Bad news comes...again!

[Grizzaholic]

Police: MSU football players, students bust into mayor's home
By TED SULLIVAN ([email protected]) and CAMDEN EASTERLING ([email protected]) Chronicle Staff Writer

Two incoming freshman Montana State University football players and two other men burst into Bozeman Mayor Jeff Krauss' home early Monday morning in an attempt to escape police.

The men, who police believed had been egging houses, were running from police at about 3:45 a.m. when they crawled through a basement window into Krauss' southside Park Place home, Bozeman Police Sgt. Steve Crawford said Tuesday.

The commotion woke Krauss up, and he went downstairs to find several people running through his house, he said.

“There were only two coherent things I heard, 'Stay down,' and ‘Running north,'” Krauss said. “It was pretty startling."

In the darkness, the mayor said, he couldn't tell who was speaking or who was running through his house. He later found out the speaker had been Bozeman Police Officer Cody Anderson, who was pursuing the men.

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2007/06/27/news/10msu.txt



Edit by Mod33: No link on article so entire article was deleted for copyright violation.

Edit by Mod33: Grizzaholic supplied me with a link and a partial story has been returned with link to full story.

[Grizzaholic]

I just wish all of this foolishness would stop, at both schools. I mean how dumb does one have to be to first run from the police then to break into a house to escape? I know we all have done some really dumb things when we were younger but this 'kids' were there for orientation for gods' sake. And I guess the topper is that the house they broke into was the mayor's.

Just another black eye for the state of Montana.

[BigApp]

good lord! wtf is going on in Bozeman?

[Grizzaholic]

Who knows. It seems like a prank or a little of the ' boys will be boys ' that went from bad to worse to way way worse. The light from the magnifing (sp) glass seems to be getting hotter and brighter everyday. I would hope all of the players see what is going on around them and take some kind of action, if and this is a BIG if the coaches haven't discussed it yet. If someone on the team or is becoming a part of the team is going to do something stupid that could portray the school in a bad light do some self policing and stop it before it starts!!

Both of the school coaching staffs need to, if they haven't already done so, call every athlete whether football, basketball, soccer, hockey, competetive basket weaving, etc.... to a meeting and discuss the new ZERO tolerence factor so this stops now.

[Dane96]

Whomever posted that it was the out-of-state kids causing problems...I point to this.

Man...kids are really going over the top these days!

[TheCatamount]

Wow, everyday it seems like I hear about something bad happening in Montana

[already123]

WOW!!! More bad news in Montana?!...whats the tally this month? xnonono2x xeekx xmadx xnonox


And on top of that...who throws eggs anymore. I mean honestly!...?xsmhx

[cats2506]

This ranks nowhere near the level of drug dealing or murder. It appears to be a prank that went bad when one kid entered a house to escape the police. Stupid YES, major problem NO.

[Hansel]

isn't "egging" kind of a junior high thing?

[Dane96]

At least they could have been creative: Get one of those t-shirt launchers and bomb away w/ water ballons from a distance...now THAT is some clean fun! ;)

[already123]

I guess it just now became cool to egg houses in Montana.....

[asu3peat]

WOW!!! More bad news in Montana?!...whats the tally this month? xnonono2x xeekx xmadx xnonox


And on top of that...who throws eggs anymore. I mean honestly!...?xsmhx


This is beginning to mirror the Cincinatti Bengals? It's unfortunate that these kids don't realize the opportunity they've been afforded. I can't personally condemn them because I, like many others (probably on this board), have done the same stuipd ***** only I didn't get caught! Which begs the question, why are our recruits being run down by the police? (better have been D linemen or O linemen)
*Note to coaches, recruit more speed!*
Good luck to both Montana schools on getting these issues under control.

[jstate83]

Sorry but something is NOT getting through to these players.

All the stuff that has transpired, it would seem they would be making an effort NOT to bring attention to themselves no matter what level of "foolishness" they on.xsmhx

This can't continue to be dismissed as a "few" bad apples.
Every week, there is a new thread about "Opps........They did it again".

Ya'll had a feild day on JSU and those 51 transfer's last year.
The ADM and coaches laid the law out for them and they have not crossed any lines to this date.

[Tealblood]

This ranks nowhere near the level of drug dealing or murder. It appears to be a prank that went bad when one kid entered a house to escape the police. Stupid YES, major problem NO.

dude wake up ya'll gots a problem

[McTailGator]

good lord! wtf is going on in Bozeman?

If you've never been to Bozeman you would know that that's about all they have to do there. xsmiley_wix

[GOKATS]

If you've never been to Bozeman you would know that that's about all they have to do there. xsmiley_wix

Aside from the fact that your one sentence post makes no sense, it's apparent you've never been to Bozeman.

I guess if you don't like fishing, hunting, hiking, camping, boating, skiing, golf, etc., etc., etc., there is nothing to do.xrolleyesx

[laxVik]

I've been to Bozeman. And if you don't like to fish, hunt or hike there ain't much to do. :D

Beautiful country though.

[catbob]

dude wake up ya'll gots a problem

We have a problem, but this isn't part of it. Drunk kids on the first time away from home deciding to egg a few houses doesn't spell the end of our program. They were dumb to run but they knew how much trouble they would get in if they were caught. I'm not exactly sure how they ended up hiding in the mayors house, however. I find the whole thing more funny than anything.

[catbob]

Sorry but something is NOT getting through to these players.

All the stuff that has transpired, it would seem they would be making an effort NOT to bring attention to themselves no matter what level of "foolishness" they on.xsmhx

This can't continue to be dismissed as a "few" bad apples.
Every week, there is a new thread about "Opps........They did it again".

Ya'll had a feild day on JSU and those 51 transfer's last year.
The ADM and coaches laid the law out for them and they have not crossed any lines to this date.

All I know is every school that thinks their program has players that NEVER get into trouble is being naive. 70 something college dudes will misbehave, there is no if. They either don't do anything serious, don't get caught, get caught and get a slap on the wrist, or cover it up. I'm glad all freshman, sophmore and juniors at JSU have never once drank a beer!

[NoCoDanny]

How is breaking into a home not a felony though? Particularly while being chased by the Police?

That's a quick way to die...

[jstate83]

All I know is every school that thinks their program has players that NEVER get into trouble is being naive. 70 something college dudes will misbehave, there is no if. They either don't do anything serious, don't get caught, get caught and get a slap on the wrist, or cover it up. I'm glad all freshman, sophmore and juniors at JSU have never once drank a beer!

Kill it dude.
YOU ain't that niave.xsmhx
And nobody has said or thought any of that you posted up there.

You can spin this all you want but when JSU got Brooks, from Tennessee, Frost and Haw from Ohio State, and the rest, ya'll had a field day talking about "bad seed's" on a team.
Everytime a player got in trouble somewhere, someone would chime in about JSU will take him.

I HAVE NOT FORGOT THAT yet still I held off even commenting on any of this til now cause it was not JSU's business.
Now that shat is actually happening at OTHER SCHOOLS, ya'll wanna come with the "everywhere" crap instead of addressing the problem.xnodx

Where are the JOKE's now?

[JBB]

Im glad they arent coming to Fargo. Im glad the BSC didnt expand west. They have problems. The league is being devalued by all the problems. Starting to look a little low rent and frayed around the edges.

Im sure it will all be taken care of, but the next couple years are criticle. How the coach handles this will be a huge signal to the team and league.

[CrazyCat]

Not making light of this "recruits gone wild" incident. But are they even officially a member of the football team yet? Just wondering.

[catbob]

Kill it dude.
YOU ain't that niave.xsmhx
And nobody has said or thought any of that you posted up there.

