FCS's place in Division 1 football

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Given the amount of chatter regarding programs looking to move up to FBS (as presently constructed) and the idea that FCS is a "sinking ship" has caused a little loss of perspective imo; well at least potentially. Depending on who the the ultimate defections are I'm of the belief FCS could come out ahead of whatever the second tier of FBS football amounts to. Especially if the AAC and MWC is able to hitch their wagon to the "upper-crust" of college football if a defining line is drawn within FBS.

Even if this current power program/smaller program FBS model continues to exist there's a good chance FCS will be home to more flagship/land grant institutions than the second tier of FBS. The amount of national universities (schools with more academic/cultural breadth) along with the historically significantly HBCU's could potentially be in favor of FCS in the longer term. Not to mention numerous AAU affiliated institutions. So long as Delaware, Maine, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Montana, Montana State, North Dakota, North Dakota State, South Dakota, South Dakota State, William & Mary, UC-Davis, Cal Poly (I know I'm missing schools) remain committed to the sub-division there's an excellent foundation. These are schools with political and financial influence well beyond your typical SBC, CUSA (Rice!!), ASUN, WAC etc member. The reality is, the second tier of FBS has the potential to be home to far more lost souls than FCS in terms of regional schools with little pull and small endowments lost in the shadows of their in-state brethren.

The kicker for FCS remains the enigma that is the Ivy League. If they would enter the playoffs it completely re-energizes it due to the public's and media's curiosity with the Ancient 8. Their inclusion would immediately drive up the value of the playoff broadcasting and rights and help FCS maintain attention during early and mid December. NDSU vs Montana State on ESPN2 is still MUCH better theater than Temple vs Georgia Southern in the Boca Bowl. A Harvard or Yale or Princeton vs Delaware semifinal would result in a giddy ESPN. ESPN has proven they're willing to give FCS some exposure via Game Day's, August kick-off games, playoff games etc. Add the Ivies in the playoffs and those bones tossed FCS's way come with more meat on 'em.

Even without the Ivies inclusion in the playoffs just their presence in FCS keeps it relevant in terms of having world renown institutions with tremendous resources, a high level of recruiting, excellent staff pay, top notch facilities etc. Not to mention the Ivy League's overall influence in college athletics and academia. The Big 10 and Notre Dame act as a similar influential guide among the academic AND athletic elite.

The history and importance of the HBCU's can't be ignored. As long as their history and tradition remains connected to FCS I'm grateful. Likewise, the Harvard-Yale and Lehigh-Lafayette rivalry games.

The established playoff format is in FCS's favor. As long as FBS operates with great entitlement FCS's way of crowning a champ (even if it's the same one) will always have value and general public favoritism. The current FBS bowl/playoff system is a disaster relative to their Division 1 little brother's setup.

[VandalBasher]

I give this an A.

The Ivy League will never enter the playoffs. I will remind you of this at your deathbed. I see even bigger changes for the SWAC and MEAC. A&T, Florida A&M and possibly JSU will look to advance to the FBS level, soon.

The marker of success is not in championships, but in athletic department budgets. Once you have the cash, you can make more.

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivy League isn't part of the playoffs because it holds no significance for them. It's the reason Notre Dame didn't accept a bowl bid until 1970.

One of the structural problems with the subdivision is it's increasingly a collection of the so-called "directional" schools and not a grouping of schools with consistent approaches to athletics. How do you reconcile Dixie State with Dartmouth? Well, one way is intersectional games and the playoffs is one way to do it. But the playoffs are misaligned (I don't want to use the word "fixed") because it plays well to the same teams and the same conferences, much like the NCAA basketball tournament in the 1960's when UCLA only had to play the Big Sky and the WAC teams before making the Final Four.

How many OVC schools have ever played in the Northeast? How many CAA schools go to the South?

Now if the subdivision really wants to get creative, why not open the playoff to all interested Division I teams? Sure, Alabama isn't returning the call. But if the MAC or C-USA wanted to participate, why not at least conceptually consider it?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The Ivy League isn't part of the playoffs because it holds no significance for them. It's the reason Notre Dame didn't accept a bowl bid until 1970.

One of the structural problems with the subdivision is it's increasingly a collection of the so-called "directional" schools and not a grouping of schools with consistent approaches to athletics. How do you reconcile Dixie State with Dartmouth? Well, one way is intersectional games and the playoffs is one way to do it. But the playoffs are misaligned (I don't want to use the word "fixed") because it plays well to the same teams and the same conferences, much like the NCAA basketball tournament in the 1960's when UCLA only had to play the Big Sky and the WAC teams before making the Final Four.

How many OVC schools have ever played in the Northeast? How many CAA schools go to the South?

Now if the subdivision really wants to get creative, why not open the playoff to all interested Division I teams? Sure, Alabama isn't returning the call. But if the MAC or C-USA wanted to participate, why not at least conceptually consider it?

I'd preface the Ivy comment with "it doesn't hold significance to administrators". It's been well documented the importance (or potential importance) of the FCS playoffs to coaches and players. In fact, they've become FAR more vocal to their desires to expand the Ivy football model in the last 5 years or so. Which happens to coincide with the improved quality of play within the IL.

