CAA: A Conference At A Crossroads

[DFW HOYA]

"Multiple sources, both inside and outside the conference, tell Extra Points that this identity crisis isn’t just an idle intellectual exercise, but one that poses a threat to the health of the league. Without understanding exactly what the league is, and wants to be now, agreeing on any sort of plan for the future becomes much more difficult...As one athletic official at a CAA school put it, the league’s athletic directors just plain don’t like each other very much. Part of that tension stems from the league’s identity problem."

https://extrapoints.substack.com/p/a-conference-at-a-crossroads-where (https://extrapoints.substack.com/p/a-conference-at-a-crossroads-where)

[Baron Sardonicus]

Most conferences are merely marriages of convenience, formed to get access to NCAA championships. Why should the CAA be any different?

I do like the Spiderman graphic...

[Sader87]

I liken the CAA in football to the A-10 in hoop, a mish-mash of schools in many ways (geographically, institutionally etc) that is held together to play their premier sport ( strong FCS football, high mid-major hoop).

As we've said ad infinitum here and elsewhere, Richmond, W&M and Villanova are a better fit institutionally etc for the Patriot League in football but that remains the Holy Grail in the league office in Pennsylvania.

[DFW HOYA]

As we've said ad infinitum here and elsewhere, Richmond, W&M and Villanova are a better fit institutionally etc for the Patriot League in football but that remains the Holy Grail in the league office in Pennsylvania.

Be careful: the CAA north might feel that Colgate, Fordham, or Holy Cross would be a better fit for a reboot of the Yankee Conference (Maine, UNH, URI, plus Stony Brook and Albany)

[Sader87]

Be careful: the CAA north might feel that Colgate, Fordham, or Holy Cross would be a better fit for a reboot of the Yankee Conference (Maine, UNH, URI, plus Stony Brook and Albany)

Holy Cross was actually in the Yankee Conference for a cup of coffee in the early 1970s. They joined alongside BU at the time. HC dropped after a year or two and went back to being independent in football and hoop.

https://americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/Yankee_Conference

[NY Crusader 2010]

I liken the CAA in football to the A-10 in hoop, a mish-mash of schools in many ways (geographically, institutionally etc) that is held together to play their premier sport ( strong FCS football, high mid-major hoop).

As we've said ad infinitum here and elsewhere, Richmond, W&M and Villanova are a better fit institutionally etc for the Patriot League in football but that remains the Holy Grail in the league office in Pennsylvania.

I disagree with my fellow Crusader. I don't see the CAA as being a conference in crisis at all. The biggest threat to the FOOTBALL league as it is now would be the America East becoming a sponsor of football (presumably needing to add HC, Colgate & Merrimack). But CAA Football could add all or some combination of Fordham, Georgetown, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell in that case and the league could add the likes of Monmouth and Fairfield for all sports (along with some of the PL schools). Not to mention they have the ability to expand further in the state of NC and SC.

The CAA will be fine.

And William & Mary and Richmond are NEVER joining the Patriot League.

[KPSUL]

Misnamed article. "Instead of conference at a crossroads", it should be "conference dealing with the same issues as numerous others". I'm not sure what crossroad the CAA has reached. In fact, football may be the strength of the CAA at the moment. Nothing earth shattering here - unless you really want to believe that ALL the ADs hate one another. Wow, the schools, and ADs, prioritize different sports, we haven't witnessed that before have we? All twelve schools were not in complete agreement on playing Fall sports; and the rest of the United States displayed such a high level of agreement and cooperation on the pandemic, who would have thought!
So Curt Cegnetti thinks the "bottom teams" are holding back the "Top Teams" ( meaning only JMU) at times. How? Like by forcing them to schedule the weakest OOC FCS teams year after year?

[Henny]

What's more concerning to me is if some schools in the CAA can handle the financial impact of Covid and what that means to their football programs.

[mainejeff]

The only question mark regarding the CAA is......when will JMU leave? There are plenty of other programs to add to CAA Football when/if need arises.

[DFW HOYA]

The only question mark regarding the CAA is......when will JMU leave? There are plenty of other programs to add to CAA Football when/if need arises.

Not sure the phrase "plenty" applies but I would be curious as to whom you see as candidates within the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic.

[KPSUL]

Not sure the phrase "plenty" applies but I would be curious as to whom you see as candidates within the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic.

Monmouth - probably the most obvious choice. I'm sure they'd leave the Big South for the CAA anytime.

[The Boogie Down]

I disagree with my fellow Crusader. I don't see the CAA as being a conference in crisis at all. The biggest threat to the FOOTBALL league as it is now would be the America East becoming a sponsor of football (presumably needing to add HC, Colgate & Merrimack). But CAA Football could add all or some combination of Fordham, Georgetown, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell in that case and the league could add the likes of Monmouth and Fairfield for all sports (along with some of the PL schools). Not to mention they have the ability to expand further in the state of NC and SC.

The CAA will be fine.

And William & Mary and Richmond are NEVER joining the Patriot League.


If, as you mention, the America East were to sponsor football and take the bulk of the CAA's Northern teams, then the CAA responded by raiding the PL and turning that into the new CAA's Northern contingent, then no, the CAA would not be fine.