You can spin this all you want but when JSU got Brooks, from Tennessee, Frost and Haw from Ohio State, and the rest, ya'll had a field day talking about "bad seed's" on a team.
Everytime a player got in trouble somewhere, someone would chime in about JSU will take him.

I HAVE NOT FORGOT THAT yet still I held off even commenting on any of this til now cause it was not JSU's business.
Now that shat is actually happening at OTHER SCHOOLS, ya'll wanna come with the "everywhere" crap instead of addressing the problem.xnodx

Where are the JOKE's now?

What would you like me to address? That a couple of kids yet to even attend one class at MSU egged some houses (by the way, I take my previous statement - they weren't even charged with with drinking).

Don't accuse me of "having a field day", I haven't even heard of a single one of the players you just named.

If you wanted to comment on the other threads involving the drugs and murders, be my guest. But calling our program out because of a minor incident such as this is just silly. Yes, we have a problem here, we have addressed it by hiring a new coach, and hoping he can clean up the program. I don't blame anyone for soon to be college students away on orientation deciding to start some trouble. They WILL be punished by the new coach, that is all I can say.

But you said something is NOT getting through to these players, and these aren't even MSU athletes yet!

And the reason I said the bit about all programs having problems is you shouldn't blast other programs, because you eventual will eat some crow. For example, we got a lot of crap from Griz fans, and now they are dealing with their own *****.

I'm sorry people "had a field day" with your no name transfers but that doesn't mean you should take it out on MSU, especially on this minor incident.

[BlackfootBengal]

What you're seeing is the consequence of the police, schools, and media not dealing with incidents concering athletes. An athlete will not be able to Jay-Walk without making the paper. ISU went through this a couple of years ago, couple of kids get stupid, embarrass the police, school, and media, and all hell breaks lose. xbangx

[jstate83]

What would you like me to address? That a couple of kids yet to even attend one class at MSU egged some houses (by the way, I take my previous statement - they weren't even charged with with drinking).

Don't accuse me of "having a field day", I haven't even heard of a single one of the players you just named.

If you wanted to comment on the other threads involving the drugs and murders, be my guest. But calling our program out because of a minor incident such as this is just silly. Yes, we have a problem here, we have addressed it by hiring a new coach, and hoping he can clean up the program. I don't blame anyone for soon to be college students away on orientation deciding to start some trouble. They WILL be punished by the new coach, that is all I can say.

But you said something is NOT getting through to these players, and these aren't even MSU athletes yet!

And the reason I said the bit about all programs having problems is you shouldn't blast other programs, because you eventual will eat some crow. For example, we got a lot of crap from Griz fans, and now they are dealing with their own *****.

I'm sorry people "had a field day" with your no name transfers but that doesn't mean you should take it out on MSU, especially on this minor incident.


Man....................I'm not even interested anymore cause I see how this go here.

Have fun wondering who will be next. xthumbsupx

[catbob]

Don't let the door hit ya.

[Kill'em]

If you've never been to Bozeman you would know that that's about all they have to do there. xsmiley_wix

Aren't there girls there? ;)

[PantherRob82]

Wow. That would be crazy to wake up to. Ash will take care of it.

[GOKATS]

Wow. That would be crazy to wake up to. Ash will take care of it.

It's been taken care of- Ash was at a MSU booster lunch in Great Falls today and reportedly neither recruit will be dismissed or lose his schollie.

The following is from an attendee of the lunch:

"The 2 new recruits “made a stupid mistake”, are not getting kicked off the team, are not losing their schollies, but will be… “Very, very sorry about what they did” and Ash will handle it. He guaranteed they would never do anything stupid again after he gets through with them. People are overreaction to this issue IMO... probably due to all the latest crap going on. Terrible timing by these kids though, that I agree with."

From my perspective, a couple HS recruits who were on campus for freshman orientation (nothing to do with football) f'd up & got caught. Rather than a knee jerk reaction by a new coach, it appears Ash has the maturity and experience to know how to deal with minor issues such as this. JMHO

[jstate83]

Don't let the door hit ya.

And don't let the JAIL CELL slam on your arse when you visit your crimminal players.
Anything else..................xlolx

You want it ............ Come on cause bottom line is your shat means nothing to me so I can rag your arse all day long.

The only idiot that came in here with hurt feeling like a little B cause someone commented on your renagade program.
Is that better.............or shall I get worse.
That's the type of comments you want I got plenty YOUNGSTER. xnodx

1983..............Yo arse was probably out throwing egg's with the other kiddies.
Lawd a mercy the fool's on this board. xlolx

[patssle]

if that had happened in Texas, the players would of been shot. Is there no home defense in Montana?

[jstate83]

if that had happened in Texas, the players would of been shot. Is there no home defense in Montana?

Mississippi also.xnodx

Mississippi + Carry Permit + Castle doctrine(no retreat before force) = Dead idiot's.xnodx

[youwouldno]

I love how Montana St's football program is so crime-ridden that breaking into the house of the city's mayor is no big deal!!!

The fact they were 'only' egging houses just makes it worse. Who breaks into a house because they are afraid of the police catching them egg an house? There is no way those kids have an IQ above 75.

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

This thread is starting to get like the one where I made a joke about dubbing Montana and Deleware as "Transfer U" simply because they got a couple of transfer players.......xrolleyesx


With that said....The Jackson State fan has a point....people joke about incidents that happen at other schools (I kinda chuckled at the one the McNeese fan made about there being nothing to do in Bozeman)....but the moment something dumb happens at the school that person goes to or supports....they are quicker than a bolt of lightning to do one of two things:

1) Say the student athletes are from out of state or......
2) Somehow or someway say the students aren't a part of the program....


Regardless...the freshman there made a mistake and will pay the price (I think...)

Also...I'm like the Northern Colorado Fan (NoCoDanny I think it was)....How is breaking into a house not a felony??? Maybe that charge got dropped or something....

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

if that had happened in Texas, the players would of been shot. Is there no home defense in Montana?


^^^^^^^^^^^


Don't remind me.....

I'm still ducking....xnodx

[SeattleGriz]

I guess it just now became cool to egg houses in Montana.....

You should see how many U of M vs MSU games have had streakers. Juvenile? Yes. Funny? Hell Yes!!

[Grizalltheway]

I went to high school with Bignell, he was one year behind me. Although he's a pretty nice kid, this really doesn't surprise me, it didn't seem like he was all that mature. xtwocentsx

[patssle]

there arn't many mature 18 year olds out there anyways

[GOKATS]

I went to high school with Bignell, he was one year behind me. Although he's a pretty nice kid, this really doesn't surprise me, it didn't seem like he was all that mature. xtwocentsx

And you, being a year older (and a non student/athlete) come off as being so much more mature. xsmhx

Give me a break.......................

[Grizalltheway]

And you, being a year older (and a non student/athlete) come off as being so much more mature. xsmhx

Give me a break.......................

He's actually older than me, despite the fact that I'm a year ahead of him in school, perhaps he needed an extra year before he started 1st grade...?? At orientation last year I was at least smart enough and mature enough not to get drunk and start throwing eggs at peoples' houses, and then break into the mayor's house to try to "escape" the police. And I didn't even have an athletic scholarship at stake...

[PhantomCAT]

little known fact of the story is that one of the four (not a incoming freshmen) was friends of the mayors son. breaking and entering is not the whole truth and nothin but the truth.

also, both incoming freshmen went to each individual house and apologized for their juvenile hijinx.

just about all of us have done some egg throwing or like petty vandalism in our high school or early college days. most of us never got caught. I will go out on a limb and say that egg throwing and evading police, in not even in the same league as murder/drug trafficking.

