun Belt schools and many other non-Power Six schools for that matter. Why? Because those 1-AA schools are seeking high guarantees that Sun Belt schools and other non-Power Six schools cannot afford. These 1-AA schools are seeking guarantees in the amounts of $400,000 or more. There's not a school in the Sun Belt, MAC, WAC, Mountain West, or Conference USA that could pay that much to play a 1-AA school. LSU would pay it. Florida and Alabama would pay it. Bottom line, the REAL reason why the Appalachian States and Montanas of the world don't schedule bottom-tier 1-A schools is because of money.



Raider I agree with some of what you said, however this just isn't true. Prior to signing the Michigan game ASU had a common open date with two MAC programs and ASU was only requesting $100K for the game. Both programs turned ASU down. This may not be the norm, but it happened just 5 months ago. ASU would rather play the Michigan, LSU type games for the payout, exposure, and fan excitement around a game like this, but we haven't tried to schedule the lower tier FBS programs with no success.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Raider I agree with some of what you said, however this just isn't true. Prior to signing the Michigan game ASU had a common open date with two MAC programs and ASU was only requesting $100K for the game. Both programs turned ASU down. This may not be the norm, but it happened just 5 months ago. ASU would rather play the Michigan, LSU type games for the payout, exposure, and fan excitement around a game like this, but we haven't tried to schedule the lower tier FBS programs with no success.

I bet those MAC teams declined out of a financial necessity. They probably needed the larger pay-days themselves. Scheduling philophies vary from school to school. Too many non-Power Six schools are scheduling insanely, and that's when you see an 0-fer mark in OOC games because of such schedules.

I know Middle Tennessee's scheduling philosophy is changing. We used to schedule four or five away games a year against Power Six schools. I should tell you now that three Power Six schools we played in '05 and '06 were the results of schedule shifts. In '05 we were to go to Temple, but because that school is joining the MAC in football only they had to readjust their schedules and dropped us and NC State. As a result, we wound up traveling to NC State and getting beat instead of traveling to Temple and getting a possible win. In '06 we were dumped by Vanderbilt and UAB. In return we get Oklahoma and South Carolina. Two of our worst losses last season came from games we weren't supposed to have.

Massaro is trying to make the schedule better to produce more wins and get opponents that will increase fan attendance. Now we are getting series' with teams more on our level like Memphis and Ball State and are seeking more home non-conference games. I think Massaro with his ties in the Carolinas having spent time at South Carolina would not be afraid to schedule a home game against Appalachian, Furman, or Georgia Southern. I know we won't schedule a 1-AA school that is not in the Southeast no matter how good they are. A 1-AA school outside of our region of the country would never be of interest to our fans nor would their fans travel well especially for a regular season game. Usually we go for instate 1-AA schools because of our common interests. Massaro did say he'd like to put a 1-AA team on our schedule every year and since 1-AA's count towards bowl eligibility every year, then why not?

I know that Sam Baker of Georgia Southern has a problem with scheduling any kind of 1-A team. GSU doesn't play 1-A teams so even getting a game with them would be hard just because it's in Sam's philosophy not to schedule up a division.

[McNeese72]

Greetings, fellows.

True or False. The upper-tier 1-AA schools could beat anyone in the Sun Belt.
This is neither True nor False. It's speculation that can never be proven until upper-tier 1-AA schools play Sun Belt teams. That won't happen anytime soon. It all goes back to money.



September 15, 2007! Stay tuned.

Plus, why does the SLC have an overall winning record against the Sunbelt teams? If the SLC teams can do it, why can't the upper tier of FCS schools do it?

Doc

[JohnStOnge]

How many FCS teams are at "the top of their division". Appalacian State, Montana, Georgia Southern, New Hampshire and some others are there. All divisions have "haves and have nots". In the Big Sky (if you go by budgets, facilities, attendance and on field results) Montana has a virtually insurmountable lead on all of its conference foes. ECU, NAU, ISU, MSU make up another much lower tier. Northern Colorado? Please... I'll take BSU's status in the FBS just fine, thank you. With the exception of the last few years of D1AA for the Broncos, we were never at the top of our current division in terms of the mothers milk of college football (budgets, facilities, attendance, coaches salaries, and market) and yet BSU managed to hold our own wherever we played. To a degree, the humble beginnings of BSU have created an attitude and culture different from the one you express. Since day one in 1933, BSU has always been moving up as both an athletic and academic intitution. Growth and winning are endemic to the instituion and the community. As another poster in this thread states, play where you are comfortable.

I understand that at this time things are very good for Boise State. However, Boise State did win a national championship in I-AA and also played in another national championship game. Also, as I recall, Boise State played in a D-II national championship game before I-AA was formed.

That is not likely to happen for Boise State in its current subdivision. I realize that that doesn't matter to you but Boise State was able to reasonably aspire to national championships in I-AA. There is no reasonable aspiration for such in FBS for Boise State...and it's not just because of the system. There's virtually no chance that Boise State is going to be good enough to compete for it.

[JohnStOnge]

Originally Posted by RaiderInTheZone
Greetings, fellows.

True or False. The upper-tier 1-AA schools could beat anyone in the Sun Belt.
This is neither True nor False. It's speculation that can never be proven until upper-tier 1-AA schools play Sun Belt teams. That won't happen anytime soon. It all goes back to money.


Upper tier I-AA schools have played Sun Belt teams. I-AA teams that went on to make the playoffs are, historically, either 8-2 or 6-2 against Sun Belt teams...depending on whether or not you consider Florida International to have been in the Sun Belt in 2004.

Heck, you ought to remember one of the matchups as then I-AA Florida Atlantic, which went on to go to the playoffs, beat Middle Tennessee in 2003.

It's very reasonable to believe that the answer to the question is "true." Do you seriously not think Appalachian State or UMass would've had a shot at beating Troy last season?

Please.

[AndrewFU21]

Anything a university can do to elevate the prestique of the school in the eyes of that donor base will translate into more giving for the entire university. Like it or not, FBS institutions are viewed by the VAST majority of people, not just college football fans, as a higher level collection of schools. You can toss in the Ivies as an arguement, but I believe everyone here would agree that bunch is unique unto its own. Once again. This is far more an institutional issue than a football issue.

To me, this issue is what makes things so different for public schools than privates. With so many other state schools out there, Appalachian State has to fight off the notion that they are some sort of 'second-tier' institution in the UNC system compared to schools like ECU, NC State, etc., and athletics is a part of that.

That's what makes ASU and Furman so different. Furman has never used athletics as a huge part of its identity, and the idea of improving the athletics program for the sake of academic reputation would seem silly to us.

[JohnStOnge]

Maybe you're correct but I'll lend my perspective. I have been a fan of BSU since they played in the "small college" and DII ranks and watched them win championships. They won the Camelia bowl against Chico State and lost the Pioneer Bowl to then DII Louisiana Tech. They won a NJCAA national championship. BSU won a D1A National Championship game against Roy Kidd and EKU and a playoff game againt Eddie Robinson and Grambling. The Broncos lost in the finals againt YSU in West Virginia. I can say without equivocation that all of BSU's splendid NCJAA, SC, DII, and D1A success and the myriad of conference titles and big wins at those divisions pales to winning the Humanitarian Bowl against Louisville, watching Bart Hendricks run, throw, and catch TDs against UTEP in BSU's second Hbowl, beating TCU on thier home field in the Ft. Worth Bowl, a narrow loss to UL in the Liberty, beating Senneca Wallace and Iowa State in a bowl game, the seven yards short comeback against BC, and the Fiesta Bowl win against Oklahoma. Heck, getting invited to the WAC from the BWC or even the announced move to D1(FBS) was thrilling. Being ranked in the top 15 three of the last four years and seeing the BSU score on the top 25 scrolling marquee on ESPN programming tops anything about lower division football for this fan. If it is not your preferrence then so be it. To each his own.

I completely understand your satisfaction with your experience. I don't quite understand preferring beating a 0.500 team in a bowl game (Iowa State) in a bowl game over winning a national championship, but I can understand being happy about the other stuff.

However, Boise State is the exception rather than the rule. And what we're talking about is moving to the Sun Belt.

Gotta say something else. The idea that Boise State was really one of the top 15 I-A/FBS teams during three of the past four years is really questionable because the Broncos don't play many games against the mainstream of the subdivision (BCS league teams). 2003 - 2005, Boise State was 1-4 against BCS league teams. I don't think there's any way the Broncos were really one of the best 15 teams in the nation during any of those years. I think if you'd have stuck any of those Bronco teams in...say...the SEC they'd have had very mediocre records and would not have finished ranked at all.

The 2006 team...maybe. It did beat the snot out of a good Oregon State team and topped a BCS league champ (albeit the weakest of the BCS league champs) in the Bowl game by pulling some trick plays out of the hat at key times. But it also played a very weak overall schedule by I-A/FBS standards. Whether it could've fashioned a record good enough to end in the top 15 playing against a FBS schedule of even average difficulty is unknown.

[StillJonesin]

I understand that most people would rather be an also ran in the highest level than a national championship contender in the second highest level.

But that's the reality. ECU is not, and it not likely to ever be, a top program in its current subdivision.



Louisville........they were 1-10 and played in a minor league baseball stadium (litterly triple A) in front of 20k fans in CUSA 10 years ago. Bet you would have said the same. When we played them in 1997 they had 12k there that day.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a187/StillJonesing/Cardinal_-_RF640T.jpg


We have had top 10 and top 20 teams in the past and as many as 50k in our stadium and 40k+ average for the season. We just have to figure out how to do it consistantly and I think it is possible to get to where say Louisville that were our peers in the same conference 2 years ago is now or say Virginia Tech that were pretty much our equals 15 years ago in attendance, success etc.

Having home games vs North Carolina and NC State this year for instance some would have said that would never happen either. They are on the schdule a lot in the future in equal home deals. We play Virginia Tech 4 times at home and once in Charlotte in the next straight 9 years in an home and home series and others vs Virginia, West Virginia and South Carolina. The schdules make it worth it and are good enough to recruit high level players with. None of that would have happened D1aa it's still a lot of fun in the mean time even if we aren't the top level we do play the so called top level in our stadium and win pretty often and have won more than any non- BCS vs them in the last 10-15 years. The oppertunity is there and programs like Lousiville prove you can move yourself up by your bootstraps to better things.

and FTR, say what you want about the Sun Belt but I think it's hard to argue they aren't a conference on the rise and most of them were pretty proven on your level. I think the next 10 years are bright for them and the BCS is more inclusive as it has ever been. Those teams could still put a team in a major bowl.

Under the new rules a team would have went most years from the non BCS even some teams that some could argue had no buisness there with SOS in the 100+ range or like TCU with a loss to a 5-6 SMU team would have made it in 2005 under these new rules. You could almost say the path is easier if you play in the non-BCS and you get more glory if you get there like Boise.

[skinny_uncle]

After checking historical data, I was surprised to find SIU had a better winning percentage against eh WAC and MAC than the Sunbelt. It is mostly due to a crappy record against Arkansas State.

[gophoenix]

The truth is, Western Carolina took the load off Elon.[/B][/COLOR]

ROFL. That's some big talk about a school that you're 1-4 against in the past 5 years.xrolleyesx
And yeah, I'll lay off Elon a bit since finally someone came along who sux worse than Elon.


Big deal, 1-4 against Western. Though, the same old song and dance from you. Western took what is said to be Elon's spot last year annd they are still clutching it. But really, Elon only truly finished in last place 1 time. End of story. xcoffeex

And glad to know you'll lay off Elon since Western is worse. xthumbsupx And heck, overall in conference play as a whole, Elon is one of the SoCon's better overall Athletics programs the past few seasons.


And Wake? I don't recall anyone saying App is better than Wake, but winning a third of the games is pretty damn good when always playing at Groves.

Saint and AppMan have said it just in this thread alone, FWIW.

Woohoo, that's the "best" excuse for losing 2/3 games I have ever heard. All while knocking ECU for winning 2/3 against NC State. But wait.... there's more.... Wake is a private school and those games at Groves were like home games because App fans always outnumbered Wake fans (MMB Posts of the past year, searches reveal this including your comments). xbangx

So which is it, was playing at Groves a home away from home game? Or was that all a lie and it is really an away game where you didn't outnumber the private school's fans, which is an excuse for only winning an handful????


And when Elon first started getting into the SoCon they predicted they would be challenging the top 3 in short order. Still waiting.

So who predicted Elon to be top 3? Elon officials? The administrators? saying "they predicted" is not only plural but makes it sound all inclusive of the school. Are you sure you are remembering this right?

But ultimately, I am waiting too. But then again, when Elon was being looked at, we were a top-25 team. But please feel free to post proof of posters saying Elon would be challenging the top 3? And please define short order? We've only been in the SoCon for 4 seasons so far, not exactly a long time yet and still time to prove those posters right, if they really said that.

xrolleyesx

But keep trying. Maybe you can get a coherent post together eventually.

[Saint3333]

GP please show me where I said ASU was better than Wake, be prepared to defend such claims if you wish to throw someone under the bus that was not involved. Unfortunately for you, I'm now involved and have some unpleasant facts.

Elon has won FOUR footbal conference games in four years of SoCon play.