The CAA name would be fine but not the league itself. In that scenario the league would simply be emphasizing that it's the same revolving door of teams it's been since Northeastern/Hofstra dropped. To be honest, with the original Maine, UHN, UMass (before jumping) and URI core going from Yankee, to A-10, to CAA in just the past 25 years and the constant possibility of an America East football emergence, I'm not even sure the CAA name itself is all that safe. Perhaps W&M and Richmond never join the Patriot League but I'd bet that the PL is still around, and with its core-four, in 40-50 years. CAA football? I wouldn't count on it.

[KPSUL]

Seriously, who cares if the words "Colonial" or "Patriot" are used together with league or conference 40 - 50 years from now? Right now the CAA is working reasonable well for the 12 members. Yes, given the option of joining the ACC or the AAC, JMU will jump to FBS; however, it has been their goal for nearly 10 years and it hasn't happened, so it doesn't seem real likely over the short-term. If it does happen, JMU will be replaced in short order. All the rest of this is just gossip. The composition of FCS football conferences change constantly. The CAA has been one of the more stable during the past 10 years.
Oh, one more thing, Patriot does not equal Ivy. Not even close.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Seriously, who cares if the words "Colonial" or "Patriot" are used together with league or conference 40 - 50 years from now? Right now the CAA is working reasonable well for the 12 members. Yes, given the option of joining the ACC or the AAC, JMU will jump to FBS; however, it has been their goal for nearly 10 years and it hasn't happened, so it doesn't seem real likely over the short-term. If it does happen, JMU will be replaced in short order. All the rest of this is just gossip. The composition of FCS football conferences change constantly. The CAA has been one of the more stable during the past 10 years.
Oh, one more thing, Patriot does not equal Ivy. Not even close.

JMU's FBS options are Sun Belt, C-USA or MAC. They are not getting invited to the AAC as a direct move-up from FCS. ACC membership will never be on the table in the lifetime of any poster on this board.

I actually am very high on the Sun Belt Conference -- used to be a bit of a joke but I think it's actually a stronger league now than C-USA with a more defined footprint and better mix of schools and rivalries. Funny because it used to be that after you moved up from I-AA to the Sun Belt, you "graduated" to the stronger Conference USA. Now I think that a few schools in C-USA should seriously look into moving BACK to the Sun Belt. I think it would be really exciting if the following schools were all in the same FBS conference, you'd have the core of an "Appalachian League" of sorts:

JMU, Liberty, App State, Marshall, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Georgia Southern, Troy, ULL, Arkansas State

All those schools are football-first and would be great fit together under Sun Belt banner. Then maybe you have the more urban/coastal schools all together in the same conference under C-USA banner: UAB, UTEP, UTSA, FAU, FI, Coastal, ODU, South Alabama, Southern Miss, etc.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If, as you mention, the America East were to sponsor football and take the bulk of the CAA's Northern teams, then the CAA responded by raiding the PL and turning that into the new CAA's Northern contingent, then no, the CAA would not be fine.

The CAA name would be fine but not the league itself. In that scenario the league would simply be emphasizing that it's the same revolving door of teams it's been since Northeastern/Hofstra dropped. To be honest, with the original Maine, UHN, UMass (before jumping) and URI core going from Yankee, to A-10, to CAA in just the past 25 years and the constant possibility of an America East football emergence, I'm not even sure the CAA name itself is all that safe. Perhaps W&M and Richmond never join the Patriot League but I'd bet that the PL is still around, and with its core-four, in 40-50 years. CAA football? I wouldn't count on it.

While the constant possibility of an A-East football emergence gets routinely brought up on sports boards, I have never even heard it come up in discussion in "real" circles. UNH, Maine, Albany and Stony Brook aren't dropping football anytime soon and I'm pretty sure all are happy where they are in the CAA.

If anything, America East Football might actually be catalyzed by America East one day taking over the Hockey East Conference. In that case, Merrimack, Northeastern, BU and Holy Cross** could very well all become full-time A East members. In that case, A-East football could theoretically be launched with Merrimack, HC, UNH, Maine, Albany, URI and Stony Brook.

** - While we are currently the most likely core member to ever leave, HC administration is currently very happy with the Patriot League. However, the one conference move we've been pining for of late has been getting Men's Hockey into Hockey East. If A-East took over the Hockey East banner and joining America East as a full-time member would gain us entry to the premier hockey league in the region, Holy Cross would almost definitely pull the trigger IMO.

[KPSUL]

JMU's FBS options are Sun Belt, C-USA or MAC. They are not getting invited to the AAC as a direct move-up from FCS. ACC membership will never be on the table in the lifetime of any poster on this board.

I actually am very high on the Sun Belt Conference -- used to be a bit of a joke but I think it's actually a stronger league now than C-USA with a more defined footprint and better mix of schools and rivalries. Funny because it used to be that after you moved up from I-AA to the Sun Belt, you "graduated" to the stronger Conference USA. Now I think that a few schools in C-USA should seriously look into moving BACK to the Sun Belt. I think it would be really exciting if the following schools were all in the same FBS conference, you'd have the core of an "Appalachian League" of sorts:

JMU, Liberty, App State, Marshall, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Georgia Southern, Troy, ULL, Arkansas State

All those schools are football-first and would be great fit together under Sun Belt banner. Then maybe you have the more urban/coastal schools all together in the same conference under C-USA banner: UAB, UTEP, UTSA, FAU, FI, Coastal, ODU, South Alabama, Southern Miss, etc.

