Knight Commission endorses FBS split from NCAA

[Backdraft]

A commission of college athletics leaders recommended Thursday that the best way to repair the NCAA's "broken governance model" is to remove the teams of the Football Bowl Subdivision from the association, forcing the top level of college football to govern itself as a separate entity.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30444422/knight-commission-endorses-fbs-split-ncaa

[FUBeAR]

A commission of college athletics leaders recommended Thursday that the best way to repair the NCAA's "broken governance model" is to remove the teams of the Football Bowl Subdivision from the association, forcing the top level of college football to govern itself as a separate entity.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30444422/knight-commission-endorses-fbs-split-ncaaSo, they are saying Alabama & Ball State Football are more similar than Ball State & North Dakota State are.

BS - P5 will split & they will not take (most of) G5 with them...when all is said and done.

[OhioHen]

The Knight Commission making this recommendation is not unlike a think tank sponsored by billionaires concluding that the best way to stimulate the economy is to not tax billionaires.

[Daytripper]

So, they are saying Alabama & Ball State Football are more similar than Ball State & North Dakota State are.

BS - P5 will split & they will not take (most of) G5 with them...when all is said and done.

I've been saying this for a long time. P5 will reorganize into 4 super conferences and run it like the business that it is. G5 will combine with upper tier FCS, reorganize in to new conferences, and have and FCS-type playoff. I'm all for it.

Also, let's see how this spring football works out. If the television ratings are good, it would behoove the new G5/FCS to consider moving full time to the spring. They would not have to compete with the newly reorganized and separate P5 schools and could command more TV money.

[NY Crusader 2010]

My prediction is that you will end up with a "P7 and change" -- P5 + AAC + Mountain West + Notre Dame, BYU & Army. Maybe longtime major college football member Rice finagles some old SWC connections and gets to the chopper with that last open spot in the AAC.

[Daytripper]

My prediction is that you will end up with a "P7 and change" -- P5 + AAC + Mountain West + Notre Dame, BYU & Army. Maybe longtime major college football member Rice finagles some old SWC connections and gets to the chopper with that last open spot in the AAC.

I don't think the new upper tier are going to take all current P5 members. Some are going to be left out in the cold. Vanderbilt football looks more like G5 than P5. Vanderbilt, Rutgers, Syracuse, and quite a few other can't compete financially with the big boys, and therefore will be left out.

[mvfcfan]

My prediction is that you will end up with a "P7 and change" -- P5 + AAC + Mountain West + Notre Dame, BYU & Army. Maybe longtime major college football member Rice finagles some old SWC connections and gets to the chopper with that last open spot in the AAC.

I tend to agree with this. The AAC and MWC are a different tier of G5 than the CUSA, MAC, and Sun Belt. Almost everyone in the latter 3 belongs in the FCS, but are too proud to admit it.

[Go Green]

My prediction is that you will end up with a "P7 and change" -- P5 + AAC + Mountain West + Notre Dame, BYU & Army. Maybe longtime major college football member Rice finagles some old SWC connections and gets to the chopper with that last open spot in the AAC.

For those of us who aren't following this carefully, what exactly will this result accomplish?

How much money will be passed along to the power teams if the bottom FBS teams are pushed down?

[FUBeAR]

For those of us who aren't following this carefully, what exactly will this result accomplish?

How much money will be passed along to the power teams if the bottom FBS teams are pushed down?Where they are going to take it - outright paying Players as Employees is not an option for almost all G5 Teams - Revenue will never support it, so the ‘drag’ of the G5 Schools will slow them down.

[DFW HOYA]

The Knight Commission is a group of college officials and many of their recommendations go nowhere. The only recommendations those schools will follow are from TV networks.

[Redbird 4th & short]

The Knight Commission making this recommendation is not unlike a think tank sponsored by billionaires concluding that the best way to stimulate the economy is to not tax billionaires.
I don't use these acronyms, but this made me LMFAO.

[Redbird 4th & short]

So, they are saying Alabama & Ball State Football are more similar than Ball State & North Dakota State are.

BS - P5 will split & they will not take (most of) G5 with them...when all is said and done.
1000% agreed .. why would a Ball State want to be a complete bottom feeding fish. No one would want that.

I hate the idea of P5 breaking off, but the only chance it happens is if just the P5 breaks off, and as someone else said, they will lose many teams like Rutger, Vandy, and others. Who would do this a become a complete doormate in this new league. This is all about money and power, and nothing about college. And it is antithetical to the entire concept of college athletics and student-athlete.

Too much greed behind all of this.

[FUBeAR]

1000% agreed .. why would a Ball State want to be a complete bottom feeding fish. No one would want that.

