Colgate in 2003, how did they do it?

[MplsBison]

Before 2003, no non scholarship team had ever made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs and it hasn't happened since then.


So how did Colgate pull it off in 2003?

Weak schedule? Were scholarship teams simply down (other than Delaware, obviously) that year? Did they get transfers?


How come it had never been done until then and hasn't been done since (with no promising candidates on the horizon)?



In 2003 NDSU was in its last year of DII so I wasn't paying much attention to the I-AA scene (though I'll never forget watching the Delaware HC scream at his players for throwing Gatorade on his back).

Anyone remember that season and can clue me in?

[Dane96]

No,

[MplsBison]

Must have a short memory.

Someone must remember. I'm thinking Colgate fans.

[DFW HOYA]

Colgate was a very good team in 2003, using a diversified offense behind RB Jamaal Branch and WR Chris Graham that punished opponents for mistakes. Such was the case in the season opener, where Georgetown missed two PAT conversions and the Red Raiders drove for the winning--not tying--TD in the last minute as a result The final was 20-19, and no team got closer than a TD until Western Illinois in the quarterfinals.

From that Georgetown game right to the final, Colgate was expert at controlling games and knowing when to make its move. The problem in the UDel game was early mistakes that they had avoided in the regular season, giving Delaware an opportunity to get ahead and get Colgate out of its offensive sets.

I know M-Bison would like to think otherwise, but it was no accident the Red Raiders went as far as they did--this team won 15 straight and went past UMass, Western Illinois, and Florida Atlantic. They could win in defensive struggles (17-10 over Lehigh), or shootouts (52-40 over Yale). While they did benefit from home seeding in the first two rounds of the playoffs, they deserved it--but the same can be said for a lot of good teams, esp. App State's 2005 and 2006 runs where they were 6-0 at home.

Bottom line, Colgate was very good, and the results reflected it.

[MplsBison]

Obviously this Branch was a stud.


Now, you're telling me that a Branch only comes along once in 30 years?



There's buckets of Branch's out there every recruiting class.

It would seem that the PL hasn't been landing them as of late.

[Dane96]

You are just giving him fodder DFW. Now he is going to use his reasoning skills to talk about how much the PL sucks.

That is why I said no one remembers. ;)

[Dane96]

Obviously this Branch was a stud.


Now, you're telling me that a Branch only comes along once in 30 years?



There's buckets of Branch's out there every recruiting class.

It would seem that the PL hasn't been landing them as of late.

Clearly, they cannot recruit Branches because they lack the financial gumption to do so.

BISON FOREVER...BISON FOREVER....ONLY THE FIT SHALL SURVIVE...DARWINIAN FOOTBALL!

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=MplsBison;581258]Before 2003, no non scholarship team had ever made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs and it hasn't happened since then.


So how did Colgate pull it off in 2003?

Weak schedule? Were scholarship teams simply down (other than Delaware, obviously) that year? Did they get transfers?


How come it had never been done until then and hasn't been done since (with no promising candidates on the horizon)?



In 2003 NDSU was in its last year of DII so I wasn't paying much attention to the I-AA scene (though I'll never forget watching the Delaware HC scream at his players for throwing Gatorade on his back).

Anyone remember that season and can clue me in?[/QUOTE

I'm happy to give you plenty of info but do not want to bore the other posters. Suffice it to say that it took one of the greatest Delaware teams ever to beat us, though they did soundly. However, other PL teams had been very competitive in the play-offs before that time.

[MplsBison]

No they hadn't.

Only Lehigh and Fordham had ever made it out of the 1st round. None had ever made it out of the 2nd.

[Go...gate]

No they hadn't.

Only Lehigh and Fordham had ever made it out of the 1st round. None had ever made it out of the 2nd.

You count getting down to the final eight and playing well in National Quarterfinals against UMass (1998) and Villanova (2002) not competitive? Cone on, Mpls - that is unrealistic in the extreme.

[MplsBison]

I only count playoff wins.

Would've, could've close games don't cut it.


If a PL team was making it to the semi's every season, that would justify their existence in my mind.

But they're clearly not.

[Go...gate]

In that case, if one were to consider your thesis literally, a team could have 63 scholarships, lose in the first round every year and lose their right to compete. Is this what you mean?

[MplsBison]

Not at all.

A 63 scholarship team wouldn't even need to make the playoffs to justify their existence.


All I'm proposing is scholarship minimums, after all.

[cougars55]

Not at all.

A 63 scholarship team wouldn't even need to make the playoffs to justify their existence.


All I'm proposing is scholarship minimums, after all.

Do you realize how big of a fool you are making yourself look like?

[MplsBison]

Personal attacks don't further the debate.

[Go...gate]

OK. So you want 63 scholarships and this is understood. But why not a comparable number of grants which provide the equivalent of a scholarship?

[MplsBison]

Giving 63 (or at the least, 56.7) scholarships should be taken as the reference for FCS.


If you're already doing that, you don't need to do anything else. You're doing what is expected.


If you want to deviate from, for whatever reason, then you're going to have to justify your position.


Obviously, giving no scholarships is a large deviation from not only FCS, but the DI model in general.

It requires justification.

[MplsBison]

OK. So you want 63 scholarships and this is understood. But why not a comparable number of grants which provide the equivalent of a scholarship?


Need based aid is also a deviation (in philosophy if nothing else) from the scholarship model that DI uses.

Your own school even uses it for other sports. Just not football.



Gotta have some justification.

[MplsBison]

It's not like there's shame in being DIII.

Nothing wrong with that model.


MIT uses it. The UAA (some of the best schools in the nation) use it.

Cal Tech.


etc.



If that's the model you want, fine! Just go where that model is the reference. Don't go where that model is the deviation.

[Go...gate]

Need based aid is also a deviation (in philosophy if nothing else) from the scholarship model that DI uses.

Your own school even uses it for other sports. Just not football.



Gotta have some justification.

Only arguing FB here.

But if you have half a pound of nails and half a pound of peanuts, aren't they both half a pound? If you get to the same destination by an alternative route, why is that an undesirable "deviation"?

P.S. I gotta run - maybe we can pick this up later.

[MplsBison]

They're both half a pound.


What you're proposing is that it's acceptable to use a half pound of nails in a peanut butter and jelly sandwich recipe that calls for a half pound of peanuts.

[Dane96]

The recipe does not call for scholarships in DI.

YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN STOP WATCHING...WE DON'T CARE.

CAN WE STOP ANSWERING THIS GUY....he gets off on it. I am out.

[DFW HOYA]

Need based aid is also a deviation (in philosophy if nothing else) from the scholarship model that DI uses. Your own school even uses it for other sports. Just not football. Gotta have some justification.

This is some serious windmill tilting here. Let's go to the book, so to speak, the NCAA Manual which clearly defines what it expects for Division I membership.

20.9.1.2 Minimum Awards.[b] A member of Division I shall provide institutional financial assistance that equals one of the following:

(a) A minimum of 50 percent of the maximum allowable grants in 14 sports, at least seven of whichmust be women’s sports...[or]

(b) [B]Financial aid representing a minimum aggregate expenditure of $985,923 in 2006-07 (with at least $492,961 in women’s sports), and $1,049,022 in 2007-08 (with at least $524,511 in women’s sports), exclusive of grants in football and men’s and women’s basketball, provided the aggregate grant value is not less than the equivalent of 38 full grants, with at least 19 full grants for women....[or]

(c) A minimum of the equivalent of 50 full grants (at least 25 full grants in women’s sports), exclusive of grants awarded in football and men’s and women’s basketball....[or]

(d) A minimum of one-half of the required grants or aggregate expenditures cited in (a), (b) or (c) above, for institutions that depend on exceptional amounts of federal assistance to meet students’
financial needs."