I believe that JMU turned down an offer to join the Sun belt. You are accurately describing JMU's realistic options; however, I think they consider themselves a better fit for the ACC and AAC. I agree, they have little or no chance of being invited to join the ACC, but the probably have a reasonable chance of eventually getting into the American Athletic Conference.

[solohawks]

I gotta think the CAA would be fine if the AEast took the northern affiliates. Richmond and Nova would remain for the core CAA football 5 giving it a solid 7 worst case scenario

[NY Crusader 2010]

I believe that JMU turned down an offer to join the Sun belt. You are accurately describing JMU's realistic options; however, I think they consider themselves a better fit for the ACC and AAC. I agree, they have little or no chance of being invited to join the ACC, but the probably have a reasonable chance of eventually getting into the American Athletic Conference.

JMU's chances of EVER getting into the ACC are about the same as Harrisonburg, VA winning a bid to host the Summer Olympics.

As far as the AAC, this is a conference that is trying to brand itself as P6. They are not adding an FCS upstart when they have about 15 other options to fill UCONN's spot. Not impossible that JMU could one day get invited to this conference but it's not happening any time soon and not directly out of the CAA.

[mainejeff]

While the constant possibility of an A-East football emergence gets routinely brought up on sports boards, I have never even heard it come up in discussion in "real" circles. UNH, Maine, Albany and Stony Brook aren't dropping football anytime soon and I'm pretty sure all are happy where they are in the CAA.

If anything, America East Football might actually be catalyzed by America East one day taking over the Hockey East Conference. In that case, Merrimack, Northeastern, BU and Holy Cross** could very well all become full-time A East members. In that case, A-East football could theoretically be launched with Merrimack, HC, UNH, Maine, Albany, URI and Stony Brook.

** - While we are currently the most likely core member to ever leave, HC administration is currently very happy with the Patriot League. However, the one conference move we've been pining for of late has been getting Men's Hockey into Hockey East. If A-East took over the Hockey East banner and joining America East as a full-time member would gain us entry to the premier hockey league in the region, Holy Cross would almost definitely pull the trigger IMO.

Interesting take. I also think that COVID might hasten more changes in conference membership as schools try to contain costs and limit travel a bit more. I feel very comfortable with any football arrangement as long as the Northern core group of Maine/UNH/Albany/Stony Brook stay together. As long as URI is playing football.....you can add them to that group. America East has been quite a case study in the metamorphosis and survival of a mid-major athletic conference. The league has overcome the loss of many members yet has continued to thrive due to timely additions of schools that have moved up to D-1. Luckily, all of those more recent additions have been state schools that are on the same page for the most part in terms of athletic, academics and social standards.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Interesting take. I also think that COVID might hasten more changes in conference membership as schools try to contain costs and limit travel a bit more. I feel very comfortable with any football arrangement as long as the Northern core group of Maine/UNH/Albany/Stony Brook stay together. As long as URI is playing football.....you can add them to that group. America East has been quite a case study in the metamorphosis and survival of a mid-major athletic conference. The league has overcome the loss of many members yet has continued to thrive due to timely additions of schools that have moved up to D-1. Luckily, all of those more recent additions have been state schools that are on the same page for the most part in terms of athletic, academics and social standards.

A prime example of this would be Northeastern. When they joined the CAA back in 2002 or whatever it was, it made sense because they were at the time committed to football. So they got to a) upgrade conferences and b) solidify football membership in a league with many of their New England peers. About 6-7 years ago, it was purported/assumed that Albany would be soon joining the CAA as an all-sports member a couple years after they hopped on as a football affiliate. Supposedly, they wanted to wait a couple years because they were hosting the A-East basketball tournament. However, it seems that now this conversation is over. Without the possibility of a more local school like Albany or Fairfield joining the CAA, what's the reason for Northeastern to stay in, especially since football is long out the window?

[DFW HOYA]

This would be a more interesting scenario if the Patriot League as in the discussion, but the PL would sooner disband football than expand it. Of the former, I think there's a 15-20% chance of that in this decade. Of the latter, less.

[NY Crusader 2010]

This would be a more interesting scenario if the Patriot League as in the discussion, but the PL would sooner disband football than expand it. Of the former, I think there's a 15-20% chance of that in this decade. Of the latter, less.

The PL would have a huge and potentially catastrophic football problem on its hands if even one of the core members were to leave. Luckily for the PL, none of those five schools have really even flirted with leaving dating back to 1991. If Georgetown or Fordham were to leave, this would also not be good, but would be survivable in the short term.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL would have a huge and potentially catastrophic football problem on its hands if even one of the core members were to leave. Luckily for the PL, none of those five schools have really even flirted with leaving dating back to 1991. If Georgetown or Fordham were to leave, this would also not be good, but would be survivable in the short term.

It's more than potentially catastrophic--by the bylaws if any of the five left, the PL would no longer sponsor the sport.

The scenario would be that Colgate tires of spending $6M a year being in a perpetual one bid league and considers football only membership in the CAA, which protects the school's lower wattage teams to stay in the PL.

[KPSUL]

A prime example of this would be Northeastern. When they joined the CAA back in 2002 or whatever it was, it made sense because they were at the time committed to football. So they got to a) upgrade conferences and b) solidify football membership in a league with many of their New England peers. About 6-7 years ago, it was purported/assumed that Albany would be soon joining the CAA as an all-sports member a couple years after they hopped on as a football affiliate. Supposedly, they wanted to wait a couple years because they were hosting the A-East basketball tournament. However, it seems that now this conversation is over. Without the possibility of a more local school like Albany or Fairfield joining the CAA, what's the reason for Northeastern to stay in, especially since football is long out the window?