I think if you did a count there's more, or it's trending this way, "directional schools" in the G5/second tier of FBS. You're always going to have a separation of haves and have nots at every level. Notre Dame relative to UL-Monroe is within the same context as Dixie State to Dartmouth. Back in the day the MAAC, Big West, MAC and lots of independents were able to operate in their own little bubbles as "less thans" within the 1-AA and 1-A framework. They were happy with the ambiguity and ability to "half-ass" it so to speak because TV deals and media exposure simply weren't on the narrow band radar of the decision makers.

I don't think playoffs are conducive to amateur football given the physical dominant nature. In Pennsylvania it's generally the same HS teams who compete for district and state titles. At the college level D3, D2 and FCS have very little parity overall. Yet, people are more willing to accept the status quo with the general sentiment "it played out on the field".

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I give this an A.

The Ivy League will never enter the playoffs. I will remind you of this at your deathbed. I see even bigger changes for the SWAC and MEAC. A&T, Florida A&M and possibly JSU will look to advance to the FBS level, soon.

The marker of success is not in championships, but in athletic department budgets. Once you have the cash, you can make more.

I tend to agree. But, I will not entirely rule it out so long as it remains a topic of discussion beyond message boards and tailgates.

Secondly, the marker of success is institutional wealth/reach and alumni giving/engagement. The 15 schools that comprise the Ivy League and Patriot League account for 95% of the "wealth" that exists within FCS? Perhaps close to 50% of division 1 football overall?

[DFW HOYA]

The 15 schools that comprise the Ivy League and Patriot League account for 95% of the "wealth" that exists within FCS? Perhaps close to 50% of division 1 football overall?

Define "wealth".

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Define "wealth".

ability to discriminate/choose/influence....and i'm not talking about anything to do with race...

[walliver]

I don't see the draw, other than ego, for all these schools wanting to play FBS football. As it is, only a handful of G5 schools can compete with the top half of the P5, and none are consistently close to Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson or Notre Dame. The idea that the big dogs are going to break away from the NCAA so that the also-ran FBS teams will be at the top of the NCAA pyramid makes no sense. Many current FBS schools are eliminating non-revenue sports. If the P5 do leave, and I think that unlikely, I suspect there will be a real movement for reducing the number of scholarships across all levels. As for recent move-ups, I feel App State has been the most successful, but they have currently hit the Sun Belt glass ceiling and have nowhere higher to go unless there is major upheaval in the current conference alignments - they are stuck playing early December Bowl games just so ESPN has something to show on weeknights.

The ongoing issue for FCS is not having a real identity. There are "flagship schools" from small states, some of whom dominate in their local media markets. There are a significant number of private schools, especially along the East Coast. There are many conferences with no private schools. There are directional public schools operating in the shadows or major P5 programs. There are HBCU's with long histories. And to top off the cake, there are schools with D3 level non-scholarship football promoting themselves as D-I. It will be very challenging to create a public identity out of that.

I personally never liked the name change from I-AA. That term at least made it clear that it was D-I.

[Sitting Bull]

The Ivy League isn't part of the playoffs because it holds no significance for them. It's the reason Notre Dame didn't accept a bowl bid until 1970.

One of the structural problems with the subdivision is it's increasingly a collection of the so-called "directional" schools and not a grouping of schools with consistent approaches to athletics. How do you reconcile Dixie State with Dartmouth? Well, one way is intersectional games and the playoffs is one way to do it. But the playoffs are misaligned (I don't want to use the word "fixed") because it plays well to the same teams and the same conferences, much like the NCAA basketball tournament in the 1960's when UCLA only had to play the Big Sky and the WAC teams before making the Final Four.

How many OVC schools have ever played in the Northeast? How many CAA schools go to the South?

Now if the subdivision really wants to get creative, why not open the playoff to all interested Division I teams? Sure, Alabama isn't returning the call. But if the MAC or C-USA wanted to participate, why not at least conceptually consider it?

I don’t see why a national championship in football wouldn’t hold any significance. Maybe it would take a PL team to win one to get their attention.

[DFW HOYA]

I don’t see why a national championship in football wouldn’t hold any significance. Maybe it would take a PL team to win one to get their attention.

Short answer: the Harvard-Yale game takes precedence.

Longer answer: The IL takes pride in those teams which, decades later, can claim an undefeated season. It's happened 13 times since 1954, but would presumably never happen if there was a playoff. The glory of the 2014 Harvard team, for example, would be tarnished in the eyes of the Cantabrigians if they had lost 44-10 to Northern Iowa a week (or even two) later. It's also a fact of life that football isn't as important as it once was on these campuses and wrapping it up by Thanksgiving is considered a timely one. Were they to bid on a game, the Ivies would likely draw next to no attendees in the early part of December. What's a Saturday in this region like in December? If there was a game in Ithaca, NY on Dec. 7, 2019, the weather archive reports a low of 9, high 28, winds from the north at 22. (Yes, the Ivy fans will correctly note that Cornell had as much chance to have been in the 2019 playoffs as Georgetown, but the Northeast is not a friendly place for football in December.)

The kids want it. The coaches want it. Harvard and Yale don't. Case closed.

