"Scholarships anyone?"

[Andy]

Ed Laubach, in Saturday's Express-Times column entitled "Lafayette looks ready for bigtime",

http://www.pennlive.com/sports/expresstimes/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1182658562134290.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

starts off with:

"The final link to a coach's dream for a showcase Division I-AA football program at Lafayette College was completed earlier this month with the dedication of the Bourger Varsity Football House that stretches majestically from sideline to sideline behind the west end zone at Fisher Stadium.

Or was it?"

and ends with:

"This whole thing is a dream come true," a smiling Tavani says.

A dream, he hints, that perhaps isn't quite over.

Scholarships anyone? "

That's pretty tantalizing. Yes, LC has the facility and a coach who's made a public case for scholarships with his statements regarding the restrictive AI, but is this more than speculation by Ed? Does this "hint" indicate there's been some real movement toward a consensus in the PL on the scholarship issue? Has Lafayette, ironically, taken a leadership position on the issue? LFN, others?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting.

You could say that with the bazillion-dollar facilities that Lafayette sure is taking the lead on bring up the quality of the facilities of the Patriot League -- meaning they think our caliber of play and our league is worth the investment. In the past, Colgate's AD is on the record about wanting scholarships, and it's been widely speculated that some form of scholarships might be supported by a lot of ADs. I'm not sure I'd say just because coach Tavani or any PL ADs like scholarships means that the people that really need convincing (i.e., the league presidents) have made up their minds. But it is a compelling argument that allowing some scholarships would allow the PL to get students with better academic profiles.

Agreed that it is a tantalizing look, and agreed that it looks like things right now are boding well -- maybe -- for scholarships. But I doubt that Tavani or any AD (or me, for that matter) would have insight on the ten voices that really matter in the debate - university presidents. xtwocentsx

[Mr. C]

Why not give scholarships. If you can give them to basketball players, or other sports, why not football?

[Model Citizen]

If they can't maintain a facade of being non-scholarship, the Ivy League won't schedule them as much. xeyebrowx

[Tod]

If they can't maintain a facade of being non-scholarship, the Ivy League won't schedule them as much. xeyebrowx

Maybe true, but who will they schedule, then? xconfusedx

[Model Citizen]

The lucky ones will get USD. xsmiley_wix

[PantherRob82]

Why not give scholarships. If you can give them to basketball players, or other sports, why not football?

Do they give them for other sports? I know Drake doesn't?

[Tod]

The lucky ones will get USD. xsmiley_wix

xlolx xlolx xlolx

Alright, funny, but seriously, who would the Ivies play?

If going full scholly makes the PL a lot better, the rest of us may be in trouble. xeyebrowx

[DFW HOYA]

Does this "hint" indicate there's been some real movement toward a consensus in the PL on the scholarship issue?

If you start hearing from Holy Cross, Georgetown, or Bucknell, then it's news. In the meantime, I'd say there is not consensus.

[Model Citizen]

They actually might play more PFL teams, because they are non-scholarship.

If it were simply private schools they were after, I think we'd see more Ivy matchups against the likes of Richmond or Wofford.

[Tod]

They actually might play more PFL teams, because they are non-scholarship.

If it were simply private schools they were after, I think we'd see more Ivy matchups against the likes of Richmond or Wofford.

I think they're afraid of Richmond and Wofford, year in and year out. The schollies are hard to beat on a regular basis. They like the PL because they're similar in many ways. I don't think the Ivy League will be very happy if the PL goes full scholly. xtwocentsx

[TheValleyRaider]

Patriot League schools are allowed to give scholarships in any other sport they offer, and I believe they all do to some degree or another. Lafayette was, I believe, the last to get on board with any scholarships when they started for basketball a year ago.

I agree with DFW. Nothing really surprising here with Tavani and Lafayette asking/calling/begging for scholarships. Unless this portends Lafayette's President putting the issue to the other Presidents, then nothing is really changing. And even if this were to be brought up, no noise from outside of Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate about really taking the jump.

Even if the PL goes all the way with scholarships, I can't see the Ivy League dropping them from their schedules. Some of them are far too tradition-bound to change their schedule even the slightest. Dartmouth, for example, is locked into the exact same schedule through at least 2011, just alternating home/away each year. However, if they were to change, I think we're already seeing the Ivies branch out a bit with San Diego, Hampton upcoming on their schedules (I think Yale gets Army in the near future too). If the Ivy-Patriot scheduling begins to break apart, it'll be by mostly mutual agreement as both expand their opponent list xtwocentsx

[Andy]

I think they're afraid of Richmond and Wofford, year in and year out. The schollies are hard to beat on a regular basis. They like the PL because they're similar in many ways. I don't think the Ivy League will be very happy if the PL goes full scholly. xtwocentsx

True enough. The "Ivy Model" works great for the Ivies and less so for those trying to compete with them on their terms. I can't back it up with facts, but have the top Ivies seemingly gotten more aggressive in their recruiting? When they took a more passive approach, the PL had a fighting chance. If they're gonna go balls to the wall and exploit their advantages, I won't feel too bad for them if they feel like the PL abandoned them or whatever. We'll see what effect the dropping of early admissions has on their recruiting--Harvard and Princeton, too, I believe?

On the question of PL scholarships for other sports--the league has allowed scholarships in all sports except football since 1996, with members choosing to grant them in certain sports as they see fit. Lafayette, for instance, grants them in M & W bball, field hockey and M soccer. With the philosophical argument out of the way it's left non-insider guys like me quessing that the reason for retaining need-based aid in FB must be financial or tied to Title 9.

[MplsBison]

If they really wanted to turn heads, they should publicly threaten to leave the PL.


Why let a few wannabe DIII schools hold them back?

[youwouldno]

One thing I was just thinking about... if the PL went scholly, could that spur Ivy playoff participation? That would be a way for the Ivies to possibly counter if the PL escalates its commitment, without actually giving schollies themselves.

[DFW HOYA]

Why let a few wannabe DIII schools hold them back?

I thought they were Division II schools... xeyebrowx

Seriously, where would Lafayette go? Answer: wherever Lehigh goes. They're a matched entry. But they're among the founders of the PL and aren;t looking to go anywhere. In the end, it's up to the school presidents, not Tavani and Coen, as to the scope of their programs.

As to Ivy playoff participation, the fact remains that H-Y-P sees nothing in it, and they're not going to budge just because Penn or Brown's coaches like the idea.

[MplsBison]

Or maybe Layfayette, Lehigh, and Colgate decide that the PL will be a 63 scholarship league and any DIII team that doesn't like it can just get out?

[TheValleyRaider]

Or maybe Layfayette, Lehigh, and Colgate decide that the PL will be a 63 scholarship league and any DIII team that doesn't like it can just get out?

You mean like founding members Holy Cross and Bucknell? Or associate members with the history and pull of Fordham and Georgetown? Are we three going to go the Independent route then, instead? xreadx

[LeopardFan04]

Or maybe Layfayette, Lehigh, and Colgate decide that the PL will be a 63 scholarship league and any DIII team that doesn't like it can just get out?

I guess that works in theory, but what conference would take the three? I could see the remaining teams joining up with some of the non-scholarship schools for a new conference. But where do Lafayette, Lehigh, and Colgate play?

[UAalum72]

Or maybe Layfayette, Lehigh, and Colgate decide that the PL will be a 63 scholarship league and any DIII team that doesn't like it can just get out?
And then they don't have enough teams for an autobid

[ngineer]

If you start hearing from Holy Cross, Georgetown, or Bucknell, then it's news. In the meantime, I'd say there is not consensus.


Agreed--I think that is where the 'rubber meets the road'..unfortunately, I thnk the presidents will be taking a prophylatic stance on the 'old acadmia' image...though I hope I'm wrong.

[ngineer]

I guess that works in theory, but what conference would take the three? I could see the remaining teams joining up with some of the non-scholarship schools for a new conference. But where do Lafayette, Lehigh, and Colgate play?

If we were to go that route, then I 'd see a new league with some of the A-10 ,now CAA, schools in the northeast? By what I'm seeing the CAA is going to be too crowded with the new institutions expected to be joining...
...OR, howabout a new league of private schools with good academics:
Lehigh, Colgate, Lafayette, Richmond, Furman, Wofford, Villanova..??
HOWEVER, my sense is that the PL will eventually go with 'traditional' schollies within the next 3-5 years...

[MplsBison]

Lehigh, Layfayette, Colgate, UMass, Northeastern, Maine, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Albany?

All at 63 scholarships, of course.

[LeopardFan04]

I suppose I could see some of the CAA teams joining a new conference with PL teams (w/ 63 scholarships)...especially given that it looks like there's going to be a CAA shakeup in the next few years anyway...I see a new conference with small private schools as the more likely outcome though...

[DFW HOYA]

Remember, that's not just 63 scholarships in the discussion, it's 126, thanks to Title IX.

[MplsBison]

Not true.

There are 3 ways to satisfy title IX.

I forget what they are but I think one is proportionality or something like that and another is interest and abilities? Something weird I remember, but you don't automatically have to add exactly as many on the women's side. Depends on your current enrollment and participation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting stuff. Three observations though:

1) I see a lot of dreams forming here about Richmond, Villanova, etc. forming a new "scholarship and private league" in the future... I think that's just what it is, "dreams". Just remember while we're dreaming, the league may lose its best two schools for future expansion while waiting for a CAA breakup that is not very likely to happen.

2) Keep in mind the all-sports thoughts on this matter. The Patriot League is now maybe not the premier mid-major basketball conference (the CAA, MVC and America East are probably better), but they're in the discussion along with the Southland, Big South, and others. Football is an important piece, but a piece nonetheless, of the all-sports picture. That means Title IX restrictions are going to be taken seriously.

3) I think the big issue nobody is talking about is the "scholarship limits" required by FBS teams to have wins over FCS teams count as D-I wins. Not only does that threshold give a powerful incentive for PL schools to get up to speed ($500,000 guarantee games would do that), it is also possible that in the future there may be scholarship limitations on autobid eligibility - it has been floated in the past.

[Lafalumni29]

Read the article. Seems to be alot more than 'hinting' to me. I don't see any other reason for Ed writing the article than to firmly suggest that the Varsity house is just one step closer to the inevitable, scholarships. Hopefully, this next step will happen sooner rather than later.
Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, and GTown all have either Stony Brook or Albany on their schedules next year. I think the outcome of these games will be critical to how much the coaches and ADs push for scholarships. I think we are closer than most people realize.
Lafayette was the last to jump on board with schollies in Bball. Could football end up in the same situation with 3 schools adding schollies (LU,LC, CU) and leave the rest with a tough decision.
Is it a big Title IX issue if we already spend an amount equal to 55 equivalencies and add enough $$ to get to 63 and officially call them scholarships? Maybe I'm missing something but it sounds as if we only need to spread another 8 scholarships to womens athletics. Can someone shed some light on this??

[RichH2]

Given the haphazard schollie policy in non football sports, I think wemay see more movement in those sports to expand schollies by schools not using them and then perhaps 4-5 yrs down the road football will be dealt with .

Anumber of problems are already on the horizon with Albany, monmouth etc jumping into the pool and Stonybrook moreso with full schollies.

Also, it does appear that Ivies are recruiting much more effectively and much heavier now than in the last 5 or 6 yrs.

The PL must decide on a direction, including revising the AI within the next year or two at most or we do run the risk of becoming an irrelevant afterthought unable to consistently compete on the national level and relegated back to being the Ivies' designated dance partner.

[RichH2]

OOPS! and issue is " Will PL go for 63 or some lesser cap?"

[bison137]

Lafayette was the last to jump on board with schollies in Bball. Could football end up in the same situation with 3 schools adding schollies (LU,LC, CU) and leave the rest with a tough decision.
??


I don't think anyone could add football scholarships without it being approved by a majority of the league.

[MplsBison]

Then leave the league and the DIII teams in the dust.

Once things start boiling over in the CAA, a new league could be formed.

[bison137]

Then leave the league and the DIII teams in the dust.

Once things start boiling over in the CAA, a new league could be formed.


That will not happen. Unlike some leagues and some schools, football does not run the PL, nor does it run Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate. It would make no sense for any of the three to be competing in a league with CAA schools in sports other than football. When it comes to academic requirements, it wouldn't even make sense in football.

[Lafalumni29]

I don't think anyone could add football scholarships without it being approved by a majority of the league.
Then how was it done if bball? Did a majority approve and LC decided against it?
If that's the case, LU, LC, Gate, and I hear FU would be most likely be on board. Is that all we need?

[RichH2]

Probably but the conference by-laws would have to be amended. As said above it is the college presidents who will determine the move if any to athletic grants

[bison137]

Then how was it done if bball? Did a majority approve and LC decided against it?
If that's the case, LU, LC, Gate, and I hear FU would be most likely be on board. Is that all we need?


1. In basketball (and other sports), a majority (possibly 100%) of the Presidents' Council approved basketball scholarships, under the threat of Holy Cross leaving the league. I'm not sure that Lafayette voted against this provision (and one article implied they supported it), since a number of the schools who supported the measure did not immediately begin to offer hoops scholarships.