Elon finished 7th in the Commish Cup (men's) and tied for 6th in the German Cup (Women's) out of 11 teams, IMO that doesn't qualify as one of the better overall athletic programs.

http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4000&ATCLID=900932

Not smack just facts. I don't bring up ASU baseball on baseball boards (we are getting better though), if I were you I wouldn't bring up Elon football on AGS.

[SoCon48]

GP please show me where I said ASU was better than Wake, be prepared to defend such claims if you wish to throw someone under the bus that was not involved. Unfortunately for you, I'm now involved and have some unpleasant facts.

Elon has won FOUR footbal conference games in four years of SoCon play.

Elon finished 7th in the Commish Cup (men's) and tied for 6th in the German Cup (Women's) out of 11 teams, IMO that doesn't qualify as one of the better overall athletic programs.

http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4000&ATCLID=900932

Not smack just facts. I don't bring up ASU baseball on baseball boards (we are getting better though), if I were you I wouldn't bring up Elon football on AGS.


Hell, he wouldn't know facts if they hit him upside the head.

Oh, and if I were you I wouldn't bring up Elon football on AGS. was a good one.

[SoCon48]

Big deal, 1-4 against Western. Though, the same old song and dance from you. Western took what is said to be Elon's spot last year annd they are still clutching it. But really, Elon only truly finished in last place 1 time. End of story. xcoffeex

And glad to know you'll lay off Elon since Western is worse. xthumbsupx And heck, overall in conference play as a whole, Elon is one of the SoCon's better overall Athletics programs the past few seasons.

And Wake? I don't recall anyone saying App is better than Wake, but winning a third of the games is pretty damn good when always playing at Groves.

Saint and AppMan have said it just in this thread alone, FWIW.

Woohoo, that's the "best" excuse for losing 2/3 games I have ever heard. All while knocking ECU for winning 2/3 against NC State. But wait.... there's more.... Wake is a private school and those games at Groves were like home games because App fans always outnumbered Wake fans (MMB Posts of the past year, searches reveal this including your comments). xbangx

So which is it, was playing at Groves a home away from home game? Or was that all a lie and it is really an away game where you didn't outnumber the private school's fans, which is an excuse for only winning an handful????



So who predicted Elon to be top 3? Elon officials? The administrators? saying "they predicted" is not only plural but makes it sound all inclusive of the school. Are you sure you are remembering this right?

But ultimately, I am waiting too. But then again, when Elon was being looked at, we were a top-25 team. But please feel free to post proof of posters saying Elon would be challenging the top 3? And please define short order? We've only been in the SoCon for 4 seasons so far, not exactly a long time yet and still time to prove those posters right, if they really said that.

xrolleyesx

But keep trying. Maybe you can get a coherent post together eventually.

Are you through rambling?
Oh Geez, the boards that crap was posted on by Elon fans long ago disappeard with the demise of those defunct boards along with any dreams of Elon leading the SoCon in football. But since you don't remember it, it couldn't possibly be true.
Coherent posts? Coming from the master of the message boards. I personally think the problem you have with my posts is really your lack of comprehension. No complaints from other posters.
And overall athletic programs in the SoCon? What a joke. Oh, I forget, this is a baseball conference.

[Bronco85]

I understand that at this time things are very good for Boise State. However, Boise State did win a national championship in I-AA and also played in another national championship game. Also, as I recall, Boise State played in a D-II national championship game before I-AA was formed.

That is not likely to happen for Boise State in its current subdivision. I realize that that doesn't matter to you but Boise State was able to reasonably aspire to national championships in I-AA. There is no reasonable aspiration for such in FBS for Boise State...and it's not just because of the system. There's virtually no chance that Boise State is going to be good enough to compete for it.


You may be correct but the point I evidently failed to impress upon you was that this is also the case in the FCS. Take the Big Sky Conference for example. Montana has much better facilities, attendance, and success in FB than their conference mates. This is largely because they have an athletic budget that would put them in the middle of the WAC. UM's budget is nearing 14 million. Conference mate Northern Colorado has a budget closer to 4 million with attendance and facilities that are not remotely close to what UM enjoys. If you are consistent in your argument you should be equally critical of UNC's move up from DII because as you put it, "there's virtually no chance that (Northern Colorado) is going to be good enough to compete for (a championship)". Frankly, I applaud UNC's move up in a division. Who is to say if they will ever increase their budgets, facilities, and support to a level that might make them championship worthy? The FCS is where their fans, athletic department, and administration want to be and surely they know their challenges and tasks are daunting. You may not believe BSU will win a NC in the BCS but I guarantee you that is where their sights are set and they are in it for the long haul. I suspect that prior to last season your assessment of BSU playing in a BCS bowl (let alone winning it against the top 10 Big 12 champs) was pretty close to your current assesment about BSU's BCS championship chances. In any case, the attempt is a lot more fun for this fan than any of our lower division success.

[Old Montana State Grad]

You may be correct but the point I evidently failed to impress upon you was that this is also the case in the FCS. Take the Big Sky Conference for example. Montana has much better facilities, attendance, and success in FB than their conference mates. This is largely because they have an athletic budget that would put them in the middle of the WAC. UM's budget is nearing 14 million. Conference mate Northern Colorado has a budget closer to 4 million with attendance and facilities that are not remotely close to what UM enjoys. If you are consistent in your argument you should be equally critical of UNC's move up from DII because as you put it, "there's virtually no chance that (Northern Colorado) is going to be good enough to compete for (a championship)". Frankly, I applaud UNC's move up in a division. Who is to say if they will ever increase their budgets, facilities, and support to a level that might make them championship worthy? The FCS is where their fans, athletic department, and administration want to be and surely they know their challenges and tasks are daunting. You may not believe BSU will win a NC in the BCS but I guarantee you that is where their sights are set and they are in it for the long haul. I suspect that prior to last season your assessment of BSU playing in a BCS bowl (let alone winning it against the top 10 Big 12 champs) was pretty close to your current assesment about BSU's BCS championship chances. In any case, the attempt is a lot more fun for this fan than any of our lower division success.

Actually, I appreciate this post. Would you please enlighten us on the overall bowl experience for not just the football team? What do you suppose that means to the overall contributions to your school from non-football participants?

[Bronco85]

I completely understand your satisfaction with your experience. I don't quite understand preferring beating a 0.500 team in a bowl game (Iowa State) in a bowl game over winning a national championship, but I can understand being happy about the other stuff.

However, Boise State is the exception rather than the rule. And what we're talking about is moving to the Sun Belt.

Gotta say something else. The idea that Boise State was really one of the top 15 I-A/FBS teams during three of the past four years is really questionable because the Broncos don't play many games against the mainstream of the subdivision (BCS league teams). 2003 - 2005, Boise State was 1-4 against BCS league teams. I don't think there's any way the Broncos were really one of the best 15 teams in the nation during any of those years. I think if you'd have stuck any of those Bronco teams in...say...the SEC they'd have had very mediocre records and would not have finished ranked at all.

The 2006 team...maybe. It did beat the snot out of a good Oregon State team and topped a BCS league champ (albeit the weakest of the BCS league champs) in the Bowl game by pulling some trick plays out of the hat at key times. But it also played a very weak overall schedule by I-A/FBS standards. Whether it could've fashioned a record good enough to end in the top 15 playing against a FBS schedule of even average difficulty is unknown.

This is, again an argument that could made of FCS schools too. Have you seen Montana's schedule? Ft. Lewis? SUU? Backing out of road games with top FCS schools? Yet UM won't be as critizized for their scheduling. And you know what? They shouldn't. Montana (like BSU) makes more money on home games than the do by pimping themselves out to cash in "bodybag" games so they play very few (like BSU). They also understand building a program over time and, like BSU, are generally increasing budgets, facilities, revenue, market saturation at a pace which eclipses their neighbors. You can denigrate the records and rankings of BSU all you want (and you made some errors in doing so) but there are no asterics behind the Broncos records and achievements. I get it. You favor your school,playing in the FCS. Good for you. Now see if you can understand this. I favor my school playing in the FBS. So does virtually every fan of evey school in the FBS and many fans of many schools playing in the FCS.

[Old Montana State Grad]

compare your scedule to the old big 8 with nebraska and oklahoma, the big ten with ohio state and michigan. who do you play? anyway, i'd rather you spend some time explaining the bowl experience for the entire school than attempting to debate the tournament versus a single bowl experience.

[Bronco85]

Actually, I appreciate this post. Would you please enlighten us on the overall bowl experience for not just the football team? What do you suppose that means to the overall contributions to your school from non-football participants?


I can give my perspectives on the bowl experience as a fan. Even the first Humanitarian Bowl against Louisville who was then in Conference USA was on a bigger stage than anything I had witnessed in the three lower divisions. Could we compete againt a respectable D1A team with a group only 3 years removed from D1AA? UL QB (Chris Redmond) was being talked about as a top flight NFL pick. BSU was a 7+ point underdog. The amount of print, television, and on-line media coverage was unheard of for BSU at the time. The banter with the UL fans on the internet was great (they have some darn fine fans) but the gist was generally, "nice little team you got there, what's with the blue turf? And oh yeah, we'll mop the floor with you guys". The game itself was relatively close but Redmond did not live up to his billing in tossing a few INT's and a sophmore walk-on named Brock Forsey provided UL fits (he was the game MVP). The stadium was packed (larger than any D1AA crowd I rember) and electric and loud. There was a flyover of A10s. The ESPN crew was extremely complimentary.

And strangely enough... it got better every time. More HBowls, beating TCU in the Ft. Worth bowl, barely losing to UL in the Liberty, etc... The Fiesta speaks for itself. The thing I am the most amazed about in that game was not the way BSU jumped out to an early lead, or held AP to a paltry run total, or that UO had to have a miracle bounce just to get back into the game, or the hook and ladder, the HB option, or the statue of liberty, or seeing Barry Switzer speechless. It was that the attendance between UO and BSU was a dead heat.

Lastly, I want to apologize. I am not sure what you mean by "contributions to you school by non-football participants". I can say that contributions both athletically and academic are significantly up. BSU is getting early recruiting commitments which never used to happen. BSU is now recruiting and getting commitments in places I never thought we could (Texas, Florida, New Jersey). The new College of Buisness building was funded through donations sooner than expected. The stadium expansion (currently underway) has moved forward at an accelerated pace. There is a 34 page waiting list for season tickets (23,000 are sold ina 30,000 seat stadium). Applications from perspective students are way up and BSU is now much more selective about who they accept. Will it last? Certainly not forever but for now its truly amazing.

[Bronco85]

compare your scedule to the old big 8 with nebraska and oklahoma, the big ten with ohio state and michigan. who do you play?
Irrelevant. It is just as valid to say, compare Fordam's schedule in 1922 when they were a true superpower in college football to today. BSU is in the WAC. That is the highest level they can currently obtain.
anyway, i'd rather you spend some time explaining the bowl experience for the entire school than attempting to debate the tournament versus a single bowl experience.
Me too. I already posted my experiences attending bowls (another post in reply to you) and I have not debated the merits of the playoff experinces vs. the bowl experince (if either thing actually exists) but simply stated my preference as a fan who has experienced both.

Of course we could just wade into the Appy State vs. Elon donnybrook going on in this thread... or not.

Go Bobcats!!!

xsmiley_wix

[RaiderInTheZone]

Upper tier I-AA schools have played Sun Belt teams. I-AA teams that went on to make the playoffs are, historically, either 8-2 or 6-2 against Sun Belt teams...depending on whether or not you consider Florida International to have been in the Sun Belt in 2004.

Heck, you ought to remember one of the matchups as then I-AA Florida Atlantic, which went on to go to the playoffs, beat Middle Tennessee in 2003.

It's very reasonable to believe that the answer to the question is "true." Do you seriously not think Appalachian State or UMass would've had a shot at beating Troy last season?

Please.

Sure, I think App State and UMass MIGHT have had a shot at Troy, but App State also got throttled by one of NC State's worst teams in recent memory. And then a bad UAB team beat Troy. It's strange how things can happen. I'm not going to compare scores and like opponents, nor am I going to throw out flawed Sagarin ratings. I don't think you can really compare and judge talent at two completely different levels. Sun Belt schools play much stronger schedules than any school in 1-AA. You can guess and speculate, but to throw it out as FACT is wrong.

I believe the Sun Belt Conference has gotten much better since those years you speak of. MT's losses to SEMO and FAU were under a previous coaching staff that had limited visions for success. Those losses came five and four years ago. Much can happen in four years. Last year the Sun Belt was a perfect 5-0 against 1-AA teams, albeit, not very good 1-AA teams, but still 5-0 nonetheless. And the margins of victory showed dominating performances by the Sun Belt schools over their lesser 1-AA competition. I feel the Sun Belt has improved. The SBC went 4-3 against CUSA and one of it's members crushed one of CUSA's better teams in a bowl game.

I know you guys don't like the Sun Belt. That's fine. I know you guys are obsessed with the Sun Belt, and I know that you guys hope for the Sun Belt to continue to fail so that you will have a platform to stand on in your never-ending argument against 1-A football and mostly those former 1-AA schools that left your schools behind for bigger and better things. I don't mind you guys believing that 75% of schools in 1-AA can effortlessly mow the Sun Belt down. Until I see it happen today, I will be unconvinced.