I hate the idea of P5 breaking off, but the only chance it happens is if just the P5 breaks off, and as someone else said, they will lose many teams like Rutger, Vandy, and others. Who would do this a become a complete doormate in this new league. This is all about money and power, and nothing about college. And it is antithetical to the entire concept of college athletics and student-athlete.

Too much greed behind all of this.Greed is OK. Hypocrisy is not. That’s the problem.

Easily remedied by allowing those who can make a (greedy) buck to go do so - just stop pretending they are (all) STUDENT Athletes. Free education should be an optional benefit that the employees of the school, who are employed as Players in its Football Department, are eligible to receive...just as Employees of the school’s Physical Plant or Library Department, for example, may.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't think the new upper tier are going to take all current P5 members. Some are going to be left out in the cold. Vanderbilt football looks more like G5 than P5. Vanderbilt, Rutgers, Syracuse, and quite a few other can't compete financially with the big boys, and therefore will be left out.

Vanderbilt is a charter member of the SEC. I have heard zero about other SEC schools wanting to kick them out. Most P5 conferences for the most part has a flagship private academic school -- it just so happens that the others have been able to consistently compete more so than Vandy, at least in recent times. Talking about Northwestern, Stanford and Duke.

Rutgers and Syracuse were invited to their current conferences for reasons other than being football powerhouses. Rutgers was all about incremental TV sets for the Big Ten network in Metro NY (even if no one actually cares about watching the Scarlet Knights) and Syracuse's ACC invite along with Louisville and Pitt was the league wanting to fortify football and supercharge basketball simultaneously. Oh and TV markets.

[Daytripper]

Vanderbilt is a charter member of the SEC. I have heard zero about other SEC schools wanting to kick them out. Most P5 conferences for the most part has a flagship private academic school -- it just so happens that the others have been able to consistently compete more so than Vandy, at least in recent times. Talking about Northwestern, Stanford and Duke.

Rutgers and Syracuse were invited to their current conferences for reasons other than being football powerhouses. Rutgers was all about incremental TV sets for the Big Ten network in Metro NY (even if no one actually cares about watching the Scarlet Knights) and Syracuse's ACC invite along with Louisville and Pitt was the league wanting to fortify football and supercharge basketball simultaneously. Oh and TV markets.

As the original article says, this is ONLY about football. It's the money maker for individual P5 schools. As for the SEC, when the big reorganization comes, and I still think it will be 4 superconferences, none of the current power 5 conferences will exist in their current form. Teams will be added. Teams will be dropped. As for being a founding member, that is just sentimentality. Greed is driving this bus, and there is no room for sentiment in that world.

[NY Crusader 2010]

As the original article says, this is ONLY about football. It's the money maker for individual P5 schools. As for the SEC, when the big reorganization comes, and I still think it will be 4 superconferences, none of the current power 5 conferences will exist in their current form. Teams will be added. Teams will be dropped. As for being a founding member, that is just sentimentality. Greed is driving this bus, and there is no room for sentiment in that world.

Traditional conference structure is not going to come apart at the seams, regardless of what takes place as far as the big boys leaving the NCAA. If people want to watch pro football, they'll watch the NFL.

[Bisonoline]

Traditional conference structure is not going to come apart at the seams, regardless of what takes place as far as the big boys leaving the NCAA. If people want to watch pro football, they'll watch the NFL.

The big boys already have autonomy so this is just the next step to keep the money to themselves and not be beholding to the lessor schools.

[FUBeAR]

Traditional conference structure is not going to come apart at the seams, regardless of what takes place as far as the big boys leaving the NCAA. If people want to watch pro football, they'll watch the NFL.
People have been watching Non-NFL Pro Football for years & pretending it’s College Football. The difference, in the future, is that everyone will stop pretending it’s College Football.

[Daytripper]

People have been watching Non-NFL Pro Football for years & pretending it’s College Football. The difference, in the future, is that everyone will stop pretending it’s College Football.

Yep. Those alumni of P5 schools aren't going to stop supporting, attending and watching. Those t-shirt fans aren't going to stop dreaming and pretending.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I think the big boys will find that a lot of people will walk away from the product that is college football when it fully becomes AAA for the NFL with paid players, etc.

I honestly hope the NFL gets rid of the bogus age limit and allows HS => NFL and one-and-done guys. Football is a young man's game.

[FUBeAR]

Yep. Those alumni of P5 schools aren't going to stop supporting, attending and watching. Those t-shirt fans aren't going to stop dreaming and pretending.
Right - I probably should have said stop pretending it’s “Amateur” Football. Players will still be affiliated with Good OL’ State U., but they will be Employees...and, possibly, Students. So the Alums & the Pretend-Alums can still cheer for their favorite colored Laundry on Saturdays.

