Can Anyone Unravel the Cornell Riddle?

[carney2]

In my mind (a dangerous place to be) Cornell should be at or near the top of the Ivy football standings every year and should be an out and out FCS football juggernaut. Consider:

Cornell is huge: 13,500 undergrads, and 19,600 total students in Ithaca. The FCS track record indicates that large state universities (see below) seem to have some built in advantages in our FCS football thing.

The football facilities are well above average. Schoellkopf Field seats almost 26,000, and The Crescent is a great place to watch a game.

Cornell is Ivy League (but, see below): It is a world renowned educational institution - one of those few schools in the world where their name on your diploma means more than yours. Whatever magic and/or snob appeal that works for Harvard, Yale and Princeton should, to some extent, also be working for Cornell.

Cornell has a beautiful campus in a bucolic setting. Unless you really like urban universities and/or think that the school is too big, you will probably like Cornell if you've ever walked the campus.

Cornell is the state university of New York. (I'll bet that at least a few of you are saying "That's news to me.") Cornell consists of 7 colleges, and an applicant applies to, and is admitted by, one of these colleges, not Cornell University. Three of the colleges are "private" and charge a significantly higher tuition. Of these three, the College of Arts & Sciences is generally thought to be the "Ivy League" portion of Cornell with the College of Engineering not far behind. The remaining colleges are the "state university" portion of the school with lower tuition and, I would assume, lower admission standards for state residents.

New York high school football does not have quite the reputation of Florida, Texas or California, but it is a populous state that produces many players who can and do excel at the FCS level. With a high name recognition, state university tuition rates and, presumably, lower admissions standards (for state residents) than most of the rest of the Ivy League, one would think that Coprnell has some built in advantages.

Still, we have to go back over 35 years - to the Ed Marinaro era - to find much quality football being played high above Cayuga's waters. Why is that?

[OL FU]

Interesting, let me ask one question on the value of Cornell degree (my lack of knowledge with Cornell and not that it matters). In the lines of business I have been in, Cornell generally got rave reviews for hotel management and other tourism businesses ( in fact in the hotel world they seem to have no competition) etc. and certain other specific business courses but no where near the overall acclaim of the other Ivy schools. Is this impression correct?

[Ivytalk]

I think it's fairer to call Cornell a "land grant" university. Only four of its schools receive state funding. Arts & Sciences, which is the jewel in the crown, is private. Cornell suffers from several recruiting disadvantages, IMO. One is its perception -- rightly or wrongly -- as a "second-tier" Ivy school, behind H-Y-P. That can hurt in competing for the same talent pool.Another is its location. While beautiful, the Ithaca campus is in the middle of nowhere. Harvard has Boston; Princeton is even more beautiful than Cornell and close to New York; Yale is urban and fairly close to NYC. A third is facilities: Cornell's football stadium, while offering a splendid fall-foliage view, is a pretty ordinary place when compared to the classic stadia of H and Y and to Princeton's spiffy new venue. Just my xtwocentsx .

[Go...gate]

Any Colgate student or grad has the answer:

CORNELL SUCKS!!!

Just kidding :) .

Cornell is a beautiful campus in a great college town and great region (Finger Lakes - a nice place to sail, BTW.) Not that isolated, as other fine colleges such as Wells (my sister's alma mater) and Ithaca are very close by. Hard to understand why they are not a powerhouse in the Ivy League or eastern FCS football generally. Seems that when Cornell wants to have a dominant program, it happens (see hockey and lacrosse). Accordingly, one would think that this is a lack of commitment than anything else.

[Dane96]

Cornell IS NOT THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF NY. It is the STATE'S LAND GRANT INSTITUTION.

That being so, there is ONE PROGRAM, Environmental Studies, which is STATE MANDATED, meaning they accept top-notch students...but a shade below Ivy normal standards. The program is tiny.

What Cornell often does, is accept their "allotment" of NYS residents, even those who have IVY grades, to this program to satisfy requirements.

Once in, you can transfer into the liberal arts program.

IVYTALK has it down to a "t".