Also note the following:
20.9.1.2.1 Aid Counted Toward Minimum Requirements. All institutional financial aid (including aid that is exempted from an equivalency computation per Bylaw 15.5.3.2.1) awarded by the member institution to a counter (per Bylaw 15.5.1) shall be used to meet the appropriate minimum.

[MplsBison]

False.

To be in the FBS subdivision, you must provide at least 90% of 85 scholarships.


That's the precedent I'm using to justify a 90% of 63 minimum for FCS.

[MplsBison]

The recipe does not call for scholarships in DI.

YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN STOP WATCHING...WE DON'T CARE.

CAN WE STOP ANSWERING THIS GUY....he gets off on it. I am out.

I only get off on how mad you get. xnodx

[UAalum72]

False.
He quoted the Manual. Therefore he cannot be false. Your saying it is false does not make it so.

[Sir William]

I think I speak for most of us when I say...xboringx


By the way, Colgate had a great run in 2003. xthumbsupx

[blukeys]

Before 2003, no non scholarship team had ever made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs and it hasn't happened since then.


So how did Colgate pull it off in 2003?

Weak schedule? Were scholarship teams simply down (other than Delaware, obviously) that year? Did they get transfers?


How come it had never been done until then and hasn't been done since (with no promising candidates on the horizon)?



In 2003 NDSU was in its last year of DII so I wasn't paying much attention to the I-AA scene (though I'll never forget watching the Delaware HC scream at his players for throwing Gatorade on his back).

Anyone remember that season and can clue me in?

I remember the season well.

First, KC screaming about the Gatorade occurred at the Wofford game and not the Final game. KC did not want to celebrate going to the Championship. we wanted to celebrate after the championship was won and not before.

Second, there is virtually no difference between the PL financial aid for an athlete and Scholarships. If a PL school offers 57 scollies it is virtually the same as 57 scollies. The paperwork is more extensive but the teams that know the syslem have figured out the best ways to recruit.

Third, I do not think scholarship teams were down in '03. The A-10 was particularly brutal with UD barely beating UNH, Maine, and Umass and losing to Northeastern. All but Umass missed the playoffs after beating up on one another.


I thought that Colgate in '03 were very similar to the 2 Gateway teams I saw in SIU and UNI. All three were run first teams that had feature backs. All three had better than average though not spectacular QB's. An unappreciated aspect of the Colgate offense was the mobility of their QB. If a team was focused on stopping Branch up the gut the QB could turn the corner for some good yardage keeping drives alive. This was very apparent early against Florida Atlantic.

Colgate it could be argued was fortunate to play Umass in the snow. Umass in '03 had one of the best downfield passing attacks I have seen. the weather conditions did help negate that but Colgate did what they had to do to win and in my view deserved the victory. Colgate had another close win against WIU in the second round. Probably, the win that best exemplified that Colgate team at their best was down south at Florida Atlantic. Colgate played a ball control, physically dominating game against a team that was supposed to be much faster. Colgate had pretty much worn out FAU by the end of the game.

Delaware the following week was another matter as it had one of the best D lines I have seen at this level. Although Sean Johnson got the ink, UD also had 2 other Linemen from that team go on and get All American honors.

Colgate managed to win some close games against good teams in the playoffs. It probably was the best PL team of the last decade but there have been other good teams as well. I'm not sure what the point is of dissing the PL teams. Over the last decade the PL has performed better than the MEAC and OVC in the playoffs regardless of their method of funding their athletes.

If one wants to point to one item that would cause a lack of success for the PL in the playoffs it would be the high academic standards for admission required by Colgate and Pl teams for football players.

Perhaps to make the PL more competitive they should lower the admission standards to that of NDSU and then they would perform better in the playoffs and someone like MPLSbison could get a Patriot League Education. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

That might solve all of the problems posed on this Board. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[MplsBison]

I just don't see how Colgate could be this good in 03 and the PL pretty good the few years before that and then BAM, nothing in 04, 05, and 06.

[Model Citizen]

Colgate has about 55 scholarship equivalencies. "Equivalency" is shorthand for "scholarship equivalencies." The NCAA would call them something else if schools weren't allowed to split full grants.

So my question to Minnesota man is, why the commotion about being 8 scholarships short of full funding? And who cares why Colgate tanked?

[bison137]

Perhaps to make the PL more competitive they should lower the admission standards to that of NDSU and then they would perform better in the playoffs and someone like MPLSbison could get a Patriot League Education. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

That might solve all of the problems posed on this Board. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


I think that might devalue my diploma by more than a little bit, and all PL diplomas.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I just don't see how Colgate could be this good in 03 and the PL pretty good the few years before that and then BAM, nothing in 04, 05, and 06.

Look who they've played.
Lehigh lost 14-13 to National Champ in '04
Lafayette lost to App State in '05 and Umass last year

Lehigh was also very deserving of a playoff bid in 2003. That 2003 Lehigh team still comes up as one of the biggest playoff snubs ever. They dominated in their 8 victories and their 3 losses came to 12-0 Colgate, 10-0 Penn and 9-3 1-A UConn.

[Mountain Panther]

Colgate beat a VERY good Western Illinois team by 1 point in the 2nd round in 2003 in a DRIVING snow storm (the same WIU team that had just beat Montana 1st round in Wa-Griz). No snow that day, and Western would have been playing Delaware in the NC, IMO.

[MplsBison]

Look who they've played.
Lehigh lost 14-13 to National Champ in '04
Lafayette lost to App State in '05 and Umass last year

When you're the lowest seeded team ususally you play the best teams in the playoffs.

[Go...gate]

When you're the lowest seeded team ususally you play the best teams in the playoffs.


And so what?

[MplsBison]

So the lowest seed losing to the highest seed doesn't justify the IL not having a playoff win in the last 3 seasons.

It's not like they were randomly picked to play the best teams.

They were the worst team in the playoffs, so they had to play the best team.

[colgate13]

Colgate beat a VERY good Western Illinois team by 1 point in the 2nd round in 2003 in a DRIVING snow storm (the same WIU team that had just beat Montana 1st round in Wa-Griz). No snow that day, and Western would have been playing Delaware in the NC, IMO.

I have to disagree. I was at that game, and both teams handled the weather fairly well. Colgate made some serious clutch plays when it mattered, and that was the difference IMO.

[colgate13]

So the lowest seed losing to the highest seed doesn't justify the IL not having a playoff win in the last 3 seasons.

It's not like they were randomly picked to play the best teams.

They were the worst team in the playoffs, so they had to play the best team.
Some more ignorance here on your part.

Only 4 teams are seeded. 12 teams are not seeded. The first round matchups are not made based on seeding but rather a combination of regional matchups and in-conference avoidance with home field bidding taking place. You cannot accurately call the PL teams the worst teams in the playoffs based on a seeding decision.

If you still don't believe me, what's Lehigh (the 'lower' seed in your description of the event) doing hosting JMU at home?

The truth is the CAA and the SoCon have been strong conferences and have had seeds in the playoffs. When it comes time to match that Northeast/Mid-Atlantic seed against a regional team not in the CAA, guess who gets the call? When it's a team like App. State, guess who gets the call?

[TheValleyRaider]

So the lowest seed losing to the highest seed doesn't justify the IL not having a playoff win in the last 3 seasons.

It's not like they were randomly picked to play the best teams.

They were the worst team in the playoffs, so they had to play the best team.

Umm, that's not how the playoffs work at all...xreadx

[Fordham]

Too funny.

A guy comes on here trying to tell us how it should be in in FCS but doesn't know even the most basic things about it. I couldn't come up with a script for this thread that would have been more unflattering to Mpls than what he just did to himself.

Again, too funny. Just enjoy while it you can, PL brethren, since this thread is likely to be deleted by its originator.