[mvfcfan]

Our place is second tier. People only care about the P5 and maybe your Boise State, Cincy, or UCF type team from the MWC and AAC. The Suck Belt, CUSA, and MAC are pretty much as irrelevant as FCS.

[bonarae]

Meanwhile...

I was an Ivy fan here first on this board. But when ETSU brought football back, I was tempted to support multiple teams here, but I hesitated and eventually gave in after one or two years.

I am so disillusioned by H/Y not taking action on how the other 6 in the Ancient Eight view the playoffs. But then, why is UChicago all in for playoff participation albeit in D-III? They had only been able to crack the Top 25 once in their entire D-III life so far and after a losing streak within seasons, ended up missing out on the Road to the D-III championship (twice already in recent memory).

OK, the regionalization bias in the FCS is another issue at hand for our subdivision. The issue also exists in D-II and D-III, albeit in different variants. I believe this should go away outright for our brands to grow... xchinscratchx

[Go Green]

Longer answer: The IL takes pride in those teams which, decades later, can claim an undefeated season. It's happened 13 times since 1954, but would presumably never happen if there was a playoff. The glory of the 2014 Harvard team, for example, would be tarnished in the eyes of the Cantabrigians if they had lost 44-10 to Northern Iowa a week (or even two) later. It's also a fact of life that football isn't as important as it once was on these campuses and wrapping it up by Thanksgiving is considered a timely one. Were they to bid on a game, the Ivies would likely draw next to no attendees in the early part of December. What's a Saturday in this region like in December? If there was a game in Ithaca, NY on Dec. 7, 2019, the weather archive reports a low of 9, high 28, winds from the north at 22. (Yes, the Ivy fans will correctly note that Cornell had as much chance to have been in the 2019 playoffs as Georgetown, but the Northeast is not a friendly place for football in December.)



If an undefeated Ivy team loses in the first round of the playoffs, the team's standing SHOULD be tarnished in the eyes of alums.

As for the weather, UNH seems to do just fine hosting games...

[OhioHen]

How many CAA schools go to the South?


All of them - every time they have a road game against James Madison, Richmond, William & Mary, or Elon.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If an undefeated Ivy team loses in the first round of the playoffs, the team's standing SHOULD be tarnished in the eyes of alums.

As for the weather, UNH seems to do just fine hosting games...

This idea that the Ivy League would embarrass themselves in the playoffs is crazy. The PL has sent 5 undefeated teams to the playoffs ('98 Lehigh, '00 Lehigh, '01 Lehigh, '03 Colgate, '18 Colgate) and those teams are 5-0 in the first round of the playoffs. If '87 and '91 Holy Cross were allowed to participate I say with confidence it would be 7-0. The IL would do just as well.

An undefeated PL or IL squad is nationally legit. I'm not concerned about those who want to spite the Ivy League because of the league's administrators stance on football "irks them". That ultimately has NOTHING to do with the quality of the teams.

[caribbeanhen]

All of them - every time they have a road game against James Madison, Richmond, William & Mary, or Elon.

you beat me too it

[A&T AGGIE96]

Everyone knows the FCS place in Div 1 football. We don’t have a place. It’s FBS and everyone else.

If we could afford it most FCS schools would leave the sub division at the drop of a dime.

FCS football and school are an after thought in most states as most FCS aren’t flagship schools in most states.

Here in NC nobody “wants” to be FCS...we just can’t afford to to compete with FBS schools.

Some schools don’t care...UNC Charlotte and APP state don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell at a FBS national championship...hell even the ACC schools in NC are long shots...it’s not about that.

It’s about clout, and FCS schools don’t have it.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Short answer: the Harvard-Yale game takes precedence.

Longer answer: The IL takes pride in those teams which, decades later, can claim an undefeated season. It's happened 13 times since 1954, but would presumably never happen if there was a playoff. The glory of the 2014 Harvard team, for example, would be tarnished in the eyes of the Cantabrigians if they had lost 44-10 to Northern Iowa a week (or even two) later. It's also a fact of life that football isn't as important as it once was on these campuses and wrapping it up by Thanksgiving is considered a timely one. Were they to bid on a game, the Ivies would likely draw next to no attendees in the early part of December. What's a Saturday in this region like in December? If there was a game in Ithaca, NY on Dec. 7, 2019, the weather archive reports a low of 9, high 28, winds from the north at 22. (Yes, the Ivy fans will correctly note that Cornell had as much chance to have been in the 2019 playoffs as Georgetown, but the Northeast is not a friendly place for football in December.)

The kids want it. The coaches want it. Harvard and Yale don't. Case closed.

Cold weather hasn't stopped playoff games at UNH, Youngstown, Illinois State, Montana or Montana State. Harrisonburg, VA (JMU) isn't exactly tropical either.