[RaiderInTheZone]

After checking historical data, I was surprised to find SIU had a better winning percentage against eh WAC and MAC than the Sunbelt. It is mostly due to a crappy record against Arkansas State.

Most of these 1-AA schools that have winning records against Sun Belt, WAC, and MAC teams came when those SBC, WAC, and MAC teams were 1-AA themselves. So much has changed since then. Middle Tennessee was 0-12 against Vandy all time before 2001. MT hadn't played Vandy in over 40 years until 2001. As of today, Middle Tennessee is 3-12 against Vandy. That's proof that history can change a program. If we were still in the OVC, Vandy would've throttled just as they did Furman and Richmond in recent memory. Even a bad Vandy team can crush a 1-AA power. There's still that fine line between 1-A and 1-AA.

[OL FU]

Most of these 1-AA schools that have winning records against Sun Belt, WAC, and MAC teams came when those SBC, WAC, and MAC teams were 1-AA themselves. So much has changed since then. Middle Tennessee was 0-12 against Vandy all time before 2001. MT hadn't played Vandy in over 40 years until 2001. As of today, Middle Tennessee is 3-12 against Vandy. That's proof that history can change a program. If we were still in the OVC, Vandy would've throttled just as they did Furman and Richmond in recent memory. Even a bad Vandy team can crush a 1-AA power. There's still that fine line between 1-A and 1-AA.


I am not arguing against any points but in this case FU is a bad example. Vandy is the only I-A team that has throttled us since 2002. We played BSC bowl bound Pitt to overtime and a good Clemson team to within 8 points. The game where Vandy throttle us was the first game in 2002, we had a new coach playing against our old coach ( He had seen the play bookxsmiley_wix )

[gophoenix]

Damn, boy. learn to read!xrolleyesx

Poor JCline xbawlingx

[Mod11]

I-AA 2006, gophoenix, PLAY NICE or the thread gets closed...

[StillJonesin]

7-4 is not really lop sided. 3 games over .500.

Ok well how about 5 of the last 7 going our way. Is that lop sided enough?

[AppMan]

Posted by RaiderInTheZone

"Sure, I think App State and UMass MIGHT have had a shot at Troy, but App State also got throttled by one of NC State's worst teams in recent memory."

Throttled? Obviously you don't know anything about that game. They won by 13 stinking points and we gave 'em 2 of those on the second play of the game. In essence they beat us by a TD & FG. I am not going to get into playing the could have - should have - would have game because we just didn't get it done, but 13 points is hardly getting throttled. Just a quick FYI. The past TWO years ASU contacted almost EVERY SunBelt school looking for games and came up empty. There were common open dates available and we were willing to travel, but nobody was willing to take a chance on playing us. It is hard to establish a W-L record against your conference when nobody in the league will play us. One reason ASU has a lousy W-L records against FBS programs is because none of the lower level FBS schools will play us. Yes, NC State was down last year, but look at the guys we have played over the past few years. LSU, Kansas (in a bowl that year), Wyoming (in a bowl that year), Hawaii (the flight alone was worth 21 points in their favor), Marshall (with Byron Leftwich when they ruled the MAC), Auburn, and we all know about this year. We have games lined up with Florida, Georgia and another trip to LSU. We beat WF 2 out the last 3 times we played them and although they are worlds better now they still won't play us. Duke and ECU won't play us either.

[JohnStOnge]

Louisville........they were 1-10 and played in a minor league baseball stadium (litterly triple A) in front of 20k fans in CUSA 10 years ago. Bet you would have said the same. When we played them in 1997 they had 12k there that day.

We have had top 10 and top 20 teams in the past and as many as 50k in our stadium and 40k+ average for the season. We just have to figure out how to do it consistantly and I think it is possible to get to where say Louisville that were our peers in the same conference 2 years ago is now or say Virginia Tech that were pretty much our equals 15 years ago in attendance, success etc.

I probably would have said, at that point, that it wasn't likely that Louisville would become a top program. The expectation is that, most of the time when you say "likely," you'll be right. Sometimes you'll be wrong.

Louisville's chances of maintaining status as a top FBS program increased dramatically when it entered a BCS league.

Anyway, ECU is not and has never been what I'd call a top I-A/FBS program. And I don't think it's likey that it'll ever become one.

[JohnStOnge]

[COLOR="Indigo"]You may be correct but the point I evidently failed to impress upon you was that this is also the case in the FCS. Take the Big Sky Conference for example. Montana has much better facilities, attendance, and success in FB than their conference mates. This is largely because they have an athletic budget that would put them in the middle of the WAC.

No, it is not the "same." It is not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility for any team in the Big Sky to rise to the upper echelon of FCS programs and think about competing for a national championship. It might be a longer shot for some than it is for others, but it's not effectively impossible.

But there is no school in the Big Sky right now that could look at a reasonable possibility of rising to the level of top echelon FBS program that could reasonably think about competing for a "national title" in that realm.



If you are consistent in your argument you should be equally critical of UNC's move up from DII because as you put it, "there's virtually no chance that (Northern Colorado) is going to be good enough to compete for (a championship)".

As I wrote in another post either on this thread or a similar one, there is not nearly as much difference between the top of D-II and the top of FCS as there is between top FCS and top FBS. It is not unusual for top D-II programs to beat top FCS programs. In 2003, for example, Valdosta State (which lost its first game of the D-II tournament), blasted I-AA semifinalist Florida Atlantic 45-17. That same year, North Dakota State (which was still D-II at the time and finished 8-3 while playing in that Division's North-Central conference, beat Montana and North Alabama beat I-AA OVC champ Jacksonville State. Just this past season D-II playoff participant Chadron State beat FCS playoff particpant Montana State.

In 1994, D-II national champ North Alabama lost 17-14 to I-AA national champ Youngstown State. Before your own Boise State Broncos won the I-AA national title in 1980, they lost to D-II national champ Cal Poly during the regular season.

It's just not the same. To my knowledge, no I-AA has ever even beaten a I-A ranked in the top 25. The difference between the two "moves up" in terms of how far a program has to go to reach the level of the top of its new level is huge.

But look, I can understand why a Boise State fan would feel like you feel. Boise State's experience of the past few years, similar to Marshall's experience of the late 90s and early 2000s, has been much better than those of most programs that have made the move.

[JohnStOnge]

This is, again an argument that could made of FCS schools too. Have you seen Montana's schedule? Ft. Lewis? SUU? Backing out of road games with top FCS schools?

I think Montana's schedule relative to the FCS was and will be tougher than Boise State's relative to the FBS simply because Montana is in one of the tougher FCS conferences while Boise State is not in one of the tougher FBS conferences. It's kind of like LSU in 2003. The Tigers played Louisiana Tech, Louisiana Monroe, Western Illinois, and a very down Arizona team in non conference play but still got into the BCS title game due to schedule strength because they play in the SEC.

[JohnStOnge]

I believe the Sun Belt Conference has gotten much better since those years you speak of. MT's losses to SEMO and FAU were under a previous coaching staff that had limited visions for success. Those losses came five and four years ago. Much can happen in four years. Last year the Sun Belt was a perfect 5-0 against 1-AA teams, albeit, not very good 1-AA teams, but still 5-0 nonetheless.

Those I-AAs the Sun Belt went 5-0 against last year weren't just "not very good." They finished rate in the range of 71st to 119th in the FCS GPI. If you don't like that rating system you can look at any other and get a similar picture.

2005 was not all that long ago and, in 2005, a team that tied for the Sun Belt championship lost at home to a team that tied for third in the Southland.


I know you guys don't like the Sun Belt. That's fine. I know you guys are obsessed with the Sun Belt, and I know that you guys hope for the Sun Belt to continue to fail so that you will have a platform to stand on in your never-ending argument against 1-A football and mostly those former 1-AA schools that left your schools behind for bigger and better things. I don't mind you guys believing that 75% of schools in 1-AA can effortlessly mow the Sun Belt down. Until I see it happen today, I will be unconvinced.

Nobody said 75% of the schools in FCS could "mow the Sun Belt down." Me, I think the Sun Belt is comparable to one of the better FCS leagues in caliber. And, even if it were a little stronger than that, it would still have a long way to go to move of the position of being distinctly the weakest FBS conference. It'd still be the case that moving to the Sun Belt means being in the very bottom strata of the FBS.

[RaiderInTheZone]

JohnStOnge,

I will describe it to you in the same manner that I described it to Appalachian State fans. Why do schools jump to Division 1-A when most of them know ahead of time that a national championship in football will never happen? That is the argument I keep hearing by fans of 1-AA schools that shun schools that have moved up and compete in leagues that aren't eligible to compete for the 1-A national title.

The fact is this. Every school has goals just like you and I have goals for our lives. What job do you want? What kind of house to you wish to live in? What kind of car do you want to drive? Not everybody can drive a Porche or live in mansion or be the CEO of a Tier 3 Fortune 500 company. Some people are content on being the best they can be. Driving a Lexus is fine. It's not as luxiurious as a Porche, but it's nice. A nice 5 bedroom, 3 bath 2-story home is nice, but it's not a mansion, and at least it's not a shanty. And working as a supervisor of a section of Tier 3 company can be much better than playing the role of an executive of a Tier 1 company.

Some people know ahead of time that they will never be the CEO or even a high class executive of a Tier 3 Fortune 500 company, but at least they are working with those that are. It is better for them to develop by working with the best in the business--people everyone's heard of--rather than being a top dog in a less reputable company that hardly anyone has heard of. It's okay that they aren't the best in their company. As long as they are doing their best and keeping their jobs intact, that's good enough.

I hope you can understand what I'm saying. Being an executive or CEO of a Tier 1 company may be the right fit for you and your school, and you may believe it to be no more or less reputable than being a leading supervisior for a section of a large Tier 3 Fortune 500 company, but in the eyes of those in the 1-A Sun Belt, MAC, or WAC, it is very much worth it to be working with the Tennessees, Michigans, USCs, and Floridas rather than guiding the Elons, Presbyterians, Lehighs, and Sienas.

Do you understand what I'm saying? That is the best way I know how to describe our position and your position. You have set goals for you life. I've set goals for mine, but not everyone can be the President of the United State or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Sometimes we have to be content with not being #1. That doesn't make our lives any less meaningful. We will always work to better ourselves.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Posted by RaiderInTheZone

"Sure, I think App State and UMass MIGHT have had a shot at Troy, but App State also got throttled by one of NC State's worst teams in recent memory."

Throttled? Obviously you don't know anything about that game. They won by 13 stinking points and we gave 'em 2 of those on the second play of the game. In essence they beat us by a TD & FG. I am not going to get into playing the could have - should have - would have game because we just didn't get it done, but 13 points is hardly getting throttled. Just a quick FYI. The past TWO years ASU contacted almost EVERY SunBelt school looking for games and came up empty. There were common open dates available and we were willing to travel, but nobody was willing to take a chance on playing us. It is hard to establish a W-L record against your conference when nobody in the league will play us. One reason ASU has a lousy W-L records against FBS programs is because none of the lower level FBS schools will play us. Yes, NC State was down last year, but look at the guys we have played over the past few years. LSU, Kansas (in a bowl that year), Wyoming (in a bowl that year), Hawaii (the flight alone was worth 21 points in their favor), Marshall (with Byron Leftwich when they ruled the MAC), Auburn, and we all know about this year. We have games lined up with Florida, Georgia and another trip to LSU. We beat WF 2 out the last 3 times we played them and although they are worlds better now they still won't play us. Duke and ECU won't play us either.

Appalachian State has not contacted Middle Tennessee. I know that for a fact. Also, you are trying to accept a moral victory against NC State's worst team in many, many years. The better teams are the ones that make the plays, get the interceptions, and force the other team to make damaging mistakes. NC State was the better team. Early in the season or latter in the season, NC State would've beaten Appalachian no matter when they played. It just goes to show the fine division between 1-A and 1-AA. I still don't put stock in the Sagarins and Masseys because of games like that. You can't put NC State 40+ spots below a team they beat in a game they never trailed. It's proof SOS is not factored as much as wins and losses. Appalachian would have a losing record having played NC State's schedule last year. 1-A schools have more depth than 1-AA schools and can last the season longer. If anything early in the season is when 1-AA's score all of their upsets over 1-A's because that is when 1-AA's are their most healthiest, and 1-A's are their most vulnerable.

[GGASU]

JohnStOnge,

I will describe it to you in the same manner that I described it to Appalachian State fans. Why do schools jump to Division 1-A when most of them know ahead of time that a national championship in football will never happen? That is the argument I keep hearing by fans of 1-AA schools that shun schools that have moved up and compete in leagues that aren't eligible to compete for the 1-A national title.

The fact is this. Every school has goals just like you and I have goals for our lives. What job do you want? What kind of house to you wish to live in? What kind of car do you want to drive? Not everybody can drive a Porche or live in mansion or be the CEO of a Tier 3 Fortune 500 company. Some people are content on being the best they can be. Driving a Lexus is fine. It's not as luxiurious as a Porche, but it's nice. A nice 5 bedroom, 3 bath 2-story home is nice, but it's not a mansion, and at least it's not a shanty. And working as a supervisor of a section of Tier 3 company can be much better than playing the role of an executive of a Tier 1 company.