2. This measure passed at the end of 1996 - for basketball only. Scholarships in other sports were only approved a few years later. As best I can tell, this is when the first hoops scholarship classes entered: (1) Holy Cross - Fall 1998 ; (2) Lehigh - Fall 2000 (per Feinstein - "Last Amateurs"; (3) American - Fall 2001 (entered league); (4) Bucknell - Fall 2003; (5) Colgate - Fall 2004; (6) Lafayette - Fall 2006. Army and Navy, of course, have always been "scholarship" schools.

3. As Rich pointed out, the AD's do not have a vote, nor do the football coaches. Are you sure that the Presidents of LC, LU, CU, and FU are prepared to approve football scholarships at this point? Even at the risk of breaking up the league? I think it will eventually happen but that it is a few years away and will only happen after a lot of behind-the-scenes discussion and negotiating. It might happen faster if some HC alums who are major contributors pushed for it.

4. Looking at the by-laws, it is unclear who votes on such a proposal. All that is mentioned is that all changes in the by-laws must be approved by a majority of the Presidents' Council, which is defined as the Presidents of the eight permanent members. So does that mean that Army, Navy, and American get to vote on this issue, or is there some other provision not published here, or would they abstain since it is not their issue? Also there is no mention as to Fordham or Georgetown getting a vote - my guess is that neither of them would get a vote.

[Seawolf97]

One question. I think Colgate plays Buffalo in 2008 and Air Force in 2009. Will those be counter games?

[MplsBison]

You have to have averaged 90% of the maximum allowed equivalences the last 3 seasons for the games to count against the 6 wins needed to be eligible for a bowl game.

IE, you need to average 56.7.


Not sure how they count the equivalences.


It's on the FBS schools to check on that.





Sometimes a FBS will still schedule a FCS anyway. IE, FAU scheduled Southern Utah last season.

[Franks Tanks]

One question. I think Colgate plays Buffalo in 2008 and Air Force in 2009. Will those be counter games?

To my knowledge yes, Colgate does count as a win toward bowl eligibility--although I would make Buffalo a favorite against my local high school

[Seawolf97]

Good stuff - thanks

[Franks Tanks]

To my knowledge yes, Colgate does count as a win toward bowl eligibility--although I would make Buffalo a favorite against my local high school

That was suspossed to be wouldnt be a favoritre

[Seawolf97]

That could be a toss up. Colgate can be pretty good and Buffalo is not over whelming. It would be a nice win to take home.

[Go...gate]

One question. I think Colgate plays Buffalo in 2008 and Air Force in 2009. Will those be counter games?

I think it's AFA in 2013. I know we have been chatting up Army, though.

[Franks Tanks]

I think it's AFA in 2013. I know we have been chatting up Army, though.

Hopefully you will get a game with Army they are so frustrating. They of course are afraid to play Patriot teams as they have been so dreadful they will most likley lose.

[DFW HOYA]

Looking at the by-laws, it is unclear who votes on such a proposal. All that is mentioned is that all changes in the by-laws must be approved by a majority of the Presidents' Council, which is defined as the Presidents of the eight permanent members. So does that mean that Army, Navy, and American get to vote on this issue, or is there some other provision not published here, or would they abstain since it is not their issue? Also there is no mention as to Fordham or Georgetown getting a vote - my guess is that neither of them would get a vote.

I'd agree on both counts--the academies and American get a vote, Fordham and Georgetown do not.

[ngineer]

Not true.

There are 3 ways to satisfy title IX.

I forget what they are but I think one is proportionality or something like that and another is interest and abilities? Something weird I remember, but you don't automatically have to add exactly as many on the women's side. Depends on your current enrollment and participation.

Good point. Alot of people focus strictly on the raw numbers, whereas you can qualify in other ways. Various opportunities for woman have appeared in the shape of the dance teams we now see.. But it does depend on the proportionality of your student body. Since Lehigh is roughly 60-40 men, we can have a slightly different approach than a school that is 60-40 women.

[MplsBison]

Be nice if someone could quickly sum up the 3 different methods schools use to satisfy title IX.

[bison137]

Be nice if someone could quickly sum up the 3 different methods schools use to satisfy title IX.


The 3 ways to achieve compliance, as set forth almost 30 years ago, are:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. By demonstrating that intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or

2. Where members of one sex have been underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, by demonstrating a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the members of that sex; or

3. Where members of one sex are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, by demonstrating that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since these rules have been in effect for the better part of 30 years, it is getting hard to get by with #2 in a lot of cases, since women's sports would normally have caught up by now if there was "a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interests and abilities" of women.

In determining whether "opportunities" in #1 are relatively equal, there are a number of items to consider as to relative equality:

-accommodation of athletic interests and abilities, i.e. relatively equal number of roster spots, scholarship money, etc.
-equipment and supplies;
-scheduling of games and practice time;
-travel and per diem allowances;
-opportunity for coaching and academic tutoring;
-assignment and compensation of coaches and tutors;
-locker rooms and other facilities;
-medical and training services;
-housing and dining services; and
-publicity

[colgate13]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: the need-based money alreadying being spent on football is ALREADY BEING FIGURED INTO TITLE IX. So if Colgate is spending 56.7 equivalences, they can convert that to scholarships without Title IX implications. If they ratchet up to 63, that difference has to be accounted for on the women's side. MUCH DIFFERENT than a full 63 on the women's side.

IMHO this is just part of the general groundswell that will come to a head in the next few years.

Lafayette is on board... the real news is Holy Cross. When they budge - or the PL is prepared to show them the door for say, Marist or Stony Brook, we've got a scholarship league folks.

[MplsBison]

The 3 ways to achieve compliance, as set forth almost 30 years ago, are:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. By demonstrating that intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or

2. Where members of one sex have been underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, by demonstrating a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the members of that sex; or

3. Where members of one sex are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, by demonstrating that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since these rules have been in effect for the better part of 30 years, it is getting hard to get by with #2 in a lot of cases, since women's sports would normally have caught up by now if there was "a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interests and abilities" of women.

In determining whether "opportunities" in #1 are relatively equal, there are a number of items to consider as to relative equality:

-accommodation of athletic interests and abilities, i.e. relatively equal number of roster spots, scholarship money, etc.
-equipment and supplies;
-scheduling of games and practice time;
-travel and per diem allowances;
-opportunity for coaching and academic tutoring;
-assignment and compensation of coaches and tutors;
-locker rooms and other facilities;
-medical and training services;
-housing and dining services; and
-publicity

A bit long, but good nonetheless.

NDSU currently uses #3, but I believe we're aiming for #1, the gold standard.

[MplsBison]

So if Colgate is spending 56.7 equivalences, they can convert that to scholarships without Title IX implications.


But it's not an exact one to one "it's just scholarships with a different name".


There exists a philosophical difference with how Colgate's football money is given and how a normal FCS program gives scholarship money.


That difference will also have to be shored up.


Same with the rest of the Patriot League as well as the Ivy League and PFL, if they were forced to give scholarships.

[Lafalumni29]

But it's not an exact one to one "it's just scholarships with a different name".


There exists a philosophical difference with how Colgate's football money is given and how a normal FCS program gives scholarship money.


That difference will also have to be shored up.


Same with the rest of the Patriot League as well as the Ivy League and PFL, if they were forced to give scholarships.
....and that brings up a good point. I dont know that it would be that different in how the money could be distributed. Lets say we go scholarship next season (I wish). What is to say teams couldnt give partial money, the way it's always been done, for some kids willing to pay to play at our schools? Kids who may not be at the top of their recruiting list. This would free up more scholarship money to give to 'must have' kids. The only philosophical change is that instead of the money being given out based purely on need, money would be given out on athletic merit first. Makes sense? Anyway, I'm getting way ahead of this discussion, but I can dream.

[DetroitFlyer]

The PL aid is already counted by the NCAA as scholarships. I still have a hard time understanding how adding more traditional scholarships makes much of a difference. A kid still must meet the strict AI requirements just to be admitted. So, a high needs kid, who gets in, effectively receives a full ride due to the need based aid. A 4.0 student with a high ACT or SAT is admitted and can receive a full ride for academic performance. So, who are you losing out on from not being able to offer scholarships? I guess it is the kids from upper middle class families that cannot qualify for need based aid or academic aid. Maybe those kids can only receive a partial aid package and could be lost to an Albany or Monmouth, etc. Even so, how many of those kids in that situation get full rides to another FCS school? A few I imagine, but I think they also get more partial aid offers that make it an "interesting" decision. The "non-scholarship" PFL lands kids that were also looking at the IL or PL, so it seems that that partial offers out there allow the PL or PFL or Ivy to land good kids, even without full rides for athletics. Maybe the PL fans have a better idea how many recruits are lost to other programs due to the aid situation, but I just have a sense that it is not all that great.... How about it PL fans, how many kids are lost to traditional scholly programs in a typical year?

[MplsBison]

What is to say teams couldnt give partial money, the way it's always been done, for some kids willing to pay to play at our schools? Kids who may not be at the top of their recruiting list. This would free up more scholarship money to give to 'must have' kids.

Couldn't happen.

The NCAA takes into account all money spent this way.


The only philosophical change is that instead of the money being given out based purely on need, money would be given out on athletic merit first.

That's what I'm talking about.

The PL doesn't give money to football players based solely on their ability to play football, as they should.

The IL and PFL don't give money to football players period.



A scholarship should mean that the player gets automatically admitted to the school. As long as they pass the NCAA clearinghouse, that's good enough.

[jmuroller]

Question for the Pat Schools...how many players at each school(average) are on FULL schollies? Where they pay absolutely nothing to go to school?

[jmuroller]

Right now the Patriot schools loose out on a bunch of players that other schools get because they don't give out traditional schollies. In order for an athlete to get alot of money they must have GREAT grades and also other things come into account like family income and minority/non-minority status. If they switched over to traditional schollies then they could give that kid that has good enough grades(not great grades) a Full Ride. If it stays the same then they might only be able to give hime 3/4 of a ride.

[UAalum72]

A scholarship should mean that the player gets automatically admitted to the school. As long as they pass the NCAA clearinghouse, that's good enough.
The NCAA minimum is ridiculously low for a lot of schools. Instead of your crusade for scholarships, you should be campaigning for the NFL to set up a minor league system for football players who can't or don't want to handle real college work.

The college admissions department has to maintain control of who attends the school. Otherwise what's its function?

[bison137]

The PL aid is already counted by the NCAA as scholarships. I still have a hard time understanding how adding more traditional scholarships makes much of a difference. A kid still must meet the strict AI requirements just to be admitted. So, a high needs kid, who gets in, effectively receives a full ride due to the need based aid. A 4.0 student with a high ACT or SAT is admitted and can receive a full ride for academic performance. So, who are you losing out on from not being able to offer scholarships? I guess it is the kids from upper middle class families that cannot qualify for need based aid or academic aid. Maybe those kids can only receive a partial aid package and could be lost to an Albany or Monmouth, etc. Even so, how many of those kids in that situation get full rides to another FCS school? A few I imagine, but I think they also get more partial aid offers that make it an "interesting" decision. The "non-scholarship" PFL lands kids that were also looking at the IL or PL, so it seems that that partial offers out there allow the PL or PFL or Ivy to land good kids, even without full rides for athletics. Maybe the PL fans have a better idea how many recruits are lost to other programs due to the aid situation, but I just have a sense that it is not all that great.... How about it PL fans, how many kids are lost to traditional scholly programs in a typical year?


I think you dramatically underestimate how many players do not qualify for full need-based aid or, in many cases, any aid. The FAFSA formula effectively freezes out the entire middle class - not just the upper-middle class - and doesn't even give a full ride to the lower-middle class.

I don't have any stats on just football players, but in the overall student bodies of Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, and Lehigh, here are the pcts of students who qualified for ANY need-based aid:

Bucknell 45%
Colgate 39%
Lafayette 48%
Lehigh 42%

Further, the average aid given (grants and loans combined) for the four schools combined was only about 55% of the total cost of the schools (tuition, room, board, etc). Very few people qualify for a full free ride.

Note that all of these schools essentially meet all demonstrated need (three at 100%, LU at 98%), so it is not a situation where more people were eligible for aid but just did not get it.

[MplsBison]

The college admissions department has to maintain control of who attends the school. Otherwise what's its function?

They still would, as all admissions departments do now.


Simply, if a kid is given a scholarship to play football because of his ability, a strong consideration would be given because of that and he would likely be admitted.


Football players make up, at most, 3% of the student body (that's 100 players with 3000 enrolled).

Considering the amount of money they bring into the school, it's a small price to pay.

[MplsBison]

I think you dramatically underestimate how many players do not qualify for full need-based aid or, in many cases, any aid. The FAFSA formula effectively freezes out the entire middle class - not just the upper-middle class - and doesn't even give a full ride to the lower-middle class.

I don't have any stats on just football players, but in the overall student bodies of Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, and Lehigh, here are the pcts of students who qualified for ANY need-based aid:

Bucknell 45%
Colgate 39%
Lafayette 48%
Lehigh 42%

Further, the average aid given (grants and loans combined) for the four schools combined was only about 55% of the total cost of the schools (tuition, room, board, etc). Very few people qualify for a full free ride.

Note that all of these schools essentially meet all demonstrated need (three at 100%, LU at 98%), so it is not a situation where more people were eligible for aid but just did not get it.


Another great post.


The lack of the school being able to provide enough aid to pay for players to attend is obviously hurting the rest of the PL as they lose players to schools that give scholarships.