[YoUDeeMan]

So the lowest seed losing to the highest seed doesn't justify the IL not having a playoff win in the last 3 seasons.

It's not like they were randomly picked to play the best teams.

They were the worst team in the playoffs, so they had to play the best team.

LipsBison,

As others have pointed out, your knowledge of our playoff system is a bit limited. Perhaps it is you, and not the PL, who is not worthy of being included in an FCS discussion. xlolx xlolx

[andy7171]

So the lowest seed losing to the highest seed doesn't justify the IL not having a playoff win in the last 3 seasons.

It's not like they were randomly picked to play the best teams.

They were the worst team in the playoffs, so they had to play the best team.
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
Are we talking the NCAA basketball play-offs? Why don't you tune up your FCS knowledge before telling us all how to do things?
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[PLLB]

Second, there is virtually no difference between the PL financial aid for an athlete and Scholarships. If a PL school offers 57 scollies it is virtually the same as 57 scollies. The paperwork is more extensive but the teams that know the syslem have figured out the best ways to recruit.


WHY is the difference so hard for you guys to understand??

[andy7171]

Second, there is virtually no difference between the PL financial aid for an athlete and Scholarships. If a PL school offers 57 scollies it is virtually the same as 57 scollies. The paperwork is more extensive but the teams that know the syslem have figured out the best ways to recruit.


WHY is the difference so hard for you , mplsbsion, to understand??
Fixed it for ya! :D

[carney2]

Back to the original question. Colgate had a very good team, led by Payton Award winner Branch at running back. Legend has it that having all of those home playoff games on the home tundra was a real advantage. Mehinx that you don't get to the final game with pure "luck," however.

[MplsBison]

If a PL school offers 57 scollies it is virtually the same as 57 scollies. The paperwork is more extensive but the teams that know the syslem have figured out the best ways to recruit.


Understood fully.


Once an athlete gets admitted to the school, IF he qualifies for need based aid, once he gets that aid then no, the money is no different than if he had gotten a scholarship.


The question is first if he gets admitted and second if he qualifies for need based aid.



Those are 2 questions that should never be asked.

[Franks Tanks]

Understood fully.


Once an athlete gets admitted to the school, IF he qualifies for need based aid, once he gets that aid then no, the money is no different than if he had gotten a scholarship.


The question is first if he gets admitted and second if he qualifies for need based aid.



Those are 2 questions that should never be asked.

The IF he gets admitted questions will always be asked by the Patriot, Ivies, Daytons, W&M's, Villinova's and the like.

[andy7171]

Those are 2 questions that should never be asked.
mpls, you can't possibly be saying that a high school football player should be accepted to ANY school SOLEY based on his athletic ability and ignoring his academic performance.

As if the rift between regular students and athletes wasn't large already!


The IF he gets admitted questions will always be asked by the Patriot, Ivies, Daytons, W&M's, Villinova's and the like.
An rightly so! Those schools pride themselves on academics first. It should be an honor to first get accepted and then to be able to play for them. Just because the BCS schools ignore admission requirements, doesn't mean the FCS should follow suit blindly.

[MplsBison]

The IF he gets admitted questions will always be asked by the Patriot, Ivies, Daytons, W&M's, Villinova's and the like.


It isn't asked of Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, etc.


And those are superior universities to the PL.


Thus, that argument fails.

[MplsBison]

you can't possibly be saying that a high school football player should be accepted to ANY school SOLEY based on his athletic ability and ignoring his academic performance.


That's why the NCAA exists. Clearinghouse, etc.


Plus, you're only granting an athlete entrance to a school.

You're not doing the school work for them.


If that athlete truly can't hack it at such an obviously superior university, then his grades won't allow him to be eligible.

Problem solved.



As if the rift between regular students and athletes wasn't large already!

False dilemma fallacy.


No such "poisoning of the well" occurs at Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, etc.

[bison137]

Understood fully.


The question is first if he gets admitted and second if he qualifies for need based aid.

Those are 2 questions that should never be asked.



Why? Do you expect NDSU to act like a college, or like a pro football team?

[Dane96]

Absolutely occurs at Stanford, Northwestern, Purdue, BOSTON COLLEGE, etc.

Do kids with less than stellar grades get in these schools? Sure...but they are the exception opposed to the rule.

[andy7171]

False dilemma fallacy.


No such "poisoning of the well" occurs at Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, etc.
Who's throwing out the red herring now?

I guarentee students at Duke and Stanford resent athletes who have full rides and get to set their schedule before everyone else can even get in the building?

And sullying the name of the Ivies and PL and Daytons just to attempt to prove your point is despicable.

[MplsBison]

Do you expect NDSU to act like a college, or like a pro football team?

False dilemma.


NDSU does not harm its students by admitting a couple hundred athletes based on their athletic ability.

[MplsBison]

I guarentee students at Duke and Stanford resent athletes who have full rides and get to set their schedule before everyone else can even get in the building?

They can resent all they want.

They aren't being harmed in the slightest by the athlete's presence.



If anything, all the nice facilities the school has is, at least, indirectly because of the athletes increasing donations to the school.

[MplsBison]

Do kids with less than stellar grades get in these schools? Sure...but they are the exception opposed to the rule.

If they're athletes they always get in.

[MplsBison]

***Jesus Christ, there was literally no activity on this thread 10 minutes ago, do you all have your pagers go off when I post on this thread?***

[Go...gate]

***Jesus Christ, there was literally no activity on this thread 10 minutes ago, do you all have your pagers go off when I post on this thread?***


Yes. xlolx xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

It isn't asked of Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, etc.


And those are superior universities to the PL.


Thus, that argument fails.

You dont think Stanford and Duke have high standards for athletes?? If they didnt then why are the football teams at two great schools so awful? A basketball team can admit 3-4 lesser quality student who are great basketball players, and they can have a larger impact A football team cant admit 80 guys who are way below their class, that make a big difference of the admission stats of a school with only a few thouand kids

[Go...gate]

That's why the NCAA exists. Clearinghouse, etc.


Plus, you're only granting an athlete entrance to a school.

You're not doing the school work for them.


If that athlete truly can't hack it at such an obviously superior university, then his grades won't allow him to be eligible.

Problem solved.




False dilemma fallacy.


No such "poisoning of the well" occurs at Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, etc.

Just out of curiosity, what is YOUR source for this assertion?

[andy7171]

***Jesus Christ, there was literally no activity on this thread 10 minutes ago, do you all have your pagers go off when I post on this thread?***
:D YEP! xlolx xlolx

[UAalum72]

Just out of curiosity, what is YOUR source for this assertion?
Source??? that's a red herring!

[MplsBison]

You dont think Stanford and Duke have high standards for athletes?? If they didnt then why are the football teams at two great schools so awful?

Can't say that about Stanford and Northwestern.

Even recently they've had good teams.

[MplsBison]

Just out of curiosity, what is YOUR source for this assertion?

I don't need a source. Simple logic will do.


Obviously Stanford and Northwestern make it a priority to have high averages for GPA and test scores on their incoming classes.


If, by admitting athletes that had low test scores and GPAs, those averages were to drop, those schools wouldn't sit around and do nothing about it.


But their averages haven't dropped.


Thus, the averages aren't being affected by the athletes.



Maybe they're recruiting an offsetting number of super geniuses? Who knows.

All I know is they're getting it done.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't need a source. Simple logic will do.


Obviously Stanford and Northwestern make it a priority to have high averages for GPA and test scores on their incoming classes.


If, by admitting athletes that had low test scores and GPAs, those averages were to drop, those schools wouldn't sit around and do nothing about it.


But their averages haven't dropped.


Thus, the averages aren't being affected by the athletes.