Some people know ahead of time that they will never be the CEO or even a high class executive of a Tier 3 Fortune 500 company, but at least they are working with those that are. It is better for them to develop by working with the best in the business--people everyone's heard of--rather than being a top dog in a less reputable company that hardly anyone has heard of. It's okay that they aren't the best in their company. As long as they are doing their best and keeping their jobs intact, that's good enough.

I hope you can understand what I'm saying. Being an executive or CEO of a Tier 1 company may be the right fit for you and your school, and you may believe it to be no more or less reputable than being a leading supervisior for a section of a large Tier 3 Fortune 500 company, but in the eyes of those in the 1-A Sun Belt, MAC, or WAC, it is very much worth it to be working with the Tennessees, Michigans, USCs, and Floridas rather than guiding the Elons, Presbyterians, Lehighs, and Sienas.

Do you understand what I'm saying? That is the best way I know how to describe our position and your position. You have set goals for you life. I've set goals for mine, but not everyone can be the President of the United State or the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Sometimes we have to be content with not being #1. That doesn't make our lives any less meaningful. We will always work to better ourselves.


Wow that was just like the speech Adam Sandler gave in Billy Madison. Everyone that read it, has now lost a few IQ points.

[dbackjon]

Random thoughts on this thread...

1) For MTSU fans to be crowing about the Motor Bowl attendence is laughable. I lived in Nashville up until January, and read the daily stories bemoaning the lack of MTSU ticket sales. The Raiders had to struggle to sell out the 2,000 tickets they were allotted, and many were bought by boosters who didn't even go. And MTSU's home attendance was inflated by the Louisville "Home" game in Nashville that was mostly Louisville fans.
MTSU made the move after a game at Florida State, and the then President thought that he could get MTSU to Florida State's level xlolx.

2) Boise and Nevada had out grown the Big Sky. With the support and size of the metro areas, both made a logical leap. Idaho's move, on the other hand, was stupid and has been a failure.

3) WKU's move made some sense, if only to join it's conference mates in all other sports.

4) FCS level teams can and do compete for Division I titles in all other sports. NAU has finished second and third in both men's and women's cross-country. UNI/Lehigh etc compete for Wrestling titles. Lacrosse, Hockey, etc all have strong FCS teams.

5) If the SunBelt teams are happy where they are at, more power to them. But please don't delude yourself that you are superior to FCS. The Sunbelt would be a just another FCS conference in terms of strength.

[JohnStOnge]

I think a good analogy for a IAA moving to the FCS is a 160 pound boxer who has a chance to be a contender at the Middleweight level but lets his ego get to him and insists upon trying to contend as a heavyweight.

[Saint3333]

I still don't put stock in the Sagarins and Masseys because of games like that.

Funny how teams that are ranked low in these rankings don't believe they are an accurate measure...

[JohnStOnge]

I haven't read all the stuff about Sagarin's and Masseys but any "system" for anticipating game outcomes is going to miss a lot. Heck, Ohio State was favored by the power rating systems, the line, and as far as I can tell most college football fans before the last BCS championship game.

Football is unpredictable.

What you have to do is look at overall performance. And, overall performance wise...Sagarin's system appears to be about equivalent to the Vegas line in terms of how "right" it is in picking favorites. During 2006, for example, the favorite by Sagarin in I-A/FBS games won 76 percent of the time while the favorite by the updated Vegas line won 75 percent of the time.

As with the line, you can look at it in terms of probability. The bigger the spread, the more often the favorite wins. So like, with Sagarin, I figure teams favored by 7 points will win about 2 out of 3 of their games, teams favored by 14 will win about 4 out of 5, etc. The line is very similar because the "error" associted with it is comparable.

When it gets to something like 30 points, you're talking about favorites by that much winning maybe 34 out of 35 so it's getting really unlikely.

I've looked into it before and my opinion is that, when you look at the whole season and all games Sagarin's final ratings make pretty much sense. I don't think I or anybody else would agree completely with them but that's probably true of any ranking system including of the major polls. .

[JohnStOnge]

I thought I'd mention that the main reason I don't like seeing I-AA and now FCS schools move to I-A and now the FBS it hurts FCS in general and it has really hurt the Southland over the year. For one thing, the Southland lost four strong programs (Louisiana Tech, North Texas, Arkansas State, Louisiana Monroe, Troy) to the "wannabe" itch. Louisiana Monroe, then as Northeast Louisiana, won the conference's only national championship. Louisiana Tech and Arkansas State both made it to the national championship game and Troy played in two semifinal games. North Texas made the playoffs a few times.

The other thing is that it changes the talent equation. I think most of the players at Sun Belt schools are players that would be playing at FCS schools now if those former I-AAs weren't available to expand the need for filling FBS slots. But I think they tend to be some of the better "FCS caliber" recruits because being "FBS" does confer an advantage. I think that the Southland is located in an area of the country that is unsurpassed as far as density of football talent goes. But the region is also overloaded with FBS "wannabe" schools so that does not translate into the Southland being a dominant FCS conference as it was shaping up to be during the 1980s before schools started jumping ship. A bunch of players that really ought to be in FCS are instead playing in an FCS caliber FBS league located right on top of the Southland footprint. And the Southland is at a competetive disadvantage in trying to recruit FCS caliber recruits in its footprint because those players are also being wooed by schools who appeal to their egos by telling them they can go there and play at the "top" level.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Funny how teams that are ranked low in these rankings don't believe they are an accurate measure...

So because Division II Grand Valley State is ranked ahead of Appalachian State in that poll, then according to YOUR theory GVSU is hands down better than Appalachian State and would've beaten them this past season?

I'm just using your premise that the Massey and Sagarins are 100% accurate like you suggest. I'm not buying it.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Wow that was just like the speech Adam Sandler gave in Billy Madison. Everyone that read it, has now lost a few IQ points.

It obviously goes over your head. You have to look at it metaphorically. Be the big boy in a small pond. That's okay. We choose to be where we are at working with reputable people instead of wallowing in the mire with the Elons, Woffords, and Citadels of the world. Oh yes, and welcome 1-AA "power" Samford to your fold. Congratulations to the Southern Conference for bringing down the competiveness of it's league just to appease Tennessee-Chattanooga.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Random thoughts on this thread...

1) For MTSU fans to be crowing about the Motor Bowl attendence is laughable. I lived in Nashville up until January, and read the daily stories bemoaning the lack of MTSU ticket sales. The Raiders had to struggle to sell out the 2,000 tickets they were allotted, and many were bought by boosters who didn't even go. And MTSU's home attendance was inflated by the Louisville "Home" game in Nashville that was mostly Louisville fans.
MTSU made the move after a game at Florida State, and the then President thought that he could get MTSU to Florida State's level xlolx.

2) Boise and Nevada had out grown the Big Sky. With the support and size of the metro areas, both made a logical leap. Idaho's move, on the other hand, was stupid and has been a failure.

3) WKU's move made some sense, if only to join it's conference mates in all other sports.

4) FCS level teams can and do compete for Division I titles in all other sports. NAU has finished second and third in both men's and women's cross-country. UNI/Lehigh etc compete for Wrestling titles. Lacrosse, Hockey, etc all have strong FCS teams.

5) If the SunBelt teams are happy where they are at, more power to them. But please don't delude yourself that you are superior to FCS. The Sunbelt would be a just another FCS conference in terms of strength.


First off, I was in Detroit for that game so I can tell you there were easily 3,000 Middle Tennessee fans that took the 10+ hour trip for the bowl game. But we heard often that a MAC directional school and a Sun Belt directional school wouldn't draw well in attendance even though Central Michigan was playing in their home state? In fact, that's garbage you guys predicted on this messageboard before the game was actually played. Your fans here anticipated bad attendance and bad Nelson Ratings for the Motor City Bowl between Middle Tennessee and Central Michigan. Instead, it drew over 54,000 in attendance--the most ever in the history of the bowl game despite having hosted teams from the Big East, Big 10, CUSA, and other MAC powers such as Toledo and Marshall in the past.

And the Nelson Ratings were higher than any game played prior to that date from any division.

[youwouldno]

It obviously goes over your head. You have to look at it metaphorically. Be the big boy in a small pond. That's okay. We choose to be where we are at working with reputable people instead of wallowing in the mire with the Elons, Woffords, and Citadels of the world. Oh yes, and welcome 1-AA "power" Samford to your fold. Congratulations to the Southern Conference for bringing down the competiveness of it's league just to appease Tennessee-Chattanooga.

The problem with your argument is that its purely tautological and has no meaning. The Sun Belt has nothing in common with the Floridas and Ohio States. Being called "FBS" doesn't change that. Some middle manager for a major company has nothing to do with the CEO.

A lot of lawyers, for instance, choose to practice in medium or small cities, rather than working in NY, DC, LA, etc. That's the same choice FCS programs make. They can't compete with USC, Texas, LSU, and so on, so they choose not to try.

Sun Belt teams are mostly just FCS-caliber programs with 22 more scholarships. Good for them. Those 22 scholarships get them more money when a good team kills them, and in a good season they get to lose money on a no-name, no-interest bowl.

[RaiderInTheZone]

The problem with your argument is that its purely tautological and has no meaning. The Sun Belt has nothing in common with the Floridas and Ohio States. Being called "FBS" doesn't change that. Some middle manager for a major company has nothing to do with the CEO.

A lot of lawyers, for instance, choose to practice in medium or small cities, rather than working in NY, DC, LA, etc. That's the same choice FCS programs make. They can't compete with USC, Texas, LSU, and so on, so they choose not to try.

Sun Belt teams are mostly just FCS-caliber programs with 22 more scholarships. Good for them. Those 22 scholarships get them more money when a good team kills them, and in a good season they get to lose money on a no-name, no-interest bowl.

And right there is your problem. What is of no interest to your school is of interest to someone else. It may interest me to be run my own Physical Fitness empire, but that might not interest you. That's fine. We have our own tastes, but that doesn't make what we strive for any less meaningful. You choose your path, and we will choose ours.

[JohnStOnge]

So because Division II Grand Valley State is ranked ahead of Appalachian State in that poll, then according to YOUR theory GVSU is hands down better than Appalachian State and would've beaten them this past season?

I'm just using your premise that the Massey and Sagarins are 100% accurate like you suggest. I'm not buying it.

Grand Valley State isn't in the Sagarin ratings because Sagarin doesn't rate D-II schools. The Massey ratings I can find that show GVSU slightly ahead of App State are based strictly on won/loss records (no point differentials); and I think even Massey would tell you that's not the best way to do it (it's just what the BCS requires).

However, the idea of the Division II champ being comparable to the FCS champ is not off the wall at all. I know of two instances in which the eventual D-II and I-AA national champs played during the regular season. In 1994. eventual I-AA champ Youngstown State beat D-II champ North Alabama 17-14. In 1980, eventual D-II champ Cal Poly beat I-AA champ Boise State 23 - 20.

On the North Alabama/Younstown State thing, by the way, that was an undefeated (1 tie) Youngstown State team. It was probably the best team of the Penguins' dominant run. There have only been three undefeated I-AA national champs.

I've posted some other stuff in this thread about how it's not unusual at all to have top D-II teams beat top I-AA teams. It's not like the top of FBS...schools like Florida, Ohio State, USC, and LSU...vs. top FCS schools. Rating the FCS national champ higher than the BCS champ is implausible. Rating the D-II champ slightly above the FCS champ is not.

[youwouldno]

And right there is your problem. What is of no interest to your school is of interest to someone else. It may interest me to be run my own Physical Fitness empire, but that might not interest you. That's fine. We have our own tastes, but that doesn't make what we strive for any less meaningful. You choose your path, and we will choose ours.

Wrong. The playoff system makes the postseason of relevance to FCS fans in general. A minor bowl game is irrelevant to anyone besides the participants.

A bowl game involves 2 teams, often irrelevant in the subdivision. The playoffs involve 16, at the top of their subdivision.

[SoCon48]

Funny how teams that are ranked low in these rankings don't believe they are an accurate measure...

:D :D :D :D

[RaiderInTheZone]

Wrong. The playoff system makes the postseason of relevance to FCS fans in general. A minor bowl game is irrelevant to anyone besides the participants.

A bowl game involves 2 teams, often irrelevant in the subdivision. The playoffs involve 16, at the top of their subdivision.


Every bowl game is relevant to Division 1-A teams. There's always the possibility of at-large bids being dealt out to schools in conferences not tied to those bowls. You have to be here to understand it.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Grand Valley State isn't in the Sagarin ratings because Sagarin doesn't rate D-II schools. The Massey ratings I can find that show GVSU slightly ahead of App State are based strictly on won/loss records (no point differentials); and I think even Massey would tell you that's not the best way to do it (it's just what the BCS requires).

However, the idea of the Division II champ being comparable to the FCS champ is not off the wall at all. I know of two instances in which the eventual D-II and I-AA national champs played during the regular season. In 1994. eventual I-AA champ Youngstown State beat D-II champ North Alabama 17-14. In 1980, eventual D-II champ Cal Poly beat I-AA champ Boise State 23 - 20.

On the North Alabama/Younstown State thing, by the way, that was an undefeated (1 tie) Youngstown State team. It was probably the best team of the Penguins' dominant run. There have only been three undefeated I-AA national champs.