Ash will handle this appropriately and "yall" can shut up now, the major crisis in leadership is behind MSU and hopefully we'll be seeing ya in the post seasonxthumbsupx

[Tod]

Mississippi also.xnodx

Mississippi + Carry Permit + Castle doctrine(no retreat before force) = Dead idiot's.xnodx

How sad that you think this situation would be better if these young men were dead. xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

[Grizalltheway]

little known fact of the story is that one of the four (not a incoming freshmen) was friends of the mayors son. breaking and entering is not the whole truth and nothin but the truth.

also, both incoming freshmen went to each individual house and apologized for their juvenile hijinx.

just about all of us have done some egg throwing or like petty vandalism in our high school or early college days. most of us never got caught. I will go out on a limb and say that egg throwing and evading police, in not even in the same league as murder/drug trafficking.

Ash will handle this appropriately and "yall" can shut up now, the major crisis in leadership is behind MSU and hopefully we'll be seeing ya in the post seasonxthumbsupx

Unless the mayor's son actually let them in, it's still breaking and entering.

[PhantomCAT]

Unless the mayor's son actually let them in, it's still breaking and entering.


my point was that if the mayor knew who his son was friends with and probably knew one of the 'FOUR', he may just drop the charges if anyxpeacex

[Grizalltheway]

my point was that if the mayor knew who his son was friends with and probably knew one of the 'FOUR', he may just drop the charges if anyxpeacex

Gotcha xthumbsupx

[Seawolf97]

It was stupid thing to do. Luckily no one got shot or hurt given the hour of the day and the confusion that must have go on. I really dont think this is a crime wave though.

[WyomingGrizFan]

Aren't there girls there?

I think it was but a couple months ago a hunter got caught screwing a dead elk. I don't think it was in Montana but if it was I wouldn't 'normally' think that that was an indication of the female population of Bozo-ville. But what would I know.

[GOKATS]

Quite obviously, not a damn thing.xeyebrowx

[SeattleGriz]

Aren't there girls there?

I think it was but a couple months ago a hunter got caught screwing a dead elk. I don't think it was in Montana but if it was I wouldn't 'normally' think that that was an indication of the female population of Bozo-ville. But what would I know.

No. That sort of stuff happens out here in Seattle.

I kid you not. A guy got killed last year in Enumclaw when a horse he was having sex with kicked him. His buddy who was videotaping it got some jail time.

[WyomingGrizFan]

Quite obviously, not a damn thing.xeyebrowx


I just knew I was going to get that type of response. Well, at least I don't carve notches on the side of my dick like gunfighters did on their six-shooter back in the good o' days for every conquest I strut my stuff over.

[AmsterBison]

if that had happened in Texas, the players would of been shot. Is there no home defense in Montana?

Same answer for the Mississippi poster and whoever else posted in the same vein.

In some states, blowing the heads of your neighbors' kids for trespassing would be perceived as an extremely anti-social activity to engage in. These states tend to have low crime rates. Hehe, think there's a connection? I do :)

[jstate83]

How sad that you think this situation would be better if these young men were dead. xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx


Do you even use common sense before you type.
You alway's go to the extreme before you even understand what's being said.

You bust into my house and I don't know you, I don't care who the F you are...................You catching bullets.xnodx
I'm not going to ask why the hell you in my house.

They run through my yard, you get cussed out.

Understand now?xsmhx

[jstate83]

BTW: Our Mayor..............King Frank Melton carries a .40 cal.
Be stupid and bust into his house.xlolx

If you don't know, log onto the Clarion Ledger and read anything with Frank Melton on it. xlolx

[jstate83]

Same answer for the Mississippi poster and whoever else posted in the same vein.

In some states, blowing the heads of your neighbors' kids for trespassing would be perceived as an extremely anti-social activity to engage in. These states tend to have low crime rates. Hehe, think there's a connection? I do :)

AHH................Check your fact's next time you come here fellow.
The District of Columbia where it's illegal to even own a hand gun is #1 on the Crime list.
ARIZONA is #2.
Mississippi is #27 and falling. xlolx

Don't even need to do a City by City comparison using your guidelines. xlolx

That kids stuff don't wash when it comes to breaking and entering no matter how "extreme" your wording is. xsmhx

"Bowing neighborhood kids head off".................xlolx
Do hysterical statement's like that usually shame people around you into your line of thought?xlolx

[AmsterBison]

AHH................Check your fact's next time you come here fellow.
The District of Columbia where it's illegal to even own a hand gun is #1 on the Crime list.
ARIZONA is #2.
Mississippi is #27 and falling. xlolx


I'm talking COMMUNITY and you are talking GOVERNMENT. Once a community breaks down to a certain point, it doesn't matter what the government does.

Anyway, North Dakota had the lowest murder rate of all 50 states in 2004 and 2005. Other states with extremely low murder rates were Montana, Vermont, South Dakota, and Wyoming. The crime rates are low because the people in these places view each other as neighbors and live in a community of like-minded people. They actually value the life and property of their neighbors. It has nothing to do with gun ownership, capital punishment, or the willingness of people to shoot their neighbor's kid. In fact, I'd argue that the latter two are symptoms of a very violent community rather than a cure.

A person who actually took your advice and killed unarmed kids in one of these low-crime states and then acted self-righteous about it would be viewed as little better than a rabid dog.

[The Moody1]

I find the whole thing more funny than anything.


I guess they didn't egg your house. Have you ever had to clean up that crap?

[jstate83]

I'm talking COMMUNITY and you are talking GOVERNMENT. Once a community breaks down to a certain point, it doesn't matter what the government does.

Anyway, North Dakota had the lowest murder rate of all 50 states in 2004 and 2005. Other states with extremely low murder rates were Montana, Vermont, South Dakota, and Wyoming. The crime rates are low because the people in these places view each other as neighbors and live in a community of like-minded people. They actually value the life and property of their neighbors. It has nothing to do with gun ownership, capital punishment, or the willingness of people to shoot their neighbor's kid. In fact, I'd argue that the latter two are symptoms of a very violent community rather than a cure.

A person who actually took your advice and killed unarmed kids in one of these low-crime states and then acted self-righteous about it would be viewed as little better than a rabid dog.

Rabid dog................When throwing temper tantrums, resort to name calling.
THAT'S NOT VERY "FORWARD THINKING " NOW IS IT? xlolx

You want a community by community comparrison in different cities?
You can't be that dumb.
I've already told you that WASHINGTON D.C, ONE BIG ARSE COMMUNITY, is the crime capital of the U.S.


As for your RABID dog statement, a hell of a lot of people would view that hysterical over the top statement about "Blowing kid's head off" as spineless.
Get off you dang "Holy than thou" high horse.

Killing unarmed kids........................Are you a broken record that only repeat's your own words?xnodx
Guess that crap do work with the people around you. xlolx

Gonna repeat it again?xlolx
Gonna say I walk up and down the street threatening to "Blow the head off neighborhood kids" again?xlolx

Get off the "whine" man. xnodx

BTW: Mr LOW CRIME................And according to where your Bio say you are located.

Let's compare where you live with the U.S. (http://qsi.cc/blog/archives/000144.html)

How does this compare to America? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports provide the answer. The UCR keeps track of gun use in three kinds of crime: murder, robbery and aggravated assault. There are 5.6 murders per 100,000 people in the US (page 19 of the linked PDF) with 63.4% involving firearms (table 2.9, page 23). Robberies run at 148.5 per 100,000 (p.32) with 42.0% involving guns (table 2.22, p.35). Aggravated assault occurs at a rate of 318.5 (p.36) with 18.3% gun use (table 2.24, p.38). This means that gun-related crime in the US runs at 124 per 100,000 people.

This is substantially higher than the 30 reported for the Netherlands, although the 72 rate in Amsterdam comes rather closer. But this is not the whole story. Does lower criminal gun ownership translate to lower crime rates overall? Looking at the FBI data in table 1 on page 64, the violent crime rate in the US was 504.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, while property crime ran at 3656.1 per 100,000 inhabitants. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.