You're drifting off topic here. Northeastern? I don't think whether or not they leave the CAA has any impact on CAA Football. By far Hockey is the #1 sport at Northeastern, what's best for the Hockey program would likely supersede all other Varsity sports decisions.

[NY Crusader 2010]

You're drifting off topic here. Northeastern? I don't think whether or not they leave the CAA has any impact on CAA Football. By far Hockey is the #1 sport at Northeastern, what's best for the Hockey program would likely supersede all other Varsity sports decisions.

Correct. Drifting off topic to respond to mainejeff point about COVID and schools looking for geographically more friendly conferences. Northeastern leaving the CAA would indeed have zero impact on the football conference.

[NY Crusader 2010]

It's more than potentially catastrophic--by the bylaws if any of the five left, the PL would no longer sponsor the sport.

The scenario would be that Colgate tires of spending $6M a year being in a perpetual one bid league and considers football only membership in the CAA, which protects the school's lower wattage teams to stay in the PL.

This is correct. In that case, the PL would need to do one of the following:

1) Convince BU to sponsor football again
2) Add an eleventh full-time member, who would need to sponsor football (Monmouth, Bryant, Merrimack, SHU, Marist, etc.)
3) Hope that Fordham decides to give up on A-10 and become full-time member

[KPSUL]

JMU's chances of EVER getting into the ACC are about the same as Harrisonburg, VA winning a bid to host the Summer Olympics.

As far as the AAC, this is a conference that is trying to brand itself as P6. They are not adding an FCS upstart when they have about 15 other options to fill UCONN's spot. Not impossible that JMU could one day get invited to this conference but it's not happening any time soon and not directly out of the CAA.

My original point regarding JMU is that while they are unlikely to find an FBS options that suits them, if they did leave, the CAA would find a suitable replacement quite quickly.
However, I do disagree with your assessment regarding the AAC.

Which 15 schools would be better options than JMU?

JMU has grown in stature, size and reputation faster than any other school I'm aware of over the past 20 years. Pre-pandemic, they had more than 20,000 undergraduates - the vast majority traditional college students. And, by today's standards, they tend to like football. JMU has become immensely popular among the No VA, DC beltway crowd. It is not uncommon to see a kid get into VCU or George Mason, but not JMU. JMU has become a common back-up choice for UVA. JMU has the largest number of Graduate Programs in Virginia. The campus, particularly the older Bluestone area, is beautiful. They are building a large new convocation center currently under construction. Purely in terms of the overall quality and appeal as a University, JMU is a cut above all the current Sun Belt Schools, as well as some of the AAC. As far as football, JMU has been the top CAA team for the past several years, with two National Championship Appearances. They are the only team not named NDSU that has won one in recent memory. They have beaten two current AAC teams over the past 5 seasons. In addition to much better than average student support, they have a solid following in the local community and a local TV station that reports on them fairly extensively. Their stadium currently seats something like 22,000 and they have a very viable plan to increase that to over 30,000.
Now see what you made me do - standing up for JMU may ruin my status as a JMU detractor among the CAA AGS members.

[DFW HOYA]

This is correct. In that case, the PL would need to do one of the following:

1) Convince BU to sponsor football again
2) Add an eleventh full-time member, who would need to sponsor football (Monmouth, Bryant, Merrimack, SHU, Marist, etc.)
3) Hope that Fordham decides to give up on A-10 and become full-time member

1. If BU has shown no institutional interest in the last 24 years to add football, why would that change? It's not like the PL would kick them out.
2. If no new full time football member has show serious interest in joining in the last 25 years, why would that change now?
3. Why would Fordham seriously reconsider the PL?

[NY Crusader 2010]

My original point regarding JMU is that while they are unlikely to find an FBS options that suits them, if they did leave, the CAA would find a suitable replacement quite quickly.
However, I do disagree with your assessment regarding the AAC.

Which 15 schools would be better options than JMU?

JMU has grown in stature, size and reputation faster than any other school I'm aware of over the past 20 years. Pre-pandemic, they had more than 20,000 undergraduates - the vast majority traditional college students. And, by today's standards, they tend to like football. JMU has become immensely popular among the No VA, DC beltway crowd. It is not uncommon to see a kid get into VCU or George Mason, but not JMU. JMU has become a common back-up choice for UVA. JMU has the largest number of Graduate Programs in Virginia. The campus, particularly the older Bluestone area, is beautiful. They are building a large new convocation center currently under construction. Purely in terms of the overall quality and appeal as a University, JMU is a cut above all the current Sun Belt Schools, as well as some of the AAC. As far as football, JMU has been the top CAA team for the past several years, with two National Championship Appearances. They are the only team not named NDSU that has won one in recent memory. They have beaten two current AAC teams over the past 5 seasons. In addition to much better than average student support, they have a solid following in the local community and a local TV station that reports on them fairly extensively. Their stadium currently seats something like 22,000 and they have a very viable plan to increase that to over 30,000.
Now see what you made me do - standing up for JMU may ruin my status as a JMU detractor among the CAA AGS members.