I've posted some other stuff in this thread about how it's not unusual at all to have top D-II teams beat top I-AA teams. It's not like the top of FBS...schools like Florida, Ohio State, USC, and LSU...vs. top FCS schools. Rating the FCS national champ higher than the BCS champ is implausible. Rating the D-II champ slightly above the FCS champ is not.

So you are admitting to me that Grand Valley State has a better team than Appalachian State and that GVSU would beat ASU because they are ranked higher? Correct?

[StillJonesin]

The intermingling is hardly accurate IMO. There is so little data to base it on because there are so few D1a vs D1aa when you consider all the games. Then out of those games the record vs D1a is not very good either. Not sure where they gain all their capital. Who exactly did App St beat that would put them significantly higher in computer land than NC State who they lost to?


Wrong. The playoff system makes the postseason of relevance to FCS fans in general. A minor bowl game is irrelevant to anyone besides the participants.

A bowl game involves 2 teams, often irrelevant in the subdivision. The playoffs involve 16, at the top of their subdivision.

Yet these "minor" bowls constantly have better attendance and TV ratings pretty much across the board.

[Bronco85]

No, it is not the "same." It is not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility for any team in the Big Sky to rise to the upper echelon of FCS programs and think about competing for a national championship. It might be a longer shot for some than it is for others, but it's not effectively impossible.

You are being selective. The differnce between UNC and Um is light years and they play in the same conference (and we haven't even brought up the non-scholarship FCS schools). While the odds are slim, it is possible for a non-AQ team to play for the "mythic" BCS championship. Louisville, South Florida, and UConn have been able to move into an AQ BCS conference and now have a much greater shot. They are not far removed from non-AQ status (UConn from then D1AA status). The BCS standards are constantly being tweeked. A confernce in the west created from the best of the WAC and the MWC would have some chance of being AQ at some point. You argue for status quo in the FBS and dynamism in the FCS and history hold the latter has not happened.
But there is no school in the Big Sky right now that could look at a reasonable possibility of rising to the level of top echelon FBS program that could reasonably think about competing for a "national title" in that realm.

Actually, UM and possibly PSU could. Both have a long way to go but one has market and the other inertia so it may be a matter of time...or not. Look to the GWC and Cal Davis. There my friends is a sleeping giant starting to awaken.



As I wrote in another post either on this thread or a similar one, there is not nearly as much difference between the top of D-II and the top of FCS as there is between top FCS and top FBS. It is not unusual for top D-II programs to beat top FCS programs.

No, it is very unusual. Instead of providing the few exceptions, why not look up every such encounter since the inception of D1AA and DII and provide the winning percentage? It will be lopsided.
In 2003, for example, Valdosta State (which lost its first game of the D-II tournament), blasted I-AA semifinalist Florida Atlantic 45-17. That same year, North Dakota State (which was still D-II at the time and finished 8-3 while playing in that Division's North-Central conference, beat Montana and North Alabama beat I-AA OVC champ Jacksonville State. Just this past season D-II playoff participant Chadron State beat FCS playoff particpant Montana State.

In 1994, D-II national champ North Alabama lost 17-14 to I-AA national champ Youngstown State. Before your own Boise State Broncos won the I-AA national title in 1980, they lost to D-II national champ Cal Poly during the regular season.

Again, the few examples you give likely reflect, to a degree at least, the fact that that top DII and D1AA teams met each other much more often than top D1AA and D1A teams (I cannot think of a single such match up offhand) and yet there are a paltry few DII wins. The gap may be larger but it is not as hopeless as you make it seem.
It's just not the same. To my knowledge, no I-AA has ever even beaten a I-A ranked in the top 25.
Honest question,how many times has such as matchup occurred vs DII vs. D1AA top matchups? In any case, FCS (D1AA) teams beat FBS (D1A) teams virtually every year but I suspect, again this is still rare. It idicates asizable but hardly an insurmountable gap.
The difference between the two "moves up" in terms of how far a program has to go to reach the level of the top of its new level is huge.

This depends to a degree on how far the individual team is in terms of budgets, facilities, attendance, and institutional commitment. If Pittsburg State moved up to FCS now, they would likely be competetive long before Norther Colorado even with UNC's head start. BSU leapfroging long time D1A (FBS) teams (e.g. NMSU, USU, UW, etc., and even some AQ teams like Duke, BU, Cinn., etc.) has to do with having more of at least some of those characteristics than some of the teams that were there (FBS) first and the capacity and realization to keep growing at a lorger pace. I do concede there is still a long way to go but it is the real terget at BSU.
But look, I can understand why a Boise State fan would feel like you feel. Boise State's experience of the past few years, similar to Marshall's experience of the late 90s and early 2000s, has been much better than those of most programs that have made the move.

There are similarities and differences. The major difference which vastly favors BSU's continued success is Boise vs. Huntington. In any case I could just as easily backhand a compliment and say, "I understand, the FCS team you support lacks the institutional will, competetive fire, budgets, facilities, attendance, geograhical good fortune, and donar base to do anything other than play for the bottom shelf prize in the lesser division and that's just fine for you. Heck, any people enjoy AAA baseball." But then we would both see through that, wouldn't we. And in any case, there is some damn good FB played at the FCS level and we both enjoy it. Take care.

[youwouldno]

Every bowl game is relevant to Division 1-A teams. There's always the possibility of at-large bids being dealt out to schools in conferences not tied to those bowls. You have to be here to understand it.

I'm pretty sure I can understand the bowl system without "being there." I follow FBS football as well as FCS. But your statement here is absurd. Do you honestly believe Florida fans last year cared about the Continental Tire Bowl?

Once the bids are handed out, they have no connection to one another. With the playoffs, each round directly impacts the subsequent rounds.

Of course, the FBS could be reformed to feature a playoff system, but I imagine Sun Belt fans fear such a change, seeing as a Sun Belt team would never even make the playoffs.

[StillJonesin]

Do you honestly believe Florida fans last year cared about the Continental Tire Bowl?

The numbers would say more than they cared about the D1aa champion.

I was struck by these quotes I noticed recently.

"Troy officials believe a regular-season home win over Missouri in 2004 garnered more nationwide exposure than the combined coverage awarded to Georgia Southern for its first four Division I-AA national titles. That’s what Troy assistant athletic director Scott Farmer, who worked in GSU’s athletic department for nearly two decades from 1982-99, said. "

“Beating Mississippi State in 2001 was bigger than any one of (GSU championship) wins, and playing at Nebraska in’ 01, just walking out there in that 89,000 sea of red, just playing them was more media exposure than winning the I-AA national championship,” Farmer said.

[StillJonesin]

I'm pretty sure I can understand the bowl system without "being there." I follow FBS football as well as FCS. But your statement here is absurd. Do you honestly believe Florida fans last year cared about the Continental Tire Bowl?

Once the bids are handed out, they have no connection to one another. With the playoffs, each round directly impacts the subsequent rounds.

Of course, the FBS could be reformed to feature a playoff system, but I imagine Sun Belt fans fear such a change, seeing as a Sun Belt team would never even make the playoffs.


I was struck by these quotes I noticed recently.

"Troy officials believe a regular-season home win over Missouri in 2004 garnered more nationwide exposure than the combined coverage awarded to Georgia Southern for its first four Division I-AA national titles. That’s what Troy assistant athletic director Scott Farmer, who worked in GSU’s athletic department for nearly two decades from 1982-99, said. "

“Beating Mississippi State in 2001 was bigger than any one of (GSU championship) wins, and playing at Nebraska in’ 01, just walking out there in that 89,000 sea of red, just playing them was more media exposure than winning the I-AA national championship,” Farmer said.

[Lionsrking]

[quote=RaiderInTheZone;604902]JohnStOnge,

I will describe it to you in the same manner that I described it to Appalachian State fans. Why do schools jump to Division 1-A when most of them know ahead of time that a national championship in football will never happen? That is the argument I keep hearing by fans of 1-AA schools that shun schools that have moved up and compete in leagues that aren't eligible to compete for the 1-A national title.

The fact is this. Every school has goals just like you and I have goals for our lives. What job do you want? What kind of house to you wish to live in? What kind of car do you want to drive? Not everybody can drive a Porche or live in mansion or be the CEO of a Tier 3 Fortune 500 company. Some people are content on being the best they can be. Driving a Lexus is fine. It's not as luxiurious as a Porche, but it's nice. A nice 5 bedroom, 3 bath 2-story home is nice, but it's not a mansion, and at least it's not a shanty. And working as a supervisor of a section of Tier 3 company can be much better than playing the role of an executive of a Tier 1 company.

Some people know ahead of time that they will never be the CEO or even a high class executive of a Tier 3 Fortune 500 company, but at least they are working with those that are. It is better for them to develop by working with the best in the business--people everyone's heard of--rather than being a top dog in a less reputable company that hardly anyone has heard of. It's okay that they aren't the best in their company. As long as they are doing their best and keeping their jobs intact, that's good enough...

quote]

It's the classic American trait of of "living beyond your means." People are going into debt up to their eyeballs everyday in this country because they strive to live in the mansion on the hill or drive the Mercedes they can't pay for. That's what schools like Middle Tennessee, UL-Lafayette, Monroe, North Texas, etc., are essentially doing. Schools that choose to stay in the FCS understand their level and are content to stay there. That doesn't mean they don't strive to get better everyday, it's just that they aren't going to mortgage their future in order to appear to be something they're not. It's not about running around rubbing elbows with the best, it's about being the very best you can be within a reasonable level of expectation, nothing more, nothing less.

[youwouldno]

I was struck by these quotes I noticed recently.

"Troy officials believe a regular-season home win over Missouri in 2004 garnered more nationwide exposure than the combined coverage awarded to Georgia Southern for its first four Division I-AA national titles. That’s what Troy assistant athletic director Scott Farmer, who worked in GSU’s athletic department for nearly two decades from 1982-99, said. "

“Beating Mississippi State in 2001 was bigger than any one of (GSU championship) wins, and playing at Nebraska in’ 01, just walking out there in that 89,000 sea of red, just playing them was more media exposure than winning the I-AA national championship,” Farmer said.

Farmer is sort of exposed by the second quote. FCS teams play in large FBS venues all the time. App St is going to Michigan this season, for instance. Not to mention the fact that FCS schools beat FBS programs every year, and there is no long-lasting effect to those upsets, any more than when Troy pulls off an upset.

Big-time program fans don't respect Troy any more than they respect FCS programs, and never will. Florida fans found it extremely humorous that Florida State only beat Troy by a TD. I didn't hear anyone say, 'Oh, well Troy beat Missouri a few years back.' Very, very few casual fans would recall that.

The reaction by FSU fans themselves was pretty similar to the reaction by South Carolina fans at their single TD win over Wofford.

[Lionsrking]

Farmer is sort of exposed by the second quote. FCS teams play in large FBS venues all the time. App St is going to Michigan this season, for instance. Not to mention the fact that FCS schools beat FBS programs every year, and there is no long-lasting effect to those upsets, any more than when Troy pulls off an upset.

Big-time program fans don't respect Troy any more than they respect FCS programs, and never will. Florida fans found it extremely humorous that Florida State only beat Troy by a TD. I didn't hear anyone say, 'Oh, well Troy beat Missouri a few years back.' Very, very few casual fans would recall that.

The reaction by FSU fans themselves was pretty similar to the reaction by South Carolina fans at their single TD win over Wofford.

What's Scott Farmer going to say? He's on Troy's payroll, so of course he'll make that claim, but I think he knows better.

As for casual fans of big-time college football programs, they don't see a difference between low major FBS programs and any other level of college football...it's all inferior in their eyes. As a matter of fact, schools like Montana, Montana State and Appalachian State are often confused for being FBS among my circle of LSU friends. Same with Southern Illinois and Western Kentucky before they moved up.

[Zoo]

Like I said in another topic, I really don't have anything against the Sun Belt.

Well of course, Sun Belt teams sometimes absolutely obliterated when they play big time programs, but so do lots of FCS teams when they too play huge name programs.

That's college football for you. Two teams step on the field, the team with more will and determination to win will come out and play like it. The team that doesn't come close to playing up to their opponent's level, they will be physically and mentally dominated, and it will show on the scoreboard at the end of the game.

Or maybe that little team from the mountains that won Repeat FCS Championships can come into Ann Arbor with so much energy they can give Michigan a scare at the Big House. Or maybe the Mountaineers come out with so much will and determination they shock the College Football world by defeating Michigan and showing that David V.S. Goliath can result in the small team defeating the much larger and more known team.

[813Jag]

I have no disrespect for the Sun Belt but as many posters have said Joe Average doesn't view the Sun Belt any higher than an FCS conference. The Big Six FBS conferences are all that most people think about. You can look and football preview mag and see that.

[SoCon48]

I was struck by these quotes I noticed recently.

"Troy officials believe a regular-season home win over Missouri in 2004 garnered more nationwide exposure than the combined coverage awarded to Georgia Southern for its first four Division I-AA national titles. That’s what Troy assistant athletic director Scott Farmer, who worked in GSU’s athletic department for nearly two decades from 1982-99, said. "

“Beating Mississippi State in 2001 was bigger than any one of (GSU championship) wins, and playing at Nebraska in’ 01, just walking out there in that 89,000 sea of red, just playing them was more media exposure than winning the I-AA national championship,” Farmer said.