[bison137]

A scholarship should mean that the player gets automatically admitted to the school. As long as they pass the NCAA clearinghouse, that's good enough.


IMO any school that followed this sort of standard should no longer call itself a college or university. Here are some of the scores that pass the NCAA clearinghouse and make an athlete immediately eligible:

- GPA 3.55, SAT 400 (that's right - 400 - the score you get for signing your name!) This might be OK if the GPA always is meaningful for athletes, but there are a number of high schools that give away grades to athletes to help them qualify for scholarships.

- GPA 3.0, SAT 620 (again, an SAT score that only a functional illiterate or someone with serious learning disabilities couldn't achieve - most with this sort of SAT score do not belong in college since it is at the 3% percentile)

I know it may be hard to believe but Patriot League school actually believe their first mission is to educate and that athletes should also be reasonably normal students. Far more than half of all FCS football players would not be accepted at any PL school - probably well over 75%, although I don't have the time at the moment to do any research.

[MplsBison]

The SAT is worthless compared to the ACT.


As I said, the number of football players in comparison to even a small student body is meaninglessly small.



You act as if it's poisoning the well to let 100 kids in who can play ball but aren't Victorian scholars.

That's as elitist as it gets.

Come on.

[MplsBison]

And it's certainly not as if your school's professors are simply going to pass those players on!


Those players will still have to earn every grade they get in your super school.

[UAalum72]

Couldn't happen.
A scholarship should mean that the player gets automatically admitted to the school. As long as they pass the NCAA clearinghouse, that's good enough.


Simply, if a kid is given a scholarship to play football because of his ability, a strong consideration would be given because of that and he would likely be admitted.
Sorry, when you said 'automatically' I figured all the players got admitted. That is, I mistakenly thought you meant what you wrote.

[Dane96]

The SAT is worthless compared to the ACT.


As I said, the number of football players in comparison to even a small student body is meaninglessly small.



You act as if it's poisoning the well to let 100 kids in who can play ball but aren't Victorian scholars.

That's as elitist as it gets.

Come on.

If this wasn't such a great forum and there were rules for banning those speaking out of your arse constantly, you would be Prime Candidate #1.

Believe me, I know elitism (my SAT score was 10 points off of what Princeton allowed for Baseball...and the coach begged and cajoled and still couldn't get me in), but your comment is just off the wall.

SCHOOLS ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF EDUCATING...first and foremost. While I am not secured by a bubble and do understand that for the most part the top athletic schools are feeder systems for the major sports leagues around the world, this still does not take away the "education first" mission of our nation's schools.

The "anti-athletic" establishment have you (and others like you) to thank for providing them ammunition on what is wrong with college athletics.

IT IS A PRIVILEGE...not a RIGHT...to play college sports; The least we can expect is some sort of academic intelligence, hence the LOWEST OF LOW parameters nationally.

To scorn schools (and leagues) that require a bit more is so out there...it cannot be comprehended. The poster is not intimating that letting in 100 sub-par players will "poison" the well, rather the poster (I believe) is trying to say that college athletics should not be in the business of rewaring those who don't care to put in the MINIMAL effort.

Finally, since when are you the authority on the relative value of the SAT vs. ACT. In certain parts of the country, the ACT test is not even on a kid's radar (e.g. the Northeast).

[Go...gate]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: the need-based money alreadying being spent on football is ALREADY BEING FIGURED INTO TITLE IX. So if Colgate is spending 56.7 equivalences, they can convert that to scholarships without Title IX implications. If they ratchet up to 63, that difference has to be accounted for on the women's side. MUCH DIFFERENT than a full 63 on the women's side.

IMHO this is just part of the general groundswell that will come to a head in the next few years.

Lafayette is on board... the real news is Holy Cross. When they budge - or the PL is prepared to show them the door for say, Marist or Stony Brook, we've got a scholarship league folks.

Thanks - I was trying to find a previous post which you had made on this, as I forgot how the formula worked. :)

[Go...gate]

Right now the Patriot schools loose out on a bunch of players that other schools get because they don't give out traditional schollies. In order for an athlete to get alot of money they must have GREAT grades and also other things come into account like family income and minority/non-minority status. If they switched over to traditional schollies then they could give that kid that has good enough grades(not great grades) a Full Ride. If it stays the same then they might only be able to give him 3/4 of a ride.

This is why the PL has no consensus on this, and I still have some sympathy to the old "Ivy" model. I opposed athletic scholarships of any kind and maintained this position for many years - even after the PL adopted them - until I learned that the PL was using them for kids who were good players with good grades, not simply as a means to attract marginal students who were good or great athletes.

[Dane96]

Exactly Go...Gate.

While I will not get into an educational choice argument, it a kid can pay next to nothing to go to a state school (or an out-of-state school with a full-ride) or have to pay a boat load to go to a PL...it becomes a tough choice for that kid.

While the kid may have good solid grades, the choice comes down to what he wants his resume to say post-athletics. That being said, with graduate school a MAJOR destination post-college/post-early career, a kid may not want to start life off 100k in the hole (assuming grant money at a PL is given) for undergrad...and another 80-200k in the hole for post-grad (depending on program and school).

If a kid has good grades...why should the PL not offer him a ride to help with those costs without regard to family income?! Good grades SHOULD be rewarded!!!

[bison137]

Exactly Go...Gate.

If a kid has good grades...why should the PL not offer him a ride to help with those costs without regard to family income?! Good grades SHOULD be rewarded!!!

Of course one could argue, and some do, that if good grades are going to be rewarded, it should not only be for athletes but rather for all students.

[DetroitFlyer]

I'm thinking that the PL could offer a full ride to a kid with great grades. I know that Dayton landed a kid with a 4.0 GPA and good ACT scores.... He was also on the radar for the Ivy League. I'm betting, although I have no way to know, that Dayton was able to offer an attractive enough aid packagefor academics, combined with being close to his home town, that the kid chose UD over his Ivy offers.... I'm thinking the same thing could play out in PL schools for kids with great grades. They may get zero athletic aid, but a good aid package for academics. Where there might be a hole is the kids from middle class families, with say a 3.3 GPA and slightly above average SAT or ACT scores. This kid may not be able to get a decent aid package at a PL school, but if he is a great football player, many full scholarship schools could give him a full ride for athletics. Again, I do not see a kid like this being admitted to a PL school anyway, so the aid thing is a bit mute. Unless the PL is going to significantly lower their standards to admit "athletes", I still struggle to see how moving to traditional scholarships is going to help much.... If the PL wanted to be like the NEC, they would not be the PL.... Maybe a few top students will accept a free ride at Albany versus a ton of debt to go to Fordham, but if a kid is PL material to begin with, I have a feeling that more often than not, the PL gets him.... Of course I am not a PL coach losing recruits to the NEC, but I still suspect the "problem" is not a big as it may be made out to be....

[bison137]

The SAT is worthless compared to the ACT.


As I said, the number of football players in comparison to even a small student body is meaninglessly small.



You act as if it's poisoning the well to let 100 kids in who can play ball but aren't Victorian scholars.

That's as elitist as it gets.

Come on.


If having academic standards in a university is "elitist", then I plead guilty. Thankfully there are some colleges left that feel the same.

Following your model, I suggest that NDSU set up a minor league football team sponsored by the university and not even bother to call the 100 kids students. It would be much more honest.

[bison137]

The SAT is worthless compared to the ACT.




What does this mean exactly? Evidence?


There is a reason the NCAA uses the SAT and not the ACT.

[Dane96]

I'm thinking that the PL could offer a full ride to a kid with great grades. I know that Dayton landed a kid with a 4.0 GPA and good ACT scores.... He was also on the radar for the Ivy League. I'm betting, although I have no way to know, that Dayton was able to offer an attractive enough aid packagefor academics, combined with being close to his home town, that the kid chose UD over his Ivy offers.... I'm thinking the same thing could play out in PL schools for kids with great grades. They may get zero athletic aid, but a good aid package for academics. Where there might be a hole is the kids from middle class families, with say a 3.3 GPA and slightly above average SAT or ACT scores. This kid may not be able to get a decent aid package at a PL school, but if he is a great football player, many full scholarship schools could give him a full ride for athletics. Again, I do not see a kid like this being admitted to a PL school anyway, so the aid thing is a bit mute. Unless the PL is going to significantly lower their standards to admit "athletes", I still struggle to see how moving to traditional scholarships is going to help much.... If the PL wanted to be like the NEC, they would not be the PL.... Maybe a few top students will accept a free ride at Albany versus a ton of debt to go to Fordham, but if a kid is PL material to begin with, I have a feeling that more often than not, the PL gets him.... Of course I am not a PL coach losing recruits to the NEC, but I still suspect the "problem" is not a big as it may be made out to be....

Two things:

1. The PL rejected Albany and Stony Brook when we upgraded (and this is a fact...right from the horses mouth of the PL...I cannot reveal my source...but the person is a PL...and not school...rep) solely because of the aid issue (disparity in cost). I do know that we nabbed a couple of PL recruits who had great grades...simply because of the dollar issue. Heck, if we gave a kid 2-4k...the education cost for an out-of-stater is only going to be in the 12-14 range. That won't buy you a cup of coffee in the PL. Additionally, that 2-4k is given irrespective of the parent/student income.

2. Unless I am mistaken, I remember Gate...13 telling me that MERIT SCHOLARSHIPS are not allowed for athletes for the precise reason that it could be abused as a tool.

I may be wrong on two.

[LBPop]

I have weighed in on this topic a few times in the past. I have not had the time to read all the posts (too busy working to pay that PL tuition), but I believe I can address a few issues from very personal point of view:

The kids being lost by the PL and the lack of scholarships are probably not going to the NEC. As Tavani explained a few months ago, they are being lost to the Ivys. LBKid had the goods to get into any of the Ivy or PL schools as a football player. And due to the wisdom of the financial aid model, we received the same financial package from all of them...Zero. Despite some overtures from a couple of scholarship I-AA schools (please don't yell at me, that's what they were called four years ago), LBKid wanted the "name" school and we sucked it up to get him there. It has been a tremendous drain on our family, but I would do it again in a second as the results are already materializing. The problem is that if it's going to cost essentially the same amount to go to an Ivy school or to a PL school, most kids will choose Ivy.

The kids with the real problem come from families who do not qualify for need based aid, but who simply cannot afford to have their son go to a $45K+ school. That wonderful financial aid model assumes that a family should spend every last dime on their child's education. So a lot of families get no financial aid, yet a $45,000+ year nut is out of the question. That's the kid who the PL schools should be able to get and cannot.

It's a real dilemma that can be resolved without dropping academic standards. The PL schools are already able to admit football players who otherwise would not have gotten in, so why not find a way to help them with some dollars without asking their parents to spill their financial guts to strangers? The process is demeaning, full of loopholes, easily defrauded, and based on unrealistic expectations. And let me add in defense of the people forced to administer this process, they can only "play the cards they are dealt." I am not "shooting the messengers", but I am using a bunch of mixed and cliched metaphors...sorry. :o

Someday maybe I will have the time and guts to say what I really think. :D :( xbawlingx

[Dane96]

nm

[Dane96]

I agree, the IVY's stepping up has really hurt the PL...but I know that kids are coming to SBU, Albany, Monmouth, and CCSU over PL schools.

Coaches at those schools have stated as so...recruits have stated so.

The PL is at a crossroads more than any other league. It the NEC breaks off or a new NE conference is eventually formed, there will be a very big argument within the PL about what to do.

Remember...grad schools is on the horizon of many kids these days. A kid thinking about the PL is, more than likely, probably going to grad school at some point.

You make the point about the financial models killing parents such as yourself (and my own parents). The selling point, specifically for MAJOR research institutions such as SBU and Albany, is that you may not get the PL name on your resume, but you are going to pay a 1/4 (maybe an 1/8) of the cost to attend a quality state school. Additionally, and I am not sure about SBU, but Albany sends over 70% of its students off to grad school. Sure, it may be tougher to get in an elite school from Albany compared to the road from Colgate or Lehigh or Georgetown, but a kid who is considering the PL generally has his ducks in a row academically...and should excel at a state school...enough so to overcome any stigma for graduate admission.

Ask Pete Lembo.

[Dane96]

Excuse my ENGLISH...this damn board won't let me edit right now. That last post is a horror show...I destroyed our language.

[LBPop]

Excuse my ENGLISH...this damn board won't let me edit right now. That last post is a horror show...I destroyed our language.

But you made your point.xthumbsupx

[colorless raider]

Remember, that's not just 63 scholarships in the discussion, it's 126, thanks to Title IX.

DFW you keep trying to "kill" the concept. As has been pointed out by many on the board this is not a big deal. colgate 13 has it nailed. I can only surmise that you know that the Hoya leaders will say "no" and continue to focus on basketball and you football program will have no where to go. Sorry about that.

[RichH2]

While the squeeze is increasing every year for PL schools , lets not forget that we have always lost kids to the ivies and always will. likewise we have lost qualified kids to schollies. difference now is that there are more schollies out there and more local schools going after the same kids. AND Ivies after a slow 4-5 years are recruiting much more heavily it seems altho that may just be the result from the changing environment .
I'm gonna sound real old now, " a rising tide raises all the boats"
All conferences but especially the PL must adapt and be ready to position themselves to compete I hope that the PL don't study this so much that the tide passes us by

[ngineer]

I agree that we lose a lot to the Ivies, but we also lose a fair number to the state universities with scholarships. We came close to several recruits over the past two years who ended up going with lesser BCS schools (Lenahan to Toledo immediately comes to mind), and right now we're fighting to hold onto a highly regarded recruit being dangled a track scholarship by Arizona State. I know we lost a few to Rutgers and UConn over the past couple years. Granted not all were based solely on scholarships, but the easier money, and less or not debt upon graduation has to figure into the equation.