Boise State
BYU
Air Force (could join as football affiliate and move other sports to Summit)
Colorado State
Charlotte
Rice
Marshall
UAB
Old Dominion
Southern Miss
Georgia State
UTSA
UTEP
Buffalo

15 maybe an exaggeration but there's a list of 14. I didn't include Army because in order for that to happen, the two academies would have to move up the date of the Army-Navy game, thus losing their traditional standalone TV time slot on the second Saturday in December (only football that day is the Army-Navy game and Heisman ceremony that night). And yes, I know a few of the Western schools wouldn't necessarily join but it's probable that Boise, CSU or BYU would at least entertain overtures from the AAC, which has already stated that it is interested in looking west.

And of course, JMU is BETTER AT FOOTBALL RIGHT NOW than at least a few schools on this list if not more. But if the AAC is going to expand there are a few factors they are going to look:

1) Major media markets -- this is important when you are looking to be viewed as P6. Hence Georgia State, UTSA, Charlotte, Buffalo
2) Past rivalries & relationships with other schools in the league => see Rice, Southern Miss, UAB, UTEP
3) Strong Men's Basketball Pedigree => This is important when your flagship basketball school is the one your replacing. See ODU, UAB

[NY Crusader 2010]

1. If BU has shown no institutional interest in the last 24 years to add football, why would that change? It's not like the PL would kick them out.
2. If no new full time football member has show serious interest in joining in the last 25 years, why would that change now?
3. Why would Fordham seriously reconsider the PL?

All three of those questions are good questions. Which only go to highlight exactly how desperate of a situation the PL will find itself in if someone does decide to leave. Out of the 3 that I posted, the most likely option is that the league will be forced to admit a football playing all-sports member that falls well below the academic profile of the rest of the league. For most conferences, this wouldn't be a big deal but for Ivy Lite, this will be an upsetting development for some.

The 4th option is obviously a change in bylaw.

[KPSUL]

Boise State
BYU
Air Force (could join as football affiliate and move other sports to Summit)
Colorado State
Charlotte
Rice
Marshall
UAB
Old Dominion
Southern Miss
Georgia State
UTSA
UTEP
Buffalo

15 maybe an exaggeration but there's a list of 14. I didn't include Army because in order for that to happen, the two academies would have to move up the date of the Army-Navy game, thus losing their traditional standalone TV time slot on the second Saturday in December (only football that day is the Army-Navy game and Heisman ceremony that night). And yes, I know a few of the Western schools wouldn't necessarily join but it's probable that Boise, CSU or BYU would at least entertain overtures from the AAC, which has already stated that it is interested in looking west.

And of course, JMU is BETTER AT FOOTBALL RIGHT NOW than at least a few schools on this list if not more. But if the AAC is going to expand there are a few factors they are going to look:

1) Major media markets -- this is important when you are looking to be viewed as P6. Hence Georgia State, UTSA, Charlotte, Buffalo
2) Past rivalries & relationships with other schools in the league => see Rice, Southern Miss, UAB, UTEP
3) Strong Men's Basketball Pedigree => This is important when your flagship basketball school is the one your replacing. See ODU, UAB

After you remove the 4 Western schools, all of which would have no interest in the AAC, I would put JMU among the top 3 or 4 candidates on your list. Rice, if truly interested, at the top. However, as I originally posted, I expect to see JMU playing in the CAA at least for the next several seasons.

[NY Crusader 2010]

IMO -- UAB, Charlotte and Rice are the top 3 candidates to fill the open AAC spot left behind by UCONN with the 3 wild-cards being AFA (as a football affiliate only), ODU and Buffalo.

I think JMU brass might have just come to the realization at this point that maybe "it's just not that much better on the other side" and are therefore not jumping on opportunities in the Sun Belt, MAC or C-USA. An AAC invite would obviously be an offer they couldn't refuse but I just can't see it happening. Too many established decent-to-good options for the league to choose from as opposed to bringing in an FCS upstart.

[Sitting Bull]

JMU should have followed App State when they had the chance several years ago. They misjudged, overestimated, their position when they needed to make a leap of faith. Their stock has been dropping ever since. Elon has even now passed them in the USNWR academic rankings.

[The Boogie Down]

Seriously, who cares if the words "Colonial" or "Patriot" are used together with league or conference 40 - 50 years from now? Right now the CAA is working reasonable well for the 12 members. Yes, given the option of joining the ACC or the AAC, JMU will jump to FBS; however, it has been their goal for nearly 10 years and it hasn't happened, so it doesn't seem real likely over the short-term. If it does happen, JMU will be replaced in short order. All the rest of this is just gossip. The composition of FCS football conferences change constantly. The CAA has been one of the more stable during the past 10 years.
Oh, one more thing, Patriot does not equal Ivy. Not even close.

Huh? How did the Ivies get into this? Either way facts are that Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette have been playing each other on a consistent basis since the '90s. 1890s to be more exact. Colgate has been part of the equation since about 1960. So yeah, I'd bet that core-four sticks around together for longer than say JMU (or Monmouth if that's the favored replacement) and the SUNY schools.

Just my 2 cents on the internet, which as far as I know, is known for gossip.

As for conferences constantly changing, yeah, that seems to be the case. But after losing 4 full-time members and a slew of associate members over the past 10 years I'd hardly say the CAA has been one of the more stable conferences during the past 10 years. Maybe your opinion on "more stable" is different than mine? Maybe your opinion on "reasonably well" for a conference with 10 members (but only 5 of which are playing football) is different than mine too?