Since Troy was never a National Champion while they were in I-AA, he really wouldn't know.xcoffeex

[dbackjon]

First off, I was in Detroit for that game so I can tell you there were easily 3,000 Middle Tennessee fans that took the 10+ hour trip for the bowl game. But we heard often that a MAC directional school and a Sun Belt directional school wouldn't draw well in attendance even though Central Michigan was playing in their home state? In fact, that's garbage you guys predicted on this messageboard before the game was actually played. Your fans here anticipated bad attendance and bad Nelson Ratings for the Motor City Bowl between Middle Tennessee and Central Michigan. Instead, it drew over 54,000 in attendance--the most ever in the history of the bowl game despite having hosted teams from the Big East, Big 10, CUSA, and other MAC powers such as Toledo and Marshall in the past.

And the Nelson Ratings were higher than any game played prior to that date from any division.

The attendence had nothing to do with Sunbelt MTSU, and everything to do with Central Michigan being an hour or so away. We predicted bad MTSU attendence, and we were 100% correct. MTSU struggled to sell tickets - that is a fact. And to only sell 3,000 tickets for your "BIG-TIME" bowl game is pathetic.

[StillJonesin]

Farmer is sort of exposed by the second quote. FCS teams play in large FBS venues all the time.

Not really because they can play 4 or 5 of those games if they would like and they can get some of those teams to return a game at their place like Missouri. D1aa's don't play nearly as many games.



App St is going to Michigan this season, for instance. Not to mention the fact that FCS schools beat FBS programs every year, and there is no long-lasting effect to those upsets, any more than when Troy pulls off an upset.

Johnny said D1aa has one win over a major conference school with a winning record ever and that was in the early 90's vs 6-5 South Carolina and no top 25 win. Things like playing a top 25 team in your stadium on a Thursday night national TV do stick more than what you are suggesting. I have no connection to Troy but I recall that.



Big-time program fans don't respect Troy any more than they respect FCS programs, and never will. Florida fans found it extremely humorous that Florida State only beat Troy by a TD. I didn't hear anyone say, 'Oh, well Troy beat Missouri a few years back.' Very, very few casual fans would recall that.

I also think you underestimate even the casual fan.

[BearsCountry]

I know from experience on the Mizzou board, they would rather play a Sun Belt school or MAC school than an I-AA. They have said that plenty of times.

[RaiderInTheZone]

It's the classic American trait of of "living beyond your means." People are going into debt up to their eyeballs everyday in this country because they strive to live in the mansion on the hill or drive the Mercedes they can't pay for. That's what schools like Middle Tennessee, UL-Lafayette, Monroe, North Texas, etc., are essentially doing. Schools that choose to stay in the FCS understand their level and are content to stay there. That doesn't mean they don't strive to get better everyday, it's just that they aren't going to mortgage their future in order to appear to be something they're not. It's not about running around rubbing elbows with the best, it's about being the very best you can be within a reasonable level of expectation, nothing more, nothing less.

That's not true. Middle Tennessee operates positively in the green with a $15 million athletic budget. In fact, there is no Sun Belt team that currently operates in the red (citing source Equity in Athletics).

[RaiderInTheZone]

The attendence had nothing to do with Sunbelt MTSU, and everything to do with Central Michigan being an hour or so away. We predicted bad MTSU attendence, and we were 100% correct. MTSU struggled to sell tickets - that is a fact. And to only sell 3,000 tickets for your "BIG-TIME" bowl game is pathetic.

I SERIOUSLY doubt Nothern Iowa would take half that many fans on a shorter trip to Chattanooga if UNI was even remotely good enough to make to the 1-AA National title game. Seriously doubt it. And you guys did your fair share of scoffing Central Michigan too calling them a directional school that you guys would have no problem beating. Now you are changing your stories since the Motor City Bowl drew more the double the attendance of the 1-AA National title game. How convenient.

[SoCon48]

The attendence had nothing to do with Sunbelt MTSU, and everything to do with Central Michigan being an hour or so away. We predicted bad MTSU attendence, and we were 100% correct. MTSU struggled to sell tickets - that is a fact. And to only sell 3,000 tickets for your "BIG-TIME" bowl game is pathetic.

O-U-C-H!!

[youwouldno]

I also think you underestimate even the casual fan.

I don't think so. I live near DC and so rarely is my school (Furman) on TV, and only occasionally can I travel to the games themselves. So a lot of times I hang out at sports bars with friends of mine that are major program fans, and talk to other people there for the games. Some fans are very knowledgeable, but I have yet to encounter a single fan of a major program that has any respect whatsoever for the Sun Belt, and few respect the MAC or C-USA either. They know Troy is FBS, but don't care.

[walliver]

The University of South Carolina was routinely playing two Sunbelt teams every year. Gamecock fans were tired of playing teams they had never heard of, so, with a little help from the legislature, one Sunbelt game a year for the next 8 years has been replaced with a game against in in-state FCS team. The games will sell just as many tickets. There has been no mass revolt by Carolina fans. To most of them there is no difference between the two (FCS and Sunbelt), and they have at least heard of Wofford, Furman, Citadel and SCSU (they're the schools their bosses attended:D ).

To the "casual fan" there is BCS and everybody else is Division-II. (Sad .. but true).

[GreatAppSt]

Sunbelt STINKS!!!

[StillJonesin]

I don't think so. I live near DC and so rarely is my school (Furman) on TV, and only occasionally can I travel to the games themselves. So a lot of times I hang out at sports bars with friends of mine that are major program fans, and talk to other people there for the games. Some fans are very knowledgeable, but I have yet to encounter a single fan of a major program that has any respect whatsoever for the Sun Belt, and few respect the MAC or C-USA either. They know Troy is FBS, but don't care.


I guess it's all relative. You mentioned few in DC respected CUSA or perhaps cared.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a187/StillJonesing/2007-07-17_234737.png


Good thing the ones paying at that Washington DC based network or in Baltimore or the 7 other states that network is carried in do. That's 9 of 12 and 7 of 8 CUSA match ups we play. Those that don't respect us now by the end of the year we will be shoved down there throat enough in that market they should, or they could just ask one of the many Virginia fans in DC.

[youwouldno]

They can show ECU football on MASN all day long, it doesn't make any difference. Do you honestly believe Virginia Tech or Maryland fans care? If so, you are totally delusional.

[StillJonesin]

They can show ECU football on MASN all day long, it doesn't make any difference. Do you honestly believe Virginia Tech or Maryland fans care? If so, you are totally delusional.

We have history with Virginia Tech and play them next 9 straight years starting in September.....4 in Blacksburg, 4 in Greenville, and 1 neutral in Charlotte. They care. Go over to to either our board or theirs, there are plenty of long threads. Also College Game day is doing the game. Now that of course has more to do with tragedy but it was already going to be on ESPN. It can be a big game, Herbstret and Corso called the last game in our stadium on a thursday night the last time we played them in Greenville. Maryland I don't watch them or care about them either. They are several states away. It is funny though our old coach turned them down back in the late 90's when they called him for an interview. They didn't even draw as well as we did then.

[youwouldno]

We play Virginia Tech the next 9 straight years 4 in Blacksburg, 4 in Greenville, and 1 neutral in Charlotte. They care. Go over to to either our board or theirs, there are plenty of long threads. Also College Game day is doing the game. Now that of course has more to do with tragedy but it was already going to be on ESPN. It can be a big game, Herbstret and Corso called the last game in our stadium on a thursday night the last time we played them in Greenville.

Well, yes, when they play you they care about that game. Many fans pay attention to every game their team has. That isn't the point.

I'm not knocking ECU or C-USA. There's a big difference between that and the Sun Belt. My point was that, in bowl season, only the BCS bowls garner national attention. The rest are of concern only to the fans of the participants. And gamblers.

[StillJonesin]

Well, yes, when they play you they care about that game. Many fans pay attention to every game their team has. That isn't the point.

I'm not knocking ECU or C-USA. There's a big difference between that and the Sun Belt. My point was that, in bowl season, only the BCS bowls garner national attention. The rest are of concern only to the fans of the participants. And gamblers.


When you play a decade long home and home series its a little more than just a game. As far as the bowls you are knocking them but apparently more people still care about those smaller bowls since they outdraw in attendance and TV ratings the entire FCS division championship game the vast majority of the time since you say it's only those fans that care.

Everyone has access to a BCS bowl now you just have to put to finish in the top 14 now. If you can't do that you shouldn't be there. It's actually easier to go from a CUSA than the SEC. A team would have made it most years under these new rules and several would have had SOS in the 90's and 100's. You don't even have to go undefeated. TCU would have went in 2005 with a loss to 5-6 SMU for instance. The sun belt is improving and eventually someone in the Sun Belt will break through and get in the top 25.

[Bronco85]

I think Montana's schedule relative to the FCS was and will be tougher than Boise State's relative to the FBS simply because Montana is in one of the tougher FCS conferences while Boise State is not in one of the tougher FBS conferences. It's kind of like LSU in 2003. The Tigers played Louisiana Tech, Louisiana Monroe, Western Illinois, and a very down Arizona team in non conference play but still got into the BCS title game due to schedule strength because they play in the SEC.

UM is not in one of "the tougher FCS conferences" as much as UM is why the BSC sits anywhere near the top ends of the FCS conference rankings. Take UM out of the BSC and it plummets. As stated before, UM's budget, facilities, attendance, and institutional commitment absolutely dwarf all others in the BSC. UM has a middle of the road at best in-conference schedule. They get a pass here though because they play where they are able as the BSC is the only full sports D1FCS conference in their region. Their OOC, which they can control, is disapointing to me but I don't take them to task for it. They have dropped road games with upper end FCS teams like Hofstra to take on the Ft. Lewis' of the world at home at least in part because they make much more money for home games and wins are virtually assured. BSU on the other hand has budgets, attendance and facilities which place them in the middle of the WAC and likely are right where they should be for now. You are correct in that the BCS system favors AQ conferences. In 2004 UU was undefeated and ended up playing a mediocre Pitt in the Fiesta Bowl. I doubt though that many UU fans don't believe that this was a worthy and satisfying win as they became the first team from a non-AQ to make a BCS bowl. Interestingly, that year Auburn went undefeated in the vaunted SEC. They did not make the BCS Championship Game because their OOC opponents were LTU, Louisiana-Monroe, and the Citadel.

[bandit]

I don't understand this argument about Maryland and Virginia Tech fans "not caring" about East Carolina. So what? You think Ohio State and Texas fans care about Maryland and Virginia Tech? It's all relative.

There are plenty of casual football fans who watch alot of bowl games, not just BCS. There is a reason there is so many. If they were appealing only to the school fanbases and gamblers, nobody would bother.

And who cares what Maryland and Virginia Tech fans in DC think anyway? ECU is a successful program. They sell nearly twice as many tickets to home games as most of the top FCS programs. They have attractive TV deals and have a history of success. Are they a failure because they aren't USC? Most schools - are not - USC.

I understand that fans of FCS schools want to belittle FBS schools because they want to convince themselves they are fine in FCS and wouldn't want to be in FBS anyway. Fine. Alot of schools are in fact better off in FCS, some might be successful in FBS. It's up for each school to decide what is in its best interest.

I don't see why FCS fans don't give respect to schools like MTSU who decided to be ambitious and see if they could take that next step up. To me, that is courageous. And I don't know why FCS fans would want to try and lessen what schools like ECU have achieved. Why would one schools success reflect negatively on FCS in general? Success should be applauded, IMHO.

[StillJonesin]

I think Boise State proved it could be done to everyone including teams looking to move up in the FCS. Plus if you do it from the so called "have nots" you get more respect. Most everyone likes the underdog story and long after the national champ in 2006 is forgot people will recall Boise vs Oklahoma. If they upgraded their OOC some and played teams like Georgia, Arkansas etc from time to time they have in the past on the road and ran the table this year there would be real controversy about what to do with them in the national title picture.

[youwouldno]

This is an FCS board. The constant FBS talk is grating. ECU is miles ahead of where most FCS programs could, or will ever be. That's my whole point. Aspiring FCS programs have little hope of surpassing mid-major FBS programs, beyond the fact of course they will never win a title.

[blueraiderfn]

I don't understand this argument about Maryland and Virginia Tech fans "not caring" about East Carolina. So what? You think Ohio State and Texas fans care about Maryland and Virginia Tech? It's all relative.

There are plenty of casual football fans who watch alot of bowl games, not just BCS. There is a reason there is so many. If they were appealing only to the school fanbases and gamblers, nobody would bother.

And who cares what Maryland and Virginia Tech fans in DC think anyway? ECU is a successful program. They sell nearly twice as many tickets to home games as most of the top FCS programs. They have attractive TV deals and have a history of success. Are they a failure because they aren't USC? Most schools - are not - USC.

I understand that fans of FCS schools want to belittle FBS schools because they want to convince themselves they are fine in FCS and wouldn't want to be in FBS anyway. Fine. Alot of schools are in fact better off in FCS, some might be successful in FBS. It's up for each school to decide what is in its best interest.