[MplsBison]

SCHOOLS ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF EDUCATING...first and foremost.

Hard to be in a business that generates no profit.


Schools rake in the big bucks on research grants, rights to businesses and patents spun off from research, and athletics.

Tuition is just a drop in the bucket.



the poster (I believe) is trying to say that college athletics should not be in the business of rewaring those who don't care to put in the MINIMAL effort.

That type of thinking is acceptable for DIII.


Won't and shouldn't cut it in the FCS.

[MplsBison]

If having academic standards in a university is "elitist", then I plead guilty. Thankfully there are some colleges left that feel the same.

Fine with me.

Get your butts in DIII, then.

[danefan]

Umm....find me an FCS team that consistently makes their school money? Maybe Delaware and Montana, but I'm not even sure about that.

[MplsBison]

I said athletics, not football.

[Franks Tanks]

Hard to be in a business that generates no profit.


Schools rake in the big bucks on research grants, rights to businesses and patents spun off from research, and athletics.

Tuition is just a drop in the bucket.




That type of thinking is acceptable for DIII.


Won't and shouldn't cut it in the FCS.


This really may be the most off base comment you have ever uttered. You think that FCS schools..FCS.. i cant believe this...should care more about fielding a football team than educating students. This isnt a minor league system,, it is educational institutions that sponsor a great sport for the enjoyment of the students, alumni , and fans. WOW, you must be eating that plastic turf.

[danefan]

I said athletics, not football.


Even better. Schools that actually make money on athletics are few and far between.

According to Andrew Zimbalist, a sports consultant and professor of economics at Smith College.
" The average NCAA Athletic Department, there are over 1,000 of them in the country, has a deficit of $3.6 million and that is without counting facility costs. Certainly as a general principal, big time athletics do not make money at the college level. There are some exceptions, there might be a half dozen or as many as ten schools in any particular year that will have a modest surplus in their athletic department. But all the rest of them, 990 plus have deficits."

[MplsBison]

You think that FCS schools..FCS.. i cant believe this...should care more about fielding a football team than educating students.

That might be a bit excessive.



They need to be seeking the best football players they can get and offering them scholarships.


Anything less is no for this subdivision.

[MplsBison]

According to Andrew Zimbalist, a sports consultant and professor of economics at Smith College.
" The average NCAA Athletic Department, there are over 1,000 of them in the country, has a deficit of $3.6 million and that is without counting facility costs. Certainly as a general principal, big time athletics do not make money at the college level. There are some exceptions, there might be a half dozen or as many as ten schools in any particular year that will have a modest surplus in their athletic department. But all the rest of them, 990 plus have deficits."

After considering My Zimbalist's research, I will say that I was wrong.

College athletic departments don't make money.




Nonetheless, that can't be used as an excuse to bring the whole subdivision down.

Otherwise, we might as well make the entire NCAA DIII.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW you keep trying to "kill" the concept. As has been pointed out by many on the board this is not a big deal. colgate 13 has it nailed. I can only surmise that you know that the Hoya leaders will say "no" and continue to focus on basketball and you football program will have no where to go. Sorry about that.

Not trying to derail the issue--I was extending the discussion to include the other side of the equation. Obviously, if the gap is small in converting Colgate from need to merit-based aid, the equivalent change in women's support would be comparable. If you're Marist, on the other hand, it's a bigger hurdle to overcome.

[MplsBison]

If you don't have that much money to spend, that's fine.


But if you don't, then why are you in this subdivision?

[colgate13]

Detriot Flyer -

Something you're assuming is that all PL schools have academic merit to give out. We don't. Various members can chime in, but from my knowledge I know Lafayette has a healthy academic merit program and Colgate has none. Zero. So if Joe Football is also Joe Brilliant and Joe Rich, he's not getting a dime from Colgate now.

colorless raider -

DFW can speak for himself obviously, but Colgate and G'Town are in two very different situations football money wise. Colgate's jump to scholarships is more like a little hop while Georgetown's might be more like Neal Armstrong on the moon.

And, as for who we lose student-athletes too, we lose them on both sides. We lose some to Ivy and some to the CAA/NEC/low level BCS schools. We ARE competing against the William and Mary's, Richmonds, Albany's and UConns of the world. We occupy a unique niche that is ridiculously tough to exploit when we play by different rules than the rest of Division I sans Ivy. IMEO, a move to scholarships will see PL schools pull about 1/3-1/2 of the same players they already do because they already qualified for aid and are very good players. The majority of the remaining 1/2-2/3 will be pulled from Ivy/CAA kids that now get a free ride and can get the perceived academic reputation too.

As for the numbers of kids getting full need rides or very close to it, I don't have any hard figures but it is significant. I'd say it's at least 1/4 of the roster and that's conservative.

[colgate13]

If you don't have that much money to spend, that's fine.


But if you don't, then why are you in this subdivision?

You mean the subdivision of Division I that was created for Division I schools to save money on football?

Really, I think you've got FCS and BCS confused. xconfusedx

[bison137]

Detriot Flyer -

Something you're assuming is that all PL schools have academic merit to give out. We don't. Various members can chime in, but from my knowledge I know Lafayette has a healthy academic merit program and Colgate has none. Zero. So if Joe Football is also Joe Brilliant and Joe Rich, he's not getting a dime from Colgate now.

colorless raider -

DFW can speak for himself obviously, but Colgate and G'Town are in two very different situations football money wise. Colgate's jump to scholarships is more like a little hop while Georgetown's might be more like Neal Armstrong on the moon.

And, as for who we lose student-athletes too, we lose them on both sides. We lose some to Ivy and some to the CAA/NEC/low level BCS schools. We ARE competing against the William and Mary's, Richmonds, Albany's and UConns of the world. We occupy a unique niche that is ridiculously tough to exploit when we play by different rules than the rest of Division I sans Ivy. IMEO, a move to scholarships will see PL schools pull about 1/3-1/2 of the same players they already do because they already qualified for aid and are very good players. The majority of the remaining 1/2-2/3 will be pulled from Ivy/CAA kids that now get a free ride and can get the perceived academic reputation too.

As for the numbers of kids getting full need rides or very close to it, I don't have any hard figures but it is significant. I'd say it's at least 1/4 of the roster and that's conservative.


Great post, 13.

Following up on the first paragraph, Bucknell has a very tiny program of academic merit aid - not even close to Lafayette's.

[bison137]

You mean the subdivision of Division I that was created for Division I schools to save money on football?

Really, I think you've got FCS and BCS confused. xconfusedx


Absolutely right. Some people do seem to get confused.

[MplsBison]

You mean the subdivision of Division I that was created for Division I schools to save money on football?



FCS should rid itself of that appearance by mandating scholarship minimums.

[UAalum72]

FCS should rid itself of that appearance by mandating scholarship minimums.
That's not an 'appearance', it's FCS's PURPOSE FOR BEING

[colgate13]

Seriously! If anything, it sounds like you should be advocating the school that you support to join the BCS!

The FCS was created to allow schools to be Division I in all sports but not participate in the outrageous arms race of big time football.

What again does scholarship minimums accomplish? Will outsiders really think more highly of the FCS?

[Go...gate]

FCS should rid itself of that appearance by mandating scholarship minimums.

Why?

[Franks Tanks]

Seriously! If anything, it sounds like you should be advocating the school that you support to join the BCS!

The FCS was created to allow schools to be Division I in all sports but not participate in the outrageous arms race of big time football.

What again does scholarship minimums accomplish? Will outsiders really think more highly of the FCS?

Absolutely correct, what is so funny about this whole arguement that NDSU is only a few years removed from D-II. Now they have a very good team but MPLS Bison apparently has FCS football confused with the Big Ten

[Andy]

Great post, 13.

Following up on the first paragraph, Bucknell has a very tiny program of academic merit aid - not even close to Lafayette's.

Lafayette's '07 football roster will include one player who's receiving academic merit aid--a jr who will be competing for the starting TE position. .

[bison137]

Lafayette's '07 football roster will include one player who's receiving academic merit aid--a jr who will be competing for the starting TE position. .


I didn't mean to imply that any significant piece of LC's academic scholarships were going to football players, just that LC gives out a large amount of merit aid for academics to the general school population - 15% of students according to the LC website. Bucknell is probably closer to 1.5% and CU is zero. Personally I wish Bucknell gave out a lot more.

[Go...gate]

I'm thinking that the PL could offer a full ride to a kid with great grades. I know that Dayton landed a kid with a 4.0 GPA and good ACT scores.... He was also on the radar for the Ivy League. I'm betting, although I have no way to know, that Dayton was able to offer an attractive enough aid packagefor academics, combined with being close to his home town, that the kid chose UD over his Ivy offers.... I'm thinking the same thing could play out in PL schools for kids with great grades. They may get zero athletic aid, but a good aid package for academics. Where there might be a hole is the kids from middle class families, with say a 3.3 GPA and slightly above average SAT or ACT scores. This kid may not be able to get a decent aid package at a PL school, but if he is a great football player, many full scholarship schools could give him a full ride for athletics. Again, I do not see a kid like this being admitted to a PL school anyway, so the aid thing is a bit mute. Unless the PL is going to significantly lower their standards to admit "athletes", I still struggle to see how moving to traditional scholarships is going to help much.... If the PL wanted to be like the NEC, they would not be the PL.... Maybe a few top students will accept a free ride at Albany versus a ton of debt to go to Fordham, but if a kid is PL material to begin with, I have a feeling that more often than not, the PL gets him.... Of course I am not a PL coach losing recruits to the NEC, but I still suspect the "problem" is not a big as it may be made out to be....

Sometimes I think the solution to all this is to invite Dayton to join our conference (I have heard really good things about the school for many, many years), as it is clear that, in giving aid to an aspiring student-athlete, you guys really look for youngsters that can do the schoolwork as well as play the games. Problem, of course, is geography and the traditional big-time status of your basketball program, which would candidly lose some national standing and athletics revenue if it joined the PL.

No question that the PL must move on the issues of FB scholarships and expansion, but carefully.

[MplsBison]

That's not an 'appearance', it's FCS's PURPOSE FOR BEING

It shouldn't be.

[MplsBison]

Will outsiders really think more highly of the FCS?

Red Herring.


It has nothing to do with outsider's opinions.

[colgate13]

Wait... so it is only your opinion that matters in this whole deal? xlolx

Please, pray tell, what should the FCS's purpose of being be? It was very clearly created to be 'cost-containment' football. Anyone else lingering in FCS football has got the wrong idea about it and should move on to the BCS or look to create another alternative - but be fully aware that you really can't make the Ivy League do anything they don't want to do.

[MplsBison]

Oh yes we can.

Institute a scholarship minimum and they have no choice to move down if they choose to maintain their DIII model. Or they can give scholarships and stay.

[DFW HOYA]

Institute a scholarship minimum and they have no choice to move down if they choose to maintain their DIII model. Or they can give scholarships and stay.

So Fordham spends almost $4 million a season, more than some Sun Belt teams, and you'd consign them to Division III? xeyebrowx

[MplsBison]

No, DIII won't work because of the Dayton rule.

I was thinking they could play in DII.


Also, Fordham does not spend 4 million any more than the NDSU chess team spends 2 million from the members receiving financial aid from the school.

[DFW HOYA]

Also, Fordham does not spend 4 million any more than the NDSU chess team spends 2 million from the members receiving financial aid from the school.

Fordham spends more on I-AA/FCS football (over $3.8 million in FY 06) than any other school except James Madison and Delaware. Are their expenses not real either?

I realize you make a lot of controversial points, but to suggest that merit-based aid (aka scholarship money) is "real" but need-based aid is just an accounting entry reads as very misinformed.

[MplsBison]

Need based aid is not different than what they would've qualified for anyway.

It takes no effort on behalf of the athletic department or the football team to see that the player gets that aid.

Just fill out the FAFSA online and there's your scholarship* (*if you qualify for anything).

[colgate13]

Holy cow do you need an education about need-based aid for football players in the PL! First, the money is specifically earmarked for football players. It's not going to anyone else but them.

Then, it is a REAL expense. It has to be budgeted for and paid for through endowment spending and the tuition costs of other students.

Also, you're not just filling out a FAFSA. In reality, you're filling out the PROFILE, sending tax returns in, and then going back and forth with families as they compare offers from other PL and Ivy schools.

There is zero difference between NDSU's scholarship costs for football and Fordham's need-based aid cost for football other than the criteria under which they can award the money. NDSU's can go to anyone, Fordham's can only go to people in amounts they 'qualify' for. If that somehow makes Fordham less of an FCS program - and there is no way of changing your mind about this - then I have to say there is little hope for you in understanding this concept... and I'd have to recommend that us PL folks don't bother banging our heads against a wall about this.

[danefan]

Need based aid is not different than what they would've qualified for anyway.

It takes no effort on behalf of the athletic department or the football team to see that the player gets that aid.

