Interesting Update for Ivy

[Go Green]

The Dartmouth Football blog did a Q&A with Coach Teevens over the weekend. Some of his answers were published in today's entry.


http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2020/10/buddy-teevens-answers-your-questions.html

The most interesting tidbit (at least to me) is Teevens' news the Ivy is willing to give a spring season a try so long as at least four Ivy schools can field teams. Teevens indicated (without naming anyone, although I can take a pretty good guess who he meant) that unless a vaccine appears, some schools are just not going to be able to field teams in the spring. He also indicated that all efforts would be made by Dartmouth to get a team together (at present, only seniors and freshmen are projected to be on campus in the spring).

[bulldog10jw]

Before a truncated spring season can be played, eligibility issues for current seniors must be decided. A three or four game spring schedule is practice, not a season.

[Go Green]

Before a truncated spring season can be played, eligibility issues for current seniors must be decided. A three or four game spring schedule is practice, not a season.

I suppose. Although that assumes that things will be materially different in Fall 2021. If a vaccine comes out, then great! If not... hard to see much difference so long as we have a significant portion of the population that declines to engage in preventative/protective behavior. The Columbia football blog said a few days ago that he didn't expect his campus to be open in Fall 2021.

Personally, if I were a senior that didn't have inclinations to play football professionally, I'd go with the shortened spring season and move on with my life on time. And hey- could be the easiest pathway to getting a championship ring as well! :)

[Baron Sardonicus]

As noted above, some/all Ivy League schools have restricted access for some students, e.g. no sophomores living on campus. Does this mean that football workouts are limited to only part of the teams? To further confuse the situation, it looks like the restricted groups will change for the spring semester. What are the implications of these restrictions, if any, for a spring season?

[ngineer]

If you guys do decide to go forward, perhaps those in close proximity to Patriot League schools could schedule a couple games. Penn/Princeton/Cornell w/Bucknell/Colgate/Lafayette/Lehigh/Gtown; Columbia/Yale w/Fordham; Brown/Harvard/Dartmouth w/Holy Cross; All within 2-4 hour drives.

[bonarae]

I do not know for certain how the restrictions for Ivy schools will work out in the spring, if athletes are indeed exempted from this.

However, I do not see myself a spring season for the Ivies, either. xsmhx

[Go Green]

However, I do not see myself a spring season for the Ivies, either. xsmhx

Ultimately, it's the Ivy Presidents' call. I believe that the conference call was with the Ivy's athletic people.

So yeah- far from a guarantee that anything happens. The only "news" is that if there is the proverbial "green light," then all we need is four teams to proceed with some form of a season.

And yeah- would be nice to get a OOC game or two in there as well.

[OhioHen]

If you guys do decide to go forward, perhaps those in close proximity to Patriot League schools could schedule a couple games. Penn/Princeton/Cornell w/Bucknell/Colgate/Lafayette/Lehigh/Gtown; Columbia/Yale w/Fordham; Brown/Harvard/Dartmouth w/Holy Cross; All within 2-4 hour drives.

Or, God forbid, they could challenge themselves with matchups against other nearby teams - Delaware, Monmouth, Villanova, Albany, Stony Brook, Northeastern, New Hampshire, Towson, Maine

[Go Green]

Before a truncated spring season can be played, eligibility issues for current seniors must be decided. A three or four game spring schedule is practice, not a season.

Turns out that Teevens did indeed address eligibility issues in the second half of his interview.

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2020/10/more-buddy-teevens-q.html

[Go Green]

Or, God forbid, they could challenge themselves with matchups against other nearby teams - Delaware, Monmouth, Villanova, Albany, Stony Brook, Northeastern, New Hampshire, Towson, Maine

Dartmouth was supposed to play Towson and Princeton was supposed to play Army this Fall.

:( :( :(

[bulldog10jw]

Dartmouth was supposed to play Towson and Princeton was supposed to play Army this Fall.

:( :( :(

And Yale was supposed to play Richmond again.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I would be surprised if either the Ivy or PL play any non-conference games.

I am hearing that IF the PL follows through on a spring season, it will be conference only. Let's see.

[Go Green]

Teevens indicated (without naming anyone, although I can take a pretty good guess who he meant) that unless a vaccine appears, some schools are just not going to be able to field teams in the spring.

Turns out that my guesses would not have been entirely correct.

The Yale Daily News reported yesterday that Dartmouth and Harvard are in the best shape to resume athletic competition. Brown and Cornell are next.

Penn, Princeton, Columbia, and Yale have a ways to go.

[Sader87]

There is no way Spring football games are played by the Ivies/Patriots in 2021....you guys are high....Fall of 2021? Hopefully

[DFW HOYA]

There is no way Spring football games are played by the Ivies/Patriots in 2021....you guys are high....Fall of 2021? Hopefully

At some point the PL has to make its own decisions.

[Go Green]

At some point the PL has to make its own decisions.

At present, which PL teams are projected to at least be able to possibly field teams in the Spring?

[ngineer]

Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate have all made representations that they are planning for a Spring season. Of course, these are the coaches and ADs talking. It's the Presidents who make the final call.