[unknown3]

I don't see the draw, other than ego, for all these schools wanting to play FBS football. As it is, only a handful of G5 schools can compete with the top half of the P5, and none are consistently close to Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson or Notre Dame. The idea that the big dogs are going to break away from the NCAA so that the also-ran FBS teams will be at the top of the NCAA pyramid makes no sense. Many current FBS schools are eliminating non-revenue sports. If the P5 do leave, and I think that unlikely, I suspect there will be a real movement for reducing the number of scholarships across all levels. As for recent move-ups, I feel App State has been the most successful, but they have currently hit the Sun Belt glass ceiling and have nowhere higher to go unless there is major upheaval in the current conference alignments - they are stuck playing early December Bowl games just so ESPN has something to show on weeknights.

The ongoing issue for FCS is not having a real identity. There are "flagship schools" from small states, some of whom dominate in their local media markets. There are a significant number of private schools, especially along the East Coast. There are many conferences with no private schools. There are directional public schools operating in the shadows or major P5 programs. There are HBCU's with long histories. And to top off the cake, there are schools with D3 level non-scholarship football promoting themselves as D-I. It will be very challenging to create a public identity out of that.

I personally never liked the name change from I-AA. That term at least made it clear that it was D-I.

Ask Coastal which was better, this past year or the entire time they were in the Big South. Ask GSU, Georgia Southern, or App if they'd prefer to come back. The allure is, one season like Coastal just had, or Troy beating LSU, or Georgia Southern beating Florida. It gets you more press than evening winning an FCS championship. That.. is why people are picking bowl games over the FCS playoffs. It just is what it is...and a huge reason why the SWAC couldnt care less about the playoffs for the most part. They dominate attendance and have a product that people like experiencing, national championships or not. Being a potential Boise State is better than being a potential NDSU.. in other words.

[Hammerhead]

Cold weather hasn't stopped playoff games at UNH, Youngstown, Illinois State, Montana or Montana State. Harrisonburg, VA (JMU) isn't exactly tropical either.

Add Eastern Washington and South Dakota State to the list of schools that can have cold weather in December. :) The other three Dakota schools plus UNI have indoor stadiums.

[caribbeanhen]

Ask Coastal which was better, this past year or the entire time they were in the Big South. Ask GSU, Georgia Southern, or App if they'd prefer to come back. The allure is, one season like Coastal just had, or Troy beating LSU, or Georgia Southern beating Florida. It gets you more press than evening winning an FCS championship. That.. is why people are picking bowl games over the FCS playoffs. It just is what it is...and a huge reason why the SWAC couldnt care less about the playoffs for the most part. They dominate attendance and have a product that people like experiencing, national championships or not. Being a potential Boise State is better than being a potential NDSU.. in other words.

would love too see Ivy vs SWAC, FCS football needs some of this

[TheValleyRaider]

Cold weather hasn't stopped playoff games at UNH, Youngstown, Illinois State, Montana or Montana State. Harrisonburg, VA (JMU) isn't exactly tropical either.

2003 was a few years ago, but CNY can handle playoff football
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xAL2jB75Muw/hqdefault.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

2003 was a few years ago, but CNY can handle playoff football
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xAL2jB75Muw/hqdefault.jpg

There's something, well many things, awesome about an on-campus playoff game! I don't care if it's a low/mid-major basketball tournament final or a football playoff game, the energy and atmosphere is "special". Even if the stands aren't always packed...

Colgate played UMass under similar conditions a week before. IIRC, one of the Minutemen team busses slid off 12 enroute to Hamilton.

[Laker]

There's something, well many things, awesome about an on-campus playoff game! I don't care if it's a low/mid-major basketball tournament final or a football playoff game, the energy and atmosphere is "special". Even if the stands aren't always packed...

Colgate played UMass under similar conditions a week before. IIRC, one of the Minutemen team busses slid off 12 enroute to Hamilton.

My friends from Tarleton might remember this 2018 playoff game. It was the worst conditions I have ever watched a game in, but I have been much colder at windier games. I could barely see the field at times. Great day for the Mavs to wear gold jerseys. As you said, the atmosphere was magical. It just kept getting bigger and bigger on that 27 play drive.


https://i1.wp.com/www.msureporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/football-1-mansoor.jpg?resize=800%2C445&ssl=1

[TheValleyRaider]

There's something, well many things, awesome about an on-campus playoff game! I don't care if it's a low/mid-major basketball tournament final or a football playoff game, the energy and atmosphere is "special". Even if the stands aren't always packed...

Colgate played UMass under similar conditions a week before. IIRC, one of the Minutemen team busses slid off 12 enroute to Hamilton.

The UMass game was actually worse because it was slightly warmer, meaning the snow was wet and slushy. Nasty stuff. WIU was more snow, but it was much thicker.

[CockyGeek]

I'm ready to make the move. More scholarships, better players, more money, better schedules. The playoffs have never been kind to us anyway.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Given the amount of chatter regarding programs looking to move up to FBS (as presently constructed) and the idea that FCS is a "sinking ship" has caused a little loss of perspective imo; well at least potentially. Depending on who the the ultimate defections are I'm of the belief FCS could come out ahead of whatever the second tier of FBS football amounts to. Especially if the AAC and MWC is able to hitch their wagon to the "upper-crust" of college football if a defining line is drawn within FBS.