[RichH2]

While we all can quibble about Cornell's status in New York, the reality is that it does have more flexibility than the other ivies but that flexibility is still ltd by the AI. Unlikely they could just import massachusetts' backfield and roll over the league. They do not have the facilities or money that P-H-Y can bring to the table.

[MplsBison]

what is AI?

[carney2]

Cornell IS NOT THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF NY. It is the STATE'S LAND GRANT INSTITUTION.

Once in, you can transfer into the liberal arts program.

I stand corrected. Cornell is New York's "Land Grant Institution." Not sure what difference it makes for this discussion, however.

Theoretically, one can transfer from college to college at Cornell, but it is easier said than done. Transferring "downstream" (let's say from the College of Arts & Sciences to the Ag school) is usually pretty easy. Going the other direction is much more difficult. Using my example in reverse, the student desiring to transfer from Ag to Arts & Sciences would not only have to exhibit some fairly gaudy pre-college credentials, but would also be required to demonstrate superior college work in his/her time at Cornell.

AI = Academic Index. LFN (Lehigh Football Nation) did an extensive expose on this a few weeks ago. Use this site's search engine to find it.

[colorless raider]

has been a long line of less than steller football coaches. The relatively new AD has done an excellent job in hiring coaches and it appears Coach Knowles is the best they have had since Maxie Baughn. They have some advantages recruiting given the uniquiness of their choices. For example, they can go after a first rate player in say Oklahoma and offer him a first rate agricultural school. Dartmouth or Columbia can't do that. The state schools help on price alone and many kids do like a LARGE school. This helps, but clearly the H-Y-P thing is tough to overcome in head to head recruiting battle. Cornell whipped Colgate last year but we are 10-1 over the last eleven years so I hope they have peaked.

[Pard4Life]

Any Colgate student or grad has the answer:

CORNELL SUCKS!!!

Just kidding :) .

Cornell is a beautiful campus in a great college town and great region (Finger Lakes - a nice place to sail, BTW.) Not that isolated, as other fine colleges such as Wells (my sister's alma mater) and Ithaca are very close by. Hard to understand why they are not a powerhouse in the Ivy League or eastern FCS football generally. Seems that when Cornell wants to have a dominant program, it happens (see hockey and lacrosse). Accordingly, one would think that this is a lack of commitment than anything else.


Cornell does suck, even though it is nice... I'd rather go to Colgate than Cornell for undergrad.. seriously... although I'd love to go to Cornell for anythign graduate school related..

[BigApp]

maybe they're just not that interested in winning athletically

[colgate13]

maybe they're just not that interested in winning athletically
DING DING DING!

Well, close anyways. If it is not Hockey or Lacrosse, Cornell hasn't cared for some time. That, IMO, is why Cornell has sucked. They just don't value athletics as highly as some other Ivy schools and lack the tradition to make it important at least historically to try to be good at football.

And, well, Cornell just sucks.

[colgate13]

what is AI?

To give you a quick summary, it's the formula for academics that PL schools can admit their athletes by. Basically each school has a formula of SAT and GPA and based on the general population of their previous year they get to have a line that they can't admit under. It is supposedly to ensure that our athletes are 'representitive' of our regular student body.

So, the higher up in academics your regular students get, the tougher it is to get your athletes admitted.

[TheValleyRaider]

It's pretty much a combination of three factors previously mentioned.

1) They don't care enough to really put forth the effort to build and sustain a continuously credible and winning program. Football isn't Cornell's athletic priority, Hockey and Lacrosse are (this creates the situation colorless brought up, their lack of good coaches).

2) The prestige factor just isn't there like it is for Harvard/Yale/Princeton, and I'd say they are at least below Dartmouth, Brown and Columbia as well in terms of name-recognition. Ivy League and everything, Cornell just doesn't sell as well as the others can.

3) ...and Cornell still sucks! :D

[Mustang Man]

Football isn't Cornell's athletic priority, Hockey and Lacrosse are (this creates the situation colorless brought up, their lack of good coaches).

Right there is your answer. The whole time I spent at Cornell not once did we think of going to a football game. Hockey, on the other hand, every chance we got.