More guns, less crime. What a surprise.

Damm.............................xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[SoCon48]

Good grief!!

[BisonBacker]

How is breaking into a home not a felony though? Particularly while being chased by the Police?

That's a quick way to die...

Yeah, a guy could get stabbed or something xlolx

[patssle]

oh yeah a gun debate, that'll end in harmony.

[Kill'em]

Rabid dog................When throwing temper tantrums, resort to name calling.
THAT'S NOT VERY "FORWARD THINKING " NOW IS IT? xlolx

You want a community by community comparrison in different cities?
You can't be that dumb.
I've already told you that WASHINGTON D.C, ONE BIG ARSE COMMUNITY, is the crime capital of the U.S.


As for your RABID dog statement, a hell of a lot of people would view that hysterical over the top statement about "Blowing kid's head off" as spineless.
Get off you dang "Holy than thou" high horse.

Killing unarmed kids........................Are you a broken record that only repeat's your own words?xnodx
Guess that crap do work with the people around you. xlolx

Gonna repeat it again?xlolx
Gonna say I walk up and down the street threatening to "Blow the head off neighborhood kids" again?xlolx

Get off the "whine" man. xnodx

BTW: Mr LOW CRIME................And according to where your Bio say you are located.

Let's compare where you live with the U.S. (http://qsi.cc/blog/archives/000144.html)

How does this compare to America? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports provide the answer. The UCR keeps track of gun use in three kinds of crime: murder, robbery and aggravated assault. There are 5.6 murders per 100,000 people in the US (page 19 of the linked PDF) with 63.4% involving firearms (table 2.9, page 23). Robberies run at 148.5 per 100,000 (p.32) with 42.0% involving guns (table 2.22, p.35). Aggravated assault occurs at a rate of 318.5 (p.36) with 18.3% gun use (table 2.24, p.38). This means that gun-related crime in the US runs at 124 per 100,000 people.

This is substantially higher than the 30 reported for the Netherlands, although the 72 rate in Amsterdam comes rather closer. But this is not the whole story. Does lower criminal gun ownership translate to lower crime rates overall? Looking at the FBI data in table 1 on page 64, the violent crime rate in the US was 504.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, while property crime ran at 3656.1 per 100,000 inhabitants. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.

More guns, less crime. What a surprise.

Damm.............................xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I'm not getting into the middle of this debate but I would love to see some statistics for Savannah. I think this would be the exception to your rule. Guns are legal and Savannah has had one of the highest violent crime rates-per-capita for years. I have a 4" hole in my back to remind me. And I still will never carry a gun.

Now back on topic, it still amazes me what these kids are thinking, if they are thinking about the consequences they might face by doing stupid things like this. Do they feel nothing would happen to them? I look at the five knuckleheads that got in trouble at Georgia Southern. I think of what they gave up for one night of lawlessness:
1 The most important- A FREE EDUCATION!
2 The privilege of playing football for Georgia Southern.
Man, I wish I had more talent to have played football, collegiately. How cool would it to have been to have been able to say I played for Erk Russell and to have been on the hallowed field at Paulson Stadium?

I don't get it!

[AmsterBison]

Rabid dog................When throwing temper tantrums, resort to name calling.
THAT'S NOT VERY "FORWARD THINKING " NOW IS IT? xlolx


Hehe, jstate83, no idea what in the world you are tying to say, but I'm sure not saying anything about gun control - it'd be my contention that gun control has negligible impact on violent crime and I'm not in favor of it.

My point is that it isn't guns or the threat of violence that make low-crime places safe, it's how people view the world. I guarantee people who kill other people have all sorts of rationalizations for justifying what they do.

Now maybe where you live society has broken down to the point where you have to sleep with the doors locked and assume that anybody who comes into your house uninvited pose such a danger that you must use deadly force, but lots of societies have not deteriorated to that point yet.

My point is that while killing those kids could be seen as a valid response in Texas or Mississippi, it probably would not be the case in Montana or the Dakotas, even if legally it's OK. And, yeah, I really think that you would be considered a rabid dog if you shot those kids and acted self-righteous about it - at least in North Dakota. You can view that as a sign of moral weakness if you choose, but I think you are missing the point.

[jstate83]

Hehe, jstate83, no idea what in the world you are tying to say, but I'm sure not saying anything about gun control - it'd be my contention that gun control has negligible impact on violent crime and I'm not in favor of it.

My point is that it isn't guns or the threat of violence that make low-crime places safe, it's how people view the world. I guarantee people who kill other people have all sorts of rationalizations for justifying what they do.
Yep....................Breaking into my house is one.

Now maybe where you live society has broken down to the point where you have to sleep with the doors locked and assume that anybody who comes into your house uninvited pose such a danger that you must use deadly force, but lots of societies have not deteriorated to that point yet.
Oh lawd.
More broad strokes from the Netherlands.
People that actually live in America......................Do you sleep with your door's unlocked?xlolx

Yadda Yadda Yadda..................My house, stay yo arse out if you don't have a key.
I'm not going to wait and see if you or any other fool is carrying a weapon.
How bout this.........................YOU DON'T LIVE THERE, DON'T BUST YO ARSE IN UNINVITED.

My point is that while killing those kids could be seen as a valid response in Texas or Mississippi, it probably would not be the case in Montana or the Dakotas, even if legally it's OK. And, yeah, I really think that you would be considered a rabid dog if you shot those kids and acted self-righteous about it - at least in North Dakota. You can view that as a sign of moral weakness if you choose, but I think you are missing the point.


My point is, SHOOTING those intruders would have been a vilid response ANYWHERE.
And the fact that your PIE BACK SPINELESS arse think I'm a RABID DOG for following the law while these mofo's break the law say's a lot about you.xnodx

I'm not missing any point.
I've heard that "It's not their fault" vomit from people like you so much, it's a joke.......................ACTUALLY FUNNY.

Debating life in the U.S. is not a strong point for you.xnodx

And not saying anything bad about North Dakota, but you can't be serious comparing North Dakota with 95% of the other populated places in the U.S.
North Dakota only has about 700,000 people in the entire STATE.
You would be lucky to run into a crimminal there...............In the SUMMER.
We ain't gonna even talk about those crime spree's that break out when the temps drop below 0 up there. xlolx

We got that many people in the Jackson Metro area alone and we are no where near the biggest area in the U.S.
Jackson has half of North Dakota's population by itself. xlolx
You can't be serious with that "Sleep with door's unlocked" bullshat are you?

[jstate83]

I'm not getting into the middle of this debate but I would love to see some statistics for Savannah. I think this would be the exception to your rule. Guns are legal and Savannah has had one of the highest violent crime rates-per-capita for years. I have a 4" hole in my back to remind me. And I still will never carry a gun.



Sorry to here that about your back.
Glad you survived and moved on to a good life.xthumbsupx
Don't have a problem with you refusing to carry a weapon at all.
Everybody has to make choices that best fit their lives.
Carring or Firing weapons is not for everyone and I respect people's decision to carry or not to carry.xnodx

I just don't have time for fool's like MR. High and Mighty making broad statements about anyone that don't agree with them.
They act like their word is god and right now, Mr. Amsterdam is talking like him and his society can walk on water.xlolx

[cats2506]

geeze, A coulpe of kids do a little egging and get caught and it turns into a fullblown debate on gun control and violent crime. Go figure!

[jstate83]

geeze, A coulpe of kids do a little egging and get caught and it turns into a fullblown debate on gun control and violent crime. Go figure!

Man........................Ain't it silly.xlolx
A poster from Texas and myself made personal comment on the LAW and what would happen if intruders burst into a home and I get the "Rules to make intruders comfortable" handbook read to me from this guy.