Even if this current power program/smaller program FBS model continues to exist there's a good chance FCS will be home to more flagship/land grant institutions than the second tier of FBS. The amount of national universities (schools with more academic/cultural breadth) along with the historically significantly HBCU's could potentially be in favor of FCS in the longer term. Not to mention numerous AAU affiliated institutions. So long as Delaware, Maine, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Montana, Montana State, North Dakota, North Dakota State, South Dakota, South Dakota State, William & Mary, UC-Davis, Cal Poly (I know I'm missing schools) remain committed to the sub-division there's an excellent foundation. These are schools with political and financial influence well beyond your typical SBC, CUSA (Rice!!), ASUN, WAC etc member. The reality is, the second tier of FBS has the potential to be home to far more lost souls than FCS in terms of regional schools with little pull and small endowments lost in the shadows of their in-state brethren.

The kicker for FCS remains the enigma that is the Ivy League. If they would enter the playoffs it completely re-energizes it due to the public's and media's curiosity with the Ancient 8. Their inclusion would immediately drive up the value of the playoff broadcasting and rights and help FCS maintain attention during early and mid December. NDSU vs Montana State on ESPN2 is still MUCH better theater than Temple vs Georgia Southern in the Boca Bowl. A Harvard or Yale or Princeton vs Delaware semifinal would result in a giddy ESPN. ESPN has proven they're willing to give FCS some exposure via Game Day's, August kick-off games, playoff games etc. Add the Ivies in the playoffs and those bones tossed FCS's way come with more meat on 'em.

Even without the Ivies inclusion in the playoffs just their presence in FCS keeps it relevant in terms of having world renown institutions with tremendous resources, a high level of recruiting, excellent staff pay, top notch facilities etc. Not to mention the Ivy League's overall influence in college athletics and academia. The Big 10 and Notre Dame act as a similar influential guide among the academic AND athletic elite.

The history and importance of the HBCU's can't be ignored. As long as their history and tradition remains connected to FCS I'm grateful. Likewise, the Harvard-Yale and Lehigh-Lafayette rivalry games.

The established playoff format is in FCS's favor. As long as FBS operates with great entitlement FCS's way of crowning a champ (even if it's the same one) will always have value and general public favoritism. The current FBS bowl/playoff system is a disaster relative to their Division 1 little brother's setup.

You're making some pretty questionable assumptions, here.

1. Even if congress couldn't nip a P5 separation in the bud before it gets off the ground and there weren't other legal and practical challenges, the P5 won't take the AAC with them. As far as they're concerned the difference between the AAC and the rest of the G5 is hair splitting. And they especially won't bring the MWC who would basically be another MAC without Boise and SDSU.

2. Even if the G5 got marooned as their own division what makes you think they'd stick with the bowl system? They'd create their own playoff and how will the FCS supplant that on TV? Take any playoff game not involving NDSU or JMU and probably every G5 bowl gets better ratings. The lowest-valued G5 TV contract (CUSAs) is mid six figures per school per year. I don't think any FCS league makes any money at all on TV.

3. I would like to see the Ivies in the playoffs but don't think it'll happen. They just don't need the exposure and if it were legal they probably wouldn't play any non-conference games at all. To them football might as well be a club sport.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're making some pretty questionable assumptions, here.

1. Even if congress couldn't nip a P5 separation in the bud before it gets off the ground and there weren't other legal and practical challenges, the P5 won't take the AAC with them. As far as they're concerned the difference between the AAC and the rest of the G5 is hair splitting. And they especially won't bring the MWC who would basically be another MAC without Boise and SDSU.

2. Even if the G5 got marooned as their own division what makes you think they'd stick with the bowl system? They'd create their own playoff and how will the FCS supplant that on TV? Take any playoff game not involving NDSU or JMU and probably every G5 bowl gets better ratings. The lowest-valued G5 TV contract (CUSAs) is mid six figures per school per year. I don't think any FCS league makes any money at all on TV.

3. I would like to see the Ivies in the playoffs but don't think it'll happen. They just don't need the exposure and if it were legal they probably wouldn't play any non-conference games at all. To them football might as well be a club sport.


The AAC is still considered a power conference in college basketball which adds value to the league. Given the resources and overall pull these schools have I don't see it being left behind. These schools can point to endowment, academic and research reach as well as community impact to prop themselves up. As institutions the AAC schools have more in common with those in the the ACC or Big 12 than it does the SBC or CUSA.

I personally think Air Force is the most important program in the MWC in terms of actual influence. There will be acts of congress passed that prevents the Falcons, Middies and Black Knights from being relegated to second class college football citizens. The "Commander and Chief Trophy" carries way too much significance for that to happen. Boise State, SDSU, Colorado State, Wyoming, Fresno State etc each add their own % of value which helps the MWC's position of strength.

Who is going to sponsor the championship for G5 schools? Will the NCAA be willing to take that on? The NCAA has never sponsored a 1-A/FBS playoff. If not, then the G5 (or whatever it becomes) will need ESPN or some other media outlet to subsidize the venture (like the current FBS playoff). The beauty of the NCAA sponsoring the FCS playoffs is the guaranteed "NCAA Championship" contract that ensures the broadcasts, of varying degrees, FCS/D2/D3 football, basketball (D1, D2, D3) volleyball, golf, track and field, softball, baseball, soccer, hockey, field hockey, wrestling, lacrosse etc playoffs and championship games/matches.