Maybe they're recruiting an offsetting number of super geniuses? Who knows.

All I know is they're getting it done.


You just "reasoned" in a circle. Your original point was that Universities shouldnt care what the scores are for athletes, they should admit anyone they want.

The you say.

Obviously Stanford and Northwestern make it a priority to have high averages for GPA and test scores on their incoming classes.

And also claim that you agree with this as they field competitive team in your estimation. So then why did you make the origial point that schools shouldny look at academics when you stated later that you agree?

[89Hen]

In 2003 NDSU was in its last year of DII so I wasn't paying much attention to the I-AA scene
Some things never change.

[JoeNeck90]

I have to disagree. I was at that game, and both teams handled the weather fairly well. Colgate made some serious clutch plays when it mattered, and that was the difference IMO.

When it comes to weather, we all know that both teams are playing in it. That day was beyond poor playing conditions and I think it helped even things up for Colgate. Plus, Colgate had just played in it the week before and probably practiced in it while we introduced a few players to snow for the first time. You could tell that the Colgate players understood the footing and the angles to take. Michna was a stud and two picks wasn't the norm. After putting up huge numbers in MT the week before, in better conditions, it would have been done again. Clutch plays by Colgate wouldn't have mattered. Delaware would have been tough to beat but WIU would have given them a better game IMO.

[89Hen]

Delaware would have been tough to beat but WIU would have given them a better game IMO.
xconfusedx The Hens slaughtered all three I-AA teams that beat you in 2003. How do you figure WIU would have fared better? xeyebrowx

[GannonFan]

xconfusedx The Hens slaughtered all three I-AA teams that beat you in 2003. How do you figure WIU would have fared better? xeyebrowx


Maybe it would've been 40-7??? Certainly, after playing and beating both co-champs out of the Gateway that year, I'm sure the 3rd place Gateway team would've been better...xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Go...gate]

When it comes to weather, we all know that both teams are playing in it. That day was beyond poor playing conditions and I think it helped even things up for Colgate. Plus, Colgate had just played in it the week before and probably practiced in it while we introduced a few players to snow for the first time. You could tell that the Colgate players understood the footing and the angles to take. Michna was a stud and two picks wasn't the norm. After putting up huge numbers in MT the week before, in better conditions, it would have been done again. Clutch plays by Colgate wouldn't have mattered. Delaware would have been tough to beat but WIU would have given them a better game IMO.

That was a game for the ages. Michna (notwithstanding the interceptions), Glasford and co. were impressive as hell, and both teams played with a lot of courage in bad conditions. Neither team deserved to lose.

[MplsBison]

So then why did you make the origial point that schools shouldny look at academics when you stated later that you agree?

Athletic scholarships should be given with a financial need blindness and an academic ability blindness.



The standards a school sets for the rest of the incoming class has nothing to do with that. IE, athletes are a well justified exceptions.

[LeopardFan04]

Athletic scholarships should be given with a financial need blindness and an academic ability blindness.



The standards a school sets for the rest of the incoming class has nothing to do with that. IE, athletes are a well justified exceptions.


Does anything else count as a well justified exception? Should choir members who are especially talented be accepted without looking at finanical need or academic ability?

I guess my question is: Why are athletes well justified exceptions? Why can't they make the same academic requirements as the general student population?

[Go...gate]

Athletic scholarships should be given with a financial need blindness and an academic ability blindness.



The standards a school sets for the rest of the incoming class has nothing to do with that. IE, athletes are a well justified exceptions.

Which will result in an insolvent school with little academic credibility. There has to be a balance.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The IF he gets admitted questions will always be asked by the Patriot, Ivies, Daytons, W&M's, Villinova's and the like.

And at New Hampshire, Delaware, Albany, Furman, Elon, Wofford, Richmond, ...............

And I betcha another question that is asked is the potential to make the grade and stay in school without the "safety net" infrastructure that most FBS schools have in place.

[MplsBison]

Why are athletes well justified exceptions?

Because of the money they bring into the school.


Why can't they make the same academic requirements as the general student population?

I don't know why it happens, that's just how it is.


Every now and then a kid is both a great athlete and a great student. If they were all like that, this thread wouldn't exist.


The majority of athletes are below average academically.

I'm not making a judgment, it's simple statistics.


Why does that happen? I doubt anyone could tell you.




And again, it's not as if these athletes are getting someone to do their homework for them. They still have to pass the classes they take.

So if it actually is a situation where they don't have the brains for the school, they'll fail their classes and won't be eligible.

[MplsBison]

Which will result in an insolvent school with little academic credibility.

Stanford, Northwestern.

[Franks Tanks]

Athletic scholarships should be given with a financial need blindness and an academic ability blindness.



The standards a school sets for the rest of the incoming class has nothing to do with that. IE, athletes are a well justified exceptions.

Then why even have intercollegiant athletics? Semi-pro or minor leagues do exist, and if their is no interest in an education go their. Athletics are an integral part of college life, but they are not the reason for being for a university or college. The first and foremost purpose is to educate not make money, thats WHY we have professional leagues.

[Franks Tanks]

Stanford, Northwestern.

Show me the Kids at Stanford and Northwestern who have less than a 1,000 of their SAT's, or even a 1,200 for that matter. Your examples are terrible and dont support any type of point your trying to make.

[MplsBison]

Then why even have intercollegiant athletics? Semi-pro or minor leagues do exist, and if their is no interest in an education go their. Athletics are an integral part of college life, but they are not the reason for being for a university or college. The first and foremost purpose is to educate not make money, thats WHY we have professional leagues.

First of all, are their any real NFL minor leagues?

There's a few arena leagues.



Second, as I've said many times now:


*If a player can't meet the workload of the classes he chooses to take because the university is simply too advanced for his brainpower, he will fail those classes and be rendered ineligible.*


That right there is all that should be required.

[MplsBison]

Show me the Kids at Stanford and Northwestern who have less than a 1,000 of their SAT's, or even a 1,200 for that matter.

*points to football and basketball teams*


And likely they took the far superior ACT.



SAT is east coast garbage.

[Franks Tanks]

First of all, are their any real NFL minor leagues?

There's a few arena leagues.



Second, as I've said many times now:


*If a player can't meet the workload of the classes he chooses to take because the university is simply too advanced for his brainpower, he will fail those classes and be rendered ineligible.*


That right there is all that should be required.

Its not my problem minor league football is not up to snuff, its the athletes fault for being to dumb to get into college or not wanting to go to college. Its the athletes responsibility to qualify if he wanst to play, not the responsibility of the college to lower standards.

[Go...gate]

Stanford, Northwestern.

1-11 and 4-8 in 2006, respectively. Oh, and let's add Duke with their sparkling 0-11 record. You think this is because they are just taking any old athlete that can't read or write? How about Rutgers, which loses several players to academics each year? I'm sorry, I am having a hard time buying your thesis.

[Franks Tanks]

*points to football and basketball teams*


And likely they took the far superior ACT.



SAT is east coast garbage.


Ok fine, take the ACT the point was that football players at Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Duke, Virginia, are generally representative of their student body

[Maverick]

BSBison,
ACT is midwest garbage, but they do (or a created subsidiary) handle the NCAA freshman eligibility.

And your oversimplification of college academics and athletics is both laughable and pathetic. Maybe you should talk to some of the advisors for students at your college as well as those in athletics so that maybe they can smarten up a chump like you!

Simple statistics? Which ones?

The only thing simple here is you with your simpleton approach to things. But then again simple things for simple minds. Which covers your posting style most times!

[Franks Tanks]

1-11 and 4-8 in 2006, respectively. Oh, and let's add Duke with their sparkling 0-11 record. You think this is because they are just taking any old athlete that can't read or write? How about Rutgers, which loses several players to academics each year? I'm sorry, I am having a hard time buying your thesis.