I believe he's visited 1 too many "Herb" cafe's in Amsterdam. xlolx

[cats2506]

This was posted on the bobcat board by dans father

Dan went to those peoples home to tell them how sorry he was for even being anywhere around that night. He told them he should have put a stop to any problems. He called all of his teachers and former coaches and told them that same thing. He is sorry for letting them down and for even being around that type of action. Here are his words:
Hello,

My name is Daniel Ogden. I am new to the Bozeman community and did not make a good first impression. I am one of the college students who ran through your neighborhood early Monday morning. I am also a new recruit for the Bobcat football team. I am here to apologize for adding to the confusion on that day.

My first day in Bozeman, I was invited to a house party (Sunday before the Monday orientation) – In my mind, this was going to be my first college experience and ended up being a very poor decision. When the police officers came – I ran… I was so scared – I just took off. All I could think about was not wanting to tell my parents I got caught at a party my first night in Bozeman – now I had to call them and tell them I obstructed a police officer when I ran. Dumb!

I was not one of the boys who egged houses – I believe they have been caught – but I am one who should have had more respect and common sense to know not to run. I am also one who talked to the detective and asked if I could come back to the neighborhood and apologize. I need to do this to help salvage my reputation here in Bozeman as an MSU student and to help rebuild the trust my parents have always given me – I know I really hurt them.

Please accept my apology. This is truly out of character for me. I am proud to be a high school honor role student, an athlete, a community youth volunteer, and a Bobcat like my father. I am not proud of the decision I made Monday morning and am hoping this letter and my coming to your neighborhood in person will begin to make things right again.

Sincerely,


Daniel Ogden

[jstate83]

This was posted on the bobcat board by dans father

Dan went to those peoples home to tell them how sorry he was for even being anywhere around that night. He told them he should have put a stop to any problems. He called all of his teachers and former coaches and told them that same thing. He is sorry for letting them down and for even being around that type of action. Here are his words:
Hello,

My name is Daniel Ogden. I am new to the Bozeman community and did not make a good first impression. I am one of the college students who ran through your neighborhood early Monday morning. I am also a new recruit for the Bobcat football team. I am here to apologize for adding to the confusion on that day.

My first day in Bozeman, I was invited to a house party (Sunday before the Monday orientation) – In my mind, this was going to be my first college experience and ended up being a very poor decision. When the police officers came – I ran… I was so scared – I just took off. All I could think about was not wanting to tell my parents I got caught at a party my first night in Bozeman – now I had to call them and tell them I obstructed a police officer when I ran. Dumb!

I was not one of the boys who egged houses – I believe they have been caught – but I am one who should have had more respect and common sense to know not to run. I am also one who talked to the detective and asked if I could come back to the neighborhood and apologize. I need to do this to help salvage my reputation here in Bozeman as an MSU student and to help rebuild the trust my parents have always given me – I know I really hurt them.

Please accept my apology. This is truly out of character for me. I am proud to be a high school honor role student, an athlete, a community youth volunteer, and a Bobcat like my father. I am not proud of the decision I made Monday morning and am hoping this letter and my coming to your neighborhood in person will begin to make things right again.

Sincerely,


Daniel Ogden

xthumbsupx xthumbsupx
He's big enough to do that then he will be alright.xnodx
He learned a lesson about how dangerous acting a fool COULD HAVE BEEN.xnodx

[cats2506]

This was also posted on the bobcat board by his father.

"They found the kids that were in the house and found the kids that egged the house. Dan and Clay did not do that."

It looks like the press jumped the gun a little, (if I can say tht here without another GC debate)

[YoUDeeMan]

"Yadda Yadda Yadda..................My house, stay yo arse out if you don't have a key.
I'm not going to wait and see if you or any other fool is carrying a weapon.
How bout this.........................YOU DON'T LIVE THERE, DON'T BUST YO ARSE IN UNINVITED."

Damn, I believe this is the second time I've agreed with js83. xnodx

[Grizzaholic]

This was posted on the bobcat board by dans father

Dan went to those peoples home to tell them how sorry he was for even being anywhere around that night. He told them he should have put a stop to any problems. He called all of his teachers and former coaches and told them that same thing. He is sorry for letting them down and for even being around that type of action. Here are his words:
Hello,

My name is Daniel Ogden. I am new to the Bozeman community and did not make a good first impression. I am one of the college students who ran through your neighborhood early Monday morning. I am also a new recruit for the Bobcat football team. I am here to apologize for adding to the confusion on that day.

My first day in Bozeman, I was invited to a house party (Sunday before the Monday orientation) – In my mind, this was going to be my first college experience and ended up being a very poor decision. When the police officers came – I ran… I was so scared – I just took off. All I could think about was not wanting to tell my parents I got caught at a party my first night in Bozeman – now I had to call them and tell them I obstructed a police officer when I ran. Dumb!

I was not one of the boys who egged houses – I believe they have been caught – but I am one who should have had more respect and common sense to know not to run. I am also one who talked to the detective and asked if I could come back to the neighborhood and apologize. I need to do this to help salvage my reputation here in Bozeman as an MSU student and to help rebuild the trust my parents have always given me – I know I really hurt them.

Please accept my apology. This is truly out of character for me. I am proud to be a high school honor role student, an athlete, a community youth volunteer, and a Bobcat like my father. I am not proud of the decision I made Monday morning and am hoping this letter and my coming to your neighborhood in person will begin to make things right again.

Sincerely,


Daniel Ogden

Good job by the kid standing up and taking his medicine. This kid should turn out all right.

[Kill'em]

This was also posted on the bobcat board by his father.

"They found the kids that were in the house and found the kids that egged the house. Dan and Clay did not do that."

It looks like the press jumped the gun a little, (if I can say tht here without another GC debate)

I agree about the debate. It seems like this kid took a big step toward being a man. It is not easy to admit guilt, publicly. I hope he realizes there should still be a price to pay for his actions and if he is willing to accept it and grow from it then the football team will get a better person.

[patssle]

the kid does deserve a 2nd chance. Rhett Bomar deserved it, and he got it. This kid should too.

Being a kid is about making mistakes and learning from them.

[Maverick]

My father had a variation on that:

Being a parent means making a kid and learning from it!!xlolx xlolx xlolx

Seeing as I am the second of five, I guess he didn't learn much. Or maybe it was like Bill Cosby once said when asked why he had 3 children. Because I didn't want to have 4!!

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I know this is an MSU incident, but anyone else find it ironic that June is Montana month at AGS? xconfusedx :D (sorry, that horrible joke probably has been made on a few different threads already)

It is bizarre how incidents seem to flow like a flood gate when they happen. Maybe there's a reason for that, but we all know that any of our programs are susceptible to problem athletes/students. No on is immune. xnonox

And the JSU stuff - I think we all here just get more riled up by transfers than recruits. First off, we would all prefer our teams recruit all the players we need. It usually doesn't happen that way though. Secondly, because a transfer can "define" a program in the media's eyes, those players are usually under a bigger microscope and people just can't wait to trash them if they screw up. But is there in reality any difference from taking a risk on a transfer with a history and recruiting an immature yet skilled, 18-yo kid with criminal tendencies? Not really...

[cats2506]

Im not sure if any of you understood my post.

Dan and Clay, the two football recrutes did not egg any houses and did not enter any houses, the attended a house party the night before freshman orentation and the police came to break up the party, the two football players ran and were charged with obstructing a police officer for that. they will serve 24 hrs in jail and community service and face disipline by the MSU coach including one year probation at MSU.

With all that has happened the press jumped the gun and reported it wrong.

I think they got a prety stiff penelty for what they actualy did.