[Go Green]

Of course, these are the coaches and ADs talking. It's the Presidents who make the final call.

Ditto for the Ivy.

[DFW HOYA]

At present, which PL teams are projected to at least be able to possibly field teams in the Spring?

Probable:
Bucknell
Colgate
Holy Cross
Lehigh

Questionable:
Fordham (depending on NYC status)
Lafayette

Doubtful:
Georgetown (DC lockdown remains in force. George Washington University has already announced no in-person classes in the spring.)

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm going to predict no football for Fordham (not feasible in NYC by March IMO considering current political climate) and no football for Fauci College.

[bonarae]

xsmhx

We need to back a different horse for Spring 2021 if that is the case. We'll let them enjoy their show. xsighx

[Go Green]

I'm going to predict no football for Fordham (not feasible in NYC by March IMO considering current political climate)

I'd bet against Fordham as well. Columbia isn't even sure that they will be having any in-person instruction for Fall 2021, let alone Spring 2021. Hard to see the situation being better at Fordham...

[NY Crusader 2010]

Someone earlier in this thread brought up the topic of how little / whether or not Ivies were allowed to play FBS teams. I looked up the last time each Ivy played a I-A or FBS (not counting games against each other while Ivy League was still considered I-A up until '83):

Harvard -- 1992 @ Army L 21-20
Cornell -- 1991 @ Stanford L 56-6
Brown -- 1981 @ Army L 23-17
Columbia -- 1978 v. Rutgers @ Giants Stadium L 69-0
Dartmouth -- 1986 @ Navy L 45-0 => currently scheduled to play at Army in 2024
Yale -- 2014 v. Army W 49-43
Penn -- 1987 v. Navy L 38-28
Princeton -- 1986 v. Northwestern L 37-0 => was scheduled to play at Army this year prior to COVID-19

[dgtw]

The FBS rule that doesn’t count wins against non-scholarship teams for bowl eligibility probably limits their opportunities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DFW HOYA]

(Most) of the Patriot League has a more recent track record against I-A/FBS teams.

Holy Cross: Sep. 28, 2019 vs. Syracuse (Lost, 41-3) Next scheduled FBS game: 2021
Fordham: Sep. 7, 2019 vs. Ball St. (Lost, 57-29). Next scheduled FBS game: 2021
Colgate: Aug. 31, 2019 vs. Air Force (Lost, 48-7) Next scheduled FBS game: 2022
Lafayette: Nov. 10, 2018 vs. Army (Lost, 31-13) Next scheduled FBS game: 2021
Lehigh: Sep. 15, 2018 vs. Navy (Lost, 51-21)
Bucknell: Oct. 17, 2015 vs. Army (Lost, 21-14). Next scheduled FBS game: 2021
...
Georgetown: Nov. 25, 1950 vs. George Washington (Lost, 7-6)

[bulldog10jw]

Someone earlier in this thread brought up the topic of how little / whether or not Ivies were allowed to play FBS teams. I looked up the last time each Ivy played a I-A or FBS (not counting games against each other while Ivy League was still considered I-A up until '83):

Harvard -- 1992 @ Army L 21-20
Cornell -- 1991 @ Stanford L 56-6
Brown -- 1981 @ Army L 23-17
Columbia -- 1978 v. Rutgers @ Giants Stadium L 69-0
Dartmouth -- 1986 @ Navy L 45-0 => currently scheduled to play at Army in 2024
Yale -- 2014 v. Army W 49-43
Penn -- 1987 v. Navy L 38-28
Princeton -- 1986 v. Northwestern L 37-0 => was scheduled to play at Army this year prior to COVID-19

Yale has played several FBS teams since the seventies including multiple games against Army, and a couple against Navy, as well as games against Air Force, Miami of Ohio, Rutgers, and Hawaii.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The FBS rule that doesn’t count wins against non-scholarship teams for bowl eligibility probably limits their opportunities.


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Maybe now it does, but hat rule didn't exist until about 2005 or so. Prior to this rule, non-scholarship Patriot League teams used to play against I-A teams at least somewhat regularly. Meanwhile, the Ivies were not playing I-A's at all.

I also don't understand how most Ivies aren't considered bowl counters given that they give out more in financial aid equivalencies than a lot of scholarship schools do.

[DFW HOYA]

I also don't understand how most Ivies aren't considered bowl counters given that they give out more in financial aid equivalencies than a lot of scholarship schools do.

The wording in the NCAA bylaws is "grant-in aid for football", which Ivy aid is not specific to.

[bonarae]

Maybe now it does, but hat rule didn't exist until about 2005 or so. Prior to this rule, non-scholarship Patriot League teams used to play against I-A teams at least somewhat regularly. Meanwhile, the Ivies were not playing I-A's at all.

I also don't understand how most Ivies aren't considered bowl counters given that they give out more in financial aid equivalencies than a lot of scholarship schools do.

Can you find any sources regarding that rule regarding FBS bowl eligibility and non-scholarship opponents or the rule itself? Meanwhile... the Toreros are the only PFL team who regularly plays FBS schools... but they are head and shoulders above the rest of their brethren?