[Brad82]

Didn't Cornell have really good teams in late 80's (86-89)?
Had big lineman who went on to NFL-McHale?
Maxie Baughan was coach and he got caught sleeping with top asst.'s wife.
Jeremy Schaap did expose of Baughn. Does somebody have it and can post it? Guys like Baughan and Jim Harrick (Rhody hoops) maybe still on have LA on their minds when they move to these smaller fishbowls.

[ngineer]

Interesting, let me ask one question on the value of Cornell degree (my lack of knowledge with Cornell and not that it matters). In the lines of business I have been in, Cornell generally got rave reviews for hotel management and other tourism businesses ( in fact in the hotel world they seem to have no competition) etc. and certain other specific business courses but no where near the overall acclaim of the other Ivy schools. Is this impression correct?

I agree with that view. At least in my circle of contacts, Cornell is viewed as the 'second tier' of the Ivy. While some of its schools (i.e. the hotel mgt,) have excellent reps, overall the fact that it is a 'hybrid' is one of the reasons for the less than 'superlative' label it receives. It 'largeness' may also contribute to that aura. Most people consider the 'smallness' of the private schools to be one of the allures to an Ivy or Patriot education. Athletically, Cornell has achieved excellence in certain sports--i.e. wrestling for one, where they are consistently one of the top 5 schools in the East and top 20 nationally, and hockey. Football, OTOH, has been mediocre since Marinaro's days, manly because they have not been able to recruit with the upper eschelon of the Ivy. NY State is nowhere near the hotbed of football that neighboring Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Ohio are. Lacrosse is the #1 sport in the state, except b-ball in NYC. My roommate at Lehigh was from Nyack, NY, who played football and lacrosse at Lehigh, and he acknowledged (of course this was back in the early '70's) that lacrosse was bigger than football back home.
I was recruited at Cornell, and agree that the area is very pretty, the campus very large, and gave me the sense of a school that couldn't decide on what it wanted to be...a big state university or small private school. Sometimes when you try to have it both ways, you get neither...Just a few rambling thoughts..;)

[bison137]

DING DING DING!

Well, close anyways. If it is not Hockey or Lacrosse, Cornell hasn't cared for some time.


I think they may be starting to care about basketball as well. They have had great recruiting classes the past couple of years and also brought in a high-profile transfer from USC. They will likely be the pre-season favorite in the Ivy - probably the first time it hasn't been one of the P's for a long time.

[colgate13]

I think they may be starting to care about basketball as well. They have had great recruiting classes the past couple of years and also brought in a high-profile transfer from USC. They will likely be the pre-season favorite in the Ivy - probably the first time it hasn't been one of the P's for a long time.

They're a good wrestling school too... but in the big picture of things, it's hockey and lax. And with hockey in the winter, basketball isn't doing much IMO.

[bison137]

They're a good wrestling school too... but in the big picture of things, it's hockey and lax. And with hockey in the winter, basketball isn't doing much IMO.


Hoops probably won't be doing much in terms of attendance, as usual, but they will definitely be doing a lot in terms of winning this year - assuming their key players are healthy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When it comes to the AI, there are two factors you have to remember, both of which come into play at Cornell.

1) The decisions are made by admissions, not by coaches. If admissions wants to "play ball" in regards to getting in athletes that hang on the lower edge of the AI bands, they will let the athletic department do so. It could be that admissions "care more" about developing a (say) great hockey team, and spend moe time on that.

2) With the new Ivy AI rules and the new financial aid packages of Harvard/Yale/Princeton, the AI tiers, in my mind, are stacked heavily against the Cornell's, Dartmouth's, and Columbia's. The complex banding system, which allows schools like Harvard and Yale to "reach down" and get a couple athletes at the floor of the AI, gives those schools a huge advantage in recruiting. (If you are an athlete choosing between Princeton and Cornell, and you're at the floor, who are you choosing?)

Add to that the fact that if you make less than $65K a year and you get a free education? It is way, way hard to compete. Cornell has to compete with this the same way the Patriot League has to. To me, these are formidable obstacles - though time will well if this is true.