[Bobcat in NC]

A more complete version of the above quote from Dan Ogden's father:

"Dan was not in the Mayor's House nor was he egging houses. That is a fact. He did run when he saw a spotlight. Those are the facts. Some of you are just like the press. You see some of the facts and try to lump everyone in together. They found the kids that were in the house and found the kids that egged the house. Dan and Clay did not do that.

After seeing some of the newspapers and television reporting, I was very upset. I just wanted everyone on this site to know that facts."

Sooooooo, now that we know a little more about what happened (By the way, we have no reason not to believe Mr. Ogden. He's probably more upset about this than anyone), it seems that a couple of young men at college orientation went to a party and ran when the cops came. They were subsequently caught. The MSU football recruits in question were not egging and they were not in the Mayor's house. Wow! This whole 8-page thread over nothing...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled ragging on a "crime-ridden", "renegade" program.

[Bobcat in NC]

Once again, 2506 beats me to it. Damn phone had to ring in the middle of my post. :(

I'm thinking that both Dan & Clay would be happy to trade a few more days of jail time for the little picnic that Coach Ash probably has in store for them.

[cats2506]

But we got to see a confusing debate over gun control and violent crime because of it.

OH and 2506 stands for Remmington 25-06

[already123]

anyone know why they were actually doing what they were doing anyways?....was it just a wild hair up their butt or what?xsmhx xnonox xsmhx xnonox

[Kill'em]

I think it has gotten to the point that people will react negatively when an athlete is in the news for a mistake because of all the bad things that have happened the last few months.

[cats2506]

anyone know why they were actually doing what they were doing anyways?....was it just a wild hair up their butt or what?xsmhx xnonox xsmhx xnonox

They were at orientation, they got invited to a houseparty, they are 18 and it sounded fun, at the party some other kids got to throwing eggs at houses. When the cops showed up they ran and were caught. I can honestly say that I doubt I would have done any different. The 2 football players did NOT throw eggs nor did they enter the Mayors house. Because they were football players and were caught running from the police the press ASSUMED that the did the other things also.

[GreatAppSt]

Because they were football players and were caught running from the police

Does not speak well for their speed, being run down by a donut jockey.:D

[CopperCat]

Does not speak well for their speed, being run down by a donut jockey.:D

That was chasing them in a souped-up patrol car.......

[Gorilla89]

Post deleted for copyright violation. No link provided so editing down wasn't an option.

Mod33

Makes it tough to argue at least.

[Bobcat in NC]

Does not speak well for their speed, being run down by a donut jockey.:D

I don't think they got "run down", but that they turned themselves in. Although one of the 2 (Dan Ogden) would readily admit that he's no threat to start at receiver (he goes 6'1" and about 275). In fact, a poster on BobcatNation related a story about an interview with Dan after he scored on a 60-yard run last year (he played some fullback in HS). To paraphrase a paraphrase, Dan said he was "like a fat kid stealing a box of doughnuts from Safeway and running away". He's a good kid who made a stupid mistake (I'd guess that at least 50% of the posters on AGS have run away from the police at one time or another in their lives), and is stepping up to take responsibility for his actions. From what I've heard, the punishments are pretty harsh (24 hours in jail, community service, one year school probation, not being allowed to play in the Shrine football game, plus whatever Coach Ash has in store for him).

I'd guess that this will be the last time y'all hear the names of Clay Bignell and Dan Ogden, until they're mowing through your offensive linemen and annihilating your quarterbacks in a year or two. :D

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

This was also posted on the bobcat board by his father.

"They found the kids that were in the house and found the kids that egged the house. Dan and Clay did not do that."

It looks like the press jumped the gun a little, (if I can say tht here without another GC debate)


Hmmm......starting to sounds like Boulder

[already123]

So do ya'll think the punishment they recieved was fair?

[CopperCat]

So do ya'll think the punishment they recieved was fair?

Yup.

[Mort]

So do ya'll think the punishment they recieved was fair?

Punishment as a citizen via the legal system - yes. Punishment of not playing in the Shrine Game - couldn't care less about that. Punishment from MSU - no. What punishment? Being redshirted and maintaining scholarships isn't punishment. Probation - big deal. If these kids are the "good kids" they claim to be, staying out of further trouble shouldn't be an issue at all. "Punishment" from the coach that's handled "internally" - sorry. Let's hear exactly what the coach has planned for them as far as punishment is concerned and let's hear it from the coach. He wanted us to know he made them go knock on the doors of the properties that were damaged. A good start and it looks good in a newspaper article, but what else? If it's an "exercise program", post it on the university's athletic department web site. If it's something else, what is it?

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense coming out of MSU. Wrist slapping doesn't solve the problem - when are people going to learn that at MSU? When the NCAA takes away more scholarships? When they take away playoff eligibility? When they shut the program down? When? There is obviously a lack of discipline at MSU - what's it going to take for the "leadership" there to recognize that, do the difficult thing and right the ship because it's obviously still taking on water.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. xsmhx xnonox xmadx

[CopperCat]

Punishment as a citizen via the legal system - yes. Punishment of not playing in the Shrine Game - couldn't care less about that. Punishment from MSU - no. What punishment? Being redshirted and maintaining scholarships isn't punishment. Probation - big deal. If these kids are the "good kids" they claim to be, staying out of further trouble shouldn't be an issue at all. "Punishment" from the coach that's handled "internally" - sorry. Let's hear exactly what the coach has planned for them as far as punishment is concerned and let's hear it from the coach. He wanted us to know he made them go knock on the doors of the properties that were damaged. A good start and it looks good in a newspaper article, but what else? If it's an "exercise program", post it on the university's athletic department web site. If it's something else, what is it?

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense coming out of MSU. Wrist slapping doesn't solve the problem - when are people going to learn that at MSU? When the NCAA takes away more scholarships? When they take away playoff eligibility? When they shut the program down? When? There is obviously a lack of discipline at MSU - what's it going to take for the "leadership" there to recognize that, do the difficult thing and right the ship because it's obviously still taking on water.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. xsmhx xnonox xmadx

You couldn't be more wrong about that. Worst generalization I've heard in awhile.

It is not the job of the athletic department to post player punishments on the website. That is something that is between the coach and the player. If the coach chooses to report it to the press, that is HIS choice. The penal system has already dealt with these two players, thus the punishment they received cannot be changed or altered. The punishment that they receive from the coach CAN be changed and altered. What these kids did was stupid. But you as a fellow human being cannot tell me that you have not done something stupid in your lifetime, especially when you were 18. A big part of the reason this is such a big deal is because of MSU's past run-ins with the law. Everybody has lambasted MSU with criticism the past few weeks, and it really isn't needed anymore. Kramer is gone, the problem players are gone, a new coach with a new approach is here, and he is dealing with these two freshman the way he should: his way.

Like my grandma used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

[catbob]

Punishment as a citizen via the legal system - yes. Punishment of not playing in the Shrine Game - couldn't care less about that. Punishment from MSU - no. What punishment? Being redshirted and maintaining scholarships isn't punishment. Probation - big deal. If these kids are the "good kids" they claim to be, staying out of further trouble shouldn't be an issue at all. "Punishment" from the coach that's handled "internally" - sorry. Let's hear exactly what the coach has planned for them as far as punishment is concerned and let's hear it from the coach. He wanted us to know he made them go knock on the doors of the properties that were damaged. A good start and it looks good in a newspaper article, but what else? If it's an "exercise program", post it on the university's athletic department web site. If it's something else, what is it?

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense coming out of MSU. Wrist slapping doesn't solve the problem - when are people going to learn that at MSU? When the NCAA takes away more scholarships? When they take away playoff eligibility? When they shut the program down? When? There is obviously a lack of discipline at MSU - what's it going to take for the "leadership" there to recognize that, do the difficult thing and right the ship because it's obviously still taking on water.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. xsmhx xnonox xmadx

Wow I completely disagree with that horrible generalization. You really want two these two kids, who supposedly didn't egg OR break into the house as they were accused of doing, to have their scholarships revoked? And since when do kids having minor brush-ins with the law cause the NCAA to take scholarships away?