[Daytripper]

The AAC is still considered a power conference in college basketball which adds value to the league. Given the resources and overall pull these schools have I don't see it being left behind. These schools can point to endowment, academic and research reach as well as community impact to prop themselves up. As institutions the AAC schools have more in common with those in the the ACC or Big 12 than it does the SBC or CUSA.

I personally think Air Force is the most important program in the MWC in terms of actual influence. There will be acts of congress passed that prevents the Falcons, Middies and Black Knights from being relegated to second class college football citizens. The "Commander and Chief Trophy" carries way too much significance for that to happen. Boise State, SDSU, Colorado State, Wyoming, Fresno State etc each add their own % of value which helps the MWC's position of strength.

Who is going to sponsor the championship for G5 schools? Will the NCAA be willing to take that on? The NCAA has never sponsored a 1-A/FBS playoff. If not, then the G5 (or whatever it becomes) will need ESPN or some other media outlet to subsidize the venture (like the current FBS playoff). The beauty of the NCAA sponsoring the FCS playoffs is the guaranteed "NCAA Championship" contract that ensures the broadcasts, of varying degrees, FCS/D2/D3 football, basketball (D1, D2, D3) volleyball, golf, track and field, softball, baseball, soccer, hockey, field hockey, wrestling, lacrosse etc playoffs and championship games/matches.

The P5 split is about football and football only. It doesn't rally impact basketball. Just like it is now, you can be FCS or G5 and still play with the big boys in basketball. But the enormous difference in football between the Alabamas, TAMUs, Clemsons, etc., and the FBS bottom feeders and the FCS is impossible justify. It's why the ACC will be left behind.

- - - Updated - - -


The AAC is still considered a power conference in college basketball which adds value to the league. Given the resources and overall pull these schools have I don't see it being left behind. These schools can point to endowment, academic and research reach as well as community impact to prop themselves up. As institutions the AAC schools have more in common with those in the the ACC or Big 12 than it does the SBC or CUSA.

I personally think Air Force is the most important program in the MWC in terms of actual influence. There will be acts of congress passed that prevents the Falcons, Middies and Black Knights from being relegated to second class college football citizens. The "Commander and Chief Trophy" carries way too much significance for that to happen. Boise State, SDSU, Colorado State, Wyoming, Fresno State etc each add their own % of value which helps the MWC's position of strength.

Who is going to sponsor the championship for G5 schools? Will the NCAA be willing to take that on? The NCAA has never sponsored a 1-A/FBS playoff. If not, then the G5 (or whatever it becomes) will need ESPN or some other media outlet to subsidize the venture (like the current FBS playoff). The beauty of the NCAA sponsoring the FCS playoffs is the guaranteed "NCAA Championship" contract that ensures the broadcasts, of varying degrees, FCS/D2/D3 football, basketball (D1, D2, D3) volleyball, golf, track and field, softball, baseball, soccer, hockey, field hockey, wrestling, lacrosse etc playoffs and championship games/matches.

The P5 split is about football and football only. It doesn't really impact basketball. Just like it is now, you can be FCS or G5 and still play with the big boys in basketball. But the enormous difference in football between the Alabamas, TAMUs, Clemsons, etc., and the FBS bottom feeders and the FCS is impossible to justify. It's why the ACC will be left behind.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The P5 split is about football and football only. It doesn't really impact basketball. Just like it is now, you can be FCS or G5 and still play with the big boys in basketball. But the enormous difference in football between the Alabamas, TAMUs, Clemsons, etc., and the FBS bottom feeders and the FCS is impossible to justify. It's why the ACC will be left behind.

The basketball matters because it's part of the institutional make-up. It's just another resource that they have, and have at a high level (at least traditionally). It keeps the conference part of a cool kids" clique" when it comes to scheduling, media rights and decision making. Tulane is able to host Oklahoma at Yulman Stadium (not the Super Dome) to start the 2021 seasons because Tulane is well Tulane; a highly respected school with great wealth. Despite what people want to think about Tulane football, the school itself has influence within New Orleans and WELL beyond. It's why Temple was first able to host Notre Dame, and secondly produced a team worthy of the contest being the site of "Game Day" and broadcasted during ABC's primetime slot.

There's certain dynamics at play that won't allow these schools to be "reclassified" for lack of a better term.

If Rice wanted to put up more of an effort they would be in a better position than CUSA. The school simply operates athletics with a profound level of indifference. The SWC really left a bad taste in their mouth....

[DFW HOYA]

If Rice wanted to put up more of an effort they would be in a better position than CUSA. The school simply operates athletics with a profound level of indifference. The SWC really left a bad taste in their mouth....

Rice was the odd man out in the 1995 conference realignment (UConn was in 2013). They lost 80 years of tradition with Texas, Texas, A&M, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech, SMU (and, more recently. Houston) for a replacement cast of UAB, Florida Atlantic, Middle Tennessee, Old Dominion, Western Kentucky, etc., schools who have zero ties with the Rice tradition.