Exactly I tried to make that point earlier and this was the response


Quote:
Originally Posted by Franks Tanks
You dont think Stanford and Duke have high standards for athletes?? If they didnt then why are the football teams at two great schools so awful?

MPLS Bison-

Can't say that about Stanford and Northwestern.

Even recently they've had good teams.


What a response. The funny thing is that he thinks the PL sucks cause we havent won a playoff game in 3 years, but Stanford had "good teams" when was teh last time thay had a winning record 2002?

[Maverick]

BSBison,
If those football players at Stanford and Northwestern are representative of the student body, then that makes them losers? But they are on scholarships, how could that be? If you give scholarships, you get better players!

See it is a little more complicated than you espouse. Maybe too complex for your stultifying simplicity?

xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Then why even have intercollegiant athletics? Semi-pro or minor leagues do exist, and if their is no interest in an education go their. Athletics are an integral part of college life, but they are not the reason for being for a university or college. The first and foremost purpose is to educate not make money, thats WHY we have professional leagues.


First of all, are their any real NFL minor leagues?

There's a few arena leagues.



Second, as I've said many times now:


*If a player can't meet the workload of the classes he chooses to take because the university is simply too advanced for his brainpower, he will fail those classes and be rendered ineligible.*


That right there is all that should be required.

I agree with you Frank and is a major reason why I don't like FBS football and my home state flagship university with their semi-professional athletic department. And if the academics weren't bad enough, they've become known as the UConVicts for some reason.

I guess we can expect APR hits at NDSU in the near future if MplsBison is accurate about the admission policies for Bison athletes. I think the majority of FCS schools would rather avoid the flunk out scenario you describe.

[MplsBison]

Its the athletes responsibility to qualify if he wanst to play, not the responsibility of the college to lower standards.

Nope, you don't get to have that discretion.

The NCAA gets to have it.


And they say that if an athlete passes the clearinghouse, that's good enough.




So it's not my problem that you're an elitist. Either get your school straightened out or you'll be kicked down to DIII. And take the Ivy brats with you.

East coast snobs.

[MplsBison]

1-11 and 4-8 in 2006, respectively.

They both went to bowl games in the 2000s.

[Go...gate]

They both went to bowl games in the 2000s.

Which were, by far, the exception, not the rule, regarding each school's football performance.

[Go...gate]

Nope, you don't get to have that discretion.

The NCAA gets to have it.


And they say that if an athlete passes the clearinghouse, that's good enough.




So it's not my problem that you're an elitist. Either get your school straightened out or you'll be kicked down to DIII. And take the Ivy brats with you.

East coast snobs.

Ahh, now we're getting someplace!!

Give me a minute whilst I go out and feed my polo-ponies and polish my Aston Martin.

[Franks Tanks]

They both went to bowl games in the 2000s.

Just like Colgate and Lehigh and Fordham and Lafayette made the playoffs in the 2000's. So in the Stanford and Northwestern example their modest success is consdiered competitive at their level, while the greater success of Patriot League teams inst considered competitive at their own level, interesting another contradiction that you tried to argue in another thread. Also you can certainly claim their is a level of east coast snobbery, but having mimimum standards to go to a college isnt an example of one xlolx

[No_Skill]

Eh...

well...

Um...

Don't...

I got nothin' xchinscratchx

[MplsBison]

but having mimimum standards to go to a college isnt an example of one

No, it isn't.

But giving athletes aid only if they clear those standards is.

[UAalum72]

So it's not my problem that you're an elitist.
Correct, it's your problem that you don't like the rules in place that almost everyone else here supports.

And the NCAA doesn't say you have to take an athlete that meets the clearinghouse, only that you can't play him if he doesn't.

[MplsBison]

I'll drop 2 of my 3 points because I feel that I've been beaten on them pretty much every way that you can be beaten.

Those 2 would be "you can't be successful using need based athletic aid" and "an athlete should be admitted to school by virtue of his athletic ability alone".

You can have a successful program using need based aid and an athlete shouldn't be admitted to the school just because he's a good athlete.

[MplsBison]

Lets assume that a football player is gifted enough academically to be admitted to a PL, IL, or PFL school on academic merit alone, but it so happens that he is being recruited to play on the football team.



Why then would you want to examine his family's financial standing in order to determine his financial need in order to determine the amount of athletic aid you will award him?


Why not just award him directly for his athletic ability with an athletic scholarship?

[AZGrizFan]

Lets assume that a football player is gifted enough academically to be admitted to a PL, IL, or PFL school on academic merit alone, but it so happens that he is being recruited to play on the football team.



Why then would you want to examine his family's financial standing in order to determine his financial need in order to determine the amount of athletic aid you will award him?


Why not just award him directly for his athletic ability with an athletic scholarship?

Dude. You are worse than the USD fans and their incessant whining about not being in the playoffs. xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx

[Model Citizen]

Why then would you want to examine his family's financial standing in order to determine his financial need in order to determine the amount of athletic aid you will award him?

WTF are you blabbering about? The PFL doesn't award athletic aid. Can't you read?

[Grizalltheway]

Lets assume that a football player is gifted enough academically to be admitted to a PL, IL, or PFL school on academic merit alone, but it so happens that he is being recruited to play on the football team.



Why then would you want to examine his family's financial standing in order to determine his financial need in order to determine the amount of athletic aid you will award him?


Why not just award him directly for his athletic ability with an athletic scholarship?

Didn't you just start a thread chastising the PL for not having athletic scholies? xconfusedx xconfusedx

[Col Hogan]

I love the student body chant at Northwestern home games, usually after they lose to one of their Big 10 opponents...

"That's All Right, That's OK, You'll work for us some day!!!!!

[UAalum72]

I love the student body chant at Northwestern home games, usually after they lose to one of their Big 10 opponents...

"That's All Right, That's OK, You'll work for us some day!!!!!

Also heard at Harvard and no doubt many others

[Franks Tanks]

Lets assume that a football player is gifted enough academically to be admitted to a PL, IL, or PFL school on academic merit alone, but it so happens that he is being recruited to play on the football team.



Why then would you want to examine his family's financial standing in order to determine his financial need in order to determine the amount of athletic aid you will award him?


Why not just award him directly for his athletic ability with an athletic scholarship?

Honestly I dont think you will find many Patriot league supporters that will disagree with you. We are tired of losing recruits to the Ivies, and we are allowed to give scholly's in all other sports. I feel they are on the horizon for football in 5-10 years but probably closer to the 10.

[MplsBison]

If the PL gives scholarships in football, will this result in the IL giving athletic scholarships in any sport?

[ngineer]

Ahh, now we're getting someplace!!

Give me a minute whilst I go out and feed my polo-ponies and polish my Aston Martin.


I dare say, old man, I believe the lad has an inferiority complex, tsk, tsk...Please pass the Grey Poupon, s'il vous plait xrolleyesx

[LeopardFan04]

If the PL gives scholarships in football, will this result in the IL giving athletic scholarships in any sport?


No. I don't think what the Patriot League does will change Ivy League minds...when the PL joined the playoffs the Ivy League didn't follow...

[blukeys]

Also heard at Harvard and no doubt many others

Lehigh folks like to use it too!!!

Never worked for anyone from Lehigh. I did have a boss who was a Marshall Grad.

[blukeys]

They both went to bowl games in the 2000s.

Wow what an endorsement!!!! All you need to get to some Bowl game is a better than .500 record.

[blukeys]

Nope, you don't get to have that discretion.

The NCAA gets to have it.


And they say that if an athlete passes the clearinghouse, that's good enough.




So it's not my problem that you're an elitist. Either get your school straightened out or you'll be kicked down to DIII. And take the Ivy brats with you.