I thought the "leadership" at MSU did do the difficult thing in firing the most popular coach MSU has seen in over 30 years.

You know as well as I do Mort that had those other major crimes not been committed by former players and a current one, that this little lapse in judgement would not probably not even be making national news.

This is a stupid incident and I'm not saying they should not be punished (I too think they should be forced to wash practice jerseys or some other kind of internal punishment), but to lump this incident in with the more serious crimes committed within the last few years is silly. They are unrelated. Horrible timing, agree, but come on, if the cops busted a party you were at, chances are you'd scramble too.

[already123]

do the crime, do the time....

since we are talkin about old sayings.....

[CopperCat]

do the crime, do the time....

since we are talkin about old sayings.....

WTH is that supposed to mean?

[CopperCat]

Wow I completely disagree with that horrible generalization. You really want two these two kids, who supposedly didn't egg OR break into the house as they were accused of doing, to have their scholarships revoked? And since when do kids having minor brush-ins with the law cause the NCAA to take scholarships away?

I thought the "leadership" at MSU did do the difficult thing in firing the most popular coach MSU has seen in over 30 years.

You know as well as I do Mort that had those other major crimes not been committed by former players and a current one, that this little lapse in judgement would not probably not even be making national news.

This is a stupid incident and I'm not saying they should not be punished (I too think they should be forced to wash practice jerseys or some other kind of internal punishment), but to lump this incident in with the more serious crimes committed within the last few years is silly. They are unrelated. Horrible timing, agree, but come on, if the cops busted a party you were at, chances are you'd scramble too.

But catbob, didn't you know that MSU football players are supposed to be perfect in every conceivable way?xrolleyesx

Well said my friend.xthumbsupx

[CopperCat]

do the crime, do the time....

since we are talkin about old sayings.....

Still wondering what you mean by this already........

[already123]

I mean what I said......

??

[Mort]

You couldn't be more wrong about that. Worst generalization I've heard in awhile.

It is not the job of the athletic department to post player punishments on the website. That is something that is between the coach and the player. If the coach chooses to report it to the press, that is HIS choice. The penal system has already dealt with these two players, thus the punishment they received cannot be changed or altered. The punishment that they receive from the coach CAN be changed and altered. What these kids did was stupid. But you as a fellow human being cannot tell me that you have not done something stupid in your lifetime, especially when you were 18. A big part of the reason this is such a big deal is because of MSU's past run-ins with the law. Everybody has lambasted MSU with criticism the past few weeks, and it really isn't needed anymore. Kramer is gone, the problem players are gone, a new coach with a new approach is here, and he is dealing with these two freshman the way he should: his way.

Like my grandma used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

A generalization – no. A bad debut – yes. He’s had one disciplinary decision to make and he whiffed on it. Redshirting them is not punishment since they were likely going to redshirt anyway. In addition, when the coach comes out and announces publicly some of his punishment (making the players knock on doors) then that opens him up to publicly announcing all of the punishment as far as I’m concerned. It’s obvious he made that statement because he wanted the public to know he was “doing something about it” and because making them knock on doors would be something that a lot of people would say “good for them” about. As I said, that’s a good start. But if Ash wants to play this public relations game then he has to go the whole way with it. He can’t have it both ways – either go public with everything or nothing. He chose to go public.

This isn’t about what I or anybody else has done in our lives when we were 18 or 19. It’s about MSU scholarship athletes, their behavior and the ramifications of that behavior. To try to make your comparison is ludicrous and is simply a way to try to shift the focus of the matter away from the problem and on to someone else.

Welcome to the grand illusion.

[Mort]

Wow I completely disagree with that horrible generalization. You really want two these two kids, who supposedly didn't egg OR break into the house as they were accused of doing, to have their scholarships revoked? And since when do kids having minor brush-ins with the law cause the NCAA to take scholarships away?

I thought the "leadership" at MSU did do the difficult thing in firing the most popular coach MSU has seen in over 30 years.

You know as well as I do Mort that had those other major crimes not been committed by former players and a current one, that this little lapse in judgement would not probably not even be making national news.

This is a stupid incident and I'm not saying they should not be punished (I too think they should be forced to wash practice jerseys or some other kind of internal punishment), but to lump this incident in with the more serious crimes committed within the last few years is silly. They are unrelated. Horrible timing, agree, but come on, if the cops busted a party you were at, chances are you'd scramble too.

I see you used the word “supposedly” in your statement about the egging and house entry. Whether we want to believe the local newspaper reporting, which references the local police account of the matter, or whether we want to believe message board accounts of the matter that state otherwise, is obviously up to each of us to decide. I have a tendency to put more emphasis on the published police account of the matter unless the paper does a retraction.

No, the NCAA doesn’t take away scholarships due to minor brushes with the law. That’s not what I said. What I said is that the wrist-slapping approach will not solve the problem – the problem that MSU athletics has right now and has had for a while with legal, academic and public relations issues. As a MSU fan I know you are aware of these matters so I won’t reiterate them. Continuation of the wrist-slapping approach is only going to make things like continued loss of scholarships, loss of playoff eligibility and athletic department-wide sanctions become reality. It continues to astound me how many people run from that because they just don’t want to hear it or deal with it. For the life of me, when are people going to understand that denial isn’t going to solve the problem. The law has to be laid down up there and kept down and every single player on that team and every coach on that staff had better have a crystal clear understanding of that. It doesn’t matter if its “just” egging – it still illustrates the lack of discipline that exists in that program and the wrist-slapping approach of punishment sends the wrong message to everyone. The days of just blowing this stuff off are over. It’s zero tolerance time and has been for a while now.

I agree that this incident and any others that occur in the next several years are going to get more scrutiny than they would have had if all of the other problems had not occurred. The fact of the matter is that they did occur and that’s the way it is and nothing but good behavior by all MSU athletes (and coaches) for the next several years is going to take the media spotlight (and the eyes of many people around the state and nation) off the athletic department. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, it’s simply the way it is in our “information superhighway” world. If any of the student-athletes or coaches don’t want that scrutiny or aren’t prepared to deal with it, they better get out right now. Also, it’s not just the media, it’s the public as a whole and now even the education commissioner has made a public statement about things at both MSU and UM. I want to see MSU maintain their football program but with the continuing behavior problems and the apparent desire to just blow them off, MSU is continuing to jeopardize its future. The last thing I want to see is the bureaucrats and politicians up in Helena step in and start calling the shots as to how things have to be done in either Bozeman or Missoula but if things don’t straighten out, that will happen. Just imagine for a minute what a disaster that would be.

As for the “most popular coach in over 30 years”, I seem to remember Dave Arnold being very popular in 1984 when the Cats won the national championship and he was I-AA national coach of the year. Also, not only was Sonny Holland very popular in 1976 when he won the national championship but Holland remains 'Mr. Bobcat' of MSU football to this day. I'd say that's being 'popular', wouldn't you? I think you need some historical perspective before you crown Kramer as the most popular coach in over 30 years. There's more to being popular in the eyers of many than having an outgoing personality and winning one playoff game. Let’s see how popular Kramer is 2 or 3 years from now when the dust has settled from all of the things that took place on his watch and when his settlement/legal matter with the state of Montana is completed.

[catbob]

Well since you can't seem to get past the point that these two kids are athletes, I'll remind you that they haven't even had a chance to get any discipline from a college coach. Why? Because they are not in college yet. If you have to blame a coach, which you seem to insist on doing, blame their their respective high school coaches. I simply cannot fault Coach Ash for players he did not recruit getting in trouble before ever attending a class at MSU or any sort of practice.