All that said I do recognize the New England rivalries, the Virginian ones and Villanova/Delaware too. But of those 3 different sets, the only one I can see staying in league 40 or 50 years from now is the New England ones. And those are all America East schools.

[bluehenbillk]

How does the Patsy League always hijack CAA threads? CAA definitely at a crossroads now that schools are faced with cutting sports/scholarship levels (the latter possibly effecting FB).....

[KPSUL]

As for conferences constantly changing, yeah, that seems to be the case. But after losing 4 full-time members and a slew of associate members over the past 10 years I'd hardly say the CAA has been one of the more stable conferences during the past 10 years. Maybe your opinion on "more stable" is different than mine? Maybe your opinion on "reasonably well" for a conference with 10 members (but only 5 of which are playing football) is different than mine too?
All that said
I do recognize the New England rivalries, the Virginian ones and Villanova/Delaware too. But of those 3 different sets, the only one I can see staying in league 40 or 50 years from now is the New England ones. And those are all America East schools.

This is a football Message Board, so all my comments are focused on CAA FOOTBALL. During the past 10 years, the CAA lost one member in 2012 (UMASS). Two teams joined on an interim basis, (ODU and Georgia St) both of which made it pretty clear from the start that it would be a touch and go stop on the way to the FBS level. It was a win-win that kept the conference up to strength while giving GA State and ODU the FCS credibility and affiliation they needed to make the move. Stony Brook and Albany were strong additions to the conference in 2013 , as was Elon in 2014. All three teams left other FCS football conferences for the CAA. I fail to see the doom and gloom in all of this. I see a football conference other teams are trying to join, not leave.

[DFW HOYA]

By the mid-1980's, Yankee Conference football supplanted the Ivy League as the predominant league in the Northeast below the handful of major college independents. Despite some changes in name and in the roster, CAA football still holds that today, with no challengers on the horizon. The Ivy League isn't motivated enough, the NEC is too small, and the Patriot lives in some sort of institutional amber.

Where you get the churn is that the Northeast has no path upward as do other regions within I-AA/FCS. The Sun Belt and Conference USA do not cross the Mason-Dixon line. The moves by UConn and UMass have been painful at best and a failure at worst--not because they couldn't compete, but because there was no regional base to support it: no one wants to travel to east Hartford to see UConn play East Carolina. Were there a comparable "Rust Belt" conference to aspire to, programs like JMU, Delaware, Villanova, New Hampshire and perhaps Holy Cross would have considered it.

If it wants, the CAA could be that Northern version of Conference USA and perhaps reconnect with the academies and Buffalo to bring together I-A level football to the region. Conversely, it could refocus on schools like Richmond, Elon, and W&M that have no will to move upward but would like to build long term playoff consideration. But it really can't do both.

[NY Crusader 2010]

By the mid-1980's, Yankee Conference football supplanted the Ivy League as the predominant league in the Northeast below the handful of major college independents. Despite some changes in name and in the roster, CAA football still holds that today, with no challengers on the horizon. The Ivy League isn't motivated enough, the NEC is too small, and the Patriot lives in some sort of institutional amber.

Where you get the churn is that the Northeast has no path upward as do other regions within I-AA/FCS. The Sun Belt and Conference USA do not cross the Mason-Dixon line. The moves by UConn and UMass have been painful at best and a failure at worst--not because they couldn't compete, but because there was no regional base to support it: no one wants to travel to east Hartford to see UConn play East Carolina. Were there a comparable "Rust Belt" conference to aspire to, programs like JMU, Delaware, Villanova, New Hampshire and perhaps Holy Cross would have considered it.

If it wants, the CAA could be that Northern version of Conference USA and perhaps reconnect with the academies and Buffalo to bring together I-A level football to the region. Conversely, it could refocus on schools like Richmond, Elon, and W&M that have no will to move upward but would like to build long term playoff consideration. But it really can't do both.

The lack of an FBS landing spot is what makes the CAA MORE stable in my opinion. We all know the next 5 years are "poop or get off the pot" time for JMU. But when it comes to the rest of the conference, there don't seem to be any schools outside of maybe URI that would either threaten to drop or de-emphasize the sport. Nor are there any besides JMU that would appear to have G5 aspirations.

William & Mary - not going anywhere
Delaware - not going anywhere
Towson - not going anywhere
Elon - not going anywhere
Richmond - not going anywhere
Villanova - not going anywhere
UNH/Maine - not going anywhere unless A-East football becomes a thing
URI - flirted with de-emphasizing in 2010 when the temporarily agreed to join NEC and reduce schollies, but reversed course. Only CAA school I could one day see dropping fb.
Albany/Stony Brook - likely that both one day become all sports members, whenever Hofstra decides to drop the hatchet and stop blocking SBU's entrance to the CAA.
UMASS - Possible they come back to the CAA in 5 years once they see handwriting on wall that they have nowhere to go at the FBS level

In short, CAA Football membership appears to be very solid in the medium term. Biggest threat is really the Northern schools leaving due to A-East Football one day coming to fruition. I don't think there's any push for this to development from member schools because those that sponsor football are likely pretty happy playing in a top FCS conference. And none of the non-football playing members of A-EAST have any interest in starting football to my knowledge. A mix of HC, Colgate and Merrimack would have to decide to join the league as full-time members first for it even to be a possibility. And like I said, it's probably even more likely that SBU and Albany join the CAA as all-sports members before that ever takes place.

[DFW HOYA]

So there is no way any Northeast team can aspire to be anywhere better than where they are now?