Just fill out the FAFSA online and there's your scholarship* (*if you qualify for anything).


That is absolutely incorrect. All the FAFSA does is tell you have much your family is supposed to be able to contribute (although its not accurate). From there, the financial aid department at the school decides how you should get that aid, whether its by grants, scholarships, or what's most likely LOANS! Just because you qualify for a certain amount of aid doesn't mean you are getting that aid for free...you may have to take out a loan.

What the football and athletic department can do is "persuade" the financial aid department to lean on the side of grants and other "free" money instead of loans. Its my understanding that at PL schools there is certain grant money set aside for football players. The same used to be true in the NEC, but now instead of worrying about the FAFSA, the NEC teams can just give it to whomever they want, regardless of how much money mommy and daddy make.

[DetroitFlyer]

Isn't FAFSA simply a form for determing potential government aid for college? A PRIVATE university might use FAFSA as a "guideline", but I would think that they would be free to offer any level of aid, from zero to a full ride based on university policy..... This seems to be the grey area in the "needs based and/or academic aid" arena. Even in the PL, the AI determines who gets in, but I have to believe that aid is determined by the individual university. In the "scholarship model" it seems very straight forward, school A offers 63 scholarships, school B offers 30 scholarships. Pretty clean and easy to understand. When you look at the PL or the PFL or the Ivy League, it is much more difficult to easily determine tha amount of aid offered at each school. The PL is a bit more transparent as the aid is effectively counted as "scholarships" so the reporting might be a bit easier to understand, ( Fordham spending $3.8 million for example ). In the PFL, or Ivy League, since the aid is not athletic, I do not think it shows up in any of the reports, so determining how much aid Butler is offering to students that happen to play football versus how much aid Montana is offering to football players is not easy. In talking with the parents of kids that play in the PFL, it does seem as though the aid levels are lower, but determining just how much lower is almost impossible. In the case of the Ivy League, what would stop an Ivy school from offering free rides to 100 players? I doubt that if happens that way, but how would anyone ever know?

[carney2]

We have gone round and round on this many times and we always come back to the same place:

1. The PL does not award athletic scholarships for football and there is no indication that the people who count (the presidents and key administrators) are moving in that direction. Colgate13 predicted a year ago that it would happen in 2010. Maybe. The people who say "they offer scholarships in other sports, so why not football?" also cannot answer the question "The Ivies participate in all other NCAA championships, but not footnall. Why?" Some questions just cannot be answered. Leave it at that.

2. Some people on this thread seem to think that football scholarships will solve whatever "problems" PL football may be experiencing. They overlook the fact that none of the schools will simultaneously be reducing their academic standards, nor will the AI be disappearing. In fact, the pool of football types would only be increased in two regards:

Kids who just have to have a football scholarship - an ego thing.

and

Families who would not otherwise qualify for financial aid, or who would only qualify for partial aid (or the wrong kind such as loans instead of grants) might now qualify for a total free ride or at least a larger share.

It has been estimated that the approval of football scholarships would increase the pool of eligible football types by only about 33%. This hardly places PL schools on a level playing field with the large public institutions that control FCS football.

[MplsBison]

you're filling out the PROFILE, sending tax returns in, and then going back and forth with families as they compare offers from other PL and Ivy schools.


This, more than anything else, is what I want to see banned from FCS.



Get out there and recruit a kid based on his football ability and give him a damn scholarship.


Stop with this pithy "oh maybe we'll give you some dollars if your parents are poor" crap.

[MplsBison]

but now instead of worrying about the FAFSA, the NEC teams can just give it to whomever they want, regardless of how much money mommy and daddy make.

AS IT SHOULD BE!


This has to be mandated for FCS!

Scholarship minimums!

[Franks Tanks]

This, more than anything else, is what I want to see banned from FCS.



Get out there and recruit a kid based on his football ability and give him a damn scholarship.


Stop with this pithy "oh maybe we'll give you some dollars if your parents are poor" crap.


What do you think the Patriot league does??? We recruit a kid based on football ability and provide him with financial aid to attend the school that he wouldnt have recieved otherwise. ie if he was a non-recruited athlete. Oh and we do that to the tune of 56 schoralships equililiancies. Seriously what is so hard to understand.

[Maverick]

BSBison,
You might want to ask how the NCAA views what is done with the aid received by FB players in the PL. Those receiving athletically-related aid are part of the NCAA APR and GSR reports on each team. Now from what I know the Ivy League members are not in this report, but PL members are. Wonder why that is? Also you might want to ask those who have coaches who were in the Ivy League about those non-scholarships? In fact Brown University was in trouble with the Ivy League for overawarding aid to some athletes. So keep up your semantic war but don't expect any BSBison-centric changes anytime soon from the membership of the NCAA.

[Col Hogan]

Wait... so it is only your opinion that matters in this whole deal? xlolx.

13, welcome to the world of the FCS Commissioner and Grand Pooh Baa...the omnipotent savior of all the is FCS...


Please, pray tell, what should the FCS's purpose of being be? It was very clearly created to be 'cost-containment' football. Anyone else lingering in FCS football has got the wrong idea about it and should move on to the BCS or look to create another alternative - but be fully aware that you really can't make the Ivy League do anything they don't want to do.


Oh yes we can.

Institute a scholarship minimum and they have no choice to move down if they choose to maintain their DIII model. Or they can give scholarships and stay.

But Oh, great and powerful OZ, that does not fit into each and every team's plan for their future


This, more than anything else, is what I want to see banned from FCS.



Get out there and recruit a kid based on his football ability and give him a damn scholarship.


Stop with this pithy "oh maybe we'll give you some dollars if your parents are poor" crap.

What other "Grand" ideas do you have for FCS???


It should be for smaller state flagships and secondary state schools in larger states.



FBS is for state flagships in larger states, IMO.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25002&page=11 (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25002&page=11)

So what you are saying is kick out a bunch of teams that don't meet you specific idea of an FCS team...if they don't give scholarships, or are a flagship university???




AS IT SHOULD BE!


This has to be mandated for FCS!

[colorless raider]

This upper midwestener will NEVER get it. Start a new thread.

[Go...gate]

This, more than anything else, is what I want to see banned from FCS.



Get out there and recruit a kid based on his football ability and give him a damn scholarship.


Stop with this pithy "oh maybe we'll give you some dollars if your parents are poor" crap.

Even if he is a marginal student? No way!

[Franks Tanks]

This upper midwestener will NEVER get it. Start a new thread.

I agree Ive wasted way to much time on this already

[bison137]

This upper midwestener will NEVER get it. Start a new thread.

True - he is clearly clueless. To him, college is nothing but football. His ideal would be a university that has no classes, no professors, and a championship football team made up of functional illiterates.

[MplsBison]

What do you think the Patriot league does??? We recruit a kid based on football ability and provide him with financial aid to attend the school that he wouldnt have recieved otherwise.

If he can get admitted to the school in the first place. And only then if he can qualify for that aid.



No Patriot League school will ever be better academically than Stanford.

And Stanford gives out 85 scholarships in football.


That proves that your model is false.

End it now or get out.

[MplsBison]

His ideal would be a university that has no classes, no professors, and a championship football team made up of functional illiterates.

Your ideal college football would be 100% no scholarships, only need based aid, a kid must have at least a 3.5 gpa and be taking at least 3 AP classes his senior year to play football, and tuition would be 40 thousand a year, guaranteeing that only the wealthy could afford to play.


Sounds borderline racist.

[DFW HOYA]

This, more than anything else, is what I want to see banned from FCS. Get out there and recruit a kid based on his football ability and give him a damn scholarship.

And yet Stanford has its own self-imposed academic index which generally restricts scholarship prospects by GPA and SAT score, and as a result its football SAT numbers are 150-200 points higher than any other I-A school.

If you don't have the grades, don't expect a Stanford scholarship. (Which, in a roundabout way, is what the upper half of the PL wants to do.)

[Maverick]

BSBison,
WTF? So if you don't give scholarships for football a team and an institution are borderline racist? I would say that you have lost it but I don't think you ever had it to begin with. You have been consumed by a self-delusion that is making you sound dumber and dumber with every post. Maybe you should be eating that red herring since fish is brain food and you need quite a bit based on some of your delusional rantings!!xeekx xeekx xeekx xeekx xeekx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

[LeopardFan04]

Your ideal college football would be 100% no scholarships, only need based aid, a kid must have at least a 3.5 gpa and be taking at least 3 AP classes his senior year to play football, and tuition would be 40 thousand a year, guaranteeing that only the wealthy could afford to play.


Sounds borderline racist.



If need based aid exists, then why would only the wealthy be able to afford to play? Every student's need is met.

[MplsBison]

Oh right, I'm sure you're giving out lots of 50 thousand grants!

[LeopardFan04]

Oh right, I'm sure you're giving out lots of 50 thousand grants!

Never said we were. But you stated that only the wealthy would be able to play. As someone stated earlier in the thread the need is met for students that need it.

[Go...gate]

And yet Stanford has its own self-imposed academic index which generally restricts scholarship prospects by GPA and SAT score, and as a result its football SAT numbers are 150-200 points higher than any other I-A school.

If you don't have the grades, don't expect a Stanford scholarship. (Which, in a roundabout way, is what the upper half of the PL wants to do.)

Glad somebody said this. Moreover, I'm not certain Stanford is alone in this regard. I believe Rice, Johns Hopkins, RPI and others also observe this approach in Football, Lacrosse and Ice Hockey, respectively.

[MplsBison]

Never said we were. But you stated that only the wealthy would be able to play. As someone stated earlier in the thread the need is met for students that need it.


And I'm sure that your coaches aren't told to only go after potential players that can afford the school on their own so the school doesn't have to pay as much for them.

[Franks Tanks]

If he can get admitted to the school in the first place. And only then if he can qualify for that aid.



No Patriot League school will ever be better academically than Stanford.

And Stanford gives out 85 scholarships in football.


That proves that your model is false.

End it now or get out.

How does what Stanford does compare to our model. They are in the Pac-10 and are one of the elite institutions in the USA. They choose to give scholarships, thats great but you still have to qualify to go to the school. Guess what at Furman, Wofford, Willima & Mary, Richmond, Villinova and other highly selective scholarship schools you still need to qualify academically to go their. So basically if you doubled your Sat score to make it a 900 you still wouldnt get in even if you were a great football player. Secondly cost is not an obstacle for Patriot league schools. It has been discussed ad nausuem that Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell fund football at pretty much the 63 scholarship equiviliancy level, so they basically make the commitment already. Lafayette just spent 30 million on their stadium, does that really sound like a school that cant or wont spend money on football? Some of the alums of Patriot league schools could buy freakin North Dakota if they saw fit, its never been a money issue. It is just a philospohy that has run its cousre anyhow.

[Franks Tanks]

And I'm sure that your coaches aren't told to only go after potential players that can afford the school on their own so the school doesn't have to pay as much for them.

Also if anything our coaches tend to recruit kids with more need as they would hence get a full ride, therefore eliminating cost as a reson to not attend. Quick story guess how much I paid on a yearly basis to go to Lafayette.....0...thats right nothing. I came from a single parent home and it worked out that i didnt pay anything. Also if I went to lafayette and didnt play football I may have had half of my tuition covered if I was lucky. But I played ball and it was totally covered, that sounds like aid to play football doesnt it? What the hell else it is--myslef any many others on my team played nothing or very little to go to Lafayette as we played football. Some peopel quit and they had to pay much more, why? Because it is aid earmarked directly for athletes. And no matter what you say you are wrong cause thats a scholarship any way you slice or try to spin it

[ngineer]

We have gone round and round on this many times and we always come back to the same place:

1. The PL does not award athletic scholarships for football and there is no indication that the people who count (the presidents and key administrators) are moving in that direction. Colgate13 predicted a year ago that it would happen in 2010. Maybe. The people who say "they offer scholarships in other sports, so why not football?" also cannot answer the question "The Ivies participate in all other NCAA championships, but not footnall. Why?" Some questions just cannot be answered. Leave it at that.

2. Some people on this thread seem to think that football scholarships will solve whatever "problems" PL football may be experiencing. They overlook the fact that none of the schools will simultaneously be reducing their academic standards, nor will the AI be disappearing. In fact, the pool of football types would only be increased in two regards:

Kids who just have to have a football scholarship - an ego thing.

and

Families who would not otherwise qualify for financial aid, or who would only qualify for partial aid (or the wrong kind such as loans instead of grants) might now qualify for a total free ride or at least a larger share.

It has been estimated that the approval of football scholarships would increase the pool of eligible football types by only about 33%. This hardly places PL schools on a level playing field with the large public institutions that control FCS football.

While it may not completely level the field, increasing a pool by 33% is a significant increase, imo.

[ngineer]

How does what Stanford does compare to our model. They are in the Pac-10 and are one of the elite institutions in the USA. They choose to give scholarships, thats great but you still have to qualify to go to the school. Guess what at Furman, Wofford, Willima & Mary, Richmond, Villinova and other highly selective scholarship schools you still need to qualify academically to go their. So basically if you doubled your Sat score to make it a 900 you still wouldnt get in even if you were a great football player. Secondly cost is not an obstacle for Patriot league schools. It has been discussed ad nausuem that Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell fund football at pretty much the 63 scholarship equiviliancy level, so they basically make the commitment already. Lafayette just spent 30 million on their stadium, does that really sound like a school that cant or wont spend money on football? Some of the alums of Patriot league schools could buy freakin North Dakota if they saw fit, its never been a money issue. It is just a philospohy that has run its cousre anyhow.

as far as I know, none of the PL teams come close to funding 63 'equivalencies'...Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette have been reported as funding in the 'low 50's (53-55). Bucknell, Fordham are less, though Fordham may have recently increased their effort there. .