East coast snobs.

I think we've discovered the reason for this and another thread. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[Franks Tanks]

MPLS Bison I know we have had some heated discussion over this issue and I would defintily like to call a truce :D. But I will concede you are right on one point, that it is rather dumb that we dont give scholarships, Especially when we spend just as much as most scholrship schools. It can all be tied back to the fact that we were susposssed to be created in the model of the Ivy League. We however have been giving basketball scholarships for years so obviously that philospohy has been blown up. The tide however is changing and the PL will have FB scholarships sometime pretty soon.

[MplsBison]

It's my opinion that at this level, assuming all academic requirements for a school have been met, an athlete deserves to be rewarded for his athletic ability without any consideration given to his family's financial situation.

If someone else has a different opinion, doesn't mean they're wrong.



No need for a truce. In the heat of battle, what's said on AGS stays on AGS. But truce accepted anyway.




Assuming the PL does get scholarships for football, the IL would be the only league left that gives need based athletic aid.

I'd love to hear from some Ivy people as to why they think that need based is superior. That is the reason the IL does that, right? It can't be some weird tradition.

[Ivytalk]

It's my opinion that at this level, assuming all academic requirements for a school have been met, an athlete deserves to be rewarded for his athletic ability without any consideration given to his family's financial situation.

If someone else has a different opinion, doesn't mean they're wrong.



No need for a truce. In the heat of battle, what's said on AGS stays on AGS. But truce accepted anyway.




Assuming the PL does get scholarships for football, the IL would be the only league left that gives need based athletic aid.

I'd love to hear from some Ivy people as to why they think that need based is superior. That is the reason the IL does that, right? It can't be some weird tradition.

I don't think it's superior. But you know what? It's the worst-kept secret in the world: if the Ivies want a kid, they'll find "need." Need=scholly. QED!xreadx xrulesx

[MplsBison]

So if a kid's dad makes 200k a year but he's a top recruit, they'll find 50k a year in grants to award him?

[Franks Tanks]

It's my opinion that at this level, assuming all academic requirements for a school have been met, an athlete deserves to be rewarded for his athletic ability without any consideration given to his family's financial situation.

If someone else has a different opinion, doesn't mean they're wrong.



No need for a truce. In the heat of battle, what's said on AGS stays on AGS. But truce accepted anyway.




Assuming the PL does get scholarships for football, the IL would be the only league left that gives need based athletic aid.

I'd love to hear from some Ivy people as to why they think that need based is superior. That is the reason the IL does that, right? It can't be some weird tradition.

Just a quick history lesson. In the very early days if college football the Ivy and to some extent Patriot League schools rules the roost. Lafayette 96 national champs baby, that is 1896 by the way xlolx. Anyway their was a ton of corruption in the early days by the Ivies and other eastern schools. They paid for players (not scholarships but cash) players bounced from team to team every season., and ringers were used constantly. The Ivies decided not to give scholarships as they felt they would lead to continued corruption and an athletics arm race that would detract from education, but this decision was made many many years ago and can be argued no longer applies. Then I guess some sort of tradition and the rules laid out in the Ivy groups agreement dictate no scholarships. I dont think that anyone feels need based aid is superior in attracting better student athletes, just not the case. The Patriot league schools have proven we can attrcat better student-athletes by giving scholarships But the uninformed still look at scholarships as evil and that it will turn the school into a footbal factory. I cant explain why that just their attitude.

[MplsBison]

So is there any hope for the IL to give scholarships?

Is there a next generation of presidents on the horizon or something?

[Go...gate]

MPLS Bison I know we have had some heated discussion over this issue and I would defintily like to call a truce :D. But I will concede you are right on one point, that it is rather dumb that we dont give scholarships, Especially when we spend just as much as most scholrship schools. It can all be tied back to the fact that we were susposssed to be created in the model of the Ivy League. We however have been giving basketball scholarships for years so obviously that philospohy has been blown up. The tide however is changing and the PL will have FB scholarships sometime pretty soon.

In the same spirit, may I also request a truce, MPLS.

[Go...gate]

So is there any hope for the IL to give scholarships?

Is there a next generation of presidents on the horizon or something?

It is doubtful. The Ivy is inceasingly out there on their own regarding this issue.

[Franks Tanks]

So is there any hope for the IL to give scholarships?

Is there a next generation of presidents on the horizon or something?

I doubt it, but the Ivies may be the only league who can get away with it. For example any student can go to the Harvard, Yale, or Princeton for free if the parents make less that 45k per year (I believe that is the figure) Also they are about some of the only school in the country where a recruit will pony up some bucks to get the name of an Ivy degree. The ancient 8 takes to change very slow, I will be happy if the participate in the playoffs first! (if they deserve to go of course)

[MplsBison]

In the same spirit, may I also request a truce, MPLS.

You may!

[MplsBison]

Well, I guess that about does it for my tirade on the issue.

Thanks to those who took the time to input some great info.

[colgate13]

Wow - this conversation was a doozy!

Two things to add:

- athletes bring money to the school? In what way, shape or form please? Revenue? Only at a handful of schools. Alumni donations? Please, don't flatter football players too much. Ever compare the alumni donation rates/amounts at schools that don't have football vs. those that do? Is the University of Chicago hurting financially because it doesn't have football? How about Smith College? It is a myth to think that a football team is required to keep alumni donations coming.

- You point to the NCAA minimums as minimums that all of Division I should have for admission and that should be the only criteria. I can guarantee you that it was not designed that way. It was designed as a minimum to prevent schools from losing any sort of academic integrity. Different schools cater to different populations and have different academic missions, so they enroll different students. The day that the NCAA minimum becomes the gold standard for all of Division I is the day that the next NCAA convention revisits the minimums and sees a significant body of schools looking to raise them - making it harder for some schools to have eligible players.

[Go...gate]

Wow - this conversation was a doozy!
Two things to add:

- athletes bring money to the school? In what way, shape or form please? Revenue? Only at a handful of schools. Alumni donations? Please, don't flatter football players too much. Ever compare the alumni donation rates/amounts at schools that don't have football vs. those that do? Is the University of Chicago hurting financially because it doesn't have football? How about Smith College? It is a myth to think that a football team is required to keep alumni donations coming.

- You point to the NCAA minimums as minimums that all of Division I should have for admission and that should be the only criteria. I can guarantee you that it was not designed that way. It was designed as a minimum to prevent schools from losing any sort of academic integrity. Different schools cater to different populations and have different academic missions, so they enroll different students. The day that the NCAA minimum becomes the gold standard for all of Division I is the day that the next NCAA convention revisits the minimums and sees a significant body of schools looking to raise them - making it harder for some schools to have eligible players.

Definitely a hell of a debate, but fun.

[Go...gate]

Right back at you.

[colgate13]

The first thing to grasp is the concept of merit aid in general. The Ivy does not give any at all - in any form. So to say that someone can get academic merit but not athletic does not fly at the Ivies. They simply do not pay for anyone to come there unless they need it.

Then, as my fellow PL posters have stated, it should be noted that the PL is moving towards a scholarship football direction - it is just going to take some time to get there. This is because the PL was first formed as the Colonial League for the express purpose of being a sister league to the Ivy for football. Same rules regarding athletics and academics. Some schools like Holy Cross gave up scholarships for the 'honor' of saying they were Ivy-Lite! There is change afoot, but it will take time.

Finally, you have to understand at these schools the faculty are a very influential bunch and many (but not all) have a general aversion to athletics in general. The folks in power at these schools are from that anti-establishment generation that didn't participate in team sports and thinks things like scholarships are evil. They have been a major antagonist along the way to change.

Oh, and football gets such a bad deal in the whole thing because it is the sport that is seen to get in the least qualfieid kids so the faculty dislike it from the start. Kind of ironic given the other conversation about letting in kids with even lower qualifications!