[The Boogie Down]

I fail to see the doom and gloom in all of this. I see a football conference other teams are trying to join, not leave.
I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom. My original point was that CAA football has not been that stable, and it would be even less so if the AE teams left and the CAA responded by attempting to raid the PL. I also added my prediction that the PL's core-four would be sticking around together far longer than any combo of CAA schools. NY Crusader's list hasn't done anything to sway me.

But DFW Hoya is right in pointing out that the Yankee/A-10/CAA has been the Northeast's strongest conference since the mid '80s.

Will be interesting to see what the CAA does after the P-5 finally breaks away and that forever talked about G-5/FCS merger happens. Especially if it were to happen sooner than later and as bluehenbillik points out, while schools, particularly ones with small endowments, are making cuts.


So there is no way any Northeast team can aspire to be anywhere better than where they are now?

Not in the FCS really. For instance ND State is in the midst of the greatest dynasty FCS has ever seen but do Clemson diehards know that? USC diehards? What about more casual fans? Doubt it.

That's too bad b/c I love FCS and can't believe how under-appreciated this entire level is. From ND State knocking off all those B1G and Big XII teams, to the amount of talent the FCS puts into the NFL, to the HoF icons who got their start at this level, I've always been truly stunned that more people don't care. But a P-5 break will give everyone else the chance to redefine themselves. Maybe, just maybe, enough people will be turned off by the P-5 and their semi-pro status to give the rest of us some more attention.

[mainejeff]

How does the Patsy League always hijack CAA threads? CAA definitely at a crossroads now that schools are faced with cutting sports/scholarship levels (the latter possibly effecting FB).....

Ding ding ding. And on that note the Harold Alfond Foundation has announced $500 million in distributions for this year. Among the 8 recipients will be the University of Maine with some of the $$$ specifically designated for athletics. As it relates to football....hopefully new turf for Alfond Stadium is on the docket. UMaine supposedly making an announcement today.

[dunbar]

Ding ding ding. And on that note the Harold Alfond Foundation has announced $500 million in distributions for this year. Among the 8 recipients will be the University of Maine with some of the $$$ specifically designated for athletics. As it relates to football....hopefully new turf for Alfond Stadium is on the docket. UMaine supposedly making an announcement today.

Far more than that... $90 million.

https://goblackbears.com/news/2020/10/7/alfond-fund-umaine-athletics-receives-90-million-gift-from-harold-alfond-foundation.aspx

Part of a $110 million campaign, all privately funded. Likely means a new on-campus arena, new track/soccer facility, and heavy renovations to football.

[BigBlueMU]

Monmouth - probably the most obvious choice. I'm sure they'd leave the Big South for the CAA anytime.

Monmouth would jump on a CAA invite for full membership in a heartbeat! It would be a great marriage for both; with the CAA gaining more visibility in the NYC/NJ/Philly market. However, I still think the big sticking point are the facilities. Although they are nice, both football and basketball are way too small for CAA standards. There is also no way anytime soon West Long Branch approves an expansion to Kessler. I am starting to think there is a better chance of Monmouth being a part of a new conference during realignment (A-East, Yankee ??).

[mainejeff]

Far more than that... $90 million.

https://goblackbears.com/news/2020/10/7/alfond-fund-umaine-athletics-receives-90-million-gift-from-harold-alfond-foundation.aspx

Part of a $110 million campaign, all privately funded. Likely means a new on-campus arena, new track/soccer facility, and heavy renovations to football.

I guess that Maine Football is staying the CAA. Yeah....$110 sounds like a new hockey/basketball facility & renovated football stadium. It should be noted that the $90 million gift is the largest ever for a public university athletics department in New England....and the overall gift of $240 million to the University of Maine system is also the largest gift ever to the a public university in New England and 8th largest gift ever for a public institution of higher learning in the U.S.

[smilo]

Monmouth would jump on a CAA invite for full membership in a heartbeat! It would be a great marriage for both; with the CAA gaining more visibility in the NYC/NJ/Philly market. However, I still think the big sticking point are the facilities. Although they are nice, both football and basketball are way too small for CAA standards. There is also no way anytime soon West Long Branch approves an expansion to Kessler. I am starting to think there is a better chance of Monmouth being a part of a new conference during realignment (A-East, Yankee ??).

Welp, I guess New Jersey may finally be begging for a new football team as the Jets and Giants outduel each other for the #1 draft pick. Monmouth going from the upper half of a 1.5 bid FCS league to the lower half of a 3.5 bid FCS league is the bold move the state needs during these unprecedented times. I'm on board - New York City, welcome to the Colonial Athletic Association, your new football conference.

As a bonus for New Jersey residents - your kids will now also be applying to Elon University and the University of Richmond just to get out of the sprawling nightmare! (I'd add URI, but there are already some signs on I95 reading "Why go to Rutgers when you can go to Rhode Island?") What brain drain?

[OhioHen]

As a bonus for New Jersey residents - your kids will now also be applying to Elon University and the University of Richmond just to get out of the sprawling nightmare! (I'd add URI, but there are already some signs on I95 reading "Why go to Rutgers when you can go to Rhode Island?") What brain drain?

Rutgers has long been considered a safety school for students that would rather go to Delaware or one of the eastern Pennsylvania schools.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom. My original point was that CAA football has not been that stable, and it would be even less so if the AE teams left and the CAA responded by attempting to raid the PL. I also added my prediction that the PL's core-four would be sticking around together far longer than any combo of CAA schools. NY Crusader's list hasn't done anything to sway me.