[ngineer]

Glad somebody said this. Moreover, I'm not certain Stanford is alone in this regard. I believe Rice, Johns Hopkins, RPI and others also observe this approach in Football, Lacrosse and Ice Hockey, respectively.

I have said for years that we could go to scholarship and not impact academics at all. In fact, Lehigh's wrestling team's academic profile has improved significantly since the onset of scholarships.

[MplsBison]

no matter what you say you are wrong cause thats a scholarship any way you slice or try to spin it

Nope.

It'll never be as good as a scholarship for the sole reason of need blind vs. need based.

Never.

[colgate13]

Isn't FAFSA simply a form for determing potential government aid for college? A PRIVATE university might use FAFSA as a "guideline", but I would think that they would be free to offer any level of aid, from zero to a full ride based on university policy..... This seems to be the grey area in the "needs based and/or academic aid" arena. Even in the PL, the AI determines who gets in, but I have to believe that aid is determined by the individual university. In the "scholarship model" it seems very straight forward, school A offers 63 scholarships, school B offers 30 scholarships. Pretty clean and easy to understand. When you look at the PL or the PFL or the Ivy League, it is much more difficult to easily determine tha amount of aid offered at each school. The PL is a bit more transparent as the aid is effectively counted as "scholarships" so the reporting might be a bit easier to understand, ( Fordham spending $3.8 million for example ). In the PFL, or Ivy League, since the aid is not athletic, I do not think it shows up in any of the reports, so determining how much aid Butler is offering to students that happen to play football versus how much aid Montana is offering to football players is not easy. In talking with the parents of kids that play in the PFL, it does seem as though the aid levels are lower, but determining just how much lower is almost impossible. In the case of the Ivy League, what would stop an Ivy school from offering free rides to 100 players? I doubt that if happens that way, but how would anyone ever know?

While aid is determined by the individual school in the PL, it is determined by the aid offices and not the athletic department. Offices are mandated by the league to determine need in a similar fashion as the rest of the student body. You are not supposed to give any sort of 'preferential' need to athletes. That said, of course schools are aggressive and tend to give athletes every benefit of the doubt... but they do that for plenty of non-athletes too. Aid in general is a competitive business.

And as for how would anyone know? We're all in some fashion or another recruiting a lot of the same players. We all share our aid policies each year and we all use the PROFILE formula. There is a strong chance you will smell something fishy if there is something fishy going on elsewhere.

If Colgate gave someone $40K and Lafayette gave them $20K, when the parents get Colgate's estimate they will be on the phone with Lafayette saying, WTF? The Lafayette coaches will go to their aid office and say, WTF? And then more than likely the aid officers will look at the information again, and if something looked fishy, pick up the phone and call the other school. Not to price fix mind you, but to make sure the school is evaluating people fairly.

It is a key point to realize that aid officers are the ones making the decisions. They are not paid by nor report to the athletic departments - and the financial aid world is not a big one. Everyone that's been around for a while knows everyone else. There is a high level of professionalism for most of them.

[colgate13]

This, more than anything else, is what I want to see banned from FCS.



Get out there and recruit a kid based on his football ability and give him a damn scholarship.


Stop with this pithy "oh maybe we'll give you some dollars if your parents are poor" crap.

If a school can field a competitive team with this method, it should be absolutely meaningless to you how they decide to give out their money.

And for the record, there are plenty of schools that do exactly what you are prescribing and have horrible football teams.

[MplsBison]

If a school can field a competitive team with this method, it should be absolutely meaningless to you how they decide to give out their money..

Other than Colgate in 03, it's not possible. And even then, 40-0 loss in the championship game. Ouch.

The last 3 years the PL hasn't won a playoff game.

They won't again in 07.

[colgate13]

No Patriot League school will ever be better academically than Stanford.

And Stanford gives out 85 scholarships in football.


That proves that your model is false.

End it now or get out.

And Princeton, Harvard and Yale give out 0 scholarships in football, and are rated better academically than Stanford.

What does that say about the non-scholarship model now? xwhistlex

Harvard has more money than God. If they decided they want to be a better football program than Stanford, they could in a heartbeat. The choice to not give money based on athletics is a philosophical one. There is more than one model to athletics, and for pretty much everyone else out there they can peacefully coexist.

[colgate13]

Oh right, I'm sure you're giving out lots of 50 thousand grants!

There are a significant number of 'full ride' need based grants every year.

[colgate13]

Nope.

It'll never be as good as a scholarship for the sole reason of need blind vs. need based.

Never.

oooo boy...

did you just confuse two very different terms. Need blind is an admission term. Need based in an aid term. Do you even know what you are talking about here? xeyebrowx

[colgate13]

Other than Colgate in 03, it's not possible. And even then, 40-0 loss in the championship game. Ouch.

The last 3 years the PL hasn't won a playoff game.

They won't again in 07.
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

It has been possible plenty of times. The PL playoff record is 9-18 thank you. Not stellar, but competitive.

2003? Yea, Colgate made the mistake of beating 3 full scholarship schools before losing to a Delaware squad in the championship that beat its first scholarship opponent by 41 points, its second by 30 and its third by 13. In fact, no team put up more than 9 points in all of the playoffs. Yea, that's a reasonable point you made. xrolleyesx

And I love your Nostrodamus impersonation. Making predicitions with such certainty. It is so easy to do when the PL had a down year last year too...

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but did a PL team play App. State very competitively the first time they won it all?

You live in such an absolutist world of purity it is scary. Have fun with that. xpeacex

[ngineer]

Your ideal college football would be 100% no scholarships, only need based aid, a kid must have at least a 3.5 gpa and be taking at least 3 AP classes his senior year to play football, and tuition would be 40 thousand a year, guaranteeing that only the wealthy could afford to play.

Sounds borderline racist.

That makes a lot of sense...xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

Need blind is an admission term.

Scholarships are need blind.

They go to the best football players regardless of their need for aid to pay for school, as all aid given to football players in FCS should be.

[MplsBison]

The PL playoff record is 9-18 thank you.

You only have 7 wins.

Colgate won 3 in 03, Fordham won 1 in 02, and Lehigh won 1 in 3 different years.

[MplsBison]

And Princeton, Harvard and Yale give out 0 scholarships in football, and are rated better academically than Stanford.


Just because their endowment has more money in it doesn't mean they're a better school academically.



I'll take a Stanford grad over a HYP grade any day.

[colgate13]

Lehigh has 4 playoff wins thank you.

1979 Murray State 29-9
1998 Richmond 24-23
2000 Western Illinois 37-7
2001 Hofstra 27-24

Oh, and they lost to eventual National Champion JMU 14-13 in 2004. Jeez, isn't it terrible...

And Colgate has 4 playoff wins as well. Your limited field of vision overlooks our 1982 win over BU 21-7.

Now, compare that against some other scholarship leagues please and then maybe we can have a real discussion.

And FWIW Princeton is the best school on the planet.

[MplsBison]

I'll be damned. And Colgate won a game in 1982 as well, so you're right it's 9.

However, since the modern era of 16 teams in the playoffs (1986 on), it's 7.


For some reason there are no PL teams from 1986 to 1996, but there are before and after.

[MplsBison]

Now, compare that against some other scholarship leagues please and then maybe we can have a real discussion.



The last three years clearly show the trend that will continue: 15 playoff wins for the scholarship teams, 0 playoff wins for the non scholarship teams.

[Franks Tanks]

The last three years clearly show the trend that will continue: 15 playoff wins for the scholarship teams, 0 playoff wins for the non scholarship teams.

Yes but their is one viable non-scholarship league that competes in the playoffs, the Patriot. And what like 9 scholarship leagues, so I guess you were absent in stats class that day but the likehood of scholarship schools having most of the wins is high due to sheer numbers.

[colorless raider]

That's like Playoffs???Playoffs?? by Jim Mora. This guy wasn't in any stat class....He wasn't in ANY class!!
EVER!!

[colorless raider]

I'll be damned. And Colgate won a game in 1982 as well, so you're right it's 9.

However, since the modern era of 16 teams in the playoffs (1986 on), it's 7.


For some reason there are no PL teams from 1986 to 1996, but there are before and after.

are you ever right?

[MplsBison]

Yes but their is one viable non-scholarship league that competes in the playoffs, the Patriot. And what like 9 scholarship leagues, so I guess you were absent in stats class that day but the likehood of scholarship schools having most of the wins is high due to sheer numbers.

All the more reason to eliminate the anomaly.

[Franks Tanks]

All the more reason to eliminate the anomaly.

Lets eliminate the SWAC they dont play in the playoffs. While your at it get rid of Wofford, VMI, Richmond,William &Mary and the Citadel. None of these schools won a National Championship and they care about admitting quality students. You change your argument so much I cant keep track. , but the only thing that seems consistent is that you seem to want FCS to be comprised of mediocre regaional state universities.

Also I know exactly what your reply will be....that the other schools mentioned above give scholarships. So what as many are just as competitive as PL schools. VMI has given scholarships for years and they are terrible, Citadel is in a rough patch, Lafayette beat Richmond when we played twice a few years back. Its about being able to compete period! and not how you get to that point.

[CrusaderBob]

I'll be damned. And Colgate won a game in 1982 as well, so you're right it's 9.

However, since the modern era of 16 teams in the playoffs (1986 on), it's 7.


For some reason there are no PL teams from 1986 to 1996, but there are before and after.


I know I'm crazy to jump in here, but ....

Prior to 1986, the Patriot League did not exist so the teams currently in the PL could participate if they desired.

The PL was formed in 1986, and by rule from 1986 - 1995, the Patriot League did not allow their teams to participate in the playoffs.

So the real comparison would be to look at the last 11 seasons and determine how many scholarship leagues have 7 wins or 5 seasons with at least one win?

[MplsBison]

No the real comparison is to compare all scholarship teams against all non scholarship teams.


And it's really no comparison at all.


Other than Colgate in 03, not much to write about for the NS group.

[MplsBison]

Lets eliminate the SWAC they dont play in the playoffs. While your at it get rid of Wofford, VMI, Richmond,William &Mary and the Citadel. None of these schools won a National Championship and they care about admitting quality students. You change your argument so much I cant keep track. , but the only thing that seems consistent is that you seem to want FCS to be comprised of mediocre regaional state universities.

Also I know exactly what your reply will be....that the other schools mentioned above give scholarships. So what as many are just as competitive as PL schools. VMI has given scholarships for years and they are terrible, Citadel is in a rough patch, Lafayette beat Richmond when we played twice a few years back. Its about being able to compete period! and not how you get to that point.

It's very simple. Scholarship teams have dominated the playoffs.

The NS group is so small to begin with, I just don't see the need of allowing them to stay in the division.

[Dane96]

Thankfully, your advice has not been asked for.

[GOTOREROS]

The lucky ones will get USD. xsmiley_wix

Another USD topic? xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Go...gate]

Scholarships are need blind.

They go to the best football players regardless of their need for aid to pay for school, as all aid given to football players in FCS should be.

I really think this is naive statement which you need to reconsider against what goes on in the real world. Just my xtwocentsx

[Go...gate]

Lehigh has 4 playoff wins thank you.

1979 Murray State 29-9
1998 Richmond 24-23
2000 Western Illinois 37-7
2001 Hofstra 27-24

Oh, and they lost to eventual National Champion JMU 14-13 in 2004. Jeez, isn't it terrible...

And Colgate has 4 playoff wins as well. Your limited field of vision overlooks our 1982 win over BU 21-7.

Now, compare that against some other scholarship leagues please and then maybe we can have a real discussion.

And FWIW Princeton is the best school on the planet.

13, just to add, Lehigh also has several D-II wins and an NC, back when many D-II teams competed which are now FCS, such as UMass, Bucknell, Northeastern, Delaware and others.

[MplsBison]

I really think this is naive statement which you need to reconsider against what goes on in the real world.

If it were a factually wrong statement, I would.


But the fact is, coaches at programs that give scholarships do not look at a player's financial need when deciding if they will offer that player.

[Go...gate]

If it were a factually wrong statement, I would.


But the fact is, coaches at programs that give scholarships do not look at a player's financial need when deciding if they will offer that player.


Oh, come on!! This has always been a consideration. The autobiographies of Woody Hayes, Al McGuire, Bo Schembechler, Bear Bryant, Darrell Royal, Barry Switzer, John Wooden, Gerry Faust, Lou Holtz, Joe Paterno, Carmen Cozza, Pat Summitt, Digger Phelps and others all state to the contrary - and most of these coaches have also been AD's.

[MplsBison]

They do not. You've misread or misinterpreted.

[Go...gate]

They do not. You've misread or misinterpreted.


Wrong. As Sam Ervin said to John Erlichman, "I understand English. It is my mother tongue".

[MplsBison]

Then quote some of the book and I'll show you where you've misread.

[Go...gate]

Then quote some of the book and I'll show you where you've misread.

Sorry. I've led you to the water, go do the drinking (please check out their books for yourself.)