Imagine if Lehigh was sitting in the Pioneer League right now. Now imagine it's 2-9 every year playing Butler and Drake in Goodman Stadium...and Lafayette is long gone. Who shows up?

[Baron Sardonicus]

Several people on this board profess to believe that FBS will soon shed lots of members. The suggestion is that Sun Belt and C-USA schools (to name a few) should accept this as inevitable. Drop to FCS now, so they can take their rightful place (?) beside [insert name of your conference here].

Excuse me for being Mr. Obvious, but has anyone noticed that in reality, the opposite is happening?

It's no longer 1978, and the power-whatever conferences don't need NCAA restructuring in order to keep most TV revenue for themselves. FCS is a money pit. Any football school that can afford 85 scholarships, and is willing to offer them, wants to go FBS (e.g. WAC, A-Sun/United). Even some schools that can't really afford the scholarships will hustle their state legislatures for FBS funding.

On our current course, FCS will ultimately be populated by schools that are either under financial stress or are preoccupied with a 1950s notion of amateurism. And if I'm correct, why would the NCAA membership keep FCS? Might as well toss the Dayton Rule, eliminate FCS, and send its leftover programs into D-II and D-III football. Sure, the Ivy League won't like having its football reclassified into D-III any more than they liked I-AA...so cry me a river.

FCS should not exist simply to give schools a football way station en route to D-I. Put the D-II scholarship limit back where it used to be...60?...and the problem is solved. Let NAIA have its niche with low scholarship football.

Looking forward to seeing South Dakota State football on a major network in 2041.

[OhioHen]

2003 was a few years ago, but CNY can handle playoff football
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xAL2jB75Muw/hqdefault.jpg
Yet look at the (goose) egg the Raiders laid in Chattanooga a few weeks later when there were some pre-game flurries.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Rice was the odd man out in the 1995 conference realignment (UConn was in 2013). They lost 80 years of tradition with Texas, Texas, A&M, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech, SMU (and, more recently. Houston) for a replacement cast of UAB, Florida Atlantic, Middle Tennessee, Old Dominion, Western Kentucky, etc., schools who have zero ties with the Rice tradition.

Imagine if Lehigh was sitting in the Pioneer League right now. Now imagine it's 2-9 every year playing Butler and Drake in Goodman Stadium...and Lafayette is long gone. Who shows up?

Rice wasn't the only "odd man out" in 1995 -- SMU, Houston and TCU were also left behind at the time when the major Texas schools went to the Big 12. I don't think they have torpedoed the idea of caring about athletics as Mr. Lehigh insinuates. They were winning national championships in baseball not that long ago.

Not impossible that Rice gets an invite to replace UCONN as the 12th AAC member. I would think that the likes of Navy, Tulane, Tulsa and SMU could possibly have the clout to bring Rice into the mix, given their histories playing each other.

[Go Green]

Rice wasn't the only "odd man out" in 1995 -- SMU, Houston and TCU were also left behind at the time when the major Texas schools went to the Big 12. I don't think they have torpedoed the idea of caring about athletics as Mr. Lehigh insinuates. They were winning national championships in baseball not that long ago.

.

Football is really the discussion here. My understanding is that Rice and the others were not pulling their weight attendance-wise as compared to the other old SWC schools. Hence, they were not invited to the Big 12. (And Baylor only got the invite because Ann Richards demanded it).

[NY Crusader 2010]

You're making some pretty questionable assumptions, here.

1. Even if congress couldn't nip a P5 separation in the bud before it gets off the ground and there weren't other legal and practical challenges, the P5 won't take the AAC with them. As far as they're concerned the difference between the AAC and the rest of the G5 is hair splitting. And they especially won't bring the MWC who would basically be another MAC without Boise and SDSU.

2. Even if the G5 got marooned as their own division what makes you think they'd stick with the bowl system? They'd create their own playoff and how will the FCS supplant that on TV? Take any playoff game not involving NDSU or JMU and probably every G5 bowl gets better ratings. The lowest-valued G5 TV contract (CUSAs) is mid six figures per school per year. I don't think any FCS league makes any money at all on TV.

3. I would like to see the Ivies in the playoffs but don't think it'll happen. They just don't need the exposure and if it were legal they probably wouldn't play any non-conference games at all. To them football might as well be a club sport.

If you asked me in 2006, I would have predicted the Ivy League would be participating in the playoffs by now. As of today, I don't think it will ever happen. Not sure there is any appetite to dump non-conference games. Ivies tend to play roughly the same non-league teams every year against traditional rivals. Cornell-Colgate, Harvard-Holy Cross, Brown-URI, Dartmouth-Holy Cross, Dartmouth-UNH, Columbia-Fordham (hasn't been played in a few years now); Penn v. in-state PL schools.

[DFW HOYA]

Football is really the discussion here. My understanding is that Rice and the others were not pulling their weight attendance-wise as compared to the other old SWC schools. Hence, they were not invited to the Big 12. (And Baylor only got the invite because Ann Richards demanded it).

There's a certain urban legend to the Baylor /Texas tech adds (the governor of Texas was a Baylor alum, the Lt. Gov. went to Tech), but in reality, if they wanted to get to 12, those were the picks.