I don't see why FCS fans don't give respect to schools like MTSU who decided to be ambitious and see if they could take that next step up. To me, that is courageous. And I don't know why FCS fans would want to try and lessen what schools like ECU have achieved. Why would one schools success reflect negatively on FCS in general? Success should be applauded, IMHO.

What you fail to realize is: These guys are willing to belittle any program if they think it will win the argument, or make them better in their own minds. Instead of stating something like: "1A is not an attractive offer for us, but if others want to participate, good luck to them," we get this drivel that you see on this board...Bad sportsmen, bad attitudes, and arrogance from people that compete on the lowest level of division one football.

"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

[blueraiderfn]

Schools that choose to stay in the FCS understand their level and are content to stay there.

NO, You stay there because it's not an important move to your alumni base. If it were and people were calling the school president and demanding a move up, you would, just like we did. More excuses. If you don't want to make the move, don't, but stop belittling other conferences to make yourselves feel better...It's juvenile.

[blueraiderfn]

I don't understand this argument about Maryland and Virginia Tech fans "not caring" about East Carolina. So what? You think Ohio State and Texas fans care about Maryland and Virginia Tech? It's all relative.


Yeah, and Sunbelt, WAC, MAC and Conf USA fans don't care about 1AA programs other than when they act like 12 year olds and make derogatory comments about other programs that are trying to better themselves.

[GGASU]

I SERIOUSLY doubt Nothern Iowa would take half that many fans on a shorter trip to Chattanooga if UNI was even remotely good enough to make to the 1-AA National title game.


Zone you do realize that UNI brought 5000-6000 fans to the championship game in 2005. xwhistlex

[RaiderInTheZone]

Zone you do realize that UNI brought 5000-6000 fans to the championship game in 2005. xwhistlex

I didn't even know Northern Iowa competed in the 1-AA national title game in 2005 and I live in Tennessee. I am, however, aware of Appalachian State having been there this last year and the year before last. Some 1-AA schools are known, and others are not, I suppose.

[RaiderInTheZone]

O-U-C-H!!

A confederacy of dunces on AGS. 3,000 attended. We sold 8,000.

[blueraiderfn]

A confederacy of dunces on AGS. 3,000 attended. We sold 8,000.

Yeah, and we did it in the middle of winter in Detroit. Any one that knows a person from Tennessee realizes that it's impossible to get us to go to a place where it's cold, especially if it involves an outdoor activity. As I recall, we sold more tickets and had more in attendance than Memphis did to the same bowl game the year before. I love watching some 1AA teams play and I don't begrudge them for staying 1AA.

[SoCon48]

8 whole 000? Well, whoop de damn do. That's big time football alright.

[blueraiderfn]

8 whole 000? Well, whoop de damn do. That's big time football alright.

It was the middle of December and 10 hours from Murfreesboro and we were given very little notice.

[SoCon48]

Yep, that's what we go through come play-off time.

[dbackjon]

A confederacy of dunces on AGS. 3,000 attended. We sold 8,000.

You sold 8,000? What, did you have a rich alum buy 5,000 the last day? You hadn't sold 2,000 a few days before the game. And MTSU had far more time to sell tickets than FCS teams have to sell playoff tickets xcoffeex xcoffeex

[Appstate29]

Yeah, and Sunbelt, WAC, MAC and Conf USA fans don't care about 1AA programs other than when they act like 12 year olds and make derogatory comments about other programs that are trying to better themselves.

or when they get beat by them xeekx xeekx xeekx

[henfan]

I love watching some 1AA teams play and I don't begrudge them for staying 1AA.

That's one thing we can all agree on.xnodx

[theboro]

The attendence had nothing to do with Sunbelt MTSU, and everything to do with Central Michigan being an hour or so away. We predicted bad MTSU attendence, and we were 100% correct. MTSU struggled to sell tickets - that is a fact. And to only sell 3,000 tickets for your "BIG-TIME" bowl game is pathetic.

That's an exceptionally ignorant comment from a fan of a school that averaged 6600 for HOME games.
That's PATHETIC.

Now go back and play in your sand box.

[mcveyrl]

That's an exceptionally ignorant comment from a fan of a school that averaged 6600 for HOME games.
That's PATHETIC.

Now go back and play in your sand box.

I would guess that it's a pretty informed comment from somebody that used to live in MTSU's backyard.

[theboro]

I would guess that it's a pretty informed comment from somebody that used to live in MTSU's backyard.

Right... a UNA fan talking smack.

Let's compare
MT attendance last year: 22K +
We took 3K fans to a bowl game 10 hours away the day after Christmas in our first game after getting kicked in the nuts in what amounted to the conference championship game.

Fans of schools like UNA talking trash about I-A schools is like me saying I can knock out Holyfield. I can say it all I want because I won't have to prove it.

[RaiderInTheZone]

8 whole 000? Well, whoop de damn do. That's big time football alright.

I think it's pretty good. We didn't know until early December that we were even going to a bowl game or where it'd be. At least fans of 1-AA schools know whether or not they are in the postseason by then and are always capable of making AND cancelling reservations at other sites that are predetermined.

We will do things our way, and you can do things your way. Best of luck to you and your team this year.

[youwouldno]

I think the fact that low- and mid-major FBS fans come onto a FCS board to talk smack pretty much says everything that needs to be said.

[mcveyrl]

Yeah, and we did it in the middle of winter in Detroit. Any one that knows a person from Tennessee realizes that it's impossible to get us to go to a place where it's cold, especially if it involves an outdoor activity. As I recall, we sold more tickets and had more in attendance than Memphis did to the same bowl game the year before. I love watching some 1AA teams play and I don't begrudge them for staying 1AA.

I really don't care that much about any of this, but I do want to point out that the Motor City Bowl is played at Ford Field, an indoor facility. But, I do see your point, I'm sure it was cold otherwise and I probably wouldn't have traveled with JMU there.


Right... a UNA fan talking smack.

Let's compare
MT attendance last year: 22K +
We took 3K fans to a bowl game 10 hours away the day after Christmas in our first game after getting kicked in the nuts in what amounted to the conference championship game.

Fans of schools like UNA talking trash about I-A schools is like me saying I can knock out Holyfield. I can say it all I want because I won't have to prove it.

I don't think he was talking smack, but stating facts (with a little opinion on what those facts meant).

With all due respect, MTSU's no Holyfield. Don't get me wrong, 22K is a great figure and I'd be happy if we averaged that (would need a bigger stadium), but let's not get ridiculous...

[RaiderInTheZone]

I think the fact that low- and mid-major FBS fans come onto a FCS board to talk smack pretty much says everything that needs to be said.

I'm not talking smack. I'm just here defending Middle Tennessee and the Sun Belt.

I know I made a comment saying that Elon, Wofford, The Citadel, and Samford are below the standards of teams Appalachian and Georgia Southern should be playing, but other than that, I have made no direct attacks at 1-AA schools nor have I made any comment suggesting any 1-AA school should consider dropping football or moving down a division because I feel they "suck."

Never made such comments.

[SoCon48]

I think the fact that low- and mid-major FBS fans come onto a FCS board to talk smack pretty much says everything that needs to be said.

Isn't that the truth!!

[henfan]

MT attendance last year: 22K +

The NCAA indicates that MTSU's home attendance in Murfreesboro was 19,347 last season. That doesn't take into account the attendance for the 'home' game played in Nashville against I-A Louisville.

[dbackjon]

That's an exceptionally ignorant comment from a fan of a school that averaged 6600 for HOME games.
That's PATHETIC.

Now go back and play in your sand box.


How is that ignorant? I can read - which obviously someone from a two-bit school with no standards like MTSU can't. All of those FACTS were in the Tennessean and the Daily News Journal. And since you seem to be knowledge-impaired, those are the local newspapers. If I went to MTSU, and lived in the dump that is Murfreesboro, I wouldn't be bragging on that.

Now go back and play in your litter box....

[theboro]

How is that ignorant? I can read - which obviously someone from a two-bit school with no standards like MTSU can't. All of those FACTS were in the Tennessean and the Daily News Journal. And since you seem to be knowledge-impaired, those are the local newspapers. If I went to MTSU, and lived in the dump that is Murfreesboro, I wouldn't be bragging on that.

Now go back and play in your litter box....

Right.
I know the numbers.
I also know that if the biggest game my school hosted was Portland State, then I would officially stop being a fan of college football.

Have fun in the minors.

Wanna compare athletic budgets?
Wanna compare enrollments?

How about overall athletic success? (Sears Cup Standgings: MT #100, UNA #158)

Let's see here, we have an enrollment nearing 25K, in a town of nearly 100K, 30 miles from a Top 30 media market.

You have undergrad enrollment of 13K, in a town of 58K, and you're 150 miles from Phoenix.
If I had to live in that dump called Flagstaff, I would hope an Apache wouldn't cut my throat for firewater.

Standards you say?
Guaranteed admission to MT: 3.0 and a 22 on the ACT
Guaranteed admission to NA: 3.0 and a 22 on the ACT

Those are the facts, fact boy.
Enjoy the small time.

[youwouldno]

Have fun in the minors.


Ah, another low-major FBS fan shows his true colors.

I got news for ya... the gap between the top FBS programs, and MTSU, is a LOT wider than the gap between MTSU and the top FCS programs.

But that doesn't stop the pissing contest. After all, what else do weak FBS programs have? They don't compete for championships. They can't compete against the top conferences. They don't get elite recruits. So they come on an FCS board and brag about being 'big time.'

The only thing 'big time' about the Sun Belt is the FBS label that accompanies it, much the same as non-scholarship FCS teams technically belong to a subdivision that really has nothing to do with them.

[89Hen]

...the gap between MTSU and the top FCS programs...
There isn't one.

[RaiderInTheZone]

How is that ignorant? I can read - which obviously someone from a two-bit school with no standards like MTSU can't. All of those FACTS were in the Tennessean and the Daily News Journal. And since you seem to be knowledge-impaired, those are the local newspapers. If I went to MTSU, and lived in the dump that is Murfreesboro, I wouldn't be bragging on that.

Now go back and play in your litter box....

C'mon, man. Murfreesboro is a very nice city with up-scale housing. The city of nearly 100,000 residents is the county seat in the fourth fastest growing county in the country. Don't let your distaste for the university muddle your thinking about the area. It makes you look foolish. Anyone who has visited this area recently will tell you it is far from a "dump."

I've been to cities that are dumps. Murfreesboro is far from it.

[terrierbob]

[QUOTE=RaiderInTheZone;607342]C'mon, man. Murfreesboro is a very nice city with up-scale housing. The city of nearly 100,000 residents is the county seat in the fourth fastest growing county in the country. Don't let your distaste for the university muddle your thinking about the area. It makes you look foolish. Anyone who has visited this area recently will tell you it is far from a "dump."

I've been to cities that are dumps. Murfreesboro is far from it.

************************************************** ******
It is nice. We visited there when we were looking at schools for my stepson. It was one of only three universities to have a sound production/engineering major. The other two were IU (where he now attends) and UCLA, I believe.

[bandit]

Aspiring FCS programs have little hope of surpassing mid-major FBS programs, beyond the fact of course they will never win a title.

I think several FCS schools have the potential to be highly successful at the FBS level... but you never know unless you give it a try and make it happen.

We'll see where the Sun Belt is in 10 years. With more $$$, more bowls, more TV games in college football, it wouldn't surprise me for the league to continue to improve in visibility as well as product on the field.

[dbackjon]

Right.
I know the numbers.
I also know that if the biggest game my school hosted was Portland State, then I would officially stop being a fan of college football.

Have fun in the minors.

Wanna compare athletic budgets?
Wanna compare enrollments?

How about overall athletic success? (Sears Cup Standgings: MT #100, UNA #158)

Let's see here, we have an enrollment nearing 25K, in a town of nearly 100K, 30 miles from a Top 30 media market.

You have undergrad enrollment of 13K, in a town of 58K, and you're 150 miles from Phoenix.
If I had to live in that dump called Flagstaff, I would hope an Apache wouldn't cut my throat for firewater.

Standards you say?
Guaranteed admission to MT: 3.0 and a 22 on the ACT
Guaranteed admission to NA: 3.0 and a 22 on the ACT

Those are the facts, fact boy.
Enjoy the small time.


OK, Murfreesboro State boy - Murfreesboro is a Freaking DUMP. The scum of the metro area move there. Have you been Flagstaff? Beautiful scenery, pine forests, 12,000 foot mountains. To compare the two shows how STUPID Boro Staters are.

And your racial slur is beyond disgusting. Say goodbye to AGS - we are much too classy a joint for rejects like you.

When is the last time the buro's made the NCAAs? When was the last time they finished top three in something?

What programs/degrees does Boro State have that are Nationally recognized? ZERO - about half dozen less than NAU.

My partner took a couple of classes at MTSU - he couldn't believe how incredibly stupid the professors and the students were. Compared to Murray and the rest of the OVC, MTSU was the weak academic sister.

Bigger media market? No one in Nashville, even MTSU students, gives a damn about the blueboys...

[Old Montana State Grad]

Right.
I know the numbers.
I also know that if the biggest game my school hosted was Portland State, then I would officially stop being a fan of college football.

Have fun in the minors.