[colgate13]

No the real comparison is to compare all scholarship teams against all non scholarship teams.


And it's really no comparison at all.


Other than Colgate in 03, not much to write about for the NS group.

I'm glad that you've found your short, provacative statements a comfortable way to express yourself. The problem is, they don't jive with reality. Take Lehigh for example.

In the past 9 seasons they have been in the playoffs 5 times. Those five times, they won a majority of their first round games (3). One loss was a one point loss to the eventual NC. The other loss was 27-15 to Hofstra in 1999.

So you look at that hard data, and say "not much to write about for the NS group" and think you're brilliant.

The reality is that Lehigh proved itself to be one of the top 8 teams in the nation 3 out of the past 9 years. They also proved that they could handle a NC to the tune of a one point loss. The reality is when Lehigh gets to the playoffs the odds are that they actually win a game whne they get there!

Yea, that's not much to write about because they're a nonscholarship school. xcoffeex Please! That's more than can be written about the majority of scholarship programs! Anyone care to start a list of scholarship programs that haven't had three playoff wins in the past 9 years? I could start:

Richmond
Villanova
Maine
Missouri State
SFA
Montana State
Portland State
Eastern Washington
Southern Illinois

This is just a random sampling! The list is enormous! But unfortunately you need to acknowledge an FCS history that is longer than your school's association with it. Did you have a problem with the varying support levels in D II?

I'll also throw this out there: those (former) I-AA over I-A wins we love to congratulate on this board so much? Those nonscholarship schools you distain have three I-A wins since 2002.

So irrelevant I guess though...xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

Sorry. I've led you to the water, go do the drinking (please check out their books for yourself.)

No, I won't be doing that. Sorry.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm glad that you've found your short, provacative statements a comfortable way to express yourself. The problem is, they don't jive with reality. Take Lehigh for example.

In the past 9 seasons they have been in the playoffs 5 times. Those five times, they won a majority of their first round games (3). One loss was a one point loss to the eventual NC. The other loss was 27-15 to Hofstra in 1999.

So you look at that hard data, and say "not much to write about for the NS group" and think you're brilliant.

The reality is that Lehigh proved itself to be one of the top 8 teams in the nation 3 out of the past 9 years. They also proved that they could handle a NC to the tune of a one point loss. The reality is when Lehigh gets to the playoffs the odds are that they actually win a game whne they get there!

Yea, that's not much to write about because they're a nonscholarship school. xcoffeex Please! That's more than can be written about the majority of scholarship programs! Anyone care to start a list of scholarship programs that haven't had three playoff wins in the past 9 years? I could start:

Richmond
Villanova
Maine
Missouri State
SFA
Montana State
Portland State
Eastern Washington
Southern Illinois

This is just a random sampling! The list is enormous! But unfortunately you need to acknowledge an FCS history that is longer than your school's association with it. Did you have a problem with the varying support levels in D II?

I'll also throw this out there: those (former) I-AA over I-A wins we love to congratulate on this board so much? Those nonscholarship schools you distain have three I-A wins since 2002.

So irrelevant I guess though...xrolleyesx

You have made great logical argument that made sense, therefore he will either totally ignore the post or make a comeback like this that makes no sense. MPLS BISon "well how come Bucknell never made the playoffs". At first I was really mad with him, now its rather funny he is the only one supporting his side if the argument, with many nuetral parties supporting ours.

[colorless raider]

No, I won't be doing that. Sorry.

Gee, I never do that...I only post.

[Go...gate]

No, I won't be doing that. Sorry.


I'm afraid that speaks for itself.

[JoltinJoe]

The Ivy and PL programs are among the most storied in college football.

These teams have won national titles; produced some of the game's greatest personalities, players, and coaches; won major bowl games, and had undefeated seasons at the game's highest levels.

They have had years so memorable that their seasons are now remembered as part of college football folklore. Some of the schools even invented the game.

They are integral part of the FCS. Suggesting that these teams should leave is silly. The FCS would suffer in perception without these teams.

Nine out of the top 10 programs in the FCS in total all-time wins play in the Ivy or Patriot Leagues.

[DFW HOYA]

Nine out of the top 10 programs in the FCS in total all-time wins play in the Ivy or Patriot Leagues.

According to the College Football Data Warehouse, it's now eight, now that Dayton passed Colgate. Here are its top 10 by total wins.

1. Yale (839-327-55)
2. Pennsylvania (782-452-42)
3. Harvard (782-371-50)
4. Princeton (775-350-50)
5. Dartmouth (640-403-46)
6. Lafayette (626-532-39)
7. Delaware (619-398-44)
8. Lehigh (617-547-45)
9. Cornell (607-446-34)
10. Dayton (582-337-26)

[MplsBison]

Nine out of the top 10 programs in the FCS in total all-time wins play in the Ivy or Patriot Leagues.

The FCS was only invented in 1973.

I doubt highly that 9 of the top 10 in wins since 73 are IL or PL.

[JoltinJoe]

The FCS was only invented in 1973.

I doubt highly that 9 of the top 10 in wins since 73 are IL or PL.

"Total all-time wins" would include "total all-time wins." What part of that don't you understand?xreadx

[DFW HOYA]

From the NCAA Manual:

All-Time
1. Yale
2. Pennsylvania
3. Harvard
4. Princeton
5. Fordham
6. Dartmouth
7. Lafayette
8. Delaware
9. Lehigh
10. Cornell

2000's only
1. Montana
2. Ga. Southern
3. Grambling
4. Lehigh
5. Furman
6. Dayton
7. Western Kentucky
8. Colgate
9. Appalachian State
10. Delaware

[andy7171]

I feel a "Red Herring" comment to get his arguement back on track after all these factual and common sense roadblocks. :)

[travelinman67]

If it were a factually wrong statement, I would.


But the fact is, coaches at programs that give scholarships do not look at a player's financial need when deciding if they will offer that player.

MplsBison...that's not always the case...I've sat in on recruiting meetings when partials were divied up...and the financial need can become VERY important in the decision.

[Col Hogan]

MplsBison...that's not always the case...I've sat in on recruiting meetings when partials were divied up...and the financial need can become VERY important in the decision.

Facts...you'll confuse him with facts.....xcoolx

[MplsBison]

MplsBison...that's not always the case...I've sat in on recruiting meetings when partials were divied up...and the financial need can become VERY important in the decision.

That may very well be true.


But the decision to actually give a scholarship was made only with the intention of recruiting the athlete.


IMO, FCS should only be allowed to give full rides, as they do in FBS. But that's for another thread.

[Go...gate]

That may very well be true.


But the decision to actually give a scholarship was made only with the intention of recruiting the athlete.


IMO, FCS should only be allowed to give full rides, as they do in FBS. But that's for another thread.

Did not know that you cannot divide a scholarship at FBS level.

[andy7171]

That may very well be true.


But the decision to actually give a scholarship was made only with the intention of recruiting the athlete.


IMO, FCS should only be allowed to give full rides, as they do in FBS. But that's for another thread.

There are upwards of 120 players on a team. Are you saying that at the FBS level there are 30-40 players who are not recieving any type of money?? Did you just make that up? Why would FCS and lower divisions be able to split up scholarships and FBS not? xeyebrowx

[MplsBison]

Here's the deal with FBS.

Technically, they can split scholarships.

BUT, every player that gets any type of a scholarships is counted as a full equivalency.


So it does them no good to give a partial if it's going to be counted as a full.



And btw, for both FBS and FCS, schools are only allowed to have 95 players report to fall camp.

120 players would mean that there were 35 walkons once school started.

That's pretty high.

[Go...gate]

Here's the deal with FBS.

Technically, they can split scholarships.

BUT, every player that gets any type of a scholarships is counted as a full equivalency.


So it does them no good to give a partial if it's going to be counted as a full.



And btw, for both FBS and FCS, schools are only allowed to have 95 players report to fall camp.

120 players would mean that there were 35 walkons once school started.

That's pretty high.

So if you get a piece of a scholarship you count against the 85-minimum?

[MplsBison]

There's an 85 maximum and a 77 minimum.


Maybe a hypothetical example would help:

School A:

81 players on full scholarship

4 players on half scholarship


That means 83 equivalencies, right?

Wrong.

81+4 = 85 players on some type of a scholarship = 85 equivalencies.




Don't ask why it's like this. It is.

[Maverick]

In FBS, there are no partials, they are what the NCAA calls head-count sports. Basketball is the same way for both men and women. You can go to the NCAA website and download the NCAA manual which will list at the D-I level the maximum numbers of scholarship for each sport as well as telling you which are headcount and which are equivalencies (those that can be divided). In head count sports any is the same as all in equivalencies, the total aid cannot exceed the maximum number permissible. Strangely enough, FCS is a combination. 63 scholarships to no more than 85 individuals.

[colgate13]

That's all accurate. BCS football and Division I basketball are 'head count' sports. You could split them, but it would only be to save money, not to award to more than the maximum.

[blukeys]

I've refrained from posting here as it appears that this is yet another MplsBison attack on Eastern elites.

I don't understand why MplsBison even cares what the Patriot League does. If the Pl is such a bad conference then NDSU should be happy to play them in the playoffs in the future. I'm sure they will join their other Gateway Brethern in pounding the crap out of the PL!!!xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx Just Check the record of PL and Gateway matchups!!!!xnodx xnodx

On the issue of scholarships, most PL posters on this board are in favor of football scholarships. Needs based Grants (the correct term for those who don't know better) require a lot of paperwork. In the end most people don't know the difference. I met the parents of Henry White, one of the best Colgate backs of all time, and they told me that Henry went to Colgate on a " football scholarship". (They were really great people!!!)

As a Delaware fan, I can tell you that I have seen both sides of the "Needs Based" issue. Delaware used the "Needs Based" grants approach very successfully for 50 years. In that time they won 5 National Championships and numerous regional awards. I saw this approach from the inside as 2 of my friends were football players in the 70's. In my view scholarships involve a lot less hypocrisy and a whole let less paperwork.

Historically, "Needs Based Grants" grows out of the traditon of offering worthy and talented students a means of continuing their education past high school when those students did not have the financial means to pay for college. Those students had to submit financial documents demonstrating their need and they had to demonstrate extraordinary proficiency in one of a variety of areas to qualify for financial aid. One of those areas of proficiency could be athletics. But is was not limited to athletics. As I had 2 friends on the UD football team qualify for "Needs Based Grants" I also had another friend who qualified as a music major.

Needs Based Grants
When Delaware finally went to scholarships in the late 80's (one of the first scholarships went to Rich Gannon) most UD fans thought that we would clean up in I-AA.

It didn't happen.

Tubby Raymond was a master at recruiting in the "Needs Based" system. Competing with scollies put him on a much more equal playing field with the rest of the Yankee/A-10/CAA.

My view if the PL goes full scollie is this.

1. The conference as a whole will become more competitive. The Big 3 will have to scramble ala the CAA. Scollies will help the weaker sisters improve at the expense of the Big 3.
2. The PL will become more competitive in the playoffs but not significantly so. Scollies are not a cure all.
3. The Pl will decrease dependence on the Ivy League and will schedule more NEC and CAA teams.
4. Marist and Stonybrook will be the expansion teams of choice. (Richmond will never leave a league with W&M and Nova is still too snooty to leave a prestige league such as the CAA.)

There has been but one Private School I-AA Champion. For all of the dissing of the PL as Non-scollie, I think that fact is more indicative of the reason why PL schools have a below .500 playoff record. State assisted schools have a clear advantage. This should not be a reason to exclude private schools nor diminish their accomplishments. Their athletes work very hard to put forth a quality product. I love the David and Goliath matchups we get in FCS and hope they continue regardless of how certain athletes get funded.xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[LBPop]

they told me that Henry went to Colgate on a " football scholarship"


This story illustrates a minor (but relevant) point. I have run into several people who have told me about sons/daughters that received "scholarships" from Ivy League schools for football, swimming, etc. I think this adds to the confusion and I think there are two probable reasons for people saying this: 1) They just don't understand; 2) They would much rather say "swimming scholarship" than say, "financial aid".

By the time this gets settled, I will not be able to benefit in any way. But while Georgetown may suffer from this change, I would much rather see the PL go to scholarships than continue the status quo. Fundamentally the notion of true "need based aid" sounds noble. The problem is (as it always is) in how it is administered. The process is terribly flawed in a variety of ways and it can be quite demeaning to the applicant's family. It is also subject to gross manipulation if someone simply doesn't mind playing with a few numbers. Sadly, because I am in an industry that constantly evaluates financial capacity, these flaws are very obvious to me.

Hey, I do OK, but $48K x 4 after taxes (don't get me started on that issue) is a heck of a lot of money. How many families truly do not need aid at that level? My sense at Georgtown is that most people who really can afford it, don't ask for the aid. To my simple mind it's not too complicated. If you are going to admit athletes into schools for which they would not have otherwise qualilfied, then go ahead and give them some money for the same reason. It's far more pure and far less hypocritical. Of course at Georgetown the question will remain, "What money?" That's a different issue for a different thread.

[MplsBison]

That 950 million endowment can't all go straight to the presidents new Lexus fund, can it?


Perhaps the hospital sucks up a lot of money?

[Dane96]

Perhaps you should just zip it already.

[LBPop]

That 950 million endowment can't all go straight to the presidents new Lexus fund, can it?
Perhaps the hospital sucks up a lot of money?