[FUBeAR]

I think the big boys will find that a lot of people will walk away from the product that is college football when it fully becomes AAA for the NFL with paid players, etc.

I honestly hope the NFL gets rid of the bogus age limit and allows HS => NFL and one-and-done guys. Football is a young man's game.Boston College, Syracuse, and Rutgers fans may “walk away,” but I’ll guaran-gol’-dang-tee you that Bama, Clemson, and UGa fans aren’t walking anywhere, except to the Campus Bookstore, to get a ‘replica’ Jersey of the latest SuperStar from ‘their’ school...and by the way...a lot of those fans of ‘their’ schools (that I mentioned) have diplomas that say Samford, Wofford, Furman, and Mercer on them.


...and, PLEASE, never one-and-done...never again. That was the HEIGHT of hypocrisy...it would be even more so in Football than it was in basketball. At least basketball players had to pass the minimum course load of ‘crip’ courses in the Fall term to stay eligible in the 2nd semester.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think the big boys will find that a lot of people will walk away from the product that is college football when it fully becomes AAA for the NFL with paid players, etc.

I honestly hope the NFL gets rid of the bogus age limit and allows HS => NFL and one-and-done guys. Football is a young man's game.

The number of "football factories" is so small that I think people are seriously overestimating their ultimate pull. After the true elite top 10-12 "football schools" you get into a lot of old money (Nebraska, Michigan State, Washington, Iowa, UCLA, Tennessee, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse etc.) and modern era top 25ers" (Oregon, Virginia Tech, Boise State, Cincinnati, Wisconsin etc) who are basically the movers and shakers of the sport when it comes to TV, scheduling, bowl games, revenue, fundraising, state/local government support etc. With that said, Miami (OH), Rice, Troy, Lafayette (La), App State, North Texas or whoever might have a key political or business figure that has enough pull to upset the apple cart. That's how Baylor got into the Big 12 from the SWC.

While the hardcore football schools clearly have significant influence it's not like their sole purpose is to develop NFL players. The Miami's and Florida State's of the 80's and 90's, Texas's and USC's of the 2000's and Alabama's, Clemson's and OSU's of the 2010's are the exceptions rather than the rule. Even with their elite talent bases odds are a player there will never see a single NFL/CFL paycheck. For 90% of the P5 programs it honestly is about developing the student-athlete. The Purdue's NC State's, Arizona's, Maryland's, Northwestern's, Georgia Tech's, Iowa State's, BYU's, South Carolina's, Texas Tech's, Oklahoma State's, Kansas State's of the world are a much better representation of P5 football than Alabama, Clemson, Florida, LSU, USC, Texas or Texas A&M.

Given all the nuances at the Division 1 FBS level I highly doubt there will be a complete overhaul. FBS football basically operates independently of the NCAA as things are presently constructed. It's more or less governed by its participating conferences while the postseason/championship is run by TV; primarily ESPN.

I'm in the process of transition into college athletics (I was suppose work winter sports at NDSU before covid kiboshed it) so between my current school work (Notre Dame now then either Central Michigan or Purdue in the summer) and independent research I'm kind of obsessed with the ever changing face of it. Especially with the covid 19 mess!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Boston College, Syracuse, and Rutgers fans may “walk away,” but I’ll guaran-gol’-dang-tee you that Bama, Clemson, and UGa fans aren’t walking anywhere, except to the Campus Bookstore, to get a ‘replica’ Jersey of the latest SuperStar from ‘their’ school...and by the way...a lot of those fans of ‘their’ schools (that I mentioned) have diplomas that say Samford, Wofford, Furman, and Mercer on them.


...and, PLEASE, never one-and-done...never again. That was the HEIGHT of hypocrisy...it would be even more so in Football than it was in basketball. At least basketball players had to pass the minimum course load of ‘crip’ courses in the Fall term to stay eligible in the 2nd semester.

Plenty of those type of Syracuse "sweatshirt fans" during basketball season. I'm more-or-less one of them...lol.

[Daytripper]

Right - I probably should have said stop pretending it’s “Amateur” Football. Players will still be affiliated with Good OL’ State U., but they will be Employees...and, possibly, Students. So the Alums & the Pretend-Alums can still cheer for their favorite colored Laundry on Saturdays.

I think there will still be rules regarding full time attendance of "classes." If the name of the team is the school, that seems to be a given. The deciding factor for the P5 is the ability to pay full cost of attendance+ and, especially, superstars getting paid for use of their likeness.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I think there will still be rules regarding full time attendance of "classes." If the name of the team is the school, that seems to be a given. The deciding factor for the P5 is the ability to pay full cost of attendance+ and, especially, superstars getting paid for use of their likeness.