TCU was really bad in the 1980's and early 1990's - two bowl bids in 30 years.
SMU was still in full death penalty rebuild: 3-40-3 in SWC play since 1989
Houston was a Top 10 team as late as 1990 but had four straight losing seasons and a 1-10 mark in 1994
Rice was the initial reason the larger schools wanted out in the first place--the SWC had split revenues at the gate and most of Rice's crowds were from other schools.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Several people on this board profess to believe that FBS will soon shed lots of members. The suggestion is that Sun Belt and C-USA schools (to name a few) should accept this as inevitable. Drop to FCS now, so they can take their rightful place (?) beside [insert name of your conference here].

Excuse me for being Mr. Obvious, but has anyone noticed that in reality, the opposite is happening?

It's no longer 1978, and the power-whatever conferences don't need NCAA restructuring in order to keep most TV revenue for themselves. FCS is a money pit. Any football school that can afford 85 scholarships, and is willing to offer them, wants to go FBS (e.g. WAC, A-Sun/United).Even some schools that can't really afford the scholarships will hustle their state legislatures for FBS funding.

On our current course, FCS will ultimately be populated by schools that are either under financial stress or are preoccupied with a 1950s notion of amateurism. And if I'm correct, why would the NCAA membership keep FCS? Might as well toss the Dayton Rule, eliminate FCS, and send its leftover programs into D-II and D-III football. Sure, the Ivy League won't like having its football reclassified into D-III any more than they liked I-AA...so cry me a river.

FCS should not exist simply to give schools a football way station en route to D-I. Put the D-II scholarship limit back where it used to be...60?...and the problem is solved. Let NAIA have its niche with low scholarship football.

Looking forward to seeing South Dakota State football on a major network in 2041.

I'm actually of the belief that very little will happen. Basically what exits now will be the status quo for the foreseeable future except post Covid will cause for a few more twists and turns financially. The P5 has created their little bubble, level of autonomy which has worked pretty darn well for them in terms of media rights and playoff accessibility. The AAC and MWC live like the Big East and AAC do in basketball minus the media bestowed "power conference" moniker. They recruit at a high level, they have great exposure, the schools have clout but the depth of quality teams and overall resources the schools possess might be a 1/4 step behind. The AAC and MWC can kick and scream about winning national titles but so long as they're on TV, have scheduling prowess and remain in the "national conversation" life will be pretty good football wise.

The AAC's issues are far more related to basketball than football. Basketball imo is a better investment than football for 98% of division 1 schools. I would much rather have Temple focus on basketball than football. I applaud UConn's decision to return to the Big East.

The financially strapped, lower end FBS schools can't keep subsidizing their programs via student fees and government funding. The government assistance has already dried up in several states; Illinois is a mess. The political power struggles that exists within states will never allow the likes of App State to jump ahead of UNC for funding or Georgia State to pass UGA to finance a FBS football related project. IMO, some of these lower tier public FCS/FBS institutions should be D2. They would be if they were in Pennsylvania or Minnesota. To suggest a school will be "hustling" state legislature to fund football is a serious reach imo given the current financial climate within state's budgets, academia and college athletics.

I personally believe that so long as there's a significant presence of flagship-state/public schools and national universities (some with big time bball programs) with money and legitimacy the subdivision will be fine. Villanova's or PFL Butler's vision of athletics is hardly "archaic" relative to UL-Lafayette or FAU because the 'Cats and Bulldogs play FCS football. The Ivy League is home to excellent D1 athletic programs top to bottom despite living in their own world when it comes to football. The best decision Villanova ever made was to say no to the Big East and FBS football.

The NCAA has made zero indication they will sponsor a playoff at the FBS level. Until that happens the FCS playoffs will be a protected entity in terms of operating costs and media as the NCAA's highest level of "championship football".

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Rice was the odd man out in the 1995 conference realignment (UConn was in 2013). They lost 80 years of tradition with Texas, Texas, A&M, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech, SMU (and, more recently. Houston) for a replacement cast of UAB, Florida Atlantic, Middle Tennessee, Old Dominion, Western Kentucky, etc., schools who have zero ties with the Rice tradition.

Imagine if Lehigh was sitting in the Pioneer League right now. Now imagine it's 2-9 every year playing Butler and Drake in Goodman Stadium...and Lafayette is long gone. Who shows up?

Rice football has struggled for most of my life. Even as a SWC program they were well off the radar relative to Texas, Texas A&M, Arkansas and Houston. I vividly remember when Ken Hatfield left Clemson for Rice in the early 90's. Hatfield was a pretty successful coach at Clemson but couldn't please the faithful so he took his talents to Rice just as the SWC was about to disband. He did have a modest amount of success in Houston but nothing that created any sort of momentum.

Rice basketball has 4 tournament appearances in their history; none since 1970. Their baseball program is by far their most prominent "relevant" athletic endeavor. While they haven't returned to their 2005-2010 level it's still a Top 25 level program generally speaking.

I don't know if Lehigh would allow themselves to be put in that position of apathy. Just like I don't believe Lehigh would have a decade without a winning season ala Lafayette. The leadership is strong enough to formulate a viable plan to avoid catastrophic pitfalls.