Wanna compare athletic budgets?
Wanna compare enrollments?

How about overall athletic success? (Sears Cup Standgings: MT #100, UNA #158)

Let's see here, we have an enrollment nearing 25K, in a town of nearly 100K, 30 miles from a Top 30 media market.

You have undergrad enrollment of 13K, in a town of 58K, and you're 150 miles from Phoenix.
If I had to live in that dump called Flagstaff, I would hope an Apache wouldn't cut my throat for firewater.

Standards you say?
Guaranteed admission to MT: 3.0 and a 22 on the ACT
Guaranteed admission to NA: 3.0 and a 22 on the ACT

Those are the facts, fact boy.
Enjoy the small time.

This Assiniboine is getting extremely upset letting your arrogant, condescending and belittling tone continue without comment or retribution. I would request the Mods censure, even ban this racist individual and somehow assist the kids being singled out in Bozeman, MT get a fair trial especially because they chose to attend school there to escape what they could not escape (while they're at it).

[Zoo]

I think several FCS schools have the potential to be highly successful at the FBS level... but you never know unless you give it a try and make it happen.

We'll see where the Sun Belt is in 10 years. With more $$$, more bowls, more TV games in college football, it wouldn't surprise me for the league to continue to improve in visibility as well as product on the field.

I agree with you there. I say we should give the Sun Belt Conference time to grow, isn't it only less the seven years old?

[RaiderInTheZone]

OK, Murfreesboro State boy - Murfreesboro is a Freaking DUMP. The scum of the metro area move there. Have you been Flagstaff? Beautiful scenery, pine forests, 12,000 foot mountains. To compare the two shows how STUPID Boro Staters are.

And your racial slur is beyond disgusting. Say goodbye to AGS - we are much too classy a joint for rejects like you.

When is the last time the buro's made the NCAAs? When was the last time they finished top three in something?

What programs/degrees does Boro State have that are Nationally recognized? ZERO - about half dozen less than NAU.

My partner took a couple of classes at MTSU - he couldn't believe how incredibly stupid the professors and the students were. Compared to Murray and the rest of the OVC, MTSU was the weak academic sister.

Bigger media market? No one in Nashville, even MTSU students, gives a damn about the blueboys...


Those are nothing but assinine comments coming from a disgruntled fan of a 1-AA school that would likely never quality for late postseason play in the 1-AA playoffs.

I don't mind you being pissed off at Boro, but you are making comments blindly and without having done any research. I feel 100% confident in saying that you have never been to Murfreesboro, Tennessee to even know if it's a "dump" as you believe it to be. I've never been to Flagstaff, but I'm not going to make a judgment about a city I've never seen. I will say this, Murfreesboro is growing much faster than Flagstaff.

And just because your partner thought MT professors and students were dumb, doesn't mean other people think the same. Your partner probably had a hard time relating to their teaching styles. Middle Tennessee is a great school and not the "weak academic sister" as you say. MT's minimum entrance standards are higher than Tennessee State's, UT-Martin's, Chattanooga's, Tennessee Tech's, and Austin Peay's. MT is the #1 choice of midstate high school senior valedictorians and salutatorians. I hardly see how that makes us a "weak academic sister."

You want to talk programs. If you would've done an ounce of research, you'd find out that Middle Tennessee's school of Recording Industry is one of the Top 2 RIM schools in America next to Cal-Berkeley. The Aerospace, Equestrian, and Music programs are also widely respected. MT does very well despite limited funding from the Tennessee Board of Regents who spends most of their time appeasing MT's smaller neighbors like TSU with the Geier Consent Decree to limit funding to the larger MT because of it's primarily white caucasian enrollment.

MT has done very well for itself and has fought many outside forces to retain it's credible image.

[dbackjon]

Raider - I lived in Nashville for 5 years - traveled through and to Murfreesboro many times.

I am glad that Flagstaff doesn't have the runaway growth of tract homes, trailer parks and meth labs like Murfreesboro does. Runaway sprawl does not mean better.

And BTW - less than a week before the MCB, you had only sold 2,600 tickets. I can clearly remember your AD Massaro (whom I think is doing a great job, BTW) on Nashville talk radio begging people to buy tickets, even if they couldn't go....
http://www.goblueraiders.com/content.cfm/id/23073

[89Hen]

And BTW - less than a week before the MCB, you had only sold 2,600 tickets. I can clearly remember your AD Massaro (whom I think is doing a great job, BTW) on Nashville talk radio begging people to buy tickets, even if they couldn't go....
"Middle Tennessee Director of Athletics Chris Massaro announced today that ticket sales for the Motor City Bowl is at 2,610 as of close of business on Tuesday. "We feel like the 2,610 is a good number for us," said Massaro. "I want to thank our fans and supporters for their public demonstration of support for our first bowl game in the I-A era."
xsmhx That's sad. I feel like the courtroom scene in A Few Good Men...

These are fourteen letters written asking, no begging for a bowl bid and upon hearing the Blues finally got a bowl bid do you know how many people bought tickets?... no one outside of family members of the players.

We'll bring 2,610 to Williamsburg later this month for a regular season game. Closer to 10,000 to Navy for that regular season game.

[theboro]

Raider - I lived in Nashville for 5 years - traveled through and to Murfreesboro many times.

I am glad that Flagstaff doesn't have the runaway growth of tract homes, trailer parks and meth labs like Murfreesboro does. Runaway sprawl does not mean better.

And BTW - less than a week before the MCB, you had only sold 2,600 tickets. I can clearly remember your AD Massaro (whom I think is doing a great job, BTW) on Nashville talk radio begging people to buy tickets, even if they couldn't go....
http://www.goblueraiders.com/content.cfm/id/23073

And a week before the Motor City Bowl, Northern Arizona's football team was through.

Median Income Murfreesboro, 39,705
Median Income Flagstaff, 37, 146
We must have nicer trailers in Murfreesboro than in Flagstaff.

As far as national programs, let's see, Recording Industry, Aerospace, Nursing, Education.

But hey, glad you moved. You can watch Portland State come to town to play your Lumberjacks, and hope you can get Matt Leinart's autograph during training camp.

Also while you're talking trash about other sports.
We had our worst year in basketball (with a losing record) in over five years, and UNA finished exactly 5 spots ahead in the RPI. That's hilarious.

We're better than you in almost every sport. We have triple your attendance in every sport. Our athletic budget is almost double what yours is.

We're bigger and better. Sorry you're so offended.

[dbackjon]

And a week before the Motor City Bowl, Northern Arizona's football team was through.

Median Income Murfreesboro, 39,705
Median Income Flagstaff, 37, 146
We must have nicer trailers in Murfreesboro than in Flagstaff.

As far as national programs, let's see, Recording Industry, Aerospace, Nursing, Education.

But hey, glad you moved. You can watch Portland State come to town to play your Lumberjacks, and hope you can get Matt Leinart's autograph during training camp.

Also while you're talking trash about other sports.
We had our worst year in basketball (with a losing record) in over five years, and UNA finished exactly 5 spots ahead in the RPI. That's hilarious.

We're better than you in almost every sport. We have triple your attendance in every sport. Our athletic budget is almost double what yours is.

We're bigger and better. Sorry you're so offended.

Until you have actually seen Flagstaff, STHU. Otherwise, your ignorance shines through.....

Has MT ever finished top three in the NCAA in ANY sport?

And I will never be offended by anyone from Murfreesboro. I only feel pity for you, and your manufactured housing/trailertrash/methlab city....xcoffeex xcoffeex

[theboro]

Until you have actually seen Flagstaff, STHU. Otherwise, your ignorance shines through.....

Has MT ever finished top three in the NCAA in ANY sport?

And I will never be offended by anyone from Murfreesboro. I only feel pity for you, and your manufactured housing/trailertrash/methlab city....xcoffeex xcoffeex

Seen Flagstaff. It's nice, if you like being in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do.

My ignorance shines through?

Violent crime rate:
Flagstaff - 7.1 per 1000
Murfreesboro - 6.1 per 1000

In 2004 according to federal records, there were 523 kg of meth seized in Arizona and only 70 in Tennessee. While this doesn't break down to the city level, the fact that Arizona had nearly eight times the amount and Flagstaff is No. 3 in Arizona in drug-related arrests, it's a safe bet that Flagstaff FAR surpasses Murfreesboro in meth.

So, to recap. We took more than 3,000 people to the Motor City Bowl (more than UNA's season ticket holders.)
We finished ahead of UNA in the Sears all-sports standings.
We have the same admission standards as UNA.
We have more students.
We are on the same level academically.

Murfreesboro is bigger.
People in Murfreesboro make more money.
Murfreesboro is safer.
There are less drugs seized in Murfreesboro every year.

You are so hung up on facts. There they are.

Sure you'll come back with trailer trash, meth. yada yada yada.
Funny, you can resort to name calling.

[dbackjon]

You might want to check your facts...

Tennessee has 1000% the meth seizures as Arizona. Tennessee ranks behind only Missouri in amounts...

Just look here at 2004..
http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/File/Investigations/Methamphetamine/meth_state_rankings_2004.pdf

Flagstaff is far superior to the "boro", which is a dump. End of story.

Yup - plenty to do in the Boro - if you like Meth, mosquitos and bad teeth.

[theboro]

You might want to check your facts...

Tennessee has 10% the meth seizures as Arizona. Tennessee ranks behind only Missouri in amounts...

Just look here at 2004..
http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/File/Investigations/Methamphetamine/meth_state_rankings_2004.pdf

Flagstaff is far superior to the "boro", which is a dump. End of story.

Yup - plenty to do in the Boro - if you like Meth, mosquitos and bad teeth.

Coming from a guy who loves hunky guys in speedos and bad I-AA football, I'll take that as a compliment.

End of story.

[RaiderInTheZone]

Until you have actually seen Flagstaff, STHU. Otherwise, your ignorance shines through.....

Has MT ever finished top three in the NCAA in ANY sport?

And I will never be offended by anyone from Murfreesboro. I only feel pity for you, and your manufactured housing/trailertrash/methlab city....xcoffeex xcoffeex

It must have been a LONG time since you've seen Murfreesboro. The city has increased in population by over 40,000 in the past 6 years. With it, high-scale retail outlets and hotels have located there. When's the last time you've been to Murfreesboro? I don't see meth labs being a problem there like it is in surrounding counties south and east of Rutherford County.

As far at MT finishing in the Top 3 in the NCAA in ANY sport? We won the men's doubles tennis national title over defending national champion Illinois from the prestigious Big 10 Conference back in May.

[RaiderInTheZone]

You might want to check your facts...

Tennessee has 10% the meth seizures as Arizona. Tennessee ranks behind only Missouri in amounts...

Just look here at 2004..
http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/File/Investigations/Methamphetamine/meth_state_rankings_2004.pdf

Flagstaff is far superior to the "boro", which is a dump. End of story.

Yup - plenty to do in the Boro - if you like Meth, mosquitos and bad teeth.

I feel so sorry for you. You haven't seen Murfreesboro in probably 20+ years or more which makes you completely out of the loop on the goings on there. You haven't seen The Avenue, Campus Crossings, or the renovations to Stones River Mall. You haven't seen Middle Tennessee's new football stadium, renovations to the basketball arena, new softball stadium, and new track and soccer stadium. You haven't seen Greek Row, the Scarlett Commons, or the Womack Apartments on the Middle Tennessee campus. The area is VERY nice. You really are cheating yourself by making assumptions on a place you have no point of reference in making comments about.

[dbackjon]

Sorry boys, but I moved from Nashville 6 months ago. I am quite familar with the current goings on in the Boro. IF you had taken reading comprehension at MTCC, you would have noted that I already stated that in this thread - right about the time y'all started the insults by wishing "that an Apache would slit my throat for firewater"

Stones River Mall high-end? xlolx Trust me, Ross Dress for Less is NOT high end - try going to Green Hills Mall in Nashville for high end. Murfreesboro has been, and always will be the armpit of Middle Tennessee. Fortunately for you guys, Memphis is a bigger dump, so you don't have the state title. Now fly away back to your meth labs

[theboro]

Sorry boys, but I moved from Nashville 6 months ago. I am quite familar with the current goings on in the Boro. IF you had taken reading comprehension at MTCC, you would have noted that I already stated that in this thread - right about the time y'all started the insults by wishing "that an Apache would slit my throat for firewater"

Stones River Mall high-end? xlolx Trust me, Ross Dress for Less is NOT high end - try going to Green Hills Mall in Nashville for high end. Murfreesboro has been, and always will be the armpit of Middle Tennessee. Fortunately for you guys, Memphis is a bigger dump, so you don't have the state title. Now fly away back to your meth labs

Don't you have guys in Speedos to chase?

[RaiderInTheZone]

Don't you have guys in Speedos to chase?

That's just plain creepy. You know when the lumberjack fan mentioned his "partner" went to school at Middle Tennessee, I thought he was talking about a business partner. Then I saw that thing about hunky guys in speedos in his signature, and I knew that maybe that "partner" thing was just a term he used loosely to reference something else. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with it. It's just not my chosen lifestyle.

[dbackjon]

Don't you have guys in Speedos to chase?

Pics?xsmiley_wix

[89Hen]

xarguex Sheesh, this was even too much for me... you know it must be bad. :p