I think some level of getting paid for use of your own likeness will be permitted in the near future. It will probably start with student-athletes being able to be paid for running camps or private lessons. IMO, if a student can charge a rate for their math tutoring services, why can't a student-athlete be paid for conducting one-on-one lessons with local youth playing their sport? I think initially the NCAA will continue to not allow endorsement pay, i.e. a popular student athlete promoting a local car dealership or restaurant. FCOA is obviously already happening at many schools, including FCS.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The Knight Commission commissioned a survey of athletic directors and president's in DI and it's mostly non-football DI schools that want this. P5 schools are the most opposed to it.

https://i.imgur.com/hU3glVG.png

[walliver]

I suspect much of the reticence of big time teams to support this is due to the understanding that they may not be able to control themselves in a new environment. An independent P5 organization could have unlimited scholarships, coaching staffs and expenses. The current structure allows the NCAA to be the bad guy and limit scholarships and other expenses.

I also suspect the P5 expect multiple anti-trust lawsuits from the G5 and Title IX advocates.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I suspect much of the reticence of big time teams to support this is due to the understanding that they may not be able to control themselves in a new environment. An independent P5 organization could have unlimited scholarships, coaching staffs and expenses. The current structure allows the NCAA to be the bad guy and limit scholarships and other expenses.

I also suspect the P5 expect multiple anti-trust lawsuits from the G5 and Title IX advocates.

They basically had nearly unlimited rosters and endless scholarships up until the mid to late 80's iirc? That's when Nebraska, Alabama, LSU, Michigan etc had like 150 players on their rosters. Those schools were dishing handing out full and partial scholarships like crazy while Kansas State, Northwestern and Oregon State had 40 or so players on free rides. When Bill Snyder took over at Kansas State, football was run as if it was a low level D2 program. Yet, they maintained their Big 8 membership (bball was good then). A lot of the "lesser bigger" schools complained about the talent/roster disparity and the 85 limit was put in place. That was a case of the NCAA working for the schools and conferences.

I still think there's still far too big of a gap within the P5 for there to be major change. The "Big Boys" consists of 15-20 schools....

[FUBeAR]

They basically had nearly unlimited rosters and endless scholarships up until the mid to late 80's iirc? That's when Nebraska, Alabama, LSU, Michigan etc had like 150 players on their rosters. Those schools were dishing handing out full and partial scholarships like crazy while Kansas State, Northwestern and Oregon State had 40 or so players on free rides. When Bill Snyder took over at Kansas State, football was run as if it was a low level D2 program. Yet, they maintained their Big 8 membership (bball was good then). A lot of the "lesser bigger" schools complained about the talent/roster disparity and the 85 limit was put in place. That was a case of the NCAA working for the schools and conferences.

I still think there's still far too big of a gap within the P5 for there to be major change. The "Big Boys" consists of 15-20 schools....

I believe the Recruiting class of 1973 was the last ‘unlimited’ class. Pitt brought in 75 - 100 guys that year, including one named Tony Dorsett, who panned out pretty well.

Then... https://www.sapling.com/8144923/history-sports-scholarships

In 1973 the NCAA imposed a limit of 105 scholarships for football programs, essentially freeing up money for scholarships in other sports, especially women's sports.

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 had forced the hands of university presidents and athletic directors, mandating that they more equitably distribute resources--including athletic scholarships--among different sports and sexes.

Further football scholarship reductions were made in 1978--down to 95...

...and again in 1992, when football scholarships were limited to 85.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I believe the Recruiting class of 1973 was the last ‘unlimited’ class. Pitt brought in 75 - 100 guys that year, including one named Tony Dorsett, who panned out pretty well.

Then... https://www.sapling.com/8144923/history-sports-scholarships

In 1973 the NCAA imposed a limit of 105 scholarships for football programs, essentially freeing up money for scholarships in other sports, especially women's sports.

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 had forced the hands of university presidents and athletic directors, mandating that they more equitably distribute resources--including athletic scholarships--among different sports and sexes.

Further football scholarship reductions were made in 1978--down to 95...

...and again in 1992, when football scholarships were limited to 85.

Rosters at a lot of the power programs were still in the 150-200 range in the 80's, early 90's. Nebraska had as many walk-ons as they did scholarship athletes when they took off in the 90's. There's always been hoarding of talent and that will never change. How it's accomplished will but that's just semantics at this point....

[NY Crusader 2010]

One thing that's always been interesting about football, compared to other sports, is not only the roster limits, but the allocation of the roster through the lens of various different metrics.

You can have X number of scholarships, but total number allowed on the roster is Y, number of players allowed to participate in summer camp is Z, number of players allowed to dress for home games is beta and number of players allowed to dress for road games is theta.

[Bill]

Crusader,
Be careful - for this non-engineer Engineer, once you start mixing variables with Greek letters, my head may explode xlolx