The bottom line is it is a hard sell to football scholarships when at least half if not a majority of the faculty do not see the point in Division I at all with these schools and would rather the schools played Division III - if any sports were offered at all - eh Lafayette? :)

[bison137]

So if a kid's dad makes 200k a year but he's a top recruit, they'll find 50k a year in grants to award him?


VERY doubtful.

On a similar note, before Bucknell began giving basketball scholarship a few years ago, they recruited a very good player by the name of Charles Lee. He ultimately was the PL POY and was the last player cut by the San Antonio Spurs this past summer. Despite his athletic prowess, Lee and his parents, a bus driver and an administrative assistant who were middle-class only because of two incomes, ended up with about $80,000 of loans to repay because BU didn't fudge the numbers.

I know this is true of many Bucknell athletes and, I suspect, many other PL athletes. I also know some very good Ivy athletes who are paying 100% of their own way.

[bison137]

So if a kid's dad makes 200k a year but he's a top recruit, they'll find 50k a year in grants to award him?


VERY doubtful.

On a similar note, before Bucknell began giving basketball scholarship a few years ago, they recruited a very good player by the name of Charles Lee. He ultimately was the PL POY and was the last player cut by the San Antonio Spurs this past summer. Despite his athletic prowess, Lee and his parents, a bus driver and an administrative assistant who were middle-class only because of two incomes, ended up with close to $80,000 of loans to repay because BU didn't fudge the numbers.

I know this is true of many Bucknell athletes and, I suspect, many other PL athletes. I also know some very good Ivy athletes who are paying 100% of their own way.

[MplsBison]

ended up with about $80,000 of loans to repay because BU didn't fudge the numbers.


Seems like the IL would rather have this than even allow for the possibility that coaches would start bringing in ringers.

[Johnny5]

Nope, you don't get to have that discretion.

The NCAA gets to have it.


And they say that if an athlete passes the clearinghouse, that's good enough.




So it's not my problem that you're an elitist. Either get your school straightened out or you'll be kicked down to DIII. And take the Ivy brats with you.

East coast snobs.

Ummm they can set standards to allow students into their university. Northwestern has been ok at best and Stanford subpar. Also, if you think academic standards are a joke look at Notre Dame. They don't let just anyone in and neither does BC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I doubt it, but the Ivies may be the only league who can get away with it. For example any student can go to the Harvard, Yale, or Princeton for free if the parents make less that 45k per year (I believe that is the figure) Also they are about some of the only school in the country where a recruit will pony up some bucks to get the name of an Ivy degree. The ancient 8 takes to change very slow, I will be happy if the participate in the playoffs first! (if they deserve to go of course)

It is significantly higher than that. I think the number is $65K. But it's also worth mentioning that not every Ivy can afford to be so generous with their aid dollars - only the biggest and richest (H-Y-P). Only if the other five decide to mutiny would there be any change - but how likely is that? What will they do? Go to another league? Make their own? They'd be nuts to give up the Ivy League brand and prestige.

Remember the only reason the PL changed its stand on men's basketball scholarships was when Fordham bolted and Holy Cross was going to bolt. Your best bet for change would be for Penn to publicly threaten to join the Patriot League over things like scholarships and playoff consideration, but it would take incredible vision and leadership to do so.

I see the PL as potentially driving eventual change in the Ivy League, if - and this is a big if - the leadership of the league is prepared to make bold decisions in order to revise their academic index model and include some form of scholarships. xtwocentsx

[colorless raider]

It is significantly higher than that. I think the number is $65K. But it's also worth mentioning that not every Ivy can afford to be so generous with their aid dollars - only the biggest and richest (H-Y-P). Only if the other five decide to mutiny would there be any change - but how likely is that? What will they do? Go to another league? Make their own? They'd be nuts to give up the Ivy League brand and prestige.

Remember the only reason the PL changed its stand on men's basketball scholarships was when Fordham bolted and Holy Cross was going to bolt. Your best bet for change would be for Penn to publicly threaten to join the Patriot League over things like scholarships and playoff consideration, but it would take incredible vision and leadership to do so.

I see the PL as potentially driving eventual change in the Ivy League, if - and this is a big if - the leadership of the league is prepared to make bold decisions in order to revise their academic index model and include some form of scholarships. xtwocentsx

I agree but I just don't think think these presidents are confident or bold enough to either amend the absurd AI or go to scholarships in football. I give either a 25% chance. I hope I am wrong because scheduling-to say nothing about wins- are becoming much tougher out of league.

[MplsBison]

I just don't think think these presidents are confident or bold enough to either amend the absurd AI or go to scholarships in football.


Then threaten them.

Tell them that their jobs are history unless they bend to the will of the alumni.

[Maverick]

BSBison,
Showing how much you know about the Patriot League schools is on par with how little you know about so many other things. xoopsx xoopsx

Why don't you just write all of them a letter explaining who you are and why they should do what you want? I am sure with the skills you have shown here such a letter could get the job done!

Maybe you could theaten them yourself by telling them you will start dumping all the BS you have posted on this board at their homes. That would be a serious threat!

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xthumbsupx

[Kosty]

Absolutely occurs at Stanford, Northwestern, Purdue, BOSTON COLLEGE, etc.

Do kids with less than stellar grades get in these schools? Sure...but they are the exception opposed to the rule.

Actually these schools mention belong to conferences that mostly do not accept kids with less than stellar grades, or what used to be Prop 48 kids. When was the last time you saw a non-qualifier go to a Stanford or Duke or BC or Purdue??? Hell, even Syracuse and UConn don't take non-quals!!!

[colgate13]

The financial aid number is $65k per year free ride at Harvard, yale, Princeton and I believe Stanford now too. Maybe UVA and Hopkins too. There have been others jumping on the bandwagon.

[MplsBison]

You can do great things with a 10-20 billion endowment.


Shoot, why not just pay the full cost for every student that has the academic ability to be accepted?

[blukeys]

Just a quick history lesson. In the very early days if college football the Ivy and to some extent Patriot League schools rules the roost. Lafayette 96 national champs baby, that is 1896 by the way xlolx. Anyway their was a ton of corruption in the early days by the Ivies and other eastern schools. They paid for players (not scholarships but cash) players bounced from team to team every season., and ringers were used constantly.


If you want a humorous but a fairly accurate view of the corruption in College Football in that era, rent or buy a copy of the Marx Brothers" movie Horsefeathers. It has some of the best lines in Movie History.

[DFW HOYA]

Shoot, why not just pay the full cost for every student that has the academic ability to be accepted?

This was discussed earlier. Many endowments are restricted to fund accounts that can't be used for athletic and/or financial aid--for example, faculty salaries, building maintenance, or research grants. A school cannot legally accept a $10 million gift for faculty and spend it on something else.

Only a handful of schools (less than 20) have athletic endowments above $20 million; hence, they can't foot the bill for every scholarship.

[MplsBison]

There must be some sort of precedent or protocol whereby a school can bypass the restrictions.


Perhaps say if the original donor of the gift has been dead for 50 years or something?

[DFW HOYA]

There must be some sort of precedent or protocol whereby a school can bypass the restrictions.

At that level, it's a binding agreement. Ask Yale, which took a $20 million gift from the Bass family of Ft. Worth and tried to divert it to another program. The donor asked for his money back, which may have inadvertently cost Yale a $500 million gift.

http://www.yale.edu/lt/bass/bassbrief.htm

[MplsBison]

Well obviously it's binding at the start.

I mean jeez, they didn't even wait until the guy was dead before they tried to use the money for something else.



But not even copyrights last forever.

There must be some way out of it.

[colgate13]

You can do great things with a 10-20 billion endowment.