[FUBeAR]

Can you find any sources regarding that rule regarding FBS bowl eligibility and non-scholarship opponents or the rule itself? Meanwhile... the Toreros are the only PFL team who regularly plays FBS schools... but they are head and shoulders above the rest of their brethren?

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D119.pdf (Not the most current edition - sorry, feelin’ lazy this Sunday AM)
18.7.2.1.1 Exception—FootballChampionshipSubdivisionOpponent.[FBS] Eachyear,aFoot- ball Bowl Subdivision institution may count one victory against a Football Championship Subdivision op- ponent toward meeting the definition of a “deserving team,” provided the opponent has averaged 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of grants-in-aid per year in football during a rolling two-year period. (Adopted: 10/28/97 effective 8/1/98, Revised: 4/28/05, 12/15/06, 4/29/10 effective 8/1/10, 7/30/10)

ALSO...

Not counting a game against Southern Cal’s JV Squad in 1982, U. of San Diego has played only 1 game against an FBS / FBS-level opponent since their program re-start in 1969. The Toreros squared off against cross-town ‘rival,’ San Diego State, in 2015, in Qualcomm Stadium, and came away with a 37-3 loss. https://usdtoreros.com/news/2015/9/5/Toreros_drop_opener_to_Aztecs_37_3.aspx

[Go Green]

Someone earlier in this thread brought up the topic of how little / whether or not Ivies were allowed to play FBS teams. I looked up the last time each Ivy played a I-A or FBS (not counting games against each other while Ivy League was still considered I-A up until '83):

Harvard -- 1992 @ Army L 21-20
Cornell -- 1991 @ Stanford L 56-6
Brown -- 1981 @ Army L 23-17
Columbia -- 1978 v. Rutgers @ Giants Stadium L 69-0
Dartmouth -- 1986 @ Navy L 45-0 => currently scheduled to play at Army in 2024
Yale -- 2014 v. Army W 49-43
Penn -- 1987 v. Navy L 38-28
Princeton -- 1986 v. Northwestern L 37-0 => was scheduled to play at Army this year prior to COVID-19

Cornell just missed a I-A victory against Buffalo in 1998. UB made the jump to the MAC 1999.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yep -- I saw that score when I was looking through year-by-year results. I had to look up and see which year UB moved up to make sure I didn't miss that as a I-A win.

Buffalo wound up being the I-A whipping boy for the PL for a few years. I believe Lehigh beat them in 2004 and Colgate in 2002 and 2003.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Yep -- I saw that score when I was looking through year-by-year results. I had to look up and see which year UB moved up to make sure I didn't miss that as a I-A win.

Buffalo wound up being the I-A whipping boy for the PL for a few years. I believe Lehigh beat them in 2004 and Colgate in 2002 and 2003.

Lehigh was 2002 and Colgate was 2003. Those Bulls teams were absolutely awful. Nice to have a scalp but my goodness. The 1-11 Army team that HC beat in 2002 was probably a little better....

[NY Crusader 2010]

I remember following that 1-11 Army team in 2002. They were absolutely terrible, quite possibly worse than those Buffalo teams -- somehow they managed to beat Tulane, the only team they seemed to have sustained luck against in the old C-USA.

Todd Berry was the head coach at Army then and had the bright idea of installing a pro-style offense at a service academy. That 1-11 Army team was worse than the squad that went 0-13 a year or two later. The Holy Cross team that won at West Point went on to go 4-8 I believe.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Lehigh was 2002 and Colgate was 2003. Those Bulls teams were absolutely awful. Nice to have a scalp but my goodness. The 1-11 Army team that HC beat in 2002 was probably a little better....

You'll laugh -- I actually was just looking at the HC-Army Box Score from 2002. Wound up clicking around and noticed that the week after Army beat us, they got destroyed 44-0 by a horrendous Rutgers team -- a Rutgers team that was in fact SO BAD that they lost to that 1-11 Buffalo team by a score of 34-11. So on August 29th, Buffalo lost to Lehigh and a week later they ran a Big East team off the field...only to go on to go oh-fer the rest of their schedule.

[ngineer]

Brown lost to Penn State at Beaver Stadium in 1983, 38-21.

[Sader87]

Brown lost to Penn State at Beaver Stadium in 1983, 38-21.

I remembah that...Brown was decent I believe that year but JoePa took it easy on his alma mater I think.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Brown lost to Penn State at Beaver Stadium in 1983, 38-21.

I must've missed that one looking through Brown year-by-year results, thanks!

[Go Green]

Cornell's David Archer is not bullish on a Spring Season.

https://cornellsun.com/2020/10/21/archer-05-super-super-slim-chance-ivy-league-will-have-a-football-season-in-spring/

I think he's probably correct that if there is spring competition, facility priority will be given to athletes whose seasons were largely canceled in 2020.

I also think he's overstating the physical toll of playing both in the spring and the fall, because absolutely nobody thinks that there is a prayer of playing a full-slate of competition in the spring. Rather, we'd be lucky to get four games in...

But at least there's a chance!!!