But DFW Hoya is right in pointing out that the Yankee/A-10/CAA has been the Northeast's strongest conference since the mid '80s.

Will be interesting to see what the CAA does after the P-5 finally breaks away and that forever talked about G-5/FCS merger happens. Especially if it were to happen sooner than later and as bluehenbillik points out, while schools, particularly ones with small endowments, are making cuts.



Not in the FCS really. For instance ND State is in the midst of the greatest dynasty FCS has ever seen but do Clemson diehards know that? USC diehards? What about more casual fans? Doubt it.

That's too bad b/c I love FCS and can't believe how under-appreciated this entire level is. From ND State knocking off all those B1G and Big XII teams, to the amount of talent the FCS puts into the NFL, to the HoF icons who got their start at this level, I've always been truly stunned that more people don't care. But a P-5 break will give everyone else the chance to redefine themselves. Maybe, just maybe, enough people will be turned off by the P-5 and their semi-pro status to give the rest of us some more attention.

I don't know why people keep talking about this. It's never going to happen. The P5 have already broken away from the G5, just not on paper. The whole system is rigged. Look at the membership of all the P5 conferences. The only schools that have made the jump from G5 => P5 are Louisville & TCU. Boise State won a BCS bowl game and averaged about 12.5 wins / season for a decade and even they couldn't crack the glass ceiling. The whole bowl system is a sham too. This is how it works:

Good P5 teams play against other good P5 teams
6-6 P5 teams play against other 6-6 P5 teams
G5 teams play against other G5 teams unless you're the one lucky school that gets the ONE G5 bid amongst the major bowl games

And after all these stadium and facilities upgrades, do you think that G5 schools that spent all this money are all of a sudden going to be OK with playing in the same subdivision as Rhode Island, Indiana State and Houston Baptist? They won't be and will continue to throw dollars at the illusion of playing at the same level as Clemson and Alabama.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Monmouth would jump on a CAA invite for full membership in a heartbeat! It would be a great marriage for both; with the CAA gaining more visibility in the NYC/NJ/Philly market. However, I still think the big sticking point are the facilities. Although they are nice, both football and basketball are way too small for CAA standards. There is also no way anytime soon West Long Branch approves an expansion to Kessler. I am starting to think there is a better chance of Monmouth being a part of a new conference during realignment (A-East, Yankee ??).

Monmouth will probably one day in the near future be a solid all-sports addition to the CAA, which lacks a footprint in NJ. Their facilities are just fine. Ocean Bank Arena has a capacity of 4,100. The football stadium is small (<4,000) but is modern and away-side bleachers could be added to the far side behind the hedges.

[The Boogie Down]

I don't know why people keep talking about this. It's never going to happen. The P5 have already broken away from the G5, just not on paper.

From what I've heard it will definitely happen "on paper" and will definitely happen by the 2025/2026 seasons. Those same people have also told me the on paper split is why certain strong FCS schools haven't already made the jump to FBS.

Additionally, it wasn't long ago when all the college football talking heads swore that an FBS playoff was "never going to happen." Not just that but they each spent years-&-years-&-years explaining why (from overly long schedules, to an inability to fill up neutral site locales for the semifinals, to an inability to draw much of a tv following during NFL playoffs season, to the bowls themselves fighting against a playoff to remain relevant, to tradition, to my personal favorite,,, not giving the student-athletes enough time to study), it was never going to happen. So, we'll see.


And after all these stadium and facilities upgrades, do you think that G5 schools that spent all this money are all of a sudden going to be OK with playing in the same subdivision as Rhode Island, Indiana State and Houston Baptist? They won't be and will continue to throw dollars at the illusion of playing at the same level as Clemson and Alabama.

Yeah, I do. For many, the on paper split ends the same exact illusion you're talking about. Besides, who's to say some of the bigger G-5 teams would ever be on the same playing level as lower level FCS teams? Who's to say those bigger G-5 teams (like say BYU, Boise State, Houston, UCF, Air Force, Navy, etc., etc.) wouldn't figure out a way to break away w/the P-5? As for those that won't be making the cut (like UMass and UConn for instance), who's to say they wouldn't want to cut some losses and return to the same playing field as URI? Especially if they could save face by never "officially" dropping down to FCS. Again, we'll see.

[BigBlueMU]

Monmouth will probably one day in the near future be a solid all-sports addition to the CAA, which lacks a footprint in NJ. Their facilities are just fine. Ocean Bank Arena has a capacity of 4,100. The football stadium is small (<4,000) but is modern and away-side bleachers could be added to the far side behind the hedges.

Don't get me wrong, the facilities are beautiful and they do have the space and $$$ to add away side bleachers. However, for as long as I have known, the town of West Long Branch has fought the school on everything they want to do. I believe the original design for the Ocean Bank arena was for at least 8k capacity. That was shot down for years by WLB. MU can't even get lights on the field because of WLB. Unless there is a major regime change in WLB city hall, I'm afraid they will be stuck in this rut for a while.

[Sader87]

How does the Patsy League always hijack CAA threads? CAA definitely at a crossroads now that schools are faced with cutting sports/scholarship levels (the latter possibly effecting FB).....

As the scorpion said to the frog crossing the river: "It's what we do." xdrunkyx