Shoot, why not just pay the full cost for every student that has the academic ability to be accepted?

Like to know the real reason they don't - and in fact they raise costs by 5%+ a year? Because they can. Because people will pay it. It is a business, plain and simple.

It sounds sick and twisted but for all the talk that schools give about making it more affordable, no one wants to reduce their price and be seen as 'cheaper'. In these circles, an Ivy education is supposed to cost an arm and a leg or else, why does it even matter - from a marketing standpoint anyway?

Look at it this way: the Ivy League (etc) is essentially selling the Mercedes Benz of education. They are throwing in the AWD, the heated seats, the GPS navigation and everything. If they are trying to sell the world on the Mercedes Benz, they sure as hell aren't going to price it like a Kia! They are going to put a premium price on it and about half of the folks out there are going to write a big fat check every year and pay for it. The rest are going to get some help, but still pay a relative arm and a leg for it.

For whatever reason, 'normal' consumer decisions aren't being made when it comes to choosing our children's educations. We become the worst label whores of all time. The premium labels know this, and charge appropriately, just like say, Prada. Of course that shirt doesn't really cost $400, but hell, people will buy it all day long.

[colgate13]

There must be some sort of precedent or protocol whereby a school can bypass the restrictions.


Perhaps say if the original donor of the gift has been dead for 50 years or something?

You can go back to a donor or surviving relative and ask them to update/modify their deed of gift but you can't just spend it how you see fit. There are restrictions.

[MplsBison]

You can go back to a donor or surviving relative and ask them to update/modify their deed of gift but you can't just spend it how you see fit. There are restrictions.

But like I just said, even copyrights are finite length.


There can't be such a thing as a forever binding. Got to be some way to challenge it and break it.

[Maverick]

BSBison,
I can see your legal expertise matches your level of ignorance is so many other areas. You are consistent if nothing else. Your approach of "If I will it, there must be a way! still is rather amusing. The BSBison MO: I will tell you what needs to be done and all you have to do is find a way to do it!

You must be doing a lot of thinking when you are not working the pumps out front of the gas station where you are employed.

[bison137]

But like I just said, even copyrights are finite length.


There can't be such a thing as a forever binding. Got to be some way to challenge it and break it.



Actually there can be "such a thing as a forever binding" (sic), and there are many examples in law.

However, even if donations made 50+ years ago for specific purposes could be legally appropriated and given to the football team or some other group, would any ethical university consider doing such a thing?

[andy7171]

Actually there can be "such a thing as a forever binding" (sic), and there are many examples in law.

However, even if donations made 50+ years ago for specific purposes could be legally appropriated and given to the football team or some other group, would any ethical university consider doing such a thing?

When it comes to football, MPLS doesn't believe there is any ethics in higher learning.

[MplsBison]

would any ethical university consider doing such a thing?

As it wouldn't be unethical, I surely hope they would consider it.

[Maverick]

BSBison,
You are going to have to explain how that would not be unethical to do what you say. Are you contending that if it is done legally then it cannot be unethical? xnonox xnonox xnonox

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Can't speak for other conferences, but that 2003 was about the weakest Southern Conference ever...Georgia Southern and App State were terrible, and Furman was an abysmal 6-5. Wofford was the sole representative for the socon and may have been the second best team in that playoff. Montana, McNeese State, and a few other superpowers weren't that great that year also.

I'm not saying they didn't have a decent team, but I think the planets sort of aligned for them that year.

The PL teams also usually get stuck playing highly ranked teams in the first round. Colgate didn't.

*Now back to the present course of the discussion*

[MplsBison]

Are you contending that if it is done legally then it cannot be unethical?

Of course not.

That's a horrible slippery slope for you to set.


Simply, just as a copyright loses its context over time, so too would the restrictions on a donation. That's what I would think.

[colgate13]

Simply, just as a copyright loses its context over time, so too would the restrictions on a donation. That's what I would think.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Copyright is one thing - ONE THING - that runs out. There are numerous other legal examples where a contract is binding in perpetuity.

[MplsBison]

Seems apples/apples to me.

[bison137]

Simply, just as a copyright loses its context over time, so too would the restrictions on a donation. That's what I would think.



Fortunately what you think doesn't supersede the law. A copyright doesn't "lose its context" - it expires because that is the way the law is written. There was no specific law in effect when these conditional donations were made - hence the contract carries forward in perpetuity.

I would love to see you have a deed to a house, only to have the local municipality decide that your deed had lost its context over time and was now null and void.

[MplsBison]

Once I die, it is null and void.

So it's finite in that sense.


Same should apply to donations.

[ngineer]

Wow, talk about getting off topic...

[TheValleyRaider]

Can't speak for other conferences, but that 2003 was about the weakest Southern Conference ever...Georgia Southern and App State were terrible, and Furman was an abysmal 6-5. Wofford was the sole representative for the socon and may have been the second best team in that playoff. Montana, McNeese State, and a few other superpowers weren't that great that year also.

I'm not saying they didn't have a decent team, but I think the planets sort of aligned for them that year.

The PL teams also usually get stuck playing highly ranked teams in the first round. Colgate didn't.

*Now back to the present course of the discussion*

The UMass team we faced in the first round was easily Top 10, if not Top 5 in the country for most of the season, and was only a few weeks removed from taking UD to 3 overtimes at Delaware. And then we got a WIU team that won in Wa-Griz, not easy to do eve nif the Griz are relatively down. I'm not arguing that there wasn't some celestial alignment (as there usually is for these kinds of things), but it's not as if we played nobody to get there.

[colgate13]

Once I die, it is null and void.

So it's finite in that sense.


Same should apply to donations.

No, it's not. Ownership passes on through your will and your estate. It does not go to some other power. Your estate, if set up in certain ways, could consist of a trust which retains ownership of that house in perpetuity. You could set up the trust to pay for the taxes and upkeep. In that sense, your ownership of the house could exist infinitely.

The very same thing can be applied to donations. What do you think happens at major foundations? Do you think that once Bill and Melinda Gates die the Gates Foundation (worth $33 billion) trustees can use money that was gifted under certain deeds in other ways that they see fit? No, they will continue to do work in health care and education, as the Gates Foundation was set up to do.

You're really trying to bend whatever you can here to try and make your case. You might think it is stupid that schools can use restricted money how ever they see fit down the road but the same thing should not apply to donations just because you wish it so. It is restricted for a reason, and there is no way around it. Schools like Princeton have money they literally cannot spend for financial aid because the criteria surrounding the restricted award no longer exists or they can't find anyone to meet it.

[UncleSam]

The UMass team we faced in the first round was easily Top 10, if not Top 5 in the country for most of the season, and was only a few weeks removed from taking UD to 3 overtimes at Delaware. And then we got a WIU team that won in Wa-Griz, not easy to do eve nif the Griz are relatively down. I'm not arguing that there wasn't some celestial alignment (as there usually is for these kinds of things), but it's not as if we played nobody to get there.

Agreed, that UMass team was outstanding, probably as good or better then the one that went to the finals last year. Snow or no snow, Colgate beat a VERY good UMass team in '03.

[MplsBison]

Ownership passes on through your will and your estate.

Not if I don't have a will.

[Go...gate]

Once I die, it is null and void.

So it's finite in that sense.


Same should apply to donations.

No, it is not. It transfers to your Estate as a tangible asset.

[Go...gate]

Not if I don't have a will.


Yes, even if you don't have a will. You have an Estate by operation of law as a matter of Intestacy. This is observed by each of the fifty states.

[colgate13]

Seriously! Probably more than half of the point of a will is to avoid probate court, but your assets still go to your estate. The lack of a will is meaningless... and also pointless to the issue at hand.

[Mod33]

This thread has veered off course and is being closed.