And yes, maybe 30 years was a bit of an exaggeration, but I wouldn't classify Dave Arnold as being as popular as Kramer. Yes he won a NC, but the other three years he coached he was a combined 6-27.

I guess I have a problem with this "wrist-slapping" accusation. Who exactly under Mike Kramer's tenure was just slapped on the wrist? As you know, only one player was a current player for Kramer when he was arrested, and he was immediately kicked off the team. Whether he knew about these ongoings from that player or other players during their time at a Bobcat, is and will always be up for debate. But I don't recall a single time that a Bobcat football was publicly in trouble with the law, and Kramer simply slapping them on the wrist. I guess I want you to elaborate more on this point.

Our desire to blow our problems off? Please, elaborate more on that as well. That is a very bold accusation and I want to see some facts. I thought firing a coach would argue against that, but you seem to have a different view on that.

And how popular Kramer ends up is of no consequence and completely irrelevant to this argument. The fact that he was adored by so many when he was fired does, however. The guy just lead us to the quarterfinals, and he gets canned. I call that making a hard decision, and wanting to right the ship in Bozeman.

[CopperCat]

A generalization – no. A bad debut – yes. He’s had one disciplinary decision to make and he whiffed on it. Redshirting them is not punishment since they were likely going to redshirt anyway. In addition, when the coach comes out and announces publicly some of his punishment (making the players knock on doors) then that opens him up to publicly announcing all of the punishment as far as I’m concerned. It’s obvious he made that statement because he wanted the public to know he was “doing something about it” and because making them knock on doors would be something that a lot of people would say “good for them” about. As I said, that’s a good start. But if Ash wants to play this public relations game then he has to go the whole way with it. He can’t have it both ways – either go public with everything or nothing. He chose to go public.

This isn’t about what I or anybody else has done in our lives when we were 18 or 19. It’s about MSU scholarship athletes, their behavior and the ramifications of that behavior. To try to make your comparison is ludicrous and is simply a way to try to shift the focus of the matter away from the problem and on to someone else.

Welcome to the grand illusion.

Yes, it is about what other people have done, because I am referring to something bigger than just MSU football players. I'm talking about people getting second chances, because EVERYBODY screws up, including you and me and everyone else on this board. Nobody is perfect. I'm not shifting the focus (THAT is a ridiculous argument) onto someone else, because there is nobody to shift the focus to.

If you're so sick of MSU's antics, then quit reading about them.

[james_lawfirm]

I see you used the word “supposedly” in your statement about the egging and house entry. Whether we want to believe the local newspaper reporting, which references the local police account of the matter, or whether we want to believe message board accounts of the matter that state otherwise, is obviously up to each of us to decide. I have a tendency to put more emphasis on the published police account of the matter unless the paper does a retraction.

No, the NCAA doesn’t take away scholarships due to minor brushes with the law. That’s not what I said. What I said is that the wrist-slapping approach will not solve the problem – the problem that MSU athletics has right now and has had for a while with legal, academic and public relations issues. As a MSU fan I know you are aware of these matters so I won’t reiterate them. Continuation of the wrist-slapping approach is only going to make things like continued loss of scholarships, loss of playoff eligibility and athletic department-wide sanctions become reality. It continues to astound me how many people run from that because they just don’t want to hear it or deal with it. For the life of me, when are people going to understand that denial isn’t going to solve the problem. The law has to be laid down up there and kept down and every single player on that team and every coach on that staff had better have a crystal clear understanding of that. It doesn’t matter if its “just” egging – it still illustrates the lack of discipline that exists in that program and the wrist-slapping approach of punishment sends the wrong message to everyone. The days of just blowing this stuff off are over. It’s zero tolerance time and has been for a while now.

I agree that this incident and any others that occur in the next several years are going to get more scrutiny than they would have had if all of the other problems had not occurred. The fact of the matter is that they did occur and that’s the way it is and nothing but good behavior by all MSU athletes (and coaches) for the next several years is going to take the media spotlight (and the eyes of many people around the state and nation) off the athletic department. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, it’s simply the way it is in our “information superhighway” world. If any of the student-athletes or coaches don’t want that scrutiny or aren’t prepared to deal with it, they better get out right now. Also, it’s not just the media, it’s the public as a whole and now even the education commissioner has made a public statement about things at both MSU and UM. I want to see MSU maintain their football program but with the continuing behavior problems and the apparent desire to just blow them off, MSU is continuing to jeopardize its future. The last thing I want to see is the bureaucrats and politicians up in Helena step in and start calling the shots as to how things have to be done in either Bozeman or Missoula but if things don’t straighten out, that will happen. Just imagine for a minute what a disaster that would be.

As for the “most popular coach in over 30 years”, I seem to remember Dave Arnold being very popular in 1984 when the Cats won the national championship and he was I-AA national coach of the year. Also, not only was Sonny Holland very popular in 1976 when he won the national championship but Holland remains 'Mr. Bobcat' of MSU football to this day. I'd say that's being 'popular', wouldn't you? I think you need some historical perspective before you crown Kramer as the most popular coach in over 30 years. There's more to being popular in the eyers of many than having an outgoing personality and winning one playoff game. Let’s see how popular Kramer is 2 or 3 years from now when the dust has settled from all of the things that took place on his watch and when his settlement/legal matter with the state of Montana is completed.

Mort:

Well said. You sir, are the voice of reason. I wish MSU well in righting its ship.

FYI, that quote on your signature line of Joe Theismann is not a misquote; although ESPN loves to think Joe was trying to reference the more famous Albert Einstein. Norman Einstein was the name of Joe's roommate in college. I am not making this up. He is truly a genius, and is now Dr. Norman Einstein, a physician. Dr. Einstein used to live in Lenoir, N.C., although I don't know if he still does. His son is only a few years older than mine, and they have played soccer together.

[Proud Griz Man]

Well since you can't seem to get past the point that these two kids are athletes, I'll remind you that they haven't even had a chance to get any discipline from a college coach. Why? Because they are not in college yet. If you have to blame a coach, which you seem to insist on doing, blame their their respective high school coaches. I simply cannot fault Coach Ash for players he did not recruit getting in trouble before ever attending a class at MSU or any sort of practice.

And yes, maybe 30 years was a bit of an exaggeration, but I wouldn't classify Dave Arnold as being as popular as Kramer. Yes he won a NC, but the other three years he coached he was a combined 6-27.

I guess I have a problem with this "wrist-slapping" accusation. Who exactly under Mike Kramer's tenure was just slapped on the wrist? As you know, only one player was a current player for Kramer when he was arrested, and he was immediately kicked off the team. Whether he knew about these ongoings from that player or other players during their time at a Bobcat, is and will always be up for debate. But I don't recall a single time that a Bobcat football was publicly in trouble with the law, and Kramer simply slapping them on the wrist. I guess I want you to elaborate more on this point.

Our desire to blow our problems off? Please, elaborate more on that as well. That is a very bold accusation and I want to see some facts. I thought firing a coach would argue against that, but you seem to have a different view on that.

And how popular Kramer ends up is of no consequence and completely irrelevant to this argument. The fact that he was adored by so many when he was fired does, however. The guy just lead us to the quarterfinals, and he gets canned. I call that making a hard decision, and wanting to right the ship in Bozeman.

I agree with your main point about MSU former-athletes. But I have not ever understood the Fuller situation, and whether Kramer/MSU knew he was arrested (arrested, but not charged) prior to the 2006 football season.xconfusedx


Montana State cornerback Andre Fuller pleaded not guilty in March to charges he sold cocaine to a confidential informant last June. He was suspended from the football team while the case is investigated.