Useless comment aside, you actually stumbled onto one of the issues at Georgetown. The hospital is a huge drain on cash, but it is a fact of life. The whole operation is very expensive to run and there's not a lot of spare money around.

[RichH2]

If we just ignore him maybe he will go away.

[DetroitFlyer]

I'm convinced that one of the things that keep Georgetown ranked above Dayton academically, is the medical school and hospital! Dayton is moving ever slow slowly into the medical fields, but I do not know if we will ever have a tru medical school. I could see a strong hospital tie in for research, but since Wright State in Dayton already has a medical school, UD gaining one is remote. I guess we will just have to figure out another way to surpass Georgetown.... The question of endowment is always interesting.... I thought I read somewhere that Stanford had a $280 million endowment just for football.... That is almost as much as UD's total endowment.... Spending money is always a balancing act, at home or in a university. Yeah, you could can the hospital at Georgetown and play FBS football, but that is not the vision of the university. So far, they have done pretty darn well.... EVERY school playing FCS football is walking that fine line of how to spend the money on football. At the end of the day, football spending has to fit in with the vision of the school in question. For the most part, FCS schools, all of them, do a good job of spending on football within the vision of the university. If we all had unlimited football funds from endowments or other sources, we would all be FBS....

[bison137]

And btw, for both FBS and FCS, schools are only allowed to have 95 players report to fall camp.

120 players would mean that there were 35 walkons once school started.

That's pretty high.


None of the above is correct according to the NCAA by-laws.

FBS schools can have 105 players in camp before school starts. FCS schools can have only 90 players in camp before school starts. HOWEVER if they award financial aid only on the basis of need and have only 35 practice units prior to the start of school (instead of 40), then they can have up to 110 players in camp before the start of school. Also if a FCS school has a true JV program, then it can exceed the player limit.

[Dane96]

I'm convinced that one of the things that keep Georgetown ranked above Dayton academically, is the medical school and hospital! Dayton is moving ever slow slowly into the medical fields, but I do not know if we will ever have a tru medical school. I could see a strong hospital tie in for research, but since Wright State in Dayton already has a medical school, UD gaining one is remote. I guess we will just have to figure out another way to surpass Georgetown.... The question of endowment is always interesting.... I thought I read somewhere that Stanford had a $280 million endowment just for football.... That is almost as much as UD's total endowment.... Spending money is always a balancing act, at home or in a university. Yeah, you could can the hospital at Georgetown and play FBS football, but that is not the vision of the university. So far, they have done pretty darn well.... EVERY school playing FCS football is walking that fine line of how to spend the money on football. At the end of the day, football spending has to fit in with the vision of the school in question. For the most part, FCS schools, all of them, do a good job of spending on football within the vision of the university. If we all had unlimited football funds from endowments or other sources, we would all be FBS....


Possibly their top law program and public policy programs, along with the International Program.

Are you seriously comparing Dayton to Georgetown in a way that gaining a medical school will allow you to equal or surpass them? Come on now.

A kid headed to a MAJOR URBAN city will have a leg up on a Dayton grad. The degree and alumni network puts G-Town in another stratosphere compared to Dayton.

No offense meant to the above the line education you get at Dayton...but to compare the two...well...that is a bit shocking.

[DetroitFlyer]

The last time I checked, Dayton was the 7 ranked Catholic university in the land. Georgetown was one of the schools ranked ahead of us. Dayton has been improving its national ranking for years, and certainly it is not beyond the realm of possibility that we could approach the Georgetown level at some point! Will that be next year? No. Thirty years from now, I would not be suprised! And, I think that Dayton and Georgetown should be playing each other in football! It would be a good match-up of schools at about the same overall level. We have Fordham the next three seasons, I sure would like to see Georgetown added to future schedules, ( home and home ).

[GannonFan]

The last time I checked, Dayton was the 7 ranked Catholic university in the land. Georgetown was one of the schools ranked ahead of us. Dayton has been improving its national ranking for years, and certainly it is not beyond the realm of possibility that we could approach the Georgetown level at some point! Will that be next year? No. Thirty years from now, I would not be suprised! And, I think that Dayton and Georgetown should be playing each other in football! It would be a good match-up of schools at about the same overall level. We have Fordham the next three seasons, I sure would like to see Georgetown added to future schedules, ( home and home ).


Dayton's a quality school, no doubt, but unless you plan on picking the campus up and dropping it in Wash DC it's going to always have trouble comparing with G-town. They certainly get a big boost, especially in international relations related work, from being located where they are. The Cincinnati area and that part of Ohio just won't be able to garner the same level of accolades. Doesn't take away from Dayton being a very good school, though.

[Model Citizen]

That would be a good one, but I think Georgetown will get Davidson on its schedule first.

[MplsBison]

The hospital is a huge drain on cash, but it is a fact of life. The whole operation is very expensive to run and there's not a lot of spare money around.

Do you think a proposal to sell the hospital and use the money for athletics would go over?

[Go...gate]

Useless comment aside, you actually stumbled onto one of the issues at Georgetown. The hospital is a huge drain on cash, but it is a fact of life. The whole operation is very expensive to run and there's not a lot of spare money around.

A similar problem arose at Seton Hall University in the 1950's and 60's, which is why there is now a University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey (UMDNJ). Without their divestiture of their medical school and affiliated hospital facilities, it is possible that Seton Hall would have gone under. Hospitals are prestigous but require enormous and increasing resources and long-term endowment.

[bison137]

The last time I checked, Dayton was the 7 ranked Catholic university in the land. Georgetown was one of the schools ranked ahead of us. Dayton has been improving its national ranking for years, and certainly it is not beyond the realm of possibility that we could approach the Georgetown level at some point! Will that be next year? No. Thirty years from now, I would not be suprised! And, I think that Dayton and Georgetown should be playing each other in football! It would be a good match-up of schools at about the same overall level. We have Fordham the next three seasons, I sure would like to see Georgetown added to future schedules, ( home and home ).


I'm not going to comment on location or any of the subjective things. However, here are how some of the objective measures stack up between the two (based on last year's stats, as per USNews):

Acceptance Rates: Georgetown 22%, Dayton 80%
Freshman Retention Rates: Georgetown 97%, Dayton 87%
Graduation Rates: Georgetown 93%, Dayton 79%

ACT Range * (raw score): Georgetown 29.2-33.5, Dayton 23-28

ACT Range * (percentiles): Georgetown 95%-99%, Dayton 70%-93%

* = 25th to 75th percentile for each school; Georgetown's scores have been converted from the SAT.

[DetroitFlyer]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Catholic National University Rankings:

1. Notre Dame, overall rank: 20 - FBS
2. Georgetown, overall rank: 23 - FCS
3. Boston College, overall rank: 34 - FBS
4. Fordham, overall rank: 70 - FCS
5. Saint Louis, overall rank: 77 - No Football, maybe a club team?
6. Marquette, overall rank: 81 - Well established club football
7. Dayton, overall rank: 105 - FCS
7. San Diego, overall rank: 105 - FCS

I bet that off the top of your head, you might not think to mention a Dayton or USD with a Fordham or Georgetown, but in "Catholic circles", it is not uncommon.... Schools like numbers one through four are fairly mature with little room for further improvement. They will improve, but schools like a Dayton or USD have much more potential for improvement, ( as in Dayton getting into more medical research, for example or improving the law school, etc. ). We are not there today, the difference between number 23 and number 105 is significant, but in thirty years, I see that gap closing a bit. It sure would be great to see Marquette or Saint Louis sign up for football. Talk about great potential PFL teams....

As for Georgetown / Davidson, I'm suprised that game has lapsed. Maybe Davidson winning at Georgetown the last time around made Georgetown a bit less enthused to play Davidson. I agree that Davidson will be on GT's schedule before Dayton, but if Dayton can travel to Fordham, we can certainly travel to DC.... Now Georgetown coming to Dayton....

[MplsBison]

Why would they rank Catholic universities?

Unless you're going into theology, does it matter?


Is there a protestant ranking as well?

[colorless raider]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Catholic National University Rankings:

1. Notre Dame, overall rank: 20 - FBS
2. Georgetown, overall rank: 23 - FCS
3. Boston College, overall rank: 34 - FBS
4. Fordham, overall rank: 70 - FCS
5. Saint Louis, overall rank: 77 - No Football, maybe a club team?
6. Marquette, overall rank: 81 - Well established club football
7. Dayton, overall rank: 105 - FCS
7. San Diego, overall rank: 105 - FCS

I bet that off the top of your head, you might not think to mention a Dayton or USD with a Fordham or Georgetown, but in "Catholic circles", it is not uncommon.... Schools like numbers one through four are fairly mature with little room for further improvement. They will improve, but schools like a Dayton or USD have much more potential for improvement, ( as in Dayton getting into more medical research, for example or improving the law school, etc. ). We are not there today, the difference between number 23 and number 105 is significant, but in thirty years, I see that gap closing a bit. It sure would be great to see Marquette or Saint Louis sign up for football. Talk about great potential PFL teams....

As for Georgetown / Davidson, I'm suprised that game has lapsed. Maybe Davidson winning at Georgetown the last time around made Georgetown a bit less enthused to play Davidson. I agree that Davidson will be on GT's schedule before Dayton, but if Dayton can travel to Fordham, we can certainly travel to DC.... Now Georgetown coming to Dayton....

Where is Holy Cross???

[DetroitFlyer]

"They", in this case is US News and World Reports and "they" do not rank Catholic universities. "They" rank all national universities. I simply pulled out the Catholic universities from the rankings. Feel free to do the same with whatever criteria you choose, maybe universities that have a dog as a mascot for example....

Believe me, the schools I listed know exactly how they stack up in the Catholic rankings, and use that in recruiting Catholic students.... Some people list Dayton as a "fall back" school for Notre Dame, as in if you are not accepted at Notre Dame, apply to Dayton as a back-up. There may be some truth to that, but from my personal experience with Dayton, and what I know about other schools, Notre Dame included, I would rank Dayton #1 in the world, bar none!! Of course some may think I am just a bit biased and not being objective here, but I stand 100% behind how I feel about my beloved Flyers and UD!! GO FLYERS!!!!!

[Fordham]

Why would they rank Catholic universities?

Unless you're going into theology, does it matter?


Is there a protestant ranking as well?

the rankings are one factor that helps determine who will be the last seed in Rd 1 of the FCS playoffs.

[DetroitFlyer]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_2141_brief.php

Ranked #32 as a Liberal Arts University. HC is not considered a "National University" by US News & World Reports.

[Mountaineer]

the rankings are one factor that helps determine who will be the last seed in Rd 1 of the FCS playoffs.

xlolx xlolx

Excellent. xthumbsupx

[aceinthehole]

"They", in this case is US News and World Reports and "they" do not rank Catholic universities. "They" rank all national universities. I simply pulled out the Catholic universities from the rankings. Feel free to do the same with whatever criteria you choose, maybe universities that have a dog as a mascot for example....

Believe me, the schools I listed know exactly how they stack up in the Catholic rankings, and use that in recruiting Catholic students.... Some people list Dayton as a "fall back" school for Notre Dame, as in if you are not accepted at Notre Dame, apply to Dayton as a back-up. There may be some truth to that, but from my personal experience with Dayton, and what I know about other schools, Notre Dame included, I would rank Dayton #1 in the world, bar none!! Of course some may think I am just a bit biased and not being objective here, but I stand 100% behind how I feel about my beloved Flyers and UD!! GO FLYERS!!!!!


Flyer - a very good post. Nice sources and no, you're not too biased. xsmiley_wix I think most here agree G-town in DC has a huge advantage in location and some of those stats bision posted. But Dayton is certainly impressive.

But if you are ranking Catholic universities, where is Seton Hall, 'Nova, Fairfield, and Gonzaga? Most don't play football, but shouldn't they be included?

[DetroitFlyer]

schools such as Villanova and Gonzaga are considered to be "Masters" universities and as such are ranked apart from the "National Universities". I do not know how US News and World Reports "qualifies" a school for the "National University" rankings, but I'm guessing that things like a broad based PhD program factors in, overall research factors in, etc. Maybe the level of football played factors in as well? OK, maybe not, but I find it interesting that in the Catholic rankings, 4 of the 6 schools ahead of Dayton play a "higher level" of football, ( assuming that the PL as ranked by GPI, is a higher level than the PFL ). Of course I cannot explain Saint Louis and Marquette using the football criteria.

[Dane96]

Bottom line: Georgetown vs. Dayton-- Most kids are choosing Georgetown.

[Franks Tanks]

Where is Holy Cross???

Holy Cross like Lafayette Bucknell and Colgate are ranked in the Liberal Arts category. He was just referencing the National University category.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross like Lafayette Bucknell and Colgate are ranked in the Liberal Arts category. He was just referencing the National University category.

Did Marist make any of these lists?

[PLLB]

If you start hearing from Holy Cross, Georgetown, or Bucknell, then it's news. In the meantime, I'd say there is not consensus


if the pl goes scholarship in football. The PL will not need those three schools the remaining schools become more attractive for nova, jmu, william and mary.

[Model Citizen]

Bottom line: Georgetown vs. Dayton-- Most kids are choosing Georgetown.

...except that the better football players choose UD. xpeacex

[Dane96]

This...is quite possibly true.